True Crime Campfire - Episode 13: Matt Baker: Sinister Minister Part 1

Episode Date: November 22, 2019

To his congregants at Crossroads First Baptist, Matt Baker was their charming, relatable young pastor. He was energetic, he was great at firing up the young people, and he was married to an equally energetic and charming young woman, Kari. They had two beautiful daughters. A picture perfect young family.But as every true crime obsessive knows, looks can be deceiving--and a mask of Christian piety can hide a dark heart, capable of unimaginable horror. Join us for part 1 of this incredible story of lust, lies, and murder. Sources:Book: Deadly Little Secrets by Kathryn Caseyhttps://www.mysanantonio.com/news/local_news/article/Killer-s-in-laws-win-custody-fight-1468405.phphttps://www.cbsnews.com/news/48-hours-mystery-dirty-little-secrets/https://www.wacotrib.com/news/crime/mistress-testifies-that-matt-baker-told-her-how-he-killed/article_07715ba9-d27f-576d-a040-e92024871725.htmlFollow us, campers!Patreon: https://patreon.com/TrueCrimeCampfireFacebook: True Crime CampfireInstagram: https://gramha.net/profile/truecrimecampfire/19093397079Twitter: @TCCampfire https://twitter.com/TCCampfireEmail: [e-mail] a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/true-crime-campfire--4251960/support.

Hello campers. Grab your marshmallows and gather around the true crime campfire. We're your camp counselors. I'm Katie and I'm Whitney. And we're here to tell you a true story that is way stranger than fiction. We're roasting murderers and marshmallows around the true crime campfire. We all wear masks sometimes. We're not the same person talking to our boss that we are when we're with our closest friends. Some degree of putting our best face forward is natural. Necessing. harmless. But for some, the mask is there not for the sake of professionalism or putting other people at ease. For some, it's there to conceal a true face like the painting in Dorian Gray's attic. And if you're unfortunate enough to run afoul of one of these folks, the first time you see them without the mask might also be the last. Tonight we'll tell you the story of Matt Baker, a man whose mask of Christian piety, hit a heart so dark and malignant it would end up spreading pain and misery to everyone Matt touched.

This is Sinister Minister, the murder of Carrie Baker. So, campers, we're in Waco, Texas, April 8, 2006. A call came into the 911 dispatch. caller sounded calm as he said, yes, I think my wife just committed suicide. The dispatcher quickly got the caller's name and address. His name was Matt Baker and got an ambulance on the way. Matt said that his wife Carrie was on the bed. Her lips were blue or hands were cold and he'd found a note. Matt said, it says, I'm sorry, basically. He said Carrie wasn't breathing and he couldn't find a pulse, which I can only imagine how terrifying, like coming home and finding your spouse like that.

That's horrible. Yeah. It's just like the worst nightmare I can imagine. And the dispatcher asked Matt if he had seen what happened to her and he said, no, I just tried to push down on her chest and stuff came out of her nose. No, I don't know what happened. So the dispatcher said, okay, you need to lay her flat on the ground because I don't know if you know this campers, but PSA, you don't do CPR on a bed or on a couch. You got to lay people on a hard flat surface. So the dispatcher instructed him layer flat on the ground and then he started walking him. through the steps of CPR. And through this whole process of getting carried down onto the floor and beginning chest compressions, Matt Baker sounded totally calm and casual. He asked the dispatcher if he needed to go unlock the front door for the paramedics, but the dispatcher said, look, don't worry about that yet. It's much more important to keep doing CPR, which I think that alone is kind of odd. Like that's what you're focused on and not just please tell me how to get my wife breathing again.

Oh, I got to make sure these professionals can get in my house. Like, you don't want to stay with your wife, dude? You don't want to, like, solve the immediate problem of, hey, somebody's not breathing. So he said, look, I'll let you know when the ambulance gets closer. So he promised Matt that he would tell him when he needed to go and lock the door. And Matt suddenly said, oh, I have two kids in their bedrooms. And he asked the dispatcher if he would call Carrie's parents, Linda and Jim Doolan, to come to the house and be with the kids. He spelled out their names and he gave the dispatcher their phone number.

And the 911 guy stopped him and said, hang on. Are you still doing compressions? Now, you're supposed to do two compressions per second, which that, like, kind of flummoxes me a little bit, like how are you supposed to do two of anything per second? But, okay, like, you're supposed to do two compressions per second. 400 compressions in all before you start the rescue breathing. Yeah, so you're supposed to do it to the beat of Staying Alive. Oh, awesome.

Oh, uh, uh, stay in alive. And plus it adds a little festivity to the... To the situation, yeah. So, yeah, you're supposed to keep it in time with that song. Where you can tear by the mail. Like, do you and everybody starts dancing, except for obviously the person that's not breathing. He's probably not in the mooch. But yeah, anyway, so that's interesting.

And I guess the objective there is to, is it to get all the air that might still be in the lungs out of there? Is that what you're doing? If it gets to start up the heart. So keep the heart, okay. So you're kind of trying to massage like the heart and get it like moving again. I think, listen, I'm an English major. I have no idea what I'm talking about. I actually did get trained in CPR, but it was a lot of years ago.

It was probably 20 years ago, so I remember how to do it. I just don't remember exactly what everything does. So, anyway, 400 compressions, and then you start the rescue breathing. This is a physically taxing process, 400 compressions, as you can imagine. It takes several minutes. And Matt assured the dispatcher he was still doing the compressions, and this is despite like having this whole calm-sounding conversation with him over the phone. And the guy agreed, okay, I'll have someone call Carrie's parents and let them know that

they're needed to just make sure you're doing the chest compressions. and after a little while Matt said she's got foam or something coming out of her nose and then a moment later he said okay someone's at the front door I've got to go and so the dispatcher says okay you know and hangs up the phone now this is important campers somehow

EMS the paramedics had arrived about four and a half minutes into the 911 call this was before the dispatcher had told Matt that the ambulance was getting close before he told him to stop compressions and go unlock the front door so he had not yet said they're coming go unlock the door As far as the 911 dispatcher knew, Matt was still in the bedroom doing the chest compressions on Carrie.

