True Crime Campfire - Halloween Special: Scare You Round the Campfire, with Scare You to Sleep Host Shelby Scott

Episode Date: October 16, 2020

Hey, guess what? BOO! Haha, gotcha. Welcome to our second annual True Crime Campfire Halloween Special! As if 2020 hasn’t been scary enough by itself, right? We’re especially excited about this year’s Halloween episode, campers, because we have a very special guest joining us: The gorgeous and talented Shelby Scott, honey-voiced host of Scare You to Sleep, a podcast that, while beautifully produced and vastly entertaining, miiiight just make you wet yourself a little now and then. So just…y’know, be aware. Shelby’s stock and trade is fictional horror, but she’s also a true crime buff. So we decided that for this episode, we’d each pick a case. And for some reason we all ended up picking vintage ones, which I think adds to the spookiness. So grab your big bowl of Halloween candy, dim your lights, and enjoy three bizarre stories of murder and mayhem. Scare You to Sleep: https://open.spotify.com/show/2sNFsS8B0qvIg1jK0Vo7Ns?fbclid=IwAR2EwLp6Prat1z3xc9RZJQOHsCHWFxi-uPRiPcxgx1eH-O6xm-X0IXyOH_QSources:Investigation Discovery's "True Nightmares," Episode "Seeing Stars"https://malefactorsregister.com/wp/the-fault-is-in-ourselves/Amazon's "Lore," Episode "Ghosts in the Attic"https://www.sanluisobispo.com/news/local/crime/article39122823.html https://medium.com/true-crime-addiction/a-dead-body-lying-next-to-mine-satanic-murder-5687c4b9aabe https://www.sanluisobispo.com/news/local/crime/article39122823.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/business/2001/01/23/did-death-metal-music-incite-murder/63cf6de7-fdd1-4067-a49f-9946f111e6a2/https://www.mentalfloss.com/article/502044/chilling-story-hinterkaifeck-killings-germanys-most-famous-unsolved-crimeFollow us, campers!Patreon (join to get all episodes ad-free, at least a day early, an extra episode a month, and a free sticker!): https://patreon.com/TrueCrimeCampfireFacebook: True Crime CampfireInstagram: https://gramha.net/profile/truecrimecampfire/19093397079Twitter: @TCCampfire https://twitter.com/TCCampfireEmail: [e-mail] a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/true-crime-campfire--4251960/support.

Hello campers. Grab your marshmallows and gather around the true crime campfire. We're your camp counselors. I'm Katie. And I'm Whitney. And we're here to tell you a true story that is way stranger than fiction. We're roasting murderers and marshmallows around the true crime campfire. Woo! Hey, guess what? Boo! Gotcha. Welcome to our second annual true crime campfire Halloween special. As if 20, 2020 hasn't been scary enough by itself, right? We're especially excited about this year's Halloween episode Campers because we have a very special guest joining us. The gorgeous and talented Shelby Scott, honey-voiced host of Scare You to Sleep,

a podcast that, while beautifully produced and vastly entertaining, might just make you wet yourself a little now and again. So just, you know, be aware of that. Shelby's stock and trade is fictional horror, but she's also a true crime buff, so we decided that for this episode, we'd each pick a case. And for some reason, we all ended up picking vintage ones, which I think adds to the spookiness. So grab your big bowl of Halloween candy, dim your lights, and settle in campers,

because this is scary around the campfire, a Halloween special event. So campers. Today we are beyond honored to have horror goddess, podcast queen, and Earth Angel, Shelby Scott, with us. We actually call Shelby our fairy pod mother because when Whitney and I first started out, we went to her for advice because Scary to Sleep is so good and has been from day one. Yep. So Shelby, hi. Hi. Welcome. Thank you so much for doing this Halloween show with us. We can't think of anybody we'd rather co-host with for this one. Thank you so much for having me. I've been a big first. fan of yours from day one. As you know, I've talked about you on my show a lot. I just, I love the show. You guys do such great research and you're so respectful, you know, and I, of, you know,

each case, and I'm, I'm so, I've already told you all I'm so nervous to be here. I'm really excited. Yeah, it's so funny that you're excited. Like, we are fan-girling out right now. We're all fan-girling out. It's a trifecta of fan-girls. It's just a perfect circle. Yeah, we have what's known as mutual admiration going on, and I think that's beautiful. But seriously, we're super excited, so thank you. And I want to let everybody know that it's actually raining in my neck of the woods right now. So if you hear a weird little hissing noise in the background, it's actually not one of our cats for once. It is rain.

But because it's a Halloween special, I feel like it's kind of atmospheric, actually. So I hope it's not too annoying. We really had to do it tonight, so. All right, campers, I picked a doozy of a case for you, so buckle up. Can we see the truth about ourselves in the stars? Some people say yes, some say no. Whether you view astrology as a harmless hobby, a way of life, or a silly pseudoscience, though, it's been around forever and it ain't going anywhere anytime soon. Somebody asked me about my sign just yesterday, as a matter of fact.

And in case you're curious, I'm a Leo. Very appropriate for the cat lady, right? Although I feel like I don't fit it in most ways. But anyway, Katie, Shelby, y'all want to share your signs? Yeah, I'm a cancer. And I'm very sensitive. Like one time somebody pointed out that the cancer symbol looked like the naughty numbers, and it hurt my feelings. I was in my fifth grade.

But like according to someone in the know, that means something, but I don't know anything about astrology. This grade. Who knows about the naughty numbers in the fifth grade? I was too sheltered. What are you 10? Yeah. And they wouldn't tell me. Yeah, because I was like, what does, what do you mean the sex numbers?

And they were like, oh, you don't know. I'm like, no. I don't. Tell me. That kid must have at HBO at their house. Oh, for sure. Spice Channel, something. Oh, I forgot about the Spice Channel. Oh, my God. Is that still around? Probably not. Who knows. It's all Internet. It is all Internet. So, Shelby, do you care to share your astrology sign? Yeah, I'm a Virgo. I'm pretty much a Virgo on paper. A lot of serial killers are Virgo's, so that's interesting. Yeah, and two of my asshole ex-boyfriends. All right, well, I forgive you. Okay. Like I said, I'm usually nothing like a Leo.

