The Wellness Scoop - Reasons for Optimism About Climate Change

Episode Date: August 25, 2020

Why should we be optimistic about the solutions to climate change? Why is positivity more likely to give us better results and what does the latest research show? We talk to Lily Cole about everything from rewilding to the power of technology, the role of food, the limits of the individual, eco-anxiety, conscious consumerism, green washing and how contradictory and imperfect many of the solutions are. Plus what Elon Musk thinks and how hard it was to follow Greta Thunberg’s advice.   Lily Cole: Who Cares Wins See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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And if you're like me and think a TFSA stands for Total Fund Savings Adventure, maybe reach out to TD Direct Investing. investing. Hi, and welcome to the Deliciously Ella podcast with me, Ella Mills. So I feel like my whole life is about podcasts at the moment. Last time when Sky was born, I really wanted to keep the podcast going, but I tried to do it with a tiny newborn when she was like six seven weeks old and it was it was quite a lot so I'm trying to record loads in advance so that we can keep going basically all year which I'm really excited about so I feel like I'm learning so much at the moment covering so many different topics and we've got really cool stuff coming over the next couple of months with incredible guests which yeah I can't wait for so I'm hoping you're going to really

enjoy that then I'm hoping I'm going to actually be able to take some real time off this time with baby number two which I didn't do with baby number one we're just trying to finish some building work at the house so I keep running to my sisters every time we record a podcast as well to record in her bedroom for quiet so yeah yeah, it feels all go over the next couple of weeks. And I know I mentioned last week as well that we've got new products launching. I'm so excited to say that they have now launched. So you'll find our dipped almonds, the chocolate dipped almonds and the orange dipped almonds on our website and in Whole Foods. And then they're coming really, really soon to Wait Waitrose to the Free From Isle as well as Planet Organic and Amazon UK. Our multi-grain flakes with toasted hazelnuts and

coconut chips and raisins are now also in our web shop so that's just www.deliciousseala.com and we can ship all across Europe and the UK we've got free shipping over 25 pounds as well and they're also in Whole Foods and coming soon for Planet Organic and Amazon. Same with our sea salt, black pepper and olive oil crackers. And our fruit and nut oat bars are just in Whole Foods right now. So any feedback on them, we would love to hear it. It's been like an amazing year for recipe development, our end. I'm very, very excited to hear what you think and equally excited to get into today's topic, which is based on one of my favourite books I've read this year. The book's called Who Cares Wins and it's just been a really actually optimistic, insightful, interesting

book to read over the last couple of months. It's given me a huge amount of food for thought. So today we're going to be talking about climate change and the future of the world that we live in. And I know that's a topic that, let's be honest, can feel pretty heavy and depressing quite a lot of the time. And, you know, please don't worry, we're going to be optimistic today because I know we all need that at the moment and we all need that this year. And today's guest, Lily Cole, actually really believes that there is actually huge reason for that optimism and pragmatism and a genuine sense of hope for our future. So Lily has spent the last few years

interviewing everyone in this space from Greta Thunberg to Stephen Hawking, Stella McCartney, Elon Musk, and the founders of Extinction Rebellion to really get under the skin of what's actually going on. And that's what her whole book, Who Cares Wins, is about. And it's just fascinating. It literally touches on everything from protesting to why following Greta's advice is actually really hard, the power of nature, rewilding versus huge technological advancements, lab-grown meat substitutes, greenwashing, conscious consumerism, and everything in between. So welcome, Lily. Thank you so much for joining us and for writing such a brilliant book

that has truly shone so much light on such a complex topic. I absolutely loved it. Oh, that means a lot. Thank you so much. Yeah, it was a lot of work. So every time somebody says that it gave them something, it makes me feel better. Yeah, I can see that. Honestly, I was going to say it's actually quite hard to know exactly where to start here, because the level of detail that you've covered and the number of people you've spoken to, the topics you've touched on, it's actually just so incredibly vast. And you've offered such a thoughtful overview of what's happening in the world right now and what we can do about it. But I'd like to start with, I guess, the ultimate concept of the book, which is the reasons that we have for optimism and changing our world. And why bother with optimism? And how do you find that optimism, especially right now when it feels sometimes a little bit hard not to sink into despair? I think the optimism that I seek and aspire towards arises probably in response to the fact that despair is so easy.

