True Crime Campfire - Bad Fortune: Two Tales of Psychic Scammers

Episode Date: December 20, 2024

As Abe Lincoln once said—or possibly some guy named Peter Drucker, depends on who you ask—the best way to predict the future is to create it. But for a lot of us humans, that’s a little too loosey-goosey. We’re not big fans of the unknown, and we tend to seek out people who claim they can tell us what to expect from the future. Americans, for example, spend billions a year on psychics. A lot of these are legitimate businesspeople who genuinely want to provide counseling and comfort for their clients. But there’s also a bustling trade in psychic fraud—run by people who have no qualms about taking advantage of you at your most vulnerable and desperate. Today we’re gonna tell you about two of those cases. Case 1: The Mysterious Death of Seth Tobias. Case 2: Psychic Scammer Gina MarksSources:New York Times: https://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/04/business/04tobias.htmlABC News: https://abcnews.go.com/Business/story?id=4279324&page=1New York Magazine: https://nymag.com/news/features/43914/The Times: https://www.thetimes.com/article/hunt-for-tiger-the-go-go-boy-after-seth-tobiass-death-5n923qml8pfThe Guardian: https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/feb/12/bob-nygaard-private-investigator-psychic-fraudNBC: https://www.nbcwashington.com/news/local/maryland-psychic-sentenced-to-6-years-for-scamming-clients/155294/TV show "Pink Collar Crime," episode "The Psychic Didn't See Him Coming"Follow us, campers!Patreon (join to get all episodes ad-free, at least a day early, an extra episode a month, and a free sticker!): https://patreon.com/TrueCrimeCampfirehttps://www.truecrimecampfirepod.com/Facebook: True Crime CampfireInstagram: https://gramha.net/profile/truecrimecampfire/19093397079Twitter: @TCCampfire https://twitter.com/TCCampfireEmail: [e-mail]! https://true-crime-campfire.myspreadshop.comBecome a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/true-crime-campfire--4251960/support.

Hello, campers. Grab your marshmallows and gather around the true crime campfire. We're your camp counselors. I'm Katie. And I'm Whitney. And we're here to tell you a true story that is way stranger than fiction. We're roasting murderers and marshmallows around the true crime campfire. As Abe Lincoln once said, or possibly some guy named Peter Drucker, depends on who you ask, the best way to predict the future is to create it. But for a lot of us, humans, that's a little too loosey-goosey. We're not big fans of the unknown, and we tend to seek out people who claim they can tell us what to expect from the future. Americans, for

example, spend billions a year on psychics. A lot of these are legitimate business people who genuinely want to provide counseling and comfort for their clients. But there's also a bustling trade in psychic fraud, run by people who have no qualms about taking advantage of you at your most vulnerable and desperate. Today, we're going to tell you about two of those cases. This is bad fortune. Two tales of psychic scammers. Case one. Informant. The framing of Filomena Tobias. So, campers, for this one, we're in a she-she-gated community in Jupiter, Florida. The early, early morning after Labor Day, September 4th, 2007.

Philemena, Phyllis, Tobias, called 911 in a panic. I don't know if my husband has passed out or what, she said. He was in their backyard pool, just floating and unresponsive, and she didn't know if he was breathing. Please just send me somebody, she said. The dispatcher heard her yell, Seth, don't play with me. But Seth wasn't playing. When the Jupiter PD arrived at the Tobias' $5 million home, they found Phyllis in the shallow end of the pool, cradling her motionless husband in her arms.

Paramedics got there a moment later and started chest compressions, but it was too late. Seth Tobias was already stiff and cold. The coroner pronounced him dead at the scene a little after one o'clock in the morning. He was only 44 years old, and his death had come seemingly out of nowhere. Seth was known to millions of CNBC viewers as one of the regulars on the financial show Squawk Box. He managed a successful hedge fund and was a millionaire. many times over. As far as the outside world knew, this guy was living the dream. No major health conditions or anything. How the hell it he ended up dead in his pool? There was nothing immediately

obvious. The first responders all noticed some abrasions on his nose and forehead, and Phyllis told the police that her husband had been drinking and doing cocaine earlier that night. When they searched the Tobias' house, the officers found a couple of little baggies full of white powder and a cut-up straw. So, could have been an overdose, could have just passed out in the pool and drowned. But as always, it would take some time to get an autopsy done and determine a definitive cause of death. Seth definitely liked to party a little too much, maybe a lot too much. One of his friends described him to reporter Stephen Roderick as a little crazy, saying that when they went out to the strip club or bars, Seth would get so banged up that his buddies would have to shepherd him home.