That's where he said he was. But when the first responders arrived at Matt and Carrie's house, they found Matt Baker standing on his front porch with a cordless phone to his ear. The ambulance drivers had not been using the siren. The dispatcher had not told Matt that they were getting close. So Matt had no way of knowing that that ambulance was about to arrive. so that poses for me an interesting question why was he at the front door instead of performing CPR on his wife in the bedroom like he said he was yeah it's very curious isn't it whitney i think that's very curious yeah and what blows my mind is that does he think these people don't talk to each other i know well i think by now people probably know that

like you know since we called the thing sinister minister i doubt there's a lot of suspense at this point. Yeah. And we might as well just start calling him twat baker because that's, I'm dying to do it. Oh, God. Yeah, we should just get that started. But yeah, no, I mean, it just, it boggles the mind of like, it's incredible. It's a very stupid move for sure. This is very little effort. You can just see how much he despised her, but he wouldn't even perform chest compressions. And also, you can see that he's a bonehead who made boneheaded moves. So a police car pulled up shortly thereafter, and EMTs and a police officer named Michael Irving rushed inside to find 31-year-old Carrie Baker lying splayed on the floor of the bedroom, blessed her poor little heart. She had on a Snoopy T-shirt and underwear,

nothing else. That just gets you right in the gut, doesn't it? So first responders noticed that Carrie was cool to the touch, not breathing. Her pupils were fixed and dilated. Obviously, none of this is good. These are not good signs, but they wanted to do everything they possibly could to try to help her. So they hooked her up to oxygen, then a portable, defibrillator to try to detect a heart rhythm, but there wasn't anything. There was nothing to shock. So they resumed CPR. And as they worked, they noticed Matt seemed totally, again, calm and casual, as though they were there to discuss something totally innocuous, instead of engaged in a battle to save his wife's life. An officer spoke to Matt, who said that

earlier that evening, Carrie had asked him to gas up their SUV and rent a movie. He said he was gone about 45 minutes, and when he came back, he found the bedroom door locked. And she hadn't answered him when he had knocked. So he'd had to use a screwdriver to get in. And he found Carrie lying in the bed naked and not breathing. So he called 911. He said he dressed her while he was on the phone with the dispatcher so that the paramedics wouldn't see her naked, which seems like the kind of thing that a husband might do, right?

Right. And he showed the cops a note that he'd found on the nightstand. And this thing read, Matt, I am so sorry. I am so tired. I just want to sleep for a while. Please forgive me. Tell Kinsey and Grace that I love them very much. Tell my mom and dad that I love them too. I love you, Matt. I'm so sorry for the past few weeks. I want to give Cassidy a hug. I need to feel her again. Please continue to be the great dad to our little girls. Love them every day for me. I'm sorry. I love you. Carrie. Now, Cassidy was Matt and Carrie's one-year-old daughter. She had died seven years earlier after a battle with cancer. This entire note, it's important to note, including the signature, was typed, even the signature.

Next to the note on the nightstand was a bottle of Unisom, which is an over-the-counter sleeping pill, with two pills inside. Matt told the officer that Carrie was on weight loss pills and took Unisom every night to go to sleep, that she'd done that ever since Cassidy's death, so it was her nightly habit. And he said he didn't know how many pills had been in the Unisom bottle. There were two left now. he told him they'd both had a few drinks that night and they could see there were a couple of Bartles and James Wine Cooler bottles on the nightstand. Matt said Carrie'd never tried to kill herself before, but she had talked about it. He said she's been upset ever since Cassidy died.

And again, that was seven years earlier. And he said Carrie had been depressed and talking about suicide the past two weeks. So an officer who was participating in the rescue efforts while Matt spoke with the other officers noticed that Matt seemed to be continually changing his answers to their questions. Specifically, any questions that involved how long Carrie had been unresponsive. So he seemed to have kind of a wishy-washy timeline. Red flag. Right?

But I mean, I guess you could argue maybe people are flustered and they could get these things wrong. Right. But I think that combined with how calm he was and him being wishy-washy, that just doesn't fit. It's, you know, it's going to send a feeler. send your antenna vibrating most likely if you're right because if you're the type of yeah you can if you're going to be the type of person that compartmentalizes and you know it's calm under pressure that's fine but usually those people are very like fact driven and sure that's a good point i hadn't thought about that like you might not see both of those things in the same person interesting so the county

where waco was had no medical examiner so decisions about deaths were handled by a justice of the peace now these are elected positions and they handle stuff like marriages and small claims court. So officers at the scene called one of these guys, Billy Martin, who, let's say, generously, is perhaps not our favorite person, Katie, in this case.

This dude's background was in the DEA, the drug enforcement agency. He had no training whatsoever as a pathologist or medical expert at all, and yet, inexplicably, it was his job to rule on Carrie's cause of death and decide whether to order an autopsy, which to me is just

unbelievable but it's like that in some places. It blows my mind. I cannot deal with this. Just astounding. I mean, come on, really? You don't want somebody with medical training there to make that call? So anyway, it's about like midnight at this point or 12.30, something like that. So they woke this guy up. They called him at home, woke him up, and they explained the situation. They read him the suicide note, mentioned the, you know, the dead baby daughter seven years earlier, Cassidy, the fact that the husband was a Baptist minister, said she been depressed talking about suicide and based solely on those facts or quote unquote facts Billy Martin made the call over the phone that Carrie Baker's death was a suicide and he said there was no need for an autopsy I'm going to flip my desk so let's just take inventory here campers we've got zero evidence collected not the wine cooler bottles not carries clothes not the bedding, not pills or pill bottles, not the computer, only the typed, including the signature, suicide note. The officers at the scene took only eight total pictures. One of these showed a red raw spot on Carrie's nose, and her mouth looked really red and raw as well,

but that apparently didn't trouble anybody enough to do anything about it. And they didn't even talk to anyone that night, except Matt. So, now, I don't want to be unfair here. but bottom line, in my opinion, they heard Baptist minister, and that was pretty much it in their minds, which yikes, right? Yeah, yeah, so... You'll talk for a minute because I'm getting pissed off. Oh, I'm getting ready to go. So, ask people in Matt Baker's hometown what they think about the bakers, and you'll hear

stuff like, you won't find finer Christians than the bakers, and the last person I would expect to get into trouble for anything is Matt Baker. Now, Matt's mom, Barbara, can't remember ever, ever punishing Matt, which is like super unusual, right? I would think so. All kids get in trouble sometimes. So did Matt and the rest of the bakers have this sterling reputation because they were so, so squeaky clean? Turns out not so much. So, for example, In 1990, Barb got caught and ticketed for shoplifting. Oh, my. She did it again in 93.