The information is often so overwhelming when you look at the climate crisis. And you also look at a lot of our social issues and the way that social and environmental issues are interwoven. And of course, there is a real reality to that. And then there is also the way that the media depicts what's going on that often tends towards the negative. And so it can be, I think, all too easy to become despairing and become upset about the status of things. And I think, for me personally, choosing to be optimistic, choosing to focus on all the positive solution based things that are going on, is one better for my mental health two I think more likely to actually create a positive outcome because the way we think and see the world becomes in a way

self-fulfilling prophecies because it impacts our behavior and the choices we make and so actually choosing optimism I think is more likely to give us an optimistic outcome and in the meantime it's probably better for our enjoyment of life. I really liked how you said that optimism needs to be humble, and that it needs to demand action. And that, you know, of course, like right now, the stakes are high, the challenges are complicated, and we can't pretend there isn't reason to worry. It felt like a very pragmatic approach. Yeah, it's definitely my vision of optimism, my version of optimism is definitely not a kind of, you know, let's just kick back and relax and everything's going to be fine. Apathetic version.

It's a kind of, no, we do have real challenges and real changes that need to happen. But we have the option to make those changes and we have the option to fix these problems. And that's what gives me optimism. So it's an optimism that comes from action as opposed from apathy. Can you give us an overview of what you've learned because as I said you've touched on so many different things and you've met so many different people one of the things for example that I thought was absolutely fascinating was the research around the idea of nature being the way to go and that researchers have said that there is actually potential to reforest a billion hectares of the earth, which is about the size of the US, which would then absorb two thirds of the additional carbon dioxide that humanity

has released into the atmosphere at a cost of 300 billion, which obviously sounds like a kind of absurd amount of money, but actually, relatively speaking, it isn't necessarily it's but I think you said it's about half the annual global fossil fuel subsidy allowance, and a lot less than the cost of technology like air capturing. And I mean, the US has just spent, I think it's 2 trillion dealing with the pandemic. So yeah, 300 billion is a lot for an individual to process as an amount of money. But looking at a kind of international government scale is not a lot, considering the stakes that we're dealing with. And also, if you're going to be really cynical about it, considering the actual economic costs of climate change. I mean, you have somebody like Mark Carney, who's the ex-governor of the Bank of England, has for the last few years

really been campaigning around the fact that the financial costs of climate change now need to be factored into all funds, all investment funds, all banks, because there are very real fiscal risks and fiscal costs to not dealing with the problem. I mean, I learned so much. And at the same time, I feel like I learned so much that I ended up feeling not that I knew less, but I feel maybe less sure of any easy answers. And I think that's probably the most important learning is that these topics are so complex that for any individual to think that they have it all figured out, or they can like provide a silver bullet would be really naive and dangerous. And actually, we need to create more dialogue and we need to listen to diverse

perspectives and remain open-minded as the data changes and the information changes in terms of how we deal with the problems. I think the nature-based solutions that you mentioned are probably one of the most inspiring and encouraging because it can feel really daunting when you look at the climate crisis and the risks and it feels like an impossibly challenging task. How do we change our energy systems? How do we change our transportation systems? How do we change our agriculture? You know, these are really complex, difficult changes.

And then you have something like nature and you're like, actually, if we just empower nature, if we just think about how we can rewild parts of the planet and give nature a helping hand, we have this miracle technology i.e carbon capturing machines that are trees peatlands grasslands that could actually be solving the problem for us and that actually turns out to be the most cost-effective way to just letting nature basically thrive a bit more and that will bring balance to the ecosystem of all of the kind of

problems that you explored what were the kind of solutions that stuck out to you as either quite scary in terms of where the consequences might take us and equally on the flip side the most inspiring and feel kind of the most plausible and gave you a sense of hope? It's interesting, probably all of, I'd say, the very technological solutions have both impacts on me. And I think technology has this kind of interesting juxtaposition, which I try and explore in the book, where in one hand, it has the capacity to do extraordinary things which feel game changing and may solve these problems. On the other hand, technology often brings with it inherent risks and unknowns, and then that can be quite scary also. So an example is geoengineering. So these big ideas of using kind of techno fixes to spray sulfur into