On behalf of all Virgo's, I'd like to say, we are all sorry. Well, obviously, there are people I'm attracted to, so we can at least say that. Me and Ted Bundy. Perhaps an ill-advised pairing. So, personally, I tend to let Shakespeare take this question for me with Cassius line from Julius Caesar, where he says, the fault, dear Brutus, is not in our stars, but in ourselves. At least, I'm going to go out in a limb and say that we can't blame our stars for a murder, right? But in the story I've picked to tell you, that's exactly what the killers tried to do. And for this one, campers, we're in the

gorgeous coastal town of Bandon, Oregon, summer 1923, where a big beautiful house was occupied by the Covel family. Dr. Fred Covel, a successful chiropractor, his wife, Ebba, their three kids together, Fred's two teenage kids from a previous marriage, Lucille and Alton, and Fred's brother Arthur. So, damn, full house, right? And perhaps unsurprisingly, there was a lot of tension rolling around in there, as shows like the real world and the Big Brother House have taught us, when you cram that many people in a house, shit's about to get real. And they were no exception. So for one thing, the two teenagers, Luceland Alton, both had some issues with developmental disabilities. Alton had to have inpatient treatment for his for a while,

although he, by the time our story starts, had come back home. And then there were three younger kids to contend with. And Fred's brother Arthur was a handful. Arthur had been severely disabled years earlier. He'd been working on a truck, and I guess the jack wasn't attached right or something, and the truck slipped and fell right on top of him and crushed his spine, which is just horrendous. I can't even imagine.

Why does this keep coming up? I was thinking that too, right? That's the second time because it came up in the Angel's landing case. Stop going under cars. I think that's the only solution. Just for God's sake, go to a mechanic. So now he was paralyzed from the waist down and he needed obviously a lot of extra care and he and Fred's wife Ebba did not get along. He hated her. He condescended to her. He treated her like his personal servant and obviously she hated his guts in return. She was also annoyed by his work. After his accident, Arthur had immersed himself in the study of astrology.

He started doing horoscopes for family and friends, and after a while, word of mouth got around so much about these horoscopes that he started a mail order business, making these elaborate astrological charts for whoever would hire him, and it became really lucrative for him. After a while, Arthur had managed to score himself a handful of celebrity clients, and one of those, interestingly enough, was a director named William Desmond Taylor.

He actually later ended up murdered himself, and his case is still unsolved. So it's one of those old Hollywood famous murders, right? I love that case. Yeah. Really? Oh, I didn't, I hadn't even heard of it. Yeah, I love that case.

Sorry to like gasp when you said that. I just got hurt. No, I was excited when you gas. I was like, ooh, somebody knows something about it. So, yeah, I don't know anything about it, but it's, like, mysterious and unsolved at all. Yeah, it's very fascinating. Katie, I know you don't like unsolved. We have to do that one.

I'm sorry. I've been doing better. The last few cases I've actually. is I've actually like deeply researched have been unsolved. It's like exposure therapy for me. Yeah, just slowly getting there. Like I'm like, okay. She's getting your toe into the water. It's fine. Maybe I'll look up this one. This looks fun. We have an agreement. You know, she does unsolved cases for me sometimes and I do, you know, wrongful conviction cases for her sometimes. And, you know, it's a beautiful friendship. Yeah, that's a beautiful relationship. I'll have to do that case sometime. So anyway,

so people came to respect Arthur as a kind of clairvoyant almost. And his clients, you know, barely made to move without consulting him the way that tends to go. So, any of you, Arthur just kind of sat up in bed most of the day making astrological charts and pontificating it everybody about what the stars had to say about them, no matter how much they begged him to stop, while Ebba had to wait on him hand and foot and put up with his imperious kind of I am the great seer attitude. He sounds like a deeply unpleasant human being from everything I've read. Fred, at least, could escape to his chiropractic clinic every day.

Ebba and Arthur had no such luck, and one afternoon, Fred's receptionist interrupted one of his snap, crackle, and pop sessions to tell him he had an urgent phone call. It was Arthur. Ebba is dead, he said matter of factly. That is very matter of factly. It is your birthday. Ebba is dead. You should come home. Fred rushed home to find his family waiting for him. They led Fred upstairs to the bedroom, and there she was. His wife was lying on the floor, clearly dead. There were no obvious signs of what had caused it. She was just lying there, as if she'd suddenly collapsed. And when Fred asked the family what had happened, they all said they didn't know. Lucille had just found her like that. Fred didn't call the police.

He called the local mortician to come get poor Ebba instead, and his first words on the phone were enough to raise the funeral director's eyebrows. There's a corpse in my house. That's what he said So maybe it runs in the family This rather stoic Attitude about death Yikes So only later in the call did he say

It's my wife, Eba So weird but okay You know people say weird stuff When they're in shock And maybe shock explains what happened next to Which is that while they waited for the mortician To come pick up Eba's body The rest of the family went downstairs

And had dinner Just like they did every other night sat around ate their beef stew made small talk about their day when the funeral home guy got there he must have felt like he'd come to the wrong house can i just say there's a corpse in my house has to be the creepiest and most roundabout way to communicate the problem like sir you don't have a rat problem your beloved wife is dead there's a fly in my suit like that's what it sounded like to me yeah yes there's a hair in this there's a corpse in my house and then it got weirder. As the guy was getting Ebba's body ready for transport, he said to Fred, we'll take her to the hospital for an autopsy. I mean, this was a young,

apparently healthy woman. An autopsy seemed like a given under those circumstances, but Fred Cavill said, oh no, there's no need for that. I'm a doctor. It's obvious she died for natural causes. Just take her straight to the funeral home. Now, if the funeral home folks weren't suspicious

before, they sure as hell were now. The guy said, sure, sure. just take her straight to the funeral home. And then as soon as he was out the door with Ebba's body on a gurney, he just hauled ass to the morgue for the autopsy. And he called the police from there. Good for him. And it was a really good thing that he did that because the medical examiner found some things right away that did not seem to jive with the natural causes theory. There was a livid red mark on the side of her neck and he thought her neck was most likely broken. He quickly realized this was a murder. So who killed Ebba Covell? By all accounts, Ebba and her husband Fred fought a lot. Ebba was pissed about how much time Fred spent at his practice, about having to take care of Arthur, about the fact that her stepkids didn't seem to respect her, and Fred didn't seem interested in doing anything about that.

And then we have Fred's bizarre comments and behavior on the day of her death. Uncle Arthur had a contentious relationship with Ebba, too, of course, but he couldn't walk. He was hardly capable of breaking her neck. The only other two people home at the time of the murder that the investigators knew of anyway were the two teenagers, Lucille and Alton. Didn't seem likely that they were the culprits, but kids do tend to see and hear an awful lot about what goes on in a marriage.

So the detectives started with them. They didn't have a lot to say initially, just that their parents fought a lot and Ebba and Arthur too. They were kind of quiet, withdrawn kids, gave off almost a creepy vibe to the lead investigator, Wednesday Adams without the wit. And when they said, spoke to Arthur, he said, he guessed it must have been natural causes, just like his brother said.

