The Wellness Scoop - The Truth About Seed Oils & Gut Health vs Genetics

Episode Date: August 18, 2025

Welcome to a special summer bonus episode of The Wellness Scoop. We’re asking two big questions — are seed oils really as bad as the headlines claim, and does your gut health matter more than your genetics? We’ll dig into the science behind the seed oil debate, from where the fear started to what research actually says about their impact on inflammation, heart health and longevity. Then we’ll explore new studies on the gut–brain connection, and how lifestyle choices might shape your health as much as, or more than, your DNA. Plus, why dancing could be the most joyful workout, loneliness as a rising health risk, and the latest trends from the spinach scare to the Hot Girl Walk. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Welcome to the Wellness Scoop, your weekly dose of health and wellness inspiration. And as always, we're here. We're your hosts. I'm Ella Mills. And I'm Rihanna Lambert. And after a decade in the wellness industry, we know how overwhelming and confusing health advice can be. So that's why we created this podcast to cut through the noise and make healthier living, simple, fun and personal. Okay, this week, as we said, we would never leave you high and dry while we're on a little summer break.

So we have got a little best of the bits that you guys have been asking for, the topics that are most relevant in the world of health and wellness today. Here's a reminder of all the things that matter and that we have loved from this year. Let's get into the health headlines that matter this week, which is our section where we break down the biggest health stories that are making the news. Rie, what have we got on the agenda this week? So headline number one, Ella, when you sent this to me, I literally did jump for joy. because A, it's a happy headline.

B, 20 minutes of dancing a day will keep NHS doctors at bay. And that's the headline, isn't it? It's so funny. It's such a good headline. And I think on the show we're trying to tread this careful line for you guys because there's so much nonsense in the wellness world. And I'm just going to call it what it is. It is nonsense.

We could use a kind of slightly more derogatory term, but we won't. We'll call it nonsense. And it's so overwhelming. And I don't want to be a spoiler. But I think that's what we'll hit when we talk about electrolyte. and the rice debate later. And it just makes the whole world feel really overwhelming. But equally what we want to show you is that there's just these simple, easy things that

you can do, like make a crumble with your bits and pieces in the house that probably get you like eight to ten plant points of your 30 a week. Exactly. Easy peasy. Without much effort, everyone will enjoy it. And so when we find headlines like this that just really bring credibility to these simple daily tasks that you can do to improve your health, it makes me thrilled. I got an email about something to do with walnuts this morning that will bring.

to the show next week that was the same. It was like, yes, we can all do this. So that headline, yeah, 20-minute dance a day will keep NHS doctors at bay, whoever wrote that, well done. But yeah, the idea you can twist and shout while having your breakfast, experts have said, gains health benefits. So this is some new research. And what it found was that dancing freely, so literally jumping up and down, wiggling, re's dancing right now, you know, whatever you like to do, singing to Taylor Swift or whatever's your jam. For 20 minutes a day, while you're making breakfast, whatever you're doing, is just as effective as going on a jog or going to the gym for a gym session

in meeting your recommended exercise targets. And so this is from scientists at Northeastern University in the US. They recruited 48 participants between 18 and 83, so a really wide age range. And they monitored both their heart rate and oxygen uptake while they danced in these short five-minute bursts, so basically the length of a song. And the results showed that every participant reached a moderate or vigorous level of physical activity, which is what the NHS recommends you do for 150 minutes a week. And that was regardless of their dance style.

I don't think I have a style or experience in the inexperienced category for me, for sure. So we just think it's amazing. As I said, these NHS guidelines are there saying 150 minutes of moderate to intense exercise a week, which so many of us struggled to do, trying to fit it in in amongst the juggle of all sorts of other thing. But dancing around your kitchen or whatever it is for 20 minutes a day can have. help you or actually just give you that goal. I mean, I feel totally seen because this is my life.

And now I realize, oh, actually, maybe I am keeping fit because when I put Michael Jackson Thriller on, the kids and I have a dance routine. Oh, my gosh. Petition to see the routine. No, no. This cannot be public. But I cannot be the only person out there that, like, dances when no one's watching. There's a phrase, isn't there, dance like no one's watching you?

100%, which is just have fun. No, we're the same. And I find also like actually my older daughter when she started school, she found the adjustment really, really difficult. And she was just emotionally, I think, quite a lot younger. She's very, very young in the year and she's obviously have older siblings. And she just felt emotionally very little compared to some of her peers. And she was finding it really difficult because she was having some other children in the class say,

you're not a cool girl, you can't play with me. Are you joking? This happens at four. Yeah, she was four. It was so, oh, it was heartbreaking. I have boys, and I think it's different because that is. It was so sad. Anyway, we started doing, like, trying to explain to her, this is part of life, and it will always happen, unfortunately, in some guys.

But you've got to remember, it doesn't matter. And you can just be like Taylor Swift and you can shake it off. And we, at the whole Easter holidays, last year, we just listened to the Taylor Swift, shake it off. And then her teacher said, actually, sometimes when it would happen at school, when she came back, she'd be like singing along to herself, like shake it off. But it was really interesting. We started doing this at home. And even, it's amazing how different you feel. and it's like five minutes, ten minutes, and it's a dance party.

And it sounds a bit cheesy, but it just shows, again, these like simple, simple things you can do give you so much benefit. And obviously 150 minutes of exercise a week is absolutely critical for your health. It really is. And it's free. And this is free. Exactly. Anyway, so just remember, if you're struggling to fit in exercise,

don't worry about it, put on a song you like, and have a little dance party. I love that. This next, it's not really a headlong. so much as so, a constant conversation in the world of health and wellness. And I think a serious point of confusion right now, it's seed oils. And I want, I actually hope you don't mind this. It's funny. I keep talking about my mum. If you're listening, hi, Mum. Shout out, Camilla. But she, I spoke to her yesterday. She listened to the show. She actually was like, in a few weeks. She said, maybe I can pop into your office and meet Riannon. Oh, hi. I'd love that.

You'd have to cook that day, Ella. You'd bring us all tier puddings. But she said basically, like, I feel like she had more confidence. You should back yourselves. You were clearly nervous to put forward your opinions with birthday cake. And I know we were talking about that with ultra-process food as well. And I know you had a very difficult time talking about seed oils on Fern Cotton's podcast. I was told, Ella, beyond belief. Yeah.

