The Wellness Scoop - The Rising Cost of Healthy Eating, Beach Body Anxiety & Peak Optimisation

Episode Date: June 22, 2026

This week, we discuss one of the most important reports in UK nutrition, revealing that healthy diets remain out of reach for many families while unhealthy foods continue to dominate our food environment. We also explore the rise of sleep anxiety, why body image concerns are stopping young people from enjoying everyday experiences, and the Steven Bartlett controversy that has sparked a backlash against wellness culture, health trackers and the relentless pursuit of self-optimisation Send your questions for our weekly Q&A to ⁠⁠[e-mail]⁠⁠ For more from Rhi and Ella:  Order your copy of Ella's new book: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Quick Wins: Healthy Cooking for Busy Lives⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Order your copy of Rhi's new book: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠The Fibre Formula⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Sign up to ⁠Rhitrition+⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Welcome to the Wellness Scoop, your weekly dose of health and wellness inspiration. And as always, we're both here as your host. I'm Ella Mills. And I'm Riannon Lambert. And after a decade in the wellness industry, we know how overwhelming and confusing health advice can be. And that's why we're both here with our podcast to cut through the noise and make healthier living, simple, fun and personal. I have to say, have a very old sleeping dog on my feet. And he's being so sweet. But if you hear a little dog action, guys. That is my very old Cocker's manual who is going, I know, he's going a little bit mad. Anyways, Rie, what is coming up on today's show other than my

slightly old and mad dog? Today, we have got a very big show actually. We're discussing the new broken plate report and the alarming state of our food system here in the UK. Then we're moving on to sleep trackers. Are they actually making our sleep worse than why one in for Gen Z adults, avoid the beach, and the Stephen Bartlett backlash and whether we have actually reached peak optimization. Plus, when does healthy become unhealthy? So Ella, what a show. I actually kind of forgot what we were talking about today, if I'm completely honest, but now I remember it. Guys, it's going to be quite a chatty show, I'm going to say today. The broken play report probably less so, but I feel like we have a lot of personal opinion here

and I'm very excited about it. And we've had a really busy morning. Ella and I, I know there's always different things going on in the morning. I'm surrounded by scaffolding, so apologies in advance for me there as well with any bangs in the background. I'd much rather have a sleepy dog that needs cuddles than the scaffolding I've got. But Ella, what have you been up to this week? I'll tell you what, Rhea, I'm just back from the gym. I have been exercising a lot recently. And I'm just feeling so good for it.

Lots of like 20 minute, 30 minute, nothing kind of really hardcore, but very consistent. And I've been very consistent, kind of on and off, obviously, for the last like nine months. And I really feel like my back is stronger. It feel like my posture is getting better. I feel really good. I'll tell you that. But what have I been up to? First of all, guys, amazing news.

Hot off the press as of yesterday. Social media ban. A serious social media ban. ID checks under 16s. Late night scrolling, looking like it's going to be stopped. I mean, I think this is a million miles. past what either of us, or really, I think, what anybody expected, and it's very, very different to the noises that the government had been making when they really were very against any intervention.

Interestingly, lots of people saying this is, you know, maybe Kirstama trying to create a positive legacy because I think the general consensus is not really particularly impactful government. Anyway, it's whatever reason it's happened and there's been this crazy U-turn, it's unbelievable news. And I am so thrilled. We were so happy to see it. And I have to say, my entire social media feed yesterday was just filled with the speech that he gave, everybody giving and voicing their opinions. There's always two sides to everything.

And I'm sure for current teenagers that are this age, it must be extremely hard to have been exposed to social media and then suddenly have this ban come in place. But for those like Ella and I who are parents of children that are younger and this is going to hopefully protect in the years to come, I got emotional, Ella. I was welling up when I saw, you know, the parents of those that sadly their children have lost their lives. And social media being the main cause, they were all sat there on the BBC News feature desk and they were all celebrating. It was very emotional. I actually feel very emotional about it as well. And I have to say, I feel exceptionally grateful. I don't think parenting a teenager is not easier the best of times.

But, you know, from everyone you talk to, I think parenting a teenager in the age of social media, and the comparison culture and all of the things that come with it is incredibly difficult. And I just feel really, really lucky. Honestly, with the help that we have been given by having this taken out of our hands, same with smoking, taken away for our children. I think it's a gift. And we'll talk about this a bit in the Broken Plate Report. But it is a gift of parents, I think, to bring in some of this legislation.

I'll tell you one cool thing I did really. I love this. On Friday, my daughter, who's in reception, her teacher was like, oh, we love having some of the children's teachers in to chat about, like their jobs and what they do. One of the moms is a dentist and came to talk to them about their teeth. And she was like, come and chat to them about what you do and teaching people about healthy food.

And then it ended up being like reception year one year two. So many children. They were so cute. And we read the belly bugs book. Yay. We has recommended it so many times. It is absolutely amazing and talked all about our belly bugs and how we have to feed the belly bugs.