More seriously this time, higher dollar stuff. She was fined about like $300 and she blamed it on Empty Nest Syndrome. That's a great. That's like the Twinkie defense. Empty, that will put that right up there with affluenza and the Twinkie defense. Yeah, perfect. So friends found Matt a little odd. He was expressionless.

He didn't show much emotion in any direction. And his mom, Barbara, had a reputation for being, as one acquaintance, described her, dower. But Matt had big plans for his future. He attended Baylor University, the same one that Carrie attended, though they ended up meeting in a different way, as we'll tell you about in a minute. Matt majored in church recreation, athletic training. He wanted to be a youth counselor. which is like kind of a scary thought, given what we're about to learn about him. He worked with a football team as a trainer, you know, like taping up ankles, that kind of thing.

He had a rep at Baylor for being this great Christian, and his perceived piety was the main reason why. When rumors began circling about inappropriate behavior with women, his fellow classmates wrote it off as boys will be boys. You know, just college stuff. The mask of Christian piety would continue to shield him from the consequences for years to come and would be a major factor in the murder of his wife, Carrie, at least in my opinion. Oh, mine too, most definitely. So this whole, quote-unquote, misunderstanding started one evening as Matt and a female fellow trainer at Baylor were cleaning up after practice.

They were alone together in the locker room, and Matt sexually assaulted her. He tried to overpower her and kiss her and groped her for several minutes while she tried to fight him off. Bless your heart. Now, we won't go into any more detail than that, but there's a fuller description of what this young woman went through in Catherine Casey's book, Deadly Little Secrets, and it was a violent, scary attack. Yes, definitely.

This was only the first of what soon became a pattern of predatory behavior by Matt Baker. And infuriatingly, there were almost no consequences for this attack on his fellow trainer. Isn't that just so depressingly familiar, campers? This is just, like, I'm sure a lot of. our female listeners were like, yep. Yep. Female and femme presenting. Yeah. I mean, everybody. Everybody. Everybody can be victims of sexual assault. But yeah, it's distressingly familiar. And I just, I wish you guys could see the look on my face right now. I'm just, I'm so exhausted with this crap. Yeah. And here's, and here's the thing is, you know, I don't want to be stereotypical,

but this happened in Texas at a Christian university. Yeah. I mean, this is, you know, part for the course. Yeah. So, anyway, he got a coveted internship in the Recreation Department of the First Baptist Church of Waco. Now, this is a job that would have him working with young girls and women at the summer youth camp. Oh, goody. Yay.

Oh, lest I forget, his mommy Barbara always defended his behavior, accusing any one. woman who reported him of lying. Get fucked, Barbara. Please. You're the worst. Absolutely. Okay. Okay, okay, okay.

I've got to step down off my soapbox. His mom makes me so mad. I just can't with Barbara. Oh, God, almighty. My heart is pounding. I know. I'm so mad at Barbara. I can't even.

You notice that we said women. So this is not a singular incident. Oh, no. This happened a lot. Oh, yeah. But, okay. Let's talk about Carrie for a few minutes. Because I need a break.

Yeah. So she grew up in a close Baptist family, the Doolens, mom, Linda, stepdad Jim. Now, Carrie never knew her bio dad very well. So Jim was basically her sole father figure. Her brother Adam, her cousin Lindsay, who was like a sister to her and her aunt's Nancy and Kay. Carrie was outspoken, funny, friendly, very caring, a person who gave herself. a lot. She had a bit of a wild streak for a while in high school, but then she got serious about her future and ended up at Baylor. She wanted to be a teacher. She met Matt one summer when they were both

working at First Baptist Church. She was impressed by Matt, and what a good, clean life he'd lived. Give me a break. Now, let's zero in on that good, clean life that Matt lived while he was working at First Baptist. There were two separate allegations from two women during that year or so that he was there, one from a young teen girl and one from a middle-aged custodian, both saying he'd cornered them and

proposition them for sex. Despite this happening twice, Matt's asshole boss's hot take was, well, it was a he-said, she-said situation, and God forbid we risk derailing a young man's career, right? So he stayed employed.

Of course, Carrie knew nothing about this. Not yet, at least. Now, Carrie's family was wary of Matt. Linda liked him, but she seems to be the only one that did. Matt seemed to want to stick to Carrie all the time. Almost as if he didn't want her to be alone with her family. Big red flag. That's a huge red flag, in my opinion.

That kind of controlling stuff. Right. And this is, again, campers, when your entire family, who are you are close with... Yes, yes, yes, yes. Doesn't like the person you are with. Redfly. Take stock. Take stock.

Definitely. Carrie's cousin, Lindsay, says that every time she saw Matt, he made a gesture. Like, he was going to squeeze her breasts. Yeah, I think I just threw up my mouth a little bit. I just made the gesture. Did anybody else make the gesture? Hon, ha, ha. It's not funny.

It's creepy and horrible, but if you don't laugh, you'll cry, literally. It's one of those where you're just like, and we all have like that creepy person in our life that likes to hug a little bit too, like much and too long and too hard. And you're like, back off creep. And that was absolutely him. Yeah. He gave her the creeps. Yes, I bet. But Carrie was in love.