Yeah. And I wanted to talk a little bit before we go into seed oils because I think it's actually really interesting, A, your personal experience, but B, as well, in reference to what you're talking about the other day, about getting the title nutritionist protected is actually there's so many things as a nutritionist that you essentially not cannot say but a way in which you have to approach things where it isn't fearmongering and it isn't creating tribalism or a deeply conflicting binary way of looking at health and wellness as you said there's so many pros and cons to almost everything and you as nutritionist is very important take that health advocacy, education, public well-being approach. Hence, sometimes the

nervousness to put forward an opinion. And I just wanted if you could explain that to people, because I think it's actually really, really interesting and very important and that experience you had. Yeah. Laying out the information on seed oils, I think speaks to that. Thank you for bringing it up. But also, I was absolutely terrified last week because ultimately I know we're all unique and my job the reason I got into being a nutritionist and studying there was no social media it wasn't for any gratification or accolade it was literally because I want to help people and I think the minute you become judgmental the minute you alienate or I mean there is no such thing as one size fits all there is no one perfect diet for everybody that is virtually impossible we do not have

any research to say that yet because everyone's unique so I think people are very emotional about their food. We've all got such a personal relationship with it that my job as a health professional is just to try and help people do their best. It makes to be quite emotional when I think about it because I think that's why I still have a career, you know, 10 years down the line. It was quite a big day for me today, guys, after this morning and that graduation ceremony is all a bit much. But I honestly think that we all can make a difference. But if you start believing these camps online that are so dogmatic with their approach, they fear monger and it's just wrong ella because it puts people off food it takes the joy away

it terrifies them and actually like the headline we've got this week it can lead to really poor dietary choices and that's why a big red flag for anyone that's following a so-called nutritionist that isn't educated is that they are telling you there's one way for everybody even though i wrote a plant-based book i don't think everybody's going to thrive on a plant-based diet It just doesn't work that way. I think that's so well said, and I can't kind of say it enough, like take inspiration, take ideas. But the idea that is why, and I know you're so anti it, but I'm not a big fan of things like

what I eat in a day, because I think it's not just that our bodies are different, our lives are different, like our days are different, our months are different, our years are different. And what's plausible, possible for you, every single person listening, you will all be having such a different day. You and I have had such different days. you had this massive morning at Royal Festival Hall. I was at Mae Mae Mae's Nursery reading a book about a Brave Bunny.

Yay! Go Brave Bunny. Yes, the Brave Bunny conquered his fear of the outside to find his friend and fight off a wolf with chocolate chip as good. Wow, that is a book. It's actually really good. It's called A Little Bit Brave. Okay, right, check that one out. Exactly, I love that.

Tell us about the seed oil headlines that you brought up. Okay, everybody listening, I know you've seen different things online, but please bear with me. So last week, Waitrose revealed that the sales of a block of butter has risen in the past year, with it now outselling alternative spreads by more than 20%. And by alternative spreads, I mean ones that have been designed with stanols, plant polyphenols, ideas that actually they do genuinely reduce cholesterol levels. So if anybody listening has a diet that's high and saturated fat, they're prone to heart diseases, heart disease in their family, the last thing you probably want to go and do

is buy a block of butter. But there's a trend, and I know it's not in the script. I am going off script here, but I can't not say it when you say blocks of butter. There is a trend online. And I am looking at you, TikTok, because I went on a deep time of this about a month ago when someone told me about it. It's called the Carnival Diet. You only eat meat, eggs and butter. And the snack is a stick of butter.

And I don't say that with judgment of putting butter on your toast. I don't say that of putting butter in your cake. I mean someone just literally for their snack eating an entire stick of butter. Whether or not it's good for you. It's the oddest thing. I have seen in a long time in this space. Guys, look, I'm really conscious, as you say, I'm nervous because I've been trialled so much on this topic when I spoke to Fern about it. Look, the reason butter is very high in saturated fat.

There is unequivocal evidence, hundreds, like more than 15 randomised control trials that we have that are considered the gold standard that also say that Cedores have no effect on inflammation. So saturated fat increases your risk of getting clogged arteries. And that starts when we're kids. Just to pause you there. The saturated fat is in the butter, not in the seed oils. Not in the seed oils. It's in coconut oil and it's in butter, which is also confusing because there was that crazy years ago on coconut oil as well, being used in everything.

So seed oils that people are now turning away from because of the fearmongering around rape seed oil in particular known as canola oil in America is believed to be inflammatory tree and that it has a high amount of what we call. I'm not going to get too sciencey on here, but omega-6. So generically speaking, you want a lot of omega-3 in your diet. You do need omega-6, but you probably don't need as much of it. But if you eat a diet that's really high in ultra-processed foods, you're automatically going to get a lot more omega-6 because they use a lot of these oils and other ingredients within them. But actually, rapeseed oil, this is what I got trouble for saying, has very similar properties to olive oil, if not when it's cold-pressed, superior

properties actually and can be a very good oil to cook with. It's high in vitamin E. It's a natural antioxidant. And there's so much research that shows it actually lowers the bad cholesterol, which is LDL. So actually, if you're somebody that in your family history, like there's heart disease on my side of the family. I have high cholesterol, Ella, genetically speaking, but actually my ratio is good. So I've got more of the good cholesterol, not the bad cholesterol. But overall, if I looked at the number, I'd be told it was bad. Anyone listening, please please have a think about you as an individual are you somebody that can get away with eating that much saturated fat every single day not many people can anyone fearing seed oils just do not

take the internet as your education source put your detective hat on are what they're saying are they saying in quite a fearful powerful way you're probably better off having those seed oils than having butter every morning and I know that for a lot of people that's going to be really confusing to hear. I do appreciate that completely. But that's what the research says. It's up to you. It's so interesting you said those 15 randomised control trials. Like there is this overwhelming body of evidence to show it. And we have done loads of research into it. With two nutritionists in the team, with loads of food scientists. And again, it was the exact same place. Like all of the evidence shows as of today, there's no problem in it whatsoever. Now, obviously, if 100% of your

diet is non-fruits and vegetables, no fresh food, never cooking at home. That becomes a different story. That becomes a different story for lots and lots and lots and lots of reasons. And so I do think that the conversation around seed oils has been quite extraordinary in terms of the fear. And I see it all the time where people are just so confused. And actually, I know I digressed into the sticks of butter conversation but my understanding is that a lot of the fear of seed oils and a lot of that original conversation came from this carnival diet. Who I've also been trolled from. So, you know, there are another camp on the internet. And look, some people might do better on a carnival diet by fluke, but actually it's what you don't see in 10 years time and 20 years time by the

impact on your heart health. You're not measuring how clogged your arteries get by following this type of diet. Also, the lack of fibre makes no sense for me as a scientist with the emerging research on how beneficial gut health is. So a carnival diet, or routine sticks a butter, does absolutely nothing for your gut microbes. So it doesn't really make any sense that it doesn't support your immune system or your mental health. Or your joy. All your joy.

