True Crime Campfire - Journey Into Darkness: The Stayner Brothers Part 2

Episode Date: December 6, 2024

When we left you at the end of Part 1, fourteen year old Steven Stayner had escaped from seven years of captivity and abuse at the hands of child predator Kenneth Parnell—and he’d rescued Parnell���s next intended victim, a little boy named Timmy White. The story made international headlines, and Steven Stayner became his hometown’s living legend. It was March 1980, both boys were back home safe and Kenneth Parnell was behind bars where he belonged, waiting to go to trial. It seemed like a happy ending. But the story doesn’t end there. The second half of the Stayner saga is even darker than the first. Justice is denied. Secrets come to light. And another member of the family lets his most depraved fantasies cross over to real life.Big thanks to Mike Moran of the podcast Confessional with Mike Moran for doing much of the work/research on this one and last week's! Sources:Wikipedia: Cary StaynerA&E's American Justice, episode The Yosemite KillerThe Crime Reel: Part 2 of The Troubled Lives of the Stayner BrothersCasefile (podcast): Yosemite Sightseer Murders Parts 1 and 2 CBS News: The Yosemite MurdersSF Gate: https://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/defense-to-fight-for-stayner-s-life-lawyers-2820211.phpFollow us, campers!Patreon (join to get all episodes ad-free, at least a day early, an extra episode a month, and a free sticker!): https://patreon.com/TrueCrimeCampfirehttps://www.truecrimecampfirepod.com/Facebook: True Crime CampfireInstagram: https://gramha.net/profile/truecrimecampfire/19093397079Twitter: @TCCampfire https://twitter.com/TCCampfireEmail: [e-mail]! https://true-crime-campfire.myspreadshop.comBecome a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/true-crime-campfire--4251960/support.

Hello, campers. Grab your marshmallows and gather around the true crime campfire. We're your camp counselors. I'm Katie. And I'm Whitney. And we're here to tell you a true story that is way stranger than fiction. We're roasting murderers and marshmallows around the true crime campfire. When we left you at the end of Part 1, 14-year-old Stephen Stainer had escaped from seven years of captivity and abuse at the hands of child predator Kenneth Parnell. and he'd rescued Parnell's next intended victim, a little boy named Timmy White. The story made international headlines, and Stephen Stainer became his hometown's living legend. It was March 1980. Both boys were back home safe, and Kenneth Parnell was behind bars where he

belonged, waiting to go to trial. It seemed like a happy ending. But the story doesn't end there. The second half of the Stainer saga is even darker than the first. Justice is denied. Secrets come to light, and another member of the family lets his most depraved fantasies cross over into real life. This is Journey Into Darkness, the Stainer Saga, Part 2. Parnell possibly try? Oh, I just slipped and accidentally kidnapped two kids. Hate when that happens. And yet, when Parnell first went to trial in 1981, he pled not guilty. Granted, he did have at least one advocate, his mom, who argued that he had to be innocent because he visited her all the time and he'd never brought along a child. Well, mom has spoken. Case closed.

The kidnapping cases of Timothy White and Stephen Stainer were to be tried separately. with Timmy's up first. And because Stephen's classmate, Sean Porman, had helped Parnell grab Timmy, he'd be tried alongside him. Early on, it was unclear how much Stephen was going to cooperate with the prosecution in Timmy's case.

Though his trial was scheduled for later, they did need him to explain to the jury exactly why Parnell had kidnapped both boys. You might think his motive would be obvious to anybody, but the thing is, for a while, Stephen denied that any sexual abuse had happened during his seven years of captivity. He said he'd lived fairly well with Ken.

He even managed to convince his parents of this that Ken was just a sad, lonely man who desperately wanted a child of his own. But for obvious reasons, the investigators were skeptical, especially once they unearthed Parnell's arrest record from decades before. Stephen just didn't want to talk about the abuse he'd been through and who can blame him.

It's really common for survivors of sexual abuse to not want to talk about it. But when naked pictures of Stephen and a friend were found in Parnell's cabin, it was clear he could no longer deny it. Plus, several of Stephen's friends from over the years came forward to say that they were also molested by Parnell. Stephen eventually took the stand in Timmy's trial, and though he wasn't psyched about speaking publicly about the abuse, he did it for the sake of making sure this dude was put behind bars where he damn well belonged.

Bizarrely, once the trial got rolling, Ken Parnell tried to lay the blame on Sean Porman, and for some reason, Porman's stepfather Henry, insisting they'd blackmailed him into taking Timmy. Huh? Parnell seemed to be running pretty dry on that magic manipulation powder

that worked wonders for him in the past, and he was desperately trying to scrape together one last pathetic charade for the courts. He concocted a weird, convoluted story in which he claimed stepdad Henry threatened to blow the whistle on Stevens' kidnapping, if he didn't house Timmy, who was just dropped off one night at his house, totally out of the blue. And the purpose of Henry's plot?

According to Parnell, they'd kidnap Timmy because they needed a young boy to, quote, trade for either money or drugs. Okay, so let's just unpack this. This supposed blackmail plot hinged on the idea that you'd get in trouble for a kidnapping if you refuse to commit another kidnapping. and that Timmy was there because he was eventually going to be traded in for drugs or money. You're going to commit a kidnapping to barter for drugs or money. You know what might be a little bit easier, stealing some drugs or money.

