True Crime Campfire - Less Dead: Serial Killer Robert Willie Pickton, FINALE

Episode Date: September 20, 2024

Psychologist Rolio May said, “Hate is not the opposite of love. Apathy is.” Over the course of the last three episodes, we’ve discussed how apathy paved the way for a horrific criminal to wreak havoc on the women of Vancouver. Willie Pickton was only allowed to continue his crimes, to rack up the number of bodies he did, because the government and the police didn’t do their jobs, were apathetic to the cries for help coming from the downtown eastside. Today, we have finally reached the conclusion to this chilling story. Justice will finally be served, but just a little too late for too many women. Free shipping and 365-day returns from Quince: https://quince.com/happycamperTry Magic Mind: You have a limited offer you can use now, that gets you up to 48% off your first subscription or 20% off one time purchases with code TCC20 at checkout! Claim it at: https://magicmind.com/tccpodSources:Cameron, Stevie. On the Farm: Robert William Pickton and the Tragic Story of Vancouver's Missing Women. Knopf Canada. Kindle Edition. https://www.nativehope.org/missing-and-murdered-indigenous-women-mmiw?utm_term=mmiw%20statistics&utm_campaign=MMIW+-+Search&utm_source=adwords&utm_medium=ppc&hsa_tgt=kwd-1652454857508&hsa_grp=144380966783&hsa_src=g&hsa_net=adwords&hsa_mt=b&hsa_ver=3&hsa_ad=646853914079&hsa_acc=3651624507&hsa_kw=mmiw%20statistics&hsa_cam=19633980915&gad_source=1&gclid=CjwKCAjwlbu2BhA3EiwA3yXyu8y0N86jvR6NFomqQUWY1AD3h0y48ITuUopInfNw6Tb_MBFkRKbaRhoC0ikQAvD_BwEThe Guardian: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2005/aug/05/features11.g2Follow us, campers!Patreon (join to get all episodes ad-free, at least a day early, an extra episode a month, and a free sticker!): https://patreon.com/TrueCrimeCampfirehttps://www.truecrimecampfirepod.com/Facebook: True Crime CampfireInstagram: https://gramha.net/profile/truecrimecampfire/19093397079Twitter: @TCCampfire https://twitter.com/TCCampfireEmail: [e-mail]! https://true-crime-campfire.myspreadshop.comBecome a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/true-crime-campfire--4251960/support.

Hello, campers. Grab your marshmallows and gather around the true crime campfire. We're your camp counselors. I'm Katie. And I'm Whitney. And we're here to tell you a true story that is way stranger than fiction. We're roasting murderers and marshmallows around the true crime campfire. Psychologist Rolio May said, Hate is not the opposite of love. Apathy is. Over the course of the last three episodes, we've discussed how apathy paved the way for a horrific criminal to wreak havoc on the women of Vancouver.

Willie Picton was only allowed to continue his crimes to rack up the number of bodies he did because the government and the police didn't do their jobs. We're apathetic to the cries for help coming from the downtown east side. Today we have finally reached the conclusion to this chilling story. Justice will finally be served, but just a little too late for too many women. This is Part 4 of Less Dead. Serial Killer Robert Willey Picked him. By March, Vancouver PD's Chief Constable Bruce Chambers was sick and tired of hearing about this alleged serial killer in his streets.

He pointed to Project Amelia, the team put together to review the missing women's cases, and said that, we keep reviewing this because we're not. We hear the concern from the community, but we've found nothing that would indicate there's a serial killer involved in these missing people. Yeah, we found no evidence that the sky is blue either, man. Like, what do you mean? No, like, you found nothing. Okay, what about the, like, legion of missing women? Would that be considered evidence at all?

Like, geez, Louise. Bruce and the other VPD officers were hearing hoofbeats behind them and assuming it was a zebra and not a horse. In fact, the Vancouver government had set up a 100K award for information related to a series of home invasions, and when the families of the missing women were like, uh, what the fuck? Why don't you offer a reward for our cases? The mayor responded, no bodies have been found. The police have a procedure for homicides and missing people, and they are following it. I don't think it's appropriate for a big award for a location service.

Uh, why not? If you're so confident that they haven't been murdered, why? don't you offer an award? What's holding you back? Is it because they were sex workers and that wouldn't look good for your campaign? Hmm? Answer, quickly. In response to being questioned about how the families were close and the women wouldn't have just stopped talking to them, he said, that's what they say. There's been prostitutes moving around and it never came up before. I didn't get a letter or a phone call from anybody before this and some of these girls have been missing for a year. All of a sudden, it becomes a major event. I wonder what's different.

time, my guy? Maybe. It's because these women are genuinely missing. Maybe. He's so close to getting it. So close. I literally cannot believe some of the things that people said out loud in this case. Like, if I didn't know how well researched that book is and like, I mean, I know it's true, but it's like, how did you say that out loud? It just absolutely blows my mind. So that being said, the head of Project Amelia, Lori Shainer, was pretty sure there was a serial killer, and she was also pretty sure they had his name. She took the name Willie Picton to Kim Rosmo in the middle of 1999 and said, we've got this really good suspect. Robert Picton? He's got a wood chipper. What do we do next? He told her that they needed to do surveillance on him, but to not get her hopes up. Such an operation is expensive and takes a lot of manpower.

Surprisingly, her supervisor, a woman named Jeremy Field, agreed and asked the Coquitlam RCMP to help out. So two things. This case is just full of people with like gender neutral names. Like Jeremy Field, Kim Rosma. Yeah. I like that name for a woman. Yeah. And fun fact, she was the first ever canine officer for Vancouver PD.