Oh, Carrie. Both families thought she and Matt were moving way too fast, but they wouldn't listen and they got engaged when Carrie was only 20 and Matt was 23. both were still in college like where's the fucking fire kids why do people do it you're so young who's got a gun to your head there's literally

no reason to get married that young you don't have to get married when you're 20 you know that right but see if you're a Baptist girl if you're a good Baptist girl you do if you want to have sex because you're not supposed to do that before marriage so that's true

problematic don't get married that early just don't get married everyone of course here i am i got married at 25 i was actually the first love is the first of love is a lie you could tell which one of us is i do not endorse that particular opinion but i support you my friend thank you don't get married that young that was my point not just don't get married flat so matt and carrie were married in August of 1994. And by fall of that year, Carrie became aware of the allegations of sexual impropriety against Matt at First Baptist. And sadly, her reaction was outrage. Now, not at Matt, but at the women who accused him. I mean, they must be lying. This wasn't the Matt she knew. So there were

other women besides the ones I've mentioned too, which makes her position even more ridiculous. I mean, if one woman accuses your husband of something improper, you might be forgiven for giving him the benefit of the doubt. But when woman, right? Like, I mean, I could, like, if somebody accused my husband, my first reaction would be, they're 100% lying. I know this man, he would never do this. I mean, he absolutely would never do this. Yeah. But like, I get that. But then once it's like person after person, right? Right. It was woman after woman. After woman. After woman. Yeah. Yeah. That came forward. and you're still beating that drum girl there's some denial going on there yeah if it's just person after person after person come on i mean that that it becomes at a certain point an untenable position to hold that there's not something to this why would like five or six different people and i actually would like to clarify i do not believe that she ever that she knew at this point anyway or possibly even ever knew about the assault which was really scary at baylor this was

the first Baptist stuff, which was more like, you know, propositioning young women. Yeah. But he had this M.O. where he'd corner them. Yeah. And basically make them feel trapped. Yes, absolutely. He uses size against them and definitely. He's a complete predator.

Yeah. So Matt told her that the women had flirted with him and he'd rejected them, you see. And this was just sour grapes. And when Carrie's family saw that nothing happened to him at work, they figured that that must mean he's innocent. Right? Guilty people don't get to keep their jobs. Right. Well, that's the just world theory, isn't it? Right.

That we all like to think that the world makes sense and is just. Therefore, well, obviously, if there were anything to it, he would have been fired. So he must be innocent. It's a naive point of view. And keep in mind, these are, yeah, these are, you know, very good practicing Baptists. I'm sure they just can't fathom a world where something wouldn't be done. Yeah, exactly. Right. At a church of all places.

But, okay, despite all of that, the early days of the marriage were good. But Carrie's family could never have any time with just Carrie. And they continued to notice troubling things about Matt's character. Cousin Lindsay noticed that Matt seemed to enjoy taunting people. But he couldn't take it himself because he took himself very seriously. Seriously. For example, one time he got really mad when Linda and Carrie teased him for wearing women's fuzzy slippers, which, like, dude, this is the, this is the epitome of a dude I want to shove into a locker. Yes, absolutely. Shut the fuck up, dude. It doesn't matter. They're slippers. I'm sure they're very comfy. God.

But, and so he also always got really angry when he was questioned. Like, if Carrie didn't believe him, it meant she was disloyal. So in 1995, Matt decided to go into the seminary. Perfect. Right, right? Right up his alley. He resigned from First Baptist, much to the relief of all of the women who worked there, I assume, and took a job at the family YMCA. He soon graduated from Baylor and began running a children's wreck.

program at the Y. Carrie got pregnant with their first child around this time. And then six months after he started at the Y, he assaulted a young female student worker. This attack was really similar to the first one in the locker room at Baylor. And the only thing that saved the young woman from being fully raped was that the phone rang and spooked him. The young woman left for college a few months after without reporting what had happened. And soon, Carrie had her first daughter, Kenzie.

Oh, what a mess. And unsurprisingly, several more young women soon reported Matt for pressuring them to have sex and get your barf bags ready, campers, because he said to them, and I quote, I want your cherry. Your cherry. What are you 12? This is how Beavis and Butthead would hit on a chick that they thought, like, really wanted it if they had the nerve, which they never did. But that literally, like, that is something I would expect to hear Beavis and or Butthead say. I want your cherry. What the hell, man?

So not exactly smooth, are we, Matt? And then the first young woman that he assaulted at the Y came home from college and reported him too. And finally, finally someone gave him enough of a shit to fire him at last. Of course, Matt told Carrie it was all a big misunderstanding that he had just been trying to counsel the teens against sexual activity and they misunderstood. And Carrie, bless her heart, believed it.

just honey oh lord so yeah what a what a what a great misunderstanding that the teens got the opposite idea out of you yeah it reminds me of those creeps on that old show to catch a predator the ones that'll show up they think to meet a 13 year old girl or boy and then we'll say no no I just came to counsel them against going online and meeting older guys well then why did you bring you know wine coolers and condoms. What was it for a demonstration? What the hell are you talking about? Don't try and sell that crap to me.

So, anyhow, freshly fired for inappropriate sexual conduct with student workers at the Y in 1997, Matt enrolled in the seminary. Apparently, no one there bothered to do any kind of background check, or if they did, they weren't troubled enough by what they saw to not let him in. And Carrie went back to school about the same time to become a teacher. Carrie was desperate to be a good preacher's wife and seemed just in total denial about who and what her husband was. In fact, she told another woman who was about to marry a minister that women would make up lies about her husband because they had agendas and wanted him for themselves. So this was obviously her mental narrative of why Matt had been repeatedly accused of improper sexual conduct with young women because they must have agendas and want him for themselves.

Yeah, at a certain point, if that's just got to be pure, like, she secretly knows what's going on. Absolutely. I think it's the head in the sand syndrome, for sure. And here's the thing is, I'm sorry, what do you get out of marrying a pastor? Is there riches untold that I don't know about? In that community, you get a lot of clout. You're considered, I mean, they call pastor's wife's first ladies. I mean, it's, yeah, you get a lot of clout.

in the, you know, religious communities, like little small towns like that. And, you know, you're certainly a center of, of, like, the church life and, you know, social life. And if I recall correctly, his mother was, like, ridiculously proud of having a pastor. Oh, yes. Barber was just thrilled at pieces with her little golden boy who could do no wrong. Anywho, so Matt, unsurprisingly, made people uneasy. He asked personal questions. He hit on women and girls constantly. And throughout their marriage, Carrie's pattern was to get angry, not at him, but at his accusers, whenever he did something inappropriate.

And Matt ate this up. He would stand back and let her, you know, her do the arguing for him. Oh, I'm sure he got off of him. Oh, yeah. He loved it. He'd just stand back and let her argue for him. No one told Linda and Jim Doolin, Carrie's parents, about all these inappropriate interactions and attempted assaults. They didn't hear about the vast majority of these.