You know, it's probably a lot easier to pull off than a kidnapping. Get this guy a new lawyer, for God's sake. In return, Sean Porman's stepdad Henry said he'd never even met Parnell or Stephen or Timmy in his life. and both Timmy and Stephen confirmed it. Parnell also tossed in some nonsense about Sean and Henry threatening his mom, but surprise, surprise, the jury didn't buy it. Throughout the hearing, Sean Porman maintained that he'd been coerced and threatened by Parnell and had no idea that sexual abuse was ever part of the equation.

He also claimed to have never been paid the 50 bucks Parnell had promised him. Why does that not surprise me? It took the jury two hours to decide on a guilty verdict. Sean Porman, who everyone seemed to agree was just a naive, drug-addled kid who was used by Parnell, was given a lenient sentence. He'd be in a reform school until he reached 18. Obviously, Ken Parnell was the main villain here. So, they were going to throw the book at him. Right? Right?

Yeah, get to a safe place if you're going to need to scream. Because for the kidnapping of Timothy White, Kenneth Parnell was sentenced to a whole seven years. Yeah. That was the maximum in California at the time. But there was still hope. Stevens' trial was up next, and surely his case would give Parnell the sentence he deserved. Stevens' trial turned out to be a lot more complicated than Timmy's, involved a much longer timeline split up amongst multiple jurisdictions as Parnell had moved the two around so much. Plus, the damn seven-year statute of limitations actually took the initial kidnapping off the table. So Kenneth Parnell would be getting off Scott free for the actual kidnapping of Stephen.

He could get in trouble for imprisoning and abusing him, but he'd face zero consequences for the initial objection. Infuriating. Unbelievable. Even proving that Stephen was held against his will by Ken Parnell from age 7 to age 14 turned out to be a challenge. The defense claimed that Stephen had plenty of chances to run over the years and he didn't, So he must have stayed because he wanted to. They zeroed in on Stephen's own admission that he'd figured out he was a kidnapped victim in the fifth grade and argued that Stephen grew to like Parnell better than his own family and chose to stay.

Wow, let's gaslight this poor kid some more. To add more insult to injury, they suggested he may have been lying about the sexual abuse and wanted to prove it with a physical exam. But thankfully, Stephen was never forced to do that. that. A psychiatrist named Dr. Robert Wald was called by the prosecution to shed some light on how Stephen's brainwashed young mind may have worked during his ordeal and why he stayed for so long. Basically, in order to survive in Parnell's world, Stephen had to buy into the myth of being Dennis. He was captive psychologically, not just physically, and those

psychological chains can be even more powerful than the steel ones. The psychiatrist argued that when Timmy showed up, basically a mirror image of the little boy Stephen was when Parnell kidnapped him, it snapped him out of it, forced an acknowledgement of his true identity. And that was it. Irvin Murphy, the cognitively impaired man Parnell had used to help him kidnap and babysit Stephen, was tried alongside Parnell in the second court case. This, despite the fact that Stephen actually defended him somewhat, initially refusing to name him. For some dumbass reason, the state declined to prosecute Parnell's wife, Barbara Matthias, even though she had abused Stephen too. Ervin took the stand, claiming he'd been tricked into helping Parnell kidnap kidnap

kidnapped Stephen. He said he never knew anything about the sexual abuse, but admitted he was relieved when he saw on the news about Stephen's escape. He'd always worried that Parnell might eventually murder the kid. He claimed he'd thought about going to the cops a bunch of times over the years, but Parnell had threatened him, said, I'll tell them, you kidnapped him. And Irvin out every single time. Some people who knew Irvin, including Steven, stood up for him, insisting he was just a gullible guy who got taken for a ride by a master manipulator. And though everybody agreed that Parnell was the ringleader in this whole thing, the court

determined that Irvin Murphy wasn't without fault. He was found guilty and sentenced to five years. As for Kenneth Parnell's sentencing for the kidnapping, imprisonment, and literally hundreds of sexual assaults on Stephen Stainer, he was sentenced to. to eight years and eight months, barely more than the length of time he held Stephen captive. Just unbelievable. So, yeah, take a minute to breathe because it gets worse. Not only did Parnell get a second lenient sentence due to statute of limitations laws, but this eight years, eight months, would run concurrently with the seven years he got for Timmy, meaning he really only got an extra 20 months behind bars. He'd be out before the dawn of the 90s.

Oh, and there was also the option of early release due to good behavior. If it's any consolation, though, just about everybody involved realized how ridiculous these statute of limitations were, including the judge handing down the sentence, and the Stephen Stainer Timothy White cases helped to change California state law, so this bullshit injustice would hopefully never happen again. Stephen was happy to be back with his family in 1980, but his readjustment to normal life was anything but easy. The fact that he was constantly followed around by news reporters probably didn't help. Nor did the Stainer family's staunch opposition to letting him get any kind of psychiatric help, or getting any for themselves. They reluctantly let him see a counselor for a little while, but it didn't last.