And it's unbelievable. And like one of this reception teachers was saying at lunch yesterday, you know, some of the children like, I didn't want my menstrual. And she was like, well, you've been. fed you? What about your bugs? And then they like gobbled them up. Anyway, so that was very cool. I really enjoyed that. I love that. It just goes to show. I think there's ways of framing conversations and we're moving well past that old boiled bit of carrot or broccoli that as children, Ella and I were definitely faced with. But we're the same, aren't we as adults? Like, I don't want to

be told you've got to do this. I'm like, why do do I need to do this? It's like eat your five a day. Cool. Over 99% of population. No, we need to do it. We don't do it. Don't just tell people to do it. explain like this is why it will help you to do it. And I think it's really interesting when you when you give that to people because I find that I know for me when I changed my diet, it was when I went and I read all about, okay, well, this is how energy it's made. This is how your brain is fired. And this is how your body works. And so it needs these vitamins and these minerals. And you're like, oh, okay, cool. I'm suddenly so motivated to make properly delicious or make lentils delicious. Because I understand that I really need it as opposed to being told. Like, eat your vegetables.

to make their growth. I don't like them. I think we're definitely at this crossover point. As a generation on a whole, I think if you're a millennial, you are or were one of the first generations exposed to in many walks of life. Let's explain the why. And I think previously we were just told, this is right, this is wrong, black and white, yes and no. And we're opening our minds a bit more. And that includes how we eat our vegetables. And Ella, you've been meditating. So actually, you have been busy. Oh my gosh, turning into a monk day by day. Silent retreat is coming. Oh my God, yeah, one day, one day.

Actually, do you know what? Someone emailed us at the wellness scoops. Tell me about some places to go. But actually, lots of those ones are 10 days and it's a bit much, obviously, at the moment. But do you know, I've been, so I've run my Zoom meditation and breathwork. And the focus is really like community and just helping people find a slice of peace in their life, essentially. Anyway, I can't tell you how much I enjoy teaching it. It's like such a highlight along with this of my week.

But there's like 50 people in each class at the moment. just love it. That's so nice. Anyway, if anyone ever wants to join, I send the links out every week in my sub-state newsletter and we normally do 12-30s, 12-30s, midweek lunchtimes and then Sunday evenings. And it is bliss. Absolutely bliss. It's exactly what I need in my day. Yeah, read, tell me about you. We've just been busy at Reitrition on a whole. I'm finishing up a big written project, which I'll hopefully be able to share soon. But with the campaigning side of things, there's a lot of lot of movement in the food space for children. I've mentioned on here before, but I'm really throwing a lot of my weight behind work that we're doing alongside the Food Foundation and Vegge

Power. So that's keeping me very, very busy as well. It's actually the US Pub Day of Fiber Formula today as we're recording. Congratulations. So anyone in the US? Yeah, you can finally get your hands on the Fiber Formula. And then it's the menopause journey on the Retrition Plus community that I have. Honestly, Ella, I have been really. reading people's experiences and we've got a lovely group chat that comes alongside this. And I have cried. I'm just going to be honest, I've cried because it just feels like we're really all in it together.

And I know that the women paving and carving the way right now by sharing their experiences and speaking out and the education that we are able to provide at Retrition Plus, the eight-week course is hopefully helping. And then we're going to launch the food freedom course very soon. and that would be a four-week nutrition psychology journey as well. I will really have to keep everyone posted on that because that's something we get so many questions about. But no, look, why you do what you do, isn't it?

It's absolutely amazing. Meaningful week, everybody, for both Ella and I. So talking of meaningful, Ella, let's do the headlines that matter. Yes, let's. And also I have to say, we want to be in the loop with your campaigning and how any of us can support you as well as we go into that because obviously children's nutrition is absolutely vital for a healthy population as a whole as well.

So please keep us updated, as I know you will. But Broken Plate Report, this is huge. Guys, if you were listening last year, first of all, thanks for staying with us. But this comes out every single year. This is from an amazing organisation called the Food Foundation, who reads them to work with. They're absolutely fantastic. And they produce this report every year,

looking at the state of the cost of food and healthy food and the gaps that we see between different, households in this country. It's a very, very important piece of research. I'm going to hand over to read, to talk through the headlines of it. I'm going to be honest. We're going to move. End of the episode, it's going to be chatty. I think that's going to be fun. This is, please don't turn this off. It's really, really important. It's not fun. It's actually dire. And as a result, it's incredibly important. It is dire. I'll reel off a few of the stats. And Ella, I'll let you discuss the affordability factor actually as well. I think we could both

dissect this quite well, but the reason that we're having a hard time in the world is many different factors, but we have to face that families with children in the lower income group in the UK currently would need to spend 85% of their disposable income just to meet the standards that we have here in this country, the eat well guide, which every country has its different standards. You may remember, we've discussed the American food pyramid before. We've discussed Scandinavia's different eat well criteria. And healthy foods remain twice as expensive per calorie as less healthy food. So I think there's always that big debate. Oh, it's cheaper if you just cook. Actually, it's not anymore because of so many factors that, you know, we could go into.

