True Crime Campfire - Episode 28: Twisted: A Story of Stalking and Murder, Part 2

Episode Date: January 10, 2020

In part 1 we began the terrifying story of a campaign of stalking, harassment and threats against Dave Kroupa and his ex-girlfriend Liz Golyar. Dave had met a smart, confident woman named Cari, and they were getting along great with a casual, mutually-agreed upon “no strings” relationship. But when Cari texted Dave to ask him to move in with her and he refused, the angry harassment began. And it escalated to a horrifying level when Cari burned down Liz’s house. Cari seemed to have abandoned her whole life in pursuit of her obsession with Dave—so much so that her family stopped hearing from her except for a few sporadic emails and texts. The only silver lining was that the stalking seemed to have brought exes Dave and Liz closer together, as their relationship reignited in the midst of their shared terror. How will all this end? Join us now for part 2 of Twisted: A Story of Stalking and Murder. Sources:Oxygen's "Snapped," Episode "Liz Golyar"NBC's "Dateline," Episode "Scorned"https://www.omaha.com/news/crime/judge-finds-shanna-golyar-guilty-of-first-degree-murder-in/article_50c7fec2-4089-11e7-9a4e-8f0f741d814f.htmlhttps://www.omaha.com/news/crime/woman-convicted-of-killing-impersonating-romantic-rival-asks-nebraska-supreme/article_104e6d58-6918-5fda-930c-d79d938ae511.htmlhttps://www.kearneyhub.com/news/state/supreme-court-rejects-appeal-in-bizarre-case-of-woman-who/article_ce39913e-e4fe-11e8-b0ec-5f51cd7e3668.htmlFollow us, campers!Patreon: https://patreon.com/TrueCrimeCampfireFacebook: True Crime CampfireInstagram: https://gramha.net/profile/truecrimecampfire/19093397079Twitter: @TCCampfire https://twitter.com/TCCampfireEmail: [e-mail] a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/true-crime-campfire--4251960/support.

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Hello, campers. Grab your marshmallows and gather around the true crime campfire. We're your camp counselors. I'm Katie. And I'm Whitney. And we're here to tell you a true story that is way stranger than fiction. We're roasting murderers and marshmallows around the true crime campfire. So, campers, in part one, we began the terrifying story of a campaign of stalking, harassment, and threats against Dave Krupa and his ex-girlfriend, Liz. Goliar. Dave had met a smart, confident woman named Carrie, and they were getting along great with the casual, mutually agreed upon, no-strings relationship. But when Carrie texted Dave to ask him to move in with her and he refused, the angry harassment began, and it escalated to a horrifying level when Carrie burned down Liz's house. Carrie seemed to have abandoned her whole life in pursuit of her obsession with Dave, so much so that her family stopped hearing from her except for a few sporadic emails and texts. The only silver lining was that the stalking seemed to have brought

exes, Dave, and Liz closer together as their relationship reignited in the midst of their shared terror. How will all this end? Join us now for Part 2 of Twisted, a story of stalking and murder. So over the next couple of years, the harassment of Dave and Liz would occasionally flame back up for a while, then die down again. And then, on December 4, 2015, Liz Gollier showed up at the Pottawatomie Sheriff's Department to file a complaint. And this story was about to get more complicated and a lot weirder. Liz's complaint wasn't about Carrie Farver. It was about a woman named Amy Flora. Now, if you recall, Amy was Dave's baby mama, the one.

he was with for 12 years before he met Liz. Liz said that a few weeks earlier, she'd started getting emails and Facebook messages from Amy, threatening to beat her up, calling her names, telling her Dave didn't love her. She loved Amy. And the thing was, the tone of the messages and the bad grammar and spelling,

they were eerily similar to the messages that she and Dave had gotten from Carrie over the years. In fact, more than eerily similar, almost identical. Creepy, right? Oh, so creepy. And Liz had started thinking, Carrie and Dave had only dated for a few weeks before all this started.

He'd been with Amy for 12 years, and they had two kids together. Why would somebody who'd only known Dave for a few weeks stalk him for years? So what you're telling me is that Liz basically had to be her own detective on this. and, like, do all this investigative work herself. Come on, Fivo, what's the deal? She was starting to think that it made more sense that Amy might have been the one doing the stalking all along. So, holy shit. Holy shit.