And apparently, Stephen never talked about the abuse with anyone in his family. He once even asked his parents if he could go and visit Parnell in jail, which again is not unusual. I mean, there's a thing called a trauma bond. and, you know, we talked about stuff like Stockholm syndrome. I mean, it's very complicated the psychology, especially when somebody's abducted that young. So he asked if he could go and visit in jail, and his parents responded with silence,

just pretending like he'd never asked. While living with Parnell, Stephen was able to numb some of his pain with booze and drugs. He didn't like that his family wouldn't even let him smoke cigarettes, let alone the other stuff. He wasn't used to any kind of structure in general, and he felt smothered by house rules. So not long after his homecoming, Stephen started to clash with family, especially his father. His school attendance was sporadic for his first year home, since he was often in court or doing interviews.

And when he did go, he found it hard to concentrate with the media always lying in wait outside. They were sometimes even allowed to film him inside the building. You can look up the footage online, which I can't imagine helped him focus on his studies. And when the cameras weren't on him, other kids, jealous of all the attention he was getting, started teasing him about his publicized abuse, calling him gay slurs, which is just great, kids. Stephen hasn't been through enough already. Damn, teenagers can be the worst sometimes. He did do a lot of dating, though.

Later, he admitted he kind of went sex crazy in his teenage years to try to try to, encounter all the homophobic slurs. Despite the Rocky Road, Stephen stuck it out for all four years of high school, but he ultimately failed several courses in his senior year, and since he never made them up, he never officially graduated. Once he hit 18, Stephen received the $15,000 in reward money, about $45,000 in today's money, for rescuing Timmy White, that had been waiting for him in a trust. He also got 25K, about 75 grand today, for the media rights to his life's story. Apparently, though, he blew through this cash in record time and was dead broke before he turned 19. Damn. I mean, it is true that handing a teenage kid that type of money is likely not going to go well,

but 40 grand. Like, that's 120K today, just gone almost immediately with nothing to show for it. that would be impressive, you know, if it wasn't so awful. So where'd the money go? Well, his sister borrowed some to help pay for her wedding. Some went toward a pile of unpaid traffic tickets, and the rest was, by all accounts, just kind of partied away. Things finally got so bad that Dell kicked Stephen out of the house, the father that had once spent nearly every spare moment he had

trying to bring his son home. I really, really wish this family had gotten some therapy to help them through this. It might have made a big difference. But as Stephen entered his 20s, things seemed to be turning around. After a bad drinking binge, he was hospitalized for several days with alcohol poisoning. And from then on, Stephen swore off drinking and dedicated himself to putting the pieces of his fractured life back together. In 1985, 20-year-old Stephen married the love of his life, Jody Edmondson, and they had a daughter named Ashley. Times were still tough. They both worked 50 hours a week at a KFC and were living in a cramped trailer with roommates, but they had each other

and they had a positive outlook and they were determined to keep moving forward. By 1989, they were in a much better place. Stephen was in school to become a security officer, was volunteering and advocating on behalf of abused children, and joined a church. And he and Jody had a second child now, a boy they named Stephen Jr. And although he still had to work at a pizza place while in training, the family got a nice financial windfall with the television release of I Know My First Name is Stephen, the TV movie based on Stephen's story. NBC hired Stephen as a script advisor and even gave him his acting debut with a cameo appearance as a cop. I know my first name is Stephen aired in 89 with both massive ratings and critical praise, scoring nominations in both the Emmys and Golden Globes that year. And then, one night, Stephen was heading home from his shift at the pizza place. He was riding his brand new motorcycle, which he'd bought with some of the money from the miniseries, and a car suddenly pulled out in front of him. As fate would have it, the car just happened to stall at that moment,

sending Stephen flying through the air and crashing headfirst into the road. In another horrible twist of fate, his motorcycle helmet had been stolen a few days before, and he hit the ground full force. Stephen died in the hospital a few hours later. He was only 24 years old. The driver was a 28-year-old named Antonia Loera. He admitted later that he had been drinking that night, and in a panic ditched the car at a nearby parking lot after the accident

instead of trying to help Stephen and then fled to Mexico. His wife was soon able to talk him into turning himself in. A lot of people were skeptical at first that the involuntary stalling of a car was to blame, but experts looked into it, and it turned out the accident really was caused by manufacturing issues. Loera did get three months in jail for leaving the scene, though, as he should have. Yeah, that hits home for me. My brother almost died in a motorcycle crash about 10 years ago, and it was a hit and run, too.

So somebody, we still don't know who or why, left him to die in a ditch. Unfortunately, he didn't. Somebody came up on the scene and called an ambulance, but it's just chilling to me that somebody was willing to let my brother bleed out rather than take responsibility. Years later, sculptor Paula Slater completed a life-sized sculpture of Stephen and Timmy for Applegate Park and Merced, inscribed with a plaque that honors how Stephen took the time to educate law enforcement, school, and parent groups on the insidious methods of sex predators. Even today, Stephen Stainer is remembered for being far more than a figure in an interesting true crime story, but a symbol of resilience and bravery in the face of unimaginable circumstances. Rest in power, Stephen. And thank you for being awesome.

Kenneth Parnell was released from prison after serving just five years of his seven-year sentence due, of course, to good behavior. Yeah, I'm sure all the kids he abused really appreciate that he never got any write-ups in prison. Apparently, he kept his cell immaculate. That's a great reason to let a sex predator out early. Makes perfect sense. You know, good behavior. What about his friggin' behavior before? What about the behavior he's in there for?