But there's lots of wars in the world. There's lots of reasons that food costs are going up, demands on population, agriculture, global warming, all those sorts of things. I don't want to be a doom and doom and gloom. Concerning for me as well, because I feel like teenagers are a forgotten group, Ella, is at 95% of teens consume more free sugars than recommended. And then for children, only one in 10, children's breakfast cereals on the shelves are high in fiber, while one in five are high in sugar. And there's now a nearly 20 year gap, which we've discussed from the headlines before in a healthy life expectancy between the most and the least deprived communities. You may recall Ella and I discussing different boroughs in the UK in London. So Richmond being one of those that's

are affluent and they had a better life expectancy than those that perhaps lived in a different borough in London. And I think it's really, really important that we don't dismiss this report because we had a similar, equally damning one last 2025 in January. Yeah, and that's what I really wanted to pick up on there and thank you for that, really, is that when we looked at this last year, so the exact same report, same data inputs, just a year ago. You know, we were, you know, We haven't moved on a huge amount, you'd think, in a year, except we have. So if we look at the report from 2025, it showed the most deprived fifth of the population in the UK would need to spend 45% on their disposable income on food to afford the eat well

play, as we said. But that would rise to 70% for households with children. Well, we just talked about the fact that just one year later, it's now 85%. That is an absolutely staggering jump. and obviously if that trend continued, it's already impossible. 70%, 85%, it's even more impossible for an interveter word. But obviously, if we see this same continuum, same kind of chart, then it just becomes absurd as a concept.

And I think that's a really, really important thing. We're seeing this inflation hit food so badly. And I know everyone will notice it on their shops. I'm sure lots of you are feeling that as well. but the impact it's having on making healthy eating plausible for people is huge. For everybody as a whole, healthy eating, healthier foods, it's the same. It remains almost twice as expensive per calorie and that's the same as it was last year. So sort of generally awful but because of those small shifts in price incrementally that has added up to that, that significant rise for people in lower income groups.

So it's incredibly concerning. And this is why Ella and I wax lyrical about being. and pulses is one thing because some of the stats we have was that if you're buying pre-prepared plant-based alternatives they are 56% more expensive per calorie and than the equivalent options, the more unhealthy options, I would say, or the meat-based ones. And there was a quote. I was, you know, it was an LBC News, Ella, and I was listening, I think it was the day this report came out. And one of the presenters, I think it was James O'Brien, was reporting that it's just, insane that we can buy a chicken-based meal for two pounds and expect that to be nourishing

and quality food for us. Whereas the healthier options, and he's quite right to say it, that contain the beans and the pulses if you're buying it prepackaged rather than making it at home, as we've got here, it's 56% more expensive. And then the unhealthy food, that's what dominates the price promotions, Ella. And you'll understand all of this. And you could explain it a bit more, but we've got 40% of all food, non-alcoholic drink promotions, the foods that are high in fat, salt or sugar basically, are just more expensive, are the cheaper options than the healthy options? This country's got it all backwards. Yeah, and in that note on promotions, I mean, generally speaking, what that is, is that unhealthy foods, foods that are made less of, like,

actual food and that also then have very, very long shelf lives. They have, really high margins. So they have scope to be able to do, you know, buy one, get one free, you know, buy two get one free, whatever, all of these different offers because they can afford it. Essentially, they've got massive, massive room, generally speaking, in their margins. And the real challenge that people have when you're creating healthier options or it's just like a single item is generally speaking, these things are much more expensive to produce. And so you just don't have that same margin. Like I would imagine that the margin that our supermarkets make on a broccoli is much, much lower than the margin that they will make on crisps. That allows, yeah, these really deep

promotions. And also it's a kind of mechanism where these supermarkets now run on promotions, people expect them all the time. You know, they shop by promotion. You go to the category and you're like, oh, what's the offer on biscuits today? And then that's how people shop. So it's a huge sort of, yeah, consumer man. And then, you know, we see fruit and fudge account for just three percent of advertising spent. That's because like you think right, if you imagine now like bring to the front of mind five massive food brands, I think you'd be thinking like Heinz baked beans or Heinz tomato ketchup or like Cadbury's. Yeah, Cadbury's dairy milk or like Walker's, someone with a crisps or something like that. I feel like these are the brands that we would be thinking.

Or like Jaffa cakes, Diet Coke or those are things. Garlet apples or anything like that. These are mega brands, right? These are multinational brands. They have. have these multi-million pound marketing budgets. Can anybody think of a fruit and veg brand? Like, they're not like brands. They're just products as they should be. But they're like Tesco own brand most of the time or, you know, whoever own brand. And so, yeah, it's just not, it's not marketing because you don't, you're not trying to get people, you know, all of these big companies that are always trying to get themselves front of mind. It's like the Coke Christmas advert. You know, they're trying to get Coke to be at the front of your mind.

And let's be honest, Ella, that's a legendary advert. I mean, holidays are coming. Everyone knows it. Excellent ad. Yeah. And that's all about exactly putting the brand front and center. And, you know, the budgets just aren't there for the fruit and veg. So it's a kind of margin and sort of company thing.

Anyway, there might be people listening who work for companies that make fruit and veg, like produce and sell. So if you, you know, please, please tell us your experience in it as well. But that's my experience with it. within the food industry. And also what then happens is big companies, they have joint business plans for supermarkets. So it's all like, how do we sell more? And I think the other thing to say is that supermarkets in this country also,

although they're enormous, their margins are tiny. And so they also need these companies or they'd all go bust. So it's a very, very complicated situation. It's not as simple. If they all just stop selling these products tomorrow, they probably all go bust. So then we have no food system. So it's very, very complicated. Well, we'd be going back to corner shops, but equally those are closing down left, right,

incentives. No one can afford to have their own business anymore. It's a very difficult time. And what is also very concerning especially, and it's been on the news a lot recently, is the infant and toddler food market, because of course, always UPF packaged foods also make up a high percentage. And what's scary is that 74% of baby and toddler snacks still carry, you know, front-of-pack claims. And they all do have medium or high levels of shows.

