The Wellness Scoop - The Extra Scoop: Sleep 101

Episode Date: April 10, 2025

Sleep is something we all do every night, yet many of us struggle to get enough of it. With so much conflicting advice, it can be hard to know what really matters. To help us separate fact from fiction, we’re joined by Dr. Lindsay Browning, a chartered psychologist, neuroscientist, and sleep expert with a doctorate in insomnia from the University of Oxford. Dr. Browning breaks down the science of sleep, debunks common myths, and shares practical strategies to help you improve your sleep quality. In This Episode, We Cover: How much sleep we really need and why it matters The consequences of sleep deprivation on health The impact of sleep tracking devices, late-night scrolling, and caffeine on sleep quality The gender gap and sleep Practical tips to improve sleep and wake up feeling more refreshed Dr. Lindsay browning is the author of Navigating Sleeplessness: How to Sleep Deeper and Better for Longer Live Show Tickets - https://cadoganhall.com/whats-on/the-wellness-scoop-with-ella-mills-and-rhiannon-lambert/ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Okay, flights on Air Canada. How about Prague? Ooh, Paris. Those gardens. Gardens. Um, Amsterdam. Tulip Festival. I see your festival and raise you a carnival in Venice. Or Bermuda has carnaval. Ooh, colorful. You want colorful. Thailand. Lantern Festival. Boom. Book it. Um, how did we get to Thailand from Prague?

Oh, right. Prague. Oh, boy. Choose from a world of destinations, if you can. Air Canada, nice travels. Welcome to the Extra Scoop, our expert-led bonus episodes, giving you the need to know on the topics everybody is talking about.

That's right, from gut health to sleep, hormones to skin, we are cutting through the noise with top experts, so there is no fluff, just facts. Exactly, it's all quick, practical, evidence-based advice to fit into your busy lives. So this is the Extra Scoop. Let's get started. As our listeners probably know by now, our Extra Scoop episodes are all about taking

those topics that feels everybody's talking about and just breaking them down for you so that you are left with expert-led insights that leave you feeling informed and empowered when it comes to your wellbeing. And this week, we are talking about something we all do every night or hopefully do, but many of us still struggle with and that is sleep. And there is just so much advice out there on how to get better rest from sleep cycles to smart rings, blue light blockers. It can be very overwhelming, hard to know what really makes a difference. How much sleep do we actually need? What's more

important, total hours or REM sleep? And we needed someone to help us separate fact from fiction. So we are joined today by Dr. Lindsay Browning, a chartered psychologist, neuroscientist and sleep expert with a doctorate in insomnia from the University of Oxford. So welcome Lindsay, thank you so much for joining us. No, it's brilliant, thank you for having me. Oh no, it's such a pleasure Lindsay. We've been looking forward to this episode

as people that don't always get the sleep that we need and not by our own doing. It's really helpful to have you on today. So let's start with that golden question you must get asked all the time. How many hours of sleep do we actually need? So for a working-age adult, the recommendations are, according to science, that getting somewhere between seven to nine hours a night is what we need to be getting regularly. But of course, what's really important is that's a range. It's not that everyone needs to get eight hours. I hear this all the time. People think they should be getting eight hours, but that's just the average. Just like we're not all the same height, we're not all the same weight, we don't have the

same sleep needs. So generally speaking, people who get somewhere between seven to nine hours sleep a night tend to be healthier and happier. So that's the kind of range we're trying to aim for. I guess you must be kind of thrilled in your line of work that sleep has become such a hot topic. It must be sort of music to your ears to hear us say sleep is everywhere. And it does feel over the last five to 10 years, something that I think we all took for granted that was pretty unsexy has become pretty cool, pretty fashionable, quite a trend. It's quite odd to say sleep is a trend, but I think it is a trend we could probably all

agree. I guess it would be helpful to understand, in your opinion, why are we all talking about it? What are the top line benefits of getting that amount of sleep? So, if you think about it, when we fall asleep, it's a waste of time, or at least that's what people think, because we could be getting things done. So sleep really needs to be important. Otherwise, why do we do it? Why has humankind evolved? Why do we sleep? And actually, with growing research and over recent years,

the overwhelming science has proven how massively important sleep is. It is not a waste of time. When we sleep is when our body repairs, we regulate hormones, process emotions, and people who don't get enough sleep just have such poorer health and mental well-being that it's really, really important. We need to be prioritising getting a good night's sleep in the same way that we prioritise eating well, exercising well and doing all those other things that we are now, as well as sleep, realising are important as well. MS. I mean, obviously it helps you perform your day-to-day task with a spring in your step. I