the atmosphere or putting chemicals in the seas as a way to try and rebalance the earth rather than rewilding and kind of letting nature do it. And those ideas are being increasingly researched because a lot of scientists feel like the stakes are getting so high. The international political response hasn't been adequate to mitigate the risks that scientists have been warning about for decades and that we may need some kind of big techno fix. But of course, it's a bit of an experiment um an interesting point actually you know musk made when i was speaking to him was that we have been in a way doing a kind of geoengineering experiment the last few hundred years the very fact that we've been taking fossil fuels out of the earth pushing carbon into the atmosphere has already been a geoengineering experiment and we're already seeing the consequences of that, that we're changing the atmosphere and

therefore the climate of the earth. Does that mean that we should do more geoengineering or that we should maybe stop geoengineering, you know, and step back a bit? I'd probably argue the latter, but obviously it's not just up to me. There are other examples in all other sectors. So in food, which obviously is your domain, I feel like technology is both incredibly promising, and also quite scary. So most scientists, there's kind of a general global consensus now, I'd say in the scientific community, that humans need to eat a lot less meat and animal products, regardless of the kind of animal ethics debate. But because of the climate debate, in order to think about climate change in a serious way, the impact of animal agriculture is considered either the first biggest or the second biggest

contributor as an industry globally. And technology is really promising because technology offers the potential without making some kind of dictatorship where everyone's not allowed to eat meat anymore which is probably quite politically unpalatable technology is promising us that we might actually be able to start making meat products without using animals whether that's lab-grown meat or it's companies like impossible foods i went to the ceo pat brown who are kind of making burgers the impossible burger that's molecularly identical to meat in most taste testings people can't tell the difference but it's made all with plants and so on the one hand i get incredibly excited when i look at that space and as a vegetarian myself for the most part for the

last 22 years i I mean, it really does feel like we're turning a corner where you're actually having fake butters that taste like butter or fake bacons that taste like bacon. And I've been testing that market for a very long time. So I can really see the transition that's happening. I mean, on the one hand, that's really encouraging. But there is also something a little bit scary about it, because what does that mean? Does that mean that we're going to end up with huge monocultures of soy and corn products to feed lab-grown meat instead of having regenerative agriculture that thinks about soil health and I try and explore those two perspectives in the in the chapter on food be interested actually given given your interest

in food what you took from that particular part of the book and the kind of technology around food right now? From my perspective, I find it very exciting in the sense that I think if we are encouraging people to take up a predominantly vegetarian diet, there has to be variety in that. And yes, we know that we need to eat more fruits and vegetables and things like that, but people really enjoy a burger and all those sorts of indulgences and delicious things. And it's really important that those are on offer. You know, you can't just eat broccoli. For me, I've found it very exciting finding like great vegan doughnuts and things like that. And so I think it's really brilliant to actually start to have options that feel like genuine options, as you said.

And I know like I've got lots of friends like my sister and her boyfriend have been getting I think it's the beyond meat ones and they've been making burgers with them and they love them and he loves them and he's not vegetarian at all and I think that's that offers us I completely agree I have a lot a lot of hope in terms of making this approach to the way that we eat feel much more available to everyone but then at the same time I think looking at looking at it as well, from my side, from a health perspective, obviously, everything needs to be in moderation and in balance. But I think a diet primarily made up of these sorts of things. I don't think we have the answers yet as to how good they are for us.

But we do know that ultra processed food isn't that good for us and so I find that quite interesting in terms of the balance of where we get to in terms of our food and again I feel like part of me thinks with our diet as well especially with the kind of health crisis that we also have that we need to go a little bit closer to nature and there's a huge amount of noise around very big companies that are taking us further away from nature into a lab so I think it's incredibly exciting on one hand but a bit nerve-wracking on the other but but equally as we as you said you know I think there's a huge call for primarily vegetarian diet and that's never going to happen if it doesn't feel like it

has availability for everyone and in order to have that it needs to have a real sense of diversity and that you've got a lot of options it's no good just saying to people you can't ever do this again and then not giving them a really viable alternative yeah I interviewed um as you'll know Alice Waters in the book who I'm a huge fan of and she represents the voice that's very pro and nature-based solutions and is quite skeptical of massive technology in food and where that would take us ultimately in terms of the environmental impact it's interesting your question about what what do i feel really positive and i'm both scared of and the fact that the answer may be the same thing right the same things that

