True Crime Campfire - Scare You Round the Campfire, Vol. 2: A Halloween Special Event with Shelby Scott

Episode Date: October 22, 2021

For our third annual Halloween special, we have the gorgeous and talented Shelby Scott, velvet-voiced host of Scare You to Sleep, a podcast that, while beautifully produced and hugely entertaining, might just make you wet yourself a little bit. Just a little bit, no big deal. It’s worth it. Shelby’s show is the gold standard in horror podcasts, but she’s also a true crime buff. So since it’s Halloween, and we have the Princess of Darkness gracing us with her presence today, we decided to pick two extra-terrifying cases to do together. We’re not gonna lie to you, campers. These are dark. First is one of the most horrifying cases we've ever heard of--a ritualistic, random double murder in one of the most tranquil neighborhoods in Hollywood. Next is the still-unsolved abduction and murder of Dorothy Jane Scott. Dorothy disappeared from a parking lot after weeks of creepy phone calls from a stalker who threatened to "cut her into bits." You also get a bonus at the end of this episode: A peek at our "TCC Unplugged" post-show chat, normally for Patreon subscribers only. It's unedited, unscripted--just Katie and Whitney recapping the episodes.Sources:Reelz' "Demons in the City of Angels," Episode "The Studio Steps"https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/152966332/morley-hal-engelsonhttps://www.dailybreeze.com/2008/04/05/ex-marine-sentenced-to-life-for-slayings/https://www.hermistonherald.com/news/suspect-in-grisly-murders-had-troubled-history/article_f57e82d9-2487-5616-b602-e73a79d616f5.htmlhttps://www.abc.net.au/news/2008-04-05/former-marine-jailed-for-beheading-screenwriter/2393828https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Leeshttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Dorothy_Jane_Scotthttps://www.crimetraveller.org/2020/10/the-tragic-death-of-dorothy-jane-scott/https://www.talkmurderwithme.com/blog/2020/2/22/dorothy-jane-scotthttps://www.newspapers.com/clip/10010932/dorothy-jane-scott/https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_John_BardoShelby Scott's shows:Scare You to Sleep: https://open.spotify.com/show/2sNFsS8B0qvIg1jK0Vo7Ns?si=d31eb69f48f14d97&fbclid=IwAR0bnwXFmuZdAbWgavvZpQfa246OFQITjVu_mnLU7T0mIp4P0tZyKso4iWM&nd=1Mediums: https://open.spotify.com/show/3uxUNb7B8L8IMyywbkmUdL?si=ac1a1bb1e9f340f8&fbclid=IwAR1vos1y_QA_FEIOtId_al-s9owKRiRSmxsOykPWx-aXo-2vHk4zV-OIs6M&nd=1Follow us, campers!Patreon (join to get all episodes ad-free, at least a day early, an extra episode a month, and a free sticker!): https://patreon.com/TrueCrimeCampfireFacebook: True Crime CampfireInstagram: https://gramha.net/profile/truecrimecampfire/19093397079Twitter: @TCCampfire https://twitter.com/TCCampfireEmail: [e-mail]: https://shop.spreadshirt.com/true-crime-campfire/Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/true-crime-campfire--4251960/support.

Hello campers. Grab your marshmallows and gather around the true crime campfire. We're your camp counselors. I'm Katie. And I'm Whitney. And we're here to tell you a true story that is way stranger than fiction. We're roasting murderers and marshmallows around the true crime campfire. Hey, guess what? Boo! Gotcha. Welcome to our third annual true crime crime. Campfire Halloween special. We're especially excited today, campers, because we have a very special guest joining us. The gorgeous and talented Shelby Scott, velvet-voiced host of Scare You to Sleep, a podcast that, while beautifully produced and hugely entertaining, might just make you wet yourself a little bit. Just a little bit. No big deal. It's worth it. Shelby's show is the gold standard and horror podcast, but she's also a true crime buff. So since it's Halloween and we have the Princess of Darkness gracing us with her presence today, we decided to pick two extra terrifying

cases to do together. We're not going to lie to you, campers, these are dark. So if you dare, grab your big bowl of Halloween candy, dim your lights, and settle in, because this is scare you around the campfire too, a Halloween special event. So, campers, today we are beyond honored to have horror goddess, podcast queen, and Earth Angel, Shelby Scott, with us. Shelby, say hi, darling. Hi, everyone. Happy Halloween. Oh, happy Halloween. We're very excited to have you. And are you excited about Halloween? Do you get worked up about Halloween? I bet you do. Oh, I do. It's, you know, it's my bread and butter, so I get so excited every year. I do lots of extra stuff over here on my, my, my, my, my, my side of the of the horror sphere and yeah i'm real excited and thank you so much for having me back i'm so excited to be back who else would we possibly have for our Halloween guests