And that was my thing when I was watching the sticks of butter. It was just... I'd be sick, Ella. I think I'd be sick. Yeah, I was just watching it, and I just thought, oh, it just feels like a shame, you know? Someone's just walking down the street, literally eating a stick of butter.

And that is it. Really? It was the only thing. That's their snack. and I guess it's just, yeah, we always come back to the same thing. It's the drive for the pursuit of health, especially when you don't have a health condition that's prompting it. Because there is some research for the ketogenic diet. I should throw out there.

So ketogenic diet is technically a carnivore diet because it's just based upon fats and very low amounts of carbohydrates. But it's higher proportion of fat to protein, right, when you're coming into the ketogenic diet. Technically, yes, and it can vary on your individual case. But for children with epilepsy, that's the only bit of concrete research. research we have for the ketogenic diet. And that's where the ketogenic diet originated from, isn't it? It was that study in Australia with epileptic children. And, you know, there's ongoing research on it on different conditions for the general

public health messaging. Probably not the best idea, Ella. Yeah, because you're removing all the fibre. But seed oils, I hope people, which makes you feel a bit calmer. And I think it links back to what we were saying a moment ago when we were talking about red dye number three, which is just trying to find a semblance of balance in your life. Like, you're all busy people, everyone listening. You've got a lot going on.

Yes, what you eat matters. but don't need to get stressed about every single morsel. Like, don't lose your joy and doing things. And food is a big part of culture just as much as a big part of health. And I think that just gets lost so often in these kind of quite dogmatic debates. Life's too short. Diwali, Christmas, Easter. How do you do that eating butter?

Yeah, anyway, let's move on to our next topic. You had a really good one, which emphasises the fact we should be more social. Yeah, I was really struck by a new piece of research that had come out. I took from the times, but that loneliness was linked to heart disease, stroke and infections. And I think it is interesting. There was a big Harvard study a couple of decades ago now, but it looked at, it was the longest study that they've ever done on people to understand the kind of main predictor to health. And it was time spent with other people. It was connectivity.

And we see it time and time again. So in a way, this is nothing new. This was looking at blood proteins. But it's a similar conversation. I mean, they've looked at like loneliness being the equivalent to smoking 15 cigarettes a day. I mean, so there's been lots of iterations to the same conversation. But again, I just think in January it feels, and the reason that I wanted to pick it up is it just feels like this timely reminder. Not to be like overly kind of generic or reductive, but wellness is a 360 pursuit.

And I think, and again, not to keep coming back to it. Oh, why? Why are we making this show? But just to reinforce on episode one, it's like, we know you're busy. You're probably listening to this in the car and the way home from work or, gosh, we're not perfect. But you've got a lot coming on and the idea of cooking a fresh. meal three times a day, exercising for an hour a day, getting eight hours of sleep, meditating every day. Like when you put it all together and you're juggling these other responsibilities, it feels so overwhelming. And I think as well, it's so easy to look at wellness

and think that it's ice baths. And how you look, because that references aging, whereas actually what you're talking about is overall health and how you live a quality life as you age. Totally. And it's just removing it from being these like either extremes or very time. time-consuming or very expensive activities or things that just feel really overwhelming and you have a very, very busy week and actually you're at your desk for 10 hours and the only option is Pratt or Starbucks or... The meal deal down the road? Pooed, mail deal, exactly.

And like there's a lot that feels out of your hand. But this is more in your hands, which is actually connecting with other people is almost the most important thing that you can do with your health. And again, it's so easy to overlook these small things. And I think, as I said, when we look at the news and when we look at the way that people talk about health and wellness, what gets cut through now are the extremes. And it's not, please go for a 10 minute walk on your lunch break. Yeah. Please spend 15 minutes of your day having a conversation with somebody else at some point. Please just add a sprinkling of seeds to your meal.

It's these very simple things that are actually so accessible for so many of us, but it's so easy to forget them. Because the press just look at diet and exercise. Yeah. And life is so busy and so so easy to kind of lose sight of it all. So I think for me it was this just reminder, you know, that the World Health Organization has described social isolation and loneliness as a global public health concern. And so loneliness and feeling disconnected with people, you know, it does. It really, really matters. But I feel lonely and I'm a busy, isn't it amazing how I think we all do because of technology, because so much of our work now, if you work on social media or you have content, you're in an office working with a computer, that just

automatically reduce how much you speak to a human. Well, if we go back to the anxious generation recommendation, there's a lot of conversation around that where people say, well, we're more connected than ever, because I can. I can text anybody in the next one second and talk to them, but I'm not really talking to them and I'm not really having that meaningful interaction

with somebody. It's so interesting. I wanted in 2025, like I don't make resolutions, as you know, but I wanted to just be happier. And I think happiness is such a nice goal. What can you do to make you love? It's just such a lovely thing to say, I just want to be happier. And I was reading a study that said if you just smile, and I don't know if it's the ex-performer background I've got, but you can almost enforce the natural biological response to smiling naturally when you pretend to smile.

So you can get that similar feeling of happiness. And it's almost really beneficial for you to try and manifest to be happy every day and kind of you've got to try and pluck something out like, oh, the sun's popped out in the sky. Yes, I'm so happy. I love that. But there is, isn't there? There's a lot of research behind gratitude. Exactly. And being incredibly positive for your well-being.