sugar, they're not healthy items, a lot of them, Ella, that are being marketed towards children that are being sold. So our food environment at the moment that we live in is driving the health of our nation and we cannot, you know, step away from that fact at all. Interestingly, though, there are more guidelines coming in about what can be sold to babies and toddlers and a lot of products being upaged. So that's quite interesting again, shows these things can be done. Anyway, but you read this and you just think, first, of all, you know, for anyone struggling with including all these foods in their life, clearly it's a structural issue. And I think that's a really important point. But second of all, I think,

you know, everyone in's personal advocacy for change is incredibly important. It really is. Like we do need huge wholesale change. There needs to be pressure on governments. And you see what just happened with social media bands. Like these things, you know, we've just seen it with smoking. These things can be done. It is completely possible, complicated as it. it is. And so I think that conversation just needs to keep going. And that's why reports like this are really, really important. And it does have in here healthy, we've talked about this before, but healthy life expectancy, not life expectancy, a whole that hasn't really changed, but healthy life expectancy is now at its lowest level since around 2013 to 2015. So yeah, we're really,

really going backwards. Well, the outlets that are targeted at those people that are in the lower demographics that are really suffering from these statistics here is that, So one in four outlets in the UK overall of fast food. Now, we know that these should be occasional items, but they do become everyday items when you have a low budget. And that rises to more than one in three outlets in the most deprived communities. And this is where we're going wrong. I mean, you'll have heard me go on and on about the fibre crisis.

We've only 4% of adults getting enough. But when we talk about children, 86% of children aren't hitting the fiber targets, we're consuming too many UPS. And the entire food landscape, 100% percent. needs to change. So I think we can round it up there with it just being it's not black and white. Like we said at the beginning, there's always factors. And like Ella said, supermarkets have to make money. These small fast food chains are probably family-run businesses sometimes. They need to make money. So where do we break the circle? Yeah, it's a very complex

circle to break. And as I said, people like, we just shouldn't sell it. It's like, well, we can't just stop selling it overnight because retailers can't afford to do that. And we need retailers. to buy the healthy items too. So, yeah, it's very, very complicated. But let's watch the space. Okay, headline two is quite interesting. I saw this in the Times. Why Gen Zeders?

Is that how you said? Do we think Gen Z is? I would say Gen Zee because it's American. But yeah, I guess over here we should say Gen Zedders. Gen Zedders. Okay, why Gen Zedders? Like me, avoid the beach. A quarter of young Brits feel insecure about being seen in swimwear.

I felt that my whole life, Ella. But equally, I don't actually like the beach because I don't like sand sticking to my feet after the water and it gets in all my bags and I cannot bear it. I am actually more of a pool gal as well. We really don't live life on the edge. My boys love the beach. My boys love the beach.

One of the girls feels the same about sand as we do. But no, I do like the beach. A nationwide survey of 15,000 adults in the UK found that 82% of Britons feel embarrassed or self-conscious about their bodies. 63% said that those feelings affect their daily lives. 39% said they never speak about these feelings with anyone, which really made me feel this was important for the wellness scoop. And then among Gen ZZ, however, we want to call it adults,

24% then said as a result they avoid going to the beach, which is where the headlines come from, even though the actual study itself is the nationwide survey that we don't feel secure in our body image. Yeah, and I just think, you know what, as you said really like, this is a, I don't want to say it's kind of a tell as old as time. Like I don't think there's anything crazy here, but I just feel ahead of summer, heat wave hitting. I just think it's important to say it's a very sad statistic, but, you know, four-fifths of us feel embarrassed or subconscious

about our bodies. So if you are in that cohort, please don't feel alone in it. I think the really concerning stat as well is that almost, you know, over a third of people don't want to talk to people about that. And actually, it turns out it is actually very normal to feel self-conscious about your body. So I think we've got to talk about it. Let's just put a little bit of emphasis on why everybody here in the UK also perhaps may also be feeling self-conscious. And this isn't detracting from the psychological components of this type of survey, but we are covered up most of the year. And then summer suddenly hits, which is why there's always this big press jargon around that time of year. Yeah, be body ready. Because we get ready for what, six,

eight weeks of the year of sun and then the rest of the time we're in jumpers and trousers. And that's a complete separate side note to how we're feeling about our body image. But it just stems into once again, we're not the healthiest nation we could be. And that also probably impacts our mental health massively. There's so many facets just conversation of which direction it could go. But the fact we're not speaking about it is really worrying. And the trend that we discussed before with going back to size zero and always different sorts of things circulating. It feels like we don't belong anywhere and we don't fit in our

bodies and any type of ideal that's portrayed in the media and that's worrying. It's a very good point. I actually think you're so right though. It's funny. It's like obviously when we had the last heat wave a few weeks ago, you know, before that it was horrible. Last week it was literally pouring with rain all day, every single day. I was freezing. I was like back in the winter coat. It's like December and now it's going to be 30 degrees again. And so it is, you are as you right, you're like super covered up and then suddenly you're like, to stand in a bikini in front of everyone. Probably not quite so dramatic as that.