That's just some bullshit, man. It's one thing if it's like a nonviolent offense, but for this guy? Jeez, Louise. Just I don't understand it. In fact, Parnell finished his parole just over a year before Stephen's death, and now he was free as a bird. No registration, no check-ins, no court-ordered therapy, nothing. So just to break this down, Parnell's entire punishment

for two kidnappings and hundreds of instances of child abuse, was shorter than Stephen's time in captivity. And when Kenneth Parnell was again brought to the public's attention due to the TV miniseries, he was discovered to now be working in where else, a boy's home. Yeah, this child-abusing piece of shit had a job working directly with children. And in Oakland, California,

like you'd think he'd want to hide out in a different state, but nope, not our Ken. Fortunately, once they figured out who he was, the boy's home fired Ken this dumbass, which I'm honestly kind of pleasantly surprised about, with as sneaky as Ken was and how lax California's child predator laws were at the time. By 2002, Ken's lifestyle of beer, junk food, and three packs of pall malls a day finally caught up with him. He had a stroke, piled on top of his pre-existing diabetes and emphysema, and now this 71-year-old creep needed round-the-clock care. You'd think a guy that busted up wouldn't be a danger anymore, but you'd be wrong.

The only thing stronger than Parnell's many ailments was his urge to kidnap and molest another child. And so, apparently unsatisfied with merely being the world's biggest piece of shit, Ken tried to bribe his caregiver Diane to find him a new victim. Offered her 500 bucks. And Diane, bless her, went straight to the cops. Soon, our boy Ken found himself. at the center of an FBI sting operation. They tapped his phone and got him saying he wanted, quote,

a young African-American boy, and possibly a young girl, too. He had other specs as well, but they are too disgusting for me to say out loud. Like, trust me, you do not want to hear it. I literally just, ugh, cringed all over. The FBI put the habeas grab us on kin and searched his place. They found it full of toys and other children's things, children's clothes, sex toys, porn videos, condoms, and a bottle literally marked libido pills. This time, Ken admitted to trying to buy a child, but assured everybody that it wasn't for any

weird sexual reasons, perish the thought. He simply wanted to raise a kid in a wholesome, loving home. Yeah, sure, bud. So tell me what you think. Have we ever found a better candidate for the woodchipper than this guy? Because I don't think so. I think this guy's like number one on my list. Needs to go in dick first, if you ask me. At trial, Ken's lawyer tried to keep his previous convictions from being used against him, but the judge wasn't having it. And finally, some good news. For once in his miserable life, this asshole finally experienced some real consequences, 25 years to life in prison. And prison was where he sat, until in 2008 his health gave out and he died at age 76, leaving the world a slightly

cleaner, nicer place. There was one other good thing to come out of Kenneth's trial. Both Timmy White, now an adult and going by Timothy, and Sean Porman, were both called to testify against Parnell, and during a break in the proceedings, they actually had a conversation. Sean apologized to Timothy, and Timothy forgave him, and they hugged it out. Very sweet. After his escape from Parnell, Timothy White was able to get back to his life and grow up

healthy and happy. He grew into an avid sailor, and like Stephen, he took time to volunteer with children, talking to them about personal safety and the dangers of predatory adults. By 2005, he'd married his wife, Dina, had two kids, and was working as a sheriff's deputy in L.A. County. And then out of nowhere, in April 2010, Timothy White literally just fell over and died of a pulmonary embolism. He was 35 years old. So Kenneth Parnell abused people his whole life, treated his own body like garbage, and lived to be almost 80. Stephen and Timothy devoted themselves to helping others and died young. It just doesn't seem fair.

It sucks. Timothy's wife, Dina, and their two children summed up their love and respect for Tim with two simple words on his headstone. Our hero. So far, we've presented the Stainer family from the perspective of a grieving household. desperately trying to find their child, which they were. But there was a lot more going on behind the scenes. Like we said in the last episodes, things got understandably tense in the Stainer family

while Stephen was missing. The unimaginable stress of the situation combined with a family stigma against therapy led to fiery emotions and unintentional neglect. And that ended up fracturing a lot of relationships within the family, including an eventual divorce between Delbert and Kay. And of course, we sympathize. I mean, there's no handbook on how to act when one of your children disappeared. years. But in the 2000s, some dark secrets about the Stainer family started coming to light.

Unearthed records from 1986 revealed that Del Stainer was ordered into court-appointed therapy for molesting one or more of his three daughters. Oh, come on. The same man whose youngest son had been held captive for years by a depraved pedophile was engaging in similar behavior under his own roof. And it didn't stop there. Apparently, The family had these issues going back for generations. Wow. Kay Stainer eventually spoke about having been molested by her father, too. Remember Stephen's grandfather from part one,

the one who said that they were better off with one less mouth to feed? Well, that was him. And Kay still took him into their home when he got too old to take care of himself. She says she kept him a safe distance from her children, and I hope to God that's true. Good Lord. At one point, they let their older son, Carrie, stay with his uncle Jerry, despite the fact that Jerry was already a convicted pedophile. Carrie and one of his cousins later reported being molested by him.

Oh, Lord. And as a grim little PS to this part of the story, in 1990, Uncle Jerry was shot to death by an unlooned assailant while Carrie was living with him. It makes you wonder, is this why they never talked to Stephen about his abuse by Parnell? was this why they were so allergic to the idea of family counseling and therapy? Yeah. It makes sense. Maybe they were trying to protect their family secrets. Or just not willing to confront it because it was too painful.