But and also, I don't mean to be reverse sexist, but isn't it weird that like most of the people. getting shit done in this case and taking the investigation seriously are women? Hmm. Weird. Almost like they viewed the missing women as people. The RCMP followed Willie for two weeks with instructions to stop him if they saw him pick anyone up, but Willie had actually seen the tale and was on his best behavior. But then a problem came up. See, in 1995, three sex workers named Tracy Olegide, Tammy Pipe, and Victoria Yonker had been

murdered and dumped in the woods in what the police were calling the valley murders. They had DNA from that case, and when they compared it to some DNA they'd gotten from Willie and it didn't match, to their tiny, tiny brains. That was it, right? There couldn't possibly be two serial killers operating at the same time. That would be crazy. You can't have two baddies. This is just ridiculous. So their investigation of Willie sputtered and died. frustrated with the lack of progress, the families put together a rally in memorial service

held at a church for their daughters, mothers, sisters, and friends. Carrie Koski's daughter spoke. Stephanie Lane's mom spoke. Angela Jardine's mom sent a letter to be read. It was incredibly moving, and suddenly the tide turned against the mayor and the Vancouver PD. After Kim Rosmo, again, for the umpteenth time, presented findings that suggested that the missing women were probably victims of a serial killer, they finally assigned two homicide detectives to Project Amelia. Even then, the project was severely understaffed, but they did do some incredible work

that would help the eventual investigation immensely. Most of the officers were doing this work part-time because their superiors wouldn't let them dedicate all their time to it. They set about getting fingerprints, DNA samples, and dental records from current sex workers in case they ended up missing. God, that is dark, isn't it? It's so dark. It makes me fucking nauseous. Lori Schener also developed a working profile for them to work off of.

Their suspect was a man who had, quote, enough social skills to instill trust in his victims in order not to have to use violence to get them, that he was organized, and likely set fantasies with his victim that he sets up ultimately to kill them.

Lori had heard that a woman named Lynn Ellingson was talking to friends about witnessing Willie picked and murdering a woman. Lynn denied this to the police who had a feeling she was lying. By that time, Lynn was full on blackmailing Willie. He'd pay her every month or so to keep her quiet. In November of 1999, Wendy Crawford went missing. She had two kids and never missed paying her rent. She had issues with drugs, but her family adored her. She worked hard to keep food on the table, and when she went missing, there was a witness. One of her neighbors was a 14-year-old girl named Jennifer. She had seen Wendy in a truck with an ugly looking man and hadn't seen her again

afterwards. When the police came for a wellness check, Jennifer tried to tell them what she'd seen. The response, you're just a kid. You don't even know what you're talking about. Again, how do you say that out loud? Like, don't you know you sound like a movie villain? I just don't get it. Kids notoriously don't have eyes. Then, on December 27th, Jennifer Furminger disappeared. Jennifer was an artist, loved painting and drawing. Her friends called her Jenny. Her boyfriend saw her working that night, but didn't see which car she got in. He said he wasn't a possessive man and knew that Jenny needed to come and go,

so he didn't start getting worried until she didn't come home by March of 2000 when he finally reported her missing. Katrina Murphy is an honest-to-god bank robber. I think Stevie Cameron in the book called her an outlaw. She had done 19 heists with her husband. Blair Cody, and she'd just gotten done visiting him in prison where he was doing 20 years for 29 bank robberies. As she said goodbye, he worried about whether or not she had a ride. She didn't, she said, but she'd just walk. It was still light out, and after all, she was tough. I can take care of

myself, she said. As she started walking, she realized how cold it actually was, even though it was August. Her luck was good, though, and someone slowed to a stop as she walked along the road. Her first impression of the car was that it was filthy, mud-caped, and hazy with dirt. The interior smelled horrible. She described it as bad meat. The man, yeah, the man inside turned to her, smiling wide, and said, hi. And Katrina thought, Bozo the clown. My God, it's Bozo the clown. The man introduced himself as Willie and told her he was a carpet layer. He offered her some weed and she agreed, but when she handed the joy back to him, he refused. Yeah, I find it really fascinating that Lori identified the gamifying aspect of Willie's emo like he'd offer women drugs, and if they agreed, it was a strike against him.

He'd pay women for sex, and then that's another strike. He really was playing a sick game of cat and mouse in his head, making it impossible for these women. meant to win. Katrina, who is genuinely a bad bitch, felt terrified, and she couldn't shake it. Her fear was justified when Willie sped past her exit. Her hand reached for the door handle, but quickly realized that the passenger side didn't have one. Desperately, she tried to make eye contact with other drivers, hoping they'd remember her if she went missing. Willie started talking. So your husband's in prison, eh? So he wouldn't miss you if you didn't get home tonight.

Katrina told him that he called her every evening, even when she visited him, and even if he didn't, many people would notice she was missing. Willie kept reassuring her that he'd turn around, take her home, but kept driving in the same direction. She fumbled around her purse, looking for a makeshift weapon, but came up empty-handed. She told him, you try anything, I'll fucking kill you. Willie seemed amused by this, laughing, jovially. He pulled off the highway and started driving in an in an accident.

industrial area. Finally, Katrina felt a pencil in her purse. She gripped it hard, waiting for an opportunity. Willie didn't actually know where he was going. The industrial area he pulled off into ended in the cul-de-sac, which forced him to slow down and turn around. Sensing an opportunity, Katrina used all of her strength and stabbed Willie in the neck and snapped off the tip of the pencil. Hell yeah. She threw herself over him and opened the driver's side door, tumbling out of the moving car into the gravel. She sprinted down the road, scared to look back, scared that he was about to catch up to her. But when she finally dared to look back, he was just standing by his car, laughing. Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha. God, it's like a freaking horror movie.