Most of us aren't doing like bikini competitions, but you get the gist. Anyway, I just think it's, you know, I think we've all felt that way. It's completely normal or all feel that way at points. But I agree. I think it's, I don't know, it's hard to say that the online world in general,

and I don't just mean social media, I mean like a Daily Mail online or any of the rest of it where we just see loads and those of images of people's bodies doesn't make it worse. As I said, like, I've been going to gym more and, like, feeling great for it. But now my whole algorithm whenever I go on is, like, you know,

how to tone up in six weeks and, like, how to do this? And I'm like, I don't want to do that. I just really fed up of having hunched over posture. We don't see everyone's shapes here, do we? That's what I mean is that if you live in a warmer climate all year round,

you're exposed to different body shapes, I think more because you will be wearing less and around. lots of different body ideas, whereas here you're just exposed to that algorithm. Yeah, and it's very, it's just super unrealistic, isn't it? And then, as you said, at the same time, there's the kind of celebrity size zero return that's, you know, very, very, very dominance is really hard to miss. And then if you start thinking that that's normal, then you're not going to feel great.

I mean, if I was looking at that all day, every day, it doesn't make me feel great. Especially as we age. And I think there's this very strange, as we've discussed a lot, anti-aging kind of of culture comes down to muscle mass, cellulite, body fat storage, but especially for women, we go through so much and so many different phases, and this is what we were discussing on the menopause journey, is the fact that when you've got celebrities in their 50s, 60s, going through menopause, who appear on the outside, the aesthetic of not having an ounce of body fat and all these different things. Yeah, that's one of the most common concerns that women have

as their changing body as our hormones fluctuate. We don't have many role models that are out there existing today. I think it's the same for the men and it leads us back to that conversation we had on the manosphere, you know, how toxicly shocking that is for men as well. So this and a social media ban, thank goodness, because maybe that will take a few teenage minds off body ideals when they are going through that hard time. I know, but don't we maybe all need it. So look, you are not alone.

it's a very important thing to do, but if you are feeling like it's affecting you, it's so important to talk to someone, just talk to a friend. And I have to say the thing that I have learned, because everyone knows I'm on my, I was about to say my woo-woo journey, but, you know, my more esoteric journey at the moment. And I, you know, do lots of courses and all the rest of it. And, you know, but you often talk about why are you here? Like, what got you interested in mindfulness or anything? And people will always talk about, you know, going through a hard time.

And it might be grief. It might be burnout and... Yeah, work. there's many, many facets, health issues, like so many different reasons. But I just feel what I notice time and time again. And, you know, we're chatting to people all the time. It's like everyone's going through something at some point. And no one is alone in that.

And I just think actually what's interesting is when you say to someone, I'm struggling with this. I think what you find more often than not is they're like, oh my God, me too. Thanks for saying it. Yeah, 100% Ella. And like we said, friendships are very difficult. to navigate in life as well. And there are pockets and communities in different places. But I think listening to the Wellness Group is a very good start because we'll try and take you out of your head for that

one moment and focus on proactive things we can do, be it breathing, be it walking, the social interaction we're all missing. Okay, we are going to take a quick ad break. And then when we get back, we are going to go into our deep dive on the era of optimization and is it over? Okay, welcome back. Right, what is our third headline today? I think it leads really nicely on to the fact we're starting to notice that all these texts and gadgets may not be so good for us. So are we obsessed with a perfect night's sleep? You might actually be making it worse, Ella.

It was an interesting piece this week looking at something called Orthosomnia, which is essentially an unhealthy preoccupation of achieving perfect sleep. I had it when I was getting none with babies, Ella, that's for sure. So Orthosomnia was a lot of. first introduced by researchers back in 2017. So it's been around nine years now. And it was used to describe people who had become so focused on improving their sleep data that they were spending longer in bed, repeatedly changing their routines and becoming increasingly anxious about getting a perfect night's sleep. And the irony there being that all this focus on the different

behaviours were actually making insomnia and sleep quality worse. And I think when this was first being discussed, it was seen as this quite niche phenomenon. But obviously we'd seen over this last decade, this crazy rise in sleep trackers and all of these different devices that people are wearing all the time. So you've got sleep scores, recovery scores, readiness scores, all these different terms that the various different tracking devices use. And they become part of an everyday conversation. Like I remember when the aurora ring got popular Kim Kardashian and Gwyneth Paltrow were having like a public debate on like their readiness score. Oh, were there? I miss that. We should dig that out. We should dig that. That's an archive conversation.

Yeah, exactly. And who was more ready for the day? Yeah, so it's the idea like comparing those numbers with friends, using them, I guess, as like, instead of saying to yourself, how do I feel today? You're like, these are my data points. So I'm just going to let this tell me how I feel. Anyway, I think it's interesting because I think it extends way past sleep. It preys in our adaption and our biology to be our best versions of ourselves massively. So there's a big wellness loop and circle.

It's why we buy supplements, why we buy track. I feel like we want to learn so much and discover so much about ourselves, but to our own detriment that it becomes a fixation. Because if you think about it, for most of human history, we just accepted they were good and bad times. And that's kind of what happens with our sleep. And I think the more that you suddenly focus on it, like imagine one night you wake up feeling,

you woke up feeling great, but then you discover actually because your aura ring or your tracker says you didn't, get a good night's sleep, do you then behave differently the next day? Does that initiate a behaviour change for the better or for the worse? Yeah, exactly. That is so interesting. And if we look at it in the UK, between 35 and 46%, so that's 20 to 25 million UK adults have a tracker. Really? Yeah, interestingly, with young adults, so that's 18 to 34. Oh my gosh, not a young adult anymore. I know. Welcome to my world. I'm older than Ella by about two years, year and a half.