At the time of his death, Seth had been with Phyllis for about four years. Their relationship had been a toxic roller coaster from pretty much the minute they light eyes on each other. I mean, they were both married when they met at the 2003 Super Bowl, if that tells you anything. Phyllis had been married three times. They had one of those dumpster-fire relationships where both parties are just addicted to each other, no matter how much damage is due into both of their lives. It was a constant roller coaster of screaming arguments and weepy reconciliations. They were always accusing each other, cheating, always breaking up and getting back together.

Seth's brother tried to convince him to leave Phyllis for good a few times, telling him she was either going to kill him or bankrupt him. Apparently, she really liked spending money. She'd show up at Seth's office on the regular and demand like five figures worth of cash so she could go out shopping. In fact, his secretary tells a story of her coming in, just walking right up to his desk and going, give me $15,000 fucking dollars, like in this really mean tone of voice. Oh, okay. Hi, honey. Nice to see you too. So nobody approved of their relationship. But in 2005, they went ahead and eloped without telling anybody, and Seth bought her the $5 million mansion in Jupiter. But the marriage didn't exactly start out on a firm foundation. Despite the fact that Phyllis allegedly liked to dabble in illicit substances herself, she was really mad at Seth about his cocaine use. One night, while they were out to dinner with friends, she suddenly leaned over, put her whole mouth over his nose and started sucking on it. I know, some kind of kinky foreplay, something that we got to send them to the kink shaming

corner about? No, oh no. She was looking for cocaine up there to see if he'd been lying to her about using. Like, girl, surely there's a better way. Like, have you heard of a drug test? Make him pee in a cup. Ew. You know, every day I get my hopes up that we can return to the kink shaming corner and every day I'm disappointed. Well, I mean, we could send him there anyway for that. That's just bonkers. I can only imagine what like the waiters and like everybody in the restaurant thought like, what in the hell?

Is she sucking on his nose at the table? Yep. Another time, Seth got arrested for assault for throwing a jar at Phyllis during an argument. And she dropped the charges. When Phyllis got arrested for slapping Seth, after he found her at a restaurant with some guy and called her a whore, He dropped the charges too. We've all known some version of this couple, right?

Like, I definitely have, I've known several of them, and they're always exhausting to be around. And they are fascinated with their own love story. Oh, God, yes. Shit hit the fan in the spring of 2005, when Phyllis allegedly found evidence that Seth was having an affair. She did not take it great, as many of us wouldn't.

She sent him a barrage of furious. various texts in all caps. You are not capable of stopping to drink or doing your Coke or being honest. I hope you get AIDS with all the whores you fuck too. Ooh, that's classy. Jesus, Murphy.

Seth texted back, I'm sorry, take a breather. But Phyllis didn't feel like taking a breather. She wrote back, Now it's war! With about 18 exclamation points, which as we've talked about before

is a red flag. The more exclamation points, the red or the flag. This one was crimson. It was very red, yes. The day after that text exchange, Seth filed for divorce, and Phyllis immediately made her demands known. She wanted almost 50 grand per month, despite the fact that she was still getting alimony from her previous husband. 9,500 of that 50 grand was for vacations. Bitch, you are going on a $9,000 vacation every month.

What is this woman's life? Rich people. They're just like us. I'm going on a vacation in my mind every month. In response, Seth accused Phyllis of buying a $75,000 Porsche by forging his signature without his permission. Phyllis alleged that Seth had gambled away obscene amounts of money and spent even more on drugs. Yeah, which was rich coming from her. Like, apparently all her previous marriages had broken up at least partially because of her out-of-control spending habits.

It was about to get ugly. But then they got together with their lawyers for a come-to-Jesus meeting to hammer out the settlement. And before the lawyers could even say anything, Seth and Phyllis were falling into each other's arms and vowing eternal devotion. Back together again. That's beautiful, man. God, their attorneys must have been rolling their eyes so hard. Can you imagine? Get out of my office.

I hate you both. Their attorneys, they're friends. Can you imagine? Like you thought, you thought, oh, okay, finally we can, we can have, we can, you know, have our friend back without the high drama. And now the high drama's back. Maybe your friend is the high drama. Maybe that's the solution.

To help cement their reconciliation, Seth bought Phyllis a fabulous new house in Jupiter. Spanish style mansion, big pull out back. Everything should have been Peechie Keen, right? But there was a new character in Phyllis's life that was about to come stomping through her marriage like a bull in a china shop. His name was Billy Ash. And from his website, askbilly.com, he sold himself as a psychic advisor. for the low, low price of $3.99 per minute. The website said he'd won all kinds of psychic awards.