But then he said, Eba was his fourth wife, you know. One of them left him, but the other ones all died. He gave the detective a capital S significant glance. And his implication was pretty clear that Eba was dead wife number three for brother Fred. Fred was the logical suspect. He was a hyperpractor, he knew just how to snap a neck. He was the only person in the house who seemed physically capable of committing the murder, and he and his wife were having major problems, not to mention all those other dead wives in his rearview mirror. When the detectives confronted him about it, Fred was pissed. He denied having anything to do with Ebba's death, then promptly lawyered up. They arrested him anyway and charged him with murder. The evidence was circumstantial,

but it all pointed to him. From jail, Fred hired a private detective, a guy named Luke May. This guy had quite a reputation as a rock star criminologist, kind of a real-life Sherlock Holmes, and he told Fred he'd find out the truth whether it implicated him in his wife's murder or not. His first move was to have Ebba's body re-examined by an experienced forensic pathologist, and in addition to that bright red mark on Ebba's neck, the new doctor also found angry-looking red marks all around her mouth. Now, why hadn't the first doctor found them?

Well, because they were chemical burns, and those tend not to show up on a body right away. Chemical burns, what the hell? He also did a more detailed examination of Ebba's neck and found that it wasn't actually broken, but the marks were clear signs of a struggle. Detective May decided to start fresh and re-interview everybody in the family.

Now, y'all true crime obsessives know that in most cases, there's going to be a weak link, somebody who knows what happened and will spill that poison tea all over creation if you just find the right button to push to get him talking. And in this case, that weak link was teenage Lucille. Luke May was a great interrogator and it didn't take him long to crack her like an egg. And campers, holy shit that you have a story to tell. So we told you about Uncle Arthur and his astrology business, right? Well, turns out Arthur wasn't just into the zodiac to make money.

He believed in his work on a subatomic level. The idea that our fates are all foretold by the stars completely consumed him. And apparently, not long before she was murdered, Eba had stumbled upon some bombshell information about Arthur and what his stars had been telling him. Arthur had a plan, y'all. His astrological charts had revealed it to him, and it was a corker. His nephew Alton had always been enthralled with him, fascinated by the astrology stuff and Arthur's alleged ability to predict the future.

and in the spring of 1923, Arthur had decided to make use of that devotion to carry out the will of the universe, as he saw it, of course. He was planning to use teenage Alton to commit at least, buckle up, 27 murders. What a number. Holy shit. Think? 27. It's very specific, you know. She's just made an even 30.

Come on. And most of these had a financial motive. Arthur had elaborate plans to worm his way into the wills of some of the intended victims. He had plans to con others out of their life savings before killing them to avoid punishment. And the weirdest motive, this is fun, one intended victim had made some renovations to his house, and Arthur wanted to steal the custom-made doors and windows before killing this poor dude and burning his house to the ground. I am not making this up, I shit you not. ah yes the old window and door scam it's a perfect crime you guys no one will notice they're gone

the resale value is mint for measured to fit one house doors and windows that has got to be the weirdest murder motive we've ever had so far on the show i want your custom doors and windows good god they were building a house apparently planning to build a house apparently so he wanted he's like just hire the same guy what are you doing why don't you kill this boy man. Anyway, Lord have mercy, Arthur. So Arthur spun all this out for Alton using his considerable charisma and cachet as the resident seer, and Alton fell for it hook, line, and sinker. And Lucille was in on some of these conversations, too. And although she apparently didn't believe in any of her uncle's astrology woo-woo, she was too scared to tell anybody what they were planning.

I'm not sure how exactly poor Ebba became aware of all this insanity. That wasn't clear from any of the sources I used, but somehow she did find out about it. And I imagine she probably told Arthur off in no uncertain terms. And then, coincidentally, shortly after that, Arthur announced to his nephew Alton that the stars were saying it was Ebba's time to die. Oh, shocking, right? Had to happen, he said. And specifically, it had to happen at 11 a.m. on September 3rd. And Alton had to be the one to do it. So, on the appointed day, poor Alton did as he was told. He soaked a rag in ammonia, sneaked up behind Eva and grabbed her, pressing the rag against her nose and mouth until after several long, excruciating minutes, she died. Now, once he realized

his sister had given him up, Alton confessed pretty much immediately, as teenage kids always do make no mistake about it. Unsurprisingly, Arthur denied everything. But in his bedroom, detectives found a wealth of evidence supporting Lucille and Alton's story. His books were written in code, but it was an easy one to crack, and it was essentially a detailed confession. At one point, he'd written, Today's the Day. I wonder if Alton will go through with it. Smart, man. Well played. But he put it in code, though, so it's fine. God, I love it when they write in code. It just shows how dumb they really are. And you know, they feel so smart in that moment.

Oh, I know. He was like, yeah, man, I am like a criminal mastermind. And really, it's just piglet. Don't write anything down, campers. Come on. You're going to get caught. It's got to get you caught. And you'll look so stupid. You must not write anything down. That's the golden rule. Ever. All right. So Arthur and Alton both went to trial and both were easily convicted. I mean, there was a mountain of evidence. Alton was sentenced to life in prison, but he was paroled after eight years, which I think is appropriate. This was a kid who had some issues of his own

was clearly manipulated by his uncle. I'm fine with him being paroled after eight years. I don't think he would have ever hurt anybody in his wildest dreams if Arthur hadn't gotten hold of him. Now, as for Arthur, he was sentenced to death and hanged a year or so later. So my question for you, Arthur, is, did you stars tell you that, asshole?

Guess not. So that has got to be one of the weirdest cases I've ever come across campers and when I when I read about it I was so excited I was like oh man I cannot wait to tell him about this and all I can say is that the state of Oregon is damn lucky that poor Ebba died before they could go on this bizarre like horoscope fueled crime spree because God knows how many people would have died you know he had 27 in his crosshairs fully anchors all right it's my turn case number two all right campers i picked the murder of elise paler it's interesting to be for a couple of reasons first the underrated movie jennifer's body is loosely based on this case and there's an interesting satanic panic tie-in because the family of the victim actually sued the band slayer for giving instructions to the killers apparently these ass hats were big slayer fans this is one case i've actually never heard of so

just you starting out has already been a roller coaster for me. I love that. Oh, every detail feels like a slap in the face, Shelby, just wait. They're suing people, satanic stuff. Jennifer's body? It's a mess. Yeah, Megan Fox movie, let's go. Y'all know we're interested in the satanic panic thing.

We've mentioned it before. Basically, contrary to popular belief and contrary to those shouty copy-paste statuses, your weird auntie might be posting on Facebook, satanic sacrifice murders are not at all common. The FBI have debunked the notion that there's widespread satanic cult-type activity in the U.S. Again and again. When these kinds of crimes do happen, though, it's usually done by a group of teenagers or an individual experiencing a mental health crisis. Not a shadowy cult organization. Katie, I'm disappointed.