Nearly 407% wear a tracker. So almost half of young adults have one. Women, slightly more proactive trackers overalls. Yeah, so more popular with women. Anyway, it's so interesting, I think, to see just how popular this has become. And lots of experts basically weighing in on this conversation of orthosomnia, saying this kind of is a bit of an issue now where exactly, as you said, you become increasingly uncomfortable with fluctuations.

And that was one of the things that I think was really important to pull out from this, which is like as humans, emotionally physically, we do ebb and flow. Like you know, you have a day where you feel great, you have a week, a month, a period where you feel gray, and then you'll have a day where you don't feel so good or a day where you don't sleep were so well. And there's no rhyme or reason. Like maybe it's the moon. I mean, to that extent, like who knows why?

Like there's nothing have to be, it's almost like we just think. we're robots and everything has to be so similar. It's like we're not robots. We're living, breathing, very, very complex organisms and we do just fluctuate. We do. And there's some research actually that men require less sleep than women. And that's purely because of the hormonal fluctuations we go through throughout our lives. So I'm not surprised you see more women that are interested because women are more predisposed

to conditions like anemia throughout their life. lives, then they go through the menopause, and it's one of the big symptoms. But the trackers aren't accurate, Ella, and I think that's one of the most important things as well to understand is that most consumer sleep trackers, so they estimate your sleep using movement heart rate, and then the physiological symptoms, so they don't measure the brain actively. And when you're in a sleep clinical, you go to one of these places. I know Dr. Guy Meadows runs one in the UK. It's fantastic. The gold standard remains that something called polysomenography and that's like an overnight sleep study and it records your brain waves, your oxygen levels,

your eye movement, are you going into that REM sleep, that rapid eye movement, the heart activity. So it's got more of an all-rounded measurement than these sleep trackers are also providing. It's just like when you jump on, like I used to do a cross trainer in the gym and you put your hands on that heart rate monitor. And all of those machines are up to 40% inaccurate, potentially more. So we're taking it. We're taking it. making data just like we did with calories again. Well, we talked about this as well, didn't we, with the kind of at-home glucose monitors where these things aren't a perfect science.

You know, if you need to get an absolutely accurate reading of your blood sugar, of your sleep scores, of whatever reason, for medical reasons, like you are genuinely struggling with insomnia. You're just not, the data that you're getting on these at-home devices isn't necessarily as accurate. And I know some people find having a kind of general scope helpful. I think type A is among us probably, probably it's not helpful because you can get very hung up on data that's not wholly accurate. And then you start instead of being like, how do I feel today? Okay, cool. You're like, oh, my watch tells me that I feel ax and you kind of believe it. And then you almost expect yourself

to be a robot. Anyway, it's very interesting. And I think we should let this carry on outside of sleep and go into the optimization backlash. I agree because even the word, let's just quickly just summarize, the word autosomnia almost sounds like something like orthorexia or again, you know, we're developing because of the state of the world at the moment, these conditions and people have had enough. So our trend today, as Ella said, was the Stephen Bartlett backlash on the optimization trap. Okay. So this has been everywhere over the last few weeks.

I think it just has really struck a nerve with people, which is why it's so interesting to talk about. Now, I would like to say, really, I'm sure we feel the same about this. We actually almost never talk about individual people on this show. We don't bring up like a particular person and kind of dissect them. That's not what the show. It's about.

It's not what we're about. This is not an anti or a pro, Stephen Bartlett. Everyone has their own opinions on him. What it is, though, is a conversation that he had that kicked off a much, much wider discussion way beyond him about optimization. So we just want to reference him in context of this conversation on optimization, because it is, I personally believe, a very, very important conversation. And I think that's why everyone, like, whether it's people on socials, every news outlet has started talking about this because it's not really about him. It's just about this as a jumping off point for how we just. is enough enough. Yeah, have we just gone too far? So he did this interview. Weirdly, actually,

it was at the beginning of the year and somehow it just went by or on early June. Very random, not sure why the internet works in mysterious ways. But let's just play the clip. So we're all kind of on the same page with what we're discussing. It's one of those areas where you don't understand the hidden cost until you really give it up for a while. And I think about my own relationship with drinking and I stopped drinking at 30 years old. I'm now 33. And I had just drank because I just drank. I'd I never ran the experiment of just giving it up for a while. And then I don't know, maybe I was at 31, I thought, do not have a drink again.

Because now I could really A-B test it. I had a year of not drinking, decided to have a drink again. It ruined three days of my life. I had a couple of glasses of wine. Didn't get drunk. It ruined three days of my life because of the domino effect it caused.

So it meant that I got worse sleep that night. And then because I got worse sleep that night, I ate more poorly the next day because my dopamine system or whatever, the cortisol system was all messed up. That's a reliance, yeah. And then I podcasted work. I didn't go to the gym the day after, that day or the day after because of that, because I felt really bad.