But Linda was concerned with how Carrie didn't seem to do anything without Matt and about the fact that Matt had no close friends of his own, which struck her as a red flag. Now, in November of 1997, their second child, Cassidy, a little girl, was born. And that same month, Matt's first assault victim, we're going to call her M, called Waco Police about her assault at Baylor. Detectives were really encouraging. They wanted very much to charge him with.

attempted sexual assault but unfortunately the statute of limitations had passed so they had to call her back and say we're so sorry but we can't prosecute him so yet again matt dodged consequences which is just and that kills me because you know the the uphill battle that um victims of sexual assault have absolutely usually and these guys were ready to go oh yeah the detectives were all for it they wanted to get him and you know she didn't hit any resistance or anything it had just been too long. Because, you know, it takes people, if a victim reports at all, it sometimes takes a while before you're emotionally ready, which is completely understandable. And unfortunately, then there's that statute of limitations, which, you know, arguably should be just not a thing that we do.

But anyway, that's a personal opinion. So anyhow, Matt took a job that spring as pastor at Williams Creek Baptist Church. It's a small town, small church, and people liked him right away. He wasn't a fire and brimstone preacher. He preached of a loving, forgiving God. I wonder why, by the way. Matt didn't seem to like to speak of the consequences of sin. And to me, that's not a surprise since he was very, very guilty of sin. And also because he'd never had to experience any of those consequences in his life.

Even his mom said, we never had to punish him. And Carrie quickly won the hearts of the congregation as well. She counseled a man in her Sunday school class. The guy said that he was struggling with being gay. and Carrie just told him, God will always love you and gave him a hug, which I want to cry. I got to tell you, I mean, obviously that's how we should all feel. And I don't think you should get a medal for just being a decent human being. But having grown up in a small town and, you know, a religious community in the South, I can tell you that this attitude is pretty rare in a Southern Baptist Church, unfortunately, or at least it was when I was growing up. I hope not anymore. Right. And it meant enough to this guy that he brought it up years and years later. It was a huge gift that she gave him that day. So God will always love you and gave him a hug.

So in early 1998, Carrie found porn on her and Matt's home computer. And her reaction, bless her little heart, was, how could this be? This doesn't make any, how could this get on our computer? And I mean, when I say porn, I mean like a metric buttload of porn. Like we're not talking about one or two pictures. It was so much porn that it was. slowing down the speed of the computer and when she asked Matt about it very innocently like I'm I have no idea Matt was just all uh I don't know who know we must have got a virus or something

and Carrie of course bought this hook line and sinker oh boy I know the 90s were a different time but just the concept of a virus that just downloads porn on your computer and that much porn usually if it's like a dudes have used that excuse though over the years And if it's like ransomware, that's a different story because sometimes ransomware does download porn onto your computer. But ransomware was not a thing in the 1998. Yeah, it was an unfortunate incident that she couldn't have maybe caught a clue at that point, bless her heart. But all was going basically well. And then on her first birthday, little baby Cassidy got sick.

And the doctor initially diagnosed its stomach bug and, you know, said give her fluid. She'll get better. but she didn't get better. She got worse. And eventually, they took her to the emergency room, and after a battery of tests, she was diagnosed with a brain tumor, which obviously meant that she had to have surgery, but surgery at that age when you're one-year-old is pretty risky.

So it was a rough time, as you guys can imagine. I'm sure any parents listening are thinking this is one of your worst nightmares. Carrie's cousin, Lindsay, in the midst of all this, brought her friend Aaron, who was 20 years old, to the hospital one day, to meet Matt and Carrie. They were pretty much living in the hospital for a while. And if your kid's ever been sick like that, you know you just camp out and you get to know all the nurses and doctors and everything.

And this hospital had a little lounge area where the pediatric oncology patients and their parents and families could sit and play video games. And so Matt was always out there playing video games. And when Lindsay and her friend Aaron got there, Lindsay went in to see Carrie and Cassidy and you could only let so many people into the room at a time because of germs and stuff, and they had rules about that.

So the friend, Aaron, went and sat next to Matt and this little, you know, bald, bless his little heart cancer patient, who was there playing video games with Matt. And with this little kid sitting right there, Matt propositioned this 20-year-old girl and said that the church had rented him a room so that they could be close to the hospital and that they had time to get there and back. He put his hand on her leg. He was rubbing her shoulders. Again, there's a young oncology patient sitting right there.

They're right outside Cassidy's room where his one-year-old daughter is gravely ill. His wife is right in there. And the really crazy thing is that when Aaron told her friend Lindsay about this later, Lindsay said, I knew he would. Like, she knew he would hit on her because that's just who he was. Which, like, gee, thanks, friend. I know, right? Like, you think you maybe could have given me a heads up, so I wouldn't have had to deal with that creepy crap. So, anyway, so Lindsay told her mom, Nancy, who was Linda's sister, and various family members discussed it, and eventually Carrie's grandma asked everybody, please don't tell Carrie because she was so worried about Cassidy, and the grandmother just felt like, look, that is not what she needs right now.

We can deal with it later. So everybody agreed to keep quiet about it. And Carrie and her mom, Linda, never knew about this. You know, I don't know that they made the wrong call there. It sucks. No. It's a sucky situation. Totally get it.

But like maybe after at some point you might want to have mentioned it, like not while your daughter's in the hospital, but like at some point. Right. So after a hard stay in the hospital and some touch and go moments, Cassidy rallied. And after about a month and a half, she came home. She still required a G-tube and other special. special care, but most people say that she really started thriving after she went back home. Interestingly, Matt's mom, Barbara, who according to Carrie's mom, Linda, barely even saw the baby during this time, is the one person who says she wasn't doing well, that she was still fragile.