That's just what they want you to think. God, get with the program already. Who's they again? The lizard people. Obviously. God. Yeah. Okay. All right. I can see I'm wasting my time here. Anyway, campers, this one took place in Arroyo Grande, California, July 22nd, 1995. 15-year-old Elise Pailer got a phone call from her friends, Royce, Joseph, and Jacob, who ranged in age from 14 to 16.

The guys wanted to know if Elise wanted to. to meet up and smoke some weed. They were meeting up at Napoma Mesa, a remote eucalyptus grove, where they felt sure they wouldn't be disturbed. Elise said, sure, and at around 11 p.m., she told her parents she was going to bed, waited for the right moment, and snuck out to go meet her friends. Elise was a sweet kid, outgoing, optimistic, generally very happy-go-lucky. She was having a pretty typical middle-class American upbringing with parents who loved her. And like a lot of kids at that age, at the time all this happened, she was going through a little bit of a phase, sort of trying out a new identity, by which I mean she liked a lot of stuff that people might

consider dark, horror movies, rock music, weed. A. For some of us, of course, that's not a phase. I mean, I host a horror podcast. Yeah, now that you mention it, we talk in great detail. tale about murder once a week. And the highlight of my life in recent weeks was when my husband gave me a mounted death's head moth. So yeah. Yeah. And can we take a second and defend horror movies, by the way?

The narrator on the killer kids episode about this case said, on the outside, she looked like a proper young lady with a good upbringing. But she hides a darker side of her personality. She isn't a horror film. Oh, my God. Oh, Lord. Like, excuse the hell out of me. I wasn't aware that really liking to watch Jason Voorhe's murder-handsy perverse with a machete was a reason to say somebody had a dark side.

Sheesh. Yeah, and sometimes, Katie, you'll have to show them your vast collection of horror movie t-shirts. So many. So, point-taking. I mean, it might have been a phase or it might have just been the beginning of a beautiful friendship with the spookier side of life. Nothing wrong with that. At least actually reminds me of myself when I was her age. I was, like, super interested in counterculture.

I'm still still am. And I really wanted to fit in with that crowd. Yeah, this case reminded me of a story. When I was in the eighth grade, my very religious best friend dumped me really, really cruelly, too, by the way, because I guess that's what Jesus would do in her mind. Because I liked those Anne Rice vampire books. What? Like, that was it. That was my great sin.

Yeah, because I liked the vampire Lestat, an interview with the vampire, she said it meant I was dark-sighted. and I was a witch and all this. And, I mean, we were like bestest friends. And we lived right next door to each other. We hung out all the time. And it was right around Halloween when this happened. And I remember, like, she just iced me out. Like, she wouldn't even talk to me.

It took, like, days for me to even get her to explain to me what the hell was going on. And I just went home and I cried and cried and ate all my Halloween candy. Aw. That's what you got to do. That's not heartbreaking. Those books are so, those are my favorites, too. you were in the eighth grade of course I'm going to read the vampire books what the hell if she only knew how much actual Christian idolatry there is in those books too they're not like

ain't right that's true there's a lot of yeah it's just the joys of growing up in a tiny southern town but you know the postscript to that story is that this bitch tried to friend me on Facebook a couple years back like just like nothing ever happened and I was like you got a prayer deleted that's the best feeling in the world when somebody who was mean to you like, tries to. But I was actually like denied. Yeah, I wanted her to know. I hadn't forgotten.

That's a great feeling. Anyway, my point is, is that Elise was a sweet girl who just liked scary movies and a joint now and then. And if she had a flaw, it might have been that she was incredibly trusting. She always tried to find the good in people, even when there really wasn't any to find. The three guys she was sneaking out to meet, on the other hand, they were known around town as bad boys. So let's get a quick thumbnail sketch of these kids. Jacob Delashment had had a middle class upbringing with strict Christian parents. One witness described his house as very cheery and religious, and then you'd go into Jacob's room and black everywhere, satanic stuff.

Obviously, this kid was dabbling and stuff that was probably designed to make his parents, clutch their pearls as hard as possible. Then there was Joseph Fiorella. He was only 14, but this kid wasn't wasting any time. He was up to his eyelids in meth and LSD and various other drugs at 14.

Which is obviously not the best cocktail for a developing brain to be marinating in. Oh, no, probably not. He was obsessed with the band slayer, which became his gateway drug to the wide world of Satan worship.

Word alert. Yeah, we're talking about the silly horror movie trope kind of stuff with lots of babies getting sacrificed and virgins getting defiled. Joseph even had a small library of books on the subject, which I bet were just something else. Last up was Royce Casey, definitely the weakest link of the group. The lackey. He was just kind of in it to have someplace to belong. The kids had a band called Patriot. Of course it was.

Oh, my God. They played heavy metal, of course, and of course, they sucked on toast. They were basically Slayer plagiarists with no musical talent. So the three boys waited for Elisa at Napoma Mesa. and she arrived a little after 11. They offered her weed and some booze, and for a while they just hung out, drinking and smoking and shooting the shit as kids like to do.

But then, without warning, they attacked. It was brutal. They all three took turns stabbing Elise, as Pat killers often do, to make sure everyone gets blood on their hands. All told, this lovely sweet girl suffered a dozen stab wounds, plus an attempt at strangulation and a brutal stomping. They watched her bleed out into the dirt.

She was only 15 years old. And as if they hadn't done enough already, once Elise was dead, they took turns violating her body. Then they hid her in the eucalyptus grove and went home. The next morning, Elise's parents woke up to find their daughter gone. police launched a statewide search but nothing turned up and as the weeks turned into months everyone worried that the case was going ice cold what an absolute nightmare i'm not even a parent but the idea of waking up and your child just being gone and you have no idea to where to even

begin looking and they just thought she was asleep in her bed i mean she snuck out they had no idea they had no way of knowing who she was with. Just to, yeah, like you say, a nightmare. And apparently it was a pretty shitty investigation, right? Like her body was actually not at all far from her parents' house. That eucalyptus grove probably should have been one of the first places they looked, but it wasn't for some reason. It was like, I mean, she was 15. It was within walking distance.

It's ridiculous. So she walked there. And for months, while the investigation spluttered along, the three boys went back to the grove again and again. sometimes to abuse the body, and a couple of times to hide it more thoroughly. Then, about eight months after Elise went missing, the DA's office got a visit from a criminal defense attorney, and holy shit, did he have a story to tell? The attorney was representing Royce Casey, and Royce had recently undergone what you might call a spiritual awakening.