And investigators realized there was some logic to this. And they realized that if Amy Flora had been the one responsible for the harassment all along, it was also possible that she might have had something to do with the fact that Carrie Farver's family hadn't seen her in years. So again, holy shit! Holy shit. So they were starting to get a bad feeling, I'm sure, a sick sinking feeling. I'm sure a feeling like, why has this never occurred to us before? And they asked Liz to forward them all the harassing messages she'd gotten from Amy and Liz said, sure.

Now, the day after Liz made that complaint was the day she was shot in the leg. You remember the 911 call at the beginning of episode one, right? And, of course, you know, we've heard that part already. So once at the hospital, they rushed Liz into surgery. The gunshot was on her thigh, and the two surgeons who worked on her differed as to what the entrance wound was and what the exit wound was. Sometimes she can't tell. Right. And Liz had lost a lot of blood, and she was in surgery for hours.

But eventually the doctors were able to stabilize her and remove the bullet. And it seemed like she was probably going to be okay. And once she came out of surgery and was awake enough to talk, investigators took her statement about what had happened. So Liz had gone to Big Lake Park to walk. It was her stress relieving thing, which kind of helped her clear her head, which I can relate to 100%, because that's my stress reliever too, is going for a walk. I really miss it when I can't do it in the winter.

her, it just kills me. So Amy told police that someone had suddenly come up behind her and stuck a gun in her back. And a woman's voice had said, get on the ground. And so once Liz was face down on the ground, the woman had said, how do you like fucking Dave? And the next thing Liz knew, she heard a gunshot, she felt a searing pain in her leg, she heard another gunshot, and then running footsteps. And the detective interviewing her said, well, was it Amy who shot you? And Liz said, yeah, I'm pretty sure it was. So armed with this, police rushed to Amy Flora's home and found her there with her and Dave's two kids. She denied everything. She swore she was nowhere near the park when Liz got shot. Police canvassed her neighborhood and a neighbor said Amy's car had been in the apartment

complex parking lot for the past couple of days. and hadn't left, seeming to corroborate Amy's denial. Hmm. Yes. Of course, eyewitness testimony is pretty much garbage. It really is. Yeah. And suspects don't tend to want to tell the truth.

So none of that means a whole hell of a lot necessarily. So police needed to dig deeper. So they hauled Amy in for a polygraph examination. which she failed. Yikes. Red flag. Yeah. But Amy still vehemently denied any involvement.

So they went back to their treasure trove of evidence. All those harassing messages from Carrie to Liz and Dave. And they struck gold. There was a YouTube account in the name of Carrie Farver, and on that channel was a video taken from a car that was driving slowly, creepily around Dave Krupa's apartment complex. Yeah, more creepy stalker stuff. It was labeled like husband's cheating place.

Oh my God. Yeah. Most of Carrie's texts and emails showed that the writer had been using various technologies to hide their true location. But on this one YouTube video, taken from a cell phone camera, the user had fucked up and used their actual IP address. Oh, dear. Oopsies.

Y'all guess where the trail of cyberbreadcrums leads right to the front door of Liz motherfucking Gullier. Oh, my God. There were dozens of email accounts, cell phones, and social media accounts attributed to Carrie Farver, and one by one through painstaking forensic computer analysis, investigators were able to trace them back to Liz. She had been impersonating Carrie for years, sending threatening and harassing messages to herself and to Dave, sending messages to Carrie's family. And this campers is what we call desperate. Yikes. Who boy. Yeah, so if Liz was the one responsible for sending the messages, who was responsible for setting Liz's house on fire? Who was responsible for shooting her?

Police discovered that at one point that winter, Dave had reported a gun stolen from his apartment. Shortly thereafter, Liz had made the complaint about Amy Flora threatening her, and the shooting happened the next day. this woman had burned her own house down. Oh, my God. Jesus. Trackers. And by the way, content warning for animal cruelty. So if you want to fast forward about 30 seconds, we'll understand.

Liz's pets had died in that house fire. She set that fire and left those animals there to die. Which makes me want to murder her in cold blood, to be perfectly honest with you. This is... I'm so angry. Yep. Yeah, this bitch. What a shit stain.

Yeah. And then, of course, she'd shot herself in the leg. Yep. All to frame Dave's ex and baby mama Amy. And if all this was true, where the hell was Carrie Farber? Y'all know why we called it twisted now? Yeah. Yep.