I then slept worse and I could track all of this on my week, hashtag ad, hashtag sponsor, hashtag investor, whatever. Oh. Yeah. And I was like, oh my God, those three glasses of wine had this hidden domino effect that I must have been living with for my whole life. Can I read out two quotes from two different news outlets that I think are interesting on this point. Okay. So the Guardian had a piece on it and it said the health tracker backlash is. here ditch the data and set yourself free. A rebellion is rising against the dull, highly optimized

lives, big tech want for us. That's the Guardian. Business Insider, it's a very different outlet, had, for most of human history, sleep, be it good, bad or ugly, was simply something you experienced. Increasingly, it has become something you monitor, analyze and attempt to optimize. Somewhere along the way, many of us seem to stop trusting our own experiences and started outsourcing the verdict to a score a graph or a number delivered before we've even sat up in bed. Now many think that fewer than eight hours mean they failed. And I think failed is an important word there. And I think those speak quite nicely to this idea that we are just, first of all, we're outsourcing trust in ourselves. And second of all, we are taking normal things, normal trying to pathologize them. So like,

you know, you had six hours of sleep suddenly, like you have a problem. And it's like, you might not have a problem. It's also a deeper underlying element of the type of industry, Stephen Bartlett, and obviously you can't deny successful CEOs, has worked very hard. No one's detracting that away from him. We're using this, as Ella said at the beginning as an example of the optimization discussion. But I feel like we've had enough of being sold to, you know, sold a promise, sold a solution, basically for, like you said, things that are perfectly normal. normal. Things we don't need solutions to oftentimes. These podcasts, those types of ones, there's a reason they have controversial experts, controversial scientists on the show. A lot of the time, there are a few gems,

but most of the time they are people that are researching something very interesting. They get very excited about their subject area and they lack the nuance and understanding that on a public health level, it's just not that simple. It becomes for clicks and likes and for business. And the entire conversation that that particular podcast will have is not for the greater good of helping you learn. It is for you to be invested and to buy it into this machine. And I think that's what people are perhaps getting a bit fed up with. They're like, I don't want to buy into this machine anymore. You know, you're now talking about, but it's become so unrelatable, Ella, that that's why the backlash to the particular comment of a couple of glasses of wine, you know, that is a normal

thing to lots of people who are trying to improve their drinking or work on themselves. And the way he catastrophes the conversation because of his gadget, his whoop wasn't it, the gadget he said, I think it makes people see these gadgets in a different light and realize maybe that's not quite normal. Maybe he's got, either he's selling to me or maybe he's got his own psychological concerns there with optimization. Yeah. And I think that's the interesting thing, right? Like this has gone, and I guess also to be super clear, this isn't about encouraging alcohol from our side when we're talking about like let things go. But equally for most people, you know, a couple of glasses of wine on the weekend with their friends, this is a very normal thing to do.

And in context, it does not have to be an inherently unhealthy thing. And I think it's the idea that this one thing and it could be drinking, it could be many, many other things, but this one thing could trigger so much regret, self-analysis, like so much. time spent on what is actually quite a simple thing. It's like, oh my goodness, I ate some crisps. This is a disaster. Well, it's disordered behavior patterns and I'm not going to late. I don't know anything about Stephen and his life. I can't just say, oh, he's clearly got X, Y, Z. We were not that type of podcast, as Ella said. We are not those people. We understand how clips can be taken out of context completely. It's happened to lots of people before. But it's this slippery

slope that I think we wanted to talk about between paying attention to our health, very, very important, incredibly important, not something that we should ignore and obsessing over it. And this tipping point between like, I try and eat more chickpeas and like, I'm going to make a stir-fri tonight and like, I'm going to go for a walk my lunch break and I'm going to make an effort to go to the gym or Pilates class or whatever you like to do or do a YouTube video at home. And I can't enjoy pizza with my friends or go for margaritas, the Mexican food. or have popcorn with my children, whatever it is. I can't do these things because it's not perfect.

Or I can't stay up late with my girlfriends having a... Because my gadget says it's not good for me today. And that to me is what this conversation symbolizes. And I think that's why people were like, thank you goodness me. Let's get rid of optimization. It is sucking joy from our life because it's this idea like I can't stay up late,

gnattering away and putting the world to right with my girlfriends. I need to go to bed early. I can't have that glass of wine. in that chat because I won't be kind of doing things perfectly. The word that we use in clinic that differentiates between when something becomes disordered and when something becomes just a thoughtful process is flexibility. The way he described this is that he has complete and utter zero tolerance and zero flexibility in his life.

We all know the research, alcohol is not good for us. We know that. We know it's linked to cancer, stroke, cardiovascular health, everything. But the idea that, like you've just said, a couple of drinks then initiates their zero flexibility because three whole days of regret self-analysis and scrutiny, basically, it is very disordered. And I think it was that in itself that was what was so shocking. Perhaps, I mean, he's going to regret saying that massively. Yeah, I'm sure.

Unless it's got him loads of clicks and likes on the podcast, you know. Well, you know, look, it's put him front and centre. And I think, you know, that is a business model that a lot of people in the public eye have to use because you've always got to be different. You've always got to have newness doing the same things on repeat, which is fundamentally what health is is like kind of consistency and repetition and quite boring things again and again. That doesn't get you clicks. And so like to have cut through, you need novelty. So maybe actually it's been a great thing. But anyway, I just think it's a really important thing because yes, health is really important.

but so is fun, so is spontaneity, so is pleasure, connection, joy. And that does not need to be found through drinking. But it does need to be this point where we don't feel that we can't be flexible and enjoy things and also make a lovely batch cook on Sunday night to eat for work that week. Like the two things can be true at the same time. They can coexist and they need to in order to make healthy fun. And not to shy away from this conversation because actually, I was wondering if I play a clip of it, but the language is so terrible.