Katrina made it to a nearby gas station where the attendant called the cops, and she realized she was bleeding pretty badly from scraping herself on the gravel from her fall. A Mountie came and took her statement and told her that he'd look into it for her. But later, when she was in prison for her bank robberies, nobody followed up. No one even called. Along with Gina Houston, Willie also recruited Dina Taylor to lure women to his farm for him. Dinah called Willie her sugar daddy

and often crashed at his place. She even knew his bank code and would often take money from him. Both Dina and Gina were kicked out at the Women's Information Safehouse anytime they were seen talking to women there, specifically because they knew they were luring women to a man that was on their bad date

list. One woman Dinah convinced to go visit Willie was Tiffany Drew, a quiet girl who was abused by her mother. Tiffany's roommate, Ashu, was desperately worried for her when she didn't come home. Ashu knew that Tiffany was a creature of habit, so she called up the community constable Dave Dixon and pestered him for weeks. Finally, he told her Tiffany was in rehab and didn't want to talk to Ashu or anybody else. Why would he lie? This is one of those dreaded. he said, she said moments. If you remember, as we discussed last week, Dave Dixon was super genuinely concerned about the missing women.

It doesn't really track that he'd out and out lie to get somebody to stop bugging him. In a later inquiry, he insisted that he didn't even know Tiffany was missing until two years later. Do we believe him? I don't know. Maybe he got Tiffany confused with someone else because I don't know if either party is lying in this case. Yeah, I mean, the police have hardly earned any goodwill here, so. I don't know. I might put the weight on the side of him lying, but it does seem weird because he was one of the ones that, like, seemed to kind of get it. Yeah.

So that's strange. And I guess it's very possible there's more than one Tiffany, you know what I mean? Sure. So, who knows. Tiffany's sister Kelly called the missing persons team who responded, what do you expect? She's a prostitute. How do you people say these things out of out? I just cannot.

It's, oh, God. It's like, hmm, let's pretend I'm a villain in a cheesy lifetime movie. What would a villain in a cheesy lifetime movie say? I'll say that. Later, Tiffany's DNA would be found on the Picton farm. Don Cray also went missing that December. Dawn was one of seven siblings in an indigenous family. Her father died when she was five years old in her tiny little arms.

Afterwards, her mom started drinking and she and her siblings were put into foster homes outside of their community. Dawn was abused in the first foster home she was placed in, but found stability in the second. Her teens were tumultuous, and she fell into drugs and sex work and shoplifting in the downtown east side. People all around the neighborhood loved her, and she always shared whatever she had, no matter how meager. Most of all, Dawn had a very strict schedule. She ate lunch at a local women's center and dinner at wish. She'd do her hair and makeup and meet up with one of her many regular clients. She didn't really like working the street.

Getting in cars with random strangers seemed terrifying to her. Dawn had confided in her sister that she was convinced that someone was trying to kill her. On Christmas, her sister tried reaching out to her to get her to spend the day with her family, but couldn't get in touch. She called around and found out that no one had seen her in a while and that she hadn't picked up her welfare checks since November. The last person to see Dawn alive was Dinah Taylor. Little fun fact about the missing persons unit, by the way, the guy in charge was named John Dragini.

He was obsessed with the police force's pipe band, and also with child sexual abuse material, for which he was arrested in 2006. Real peach of a guy. Anyway, the Vancouver PD decided that Project Amelia wasn't really worth funding anymore. They cut the staff down from nine to six, and everyone knew it was a matter of time before it was disbanded. I mean, the chief felt like there was nothing to be reviewed. anymore. Sex workers were hardly going missing. There was certainly a downward trend. In 97, 13 women of the downtown East Side went missing. In 98, 11 disappeared. In 99, only five disappeared. So, boom,

done. No need to dedicate valuable police resources to these women anymore. We could just all go back to forgetting they ever existed. Luckily, this wasn't the universal opinion of the investigators that were concern for the women of the downtown east side. When he heard about the possible dissolution of Project Amelia, staff sergeant and the RCMP's Unsolved Homicide Unit, Doug Henderson, called up his buddy in the serious crime unit, a guy named Don Adam. He thought there was some credence to the serial killer route

and wanted to know if Don could lend his expertise to help Project Amelia. He put together another task force called Project Even-Handed. If you're keeping a tally, I think we're up to like four or five. now. So many task forces. And took the 27 missing cases that Project Amelia thought were most likely attributed to their serial killer. Unlike the Vancouver PD, Project Even-Handed were certain that they had a serial killer on their hands. While Project Amelia had started trying to collect DNA and fingerprints from women who were currently working in the downtown East Side, they didn't have access to DNA

of the missing women. For that, Project Even-Handed used the Downtown East Side's Cancer Center. which offered pap smears to most of the sex workers in the area and kept the records indefinitely. There's a really interesting part of Stevie Cameron's book where she discusses how women doing sex work were more likely to go get medical care than other vulnerable populations because if they're not healthy, they can't work. Also, they are more likely to be exposed to hepatitis or HIV or other STIs that need to be discovered sooner rather than later. So despite, you know, them being in poor health and being addicted to drugs, they were still. going to appointments. That's part of how a lot of women were declared missing is that they'd miss doctors appointments and their doctors were like they would never do that. Despite the assurances that the danger was over, the women of the downtown east side weren't so sure. Tiffany

Drew had been the only one missing in 2000 so far, but with Christmas fast approaching, their antenna wore up. The women knew something instinctively that the police hadn't really pieced together yet. Their monster liked hunting between Christmas and New Year. Between 1984 and 2015 of the women had gone missing during the holidays. Sharon Nora Jane Abraham went missing in December of 2000. She's one of the women that we don't know much about. A friend of her said that she never did drugs or drank and that she was a great mother to her kids, but other than that, we don't know much.