i'm very hopeful about i and also slightly scared of. And I think that points to probably the contradictions that I explore throughout the book between what I describe as the profit-like approach to solutions and the wizard-like approach to solutions. I'm borrowing the terminology of a writer called Charles Mann who wrote a book called The Wizard and the Prophet, which I agree with and argues that basically the environmental conversation for a long time including today ends up polarizing for the most part between these two camps which is the wizards who believe we can kind of techno fix our way out of different challenges and the prophets who want to simplify and go back to simple ways of doing things in

simpler times and i think i'm able to really sympathize with both perspectives. And so it means that the kind of wizard-like approaches that are very promising are also slightly daunting because I can see it from both the wizard and the prophet's perspective, if that makes sense. Absolutely. And I think with that, it kind of raises an interesting question, which you also explore, which is the power of the individual versus the power of the world and of big, big corporations. And I thought what was interesting as well in the epilogue, as you're saying, the importance of actually taking solace in recognizing our own limitations as individuals. And ultimately, like to some extent, we do as individuals have to cede control to the global organizations and governments and structures that have

significantly more power than we all do as individuals. And I think sometimes, you know, you've got the concept of eco-anxiety at the moment, and I think it can feel incredibly daunting as an individual to look at these issues. And how did you see that playing out like what we can each do as individuals or within the companies we work in or you know within our own families versus globalization I think that's another kind of key tension that I've explored in the book and I've explored in the book because I explore it myself which is how responsible am I and how powerful am I? And by I, obviously, I mean, I as an example of any individual. On the one hand, much of the thrust of the book is based around the idea that we are actually all very, very powerful and maybe more

powerful than we realize as individuals, because we're all participating in this collective reality and we all have a role to play and that sometimes it can feel like decisions are being made far away by these kind of powerful players outside of our control whether that's CEOs of big companies or government ministers but actually the way that our political economic world is structured in 2020 individuals do actually have a lot of power would be my argument within those big structures so the biggest companies in the world are still totally dependent on their individual purchasers and consumers to exist and so actually choosing to spend your money on a company or not does have an impact when it's put together collectively

and the same obviously if you live in a democracy, which I'm lucky enough to, you know, in England, our vote and our voice politically is powerful and is meaningful in terms of government ministers' decisions. So a big thrust of the book is about that and about realising our own role and power. At the same time, recognising, and that's what I kind of reflect on in the epilogue, the limits to that and the fact that there is only actually so much we can do as individuals and it can create an

enormous amount of eco-anxiety and it has for me when you do feel personally kind of responsible for these big challenges that are largely out of our control so how do you balance those those two realities that the fact that we can be empowered whilst also we have to slightly let go of control and recognize that there is a kind of collective decision being made that we are only a small part of and we found it really interesting obviously on all things being relative of very small company of of dealing with this as well because there's so often you you want to make the best possible decisions you could possibly make. And then you come up against 700 stumbling blocks of the fact that so much of it's still outside our control. And I think, you know, packaging for us has been

the most interesting exploration there. But, you know, when we first started, we were, you know, more naive to the kind of realities of packaging and went with compostable packaging except that food safe packaging isn't home compostable and there's only I think two there may now be a couple more composting facilities in the UK which consumers have no access to the the packaging was then also not very food safe and so it kept opening and so then there was a huge amount very food safe. And so it kept opening. And so then there was a huge amount of food waste and food waste, as we know, is a massive contributor to climate change. And so, you know, ended up not doing it because it basically ended up feeling like a

marketing gimmick that actually had only downside in the sense that it ended up in the bin and therefore ended up in landfill and it created more food waste along the way but it's been things like that that I found really interesting to learn about because again what we need and what every other company needs is the government to subsidize composting facilities so that consumers do have access to it and that's I think been interesting for us on you know slightly bigger than an individual scale is how much you can really do and how much is obviously just completely outside your control and you're kind of sitting and waiting for change to happen. Yeah, I do increasingly feel like the political, like the need for the political side of this is just like immense and massive because it is. And I think there is an interplay i don't think you can expect politics to take kind of strong leadership on on the climate if there isn't a public appetite for that so every individual's care and action is really important