Apparently, those are a thing that exist, including Best Psychic at the Las Vegas Psychic Convention. So do they have to call you up and let you know you've won the Best Psychic Award, or do you just know? They, like, astrally project it to you? This next award goes to Johnny Crystals, who's joining us from Belize via Asthma. Or from his prison cell where he's serving an 18-month stretch for fraud. Yeah, that's more likely. Billy claimed he'd been the personal psychic advisor to the likes of Sarah Jessica Parker and Nancy Reagan.

One time, supposedly, he sent her a necklace. He said Nancy had given him as a thank you for a reading. Psychic to the stars. And Phyllis was all over it. Before long, she'd hardly make a move without Billy's approval. She was spending roughly $2,500 a month on readings. And she wanted her hubs to start consulting with her psychic friend, too. Seth wasn't super into the idea, but he did give in and call Billy a few times.

And one afternoon in 2006, Billy called Seth up at work and demanded $156,000. Those few little chats they'd had, Billy said he'd added up the bill, and it was time to pay up. Seth was completely baffled by this, so he got in touch with his attorney, and the attorney sent Billy Ash a letter. Basically, dude, stop contacting my client. He doesn't owe you shit. Your website says $3.99 a minute, for God's sakes. According to Seth's attorney, Mr. Ask Billy didn't take this well. He implied that if Seth didn't give him his $156,000, he'd be forced to go public with all Seth's dirty laundry. Everything he and his wife had confided to. him during their little psychic gab sessions. Now, I don't know what he was referring to exactly, but I do know Seth was fond of hard drugs and drinking, and I know he'd been arrested one time for throwing a jar at his wife. How would Seth's investors feel about all that? Now, we should be clear. Billy Ash denies that he did this, okay? This is an allegation, according to Seth's attorney, but I believe the attorney, and you're going to find out why. So, obviously,

Seth cut off all contact with Billy at this point, and he told Phyllis, about the extortion attempt. And for some banana pants reason, Phyllis still kept consulting Billy for his psychic expertise. After he tried to flip in blackmail her husband. So, as you can imagine, this stuck right in Seth's craw. I wouldn't mind, too. They went back and forth like they always did with a couple crazy fights where the po-po showed up, and through the whole thing, our girl Phyllis kept in close touch with Billy. Don't give up on your marriage, he told her. And as a thank you for his steadfast support, Phyllis sent him a $10,000 watch. Ugh, God. I just cannot.

Finally, in the fall of that year, Seth decided he was done with their marriage once and for all. Phyllis had promised him she'd cut off contact with Billy, and he found out she was lying. If she couldn't show him some loyalty here and show enough good judgment to get this fake psychic extortionist out of their lives, he was out. He wanted a divorce. Now, this was in August of 2007, and a few weeks later, Seth Tobias was dead. And a week or so after Seth's death, his brother Sam Tobias got a phone call from Billy Ash. Sam had never met Billy before or apparently even heard of him. Billy told him he'd worked for Seth and Phyllis as a personal assistant, didn't say anything about being a psychic,

and he had a disturbing story to tell. Phyllis, Billy said, had murdered her husband. She crushed up a bunch of Ambien and put it in his spaghetti sauce. Sam was stunned. How did Billy know this? he demanded to know. She told me, Billy said. Sam Tobias didn't know what to make of this guy or his bombshell of an accusation, but the next day he got his attorney on a three-way call with Billy Ash

and had him tell the story again. After the call, Sam made a call to the Jupiter PD. They sent a couple of investigators to take a statement from the online psychic. And then, a few weeks after Seth Tobias' death, his loved ones got together at an attorney's office for the reading of his will. Seth had made the will back in May of 2004, a year before he married Phyllis, and for some reason, he'd never updated it to include her. As written, Seth's will divvied up his $25 million estate between his brothers, his parents, and a few friends. But here's the kicker. In Florida, if you don't update your will after marriage, that's the one. makes the document null and void and makes your surviving spouse your sole beneficiary. Isn't that

insane? That's crazy. I had never heard of that before. So now, because Seth just got busy and didn't think to rewrite his will after he got married again, something that my ADHD ass would absolutely do, his family were going to get zero dollars of the money that he'd wanted to leave them. And Phyllis was getting it all. That's like a Black Widow's dream. Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah, the law's doing the work for you. Why would that be, why? That law just doesn't make any sense. Like, who's that protecting?