She wouldn't even be reported missing until years later. Deborah Lynn Jones also went missing in December of 2000. She was 43 years old and a great story. singer. She sounded like Janice Joplin and could play the guitar and piano. According to her family, when she disappeared on or around Christmas Day, she was no longer working as a sex worker. Her dream was to go to Nashville and perform full time. When her family, who immediately noticed that she was gone, tried to report her missing, the police weren't interested. The rate of missing women had dropped. Nothing to see here, folks. And they probably said something like, we can't wait until all the people

limit like it's just like some evil villain shit again like god knows something that strikes me is that apparently to them there's an acceptable level of missing women yeah i know it's like i mean it's like not above average so like what are you bothering us for like i guess i i would hope that you would take every missing like because even if she fucked off to montreal or whatever right i would hope you'd try to find her right because the people who love her and care about her are worried but yeah fuck have, I guess. Well, you always think, and I mean, I've, you know, you don't like unsolved cases. I do. So I've watched that show disappeared and I've always been interested in missing persons cases. And it just, it seems to be a theme that when you, when somebody you love goes missing, you expect, families expect, like the cavalry's

going to show up, you know, and like everybody's going to show up. And so often they just get this slap in the face, like complete rude awakening that that is not what happens. Yeah. We've talked, I mean, we've talked about this before where, like, missing people's families basically have to do a full-time job of harassing the police. They have to, they have to go, like, they have to basically camp in the parking lot of the police station and, like, harassing them. Well, a lot of times they end up investigating themselves. Because I don't know, and I don't know if it's because, you know, there can't be that many missing persons cases where the person is just like fine. because even if that's the case There must be

I have to believe there must be There must be a lot of cases where it's literally just somebody doesn't want to talk to people anymore and they go away for a while That's a W You win, you solved it Good job

Gold Star It's baffling I don't understand it either It's frustrating Get in the comments Police officers, let us know I'm sure they're gonna after this Patricia Rose Johnson's biggest dream was to have a home where her kids could visit her.

Patty loved her kids immensely. Each time she got pregnant, she stopped using drugs and drinking to avoid any side effects, and all she wanted was to have a stable place where they could come stay. She had two rose tattoos with her son and daughter's names underneath. Her uncle told her that he would help her fill out a welfare application for a rent subsidy to get a place. On February 27th, the day she was supposed to meet her uncle, she didn't show. That threw up a red flag, but what really sent her family into a panic was when she missed her son's birthday on March 4th. Her son knew his mom would never, ever, in a million, billion years, missed the chance to see him.

When her family tried to report her missing, they were told by a constable that Patty had left Vancouver to go to Montreal. Her family was dumbfounded. She'd never left the city, let alone the province. It couldn't be true. And, of course, it wasn't. Thankfully, these disappearances lit a fire under Project Even-Handed. While it was generally accepted that the disappearances had slowed down, it was clear that there were still women going missing.

And they just kept coming. Heather Bottomley, a smart, funny, popular woman missing on April 17th. In March, a hardworking, loving mother with wanderlust, Yvonne Bowen disappeared after being seen at a crack den with a smelly balding man. Two weeks later, on April 1st, Heather Chinnick vanished. She was often seen partying at the Picton farm. In June, Andrea Jonesberry went missing. She was tough and opinionated and she had been trafficked by a piece of shit 30-year-old man when she was 16.

Serena Abbott's way had been abused her entire life. She was addicted to opiates and did sex work to pay for her habit. Once she was beaten and left for dead by a John, putting her in a coma, she often relied on wish for access to her meds, including an inhaler for asthma. The last night she was seen, she told someone she was going to a party. That was in July. A year before she disappeared, she wrote a poem titled In Memories of My Sisters, in which she wrote,

You were all part of God's plan. He probably took most of you home, but he left us with a very empty spot. Diane Rock went missing in October. her disappearance, she'd called a friend in a panic, needing to be picked up urgently at a farm in Port Coquitlam. When her friend got there, she was horrified. Her friend had been beaten, nearly to a pulp, and she had rope burns on her wrists. She told her friend that she'd been trapped in a windowless room for two or three days, where several men had sexually assaulted her. Diane refused to go to the hospital because she was so scared. She was last seen on October 19th.

There's a really, really sad story about her 14-year-old daughter going around all over the downtown east side, searching for her mom, talking to people. This poor little girl traveled hours from where she lived with family. Just to see her mama. It's heartbreaking. Oh, my God. Mona Wilson was 26 years old when she went missing in November. She'd been severely abused as a child, but she was still close to her siblings. When she missed Christmas, they knew for sure there was something wrong. It wasn't like her.

Meanwhile, back in September, the Vancouver police were finally feeling some heat. Article after article was published in the Vancouver Sun, criticizing them for the handling of the missing women. Some of them, like Jeremy Fields, came off favorably. She said she felt horrible that she couldn't devote more time to the cases, but she and her team were stretched thin. Meanwhile, Chief Constable Terry Blythe said, it may have been under-resourced, but I don't want anybody to believe that we didn't think it was serious. We've been hit with this criticism so hard that it's tough to defend yourself. But right from the beginning, I think we've acted very responsibly and we've done as much as we could with the resources we had and with the information

we had. Surprisingly, the public didn't take too kindly to him saying that. Meanwhile, Don Adam and his team were avoiding the fallout and trying to get some goddamn work done. In fact, he made an effort to meet with the families, letting them rage at him for his forbearer's mistakes. The families quickly realized that Adam was an ally, and for the first time in years, they had hope. Don Adam made it clear that his door was open to them, and he regularly called them with updates. In October 2001, the RCMP made a formal announcement. The 46 missing women were being treated as homicides. Scott Chubb, member Scott, had 99 problems, and his wife, Tasha was about 50 of them. They were common law married, but had been separated for months.