I don't feel like I can. But there was a very outspoken biohacking influencer that was calling everyone gob, swearing, every person that says, oh, why do we need a study to say that something works? You know, I'm selling my powders and I'm doing this. You know, one of those influencers have said, if you buy my powder, your menopause will be better instantly. You know, that type of promising and things. And I'm sure for lots of people there's placebos or effects, but she was basically putting down every,

she said anyone that sits on the sofa or on TV, like a medic or a health professional, that tries to cite research is full of BS. It's very confusing when you've got these two dogmatic extremes. And like you said, thoughts should coexist. And there's elements of biohacking that I'm sure can be very helpful for people and interesting. But the thing we cannot shy away from in this conversation is, like I said, when the flexibility becomes rigid, and then we've got people that think they're portraying

to the outside world something helpful, but it's actually author-exit, it's perfectionism, it's not good for their health long term, and you can tell that they're obsessing over it. And then it becomes their business model, and they lose their own identity, because lots of these influencers out there lose their core sense of self, because where's the line? Are you a biohacker that's selling XYZ for a living? how else do you be? How do you reject the optimization bandwagon that you are now on and projecting everywhere? Look at Kim Kardashian with her 35 supplements.

I just feel like we cannot ignore the disordered behaviours of the wellness industry. Yeah, I think that to me, as so the nail on the head is the disordered nature that I think we see so much time. Look, I have tried kind of tracking doing things quote unquote perfectly. those are like my least happy things. You know, I remember wearing that ring for the first few weeks of this year. And I was like, I was really, it made me really unhappy.

And I'll be the first to say, like I have what people always call, I know it's like a type T personality where you're like half type A, like got to do things right and then half like so lazy. That's me. But with this kind of thing,

I would wake up, I would look at my score. And you know, throughout the day, I'm like, what's happening? I'm like, what's happening? I'm not stress. What do I need to do? I could see the tipping point.

I was like, this can take over my life. It doesn't do that to those people. Those people love it. And it's amazing and it's a great tool. And that's great. If you can still have your flexibility and you don't live by metrics, I think that's great.

But I just worry for normal people and I don't mean athletes, people who must optimize for their livelihood. That's just a completely different beast. But normal, quote unquote, people with a normal job living a kind of normal life where optimization is really, just small tweaks to feel a little bit better, a little bit more energized, a little bit brighter

every day. You just don't need to be perfect to get the benefits. Yeah, because the challenge comes when the numbers become the goal rather than the information behind them. It's like a step count, a sleep score, heart rate, you know, you name it, they don't tell the whole story like Ella just said. And if you're exercising to feel good, but your track is telling you all those other parts that you actually probably didn't want, need to know, and now you're exposed to it. You can't help, but switch on that trigger in your mind. Research is actually increasing and exploring what some experts call the quantified self-phenomen, which is where constant monitoring is measured now, does heighten stress, perfectionism,

and health anxiety is actually very, very big in particular individuals. Some of us are more prone to this than others. And I think we all know, and Ella's very open about herself. And I know I'm probably, I've never had the health tracker, it never arrived that ring back in the day. and I'm actually quite grateful for it, but I'm sure it wouldn't do me any good either. And I think we have to encourage talking to yourself and say, is this data helping me make decisions

or is it controlling my decisions? And that's when it becomes distressing because health is not just metrics. Like we discussed in the wellness group, we said we should have a fifth pillar for health and it should be wellness groups like a socialization aspect that is completely and utterly lost with the disconnect of modern tech in the world.

world that we live in. Yeah, and don't forget, like, you know, connection is one of the most important things for your health. You know, having a long dinner with your girlfriends over a bottle of wine, you know, or not, I'm not saying you have to drink. I'm just saying that's a very normal, conventional way of getting together in this country. If you had a long Friday night dinner over a bottle of wine with your girlfriends, that is probably better for your health in so many ways than other things because that connection is so important to your health. So when you start saying, like, oh, I can't do that because I don't want to eat those things or drink that thing or whatever it is. That's when I think it is, you know, it's important.

And there's people praying on your vulnerability. So just before we close today, Ella and I could very easily, if we wanted to make an absolute buck, you know, we could say something. It's so extreme and controversial on the podcast, get it picked up by national press. And I'm sure that that's how lots of people on the internet make a living. And they do it in a calculated way. And it will prey on your vulnerability. And I think we all just need to keep our detective hats on. And like Ella said, this is your safe space here on the wellness group

where hopefully we can have these conversations in a fair balanced way. We know everyone's different. Some things will work for you. Some things won't. But there are sadly lots of people out there that are looking to pray on all of our vulnerability. And Ella and I both fall for things too. We're very open and honest about that. I spoke to LES staying tears about conversation I'd had.

And we all just have different things happening every day. Life is hard, everyone. Let's just focus on what we can do that's not overwhelming. Exactly there. Have a great day, guys. Don't you feel overly pressured? Do the best you can. You're doing a great job.

Yeah, you're doing a great job. See you on Thursday. Bye.