besides besides Shelby yeah we get pretty into Halloween over here we have like a few little decorations and and whatnot and i have to tell a story because it's hilarious and also probably says a little bit too much about what kind of a person i am but a couple of years ago i thought i would be, you know, really in the spirit. And I thought I'd really, like, you know, delight the neighborhood children. And so I answered the door with the bowl of candy with a Jason mask on. And it went really well for the most part. But then at one point I opened the door and it was like this group of like little kids, like little girls in princess outfits and a couple little boys. And they just all like burst into tears and ran. Oh no. Oh, no. Which was really both.

hilarious and embarrassing, and I felt really bad. This is why your neighbors think you're like the local witch. Well, everybody in our neighborhood already thinks we're lunatics, you know? We've literally had children come to our door before and ring the doorbell and say,

is this where the cat lady lives? I mean, I'm fighting an uphill battle anyway. Look, kid, you're not like wrong, but Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Yeah, and one time my husband was sitting there and he was like, and the cat gent, the cat man is here too.

There's a cat man too, you know. I feel like I, like I wish I could get excited about Halloween, but like one, I live in an apartment complex that like no one does anything. There's no like decorating, there's no trick or treating. But this year, yeah, my apartment is doing a pet costume Halloween contest. And so, like, I think my cat may try to kill me if I dress him up, but at certain angles, my dog fin, he's a big white dog, he looks like a polar bear. So my plan is to get him a red scarf and a bottle of Coke and, like, recreate. Oh, my God. So, like, I'll let you know how it pans out.

I don't have high hopes because I think people might get competitive. But, like, I think I can make him a Coca-Cola polar bear. It's going to be unique. No one will expect that at this time of year. Like the Coke polar bear. Like, yeah. I love it. I love this idea.

All right. So we're going to just jump right in, y'all, because we have a lot to cover. And we want to slap a serious content warning on this first case because it is dark. And it's got a lot more gory details than we usually get on our show. It's just a very, very violent double murder. So just be warned. If you're sensitive, you might want to skip this first. one. So for this one, we're in one of Hollywood, California's loveliest, most peaceful

neighborhoods. June 13th, 2004, about 11 o'clock in the morning. A Southwest Airlines ticket agent was on the phone with a customer named Dr. Morley Ingelson. The dock was setting up a flight reservation. They just wrapped up the transaction. We're in the process of signing off, and everything seemed totally fine. But then, suddenly, the agent heard Dr. Engelson say, oh my god I don't know what are you doing help me help and there was some commotion in the background like some shuffling type noises and then the line just went dead and just imagine being the ticket agent in that moment just uh makes the hairs on the back of my neck stand up so she kind of hesitated for a second not really sure what to do what she just heard and she told herself you know

it's probably fine he's probably just dropping the phone or something but her inner alarms were kind of clanging so she decided well i'll call him back And the phone rang once and rang twice, and then somebody picked up. And they didn't say anything, but she could hear them just kind of softly breathing on the other end. And the agent said, hello, there was a moment of silence, and then a calm-sounding male voice said, Everything's fine now, and the line went dead again. So something about that voice just made every hair on that agent's neck. stand-up, and this time she didn't hesitate. She called her supervisor over and they looked up

Dr. Engelson's address in their computer system and together they called the Hollywood Police, who sent a couple of officers over to check things out. When they got to Dr. Engelson's house, a window was open and the officers could see that the screen had been broken out. And there were swipes of what looked like blood on the sill, and then they noticed a bloody knife lying in the dirt below the window. So obviously something is seriously awry. And As they peered inside, they could see a man's feet sticking out from behind a doorway. They weren't moving. So the officers made entry into the house and walked straight into a nightmare.

69-year-old Dr. Morley Ingelson lay on his back in the kitchen in a huge puddle of blood. A fire poker protruded from his neck and his chest. His chest was gaping wide open. It was the grisliest, most violent scene any of the officers had ever been. ever seen. Who could have done this? Is he still in the house? That's the pressing matter right there. So with their hearts pounding, the officers moved through the house with their guns drawn, clearing every room so they could start their investigation safely. And one of the officers pushed open a bedroom door. The lights were off inside, but in the dimness, he could see what

looked like a red soccer ball plopped in the middle of the bed. He's thinking, that's a weird place for a ball, and then he flipped the light switch on, and it wasn't a soccer ball. In the middle of this beautifully made snowy white bed sat a man's bloody, decapitated head. Oh, my God. One of the eyes was gone, yeah, and a leather belt had been threaded in through the mouth and out through the neck. Just how do you even begin to process a sight like that? And who the hell was the second victim?