He owed her about 11 grand in child support, and when he visited his kids, she physically attacked him and he called the cops. By the time rookie RCMP constable Nathan Wells and his partner made it to the house, Chubb was hammered and mad. Tasha really liked cocaine, and Scott had enough of it. He told the police he was sick and tired of the drug problem in Port Coquitlam, and he wanted the police to do something about it. Okay, Scott. That's so funny. Because my wife is on my nerves, so fix the drug problem.

You know what? He is a Karen. Scott Chubb is a little bit of a Karen. Yeah, he's a little bit. Now, from what we know about Scott Chubb, do we think he was just feeling some civic pride in his community and wanted to improve the area? Yeah, not so much. See, Scotty Boy had gotten on the bad side of some not very nice men who he claimed to be Hell's Angels. knowing his affiliation with Dave Pickton and Dave's affiliation with the biker gang,

it's probable that that's the case. Scott got the ever-loven piss beaten out of him, and he got 160 stitches and a TBI for his trouble. So maybe he was a little scared about the Hells Angels, and he thought his best opportunity to solve his problem was to get the police on his side. Because of his connections, Constable Wells thought that Scott might make a good CI for him. Scott agreed and ominously told him You get back in touch with me And I'll make you famous

Which makes me laugh But also if I were a detective I'd be like really? Yeah, tell me more What do you got? Like book deals or what? Yeah Wells reviewed Scott's criminal record

To see what kind of person he was It was mostly petty stuff Breaking and entering Forgery, Failure to appear Possession of Stolen property DUIs, impersonation. Then there was the forcible confinement, assault, possession of an unregistered weapon.

Not exactly an upstanding citizen, but with the right corrections and a little motivation, he could be helpful. On January 25, 2002, Chub called Nathan up and asked to chat. Nathan tapped a more experienced officer, Richard Kim, to assist in the interview. When Scott got in the car,

he immediately started asking for money. He'd lost his job and he had rent and child support to pay for. Wells said they could pay him, but only if the information was good and he'd witnessed it himself. No gossip. And it wasn't like they'd be cutting him a check today. They'd have to verify his claims and it'd have to result in an arrest before he'd see a dime. Or a loony or whatever they call him in Canada. Chubb gave them the name of some Coke dealers and a guy that had a grow operation for marijuana.

Unfortunately for Scott, the cops had already identified. and apprehended the Coke dealers, and weed growers were a dime a dozen out there, so they weren't really worth that much doche, certainly not the $700 bucks Scott needed for rent. Scott's mind was spinning like a hamster wheel. Did he know of anything else? His mind wandered to Willie Picton,

not about the missing women, but about the guns that Willie had in his possession. Willie, in what would be his ultimate signature move, yapped about him. bragging that he had a Mac 10, a 38 Browning, and a 44 Magnum that he kept in his trailer. Willie let Chubb try them out and borrow the 38 along with four bullets for home protection, which again, not surprising considering Scott had pissed off every gang member in like the Tri-County area. Chub brought it back to Willie, stands one bullet.

Chub borrowed it again another time, but instead of bringing it back, he sold it to a gunshot. shop owner for $300, which I don't know what he expected to happen. Apparently, I don't know what, I don't think anything happened. I don't think Willie ever asked for it back. I think he was just like, okay, Scott has my gun. Okay, Scott said, well, what about unregistered firearms? You guys interested in that? The RSCMP certainly was. So on February 1st, Scott called Wells up and Chubb told them that Willie Picton had three unregistered guns in his trailer at the Picton farm, the Mac 10, the 38, and a 44 that they would find by going through Willie's laundry, as well as a bunch of ammunition.

The cops were interested, but in order to get a warrant, they'd need confirmation that the guns were still there. So, according to Scott, which I'm pretty sure is Canadian for, taken with a big old scoop assault, he snuck into Willie's trailer on the night of February 3rd while Willie was out doing god knows what. In the laundry room, he found the Mac 10, but before he could find more, Willie returned. His truck roaring in the dark toward his home. Scott scrambled for a hiding place and found one in the second bedroom across the trailer from Willie's room. He pulled out the bed and crouched behind it. Willie came in, didn't seem to notice anything amiss in the second bedroom,

took a piss, and went to bed. It was hours before Scott felt safe enough to scurry out of his hiding place and out into the dark. The cops don't believe the story and don't think Scott ever actually went back to check on the guns. And Scott didn't spin this particular tale to them when he was confirming the location to them, so they went ahead and applied for a warrant. Well's partner had told him about Willie's record and how he was a person of interest in the missing women's cases, and when Wells contacted the task force to let them know what he was up to and to see if they wanted to take the case, they told him to go right ahead and do the search himself. Quite a lot of Though, they thought that maybe this was it.

Finally, someone had a reason to go to the Picton Place. On February 6th, Wells finally had enough to apply for a warrant to search Willie's trailer. The first application was denied, so it wasn't until 7.40 p.m. that they could finally serve the warrant, which had to be carried out by 9 p.m. that evening. I don't know if this is a thing in U.S. warrants, but Canadian warrants seem like they operate on like... weird video game logic. Like, you have to serve this warrant by 9 p.m. Or else it's bullshit.

I think that's how it works here, too. They have, like a time limit or a window of time that they have to. I think so. I could be wrong. If you get a warrant by 740 and you have to complete it by 9, that's crazy. Yeah, that is a very tight window. I don't know why it would be that tight. I think it's more likely to be like in the next 24 hours or 48 hours.