know I certainly feel when your head is heavy and you don't feel like you're performing your best that it can be extremely tricky. But are there any, I don't want to go too morbid on the second question going in, but I worry Lindsay because I see things everywhere. It must be my algorithm, probably because I am sleep deprived a lot of the time because of my children at the moment, that I'm aging faster, that years are being knocked off my life because I'm not getting the sleep I need. I mean, what element of, I don't know if I dare ask, what element of truth is there? And that's a really great point because obviously my entire job is to help people sleep well. But as happy as I am that the sleep is now mainstream

and every magazine newspaper going is talking about sleep, and that on the one hand is fantastic. But if you're not sleeping well, either because you have insomnia or because of your lifestyle, you have children, you've got caring responsibilities, you've got a really busy job, you can't get enough sleep. And being thrown down your throat, all this negativity can just make your anxiety huge and just make everything seem worse. Yes, sleep is important, just like eating well and exercising. But if you are having, I'm sure, new parents, they don't get the time to eat as healthily as they maybe did before children. They don't have the time to exercise as regularly, and we don't freak out about those things. We want to understand that

if we can prioritize our sleep, we want to choose to do so, but not to become so stressed and anxious that we have to get 79-hour sleep, otherwise crisis will befall us, because that's just not helpful. The truth is, yes, sleeping well is good for you, but as humans, we have evolved to survive with little amounts of sleep for periods of time. Otherwise, every new parent on the planet would have cancer and dementia and diabetes and heart disease and all those things. We need to see it in the realms of context. Like I said, if you are in charge of your schedule and you're not prioritizing your sleep and you're just scrolling through your phone for an hour or

two before bed, I really want to encourage those people to not do that because go to bed early and you're going to humongously benefit from that. But if you can't go to bed early because you have to put your kids to bed and do all the other things you have to do, that's okay, we'll just survive. And when we can change our lifestyle and we have time to prioritize our sleep, we can improve it then. I love that take on it.

I think that's incredibly constructive. And in terms of looking at that positive spin on it, I would love to get a bit more specific on why sleep is good for you. What are those core bits of research, of evidence on those health benefits, that motivation for people tonight to put their phone away an hour early and get that extra bit of sleep?

You can't argue with science. People who get enough good quality sleep, so people who regularly sleep seven to nine hours per night, tend to have a reduced risk of depression and anxiety. They tend to have a lower risk of heart disease, stroke, certain types of cancer, dementia. They have a lower risk of diabetes, obesity. Their immune system is going to be stronger. Their memory is going to be improved. Every aspect of your life. If I was here to be selling a supplement that you could all buy that had all these benefits, everyone would want to buy that supplement. But the great thing is I'm not selling anything. Sleep is free. You just need to go to bed and sleep and you're going to do all of this great good stuff to your body.

It's so interesting and something that I find in the nutrition line of work a lot as well over the years has definitely been what foods are there that link to my sleep and is it true there's melatonin and cherries, all these sorts of headlines that you see. What elements of truth are there within this? Yeah, so if we don't have enough magnesium, for example, our sleep is likely to not be so great. If we have any kind of deficiency, basically, iron deficiency, vitamin D deficiency, if we don't have the right amount of nutrients and vitamins, then our brain can't do the processing it needs to do at night, especially magnesium, for

example, is really topical. Just taking a generic magnesium supplement, if your magnesium levels are low, is going to help. With food, things like tryptophan, we use tryptophan to turn into melatonin. Melatonin is our sleep hormone. It helps our body to know that it's time for sleep. Yes, tart cherry juice tends to contain melatonin, certain types of nuts. Milk contains tryptophan, as does smoked salmon, turkey. All of these things contain an ingredient which is helpful for sleep. However, the quantities that they contain isn't likely to be hugely significant

for our sleep. If you have chronic insomnia, for example, the solution isn't going to be having a cherry juice drink or having a turkey sandwich. But those things, they may be beneficial somewhat. They're certainly unlikely to be harmful, but we need to look at what's really causing the problem and fix the main issue rather than just looking for little easy tweaks around the side. It's just like if you want to lose weight, you kind of have to have a calorie deficit and maybe do some exercise, but no one wants to hear that. We all want to hear, oh, well, is there not just a cream I can buy and rub on my tummy and they'll get a six pack?