And that moves on brilliantly to headline three, which is that your gut health may matter more than your genes for brain function. I mean, blowing my mind even more here. And it goes to show, I mean, we've always known in the nutrition field that your guts really really important but now more than ever before ella yeah exactly as you said i think so many of us have heard that got in our brain and connected but in a new study that's just been published in nature structural and molecular biology there suggests that this link is actually even more powerful than previously thought and researchers found that gut bacteria can chemically modify

brain proteins through glycosillation a process where sugars attach to proteins changing how they function. So when we talk about glycation or glycoslation, we're talking about the stiffening of proteins and kind of like sugar molecules or carb. This is really basic science for there guys. Anyone listening to know science would be like, that's not exactly how it is. But just to explain it, you're almost suffocating your molecules and your body. You're stiffening them all up. You're hardening them all. And that's when we age. Glication is involved of aging. And what they're saying in the brain is that obviously the more good gut bacteria we've got, we can really help the protein survive through this type of process where sugar's attached to protein.

So do you know what I find so interesting is, again, with this protein hype that's happened for the last two weeks as we're recording this podcast, I'm seeing it everywhere. It's probably just in my algorithm. It frustrates me so much when I know from reading this that fiber helps fuel your gut, yet we're still not taking it seriously because these changes that are huge. It says that it can influence neuroplasticity, which is, you know, helping your brain grow and develop new chains and threads in your brain. Inflammation, how they communicate with each other.

Gut microbes aren't just affecting the mood. They're shaping our brain. It's absolutely extraordinary and that can impact memory, decision making, stress response and even mental health conditions like anxiety and depression, which is just absolutely massive. And as you said, it's like this desperate need to get people thinking fibres sexier. If you didn't listen yet to the Extra Scoop episode that we just released on 30 plants, with Dr. Federico and Marty that came out on Thursday.

It is so brilliant for this need to get fibre on the map. I know fibre is not sexy, but we've somehow collectively going to make it sexy. Share that episode with friends. Talk about it because our gut health is key. What's so interesting as well is that, I mean, I did a post on this on Instagram the other day, is that, okay, if you care about protein, just eat more plant-based proteins because they contain the fiber. They are the beans, the pulses, the lentils, the nuts.

the seeds. They are the protein sources in a plant-based diet that are very rich in fibre. So it's kind of like a win-win. And then the other thing that I wanted to just remind you guys of, because if you remember from a few weeks ago, we were talking about another study in nature medicine that came from the UK's Biobank. And that was about how your lifestyle has more impact on your health span and likelihood of developing various conditions than your genetics. And I just think that's really interesting in the same conversation as we're having here, where we're saying that, again, your diet, because it's what you're feeding to create your gut health, is more important than your genes for brain function. And when you put those two things together,

it's super, super powerful. And if you haven't listened to that episode yet, where we were talking about nature versus nurture in this new study, as I said, that showed your lifestyle was more impactful than your genetics. The key thing was that lifestyle and environment accounted for 17% of premature death risk, with genetics accounting for just 2%. And early life factors like childhood weight, maternal smoking during pregnancy, for example, not that there are things that we control. But just to point out, they were linked to disease risk up to 80 years later. So we just think when you put the whole things together,

it's very, very powerful in terms of how much is in our hands to influence our health. It is. And last week, we had the study, didn't we, the data on gut bacteria and meat. So if you do eat meat, just try and make those switches is what I'm trying to think. Do you remember, I think it was 332 cases of bad bacteria or some developed from consuming processed meat versus a very low level.

It was like number 14 with white meat. And again, it was a bit lower 12 or something with red meat. So just try and remove those processed meats. And it's like I say in the book, you know, you don't actually know what percentage of meat is in the burger you're buying and you don't know what impact that's having on your gut health. whereas if you're trying to just have meat but enjoy the better quality cuts

if you're able to this is what also just a little side note that I feel a little bit sad about is that in this country when there are these big divides socioeconomic divides on access to food on education the quality of foods just not up to scratch

when you buy these cheaper fast food cuts you just don't know what you're getting in your food no I know it's so difficult and it's so easy to sit here and say well bulk buying dried lentils that's much cheaper and like it is but you know we need to make sure people feel comfortable and confident to cook them to have

the equipment required to have the kitchen and also the mental load you know we were living with generations of people so overwhelmed so stressed so kind of bogged down in the various different responsibilities of life and so it's a complicated world and it's not to say yeah it's so simple

your lifestyle means more than your genetics and DNA don't worry about it just finish this episode and eat some lentils like I know, that's not what we're saying. It's so reductive in a way. But if you can be inspired to do that. And then I think it's how we collectively work together to create more meaningful societal change that allows us to. Yeah, and find your balance, guys.

Find your balance. It doesn't mean items are off limit. But you've got a good quote. Who is the guy with the dice? The guy with the dice. This is just one of my favorite quotes. We pulled it up a few weeks ago again from this study of almost a half million people in the UK bio. bank that shows that lifestyle was more influential than genetics on your health. And it was Dr. Stephen

Burgess, the University of Cambridge, and he just said, genetics can load the dice, but it's up to us, how we play our hand. And to what we were just saying, it's not completely up to us because so many different socioeconomic factors play in there. But for lots of us, and for, you know, a big sway of the population, there's more in our control than I think sometimes we like to think to some degree. And it's worth making those small changes, like making those muffins you mentioned, like roasting up your Those little efforts, like the recommendation, just tip a tin of lentils into what you're cooking. You could even chuck them in the muffins. Do you know what?

There's nothing better than like warm bread with butter. And if you've got a bit of veg in there, then it's just win-win. This podcast is sponsored by Talkspace. Last year, I went through many different life changes. I needed to take a pause and examine how I was feeling in the inside to better show up for the ones who need me to be my best version. of myself. When you're navigating life's changes, Talkspace can help. Talkspace is the number one rated online therapy, bringing you professional support from licensed therapists and psychiatry providers that you can access anytime, anywhere. Living a busy life, navigating a long-distance

relationship, becoming a first stepfather, talk space made all of those journeys possible. I could speak with my therapist in the office. I could speak of my therapist in the comfort of my home. I was never alone. Talkspace works with most major insurers and most insured members have a zero dollar copay. No insurance, no problem. Now get $80 off your first month with promo code space 80 when you go to talkspace.com. Match with a licensed therapist today at talkspace.com. Save $80 with code space 80 at talkspace.com. We're getting into what's trending and wellness and I'm going to say this is going to be our chunkiest take on trends yet. So when we're talking about spinach in kale, I just want to preface the fact that we're not just talking about this one