The wife, I suppose. Yeah, it's very strange. It's very strange. Yeah. So Phyllis was getting it all. She'd filed papers to make sure she would. Phyllis, who says had been right on the verge of divorcing, and who Billy Ash was alleging had murdered their brother with poison pasta sauce.

Oh my God. Like, can we stop for a second and just talk about what a soap opera this case is already? Like, wasn't this a plot on all my children? I'm pretty sure it was. So as anybody would be, Seth's brothers were furious at the thought that Phyllis was going to walk away with their brother's entire estate. And thanks to Billy Ash, they had some pretty strong ammunition to bring to court against her. They filed a motion to prevent Phyllis from collecting on the inheritance. The basis for this, they argued, was the Slayer statute.

Y'all know what that is, right? It blocks a murderer from getting any financial benefit from their crime. Phyllis hired a dream team of attorneys to fight them, and the battle was on. And in the midst of all this, our boy, Ask Billy, was chatty Kathyon up with every reporter he could get on the phone. He told them all the sordid tale of Phyllis and the poison spaghetti sauce, and he said he had a tape recording of Phyllis admitting to the whole thing. He also added some additional spice to the story. Phyllis' motive wasn't just financial, Billy claimed. She was also pissed off because Seth was living a double life, and not just any double life, a gay one. This really is the plot of a soap opera.

Absolutely. It is. And by December, the New York Times picked up the story and slapped it right on the front page of their business section. Billy had told them a hell of a tale. According to him, Phyllis had told Seth she'd set up some sexy time for him and a male stripper slash porn star named Tiger. That was how she got him into the pool that night of the murder, Billy claimed. He thought Tiger was going to join him and Phyllis was going to watch. Later, Billy elaborated on this with reporter Stephen Roderick. He said Phyllis had the bag of crushed Ambien because Seth used it to come down off of cocaine.

And on the night of the murder, with Seth thinking Tiger was on his way over for sex, Phyllis dumped the Ambien into Seth's pasta and fed it to him. Then she waited. After a while, she stopped hearing splashing from the pool, so she went out and checked on Seth. She found him floating on his back, unconscious, but still breathing, Billy said, so she turned him over, face down in the water, and just left him to drown. Everybody wanted to know. Dude, how do you know all this?

We talked and texted 10 times a day, he told Stephen Roderick, I knew everything about her. And, in fact, Phyllis's phone records showed an awful lot of calls between her and Billy in the week after Seth's death, including one that lasted almost an hour and a half the day after. Billy had plenty to say to anybody who would listen. He claimed Phyllis met Seth at a sex party, and that their marriage was never about love. It was more of a business arrangement, Billy said. She was just sort of a trophy wife she could trot out at work functions to disguise the fact that he was really into men. I think they had sex maybe twice, he told Roderick. Reporters were, of course, crawling all over the story, trying to corroborate all of the little parts of it.

A New York Times reporter dug up a source who said Seth and Phyllis did use to come into a popular gay bar a lot, a place where they played hardcore gay porn on the TVs behind the bar. Tiger danced there, the guy said, a hot blonde guy with Tiger stripes tattooed all over him. One reporter managed to find out Tiger's real name and get an interview with him. Tiger was married by now and had a new baby, but he was willing to talk. At first he claimed he didn't remember Seth Tobias, but once Billy Ash and his murder accusations really started hitting the media, Tiger changed his story. Oh yeah, yeah, now that I think about it, I do remember Seth. He said he'd had sex with Seth a few times and that he was a good

guy, but when the reporter asked him if he had any texts or emails or pictures or anything to prove he knew Seth, he said no. Did Seth Tobias have a secret gay life? I don't know. Sources vary about this. Some people say, yeah, he was by and his wife liked to join him at the gay clubs, but in the end, who cares? That's his own business, and it doesn't really matter to the story. We know Tiger was nowhere near Seth on the night he died. He was in Vegas. Meanwhile, Billy Ash was embellishing his story with even sparklier details. He told the daily news that Phyllis had paid a lady named Madame Simby Maru, aka Mama, a hundred grand to put a hex on Seth before he died. Mama, of course, was a voodoo priestess.

Nobody ever managed to track Mama down, though. Just another dead lead, courtesy of Mr. Ask Billy, Internet Psychic. For her part, Phyllis vehemently denied murdering her husband. And interestingly, despite the bombshell Billy's story was for Seth's family, the investigators never put much stock in it from day one. Part of that was because a lot of it just didn't add up for them. And part of it was because Billy had some supersized skeletal. in his own closet.