Uh-huh. Minds blown, the investigators hatched a plan to trap Liz. I know my mind is blown. Researching this case made me feel a little crazy. So they called her in front of an interview once she was home from the hospital. They said, look, Liz, we found some human remains. We think they might belong to carry. If Amy was willing to shoot you, we strongly suspect she might have done something to carry, too.

She probably killed her. So would you help us catch her? And remember, police are allowed to use ruses like this. They are allowed to lie and say, hey, we found a body even when they did not. Right. So they asked her, would you try to press her for information about Carrie? If you could get her to tell you what she did to carry, we could nab her for murder. And Liz said, sure, I'll try my best.

She just wanted to be such a helpy helper. I mean, she basically did the whole investigation herself. So, lo and behold, it didn't take her long to call back and say she had what they needed. Amy had sent her an email, she said, confessing, bragging about killing Carrie. The email was graphic, extremely detailed. Amy had come over to Dave's apartment after he left for work on November 13, 2011, that week that Carrie was staying over at Dave's because of her big project. Once she was sure, Carrie was alone in the apartment, she somehow managed to get Carrie into Carrie's truck with her. They drove out to an isolated area, and once there, Amy stabbed Carrie repeatedly in the stomach and chest, then sat calmly and watched your die.

She wrote about how Carrie cried and begged to be let go in a matter-of-fact tone like that of someone describing a work project. It's so awful. It's horrible. After Carrie was dead, Amy burned her body with gasoline and disposed of it in a dumpster. She cleaned Carrie's truck thoroughly and eventually deposited it back in Dave's apartment complex. She described how she sent that, let's move in together, text to drive Dave away and contacted Carrie's family to keep them off the trail. The cops found Carrie's old truck. It had been sold to someone else by then, and when they took off the upholstery in the front seat, they found Carrie's blood.

Then, it occurred to them that they had an unidentified fingerprint from that mint container in Carrie's car. And when they compared it to Liz's fingerprints, it matched. But even with that evidence, the case against Liz was shaky, circumstantial. Didn't have Carrie's body, and a lot of prosecutors or has a lot of prosecutors or has to take on a no-body homicide case. Wussies. Always irritates me. It's like, just put it in front of a jury, you nerds.

See what happens, okay? Like, what do you got to lose at this point? But detectives were worried. If Liz was willing to kill Carrie, would she be willing to kill Amy Flora too? Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, they felt sure as hell she would.

So they decided they needed to warn Dave. I can only imagine what this conversation was like for him. My God, can you even? Poor guy. You mentioned it before, but he is literally, he seems so nice. He really does seem like a nice guy. And he seems confused still to this day.

Mm-hmm. Wouldn't you be? How do you process all this? I'm confused and I'm not even involved. The story's taking like 15 twists already. So this was the first he'd heard of any of. of this, that his girlfriend might have been responsible for his, you know, horror story. Because again, at this point, he's dating Liz again. For years. Yeah. For years. Like, this all brought them back together.

So, Dave was freaked out, understandably. And at the detective's urging, he quickly moved in with Amy and their two kids. This is my favorite part of the case. Oh, yes. when Liz got wind of this she was pissed she called the detectives all weepy and furious so Amy gets to shoot somebody and then she gets to kill another person and then she gets to move in with Dave and she gets to be free and you guys aren't arresting her

now sorry for my theatrics But the quote, she gets to move in with Dave is really interesting here. Like Dave is a prize to be won and not like a human being that she's been twying with. It's very possessive language. Yeah. And it's a really narcissistic way to look at relationships. And I think it's probably pretty standard in an obsessive situation like this. Like you're not real.

You don't have rights. You're here for me. And your own preferences don't matter. This is all about me and what I want. Yeah. So the investigators tell her, look, calm down. There are some things we need to finalize with you before we can move on Amy. Can you come in and talk with us?

This placated Liz somewhat and she said, sure, I'll come in. And when she did, they finally confronted her with the evidence they'd gathered. Liz was furious in that interrogation room. She denied everything vehemently. she hadn't sent any goddamn email she didn't know what they were talking about blah blah blah she also wanted a attorney yeah and her body language is really interesting in that interrogation you can see it on the snapped episode about the case she's just telegraphing defensive defensive defensive with pretty much every line of her body it's really interesting yeah her legs are

crossed her arms are crossed and her shoulders are up by her ears very tense and closed off So the police had just discovered that Liz had been following Amy and driving by her house. And this was finally enough to prod the prosecutor into letting the cops arrest her. Because they know, like, she's going to kill this woman. Like, there's no doubt. I mean, obviously this, this email that Liz handed them that was supposedly from Amy, this is Liz's confession. This is not really from Amy. So if she's willing to do that, they know perfectly well.