because it's a signal also to politics to to step up but we really really do need politics to kind of step up and lead the way because yeah we're operating in a landscape that's really complex really confusing um your example of like composting packaging is a really good one and there could be very simple changes just in terms of regulations taxes subsidies and rethinking those in a way that directs business in a positive way and those need to come top down from the government. It's hard to expect individuals to negotiate how we can compost food packaging better. And did you get a sense that that was happening, that that was on the agenda? I do feel optimistic. Yeah. And I think probably that's one of the reasons for writing a book about

optimism in this space is that I've been looking at these issues for half my life now so since I was kind of a teenager and it really does feel like things are going in the right direction I mean the science data doesn't you get scarier and scarier reports every year from the scientific community about kind of threats of climate change the politics isn't keeping up with the science and that is scary but from a political and also mainstream consciousness perspective and also business perspective it does feel like things are tracking in a positive way and that people are starting to take these threats more seriously I was in Davos at the beginning of the year at the time of the World Economic Forum and I hadn't

been for I went maybe six or seven years ago and it was just interesting to see the change that this year climate change messaging and environmental messaging was just everywhere, to the point that it was slightly annoying, because it felt like it could be greenwashing. But I actually don't think it was, I'm sure there were examples of greenwashing. But I think a lot of it was very legitimate, that it has actually really gotten deep into the kind of consciousness of big business and governmental thinking. Whether that now like actually goes into real policies is a different question. But I feel confident that things are pushing in the right direction. And one of the other things I found very interesting, which I also took a lot of comfort

in is the importance of being pragmatic. And you told a very good example. You were at, I think, Greta Thunberg's speech in Sweden and you had flown there and were intending to fly back and and felt very guilty about that on the back of her speech and so um decided to take the train back and I think you am I'm right in saying it took you about three days to get back you ended up having to take a flight at the end anyway and it cost you so much more yeah I mean I had actually before I'd gone to Stockholm I tried to take the train there and I'd researched it and then I'd emailed the organizers and it turned out if I'd taken the train because of work I had before I would have just missed her speech

so I was like okay well that's not possible because it was a two-day trip um but then I thought I could get the train on the way back because I did have time and so yeah I spent a good few hours like probably four or five hours. It was real effort researching the different routes that I could take back. And I found one that seemed the most sensible, which involved, I can't remember the exact numbers, but it was like four or five different trains, a bus link, a night in Copenhagen. And then I finally get back to London and I missed the last connection. And I remember being on the train when I missed the connection to Brussels and realizing what I'd

done. And I was sitting next to this German guy and I started chatting to him, trying to get his help to use like an online German app to try and work out the next train I could get back to Brussels. And then a few other people kind of chimed in that overheard us having this conversation and suddenly I had three people trying to help me figure out this train situation we looked at all the different trains and it just wasn't possible it's very clear that I wouldn't catch the last Eurostar back to London and then he very sweetly just ventured and he said well you know hotels in Brussels are really expensive why don't you just take a plane and he didn't know obviously that I was trying to avoid planes by doing this and he didn't even know where I'd come from two days before and it just seems so apt and such a kind of perfect summary of how difficult sometimes

it can be to try and make environmental choices and I put that in the book because it felt honest but it was honest not just in my own experience but just honest about the systems we're operating in and how frustrating it is that trying to do the more environmentally friendly thing not always but it's often much more expensive and much more time consuming and much less convenient and unless we address that unless kind of systemically and politically we think about how to make environmental choices more affordable and more available it's very hard to expect a kind of mainstream voluntary shift towards them. I know, absolutely. I remember being really struck by trying to make a conscious effort

with something like that and trying to take a train to a friend's wedding, which was in North Wales. We hadn't booked it that much in advance, but the train was something like £200. And you just thought well of course people are going to drive you know it's we're present being presented with impossible options and I think there's a real challenge in demanding things of people which actually just in that sense do not feel realistic or plausible in any shape or form. I was going to say I think food's a good

example of that as well because yeah I mean the fact that organic food costs more and is therefore seen maybe as a more bourgeois choice, just doesn't make any sense when you think about it, because organic food is genuinely cheaper, i.e. it's not destroying the soil, i.e. long term, it makes much more economic sense. But what we're not doing is we're kind of not costing in the long term costs of products products at the beginning so there just isn't really a kind of financial impact if you're destroying soil and even though there is genuinely i like governments and taxpayers will be dealing with that and probably you know you know in our own generation or a children's generation but it's not being costed at the beginning so it kind of gives us kind of false ideas of of choice and false ideas of cost i I literally couldn't agree with you more. And I think for me, that's been probably my biggest frustration today in what we do at Delicious Cielo is a frustration over price. You know, our aim is obviously to try and get more people