He was a convicted felon who'd gotten in hot water for fraud on multiple occasions. And some of the stuff was gross. Like, while he was working at a counseling center for people with AIDS, he called up the National Enquirer, told him he worked there, and then made up a story about Tina Turner being a patient there. Oh, my God. Like, what an asshole. He'd also once scammed a bunch of vendors out of thousands and thousands of dollars worth

of goods and services by telling him he was a part. party planner, throwing a shindig for the guy who owned the Miami Dolphins, and, of course, he stiffed them all on the bill. He'd also allegedly worked with legendary Hollywood Madam Heidi Fleiss running an escort service, called himself Mr. Madam, like Mr. Mom, I guess. He'd actually served prison time in the late 90s for his time in the escort trades, so yeah, the guy didn't exactly have a track record of scrupulous honesty. And it didn't help his case that Seth Tobias' secretary had told the investigators about Billy's attempt to extort Seth a couple months before his death, or that he kept telling people he was the Tobias' personal assistant,

despite having no proof he'd ever been in the same room with either one of them. Or that he'd apparently been trying to get 35 grand worth of legal fees out of Phyllis's attorney after Seth's death, and only started making allegations when they told him to heck off. And despite one or two suspicious-sounding things, like Phyllis having the pool drained and resurfaced a week after Seth's death, and the toxicology report coming back positive for Ambien and Coke, nothing else Billy said seemed to have any weight to it. For all the hubbub Billy Ash had created, and the storm it had caused in the lives of Phyllis and the Tobias brothers, the story soon started to unravel. Nobody in Seth's circle had ever met

this alleged personal assistant. The only people who had heard the name Billy Ash were Seth's secretary and his attorney, and they just knew him as the fake online psychic who tried to extort him. And for all his talk about a taped confession, Billy Ash was never able to produce one. Finally, after months of investigation, Palm Beach County State Attorney Marianne Duggan announced that Philomena Phyllis Tobias would not be charged with any crime in the death of her husband. Based on the evidence available at this time, including the autopsy and toxicology reports, she said, there's no indication of criminality in the death of Mr. Tobias. The lawsuit with Seth's brothers dragged on for a while, even after Phyllis was cleared of any involvement in her husband's death.

But finally, in June of 2008, the parties reached a settlement, the details of which weren't made public. From the judge's comments, it sounds like one of those deals where nobody's really happy and nobody's really miserable. I guess that's what we call compromise. You know, that's what we call a good compromise. Billy Ash retreated back into relative obscurity where he belongs and we hope he's been keeping. deep in his nose clean. No idea if he's still claiming to have psychic powers. And I'll leave you with this delightful little tidbit. Phyllis recently went viral for flipping somebody off at a Miami heat game. And the picture is bonkers. She's just like crazy eyes like bra with the middle finger up.

Nice. So obviously our girl is still going strong. Okay, so moving on now to case too, about another psychic who really should have seen the storm clouds coming this one. We're calling this one like a bad penny, the story of Bob Nygaard and Gina Marie Marks. For this one, we're in Boca Raton, Florida, where Private Eye Bob Nygaard had a problem. The problem was a dame. As he stepped into the bar from the oppressive, humid heat, he adjusted his fedora in his suit jacket. He wasn't quite sure what this dame would look like, but he knew he'd recognize her when he clapped eyes on her. His years as a transit cop with the NYPD hadn't prepared him for this kind of case.

He was there, in his words, to land a date. Bob Nygaard looks and sounds right out of central casting for a private investigator, bald with a goatee, never without his signature fedora, and a New York accent to end all New York accents. You can just imagine him saying stuff like, I'm walking here. He'd been with the NYPD for 21 years, where he'd cut his teeth on bunco crimes or confidence schemes. These are the types of cons you see at subway stations or on,

city streets, like card tricks, shell games, dice, stuff that relies on a little slight a hand and a lot of charisma. When he retired and moved to Florida to relax and enjoy his pension, he lasted three months before the boredom got to him. So he decided to become a PI. And that's where we find him in 2008 at the bar, trying to land a date one muggy evening in Boca Raton. While there, he met two women having a post-shift drink. They started chatting, and he learned that they were in health care, a nurse, and a doctor. Cove's and nurses get along like peanut butter and chocolate. I bet they shut the bar down.

Well, they kind of did. Bob and this pair of women started swapping war stories, and Bob mentioned that his specialty in the NYPD was in catching con artists. He specifically mentioned that one of the most nefarious cons was the psychic scam, and that people can be taken for hundreds of thousands of dollars before they even know they're being scammed. The scam itself is kind of brutal. If somebody's going to see a psychic about something they're insecure about, like a death or an illness in the family, a worry about their career, relationship issues, then obviously they're more likely to be vulnerable.