That would be great. And the same with sleep. Like we need to put the effort in, we need to do the right things. And there aren't really any quick fixes to getting a good night's sleep. It's doing the good stuff that's most important. That's such wise advice. And I think it's so interesting when we're talking about a whole range of totally different topics, advice is so often the same, which is there is no quick fix, we all wish there was. How brilliant would that be? There's a few things I wanted to pick up on

from what you were just saying, Lindsay, but one of them was, what are those core ingredients to helping our body, our brains get a good night's sleep? Well, in order to sleep, we need to be a couple of things. We need to be calm and relaxed and we need to be tired. So those are two things that we can really work on during the day. So if we are stressed and anxious, and I'm sure we've all had periods of time when we've been stressed and anxious, and if you have an exam tomorrow or you've got some health worry, you're unlikely to sleep as well. Because when we are anxious, our body becomes physically, we have increased cortisol, adrenaline,

our heart might be racing, our brain might be worrying, thinking of all these worries. When we are anxious, it's much harder to sleep because when we are asleep, in essence, we're kind of vulnerable. When we were cavemen and we were asleep, we were very, very vulnerable at that point. So in order to sleep soundly, we need to feel like the world is okay, that we are safe. And if we feel anxious and stressed, then our brain isn't really going to let us fall asleep as easily because it's wanting to stay awake to deal with the problems. So making sure that you are calm and relaxed, and you can do that in many ways. You might have heard about yoga, slow deep breathing,

reading a calming book. Basically anything, anything at all that you find relaxing is going to be beneficial for sleep. And of course, if you have a big life stress and that goes away, your sleep is probably going to resolve. Maybe after that exam has happened, your sleep will go back to normal. That's one part. The second part is being tired. This is where, especially when someone's struggling to sleep well, they can start to self-sabotage without realizing it. If you haven't slept well the night before, you might be tempted to not get up at your intended time and sleep in late or go to bed really early or have a long nap to make up for sleep. All of those things are going to take away from your sleep drive, your sleep hunger, which means actually

then you won't sleep as well the next night. So being active during the day, getting outside, getting natural daylight to help your circadian rhythm know the difference between night and day, and having a regular bedtime, wake time will help you to feel tired enough and ready for sleep at night. So we need to be relaxed and we need to be basically tired and sleepy enough for us to sleep well. It makes so much sense. Everything you've just said is like a reminder to why was I feeling like an insomnia last night? Oh, I had a lot on my mind. I'm sure lots of people can relate to that listening or what's confusing though is you hear about naps and things. And also there's lots of headlines at the moment, ones that I kept sending to Ella saying, look, it says women need more sleep than men. What's the truth? Oh, you're nodding. Great. What is the truth behind that?

So that's really interesting because there's a lot of, I'm sure in your field as well, we know as people in the sort of wellbeing and health industry, there's a big disparity often between women and men. So women do tend to, according to science, need a bit more sleep than men, which is interesting. Studies say between like sort of 11 to, according to science, need a bit more sleep than men, which is interesting. Studies say between 11 minutes, 10 to 20 minutes, something like that, that women actually do genuinely probably need a bit more sleep than men. However, women tend to have more insomnia than men. We tend to have poorer sleep than men. So despite the fact that we need a bit more sleep, our sleep often is worse. And that's for a number of reasons. Women are 40% more likely to have insomnia

than men, studies have shown. One thing is hormonal fluctuations. As women, we have hormonal fluctuations when we are menstruating. Every month, our hormones change. Before that, we go through puberty, or when we get pregnant, when we stop being pregnant, when we go through the menopause. All of these hormonal changes can affect sleep. Society at the moment, we're still in a place where women do tend to have more caring responsibilities, either for children or for older family members than men do typically. Of course, that's going to add a level of stress and also a level of perhaps not being able to get to sleep and have that wind down

time, relaxed time before bed that we want to have. Yes, as women, be proud. Go to bed a little bit earlier than your partner and don't feel guilty about it because science shows you probably do need a little bit more sleep than men and yeah, all the hormonal stuff we just have to deal with really. It's the fun of being a woman. I'm going to use that every night to my husband. I'm like, you know, the jobs of just like checking on the kids or putting stuff in the backpack for school the next day, et cetera, that we do before bed. I'm going to say, sorry, I can't, I actually just scientifically need a bit more sleep than you. So, yeah, that was handy. No, but jokes aside, there's obviously,