having plant-based options and more people having natural options and stopping, you know, having such a kind of focus on ultra processed food. And it's been really interesting that because there is a complete demand for us to be the same price as a Mars bar or the equivalent, and it's impossible. But the expectation is that that's what it costs, because that's what those sorts of snacks have always cost. And it's absolutely fascinating to start to explore that because, you know, there's a reason things are so cheap. You know, in that case, obviously, it's made from ultra processed foods, and it's made on such a kind of humongous scale. And it poses sort of no health benefit whatsoever.

But it has been a very interesting thing to explore because there's definitely frustration from people that healthy food costs more and the expectation of the low price. I find very interesting. And obviously, as someone that follows a plant based diet, I also find it incredibly frustrating as well. When you see an advert where you can get four steaks for a pound 50. And that's not right. That doesn't point to a world in which farming is being done in any shape or form or responsible way. But that's now what we expect. And we're making it so difficult for people to make other choices as a result. And it is incredibly frustrating. But on a personal level, you have made very interesting and actually really big sacrifices and gave up a kind of incredibly lucrative career. And there's some interesting stories about you exploring kind of who you're

working with and, and saying no to very profitable jobs because of it. And I wondered if you could tell us a little bit more about that, because's actually you know obviously you had an incredibly successful career as a model and so you you know we're in a privileged position to be able to make choices with your work but it's it's a really huge thing to to step away from yeah you just put it in like such blunt terms for like that no one does how does that feel saying no to all that money yeah I mean there is a very occasional moment where I'm just like Lily you're an idiot you know like you could have had things so much so much easier but those are very very rare moments because for the most part I feel really good about the choices I've made you know that like money is

really helpful right there's no point denying that in our reality no one wants to be stressed i grew up in quite a poor environment worrying about money is really not healthy and not positive and i wouldn't wish that on anyone so i'm not going to be naive and say like money doesn't matter of course it matters somewhat within our existing reality right now whilst remembering it's all made up but at the same time there's been tons of studies that show that you only actually get happy to a certain extent i.e there's like a limit to which money can make you happy and then at a certain point your kind of happiness just plateaus and of course happiness is impacted by so many other factors thereafter like once you've met

your basic security needs you you know have a kind of safe place to live and you have food on the table. And once you kind of alleviate that stress, then what makes you happy? Is it spending time in a meaningful way? Is it having positive relationships in your life? Is it doing a job you love? There are so many other factors.

And I guess for me, focusing maybe on those other factors, mainly like doing a job I love and I feel proud of and spending my time in a meaningful way and investing relationships has been probably more of a priority than just making money based decisions around my career. that I guess had this kind of political consciousness when I was younger, influencing decisions I was making around, you know, what I might eat or buy. And then I couldn't help but then start thinking about the companies I was working for as a model and the impacts that they were having on the world. And I didn't feel comfortable turning a blind eye to things. And so I just tried to then once I became more aware um work with companies that I felt proud to work for and that had kind of positive stories because I think

that actually trade can be incredibly it can be incredibly negative and destructive but can can conversely be incredibly positive and empowering and be a real like yeah source of good in the world and so I tried to focus on being part of those stories and then weirdly ended up founding my own companies which was never really a plan to be a business person but once I started doing that I thought oh this is a nice idea or this is a nice project and um started putting energy into what's now called by I don't know like entrepreneurship to give it a fancy word it was a kind kind of collision, I guess, of like my politics and my interests meant that I moved my life in a less financially viable direction. It's true though. I mean, of everyone we've interviewed, I think a sense of purpose and

reason for being and an ability to stay present, which is so often anchored in something like that has roots in happiness like nothing else ever does. And I think it is interesting to acknowledge that because a lot of people would see the opportunities that you had and be surprised by not taking them. But I can imagine you've probably ended up a much happier person as a result, which I think is really interesting to reflect on as well. And I think just talking about that, what kind of role do you feel like conscious consumerism can play in climate change? Yeah, I think it's super, super powerful, but it has its limitations. It's kind of how I came into these debates was through kind of thinking about conscious