Now, that's going to become important, so hold that in your mind, that Barbara, Matt's mom, was the one person who got the impression that this baby was not doing better. And then one night, Matt got out of bed around midnight to check on the kids. This was unusual for him to be the one to get up, especially for no reason, and check the children. But later on, he said that something just wouldn't let me sleep, and he wanted to check on them. And when he got to Cassidy's room, he found she wasn't breathing. So he screamed for Carrie to call 911, and they rushed little Cassidy to the ER, but it was too late. They were unable to save her, and this little girl passed away, which is horribly sad.

and I'm so sorry we have to tell you that. It's horrible, yeah. Now, I wish that that was all we had to tell you about this, but there is some stuff around Cassidy's death that I find really, really sketchy. Yep. Cassidy was supposed to wear a breathing alarm at night, but that night, as they got the kids ready for bed,

Matt had insisted that they not use it. She didn't need it anymore, he said. And Matt would later tell friends that they often left it off at night, but no, not according to Carrie. It was just that night. He convinced her that she didn't need it anymore. And Cassidy's oncologist was so freaked out and shocked at the news that her little patient had died that she actually called CPS because Cassidy had been doing so well that this trained specialist was stunned that this had happened. Hadn't expected it in any way, shape, or form.

So that's a red flag, right, when the doctor is that shocked. And then mourners at the funeral noticed some odd bruising on Cassidy's face. Now, they speculated that maybe this could have been from CPR, but it was strange. Also, Matt did not seem to be grieving at all. Now, again, people do grieve differently. People do present grief differently. But he really seemed to be giving the impression, and multiple people said this, that if he was feeling anything, it was enjoyment at all the sympathy and attention that he was getting.

And as a matter of fact, the only time anyone saw Matt display any emotion about Cassidy's death ever was when he was behind the pulpit. And it struck some people as performative grief. And then he'd be fine right afterwards, you know. People also noticed that when Carrie got upset in public, it was never Matt who comforted her. It was always one of her friends or one of her family. It was never him who put his arm around her and led her away or comforted her. Creepy. While Carrie was in the thick of her unimaginable grief, which I can't even conceive of how much that would hurt to lose a child.

Yeah, my chest is like crushed right now. I feel like it would just make you feel like you were losing it entirely. And in the thick of that, Matt constantly pressured Carrie for sex. And this obviously was the last thing on her mind, and it caused a lot of tension between them. And Carrie would sometimes kind of lose it and unload her anger on him. but she was a really strong person despite her grief. She went and she got herself counseling. She was determined

she was going to get through it. You know, she had another daughter and she was determined. So she kept getting involved in church stuff and she got counseling. Now Cassidy died in March of 99. In November of 99, Carrie announced that she was pregnant again and it was

another girl. Soon after that, she graduated Baylor with her degree in education, so her career of becoming a teacher was, you know, on track. And in July 2000, baby Grace was born. And Carrie was really starting to cope better with Cassidy's death. But she still had trouble at night. She had trouble sleeping.

That's when it would all kind of come crashing down on her. So in November, she went to the doctor and she asked for a sleep aid. The doctor prescribed Zolpidim, which is Ambien. It's a pretty heavy-duty sleeping pill. And she didn't like it. She didn't like how it made her feel. So she didn't ask for a second script. Instead, she started taking this over-the-counter unisome.

So I mentioned that because you remember, on the nightstand in the very first scene where we find Carrie dead, that's what was in the bottle. There were two little pills of unison. So problems developed quickly at the churches where Matt was pastor, and there were several of them from 1997 to 2005. The pattern was always the same. Initially, everyone would like this sort of fresh-faced young family. Matt brought a lot of energy to the pulpit. He was charismatic. He got young people involved with sermons that involved more stories than scripture. Then trouble would start, partly because of Matt's style, which was to very rarely reference the Bible and not include a lot

of scripture, and often contradicting and circumventing the church leader's wishes as well. So he would make really impolitic moves. Like he'd fire people who were really well established and well-loved, and Matt would often complain about and mock church members who bugged him and he could be vicious I mean just like a playground bully so he was good at giving sermons but not so much at the one-on-one stuff

with congregants and that's probably I would imagine about half the battle as a pastor you have to be good with people and he wasn't and not only that but he liked to stir up controversy he struck people as arrogant and people would catch him in lies which obviously is really troubling for a pastor but every time Carrie stuck

up for him. She told people you always have to back your husband no matter what, which is just Carrie, honey. No, you don't. What do you talk? Like, if your loved one is in the wrong, it's okay to tell them, hey, you're in the wrong. She didn't seem to understand that. Yeah, and I think part of, I think part of being in a healthy relationship is being able to look at the other person and be like, yo, you fucked up. Yeah. Like, nobody's perfect. You can recognize that your significant other has flaws and if they do something as messed up as a lot of the stuff he's doing then you need to call him on it if i was doing something like that i would want my husband to call me on it you know what i mean like don't let everybody start hating me because i don't see what a jerk i'm

being right and like oh maybe you shouldn't have called her a cow or something would have been fine or maybe just get in his ear and say hey everybody really loves that guy he's been in the church community for 25 years maybe don't make an enemy of him like that's helpful to your spouse not you know you should do that So, finally, her mom, Linda, just snapped one day and said, Carrie, do you hear yourself? How could this happen at every church? It can't always be that the church members are wrong. The common denominator here is Matt, which now somebody's talking sense, but Carrie didn't want to hear it.

Yeah, maybe it's him. Exactly. It's just really sad to me. It's infuriating, but it's also sad that she took that approach. Because that's not a partnership. No. Like you said, it's, you know, sometimes you've got to call people on their bullshit. On top of all that, Carrie confided in her friends about her and Matt's sex life.

It was a problem. She called sex her wifely duty, which is just really depressing. Matt wanted it a lot more than she did, and she didn't seem to like sex with him because I'm certain he was dreadful at it. Oh, yeah. Because any grown-ass man that says to somebody, I want your cherry, is just got to be dreadful at it. God, why did you have to say that again? I'm sorry. Because it's awful, and it fascinates me by how awful it is.

Just looking into the void. This is one of the things where we differ, because I, like, tends because I'm just an odd person, I guess, to just revel in the awfulness to some extent. Not because I enjoy it, but just because I find it like a train wreck. Like, I can't look away from this awful thing. And Katie's like, no, I'm with you. I don't think we really differ. I think I was just a bit.

I think it's funny. Because who the fuck? I want your cherry. I'm not going to start singing that warrant song, okay? I could have, but I won't. Oh, man. Well, we don't want to get a copyright. This is true.