Yeah, Royce, if you recall, was the one we described as the lackey, the weak link. He'd started going to church with his parents recently, and he was starting to feel guilty. Or so he said, at least. I'm not sure if the kid was really twisting under the flaming eye of conscience or if he was just scared shitless. Right, because according to Royce, his two best bros had started talking about killing somebody again. He was scared he might be next on their list. But whatever his reasons for coming forward, Royce spilled his guts. These little assholes had planned the murder for a month,

often while they were supposed to be practicing for their shitty little metal band. You know, if you'd actually practice your goddamn instruments instead of plotting murder, you might have actually sucked less. Yep, and that's what makes this next part just so extra special ridiculous. When the detectives asked Royce what the motive was, he said, it was to receive power from the devil to help us play guitar better. Oh, my God. Jesus Christ.

Okay, you know what makes you play guitar better? You absolute turnips, practicing the fucking guitar. Oh, my God. It's just a... Oh, it's ridiculous. Okay. So why was Elise the perfect sacrifice? Well, according to Mo Larry and Curley over here, apparently Satan has a thing for blondes.

Well. I know. You're like, oh, my. Oh. Rice said she had blonde hair and blue eyes, and because she was a virgin, she would be the perfect sacrifice for the devil. In reality, of course, it had nothing to do with that. Joseph Urella was just obsessed with her. And this is a fun little detail that I just need to slip in there.

The trio referred to themselves as Satan's children. Of course they did. Just keeps getting cooler and cooler. Impostically cool. And they had wanted to do like a whole ceremony for the murder. And ladies want to know why they didn't? Yes. Because they couldn't get enough candles together.

I can't. So they had to scrap the formalities. And apparently they'd tried once before to kill Elise, but they'd chickened out at the last second. I'm sure it'll surprise no one to hear that Royce Casey tried to downplay his own involvement when he gave the confession. But his diary told a different story. A few months after the murder, he wrote, I'm fighting on the other side now, allied with the darkened souls.

Satan's raised and shall conquer and reign. In the Bible, it says that in the end, Lucifer will bring out his best in everything, music, love, murder. All the psycho-serial killers and rapists don't know that if they would just build an altar of sacrifice and kill the person on the altar and then have repeated sex with the corpse, virgin meat is the ultimate sacrifice.

Sir, this is a Hardy's drive-thru. Katie, what were you just saying about writing stuff down? I probably shouldn't do that. Don't do it. Don't do it. Katie, damn it. You had to know that the phrase virgin meat would upset me on a molecular level, and yet you still put it in here.

So that's it. We're broken up for the rest of the day. that's okay and y'all please don't think we're downplaying the awfulness of this murder it just it makes it even worse i think to see how up their own asses these little creeps were and just how absurd the whole thing was and how like full of themselves they were and just for nothing oh god i hate these kids and i think it's important to kind of take the veneer of ooh creepy satan worshippers and see like they're just like acne covered teenage boys well that's one of our main missions at True Crime Camp Fair, as y'all have probably noticed, which is to de-glamorize

murderers. Because, you know, they're so often presented as, oh, dark, mysterious, cool. No, you're fucking nerds, and we hate you. Yep. So in the end, all three pleaded no contest, and they each got a sentence of 25 to life. And there is an interesting little post script to the story, because all three boys said the band Slayer was the driving force behind the murder, Elise's parents actually brought a lawsuit against Slayer in 2001. They sought damages, but also they wanted the band to stop marketing itself to children. They argued that the band's lyrics, especially in songs like Dead Skin Mask, which references serial killer Ed Gein, provided an instruction manual for stalking,

rape, torture, murder, and necrophilia. Unsurprisingly, the case was thrown out on First Amendment grounds. Then the palers tried again, but again the case was thrown out. One of the judges said, where do you draw the line? You might as well start looking through the library at every book on the shelf. And I think he's got a good point. For generations, we've been trying to blame murder and mayhem on one type of media or another. In the 1920s, 16-year-old Dorothy Ellingson murdered her mom when she tried to prevent her from going out to a jazz club with her friends.

And the media slant was, of course, jazz is to blame. It's hypnotizing our children. It was hypnotizing our children. Later on, Jacob Delashment said that Slayer wasn't the motive at all. He said, Elise was murdered because Joe was obsessed with her and obsessed with killing her. Yep. And he had strong enough personality to rope his two best friends in on the plan

and sprinkle in a bunch of bullshit about Satan and sacrifice and how famous they were going to be once the big guy downstairs got a load of what they were willing to do for him. For their part, by the way, Slayer pointed out that the killer, didn't even follow the necrophiliac ritual outlined in their songs. And they condemned the killing saying, if you're going to do something stupid like that, you should get in trouble for it. Yeah. A great player.

Yeah. All right, campers, moving on to the grand finale. Shelby, what have you got for us? I am too. It probably won't surprise anyone, including my listeners, that the case I picked is the one most likely to give you nightmares. especially since it's still unsolved. And like on my show, I like to say, I love old dusty stuff and this is an old dusty murder.

There's just something extra creepy about the unsolved ones, don't you think? Absolutely. Katie. Oh, no, I'm so into this. Yes, I'm so into this. I'm so excited. For this one, we're in Groverne, Germany, about 45 miles from Munich, April 1922. The Hinter-Kifek homestead, home of the Gruber family, sat in the woods a little ways outside of town.

The family were Andreas and Cazilia Gruber, 63 and 72, respectively, their 35-year-old widow daughter, Victoria, and Victoria's children, 7-year-old Cazilia, and 2-year-old Joseph. Someone else had just moved in as well. the family's brand new maid, Maria Baumgardner. People in town were starting to worry about the gruber's. For one thing, they'd miss church that Sunday. That was especially weird for Victoria, who sang in the choir, and hardly ever missed a Sunday. And this was 1922. That's not only is it church, but it's kind of your entertainment for the week.

It's like, you're living in the country. You know, you just don't miss your one time a week. You get to go sing. then little seven-year-old Cazilia didn't show up for school. At the post office, the staff noticed that the grubers hadn't picked up their mail in quite a few days. The grubers were a family who usually kept to themselves, but this was getting to be a bit much. The neighbors were getting concerned. But let's pause for a few minutes, and let's get a little background on the family.