trend. What we want to talk about today is the spread of misinformation and what makes it therefore so confusing for us all to know how to make healthy habits and what we should change, what we should incorporate, what we shouldn't. And these are just a couple of videos that we've pulled out as I think the crux or real summaries of where the issues lie. And a lot of the spinach one again relates to oxalates which you guys have probably seen again things people talking about so we're just going to play a clip of it so you get a sense of what we're talking about and this is from an account where it's had about 33,000 likes so loads and that have like millions of views the image is like of a bodybuilding guy at the start just to paint the picture but there's

a scientist being interviewed on this podcast okay here we go which by the way kale and spinach are not healthy for you at all they're loaded with anti-nutrients especially spinach spinach spinach is probably the worst vegetable that most people eat when they're eating a healthy diet. Spinach has loaded with oxalids, creates inflammation in your gut. People will juice spinach. You want to stay away from spinach. It's one of the worst things you can consume. And almonds as well, by the way. Almonds are loaded with oxalids. It's something that I never eat almonds. Almond milk, almond flour. Like, it'll create almond butter. Yeah. Yeah, I would stay away from too much of that. What do you even say? Sometimes it's the claims about inflammation

that they make in the gut and these really drastic things. And they say it so confidently. and they say, I would never consume it. So let's delve into what oxalates actually are, everyone. So it comes from something called oxalic acid, and this is used interchangeably in the scientific community. They'll either say an oxalate or this acid word. So it's basically an organic compound. And it's found in loads of plants.

I've discussed before the protective properties that plants have, the powerful amazing things. And, you know, you get this in leafy greens, this compound, vegetables, fruits, even cocoa, you know, nuts, seeds. just spinach. So for him to just point out almonds and spinach is kind of crazy. But this is often discussed because spinach is, people label spinach as the leafy green that's a source of calcium. And the problem you've got is it's not actually one of the best sources of calcium out there because it's got oxalates and it prevents a lot of the calcium from being absorbed by

the body. But that doesn't mean spinach causes inflammation in your gut and it doesn't mean spinach is bad for you. It can still contains lots of other beneficial vitamins and minerals. So for most of it's just not even a concern Ella and we'd only say if you've got an underlying problem like you're working with one of our gastro dietitians in the clinic or you've got a chronic illness something that where you are struggling to absorb foods or you are looking actively at increasing your calcium intake and I'm doing a diet that's high in calcium I probably wouldn't include spinach as one of those items of foods but it is most definitely not going to kill you I just can't get over that bit and oxalates aren't inherently bad no no no

And, you know, your body can produce oxalate on its own or obtain it from food anyway. So, you know, vitamin C is converted to oxalate when it's metabolized. So you can't say don't eat these foods. You know, remember calcium you also get in other areas, guys. Oranges contain calcium, for instance, things you wouldn't think about. But once consumed to explain, oxalate binds to different minerals, and then it forms compounds like calcium oxalate or iron oxalate if it binds. to iron. And this most commonly occurs in our colon. So I think that's why he said it causes inflammation in the gut. It doesn't. It's just where this process occurs. And then it can also

take place in the kidneys and other parts of the urinary tract. And for some people, if they have a really, really, really high diet in oxalates, then it can be linked towards kidney stones. But I'm being honest here, this is really, really, really, really rare. They're taking things out of proportion. They take these really rare conditions and foods and blow it out of proportion just to create clickbait clips. I wonder if these people sell something on the side. You know, often they sell a supplement themselves and they demonise something to say they've got the solution. But the misinformation is wild. So there is just to clarify for people listening, there is nothing dangerous about eating oxalates. Nothing at all. Nothing unless you have a Crohn's or an underlying gut health

condition where you need to be aware of oxalates, but it's not dangerous to eat it. It's just it's not going to help with your calcium. That's it. All your own. Honestly, I may sound a bit blunt. I'm really sorry, everybody. I really appreciate that this is really scary when you see headlines like this. This sort of thing, in my opinion, should be banned from social media and it has to be regulated. It's insane. It just becomes impossible for people, and I was reading all the comments on these videos, it becomes impossible for people to understand what to do. Because everywhere you look, you're being told, this is terrible for you, this is terrible for you, this is terrible for you, this is terrible for you. It's like, slash you's bad

for you, but so spinach. And so where are you meant to find this middle ground? And it's so overwhelming. And then we go on to the fact that this very well-known doctor was on a big US show and said, word for word, two tablespoons of table sugar is better for you than two slices of whole wheat bread. My reaction is Ella's saying this, like my heads in my hands, because how can you go out there and tell people on a whole that two tablespoons of sugar, cane sugar, is better for you than bread. It provides you no nutrients, no nutrition.

I'm just going to give you a load of tooth decay and probably a really dodgy tummy if you just eat raw two tablespoons of sugar. It's going to cause your blood sugar to go absolutely haywire. And there is nothing wrong. Cain sugar is not bad either, guys. It's great in cakes, you know, put it in different ingredients. But to say it's better than a whole wheat bread that contains fiber, that contains nutrition, and yes, there's a difference like I discuss in my next book, The Unprocess, play a lot with bread as an example of a good UPF for so many people.

It has additives in it to extend its shelf life. So for some people out there on a real budget that are really struggling that don't have a fridge at home, if they've got a slice of whole wheat bread that can sit in their kitchen and not go off, and that's providing them with food so they're not starving, that is a wonderful thing. and it still contains fibre. For those of you that are interested in taking those extra additives out and you just want a nice fibre rich bread and you can afford that, it's a wonderful source of fibre. And bread also contains protein

and people don't realise that two slices of bread can contain just as much as a protein baromarketed of protein. So to me, these types of phrases are just deeply, deeply saddening to hear. I think the other thing about bread, about pasta, rice, etc. etc. Is there great carriers? And so, yes, the bread on its own may not be as nutritious as some other things, although as you said, it's still got fibre, et cetera. But again, it's such a great topper. You can put avocado, you can put hummus, you can put anything, you can make it into a sandwich, pack it with all sorts of things, which then give you lots of nutrition. Same with

pasta, et cetera, et cetera. And I just think it's just not a very constructive way to think about the world. It's a really privileged, almost uneducated thing to say from a doctor which is really concerning because, you know, when you've got no time, I'm going to go home tonight, I haven't prepped any food, the fridge is empty, the shop's coming late tonight, I'm going to get some slices of bread out,

probably do scrambled eggs or avocado or baked beans, whatever it is, on toast, it's quick and easy and it's a one-off, it's not my everyday item for the kids. But that's still a nutritious meal? Yeah, and it's fine if it is because it contains protein carbs, vitamins and minerals. And this is just the real epitome of misinformation online. And I think the epitome of all of that is this clip about water being bad for you. I also believe water is a scam.