Infringement. So, okay. In 2005, Matt got a job as a chaplain at a residential center for troubled, like, 13 to 17-year-old teens in Waco, which... Right. Yeah. Oh, no. Talk about a target-rich environment for a predator. So he quickly made a bad impression on his supervisor by bad-mouthing co-workers, charming.

Also, a coworker saw him coming in late and concealing it by coming in a back way and leaving early and lying about it. A very Christian of him, right? He's such a role model. So his assistant took polite issue with one of his decisions, which she correctly felt was against the center's rules. this dipshit literally said how dare you question me like he's sitting in the goddamn iron throne or something like he's an emperor I imagine he waved a hand as well how dare you question me

how dare you all right all right Joffrey okay so then he sent her just a super nasty email threatening to fire her for insubordinate nation. Which that's not how that works, dude, especially if she came to you privately. That's how you do it. You bring an issue to your boss privately and not in front of whatever. I could, I could scream about this all day. A co-worker also discovered that Matt was using sermons he got off of the internet. Oh, geez Louise. So now we can add plagiarist to creep and liar and sexual

predator and possible child killer. Great resume, Matt. He's a champ, this guy. And an old demon soon raised its head. Matt's assistant found out that when another co-worker had confided in him, the chaplain about some personal issues, he said, do you want to fuck me? Oh, my God. What in the hell? So indelicate. And not that it matters because whatever, but I have to know, like, did he ever think it was going to work? That's a really good question. Or did he just get off on making women uncomfortable? Yeah, I think there's definitely an element of hostility in that. Jesus.

So in October of that same year, Matt also started as a pastor of Crossroads Baptist Church, Carrie's parents' church. They helped him get the job, even though Linda had reservations about him as a preacher. Carrie was working as a third grade teacher by now, and she was much beloved. Her friends at the school Notice she hardly ever went out with them for social stuff And it was always Matt needs this I have to get home to Matt

Now campers Enter the catalyst Of the dark drama to come A 23-year-old blonde single mom Of a baby named Lily Named Vanessa Bowles We hate this woman y'all Oh you're going to hate her too

Vanessa was the daughter of Crossroads music minister, Larry. She was, like, irritatingly pretty in a conventional way, you know, like blonde, delicate features, big blue eyes. She grew up in a strict Baptist family. In college, she rubbed, like, a few people the wrong way. She seemed superficial. Like, she wasn't the Goody Two Shoes Christian girl. She, like, presented herself as. And she married a man 20 years older than her in 2004 and had Lily.

but separated a month after her birth. Her husband had filed for divorce after a paternity test proved Lily wasn't his. So she was living with her parents and pursuing an education degree through night school. So at a church potluck during Christmas, like the week of Christmas, Matt pulled Vanessa aside and asked if she'd ever considered dating her pastor. Oh, baby. Not only that, he said he'd have had a vasectomy, so he couldn't get her pregnant and assured her that he didn't have STDs. True romance, campers. I know nothing turns me on more than when a guy promises he won't give me any STDs.

Very clinically, very clinically tells me the state of his dick. Thank you, sir. I cannot. Anyway, I'm sorry. The fact that he walked up to her, very, like, straightforward was like, you ever think of dating your pastor? Yeah? I've had a sex to me. Can't knock you up.

Check. Don't have any STD. Check. Let's do this. So gross. Okay. So Vanessa asked if he'd done that before. And he said, oh, yeah, yeah, all the time.

quote unquote carries clueless he said so classy so that same month cracks began to show and matt and carrie's marriage they started fighting a lot you know etc etc the usual signs of infidelity started to appear he became more secretive by early february matt was calling the bull's home when Vanessa was there alone every year on the march anniversary of cassidy's death that was a sad day for Carrie. But this year, it seemed like it was hitting her harder than usual. She seemed stressed and preoccupied. She had some work stresses, and that made it harder.

But there was also this growing tension between her and Matt. Now, unbeknownst to her, he was already in a full-blown affair with Vanessa. Carrie knew something was up. She reached out to Matt in emails, apologizing for being down and telling him how much she loved him. And at this stage, at least, he responded with, I love yous and reassurances. Ugh, I hate this guy so much. This motherfucker was gaslighting her and making it her fault.

I can't stand this. So they always do. Yeah. So, yes. So the neighbors around this time started noticing a strange car pulling up to the Baker House on Fridays. The garage door would open. The car would drive in. and the door would close again.

Suspish. Soon sex, or lack thereof, started coming up and Carrie's emails to Matt. Matt wasn't interested in sex with her, which was pretty unusual for him. Scratch that, it was very unusual for him. This dude had a one-track line. People noticed the tension between them at public events. Now, as the anniversary of Cassidy's death approached, Carrie told people she felt really bad all the time. her hands were shaking her heart wouldn't stop racing it felt like it was pounding out of her chest

and she had this terrible anxiety matt sent concerned sounding emails asking if her blood sugar might be low if she was stressed about work never mentioning the stress he was causing her by being distant and ignoring her sexually in one he mentioned making her another chocolate shake that same night, sounded like that had become a routine lately. Hmm, hmm. Carrie seemed to have come to a place of acceptance with Cassidy's death, though, seven years after the fact. She told her mom that she wanted to do something to help grieving parents, and she seemed really excited about that prospect.

So it wasn't grief that was upsetting Carrie that March. It was her marriage. Emails between Matt and Carrie showed the tension. in between the I love yous were passive aggressive jokes that weren't really jokes. Sarcasm and obvious problems communicating. Matt gaslit her. He told her their issues were her fault. She'd been cold and hadn't fulfilled his sexual needs.