When detectives and CSIs arrived, they realized Dr. Engelson's murder was even more gruesome than they'd initially realized. When the field agents from the M.E.'s office examined the gaping wound in his chest, they realized that several of his internal organs were missing, including his heart. And his genitals had been mutilated, almost completely severed.

What kind of killer does this? Who takes a victim's heart? Some of the detective's minds turned to the Manson killings of 1969. There was something ritualistic about this crime scene, almost cult-like. As one of the officers reached out to Dr. Engelson's wife, Valerie, to give her this horrendous news about her husband's murder, the investigators began methodically cataloging the scene, prepping for what they knew was going to be a major investigation. A couple of hours later, as the forensic texts and detectives were combing through every inch of Dr. Engelson's beautiful home, 80-year-old Helen Colton was getting a little worried.

She was supposed to go to an event with her boyfriend and across-the-street neighbor 91-year-old Bobby Lee's. He'd planned on walking across to her place to pick her up, but he hadn't showed, and he hadn't called, not like Bobby at all. So she grabbed her cane and headed across to his house to check on him, thinking maybe he'd just forgotten about their date. She found his front door unlocked, as it usually was.

this was one of the nicest neighborhoods in Hollywood, after all. She stuck her head and called out for him. Bobby, it's Helen. No response. The house seemed eerily quiet and still. So Helen went in, closing the door behind her, and went room to room calling for him. In the kitchen, she noticed a mess on the counter, some food left out, very out of character for Bobby, who liked to keep things neat. She headed up the stairs to his bedroom, and the first thing she noticed as she walked in was a startling

swipe of red on his computer keyboard, and more on the monitor. Then she saw the bed. Several dresser drawers had been pulled out and dumped onto the mattress, which seemed to be missing its duvet. And then, her heart and her throat, she saw Bobby's feet poking out from the other side of the bed. She ran over to find him lying flat on his back on the floor, most of his body covered with the bloodstained duvet.

She couldn't see his face, but there was an unearthly. stillness about his body, and it sent her into a near panic. She dialed 911. Please, I need an ambulance. My friend is all bloody, and he's not moving. The dispatcher tried to calm her down a little, then said, ma'am, can you check and see if he's breathing? She wanted to try and help Helen through CPR if there was any chance Bobby could be saved. So Helen bent down, took the edge of the duvet, and pulled it aside, and screamed. There was no head. Bobby's head was just gone.

The dispatcher could hear her screaming and screaming, and she thought it would probably be a good idea to send everybody she could possibly round up. And when police arrived, they knew immediately that at least one of the mysteries they'd encountered earlier that day was now solved. They'd found the owner of the severed head on the bed at Dr. Inglson's house.

God, that poor woman. Oh, my Lord. I can't even imagine. Oh. Dr. Engelson's house, by the way, campers, was located directly behind Bobby Lee's. And when the police went out to the backyard, they found a trail of blood drops

leading right to that window where the killer had gained entry to the doctor's place, dropping his knife in the process. Obviously, the killer had visited Bobby Lee's first, then moved on to Dr. Angleson. Both murders were stunningly violent. Bobby Lee's had apparently been attacked in his bedroom

as he was getting dressed for his date with Helen. The killer had stabbed him 41 times, cut open his chest, and torn out his heart. Worse than that, he'd cut off Lee's genitals before finally decapitating him. Then he'd ransacked the house, tossing drawers around, raiding the fridge for his sandwich,

and before heading out the back door and over the fence to Dr. Engelson's house, he had taken Bobby Lee's belt off him, threaded it through the mouth and out the neck of his severed head, and carried it with him, like some kind of ghoulish handbag, a trophy. For the people who knew and loved these two men, it was an unbelievable loss. A nightmare come true in broad, sunny daylight.

Bobby Lees had one hell of a life story. One, his wide circle of friends and neighbors, never got tired of hearing about. He'd had a spectacular career as a screenwriter, first in movies, then for some of the biggest TV shows in American history. My personal favorite, The Twilight Zone, Alfred Hitchcock Presents, Gilligan's Island, and lots more. I binge watched every episode of Alfred Hitchcock Presents that I could find on YouTube, like recently. That show is a classic. It's so great.