as we said, sleep is so trendy at the moment and as a result, it's become this enormous industry and you've got all your kind of sleep tracking devices, for example. What is your take on the commercialization essentially of sleep? Do you think there's benefit in obsessing over those numbers and data points? Sure. So yeah, like I said, I'm thrilled that sleep is mainstream and that people are starting to take it seriously because lots of people before were actively ignoring sleep, fighting sleep and sacrificing it thinking it was pointless. But the commercialization of sleep does worry me a lot because in my field, I work with people all the time who are desperately unhappy and stressed about their lack of sleep. They are vulnerable and

they are spending a lot of money on anything that promises to improve their sleep. Most of these things aren't necessarily scientifically proven to help sleep. And if you've got money to burn and you want to try out the latest gadget, then go for it. However, if you don't, then you're just going to get even more stressed and anxious because you're like, oh my goodness, I've spent so much money on all these things and my sleep is still bad. With sleep trackers, on the one hand, they can be really great because they can be an independent way of tracking your sleep duration and your patterns and giving you a bit of an insight into, okay, what is my sleep really looking like at the moment? Just like having

a set of scales can help you to go a general gist of your weight if you're wanting to pay attention to that. However, if you have an eating disorder, weighing yourself regularly is really unhelpful and it's going to cause huge anxiety. The same thing with sleep trackers. If you are really worried about your sleep, then paying so much attention to these sleep trackers can just cause you to be so anxious about trying to perfect your sleep. It's even got a name. It's called orthosomnia. Orthosomnia is an insomnia caused by obsessing about sleep through tracking your sleep. I want people to understand that sleep trackers, whatever ones you get, they use movement data and heart rate data, generally speaking, to track if you're awake or asleep. But they are not infallible. When they tell you which

stage of sleep you're in, because we have light sleep, deep sleep, REM sleep, these sleep trackers, they're just not as precise as polysynchrography, which is used in clinical studies of sleep. If you are basing your worry about the fact that, oh my goodness, last night I only got 53 minutes of deep sleep according to my wearable sleep tracker, it is highly unlikely that that was actually diagnostically true. But it's a gauge comparing night by night. It can give you a little bit of feedback that might be interesting. But if you're starting to worry, oh my goodness, I'm not getting enough deep sleep because my sleep tracker says so, it's really unlikely

to be that accurate and you might start worrying about something, but frankly isn't even true. It's such a common thing that we see and I think the reliability of the data is really important to question. Ella and I actually both went to a health scan a few weeks ago, which I think was actually pretty accurate, but it's just like at the gym. You get those things you stand on or they scan you and they'll say, oh look, you're this percentage of body fat or you're this. They're all bound to be off to quite a large degree probably in accuracy. But I think something that people are using this tech for now is also to try and understand the sleep cycles. So there's a lot of talk about REM sleep

and how much of it we actually require. Is it rapid eye movement? Yeah, yeah, so REM sleep, REM sleep, stands for rapid eye movement for sure. And that's because at that particular part of sleep, and we have different parts of sleep that may have kind of different jobs and our brain looks different

in these different parts of sleep. And REM sleep is where your eyes beneath your closed eyelids will move rapidly. If you see somebody, if your partner is in bed and they're asleep and you want to look at them, which might be weird, but anyway, if you look at their eyelids, you can see if they're in REM sleep because you can see the eyeball itself moving fairly rapidly from side to side beneath the closed eyelid. REM sleep tends to typically be when we dream. Our brain is most active in REM sleep. It looks very much like an awake brain. With sleep trackers, they can make fairly good guesses. Now,

heart rate tends to be a little bit higher and a bit more erratic, for want of a better word, when we're in REM sleep because our brain is probably having dreams and that kind of thing. In deep sleep, our heart rate is the lowest. It's very, very slow. The sleep track is going to track which different part of sleep you're in. The point is, A, it's not that accurate necessarily, and B, it doesn't really matter how much time you're spending in these different parts of sleep because there is very little we can do to influence that. The point is, we can't just decide, oh, I want to get more REM sleep and not change the others because we can't, when we're asleep, just deliberately try and increase one particular part of sleep.