Water is a solvent. So it's dissolving your body. The fact that people say it's hydrating your cells is crap. It's not a carbohydrate. It's not a fat. It's not a protein. It's literally a solvent. If you put any type of material in water, it dissolves it.

That's what it's doing to your body. and same thing with waterway and you're drinking all this water and bloating there's actually no benefit to it if you want to hydrate you have fats you have juices you have something that your cells can actually utilize

we're not picking like random niche things that one person has said and it's this like fully left field you know need to know kind of conversation this isn't kind of conspiracy well it sort of is conspiracy theory but in the sense of this isn't a kind of niche these because of social media

and now reaching tens of millions of people. And I think that's why we wanted to talk about it today. Because that's the problem is that you've got tens of millions of people seeing the bread is going to kill you, water is going to kill you, spinach will kill you, almonds will kill you. Carrots might kill you, lectins will kill you. This is all going to kill you. Then on the other hand, as I said,

you've got this kind of world of UPFs of slushies, etc. And you're just left, and I would love to hit. And people are just saying proteins the cure to everything. Everything. Exactly. And I want to hear what our audience think, because to me, this is the crux of the issue where it's the world of health and wellness has become this kind of clickbait, wild west, which is almost impossible to navigate, to have stand out, to have cut through, to have an audience and make that your job now. It feels like you've got to be pretty out there. Yeah, because in the olden days, you didn't have social media or you didn't have a chance to voice your conspiracy theories. And now you do. So anyone can get actually. access to them. But earlier on in our careers as well, and as kind of health and wellness started to pick up, it was the early days of social media. And you didn't need to be really, really, really, really, really left feel for people to listen to it, talking about lentils and carrots and chickpeas and kind of nutritious food or exercise, etc. You didn't have to get your body out. You

didn't have to do any of those things. You didn't need that for cut through. You needed to be useful. Yes. And you needed to help people to some extent, not to be kind of too sacramonious. But it is. It was just that it was quite simple. And now to get cut through because it's such a saturated space with so many people in it, where the way the algorithms work is this kind of clickbait effect, essentially. It feels like you've got to make claims like this for tens of millions of people to see it. And therefore, and I want to ask you about this, a lot of nutritionists, dietitians, doctors, choose now not to be registered because that allows you to be able to make some other claims to get a bit more cut through.

Will you just give our audience before we get into misinformation the 101 on that? I think it is really important in understanding who you're listening to as well. It's a real sore spot for me, as Ella knows, and I've discussed it quite a bit, if anyone follows the nutrition channels, because morally, if you go into healthcare, if you become a doctor, there's that phrase, trust a doctor, you know, if you become a nutritionist or dietitian in the UK anyway, you have a responsibility to abide by a code of conduct, and that's ethics. And we've got a whole list of things that you can and can't say, for instance, when I launched Retrition Plus, my supplement brand, I wasn't allowed to have a picture of me holding my

own product because that shows bias and I have to always list in press pieces like other examples, two or three, so I'm not showing that I prefer one over another in certain scenarios. There's so much to consider. For doctors, this is even more important because they are the first point of call when anyone needs something, you should go to your GP. And they have a responsibility in society to uphold these guidelines and the problem now with social media is that I think money talks well I think everyone knows money talks and I'm not scared to say I'm owning this opinion I see people who are immensely successful who still can call themselves a doctor still can call themselves a nutritionist and not be regulated by the GMC or by the association for nutrition

dietitians eventually can get pulled down because their titles protected but they can still call themselves a nutritionist because that's not protected yet, which is what we're still waiting to hear back from the Privy Council on that kind of side case that we've got in the UK at the moment to get the title nutritionist protected. But it means these people can sell things to you

and have nobody hold them responsible. They can say whatever they want, they can say these outlandish things about two tablespoons of sugar is better than bread. Because if you're not choosing to be registered, you're not paying to be part of a community, I pay voluntary every year to be registered. I get nothing back but a slap on the wrist

if I do something wrong. But that's how I feel morally it's the right thing to do. It's there to protect the public. And so many now are not choosing to do that because the money they get online is bigger than them actually doctoring or actually being a nutritionist. It's absolutely fascinating. It's the kind of thing that I think you wouldn't know

unless you exist in this industry. But I don't know if it helps. And I'm not saying everyone's doing that, but I don't think the kind of collective muddiness of the water helps. this misinformation, but you've got a voice note for us about why this spread of misinformation has become so rife? I do. Now, my friend Idris, Dr. Ids, you may know him online. He does a lot of those debunking videos online that I think are really difficult to approach or do because you actively have to call someone out. It's quite an aggressive form, but effective of debunking

videos. And he's very good at it. It's called Dr. Ids. And he discusses why C-Dohs. Let's use that as an example. There's so much misinformation about C-Dos, for instance. So I think there are several reasons why the hate on seed oils is at an all-time high. Firstly, the rise in popularity of diet fads like animal-based or carnival diets, you know, likely plays a role. Proponents of these dietary patterns often fall victim to many logical fallacies like the appeal to nature fallacy, which is the idea that just because something is natural, therefore it's better for you, and if something is artificial, therefore it's harmful, right? And of course, seed oils aren't found in nature.