This woman is in danger. Yeah. So this wasn't a slam dunk case and they were nervous. No body, no murder weapon. They continued their investigation. They noticed that big events in this case, the vandalism of Liz's house, the arson fire, the shooting, all corresponded to low points in Liz and Dave's relationship. When Dave started to pull away from her, Liz would pull something. And it worked. That's what's so baffling about this case. It worked beautifully. This bitch did all this crazy bullshit, and it worked. She got the man. And she would have gotten away with this, I think, if she hadn't gotten herself so involved in the case. I 100% agree with you.

She didn't have to. When someone gets shot in a stocking case, the police start to pay attention because now they have evidence to arrest the person. the stalkers actually done something that's the criterion even when the laws suck like why would you do the one thing that would get them to like crawl all over this case stupid it's because i'm sure she pictured herself like laying in bed all week and then dave at her bed that's exactly what it is she wanted him to come back to her it wasn't about getting away with the murder of carry it was about dave it was always about dave right so because the police now see a shooting and there like, oh, that's either attempted murder or assault with a deadly woman.

Also, can we talk about how the woman allegedly had a gun right on her victim and still only hit her leg? Yeah. And had her down on the ground, according to her own story. Like, why would she not just finish her off? That's like stormtrooper level aim, Liz. Come on. You got bad guy bullets. And also, I'm going to go on a little rant here.

Because for the record, the thigh is an awful place to shoot yourself. That's where your femoral artery is. Like, you nick that and you're done for. Yeah, do not shoot yourself in the thigh if you pull the scrap. So I googled that. Of course you did. Of course you did. And so actually any place on your body is like the worst place to get shot because you have nerve and bone and flesh damage.

But if you're going to do it, the least lethal place to get shot are your hands and feet. But, of course, that doesn't conjure an image of a terrifying stalker. So I'm sure Liz didn't consider that. Yeah. And in the spring of 2017, as Liz waited in jail for her trial to begin, they found what they needed to nail her. Dave realized he had an old tablet of Liz's. And when the police looked at it, oh boy. The SD card in this thing had the images deletion.

deleted off it, but you can't really delete anything, y'all. Looking at you, BTK. Yes, BTK, you massive tool. Ooh, the police couldn't possibly track me down from this floppy disk. They said so. Idiot. Police can't lie. No, of course not.

Anyway, so they were able to recover the pictures off Liz's SD card. And there were lots of selfies of Liz, picks of her house, and her kids. and then, and this must have been incredibly jarring, there was a picture of a human leg, most likely dismembered, according to the medical examiner who looked at the picture, and charred. And the leg had a tattoo on the foot, a Chinese character meaning mother.

And that tattoo matched a tattoo on Carrie Farver's foot. So, that's what they needed. and in May 2017, Liz's trial, a bench trial by her request, got underway. I think her lawyers probably realized how fucking unlikable this woman is, so they were like, we can't put her in front of a jury. Yeah, and in case you don't know, a bench trial is where you're only a judge hears the case, there's no jury. And sometimes people pick it because, just as Katie's saying, like, if you have a case

where there's going to be a lot of emotion against the defendant, then sometimes it's better to get somebody that you think is more likely. to be able to look at the case with a sort of icy logic instead of like a jury might be more likely to do like I hate this prick because he cheated on his wife or you know whatever so she asked for a bench trail probably smart the defense pointed to the lack of a body and a murder weapon but Liz was convicted anyway of first degree murder and sentenced to life without parole she took her verdict stone faced dry eyed no emotion whatsoever and unless she wins an appeal she's going to die in prison. Boom. So let's get a little background on Liz, and we don't have much, unfortunately,

but we've got a little bit. And then I want to rewind a little and talk about why we think she did some of the things that she did when she was pretending to be Carrie. So Liz grew up in Michigan, and she had a tough childhood. Her dad died when she was a baby, and her mom was hit by a car and died shortly after that. God, that's a run of bad luck. Damn. It's horrible. So she didn't have any family to take care of her, so she went into foster care. And that's a tough system in the U.S. And she spent years in it before she was adopted by a loving family.