Who were the grubers? And was there any reason why they may have decided to drop off the map for a while on purpose, maybe? Well, the family did have a big, nasty skeleton in its closet. It was common knowledge among those who knew them that Andreas had been sexually abusing his daughter Victoria since she was 16 years old. Also, a lot of places where you'll read about this story, it insinuates that they had a very consensual relationship with this, which is disgusting. I'm sure you were reading about this. You guys saw that because Yes. A lot of times that's what is inferred by a lot of people. And she was a minor. She was very young. There's no way it was consensual. Yeah, that's disgusting. Yeah. We're not even dignifying that. No. Yeah. I just wanted to throw that out for people because I know a lot of people will go and research these afterwards. And it says that a lot. Just trigger warning. A lot of people say it that way. She tried to use marriage as a means of escape, but it hadn't worked. Andreas made her and her husband Carl live with them. This was a

departure from the social norms of the time, usually when a couple married, they'd move in with the groom's family, not the brides. Poor Victoria must have felt so trapped, and her situation got worse during World War I when Carl joined the army and was killed in action. His body was never recovered, by the way. Remember that little detail, because it'll be important later. After Carl died, Victoria gave birth to his daughter. She named her Cazilia, after her. her mom. And because the world sucks and there is no justice, especially in 1915 Germany, apparently, human hemorrhoid Andreas was declared the baby's legal guardian. Ugh. Yeah, you can't trust women to do anything, am I right? Yeah, just what this man needs

to get full legal guardianship of yet another young girl. That's a great plan. Guy at the flippin German courthouse who approved this bullshit. Great job. Couldn't just let the fully adult woman who gave birth to her razor, could we? Parish the thoughts. Oh, my God, I can't even. Especially since this wasn't a very big town, and the townspeople had, you know, whispered about this for years. So it's not like, I'm sure, like you said, county courthouse guy was probably new about the situation. Anyway. Frikin ridiculous.

That spring, a maid caught Andreas sexually assaulting Victoria. And good for her, she went straight to the cops and reported him. Yeah, can we talk about that for a second before we get. to the awful part that we know is coming next, I just love this badass maid who saw what was happening and just said, oh, uh-uh, nope, and went right to the police. Like, she wasn't worried about keeping her job. She wasn't worried about going up against somebody in a better social position than she was. She just got shit done. And despite the infuriating outcome you're about to tell us about, I think that's pretty rad. We need more people like that made.

You're absolutely right. What you just described would have probably been the norm at the time. Just keep your mouth shut. Oh, absolutely. It's the norm now a lot of times, unfortunately. That's very true. You're absolutely right. Yep. Well, it's rage stroke time, everyone.

Instead of arresting Andreas and throwing him into the dankest, darkest, most spider-infested ubleette that they could find, the police arrested Andreas and Victoria and charged them both with incest. thereby completely ignoring the fact that the sex was non-consensual and that Andreas is a rapist streak of pawn scum. Andreas was incarcerated for one year and Victoria for one month. Sweet justice, huh? And of course, the scandal haunted the family forever after. After Andreas got out of jail, life went back to normal at Hinterkeific. and Victoria went back to work trying to find a way to escape. Remember, this was the 19 teens.

Women had very few options other than find a man, which she had tried to do already and it didn't work. So Victoria set her sights on a well-to-do neighbor. Lawrence Schlittenbauer. He was a good choice. He was rich. He had land. He could tell her to get the hell out of her father's grasp once and for all.

Lawrence had just lost his wife, and he was looking for a woman to keep the hearth fires burning and whatnot, you know, what women do. Yeah, exactly. At first, it all went beautifully. Everything was roses and paper hearts. Lawrence even proposed. But then Lawrence found out about Andreas's assaults on Victoria. And to make matters worse, Victoria got pregnant. Lawrence insisted that the baby wasn't. his, that it must be her father's. He and Andreas got into a big towering argument about it, and Lawrence ended up threatening Andreas with a scythe. Yeah, you're not fucking around when you start brandishing a scythe. And that's hard to walk back afterwards.

There's really no like, hey, I'm sorry I shoved a scythe in your face the other day. I was just really hangary, you know. Once a scythe is in play, that relationship is pretty much dead in the water, I would say, as it should be anyway. I mean, I wouldn't blame Lorenz if he'd cut the guy's damn face off and fed it to him because Andreas should never have been let out of jail in the first place. I'm just saying that's, you know, relationship over. And, of course, after the scythe incident,

scythe incident, wow. The scythe unpleasantness. Andreas told Victoria she couldn't marry Lawrence. Why this grown man should have needed her father's permission to marry, I can't imagine. especially a father like this, but that was the way it was in Germany in the 19-teens, I guess. Victoria was devastated, of course, but Lauren's was mostly relieved. He felt like he had dodged a bullet. Shortly thereafter, Victoria had her baby and named him Joseph.

Andreas tried to get Lawrence to take responsibility for paternity because I guess he was missing the zingy thrill of having a razor-sharp farm implement brandished in his face. But Lawrence refused And he went to the police And accused Andreas Of being Joseph's father And once again

Andreas was arrested On charges of incest This time they didn't arrest Victoria too, thank God Thank God for something Unfortunately though Lawrence recanted his statement a few weeks later And Andreas was released

This asshole is bulletproof It's infuriating It's so often the case, too. And Lorenz later claimed that he only recanted because the family bribed him. So that's real nice, isn't it? I'm sure that made Victoria feel so loved and supported to have her own family pay off the neighbor to keep his mouth shut about her abuse. And fuck you, Lorenz. Not exactly the hero Gotham needed, were you?

Right? Cud. Anyway, fast forward to April 4th. We've got a whole big bunch of drama happening. And the family hasn't been seen in days. when a local mechanic shows up at the Gruber's farm for a scheduled appointment. Andreas had hired him to repair the engine of some farm equipment. As he walked up to the front door, he heard a dog barking in the stables,

the doors of which were shut. Other than that, though, the homestead was eerily quiet. He knocked on the door, but no one answered, and there were no signs of movement inside. He did see a male figure from a distance, out in the field, and assumed it was Andreas. Oh, that's so creepy. That's like, right, that is the part in the movie where you get that da-da-da-da.

He didn't need to talk to anybody to get started, though, so he just kind of shrugged and went to work on the engine for the next few hours. After he finished, he went back to the house to see if Andreas was home yet. The dog he'd heard barking earlier was now tied up in the front of the house, and the poor baby was in obvious distress. He was barking, growling, just super pissed, and he had a big gash across his muzzle. Oh, poor baby.

You know. The mechanic tried knocking on the door again, but nobody answered. He thought it was weird, and he decided to head next door to the Schlott and Bauer's place and visit with his friends Johan and Joseph, Lorenz's two sons. They sat around and shot the breeze for a while, talking about where the heck the groubers might be, but nobody was really concerned until Lorenz got home. Knowing more than most about the family's backstory, he said, come on, we need to round up some of the neighbors and go check on them.

Andreas might have killed himself or hurt his family. Oh, now you care. I know. Suddenly he gives a shit. Right? When they got there, the barn door was standing wide open. The neighbors walked in on a horror scene. Four mutilated bodies lay in bloody stories.

lay in bloody straw, Andreas, Cazilia, Victoria, and Little Cazilia. The nightmare continued inside the house where they found the bodies of two-year-old Joseph and the poor maid, Maria, who had literally just moved in. God, talk about bad timing, that poor woman. That's the saddest part of the whole thing for me, is that that poor maid had just moved in like that, the day that the murders happened. The coroner found her. The coroner found her. horrific injuries on all six victims. The elder Cazilia had been strangled and had seven blunt force blows to the head with what was eventually determined to be a matic, a gnarly looking tool that looks like a cross between a pickax and a regular pickax, a regular axe.