I mean, you know, it's at least from Kay's perspective. Yeah, I think it's, I think from a, I think it's just a lot of, I don't want to deal with it. I don't want to look at it. It's like ignoring the spot of mold in your, in your bathroom until it gets. It's too big to ignore. Clearly, the darkest of possible clouds hovered over the stainer family, kidnapping, alcoholism, fatal accidents, molestation, and murder. Not to mention having to watch Ken Parnell walk free after just a few years in jail. But the worst is still to come.

There was still older brother Carrie, who since the age of seven had been harboring twisted fantasies. While younger brother Stephen was navigating life in captivity, Carrie was slowly succumbing to his demons in the background, unbeknownst to anyone. Carrie Stainer was born in 1961, making him four years older than Stephen. Like we said before, Carrie had trichotillomania, an anxiety disorder that gives you an obsessive urge to pull out your own hair. Carrie had had it since the age of three, and after starting school, he got bullied for his bald patches, so he started wearing a baseball cap to hide them.

You can see him wearing one in almost every pre-arrow. picture of him online. By the time he was seven years old, Kerry was already having violent fantasies. One day, at the grocery store with his mom, he was suddenly struck with the idea of killing all the female cashiers. He talked about it later as some kind of creepy milestone in his journey towards sadism. Intrusive thoughts plagued him constantly. He started to hear voices. He even recalled that when he was 11, shortly before Stephen disappeared, he was suddenly struck with the terrible fear that his mom would be kidnapped. When his class learned about the Holocaust in school, Carrie was fascinated. He couldn't get enough of the horrible stories from the

concentration camps. He thought a lot about different ways of torturing people. Women, especially. Captive women. The line seemed to blur for Carrie in his adolescent years between horrific, unwanted visions and titillating fantasies. He sometimes thought that Stephen must have been abducted, as a punishment from God for his dark daydreams. As a teenager, he developed into a muscular, handsome young guy and seemed to attract female attention at school, but he shied away from dating. His friend said he was interested in sex with women,

and that's about it. He was completely inept at actually talking to them, and his awkwardness seemed to barricade him from anything further. Okay, so like about 70% of teenage boys at this point, but, no, it was a lot worse with Carrie. One night his sister had a friend's sleep over, and Carrie touched her inappropriately, then took out his penis and showed it to her. Ugh. To his friends and classmates, though, Carrie appeared from the outside to be a fairly normal teenager.

He was a little introverted, but he hung out with others, did well in class, smoked cigarettes and weed, listened to heavy metal, and was superb at drawing cartoons. When Stephen came home, Carrie was 18. He'd graduated high school and was working as a window installer. He found himself overwhelmed with the vision of smashing his car into the office of the company he worked for and killing everyone inside. He never did it, thank God. Though he'd once been really close with Stephen, the two brothers didn't get along very well as time went on. They still shared the same bedroom, but Carrie had a hard time relating to him now

and felt ignored when Stephen got so much attention. Many of the stainer kids have admitted that they felt Stephen got a little cocky at times in his teenage years with all the admiration he was getting. But come on, what teenager wouldn't? I know I sure as hell would have. For most of his 20s, Carrie felt fairly lost, spending much of his time wandering Yosemite, smoking weed and lying out in the sun. And then in 1989 and 90, brother Stephen and Uncle Jerry, who Carrie was living with at the time, died back to back. Carrie was apparently at work when his uncle was shot and told police he suspected a sketchy-looking guy he'd seen hanging around a few days before. The double trauma of two close family members dying in a year's time hit all the stainers hard, but it hit Carrie like a freight train. He attempted suicide in 91.

In 95, he felt like he was having a nervous breakdown and checked himself into a mental hospital. He got into heavier drugs and got arrested for possession of meth in 901. Later that same year, he decided to get a job at Yosemite. He was there all the time anyway. And he was hired by the Cider Lodge Motel to work as a handyman. And this is where his disturbing fantasies would eventually become reality. Carrie Stainer's first confirmed murders were 42-year-old Carol Sund, her 16-year-old daughter Julie, and a 15-year-old Argentinian foreign exchange student,

Sylvina Pelosi, who was staying with the family. That's sad. Carrie had been stalking and spying on the women from the moment they checked into the hotel in February of 99. On the 15th, Carol, Sylvina, and Julie rented some movies from the front desk and walked back to their room. They had no idea they were being watched, and they were in a fun mood. There's a haunting photo Julie took of Carol and Sylvina, just as they were getting settled back into their room that night. They're sitting on their beds, smiling for the camera, unaware of the monster lurking just. outside. That picture absolutely freaks me out. Like, I just can't even look at it. It's so

disturbing because, I mean, it was literally like minutes. Oh, it's so creepy. Likely within minutes of that photo, Carrie Stainer knocked on their door. He showed them his handyman credentials and insisted there was a leak he needed to fix. They let him inside. As the movie Jerry McGuire played on the hotel room's TV, Carrie brought out a handgun and proceeded to tie the women up and gag them. And then, in a scene that can only be described as hell on earth, Carrie Stainer spent the next few hours indulging in the darkest perversions he had harbored since he was seven years old.