So obviously the foster care system is unpredictable. You can look out and get placed with a great family or you can get sent straight into hell. It just depends. I don't know what Liz's life in the system was like, but I can imagine that. even in a good foster family, you're likely to feel somewhat like an outsider. You have to, right? Yeah. And I wouldn't be surprised if that had a big impact on Liz's psyche. And it might be part of why she latched on so obsessively to Dave.

And when you're obsessed to that extent, it probably feels like life and death. Like the idea of moving on with her life and letting Carrie and Dave pursue a relationship must have seemed totally impossible to Liz. So that's what we have about her background. But I want to take us back to when Liz was texting Carrie's family. At one point, she told Carrie's mom and Max, Carrie's teenage son, that Max was going to have to move to Kansas with her and she was going to come get him no matter what, no matter what anyone said. So Max said no

But like what if he'd said yes What if he'd said sure I'll be on the next bus Would Liz have come up with some excuse Why it suddenly wouldn't work out for him to join her Or was she thinking about killing Max too? Yeah I'm really suspicious of this Because it just seems like a weird thing to do to me For her to suddenly tell Max you have to join me

Why was she trying to lure this kid To you know away from his home? and I just I don't know I don't know if she was planning on killing Max if she had then grandma probably would have been next to be honest I don't know how she would have arranged that but it's creepy and I think back to that $5,000 check as well where you know supposedly Carrie had sold Liz her bedroom set and then Liz told the police well I never you know I never bought a bedroom set for her was that some kind of a boarded plan for Liz to try to get into Carrie? Barry's apartment or something, like get somebody to let her in because she had this check and oh, yeah, I'm supposed to get, maybe she was going to snoop around and get more information or something. So I think there were wheels within wheels here. Yeah, I think. So what's interesting to me is, is Liz is clearly pretty smart because, like, there's evidence from the beginning that she was going through Carrie's phone and taking context clues and saying, oh, she told her son she'd, she'd go on this

interview to Kansas or and and so I just think I agree I think at the at this woman was willing to kill other living creatures yeah she killed Carrie no question I have no doubt that she she would have killed anyone else that got in her way including Carrie's family and if she got rid of Carrie's family then there's nobody to come you know sniffing around looking for Carrie so maybe she's not any danger anymore or maybe it was just something as simple as she figured Carrie would would be the type to say that she wanted her son to join her. And so it would seem out of character to not say Max, you have to come join me. And maybe she was hoping Max would say no. Yeah. And then if he'd said, yes, she would have come up with

some excuse. But it is, it's a creepy thought. Yeah. And I also, I have to think about the photo of Carrie's foot. Because I have, I have two mindsets here. One, it's the obvious she was keeping a trophy, which is fucking crazy. Yeah, it's creepy. But you could also say maybe she was actually smart enough to play the long game, which I don't know that she's this smart playing the long game of like maybe she wanted to plant the picture on somebody else to frame somebody else for the murder. I don't know.

Yeah, you never know. And there's something that comes up in a few minutes that maybe we'll call back to that. I think there are some interesting clues to Liz's mindset in some of the, threatening text from Carrie, quote unquote, to both Liz and Dave. So, for example, in one text, I think this one was actually to one of Carrie's family members. She said something like, I don't know why I do the things I do. I just meet a guy who's nice to me and something comes over me and I can't control it. Which is interesting because it seems like an odd moment of clarity for Liz.

She knew she was out of control. She knew what she was doing was way outside of the norm, but she felt like she couldn't help it. and she realized, obviously, that it was triggered by her infatuation with Dave. So it makes you wonder if she has other things like this in her past, doesn't it? Like, whether this is the first time. I mean, obviously, I don't think she's killed anybody before that it's gone that far, but I wonder if there's a whole string of men who've come across similar behavior from her. And one text that, quote, unquote, Carrie sent to Dave during the heat of the harassment,

said that she had just abducted Liz and would kill her if Dave didn't call her and talk. to her and she sent a picture of a woman bound with ropes and you couldn't really see the woman's face and Dave didn't buy it and told her to leave him alone and this was before the fire else he might have taken it more seriously but this is kind of fascinating to me because it seems like Liz was desperate to see how Dave would react if he thought she was in danger so she probably hoped he'd freak out and say something like don't you dare hurt the love of my life or something like that and it must have been a huge disappointment to her when she got so little reaction out of him and whether, you know, he was just like,

screw off. Like, I don't believe you or whatever. That must have been a huge disappointment. But, I mean, no lie. Isn't there a part of all of us that would secretly kind of love to see how our loved ones would react if they thought we were in danger? Like, we would all love to see our significant others like

suit up in their shining armor and mount their horse and come riding to our defense, right? Sure. So I think she yielded to that impulse and that was probably part of why she sent that text. But interestingly enough, there also seems to be some hostility toward Dave embedded in some of the threatening texts. So in one text to Dave from quote unquote Carrie, Liz linked to an obituary that she'd created online for herself.