It's so good. So good. I know you hear this a lot about murder victims, but it's absolutely true in this case. Everybody adored Bobby Lees. He was one in a billion. hilarious, smart, kind, and generous, and a person of real integrity, a genuinely moral person to his core. We can see the best example of that when we look at his career.

He started as a rock star screenwriter, writing mostly comedies, including a lot of the old Abbott and Costello movies. By 1939, he'd been nominated for three Oscars. He was all set to take the movies by storm. But as we've said before on True Crime Campfire, we can't have nice things. And in the early 50s, fascist buzzkill Senator Joseph McCarthy and his House Committee on Un-American Activities decided to stick their big bazoos into everybody's business and try and roused out the commies.

They went hard after Hollywood, hollying actors and screenwriters and musicians to question them. Are you now, or have you ever been a member of the Communist Party? Communism appealed to a lot of creative folks at the time because their politics tended to be a lot more left-leaning than either of the two main parties. And McCarthy, in his little band of paranoia demons, felt like this was a major threat to the American way. Like, I can't, can you all even imagine a time when the Hollywood elite or, I don't know, the proprietors of an Italian-type family restaurant were accused of being in a shady group of conspirators? Parish the thought.

I can never see that happening now. getting hauled in by the committee was a sure way to put a stop to your career anybody who admitted to associating with the communist party would be blacklisted shut out yeah so fuck all that noise about freedom of speech and religion right yeah put a stop to that freedom of thought is gray as long as you're thinking the way we want you to right exactly who one of bobby lee's colleagues bless his heart decided to rat on him for having at one point been a member of the communist party sniveling little shit. I forget his name. He's Sterling somebody who's in Dr. Strangelove. I'd like to, you know,

just go back in time and just kind of biff him on the nose. All Bobby Lee's had to do to get his own ass off the chopping block was to dime out somebody else. This is how it work. You named names. And it's what a lot of people did. But Bobby refused to do it. And he got blacklisted. And there went the glittering career as a Hollywood screenwriter. But that was just the way Bobby Lee's rolled, which I think is incredible. I mean, he had one of the most desirable career paths you could possibly have. He was doing spectacularly. I'd even nominated for three Oscars.

And he's like, nope, that's okay. I'll give all that up because I'm not going to dime out my friends. That's a ride or die right there. His feeling about it was this is a witch hunt and it's wrong and I'm not going to rat out my friends. So good for him. Fortunately for Bobby, he was able to salvage his career a couple of years later, though, by sending out TV scripts under a pseudonym, J.E.

Selby. He ended up being as hugely successful a TV writer as he was a screenwriter, and he got a kick out of sliding under the radar of the assholes who'd blacklisted him, too. Again, good for him. By age 91, he was known as one of the biggest script writers in TV history, and although he was getting on up there in years, he was still active and social and hilarious and very much beloved. He had a girlfriend, a wide circle of friends, still competed sometimes in writing competitions and stuff like that. adored his family. He had a good life. And now this. And Dr. Engelson, 69 years old, a beloved doctor, husband, father, grandfather. He and his wife Valerie adored each other. He doted on his kids

and his baby boy, his Shih Tzu Doggo Stanley, which makes me like him right there. People called him The Buzz. So he had a great nickname, you know? He had a great sense of humor. He's a nice guy. And he was a healer. He devoted himself to his patients for 35 years. So what a way to end a life like that. So who would want to hurt either one of these guys? Investigators quickly ruled out robbery as the motive. I mean, for one thing, there were just too many valuables left undisturbed,

and also, burglars don't tend to cut people's hearts out. You just don't see that very often. So that's a no. Was it a hit? Well, knowing a little bit about Bobby Lee's past, the idea of this having something to do with all that McCarthy stuff did cross the detective's minds, but it just didn't really make any sense. It was too long ago, and like, why would somebody still be holding a grudge about that? So at first glance, it didn't seem like either

one of these victims was a likely target for a hit. Everything about this felt more random and less organized. And it was possible that the killer had been at least partially motivated by dark sexual fantasies. The genital mutilation suggested that in big neon letters. Rage and perversion. A bad, bad combination. Basically, everything about this crime pointed to the likelihood of a stranger murder, which is the hardest kind to solve. And they needed to solve it, fast. Word was already spreading around this normally peaceful neighborhood,

and people were freaked the fuck out. Remembering back to the days of the Nightstalker, the Golden State Killer, the Zodiac, all those monsters who'd terrorized California over the decades, and only one of which at the time had been identified. identified. So that was a nerve-wracking thought. But the detectives did have one thing going for them. They'd found what they suspected would be usable prints at both crime scenes. At the Inglesons, a fingerprint on a knife the killer had dropped as he fled.