He killed Carol outright, strangled, and shot her, which must have made it so much worse for the two girls. Oh, you know. He attacked Sylvina Pelosi next, sexually assaulted, and shot her. Then Carrie put both of their bodies in the trunk of the car they had rented and forced Julie, devastated and terrified, into the front seat. She was still bound and gagged. Carrie even took the time to methodically clean out the rented room, loading all his victim's luggage in the car so it looked like they left early the next morning. He even

dropped their keys in the overnight box at the front desk. For reasons unknown, Carrie then drove several hours to Lake Don Pedro, where he assaulted Julie in the early morning of February the 16th. When he was finished, he slit her throat. Unexplicably, he left her body there and drove the rental with Carol and Sylvina's bodies in the trunk another hour deep into the park's terrain to an area known as Long Barn. Then he hiked to a store in the park

and returned to the motel later that day in a taxi. I can't even imagine being that taxi driver and having no idea he were driving. I know, God, that's creepy. Like, imagine finding out later and just, oh, my God. Yen's sonned, Carol's husband, and Julie's dad was scheduled to pick up the three women at the airport that same day. When they didn't show, Yen started to worry. Maybe they'd gotten to a car accident on the way to the airport.

He went to the motel, but there was no sign of them there. The three women were soon declared missing persons, and with no signs of foul play, most people figured they'd gotten lost in the wilderness of the park. Deeply concerned members of the Sun family soon temporarily, relocated at Yosemite to set up camp so they could search around the clock. They spoke to everyone they could and put together a $250,000 reward. Suspicion of something sinister emerged when Carol's purse was found 100 miles away in Modesto, California, and the FBI was brought in.

As it turned out, Carrie had gone back to the abandoned car with a gas can two days after the murder and set it on fire. While he was there, he decided it would be a good idea to steal Carol's purse, drive to Modesto, and toss it out the window, just to throw off the searchers. There was a network of meth manufacturers and dealers in the area, and investigators wondered if the women might have stumbled upon something they weren't supposed to see. It's been known to happen. The FBI interviewed all the Yosemite staff, including Carrie, but his legal record was clean of any violent behavior, so he didn't stand out. Four weeks later, the burned-out car, along with the charred remains of Carol Sund and Sylvina Poloso, was finally found.

But Julie was still missing. Not long after the first two bodies were discovered, a letter arrived at the police station. It included a hand-drawn map to the body of Julie Sund and the line, We had fun with this one. The map was accurate. It led them right to Julie. Clearly, this was from the real killer. We had fun with this one.

Makes me wonder if Carrie was trying again to throw off the investigators, suggesting that there were multiple killers involved in the case. Maybe that's why he left the bodies in two different places, too. As devastated as the families were to have confirmation of their loved ones' deaths, by April of 1999, they could at least take solace in the fact that the police were confident they had the killers in custody. They arrested several local meth addicts, each with a history of criminal behavior. and it was these arrests that made Carrie's next victim, a 26-year-old naturalist named Joy Armstrong, feel like Yosemite was safe now. Outdoorsy Joy worked with the non-profit Yosemite Institute, teaching kids about the beautiful natural wonders in the park.

She was absolutely adored by her friends and family, not to mention the kids she taught, the kind of person who radiated joy and kindness. Her passion for nature was infectious, and she had a heart of self. solid gold. Carrie later said he hadn't planned on killing again so soon. He knew it would be hard to dodge suspicion a second time, but when he briefly met and talked to Joy Armstrong one day at the park, he threw that caution in the trash. On the evening of July 21st, Carrie approached Joy in her parked car outside the cabin she lived in. He pulled his gun and tied her up. He tried to drive off with her, but Joy expertly maneuvered around her restraints and somehow found a way to jump out of the moving vehicle, which is just incredibly brave. But Joy was still partially bound, and the jump

knocked the wind out of her. Carrie stopped the car and shot her to death. And then he took his MO to a horrific new level. He took out a hunting knife and cut off her head. She was found the next day. Carrie's car was reported in the area, and authorities questioned him almost immediately, this time with a much more critical eye. They found him in possession of a handgun, a huge hunting knife, rope, and even a pulpy adventure novel that graphically fetishized violence against women Bundy. Love those novels, too, by the way. They didn't have enough to bring him in at the time, but told him not to leave town. Carrie immediately disobeyed and hauled ass out of there. Now the police were really getting

suspicion. They had the local TV station flash Carrie's face on the nightly news as a person of interest in the Joy Armstrong killing. And what do you know? They got a hot tip. From the owner of a nearby nudist colony. He's definitely here, the guy told 911. And so he was. When police arrived, Carrie surrendered without incident. No word on whether he was naked at the time. I guess it would save them the trouble of frisking him. There was some road construction going on at the time, so the drive back to Yosemite police headquarters took forever, and Carrie was a chatty Kathy the whole way there. He talked a lot about his famous brother Stephen's story. The officers later remembered how calm he seemed the whole time, despite the deep shit he was in. Carrie didn't confess immediately, but when a local TV reporter was granted access to the jail for an interview, Carrie spilled.

To everyone's surprise, he calmly explained that he had killed not just Joy Arbor. Armstrong, but Carol and Julie's son and Sylvina Pelosi too. He also insisted he didn't sexually assault any of them, which is absolutely a lie. Bundy did that too. I don't know why they do that. Yeah, it's like they're not ashamed of the murder, but they're ashamed of the sex stuff. It's really strange. I think Gacy did it too, but Gacy, it was because he didn't want to be gay.