And as Carrie, she says, this is for the whore. I'll kill her. And a few minutes later, she texted that she was looking for a hitman to kill Liz, like we talked about before. You told me you wanted her gone. now this gets confusing but again this is liz as carrie texting dave about hiring a hitman to kill liz right and this is interesting that she would want to implicate dave in a murder-for-hire plot so i don't know what do you think the motivation was there was she trying to hedge her bets in case police caught her like divert attention to dave so was it just a fantasy like kind of like that signature line Dave loves me at the ends of her text

to herself. Like in her own mind did she kind of substitute Carrie for herself? And was she just kind of fantasizing that like Dave might ask her to find someone to kill Carrie? You know? I just don't know. I don't. It's hard to imagine how somebody like this thinks,

but I wonder what her motive was in that. Because that just implicates Dave supposedly the man she loves in a murder plot. Yeah. It's almost like she wanted Dave to be like, I would never ask you to do that. Like to prove that Dave loved her so much because, I mean, obviously to this person,

killing was not even that huge of an obstacle for her to get over. So this could be more of the same, like the text where I'm going to kill Liz if you don't call me and she wanted him to say, how dare you, don't you dare hurt Liz? But I think also murder was this woman's love language. She loved Dave, so she had to murder for him. What planet is that person from? If men are from Mars and women are from Venus. What planet is Liz from?

Pluto, not even a real planet. From the coldest moon and the furthest planet from the sun. Oh, my God. Yeah. So, and it's really chilling to me that some of Carrie's threats to Liz. So Liz's threats to herself involved. involved Liz's children. Yeah, that is creepy.

When that house fire happened, Carrie texted, I hope Liz and the kids are inside, so they all die. Quote, Carrie, I mean, obviously, it was Liz. I would think that would be a horrible thing for a mother to imagine. But Liz typed that out with apparent ease. No kidding, right? It really shows everything else takes a back, seat when obsession gets out of control.

So here's another interesting conversation topic. Do you think she would have hurt her own kids if she thought it would get Dave to be with her? Now, we know she had no compunction about hurting her pets, as I mentioned before. And that must have been awful for the kids. Yeah, I'm sure. But she didn't care. Yeah. So clearly she was willing to hurt them emotionally.

Right. And I mean, it's almost like I wouldn't, I would almost put her in the same category as like a Munchausen's by proxy parent if she were to hurt the kids. It would be to get the attention from Dave, not to get any pleasure from hurting the kids. No, I don't think she would take pleasure in it, but they might, if she started to see them as obstacles. I mean, we know that that is frequent. Well, I mean, not frequently because it doesn't happen frequently. But when mothers kill their children, it's a relatively common motive for them to do so because they want to be with a man. Like Susan Smith, she killed her children because the man that she wanted to be with didn't want to be a father.

And the same thing with Diane Downs, another famous case of a woman who murdered two of her children and very seriously injured the other trying to murder her. And she did so again because she was obsessed with a guy who didn't want to be a daddy. So this happens. And we can't be sure. Obviously, we can't see inside Liz Goliere's heart. But do I think it's possible? Yeah, I do. Absolutely. I agree. I think with these cases, I want to make it clear that we're not diagnosing people. We're not claiming that this was actually part of the plan. But I think part of my interest in true crime personally is being able to look at a case and kind of extrapolate what kind of person. Try to get inside their heads and figure out the motivations. That's what's fascinating to me about it, too. Mm-hmm. So obsession is scary, huh?

Yeah. If Liz hadn't been caught when she was, I think it's almost certain she would have made a move against Amy. This story shows us how important it is to find balance in our lives and make sure we work hard on developing strong core of identity and self-worth. Because you don't want to turn into a Liz, campers. It's not a good luck No, which is not. So that's the story, loves. It's a wild one, isn't it?

You know we'll have another one for you next week, but for now, lock your doors, light your lights, and stay safe until we can get together again around the true crime campfire. And we want to send a shout out to our newest patrons, Stacey and the True Crime Lab podcast. Thanks so much, y'all. We appreciate you to the moon and back. Thank you so much.

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