The psychic will tell them there's a curse on them in their family, usually with some kind of hokum. One crowd favorite is for the psychic to poke a small hole in a raw egg and add some bright red cayenne pepper, then shake the egg up, secretly mark that egg, and place it in a pile of other eggs. Then later, in front of the client, the psychic grabs the egg, seemingly at random, holds it in a cloth and smashes it dramatically, making the cloth and the egg look bloody. And that, of course, is proof of a curse. Ooh, scary. But, I mean, you can imagine it would be friggin, like, terrifying.

She smashes an egg and when blood comes out of it, like, that's going to make an impression. And especially if it's built up, like, you see they pick other eggs and they're not bloody like that and they pick the egg for you and it's bloody. It's a whole, it's a very big production. Yeah, and I wouldn't even know how to poke a hole in an egg, like without just completely, like, so it probably would freak me out. I'm just going to be honest about it. The doctor seemed very interested in what he was saying. And at the end of the conversation, happily took Bob's business card and the two women left together. Ten minutes later, Bob got a phone call.

It was the doctor. She asked him to meet her at a nearby gas station. Now, he wasn't quite sure what she wanted, but he's a dude. So he went, post-haste. And when he got there, she wanted to tell him a story, one she'd never told anyone before. She'd been scammed by a psychic, and Bob's stories sounded exactly like what had happened to her. The doctor's marriage had been on the rocks, and she was worried about her kids. so she went and saw a psychic.

The psychic told her that her family was cursed and that only she could help her get rid of it. Psychics operate on a combination of cold reading and warm reading. If someone's more vulnerable, like a woman that may be going through a divorce, they'll sense that and pick at it, like it's a big, glowing weak spot in a video game. The first reading is usually like $100 or less, but then further research will cost clients another couple hundred bucks.

These are the tester fees to see if they've got a live one. Then, like any good scammer, they hit their victims with a sense of urgency. They're cursed. Everyone they love is in danger. Only the psychic and their church can help. How do you remove a curse, do you ask? Well, money. Of course, it's money. Money is the root of all evil, but don't worry. We're not keeping the money, they tell their victims. They're just using the money as metaphysical bait for the curse. once that's all over with we can give it back to you no problemo no curse no loss of money what do you have to lose now do you really think anyone gets their money back in these scenarios uh of course not the doctor ended up giving the psychic over twelve grand in cash and never saw another penny again after it was all said and done she was too embarrassed to report it to the police how could she believe something like that she's a doctor for god's sake she was embarrassed I think it's really easy to forget how these types of criminals target their victims.

They go after people at their lowest point, at their most vulnerable. Like, this woman had two young daughters, her marriage was ending. She was terrified that she was ruining her kids' lives. And she just needed somebody, anybody to tell her it was going to be okay. And instead, she found a predator. I know. That's why it's so disgusting to me. It's like you're picking on the people at the worst moments of their lives.

It's just gross. And Bob's passion about the seriousness of confidence schemes made this doctor feel safe enough to open up about her sort of dirty little secret, and he told her he'd do everything he could to make sure this psychic saw justice. He kind of grinned at her before she left and placed his fingers at his temples. He said, let me guess. Was her name Marx? The doctor's jaw drops. Like, yeah, her name is Gina Marie Marks. How did you know that? Bob just laughed. It's because I'm psychic. He went on to explain. explain that Marks is a really common name among psychics. That's true. A lot of them are Rose Marks, Linda Marks, Michael Marks. You can look all them up. They are notorious psychic scammers.

Yeah, I think it's just because they're Romani and so they have similar last names. It's not like they're taken on the mantle or anything. Yeah, yeah. The family biz. Bob hit the ground running, looking for this Gina character. The doctor heard about her through her maid, who found out about her through some women at her nail salon. It turns out, he didn't really have to flip too many rocks to find out about her. She came from a notorious Romani crime family. Bob compares criminality in the Romani community to criminality in the Italian community, which I think is probably pretty accurate if you're going to compare that to you. Like, not every Italian is a made man. In fact, most aren't. I also really appreciate

that he's like, whoa, let's not paint with broad brushes here. Oh yeah, he's very clear about that. So, Jean and Marie Marks had been mixed up with the police before, but had been given a slap on the wrist as long as she gave the money back. No real consequences, and that didn't account for the people who were too ashamed to come forward. Nothing

that prevented her from doing it again. Her lawyer, Jim Lewis, I swear to God, called her a life coach for women. Wow. Thanks, Jim. Why don't you life coach these nuts? So anyway, you know, being a bad psychic isn't a crime. You can take money to make bad predictions all day long and not get arrested for it. But when you take money, promise to give it back and then don't, that's a problem. In Florida, theft of over $300 is a third-degree felony. Unfortunately, psychics tend to deal in cash, so that's an additional layer of difficulty in prosecuting them. Bob gathered all the women at the nail salon and found out they'd all been scam.