But yeah, it's all of them. It's just, it's so weird. It's like, yeah, I killed him, but I would never. I would never. It's like, oh, right, dude. Yeah, it's really strange. Carrie made an awkward attempt to bargain with the police and FBI in return for his full cooperation, and y'all are going to have to buckle up for this.

His first request was to have a TV miniseries made about him, similar to the one Stephen had. Oh, my God. So he wanted to be the more famous Stainer brother. Good God. Is anyone hearing a distant cry about a piano? No. Bill Bradfield-esque sibling jealousy from season one of DCC. Like, what do you? Like, he's so focused on one-upping his dead brother. Like, what are you doing? Oh, Lord. He also wanted his parents to get the reward money put up for the capture of the Yosemite killer, as well as promise that he could do his time in prison close to his parents.

Lastly, he asked the FBI to rummage through their evidence. in slockers and bring him some child exploitation material, just to entertain him during his prison's day. Yeah, that's got to be the most bizarre and obviously most disgusting request I have ever heard of a suspect making. Good God. Just get me a box of pictures of kids being sexually exploited, please, so I can entertain myself in jail. Lord have mercy. Like, oh, what bargaining power do you think you have, Carrie? I know. You've already, yeah, to the reporter. Do you think that's inadmissible?

Do you think there's like some kind of journalist, interviewee, confidentiality? What the fuck are you thinking? It's like a confessor and entire news watching public confidentiality clause. It's like, I just, I genuinely, this is one of the more baffling, like, chess games that a, that a killer's played. because it was like he immediately knocked his king off the board and was like, I win

He thought he was playing chess he was playing connect for Meadless to say Kerry got exactly none of what he asked for but he did eventually cop to pretty much everything and accepted that he'd probably spend

the rest of his life in prison in exchange for his guilty plea in Joey's case the prosecutor took the death penalty off the table The plea deal also stipulated that Carrie could never profit off his own story, which, thank God. It seems like in the short few years between Kenneth and Carrie, the California justice system got their shit together. He pled not guilty by reason of insanity in the Sunned Pelosi trial.

His lawyer argued that Carrie had a mental breakdown when his brother Stephen disappeared, that he never had treatment for it, and that he was abused by his uncle Jerry from the age of 11. He told the court that Carrie suffered from OCD, autism, and schizophrenia, among other disorders. But the prosecution pointed out how he'd fantasized about murder since he was seven years old, well before Stephen went missing. It was a dramatic trial. At one point, Sylvina's father rushed Carrie during a break in the proceedings. I assume intending to kick the shit out of him. Security had to hold him back.

And I know this is against the spirit of laws of justice. I know it's wrong. But sometimes I wish the bailiffs would just let them get one kick, you know? Just one kick in. Just let him get one good shot in. Yeah. Sometimes they do. I don't think it's on purpose, but sometimes because I think the way you have to see it as like a police officer or bailiff is like, I'm not protecting the killer.

I'm protecting this person from having to go to jail, which is like fair, I guess. But also just like one free kick, you know, just one. Carrie's mother Kay, scared of losing yet another son, pleaded with the court to spare his life. If him dying could bring those people back, I would say do it, she said. But executing him is not going to bring them back. But the judge wasn't persuaded. For the murders of Carol and Julie Sund and Sylvina Pelosi, Carrie was found guilty and sentenced to death. He's still on death row at San Quentin Prison. After Carrie's conviction, people started to question whether Carrie might be responsible for more than just the four murders he was in prison for.

As we mentioned earlier, Carrie's uncle Jerry, the same one who had abused him as a child, was killed with his own gun in 1990, while a 29-year-old Carrie was living with him. The accepted theory for years was that Carrie was at work when Jerry came home from work for a lunch break and interrupted a burglary. Carrie and others pointed to a suspicious-looking dude seen hanging out around the area in the days before, but no one was ever arrested. Of course, with these new revelations, people wondered if Jerry's killing could have been revenge for Carrie for abusing him years before. There were also several Yosemite cold cases that seemed to fit Carrie's M.O.

There was 24-year-old Cheryl and Murphy, whose hands and feet were found severed from her body in 1994. 34-year-old Denise Smith, whose charred body parts were found in a burn barrel later that same year. There was 20-year-old Michael Madden, who seemed to have disappeared into thin air while camping with some friends in 96. But the strangest Yosemite killing potentially linked to Carrie Stainer goes all the way back to the early 80s. You know, we honestly went into this believing that Carrie Stainer's murder convictions would be the last chapter in this near endless pageant of tragedy, but no such luck. Just as we were about to wrap up the case, we discovered yet another possible layer to this noxious little onion from hell. We've got yet another murder,

potentially another well-known serial killer, and last but not least, a frickin' cult. Y'all okay? Just stay with us. We got this. So let's go back yet again to Merced, California, home of the Stainer family in the late 70s. The Stainers were friendly with another family in town,