Yeah, I understand that. Yeah, I understand that because you can't just like wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. And finally, it's not like a get out of free jail card in Uno Reverse or whatever. A team of about nine police from both the RCMP and the Vancouver PD were to help serve the warrant. Don Adams sent some of his project even-handed people to assist. They knew that if they fucked this up, they'd ruin any evidence they found. The initial plan was to start looking for the guns and then if anything else came up, document it as it came. Don't touch anything that might be part of the missing women cases.

or else you endanger the arrest. When they got to the farm, it was after 8.30, so time was ticking. They hesitated a little when they saw that Willie was home and was getting out of his truck to go inside. The police stood next to the front door and used a battering ram to bust the door open. But then, Willie poked his head out of a second door 10 or so feet away and asked, hey, what's happening? And when the police told him that they were, in fact, police, he slammed the door shut again. Okay, first of all, how terrifying would this be?

know this guy probably has at least one illegal weapon in his house. You think you're about to surprise him. And then he surprises you with a second door. Second of all, is his house just doors? Like, is it just a row of doors? Like, what is this place? Remember when Wendy Lynn tried to escape and found another door sealed shut? Like, what was going on? Like the MC Escher house or something. Yes. Yes. Oh, my God. I like, I've seen pictures and I, like, I feel like there's a door in every picture. That's what it is. What the fuck is happening? The house of doors. Anyway, the police ran in and hurled him to the ground, good, cuffed him and told him he was being arrested for possession of restricted firearms. When asked if he understood, he just said, okay. When read his rights again, he said, okay. As he transported Willie to the station, Nathan Wells kept looking at the clock.

They had 30 minutes to find what they were looking for, or they'd have to let Willie go. When he got to the station, he put Willie into the cell and nervously sat next to his radio to listen for updates. Back in the trailer, the investigators were overwhelmed with how much shit there was everywhere. Probably literally and figuratively. Also, the horsehead was still on the wall and it was just as terrifying as ever. They started in the laundry room and found a gun in a case above the washer and dryer. That was a relief. Their warrant was warranted. They could proceed with the search. Upon further inspection, the gun was wrapped in plastic, but appeared to

be the Smith and Wesson 22. When they unwrapped it, they found that a dildo was attached to the barrel. Just let that sink in for a second. Weird and creepy. Later DNA testing would find Mona Wilson's DNA on the sex toy. In Willie's room, they found women's jewelry, a woman's purse, pieces of paper with Dinah Taylor's name, a flare gun modded to fire 12-gauge shells, Fuzzy handcuffs, zip ties, and dildos. They found a box of knives, books, and a birth certificate belonging to Heather Bottomley. In Picton's office, they found some ammunition and a gym bag containing a pair of women's tennis shoes and an inhaler prescribed to Serena Abbott's Way.

Two missing women's names listed on items in Willie's trailer. They'd hit gold. In the machine shop, they found more women's jewelry and clothes. In the barn, they found a trailer. full of live squealing pigs, oh, and two skinned pigs on hooks. Oh, those poor babies. Because they'd already found the item that the warrant had outlined, the police had to wait to get another warrant to search the farm more thoroughly. What followed would be the single largest crime scene investigation in Canada's history. Meanwhile, Willie was released on bail at about

1 p.m. the next day was instructions to not return to his property until they'd completed their investigation, with the exception of feeding his livestock. Willie stayed with his brother and worked for him. Investigators broke down the property into seven separate sites and then created search parameters for each one. They put up an electric fence and posted guards at the entrance to ward off intruders. One investigator, who kept pigs of her own, was asked to determine the well-being of Picton's pigs.

She found them in horrible condition. One sow who had just given birth could barely stand and her litter was dead. Oh, that's so sad. Sick pigs were lying on top of each other. One pig's hoof was so infected that it was rotting off. Oh, that makes me so sad. In the slaughterhouse, she found barrels full of rotting carcasses, pigs' heads lying around, and three freezers stuffed full of meat.

She felt so bad for the pigs in the trailer, who hadn't been given any food or water, that she brought food from her own farm to feed them. The full list of everything investigators found in their search is extensive and horrific and can be found in full in Stevie Cameron's book on the farm. I wish we could talk more in depth about the actual crime scene investigation, but we're already on part, what is it, 12 here, so we'll be brief. Hundreds of police volunteers assisted in the 18-month search. Some would volunteer for months

at a time from across the country and then return home for a bit and come back. They broke the farm up into 220, 20-meter squares, took truck fulls of dirt, and sifted through it all. They set up conveyor belts to move the sifted dirt away from the search site. In all, they found DNA from 33 women on the Picton farm. In a bloodstain found in the trailer, they found the DNA of Mona Wilson, the last woman to vanish. Even after Willie was arrested, Scott Chubb had stories to tell the cops. Willie once told Chubb that Lynn Ellingson was costing him a ton of money and he needed a hitman. Willie gave him some examples of how someone might go about hurting her.

He said you could use a syringe filled with antifreeze and injected into somebody and no one would notice because usually they were junkies and there were track marks that you wouldn't know whether or not she died from that or from heroin or drug overdose. Horrifyingly, that's probably true. He also told investigators that every time Willie would slaughter a pig, oh my God, he'd fondle its genitals. Oh, my God, that is the worst thing I've ever heard my life.

I'm so sorry. Still, after all this, Scott Chub was squirrely when asked if he would testify. Not because he was scared of Willie. He was scared of Dave. The investigators did their best to break through to Willie, and in order to do so, they sent in Dana Lily's. Some of the investigators weren't so sure if a woman could connect with Willie, but Don Adam was sure, and I absolutely. agree. I think this was a brilliant idea to send a woman in. Yep. Want to guess what gender those naysayers are? Anyone? Sorry. I guess we're going full bra-burning feminist today. All right. Settle

down. You're going to summon the ghost of Elliot Roger. I'm sorry. It's just, it's like, there were good dudes too. Kim Rossman. There were good dudes. Hashtag not all men, okay? But the ones that were like really putting the rubber to the road and like got shit done. It doesn't surprise me. I mean, it really doesn't. No. They had Dana go deliver Willie his summons for the gun charges and sent her in with a recorder and a live cell phone at her hip.