by Gina as well. Between all six victims, including the doctor, Gina had stolen 65 grand. One victim, who's a professional athlete, spoke to one of our sources on this case, pink-collar crimes on the condition of anonymity. She called herself Val. Her pet bird, by the way, spent the entire interview on her shoulder. We love Val. Anywho. When she went and saw Gina, her son had just been diagnosed with autism and she was worried about her son. And so she goes and sees Gina and Gina lives in this palatial mansion with her husband and two kids. So Gina glommed on to the fact that Val was worried about her son and told Val that her son was cursed. Gina gave the woman a blessed banana that her son could eat and would be cured.

I know. It's hard to, it's hard to swallow. It's hard to swallow. It's hard to swallow, but it's, when you're a mom and you're scared, they're good at it. They're good. It's unbelievable. Gina demanded that Val sent hundreds of dollars of gift certificates to her to help God heal her son. And when Val would question why, Gina would tell her that she was putting her son's well-being in jeopardy.

Evil bitch. Yeah, Val got taken in by Gina's lip service to God. Gina told her that God would cure Val's son if they let him. A lot of psychics do pretend to have connections to the Christian God to pray on people's faith. It's just another way to get people to let their guards down. A lot of religious people might associate psychic practices with Satan, but if their powers are approved with God or the church, then they must be true. Throughout this entire process, Val was slowly cut off from her support system.

She was told not to mention it to anyone, lest it jeopardized Jesus's definitely real, holy plan for the gift cards. Why would friendship interfere with anything Jesus is doing? Wasn't friendship Jesus' like whole thing? He had 13 of them. He was making friends all over the place. One of them liked him so much she washed his feet with her hair. You know, Jesus always had strong opinions on gift cards.

We all know the one where Jesus fed the multitudes by giving them all Amazon gift cards. It's in the Bible. Look it up. Once Val ran out of money, Gina ghosted her. And without Gina breathing down her neck every day, Val could text her friends. And turns out they all got got. Oh, boy. And Val was furious.

She called Gina up and told her that if she didn't give her her money back right away, she'd call the police. Gina said, okay, okay, I can give you some money back. But I haven't picked it all up from the church yet. So I can't give it to you now. Do you have a car or drive to the church? Val agreed to meet Gina at her house to pick up the money. Val told one of her guy friends about the plan and he was so freaked out for her that he said he wanted to go with her and that he'd hide in the trunk in case something went wrong.

That's a good dude. I know. So Val drove up, friend concealed in the trunk to Gina's house. Gina answered her door and handed Val a bag containing just a fraction of the money Val was owed. When Val went to walk away, Gina said, I'll call you when the rest of the money is ready. Yeah. Oh, sure. Not fucking likely, right?

Anyway, armed with this new information, Bob felt like he could present the case to the local authorities. The investigator felt that Bob did good work and sent it up to the prosecutor's office. Unfortunately, the prosecutors told the investigator that they'd make Gina give the money back and they could settle out of the court system. Bob was really frustrated, but if you've seen any film noir, you know you can't keep a good P.I. down, especially if he has a good dame by his side. The doctor that tipped him off to Gina's scam in the first place refused to settle. Good for her. Fight, fight, fight. Yes. So with that, the investigators were able to get a warrant out for Gina Marie Mark's arrest. When they went to go put the habeas gravis on her, though, she was in the wind. Her lawyer did call the police to tell them that

she planned to turn herself in after the holidays, which she did. Her lawyer is unbelievable. I never really understood why that's allowed. Like, get your ass back here. I'm sure your victims wanted to use their freaking money to give their families a nice Christmas. And instead, you're using it to do God knows what for the holidays. She's just life coaching.

It's a life coach, Katie. You know, that alone is a little bit of a red flag for me. You know, you show me as somebody who's calling themselves a life coach. I'm going to show you a hot mess. Not always. I'm sure they're exceptions. Sure. But like most of these people like, you got no business giving out life lessons.

It's just a, it's just a, it's just a like unsupervised way of like trying to be a therapist. Right. I have no qualifications for this, but I'm going to charge you for it anyway. Yeah. So, yeah. But, you know, blah, blah, blah, police resources, yada, yada, nonviolent crime, blah, blah, blah. I guess that's why they let you just turn yourself in after Christmas. But I agree.