If we're not getting enough REM sleep, which to be fair, in order to know that for sure you'd have to have a polysomnography to get the accurate data, the best way of increasing your REM sleep is just to get a bit more sleep. People really start to worry about which is the best part. I should be getting more deep sleep or more REM sleep. But again, they are all important. I get calls all the time from people who want to see me to say, Dr. Browning, can you help me because my sleep tracker tells me I only get X amount of deep sleep or I only get X amount of REM sleep. How can I change that? And they think that that's the only important part and it's not. They are all important. Light sleep, deep sleep, and REM sleep are all important.

They all have different jobs. We can't know for sure which is the most important part, really, because frankly, we can't conduct studies when we remove one part of sleep. If we stop people having REM sleep, we'll just stop them having sleep. So they'll be sleep deprived. So it's very difficult to know, you know, which is the most important part of sleep. And actually, they're all important. They are all important. We need to get REM sleep and deep sleep and light sleep. And to get more of the sleep that you need, you need to sleep for longer. That's basically the easiest way of understanding it. I love that because I think one of the things that Rhi and I talk about so much, I think it's probably the crux if you distill all the conversations that we have down into one thing,

is this focus on simple. And just like you're saying, sleep really matters. And that's great. And it's so important just like what we eat really matters, just like moving're saying, sleep really matters, and that's great. And it's so important, just like what we eat really matters, just like moving our bodies, managing our stress, they all really matter. But this obsession of perfectionism, we can get away from. And it's really distilling it down, like you're saying, is just keep it simple.

Try and do things to actively de-stress before you go to sleep to help your mind, and then try and go to sleep actively de-stress before you go to sleep to help your mind, and then try and go to sleep a little bit earlier. It's almost as simple as that, to some extent, from what I'm taking from you. Stesha Yeah, definitely. Of course, some sleep trackers can pick up some issues, like for example, there's something called sleep apnea, which is where somebody repeatedly stops breathing during the night. Some sleep trackers can pick up on that. That's really helpful because if you do have sleep apnea, obstructive sleep apnea is when

there's an obstruction and your throat closes up or your tonsils block the airway. Then you can repeatedly stop breathing through the night, and each time that happens, your brain has to wake you up with a big gasp of breath just to restart the breathing process, and then you go back to sleep again. People with sleep apnea, they might be sleeping for eight, nine hours, 10 hours, but still wake up exhausted, and they might not really understand why am I so tired? It's because the sleep quality is terrible. Sometimes sleep trackers can identify things that we aren't aware of. But if your sleep is kind of normal and there isn't another sleep disorder going on, then we don't need to obsess too much about which proportion of the night we're spending in these different

parts of sleep because there is very little, like I said, we can do to manipulate it. That's so reassuring to know. I think it's just focusing on trying to get the hours in that you possibly can and create the good sleep environment. It's interesting, my father actually has sleep apnea and he has a special box he has to sleep with. And I think it can be really worrying for people. There's so many different conditions, aren't there, that are linked to this sort of thing. And I wanted to very quickly, I know we're running out of time, but I just wanted to say caffeine, just very, very quickly before we round off and finish this episode. A lot of people will report to us in the clinic, oh, I feel like I sleep absolutely fine, but I'm tired all the time.

And sometimes we have found, I don't know if this aligns with your research, Lindsay, but they are having a lot of caffeine throughout the day and they don't realize its impact in the quality of their sleep at night, but they feel like they sleep just fine. You know, like there's always that person that will have a coffee after dinner at 10 p.m. What really is the impact of caffeine and sleep in that way? So caffeine affects our sleep in a couple of ways. We have during the day, basically have a sleep drive that kind of builds up sleep pressure. We produce adenosine and throughout the day we produce more and more and more of this. It kind of builds up and up and up. The more we have, the more tired we feel. When we have caffeine, if you have a double espresso, then what that

does is it stops your brain from being able to tell how tired you are. It blocks the adenosine receptors. You can't tell that you're tired, which is very helpful to be fair if you are a two-hour driver from home and you need to get home and not fall asleep at the wheel. In which case, having a double espresso and then a quick nap in the car for 10 minutes, get back in the car, the nap will have given you a little bit of taking the edge off that sleep and the caffeine will have kicked in so you're not feeling the tiredness and you can make it home safe. However, when you get home, caffeine doesn't just stop being in your system. Somewhere between different reports of like three, five, six, around six hours after your last caffeine, half of it

is still in your system affecting your sleep. So when you've had a lot of caffeine, you might go to bed and just struggle to fall asleep because your brain doesn't realize how tired you really are. And also, how caffeine can affect sleep is by – I think it affects deep sleep. It might affect that we maybe don't get as much or as deep sleep as we would do without the caffeine. But there are lots of different individual tolerances and some people, they metabolize caffeine really quickly and maybe the caffeine for them isn't a huge problem. But yeah, whenever I have clients, if they're having a lot of caffeine,