Victoria's skull was crushed and she'd also been hit repeatedly with the matic. Little Cazilia had a shattered jaw and deep wounds on her face and neck. and Andreas's face was basically gone. Little Joseph and Maria had suffered blunt force trauma as well. Everyone had died quickly except a seven-year-old Cazilia. Poor little thing. She lived for several hours after the attack. Oh, no.

Yeah, when they found her body, her hands were tangled in her hair as if she'd been clutching it for comfort as she died. Oh, God, that's so sad, that poor baby. I know. It's like the worst thing you've ever heard. And as if all this wasn't gruesome enough, I'm so sorry, it gets worse. Here's one more little awful detail. To get the autopsies done quickly, the coroner actually had to decapitate the bodies and send them to a lab. And the heads got lost. Yeah, how the hell do you lose six heads?

I mean, one head, okay, maybe you accidentally leave it in the bathroom with a train station on your way to work or something, but six? I'm sorry, some lab tech had a shelf full of heads in his basement or some shit. I'm telling you, you do not just lose six heads. Yeah, apparently they were lost in a World War II bombing, which makes this case even we're weirder than it already was. I mean, now this started in World War I, and now we're talking. Oh, they were destroyed in World War II. Yeah, it's this family. It's crazy.

Yeah, couldn't even win after death. Oh, God. Yeah. Like, I don't mean this in like a funny way, but it's almost like this family feels like a horror movie Forrest Gump. Right. Like, they're like, their stories entangled in these two wars. And like, no one would have heard of them unless this horrible thing hadn't happened to them. Yeah.

I had even read. I've read it, I can't give you a source. I just remember reading this. I think I covered this show, this story on my show, that allegedly one of the coroners who looked at the heads was going to have a clairvoyant look, like, come, like, talk to them or whatever. To the heads? Yeah.

So he's just going to line him up on the shelf or something. I guess and hope they, like, started just talking. Yeah. Wow, that's bonkers. Yeah. And as if they hadn't suffered enough already, all six of the victims had to be buried without their heads. Oh, Lord. Now, you probably think this case has gotten as creepy as it's going to get, right?

Wrong. It gets worse. I know. It just keeps getting worse. It doesn't get better. I'm so sorry. It keeps getting worse. I'm scared.

The investigators quickly determined that the killer had lived in the house for days after the murders. Nope. He'd eaten food. used firewood he fed and cared for the animals that was one thing that the um the neighbors had noticed the animals were being cared for so that was one reason they hadn't thought to go check on them god that's creepy yeah he must have hurt the poor dog too whether intentionally or accidentally during one of the attacks because if you recall the dog oh had a gash across his muzzle i don't know why but the fact that this dude person suspect kept the animal

almost alive and healthy is so unbelievably creepy, like bone chilling. It shows this long-term plan, which conflicted with the fact that he left the bodies out for anyone to find. So it's just, it adds to the mystique of this case because there's so many little tiny details that when you try to like view them from afar, it's like, that doesn't make any sense. Why? This case, it's one of those where it just every time you think you haven't figured out, something else gets thrown in. Like, Once you hear about, like, oh, they lived there for a while and fed the animals and kept, like, took care of the farm. How bizarre. Yeah.

It is completely. I really. This one stumps me. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And, oh, my God. Listen to this. Maria the maid had just started working at the house because the previous maid, you guys, I'm so, it gets, it gets weirder, was convinced the place was haunted.

Why? Because she'd been hearing noises from the attic. Oh, no, uh-uh. And getting that prickly feeling you get when you're being watched. No, ma'am, no ma'am. She tried to tell Andreas about it, but we know he's not the most, you know, he's not a great listener. He's the worst. And he didn't believe her. Surprise, surprise.

Of course he didn't. However, just a few days before the murders, Andreas did tell neighbors that he'd found a random newspaper in the house that didn't belong there. Oh, my God. Plus, there were keys missing. And this is, this is the one, this detail. This gives me chills every time. He'd seen footprints in the snow leading from the forest to the house. and someone had spread straw around the attic

to muffle the sound of footsteps maybe he also the footprints that led to the house he noted that there were none leading away from the house Oh my freaking God I'm never sleeping again Victoria had also told friends that she'd seen a man in an army jacket just standing in the field and watching the house When he saw her, he disappeared into the trees.

Okay, I'm about to wet him. I'm just letting you know, I'm going to wet him if this gets any scarier. And I just bought this office chair. I'm just barely containing the peepee. Get some TCC branded to pens for this episode. I'll go on it. Hey, we'll brand anything we can brand. Oh, my God. And they turn, like, the logos appear when they're wet.

Noah been scared. Okay. Well, let's get to the investigation. Yeah, we haven't even gotten to the investigation. That was all just preamble. That's a little bit, it's a little less terrifying. Investigators initially looked at migrant homeless workers as possible suspects. But the killer had left behind valuables and cats. So this seemed pretty unlikely. Following the rule that whoever discovers the body is always the first suspect, they also looked hard at Lauren's Schlitterbauer, which I think was smart, especially because he was like, oh, whoa, the family's missing. That's weird.

We should go check on him. Oh, definitely. There had certainly been no love lost between Lawrence and Andreas, and the rumor around town was that he and Victoria had still been doing it on the regular. before Lorenz finally got remarried. Some people thought he was probably Joseph's father, which he probably was. Yeah, he probably was. Yeah. On top of all that, Lawrence and his new wife had lost a baby a few weeks before the murders. So the theory was that Lawrence, who was refusing to acknowledge paternity for Joseph and had just taken a huge emotional hit with the death of his child, must have snapped and killed the gruber's.

The problem with this theory is that the killer had clearly been. in the house for days after the murders, and Lawrence hadn't gone missing from home or anything. The investigators interviewed him several times and their instincts told him that he wasn't the type to commit a mass murder. But some people still viewed him with suspicion. When they spoke to the gruber's former maid, she pointed them toward another neighbor, Joseph Thaler. Apparently Thaler had been into her and kept pestering her to go out with him. This guy was familiar with a farm and the farmhouse, knew where stuff was, and had bragged once that he knew where the gruber's kept a stash of money. That sounds like a red flag. Who brags about that without it being

like kind of a threat, you know? Yeah, for sure. Even more red flaggy was the fact that Thaler and his brother were known burglars. A few months prior to the murder, Andreas had caught them trying to steal stuff and chase them off with a rifle like an old-timey farmer. You think he shook his fist at him, too? Like, get off of my land. Oh, definitely. Definitely. If the Thaler brothers wanted to divert the investigator's suspicions away from them, they sure as hell did a bang-up job because shortly after she spoke to the police about them,

the poor former maid started getting death threats from the Thaler family. Way to stay off the radar, guys. If you don't stop accusing us of murder, we're going to commit a murder. Come on, guys. I don't know why I went to Grandpa Simpson voice, by the way. I'm copying Whitney. But, like, y'all, this is elementary. You don't follow up a murder with threats of murder.