At Bobby Lee's place, a nice, clear palm print in blood. The CSIs got them processed as fast as they could and sent them off for analysis. And early the next morning, a match came back from the fingerprint database. The prints were those of 27-year-old Kevin Lee Graff. Just over a month earlier, he'd served a few weeks in jail for exposing himself to a woman on the streets in Las Vegas, a misdemeanor he'd pled guilty to. There was a mugshot, a 5'7 white guy with a mop of curly dark hair and haunting-looking eyes. This most likely was the butcher who'd taken.

the lives of two innocent men just the day before. And the scary thing was, he could be anywhere now. There was no permanent address on file for Kevin Graff. He'd apparently been living on the streets for much of the past year. God only knew where he might surface next and who might be his next victim. People who can do the kinds of things grafted, they don't tend to stop unless they die or get arrested. So the Hollywood PD decided it was time to hold a press conference, get the public involved, both to warn them and to enlist their help in finding the sky. It worked with the night stalker case back in 85, and it might work now. Yeah, in the night stalker case, that is serial killer and halitosis sufferer Richard Ramirez, the police

circulated, he had horrible breath. It's like in all the sources. like really bad tea. So in his case, the police circulated his mugshot after matching his prints with some at the murder scene. So just like this. And he basically got corralled by an angry mob. And if you don't know this story, you should look it up. It's really astonishing. They kicked the holy finger-licking crap out of him and held him down while they called the cops to come get him, which was very cathartic for the people of Cali, I think, to get to bring him down themselves after he had terrorized them all that time. Oh, definitely. Good stuff. Very good stuff. Yeah, I love a happy ending, especially for that fart breathed freak.

Disorganized killers like Graf and Ramirez and like, I don't know, Richard Chase, the Sacramento vampire are probably, oh my God, big trigger warning if you look up Richard Chase, by the way, it is probably one of the most upsetting things. Big, big. Yeah, I've ever heard. And I think like disorganized killers are probably the most terrifying types. Like, they have no real pattern. no real motive, no connection between the victims. They're just pure chaos. And I'll never understand the kitties on Tumblr that gave Richie R flower crowns and photo edits. He looked exactly like he smelled.

For real, though. I will never understand it. Never. All of his groupies he had at the trials, never understand it. I told Whitney before that it's the cheekbones. I think there's a certain type of person. It's the cheekbones. It's, yeah.

He didn't smile with his teeth, so you didn't really, like, see his teeth. Yeah. You know? But, like, what a dork. He's always holding up his stupid little, you know, pentagram on his hands. It's scary. Yeah. What a dork.

Anyway. Across town, a security guard at the Paramount Studios lot was getting a bit concerned about a man who was pacing back and forth in front of the entrance. He tried to follow a woman in a couple minutes earlier, making her really uncomfortable. And now he was at the gate, demanding to be let in. He needed to see a specific actress, he said. It was obvious he wasn't an employee, and he seemed like he might be high on some kind of speed. He was scruffy, unkempt, with what looked like it might be dried blood under his fingernails and there was something worrisome in his eyes something blank and cold when the guard sent him away from the gate he stuck around walking back and forth in front of the property mumbling to himself ugh the guard could make out the occasional word sexual stuff obscenities this was not great so he called up to security's main headquarters inside one of the buildings,

Craig Phillips, the watch commander at Paramount, had a bank of TV monitors up there where he could keep an eye on the property. Might want to keep an eye on this dude, the guard told him. Checking his wall of screens, Phillips quickly got his eyes on the guy that his guard was talking about. Hmm. Yeah.

Looks like he might be up to something. He thought, pacing around, occasionally shooting the bird back at the guard gate. As he was keeping an eye on the guy, something caught Phillips' attention. He had a TV on in the background, tune in to the morning news, and the regular news had just been interrupted

by a press conference with the Hollywood PD. They were talking about a pair of horrendous murders. One poor guy had his head cut off, and suddenly a picture flashed onto the screen of the suspect, the man whose fingerprints they'd found in blood at one of the crime scenes. His name was Kevin Graff, and he looked real, real familiar.