it's the first thing I'll say to eliminate or pull right back to earlier on in the day and see how it affects your sleep. People think that, especially if they've not been sleeping well, they'll load up on loads of caffeine to help them through the day. But then, of course, your next night's sleep isn't going to be great as well and you're just perpetuating the problem. I have to ask two very quick questions. I know we're running out of time. The first one is there on the caffeine side, a rough amount to have and a rough cutoff time. And the second just quick one, because I know our listeners will want to hear it, is what

about the impact of late night scrolling on your sleep? So caffeine, as a general rule, a couple of cups of caffeine, I think that's the advice, there's a specific, the European health, they've got a list of, so a couple of cups of coffee is within the realms of normality. And as a general rule, cut off about not after two o'clock, maybe midday to two o'clock, I would say, try and avoid having any caffeine after that point. Decaffeinated coffee, to be fair, the advances in the last 15 years, decaf coffee now is so much nicer than it was 10, 15 years ago. I remember when I first graduated, decaffeinated coffee was horrific. Although there are still certain things in coffee, but try and have decaf after two o'clock.

Sorry, and your second question. Late night scrolling. Yes, of course. Right. So the effect of being on your phone late at night and affecting sleep, we've all heard this loads. Now, there's a number of reasons it can affect your sleep. First of all, if you're in bed on your phone, you're then using your bed as a place for being awake. And actually, there's a thing called stimulus control, which means we sleep much better when we keep our bed as a sanctuary for sleep and intimate relations. So if we just keep our bed for those things, then when we go to bed, our brain goes, oh yes, our bed is a place for sleep. It's a calming place. Whereas if you're used to using your bed for those things, then when we go to bed, our brain goes, oh yes, our bed is a place for sleep.

It's a calming place. Whereas if you're used to using your bed for doing work, replying to emails, scrolling through social media, then when you decide to go to sleep, your brain goes, no, no, no, we should do a bit more of that stuff on the phone. Your brain doesn't really know what our bed is for. Just like when COVID hit and people were suddenly doing work on their kitchen table or the dining table because we didn't have offices back then, when you're used to eating at the kitchen table or the dining room table, people would just start eating because this is the place they eat and people would start to put on weight because you've associated your dining room table or kitchen table with eating. So we really want to associate our bed just with sleep. That's an association thing. But also, the bright

light from your screens isn't great for sleep. Now, whether the impact of that is as great as was previously thought, because previously people thought, oh my goodness, the blue light from screens is absolutely the worst thing you can do before bed because it impacts your melatonin production. Maybe actually the light levels from a phone maybe aren't quite as damaging as we once thought, but they're still not great. I would say if you do want to use electronic devices close to bedtime, at the very least, enable night mode, which reduces the brightness of the screen and takes the light spectrum from a blue frequency light to a

warmer tones, which is less impactful on your melatonin. But the main, main, main reason that using your devices before bed isn't great for sleep is because you're going to forget to go to bed because you're scrolling and you're scrolling and you're looking at the next video and the next video and the next video. And then before you know it, you know, oops, it's half past midnight. I meant to go to bed at half 10, but I've been scrolling through these videos for the last two hours. It really is a good idea to put your devices down before you go to bed, for all those reasons so that we're not associating our bed with doing something else. We don't have that light

exposure and most importantly, we're not going to be so drawn into the next dopamine hit of the next 30 second amazing Instagram reel that we forget to go to sleep. Oh, Lindsay, I feel seen. This is basically me the last week. I have to get off my phone. I need to put it in a drawer. Thank you so, so much for helping us all dissect sleep for us on the Extra Scoop. I know that Ella and I, it's something that we discuss a lot. I actually particularly found the gender divide really, really interesting. And like Ella said, I'm going to be using that one. I'm going to bed earlier tonight and I'm going to try my sleep hygiene.

Lindsay will link everything below in the notes so everyone can know where to find you, the amazing work that you do. And thank you for coming on The Extra Scoop. Thank you. Thank you guys so much for listening to us on The Extra Scoop. We are a community-based podcast. We want this to be helpful for you. So any requests, we want to hear it.

Absolutely. Let us know which experts that you want on The Extra Scoop and we will see you on Monday. Can't wait.