the Gibson's. Son Donald Gibson had spent his 20s working for the Merced Parks and Recreation, teaching yoga, and eventually gathering followers for his cult, which he called the Sananda Apostolic Church, which welcomed followers of all kinds, but especially teenage boys. Like so many of the cult leaders we've seen before, Gibson declared himself to be a divine celestial entity or some shit, one whose enlightenment could only be transferred to his adherence through, oh, God, how do I put this, BJs? Yeah, Gibson's methods usually involved getting high school-aged males wasted on hallucinogens

and then performing oral sex on them. So, you know, sexually assaulting them. Though Carrie Stainer for sure knew Donald Gibson and would have been the perfect demographic for his creepy little cold, there's no solid evidence to suggest he was ever a part of it. But, When Gibson was eventually arrested, Carrie was spotted regularly attending his trial. One key witness who testified against Gibson was a woman in her late 20s named Patricia Hicks, a one-time follower of his who had moved to Merced from Washington State. Gibson was convicted, but they let him out on bail while he was awaiting sentencing, since, as we have established, California in the 80s seemed to have some of the most lax laws imaginable

when it came to sex offenders. And surprise, surprise, he soon started missing his court appearances, and everyone slowly realized he'd skipped town. He was rumored to have gone to Mexico, but in fact, nobody really knows for sure, and to this day, he's never resurfaced. After Gibson went on the lamb, Patricia Hicks decided to start fresh,

and she boarded a bus bound for Yosemite Park in 1982. Parts of Patricia's body were discovered in 1980. with other parts not found until five years later. The effect the freezing temperatures in the winter had on the remains made it hard to pinpoint exactly when she was murdered, but it was probably not long after she got there. Now, as I'm sure y'all know, every now and again, you get this kind of weird crossover in true crime, connections that might be coincidence or might be something more sinister. Right, like Jeffrey Dahmer just happening to live within a few miles of where Adam Walsh,

was abducted or Scott Peterson happening to have been at the same party as Kristen Smart the night she went missing or that creep Jimmy Saville happening to cross paths with the silent twins in Broadmoor Hospital and trying to pray on them. And just like in those cases,

the story we're about to tell may sound like some kind of true crime fan fiction, but nevertheless, here we are. Enter the confession killer himself, Henry Lee, Lucas. Yeah. Yep. Henry Lee Lucas, the depraved thieving, murdering, raping, dumb-ass drifter,

whose decades-long cross-country crime spree was followed by an endless string of confessions, many of which were prodded along by irresponsible cops, and many of which were lies. I mean, my dude confessed to almost a thousand murders. Nobody's got that kind of time. But despite his colorful imagination, the fact is that Lucas was a serial killer, and most people agree that at least some of his confessions were real. One of those is the murder of Patricia Hicks. According to Lucas, he met Patricia and Yosemite.

He said they ate fried chicken and drank together, had sex, and then he killed her. They think this could have been one of his true accounts because he was in the area at the time and because CSIs found beer cans and chicken bones in the exact place he said they would. But others think it's far more likely that her death was related to the Gibson, and her testimony against their leader. Maybe Donald Gibson was hiding close enough to Yosemite to take his revenge on her after he went AWOL. Or maybe, just maybe.

His buddy Carrie Stainer did his dirty work instead. Though no one close to Carrie has really said anything about him being in the cult, it still seems like a possibility. I'm sure. Carrie's parents admitted they neglected him while Stephen was missing. They didn't know what he was up to 24-7, not even. close. To this day, the murder of Patricia Hicks is still insolved. Some may say it's unlikely that Carrie would keep quiet about any other murders he committed. He's already on death row,

and he was pretty forthcoming about the four he was convicted of, but who knows? Carrie himself has admitted that he doesn't understand why he did the things he did. It's not unheard of for a serial killer to confess to some murders and keep others close to the chest. So that's about it, folks. I think we've finally reached the end of the road in this troubled, complicated story. Stephen Stainer's story and all the ones that surround it remind us that sometimes good doesn't win the day, that both the evil of men and the random chance of fate don't always favor the innocent. In other words, shit happens. But for all the ugly, awful things in this story, there are bright spots too. Stephen's selfless courage rescuing Timmy White,

Stephen and Timmy's efforts to make meaning out of their pain by volunteering with children later in life and helping them understand the dangers of adult predators. Enjoy Armstrong's vibrant, kind spirit and love of nature. And in the many people who pledged their time and effort in helping however they could in these cases. It's like Mr. Rogers once said, in the darkest times, look for the helpers.

So that was a wild one, right, campers? You know, we'll have another one for. you next week. But for now, lock your doors, light your lights, and stay safe until we get together again around the true crime campfire. Huge thank you to our friend Mike Moran of the confessional podcast with Mike Moran for the hard work he put into this episode and last weeks. He really went above and beyond to root out every detail of this unbelievable story. Check out his podcast. It's terrific. Katie and I have both been on it before. It's great. And as always, we want to send a grateful shout out to a few of our lovely patrons.

Thank you so much to Shayla, Teresa, Molly, Max, Nikki, and Ashreda, such pretty names. We appreciate y'all to the moon and back. And if you're not yet a patron, you're missing out. Patrons of our show get every episode ad-free, at least a day early, sometimes two, plus tons of extra content, like patrons-only episodes and hilarious post-show discussions. And once you hit the $5 and up categories, you get even more cool stuff. Like a free sticker at $5, a rad enamel pin, or fridge magnet, while supplies last, at $5. 10 virtual events with Katie and me and we're always looking for new stuff to do

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