You have to process the seeds, so they automatically think it's harmful. Secondly, the rise in chemophobia, especially in the post-COVID era, has likely played a part two. The fact that certain chemicals are used in the manufacturing process of seed oils can sound scary to some people, especially when they don't understand these processes and their function. So big sounding chemicals also plays a role into the anti-seed oil movement probably. Another factor is probably the general distrust in science overall. So despite the dozens of controlled human studies independently conducted, which show that seed oils are in fact healthy for a variety of blood markers,

you know, blood lipids, liver fat, insulin resistance, inflammatory biomarkers and so on. It's that often these people won't even care, right? Which means that no matter what evidence you bring to them, they'll still fall back on these very superficial arguments, like the logical fallacies like the appeal to nature fallacy or just chemophobia in general, or the composition fallacy or the false equivalence. So those are probably.

the main reasons why the anti-seed oil movement has garnered so much attention. I think he really summed that up so, so, so well. And I think it's probably the biggest example of the spread of misinformation. And as we're saying, how difficult it is to navigate the landscape. And again, we'd just be so curious to hear from you guys on that. On that, I was speaking to someone that owns a huge company in the US last night and they're having to reformulate all their products from seed oils in the States. Yeah, because of the misinformation on seed oils. They have to reformulate everything. Yeah, it's absolutely fascinating. It really, really is. And I think the important thing is it's almost for everyone just like find

the middle ground. Like we just need to have this more kind of calm, less stressed, less clickbaity, sensationalist viewpoint. It's so reductive and kind of silly in a way to say like go back to the way your grandparents say. But there is so much in that in when it all gets confusing, just go back to basics. I know, absolutely, 100%. Just try and eat a nice, balanced meal, guys. I'm a bit lost for words on this episode. I feel like this episode, these trends.

Yeah, I'm a bit lost for words as well. But as I said, for me, the key thing here is it highlights this huge dichotomy, which was my whole reason why I called you about this show. And it's my kind of big passion in life because I feel that it's very difficult to help people change the way that they eat in the world today because of this extraordinary split where on the one hand there's this huge proliferation of foods

that are very, very bad for us, slushies in today's episode, where it's become normal and where you're odd for being at a trampoline park or a birthday party and not wanting your young child to drink something like that.

And it's so hard as they're left out and so many times. Or you don't want them to have the ham in the ham and cheese sandwich even though we know it's a carcinogen not saying you can't have every now and again but every single day. And then on the other hand

you have this demonisation this clickbait, this algorithm driving, kind of insanity where the health and wellness world has become so extreme and it's no longer okay to just talk about crispy lentils or chocolate-covered walnuts or these easy things. I couldn't even talk about protein because then people think you're saying it's not important, but it is important. We know this. It's just not the most important or singularly important thing.

It's very emotive, guys. Food and wellness because it affects us all is emotive. It is. But I hope this is like a weekly reminder to find that middle ground. and not to get too bogged down and everything you're seeing, reading, be inspired to exercise of all those examples, be inspired to make those changes, but don't be overwhelmed. The big trend I want to talk about is the hot girl walk.

Sorry, I can't take it seriously when you say it, yes. I know, I can't take myself seriously when I say it either, and it's funny because I took myself on a hot girl walk yesterday, and I was so embarrassed to be like, so I just want to caveat, Yeah, I don't see myself as a hot girl. I'm not trying to define myself as a hot girl. What did you say that Sam Greed says? Talk to yourself kindly.

Talk to yourself, exactly, yeah. Emma Greed, who I referenced the other day, who's this amazing female founder, who says she doesn't get imposter syndrome, which I really look up to her. I do. And I can't say I'm a hot girl. But I want to talk about it because I guess it's twaps into what we were just saying about prioritizing sleep, for example, and these simple habits, which I know we're both so passionate about in terms of moving.

wellness from complicated, expensive things to these simple day-to-day things that feel more approachable to all of us. And The Hot Girl Walk is one of them. So we see a lot of mad things in terms of trends. This was a great one for me. You guys might have heard about it. It was a big, big trend last year. We're kind of a few months late to the party, but I still wanted to talk about it. It's had over 600 million views on TikTok, the Hot Girl Walk. But actually it's not about looking hot, which just have to clarify that. It's actually about getting outside, moving your body and boosting your mood in a very gentle feel-good way. So the term was coined by a TikTok content creator called Mia.

Her handles exactly like the other girls, which I also like, as we were saying, it's like when you get your 10 a.m. dip, probably the same as everyone else. We're all going through the same things. And she started this back in 2021. And the concept is super simple. You go for, she was saying a four-mile walk. That may or may not be plausible for you. But you get outside, go for an intentional walk.

But while you're walking, pop on inspirational podcasts. Hello, the Wellness Scoop or a playlist that lifts you up something that just makes you feel really positive it would be a bit of Taylor Swift for me you use that time to just clear your heads set intentions and feel good in yourself I think the hot girl element was inspired

by the Megan the Stalian song Hot Girl Summer but it's just about feeling your best A Hot Girl Summer that's what I meant earlier that's what everyone's talking about Hot Girl Summer Exactly so I think the Hot Girl Wall comes from the Hot Girl Summer And do you know what I love this I love it as a trend

And it's more of an inspo for me because I can't just leave the house and walk when I want. You can't do it when you've got children. You can't do it when you've got work deadlines. But it is an incentive to get up on a lunch break or when you're dropping them or walk them to school at least an extra five minutes. I'm going to incorporate hot girl walking into my life more. It's amazing. Yesterday I had a back-to-back day from 9 until 6 and I had a 20-minute break from 10 past 2 to hot-past 2. And someone said, Ella, can you just do this one thing?

And I politely said, actually, is it urgent? Because I've got time tomorrow. Can I do it tomorrow? I just want to get outside. And I could have so easy stayed at my desk, had lots and lots of things to do. And I went outside for 20 minutes, very short period of time. I listened to half of my favorite pop culture podcast. And it just felt so good.

And as I said, it's so simple. Didn't have time to kind of do a full exercise yesterday. Didn't have lots of time to cook. But I did have 20 minutes. And I felt so much better for it. it and I think again it just comes back to this idea that we think we have to do all these complicated things to get health benefits but walking is proven to support your heart health lower blood pressure reduce your risk of type 2 diabetes joint health as well exactly naturally

boost your energy if you know if we talk about women not getting enough you know we don't lift weights at least if you're pounding the ground exactly amazing lower stress and anxiety new one enhances creativity which I didn't know because it's such a great way to clear your mind and if you go for a little walk after a meal it can help balance your blood sugar after it which is so good for your digestion but also helping be there like 4pm afternoon slump as well so just a reminder you don't need to run a marathon

you don't need to go to Barry's boot camp etc etc to get health benefits of moving your body Let's hot girl walk listen to the wellness school while you do it and if you do send us a pick because we'd love to hear how you're getting on it segues us on beautifully to our listener question today