I don't see why she should be allowed to have a nice holiday when she's robbed all these people of theirs. Screw that. Gina pleaded no contest to grand theft charges. She was sentenced to probation and had to pay her victims back in full. One condition of probation was that she could not offer psychic services to anyone.

One thing about con artists is they don't know how to quit. They've got a very specific set of talents and they're going to use them to steal your money. A couple of months after the conviction, another doctor calls Bob up and tells him that his sister has paid Gina Marks more than $300,000. God, that makes you want to throw up. Oh, my God. Bob told the state attorney right away, and because he'd done so much prior footwork, they could bring her in.

She was charged with fraud and violating probation. She was ordered to pay restitution again and sentenced to 18 months in prison. She only served half that before being released. In the meantime, Nygaard investigations had gotten the reputation for investigating psychic scammers. To this day, he's one of the world's premier investigators on those type of cases, which I just love. We love Bob. Shout out to Bob. He's passionate about it, too.

Like, you can tell when you listen to him talk. Yes. It would be five years before Bob Nygaard heard from Gina Marks again. He got a call from a woman in Maryland who told him she'd been scammed by a psychic named Natalie Miller. After doing some background, his jaw about hit the floor. It was Gina, Marie, Frick, and Marks. Before he could really get any feet on the ground, he heard from one of his confidential informants that she'd moved again.

She moved around quite a bit, wonder why, to Arizona, California, New York. He felt like his best source was the one who pointed him to New York, so he headed in that direction. Once he got there, though, he realized he just missed her. Gina had gone to ground, but just like the bad penny, con artists have a tendency to pop back up doing their thing, so he knew all he had to do was wait, and it didn't take long.

One of his CIs called him up and told him Gina was flying from Miami to Barcelona. So Bob booked a ticket from Miami to Orlando so he could get through security, and he hauled ass to the airport. While he was on the way there, he called up his contacts at the Miami-Dade Police to let him know. They said, go ahead, let us know when she's at the gate and we'll snag her. caper. I love it. Bob got to the airport and followed Gina and her husband through security. He was about 10 feet behind her the entire time. When he called up the police, they told him that the warrant hadn't been confirmed yet because it was coming from Maryland. It needed to be confirmed between

the two departments before it could be issued. So he's in the airport. He continued following her, but as he tried to get through security, the person in front of him got his bag stuck in the x-ray machine. It's like Murphy's law. There's always one guy at the airport, you know, that's like never been outside before and can't figure out how it all works. Yeah, it doesn't help that TSA changes their rules at every airport depending on the day. Do I put my laptop in the tray? Do I take my shoes off? Do liquids need to be removed from my bag? And they say it like it's common sense. And as someone who travels a lot between the same airports, it's not. They change every day. You're all right, Bob. No. Oh. Okay. Anyway, Bob gets to the gate Gina is supposed to be at. Her flight's about to board, and she was not there. Her husband is, but she is nowhere to be seen. Bob's heart stopped for a moment, but then she showed up and sat next to her hubby. If this was a different type of story, Bob would be doing a romantic soliloquy right about now, but it's not. So the Miami-Dade police eventually

did show up and put the habeas grabbis on our girl. Oh, last minute. Last second before she got on that plane. She pleaded guilty to more fraud charges and was sentenced to six years in prison. She should be out by now, I believe. We hope to God she's done with her fraudulent ways. If not, we know there's a watchman out there keeping us safe. Yay, Bob.

So, psychics, huh? Watch your ass if you're inclined to reach out to these folks. I'm willing to accept that there may be people out there with a very well-honed intuition with some ability in that way. And as long as they're not taking advantage of people with it, go for it. I'm all for it. But it can be tough sometimes to tell the good ones from the bad. So just make sure to keep your eyes wide open because the main thing the psychic frauds can see coming is a sucker.

Don't forget, by the way, the December 22nd episode of the Investigative Discovery Show Very Scary People will feature your girl Whitney here. It airs at 9 p.m. Eastern on Investigation Discovery and it'll be streaming on Discovery Plus and Max. So give it a watch and please, please be nice to me. It's my first time on TV and I suspect that I'm going to be watching it through my fingers. Okay. If anyone is mean to Whitney, they have to deal with me. Okay. Yeah, you don't want that smoke. Trust me. So that was a wild one, right? Campers, you know, we'll have another one for you next week. But for now, lock your doors, light your lights, and stay safe until we get together again around the true crime campfire.

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