When she approached, Willie was anxious. He thought she was part of the media, but when she introduced herself as a police officer, he seemed a little less jumpy, which is strange. He went to her car and sat in the passenger seat, and she gently started a conversation with him. He started telling her that he was having a really hard time with the media poking around,

and he felt, get ready for it, like Princess Diana because of it. You could have given me all day to try and predict the name he was going to give there. I just, like, I had to reread that part of the book about 12 times because I was like, who? You felt like who? Yes, I can see no differences between you, Pigman and Princess Diana. So funny. When she finally gave him the papers, he didn't glance. twice at them, just folded them and kept on trucking about his life. He was just a poor farm boy,

you see? He helped people all the time. This was all just a big misunderstanding. Lillies would later recall, he wasn't fully acknowledging my presence, and at several periods during the conversation, he became quite emotional and had his head down, and I could see tears dripping from his face onto the floor mat. At some points, there were gut-wrenching sobs. I was able to see his chin trembling with the emotion of his tears. Something about Willie is that he has little catchphrases. And so he kept saying, I'm screwed and tattooed.

And that he was innocent. He says this like 20 times. I'm screwed and tattooed. He used every sob story at his disposal, the calf that his family slaughtered when he was a kid. The time Wendy Lynn Eyesteader nearly killed him. When they were kids, his greedy brother always asked for $2 from his mom. But humble Willie only asked for $50.

He helped women. He let Gina Houston borrow his truck and didn't expect anything in return. He lent women hundreds of dollars that expecting a dime back. Would a murderer do that? Willie didn't think so. During his ramblings, Willie noticed the flip phone open at her side and asked, is the tape recorder working okay? Oh, it creeps me out. He took the time to make sure she knew that he knew he was being recorded. In between his little woe is me act, he was still hyper aware that she was there. you know, to investigate him. And he wanted her to know, I know, creepy. Yeah. It's like a, it's almost like how we talk about how charm is a verb. Oh, yeah. This like sob story thing is a total tool for him. And he uses it to obviously manipulate women. Because what's really interesting about Willie is that to men, he really liked giving off like, I'm a tough man. And he dropped like F bombs. He like, he'd be like kind of more rough. And with women, he would do this, like, sympathetic figure of like, oh, I'm just a dumb little farm boy.

It's really, it's really fascinating. And that's why I think, like, Willie is not nearly as dumb as people assume he was. In a later conversation with him, Willie told Lily's that any remains that they found on the farm were probably chickens or pigs or emus or ostriches or mottes or namas. Definitely not women. He told her where she'd find three feet long bones, but they weren't human. He called them leg bones, and when Lily's pressed, he got a little more frantic. Only thing I ever kept there were leg bones. They're two-legged.

I'm going to be nailed to the cross, I tell you. There's one doorway there, one doorway there, one doorway there. If they wish me to, I'd like to go in and show them for possibly one bone is right there. These are two-legged. If they are human, I am nailed to the cross. When she asked them if they would come back human, Willie kept spiraling, saying that if they were human, he'd own up to it, but they weren't. With these conversations and with the bloodstain on the farm being identified as Mona Wilson's

and with Heather Bottomle's birth certificate being found, it was time to put the habeas gravis on Willie Picton for two counts of murder. He was brought to the RCMP jail where he was encouraged to take a shower, but refused, and put in a cell with another man. Willie was big mad and kept demanding his lawyer, but eventually his cellie struck up a conversation with him. At first, Willie was hesitant to tell him anything. He told the guy that he was in for a driving offense, but quickly copped to being charged with murder. Before long, Willie seemed to be enjoying the attention.

When Willie complained about the media, his cellmate said, What am I? Sharing with some fucking celebrity here or what? Tickled, and probably preening. Willie started telling his wo-as-mee farm boy stories that he told his cellmate that the thing with Heather was just a misunderstanding. This bitch tried to move in with him. She brought all her stuff with her. He didn't know what was going on.

In another conversation, Willie bragged about how Port Coquitlam was now being called pork coquitlam now. Not port, pork. I heard a mad cow disease, but now you got fucking pigs eating people. The whole fucking world knows me, all the way to Hong Kong, to everywhere. On the shower issue, Willie said that he was brought up to take baths.

And if he couldn't have a bath, he didn't mind smelling like shit. Jesus. Baths for Willie Picton. Like, just imagine this man just marinating in a lukewarm tub full of his own filth. It's almost worse than nothing. Oh. Willie Picton stew is what it was. And you know how, do you remember how like in like pandemic time?

back when COVID existed, that was a joke. COVID is still real. Wear a fucking mask. That girl was selling Gamer Girl bathwater. Yes, I do remember. I'm not going to finish the sentence. I'm not going to finish the thought, but you all know where I'm going. Sorry.

If anybody wants to give me a large amount of money for some of my bathwater, just absolutely. Don't say that. You were going to get met. Remember that time that we offered toenail clippings and then Shelby from Skis? Scary to sleep was like, toenail clip, thanks, girl. Yeah. In his interrogation, Willie was a tough cookie to crack. He constantly said things like, out to lunch and presented with evidence of his crimes.