which I thought was a really really, really important question and one that I hope is really helpful. This listener said, I wanted to say yours and Riannon's podcast is my favourite part of the week. We love to hear that. I have learned so much and it really helps me evaluate the advice you see online. The advice there is in inverted commas. My eating is a lot better since listening to you both. I have some nerves about trying out your recipes. I love the look of them and have all the books, but I'm nervous to dry them as typically nutritious meals tend to incorporate things like nuts and seeds. which I do eat is a snack more recently walnuts but they're quite high in calories how do you eat these delicious meals without gaining weight i know there's something to be said for mindful eating here but i was wondering if this is something that could be addressed in a podcast at some point please how do you change this mindset i know eating these meals will do me the world of good but it's a block i have and i want to get over it is understandable weight loss obviously is difficult just to let everyone know you know it's never a linear line and something i always say in clinic is that if you are looking at

weight loss. First of all, that is okay. That also seems a bit taboo for people saying they want to lose weight because it is okay to embrace all body sizes and shapes, but it's also okay to want to do something for you. So let's just put that out there as well. It's never a straight line weight loss. It never just goes down once you start looking at it. It will plateau and you'll go through periods where it's why you need support or it's very difficult. Now nuts and seeds, let's take this as an example. They are high in calories and they're high in fat, but the good type of fat. But I would say if you had a snack of walnuts that afternoon, it's probably not a good idea to make a meal with walnuts in as well that day. You've had the walnuts.

This is when diversity comes in. This is when you need to pick a different meal off that array of meals. And not all meals contain nuts and seeds. You know, there are so many delicious plant meals. I think the big fear comes from seeing these people do these what I eat in a day videos as well if they're plant based or, you know, sometimes they don't do that. and they're making it up, which is why I've got a big thing about what I eat in a day videos. There's no way, and I can tell, there's no way someone is eating exactly what they're sharing a lot of the time. You just know that.

The calorie content is too high, and their gourmet meals, they're cooking up fresh three times a day. As Ella and I have both said, it just doesn't happen. Look at those star meals. I call them Star meals, your hero meal of the day, the one that you have time, the one that you can embrace to get the diversity in. I love Star Meals. I haven't heard about that. That's a really nice way of thinking about it. Yeah, I just used to doing clinic all the time.

I'd be like, look, what day of the week can you do a hero or star mill? Like, when can that happen for you? What are we going to make? And then do like three portions and put it in a lunchbox, you know, freeze it for the rest of the week. But plants are actually low in calories. And I think the fear comes from carbohydrates, I think. And people don't realize they're actually really low in calories. Like a big plate of rice or obviously portions are different for everyone.

Take a large portion, like a big cup of your hand of rice or pasture. and that's your portion of carbohydrates, two outstretched hands of vegetables, chuck that on the plate with it. The proteins you can get from plants like pulses and beans, they are very low in calorie and very high in fibre. So where you see a lot of people living in this way, consuming plant-based diets like Heller and I do, the calories actually are lower than you think.

Your eyes are seeing the portion. The calories come from the fats you add to these plant-based meals a lot of the time. They come from the avocados, the nuts, the seeds. So I would just say be sensible about, looking at your day rather than the individual meal. If you know a meal is going to have, this comes of education, it comes of practice. Like if I knew I'd had a whole avocado, I probably wouldn't eat it at another meal that day. I'd actively not consume that and I would choose something different. But genetics count, activity levels count, your age counts, are you menopausal,

are you not? What is going on with stress levels? Stress is huge and then mixing it up. So try not to compare yourself would be the biggest bit of advice and I hope that's been helpful in terms of education when it comes to looking at your unique requirements and seeing these people creating these recipes online because it's great to use for inspiration but you have to apply it in a way that works for you totally and I think the other thing that's worth saying is that these foods tend to be higher in fibre as well which does kind of simply put just going to keep you more full You need to drink more water, Ella. They need to drink more water if they cook these meals as well.

Explain that a little bit for us. Sorry, I just came out with that. I looked at Ella's like, don't forget the water. When you consume more carbohydrates and fibre, you need more water to help your body process those, to digest that. So to each molecule of carb, you attract three or four molecules of water, for instance, if you're looking at it on a molecular level. So you just need to increase your water when you increase your fibre intake and build that up slowly, or you're really going to notice your gut going, ah help me i'm suddenly eating what these what i eat in a day girls are doing and it's not working for me do it slow do it so yeah but the fibre will probably reduce your appetite at other moments in

the day because you will be really really full which is great and it's going to give you that long lasting energy so you're not going to suddenly be like i'm starving and feel hungry so this isn't sexy guys but before we close the show there was a study i think it was 2008 or nine long long time ago but it showed that store weight really matters. So the heavier your poo, essentially, from all the fibre, the healthier you are. And in countries around the world where they don't live in westernized societies, but they eat a lot of things like tublers. And I think it's the tribe that was studied the Hadza tribe or Hudson tribe were the one at the time.

They're studied all the time. All the time because they're one of those tribes that live in an environment that's not corrupted by everything we have around us now. And yeah, basically the larger and heavier your poo, just to put it out there, the healthier you are because of the amount of fibre. And they eat way more than 30 grams of fibre a day that we are aiming for and not hitting here. Yeah, it's such good advice. I think the other thing to go back is the closing thought on our episode. It's our first ever episode where we had Giles Yo, to reference him again, talking about the myth of calories and why calories aren't all created equal. I think there is also something a lot to be said instead of thinking how many calories are in that meal to think how much nutrition is in that meal.

thousand percent i wish i hadn't said calories explaining that guys i just know it's what you know i like to call it energy just think of food as energy but it's not we can't possibly calculate it 100 and again not to be too kind of wishy-washy or reductive to close it but i think there's something so inherently positive about thinking about a recipe or thinking about that star meal you know maybe the one meal a day that you can put a little bit more time and effort into and thinking like what's going to make me feel great enjoy it oh the joy from food like when you actually have time to enjoy a meal it's such a rare opportunity in today's society yeah so enjoy it and think about what it's doing if you versus breaking it down into calories love love love thank you so much for

tuning in honestly we love reading your feedback your comments and these bonus scoop episodes have been pulled together by subjects you have asked for so thank you we want to tailor the show around you because we would not be here without you so all your comments on spotify on apple have helped bring this together and tune in monday for another fantastic wellness scoop. Exactly. Keep those questions, reviews, comments, queries coming because we are spending a lot of time going through them all. We're finding the wellness scoop making it as good as it can be for you guys. And don't forget, first of September, we're back all singing or dancing, ready for the wellness scoop.