She was feeling this way because of Cassidy's deaths, not because of him. Then one day came in exchange that we think demonstrates the depth of Matt's capacity for coldness and cruelty. In response to a frustrated email from Carrie about his failure to open up to her, Matt sent Carrie an email that attacked her on every possible level. Yeah, and I'm just going to read some excerpts from this thing because it's quite long, but this is just astonishing. So he had been talking with her about, like, how, well, the reason you're feeling this way or the reason why we're having problems is because of Cassidy's death. And she was puzzled by that because she knew good and well in her heart of heart, so he was cheating. So this is him trying to divert from that, I think. So he says, I guess the whole idea about where Cassidy fits in

is the way in which I see her death as a defining moment on both of our lives. We will never be the same again. I know that you have told me a number of times that you prayed the night that she died, that you wanted her to be pain-free. I've never told you before what I did in her room at midnight when I went in to check on her. I guess this is part of the not sharing everything with you. I went to her bed and placed my hand on her back to make sure she was breathing. She was. She looked up at me briefly and went back to snoring quickly. I kept my hand on her back, and I prayed for her that night. I prayed that she would be cancer-free, and I prayed for her to start and finish school, graduate college, get married, and bring her family home for the holidays. I remember praying the words, please, God, make her well so we can have her here with us. Please, I need her. I don't know why I never told you this before. Maybe I didn't want to make you mad. You and I have discussed the fact that your prayer was the one that was answered that night.

I don't know why mine wasn't. I know deep down I hold a grudge against God and you for him answering your prayer and not mine. All I know, I know, isn't it? I'm sorry. It's bananas, isn't it? It's the meanest shit I've ever heard in my life. Like, it's unbelievably cruel. It's sadistic.

I mean, even if you had a thought like that, my God, the only reason you would ever share that with a spouse is if you just truly had lost any shred of feeling and act. wanted to hurt this person because I can't imagine a more painful thing short of losing your child than feeling that your spouse blames you for the death of your child like that because you prayed that she would be out of pain and he prayed more specifically that she'd be cancer free so therefore it's her fault what a fucking hero especially since like I'm very suspicious that he murdered this child yeah no that's dare you. That's going to be the true crime campfire stance is that he allegedly, allegedly, allegedly killed his own daughter. He's never been prosecuted for it. But I know we're certainly not the only ones to think of this. And in fact, as you see, Carrie started to worry as well, I think close to her death. Yeah. And I think that also something that just occurred to me is that he sent this to her while she was at work, knowing she was at work. Yeah, I know, right. And she had to read this and then go back to teaching day, which must have just been great. So I'll go back and read a little bit more of this.

awful thing. All I know is that I chased you for our entire marriage. You often did make me feel like you did not need nor desire me. I felt as though I was like the sperm donor for your children, and I was now the butler, cook, babysitter, etc. Although I know I am not good at keeping the house clean. We have always been friends. Jeez and freaking crackers. And then later he says, I do love you very much. Really? I love my family very much. My girls are my world. There is nothing I wouldn't do for my girls. Who, boy. And then he says, please forgive me if anything I say here upsets you.

I don't want to make you mad. Are you kidding me? How do you? Like, surely he knew. I think it's pure sadism, honestly. He wanted to hurt her. He's not sorry that he said it. He's sorry that it, like, he's sorry that her feelings got hurt.

I don't think he's sorry about any of it. No, but I'm saying what he said is he's, notice he didn't actually take acknowledgement. I'm sorry if you have hurt feelings. feelings. Fuck off. Learn how to apologize. I'm sorry if you felt bad.

I'm sorry you feel that way. Okay. So in Matt's world, he was the innocent party. He'd been cooking and cleaning and slaving like Cinderella and taking care of the girls while, you know, Carrie pushed him away and treated him like a sperm donor and just used him, which is horseshit. They had a very equitable division of labor according to everyone in their lives. It's just unbelievable. I mean, Carrie had been his biggest cheerleader for years, his biggest defender, sticking up for him. him when he didn't deserve it when people would challenge his decisions or his terrible

behavior and this was how he treated her now so carrie was flabbergasted as you can imagine and she talked to her mom and she said mom i'm going to divorce him i can't we can't come back from this after he said these things to me and linda who bless her heart remember did not have all the facts she didn't know about these sexual impropriety allegations the sexual assault allegations she didn't know that the dude was cheating on carry or that carry even wondered if he was and that had not been voiced between the two of them yet so linda did not have all the facts and she told carrie which she later came to bitterly regret that divorce wasn't the answer that they should try counseling you know and at the time all she knew was that carrie loved matt and she thought that he was

basically a decent man that he was a little bit weird but he was a man of god divorce is not smiled upon in the southern baptist community let's just put it that way but sometimes divorce is the answer so much absolutely it's it's just i can't imagine how she feels she really tore i'm sure has tortured herself over that so a couple days after that blistering email came the first indication that carrie suspected infidelity and this is from an email that she sent him haven't heard from you so thought i'd say hi maybe you're busy with your girlfriend's smiley face i love you and matt's response was a little masterclass in manipulation yeah babe i was hooking up with my girlfriend what's her name again love

you very much. It's Vanessa asshole, remember? You probably just talked to her. So apparently they'd had sex the night before he and Carrie and Matt had like busted out some new moves and an email showed that Carrie was wondering where he had learned them because that's a red flag.

Like if somebody just suddenly starts busting out some new stuff that you've never seen in your years long marriage, you might wonder where'd you pick that up? Especially if the porn on the computer isn't his. Right, which of course it still wasn't. So Sunday she emailed school to call in for Monday. She told her friend she was having panic attacks. Her blood pressure

and her heart rate were really high. And she wrote in a prayer journal that she had under the Bible verse Galation 6. Let no one cause me trouble for I bear on my body the marks of Jesus. Carrie wrote under that verse, Lord grant me peace. Calm my soul. I have so much worry and I can't get a hold on it. Lord, I'm asking you to protect me from harm. I'm not sure what's going on Matt, but Lord help me find peace with him. Now, that is stunning to me. I'm asking you to protect me from harm. I'm not sure what's going on with Matt.

What was she afraid of? It sure sounds like she was afraid of something. When Cassidy died, Carrie had questioned some things. She'd wondered if things would have been different if she'd been the one in Cassidy's room that night. And now, I wonder, was she thinking back to that night again and wondering in her deepest, darkest heart of her. parts what Matt might be capable of.

So we're going to stop there for part one, campers. Next time we'll get to the days and hours leading up to Carrie's murder, the aftermath and the police investigation and trial. But for now, lock your doors, light your lights, and stay safe until we get together again around the true crime campfire. You can follow us on Twitter at TC Campfire, Instagram at True Crime Campfire, and be sure to like our Facebook page. If you want to support the show and get access to extras,

please consider becoming a patron at patreon.com slash true crime campfire.