consumerism, because I was working in fashion and therefore capitalism and thinking about how things are made and how we spend our money and I came to see that like money is the most unfortunately but probably the most like powerful contemporary universal language that we have that really does kind of shift the way things flow and the way decisions are made and so if you can think mindfully about how you use your own kind of source of money how you earn it how you invest it how you spend it then you're helping to direct redirect the flow of that power in a different way and I still really do believe that and I and that's probably as I was saying a source of my

optimism that in the last 10-15 years there has been it feels a real sea change in terms of the appetite for conscious consumerism and the options that we can buy into that said the idea that we could just like shop our way out of crisis is of course nonsensical and there are lots of environmentalists who are quite critical of the potential for greenwashing this kind of like conscious consumerism narrative that we can just buy more compostable balloons or electric cars or whatever you know buy more stuff that's just made in a better way and that's going to solve all of our problems and actually probably we need to buy less and think about new business models that are about buying less and find new values george mumbio very kindly read one of the chapters in the book kind of to give me feedback

and that was his main takeaway and his point was just like he really doesn't believe that we can kind of shop our way out of crisis instead need to like question like have deeper questions around questioning growth maybe I'm not these are not his words I'm kind of putting in my words but not questioning capitalism entirely but aspects of it like the idea that we need to keep consuming at this pace. Again, the book is full of contradictions and tensions, and that's probably one of them, is what are the limits in terms of capitalism and consumerism's ability to solve this problem or not? I really liked how open and honest you were, though, about the fact that there are so many tensions and that there are so many conflicts and that there is actually not a simple solution and whilst there are lots

of reasons to be optimistic it is overly naive to say you know you could never take a flight again or you could stop eating meat and all our problems will be solved because it is significantly more complicated than that and I think sometimes the debate is made oversimplistic to some extent. And I know I certainly find that frustrating. I know we've had some very heated arguments within our families and family WhatsApp groups. You know, I've definitely myself felt very frustrated by the number of people I knew, for example, who were taking part in the climate strikes that were inspired by Greta Thunberg, but who were the least vegetarian people I'd ever met and who had no interest in becoming vegetarian. And I struggle with that. I find it really ironic when we know it makes such a big difference and people aren't necessarily willing to make that commitment. But I think it's so true. It's because it's such a kind of

complicated, nuanced issue filled with 101 contradictions. And I think there's no way to solve it or move forward with it without acknowledging that and that there is no way to do it perfectly. And I guess I take a lot of comfort and optimism in that, that as an individual, there is only so much we can do as you're saying and that there is no way to solve the problem in a perfect manner at this point do you think that's true yeah but I also agree with you that and I look at that a little bit I have a chapter on protest and at the end I can't remember the exact quote but it's something around arguably the like what's most important of protest is how we protest against ourselves in our own

lives because it's very easy to just go out on a march or post something on instagram and join a kind of quote movement in name and yeah that is important because again it kind of directs political will but actually taking the responsibility home and realizing that our own daily choices are like an inherent part of the situation we're in and taking responsibility for those, I say, is more important, even if that's harder to do. but if you do really care about the climate crisis you should probably research then what you could be doing in your own life to lower your impact and you might then discover that eating less animal products is a massive way to do that so just I guess taking responsibility for learning I'd say is the key whilst remaining open-minded to the fact that yeah there are diverse ways of thinking about the problem and we are constantly learning collectively as we get new data about how to solve these issues. Yeah, that was the big debate. And with my family and Matt's family, it was Matt and I both saying, how could you, someone was upset, you know, that someone else hadn't given

everyone the day off to go and protest. And we were saying, but it doesn't make any sense. If you want to protest, surely you've got to make a change in your own life. And then the argument was, no, it's up to the government. and I thought that was really interesting of I find it interesting that that conversation of what we can do as individuals and by no means are we perfect but it was um it really struck me as as confusing to some extent so I wanted I wanted as we kind of come towards the end to finish with with reasons for optimism as you said because it is so important and I wondered if you could share with us you you know, the top pieces of advice you were given from everyone you interviewed, or the kind of top takeaways that you learned that made you feel like,

you know, what if we want to make a change as a global world, we can make a change, and that there are reasons to genuinely feel positive and optimistic about our future i'd say that the power of nature that nature is kind of extraordinary and we have the answers right under our feet if we just decide to kind of give nature and wilderness a bit more breathing space we will find a lot more balance in the planet um i'd say that it's important to if you do if you do worry about climate change it's probably important to try and have these conversations and to make your voice heard even if that's just in your like friendship group or your family or it's writing to your mp or it's thinking about how you vote because politics does have a kind of instrumental role to play and we need I guess I like politicians to to realize that there is a really big public appetite which I think is is becoming clearer and clearer and then I'll maybe end on the Audre