And I'm just a poor little farm boy, but still insisted that he hadn't done anything wrong. The out to lunch thing is just, what do you mean? What does that mean? I had no idea. Unfortunately, it was being run by Bill 40, who despite being given a game plan by Robert mother fucking wrestler insisted that the legendary profile didn't know shit and thought profiling was

fake science. Oh my goodness. Bob had information wrong about the facts of the case so they taffed him out. They let Dana Lilies take a crack at him and she seemed to melt his defenses a little bit and later Don Adam presented all of the evidence they'd gathered already. He laid out the facts of the case. In just two

weeks since the investigation started they found evidence of 12 missing women at the Picton Farm. They found four of Serena Abbott's Ways and Hay They found her blood on her gym bag. They had Scott Chubb's testimony. They had Andy Bellwood's testimony. They had Dinah Taylor's testimony and Lynn Ellingson's testimony.

He told Willie, we're not offering you any deals because we don't have to. He was trying to impress upon Willie that he was well and truly cooked. Finally, Willie seemed to break. He started trying to implicate Scott Chubb, but Adam didn't believe him. Willie said he planned to do one more murder, but he got too slothed. He seemed to understand what Adam needed, and he'd take him right up to the precipice and then retreat. It's honestly chilling. For example, when talking about Mona's murder, Adam asked how he did it.

Willie said, Sloppiness. And when asked why he didn't clean up, Willie said, I was too busy at job sites. When pressed more, he looked at Adam with something approximating affection and said, you've done your homework. When told that the families wanted answers, Willie shrugged, Not my problem. Shit happens. Yeah. After the interrogation, Willie returned to his cell with his empathetic roomie. The cellmate told him he was due in court in the morning for three attempted murder charges.

At this, Willie smiled. He held up his hand, five fingers. When the cellmate asked five murders? Willie said, no. And held up one hand with the five and the other with his hands in a circle. 50? You're shitting me. The cellie then told Willie how he attacked his victims that there was one successful murder that they hadn't discovered, dumped in the ocean.

Willie said, I did better than that. A rendering plant. The cellmate grinned. That's got to be pretty fucking good. Can't be much fucking left. Willie lamented, only I was kind of sloppy at the end, too, getting too sloppy. They got me. Oh, fuck, getting too sloppy. I was going to do one more, make it an even 50. That's why I was sloppy. I wanted one more. Make the big 5-0. His cellmate seemed jarred by this, but Willie plowed on. You know, they got 48 on the list. I think I'm nailed to the cross. Grumbling as he got ready for bed, he said, really fucking pisses me off. I was just going to do one more, bigger than the one in the States. This was in

reference to the Green River Killer Gary Ridgeway, responsible for 48 murders. Then he said, Let him dig. Have fun. Play in the dirt. Teeth. We're going to find fingernails, bones. Yes. Oh yes. Mr. Sloppy. Sloppy at the end. Just at near the end. Just sloppy. But I sure racked their brains, I'll tell you. Now they didn't know what to say. Now, Willie's cellmate had to leave around midnight to go talk to his lawyer. Which is what he told Willie. In reality, his cellmate was an undercover officer who presumably needed about six showers to wash the Picton's sent off him. The police who had been listening to that whole conversation were absolutely baffled. 49 women. They knew about 48, but 49. What was that? They would never identify the 49th victim. Personally, I think Willie was lying to make himself bigger than Ridgeway, but with how badly the cops handled this case, who knows? Based on DNA evidence, Crown prosecutors were able to charge Robert William Pickton for the murders of Marnie Fry, Serena Abbott's Way, Georgina Pappin,

Angela Jonesbury, Brenda Wolfe, and Mona Wilson. A jury found him not guilty of six counts of first-degree murder, but guilty on six counts of second-degree murder. After hearing 18 victim impact statements, Willie was sentenced to life in prison with no possibility of parole for 25 years, the maximum sentence allowed. As he handed down the sentence, the judge said, I can say can adequately express the revulsion the community feels at the killings. Willie Picton was housed at the Port Cardier Institution in Quebec, where he lived

until May 19, 24, when another prisoner, named Martin's Spike Charest, speared Willie in the head with a broken broomstick. He was flown to a hospital where he died of his injuries on May 31st. Now, y'all know how we feel about prison justice on this show, but also we hope it hurt.

This episode is dedicated to the lost women of the downtown east side, whose cries for help were ignored by the people that swore to protect them, who all deserved better, who were loved and cherished by everyone that met them. Don Cray's brother told a journalist, we all have a right to expect that our police forces will do the job they're there to do, and we don't accept that they'll do any less. The lifestyle that my sister pursued should never have figured into whether police did a serious job. he's right so that was a wild one right campers you know we'll have another one for you next week but for now lock your doors light your lights and

stay safe until we get together again around the true crime campfire and as always we want to send a grateful shout out to a few of our lovely patrons thank you so much to Amy Bat Corpse awesome Naomi Jennifer Jamsey T Monster and Shannon

Crew A awesome names in this one a bunch of just read names. We appreciate y'all to the moon and back. And if you're not yet a patron, you're missing out. Patrons of our show get every episode ad-free, at least a day early, sometimes even two, plus tons of extra content, like patrons-only episodes and hilarious post-show discussions. We just posted a Patreon exclusive episode. It's about a book heist perpetrated by a bunch of stoner frat guys. I will say, it is a really good palate cleanser after this one. absolutely I need yeah I I think the last four weeks or more than that six weeks I have

well and truly lost my mind I had a couple picked I think I need actually oh I have me too oh yeah just chilling so yeah book heist Patreon extra episode we just posted check it out and once you hit the $5 and up categories you get even more cool stuff a free sticker at $5 a rat enamel pin or fridge magnet while supplies last at 10 virtual events with Katie and me, and we're always looking for new stuff to do for you. So if you can, come join us at patreon.com slash true crime campfire. For great TCC merch, visit the true crime campfire store at spreadshirt.com. And check out our website at truecrimecampfirepod.com. Thank you.