That's just stupid. The failers are great suspects on paper. But if you look a little closer, this theory starts to look shakier, mostly because the killer didn't take cash and valuables. Yeah. They definitely had time to empty out the place. The evidence showed that they'd been there for days after the crime. So it seems unlikely. that they had anything to do with the robbery

or this had anything to do with robbery. Over the years, police conducted hundreds of interviews and assessed and reassessed the evidence but they didn't really get anywhere. They looked at an escaped mental patient from the local hospital for the criminally insane. It's always a hospital for the criminally insane. They also looked at a scattering of petty criminals

with no real history of violence, as well as various shady characters from around town. That's so old-timey, like, they're just a shady character. She reads books, so she's pretty shady. But there was no evidence definitively linking anybody to the murders. Now are we ready for the weirdest theory? Oh, hell yes, please. Yeah.

Some people think that Victoria's husband, Carl, remember, the one who was declared dead in World War I, not declared missing, declared dead, but his body was never found, was not actually dead at all. Whoa. Their theory is that Carl must have faked his own death, gone MIA from the war, come back to Hinterkifek and murdered his wife and her entire family because, you know, reasons. I'm sure he had his reasons. I think he showed up, okay, I'm going to entertain this theory. If he did and he showed up and there's a brand. new little boy who cannot

be his. Even though she thought he was dead, you know, hormones and anger. Yeah, you could be right. I mean, yeah. I might get irrationally angry and kill everybody. Why does this child look like the neighbor? I please explain. This bizarre theory makes about as much sense as the

Katie Perry is John Benet Ramsey conspiracy. Hey, I believe in that. Stop. Carl's fellow soldiers saw him die. So everybody chill. Even though it's a great theory. Okay.

One more creepy little detail. Sometime after the murders, the farmhouse was demolished. And under a loose floorboard, the workers discovered the murder weapon. They'd never found it before. So for some reason, the killer had stowed this thing away in the house after killing the family. Yeah, something about that really just skeaves me out. Mm-hmm. So creepy.

This case is still unsolved, but the German authorities were still working on it as recently as 2007. Wow. Yeah. Okay. Shelby, I have to know who is your pet suspect? Okay. My pet suspect is Lorenz. Me too.

Lorenz. Yeah. Because, okay, so I know they said he wasn't missing for three days, but he was next door. He could go. Exactly. That's what I think. He would have had an investment kind of a. an emotional or even a monetary feeling of investment in the animals, you know, because he'd been

around the family and been around the animals. He would know the dog. The dog wouldn't have freaked out if it saw him because he'd been there a bunch of times. When the mechanic saw a dude in the field running away or walking away and then Lawrence showed up later at that, like right after that at the house, like he took the back way home. Yeah, he saw the mechanic. He's like, oh, should I know that guy. And then he shows him and he's like, what? Oh, what you guys talking about, huh? And then immediately he shows up and the sons are like, oh, the groupers, there's weird stuff going on. He's like, oh, we should, we should go take a look.

Yeah, I think he's a very good suspect. Although the one thing that stumps me about that is the previous maid hearing the footsteps up in the attic and everything. But it literally could have just been reckoned. That is a good point. But there is an explanation for that that I researched before we recorded. yes so some people thought that maybe the straw was spread by Andreas because of his trist trist awful thing to say his his rape his consistent assaults of Victoria so like no one could hear when they went out of that that's actually yeah that's a great theory yeah so no one

was actually living in the house it was just on yeah that actually makes a lot of Well, and Victoria kept trying to get away, so the paper could have been something she picked up in town. Yeah, absolutely. And then was like, I don't know what that is, you know. Yeah, and knowing Andreas, like, being like, oh, no, no, no, I don't, I'm, I'm here. So, no, I think, I think we've solved it, ladies. I think it's Lauren's. I think so, too.

Yeah, I think Lorenz is the best suspect for sure. I mean, it's, in every case, there's going to be some stuff that doesn't fit. And you just have to kind of let it bother you, you know, because no case is going to wrap up perfectly. But I think I agree with you, Shelby, that he is the best suspect we've got. And this type of murder, it's never a stranger murder. An entire family. He destroyed the faces.

Like, yeah. And that's the whole thing when they destroy their faces. It's because they don't want to look at them. Overkill. It's personal. Yeah. Yeah, there's like real anger and rage there. And there's no robbery.

Yeah, there was no robbery. He had his own farm. The little girl, I'm wondering if she didn't die right away because he's, he like pulled back a little bit. Yeah, it could be. You know, I don't, I don't know. Now I'm just, now I'm just maybe pulling stuff out of my butt. This is one that I think, like, it doesn't actually have any satisfactory full answer,

but I think we have come up with the best answer. Yeah, exactly. We personally, we, we, we, no one else thinks this. We did it. We cracked it. I'm joking. Yeah. Okay.

Well, holy shit. I am definitely having nightmares tonight from now. Shelby, so thanks for that. You're welcome. But that is, of course, your job as the queen of spooky stories, isn't it? It is. Yeah. Campers, seriously, if you haven't listened to scare you to sleep yet, we cannot recommend it enough. It is just perfection. Yeah, Shelby features a whole array of some of the best new voices in horror, herself included, and just narrates them beautifully. I mean, you've heard what a gorgeous voice she has today, right? Every story is terrifying, its own way. And the music and sound effects, she adds, really create an immersive experience.

I've scared the absolute crap out of myself listening on my twilight walks many times. Like, I've actually physically jumped and screamed and it's just great. If you like to be scared, it's great. Yeah, I have a policy that I cannot listen to Shelby after dark. I can't do it. I enjoy scaring myself. Shelby, is there anything you want to add about your show? Tell us where to find you because I know everybody is going to want to listen. Well, actually, I'm so glad you asked. I've actually become Spotify exclusive so you can find me on Spotify. I'll make it easy for you.

Just one place. Go find me there. Yeah. And I have some fun spooky extras coming out for Halloween. I do these things called guided nightmares. I love the guided nightmares. Oh, I'm so glad. So good.

Those are kind of new to the feed. I take you through guided meditation techniques and to your own. own like you star in your own horror movie basically and I have a Halloween special one coming up soon so check that out that is so fun and congratulations about Spotify we're very proud thank you thank you so much so that was a wild one right campers you know we'll have another one for you next week but for now lock your doors light your lights and stay safe until we get together again around the true crime campfire and we want to send a shout out to a few of our patrons. Thank you so much to Sarah, Sarah, Emily, and Kayla. We appreciate you to the moon

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