Lorde quote I give in the book which loops back to kind of personal action because I think it's a really beautiful quote and I'll read it because I've got it in front of me she writes the personal is political you cannot corral any aspect within your life divorce its implications whether it's what you eat for breakfast or how you say goodbye and I think that's really beautiful because it it's like kind of gentle and humbled it's about the small choices we make every day and just realizing the importance of those. And the example of what you eat for breakfast obviously points to conscious consumerism and the way we buy and live. And I just love the example of how you say goodbye. The fact that actually, how kind we are to each other, as wishy-washy as that may sound, like the values that we hold in ourselves and

collectively, and the type of kind of communities and societies that we create and want to be part of are actually a really intrinsic part of this. Because if we shift our values towards kindness and community, firstly, we might end up being happier as individuals. But also then we may shift away from the types of behaviour patterns that are inherently destroying the planet. So I think it's a bit abstract, but I do look, explore in the end, mental health and kindness and relationship to nature and how those deep shifts maybe are the kind of biggest keys to solving this problem and may make us happier at the same time. We did a very interesting interview actually a couple of months ago with a journalist, Lucy, who'd been doing a whole project after a difficult period of depression herself about the power of nature on our mental health. And there's some incredible science behind it. And I definitely

left that feeling like it gives, again, more respect and a desire to protect the natural world as, again, you start to just appreciate it on all these different levels. I think yes so often like talking about the environment can feel really like sacrificial and boring and academic and jargony and political you know recycle more or compost or eat less meat which is they're all bits of important information but actually if we reframe the question it's like we're all alive as human beings in this version of reality that we know for a very finite amount of time. And how do we actually want to spend our time on this planet?

And how do we actually want to have meaningful lives and be happy? Asking those questions may end up both pointing us in a direction that starts to like solve our environmental challenges, because we'll live in kind of more harmony and balance with the natural world but may also point us in a direction of increasing happiness because the economic growth and technological progress we've seen hasn't actually produced a lot of extra happiness when you look at the data and so what are what is a meaningful life and how can we move towards it, I guess, would be the question I would want to focus on. Absolutely. And I think it also points you exactly to be, you know, as cheesy as it is, but it's about being happy where you are. And I think we definitely live in a culture where there's a lot of when I buy this or when I look like that or you know when I can do this I'll be happy and so much of

that leads us to to buy more and more and more and more and more that that we really don't need or aspire to buy more and live bigger and I think it is very interesting as you start to appreciate yeah just the small things and yeah her stats on you know even um that delicious smell of freshly cut grass and the rain and on grass and things like that actually has like a serious neurological effect on the brain in such a positive way and I found that really really interesting and and again incredibly inspiring and positive to start to think again about trying to find those sources of happiness in those small things in flowers in grass and actually I think as you said these things can

sound wishy-washy, but actually they can be incredibly powerful as well. So powerful. And actually, in a funny way, quite political, because it's resisting capitalism's insistence that we need to be buying new stuff in order to be happy, you know, and realising that actually, yeah, happiness is available to us right now. It's a way of maybe seeing the world and finding peace in ourselves.

Yeah, absolutely. Well, Lily, thank you so much for sharing all your time today. And honestly, I couldn't recommend a bit more. It is sometimes really hard to look at the world as it is today and at the problems we're facing, especially from a climate change perspective, without just feeling incredibly negative. And I think sometimes that can feel quite off-putting in terms of really getting involved in the conversation. But actually, I certainly closed the book feeling much more positive and optimistic about the world than I have in a while.

So I really, really appreciate you sharing. Yeah, lovely to talk to you. Thank you so much. And we will be back again next Tuesday. Thanks, everyone. Bye. from Libsyn ads. Choose from hundreds of top podcasts offering host endorsements or run a pre-produced ad like this one across thousands of shows to reach your target audience with Libsyn ads. Email bob at libsyn.com to learn more. That's b-o-b at l-i-b-s-y-n dot com.