The watch commander looked at the picture on the screen, and then he looked over at the monitor where the creepy guy was still pacing around. Back at the picture, then again at the guy on the street. Yep, it was him. This was the guy they were looking for, no question about it. He reached for his phone. It didn't take long for LAPD to arrive. When they approached the guy, they could see he had a can of mace in one hand, and, interestingly enough, a raggedy-looking Bible and the other.

But he didn't try to use the spray. One of the officers said, Are you Kevin Graff? Kevin said, yes. And they put the gravis on him without incident. And as they were putting on the cuffs, they noticed the dried blood on his hands. Dude hadn't even bothered to wash off his victim's blood.

Fucking creepy. The press conference was still going on when the arrest went down. The chief of police was able to reassure everybody, right then and there. How often do you see that? Back at headquarters, Kevin Graff pled not guilty to two counts of first-degree murder. He didn't remember the past 24 hours, he said, but he did remember taking meth and ecstasy together two nights ago. This would have been the night before the murders. And that's really all he wanted to say for the moment. Everybody in L.A. was enormously relieved, and enormously curious, too. Who was this Kevin Graff,

and why did he do what he did? Well, according to his family, Graf had a normal childhood in Oregon. He was a hard worker in school, if not the greatest student. He had friends, he played on the football team. He'd lived with his dad ever since his parents' divorce years earlier, and he seemed happy. Former neighbors described him later as a great kid, friendly and fun to be around. After high school, he decided he wanted to get out of Oregon for a while, get a change of pace. So he joined the Marine Corps, got stationed at Camp Pendleton in San Diego.

and for five years he did well there, seemed to like it. For extra cash, he also worked nights as a go-go dancer at a series of gay clubs. He was good at it. Regarious, handsome, built, six-pack abs and a military haircut. Customers ate it up, even though by all accounts he was straight and didn't have any sexual interest in any of the guys he met at work. According to a friend of his at the time, a journalist who was completely gobsmacked years later to hear about the murders, he seemed like a super nice guy.

In 2002, he hurt his ankle and had to take a medical leave of absence from the Marine Corps. He moved in with his brother Jacob in Orange County, and from there, it seems like his life pretty much started coming apart at the seams. He started having wild mood swings. He'd be manic for days at a time, then so depressed he could hardly speak. His brother described it as a nervous breakdown. At one point, in 2003, he called 911 from his brother's house and said somebody had been threatening his girlfriend. He was belligerent with the responding officers, antsy, saying stuff that didn't make sense.

They took him to a hospital for a psych evaluation, but he was released after 72 hours. For a while, his family tried again and again to get him some help. He'd be admitted somewhere, evaluated, and released, that Treatom and Streedom approach we see so often in our mental health care system. Sometimes he'd drop off the map for a while and his family would have no idea where he was. At one point, they even filed a missing person's report on him. And at some point, in the midst of all of this, Kevin developed a dependency on meth, which is probably literally the last thing on planet Earth that the guy needed. His family were worried sick about him, kept trying to get him admitted to an inpatient program

so he could get some real help, but they'd always be told the same thing. Unless he posed a danger to himself or others, they couldn't hold him. And nothing he'd done so far really met those criteria. In May of 2004, he exposed himself to a woman in Vegas and spent a few. few weeks in jail, and that brings us up to the murders on June 13th. In the end, Kevin took a plea deal to avoid the death penalty. He pled guilty to two counts of first-degree murder and was sentenced to life without parole. At his sentencing, he stood up to speak. He said, quote, I don't really remember. I don't understand. I don't say I have a

mental illness, but apparently I am mentally ill. Because who has a in their right mind could do something like this. This person gave me drugs and I didn't know what they were. And then this happened. It's just senseless acts for no reason. Absolutely makes no sense. At this, he turned around to look at the gallery, packed with the families and friends of Dr. Engelson and Bobby Lee's. I'm not a person who is violent, he said. He did yoga. He'd studied world religions. He always tried to focus on the positive in life and, quote, to be the best person I can be. Yeah, I'm sure it was a great comfort to your victim's loved ones to hear about your yoga practice, Kevin. Good call bringing that up, man. You know, I thought it was weird that he

even brought that up because the only thing that gets me through my son salutations is unbridled rage. Angry yoga. Angry yoga. So Kevin Graff has expressed remorse for the murders he committed on the morning of June 13th, 2004. But he swears he doesn't remember committing them. Do we believe him? I don't know. Meth is a hell of a drug for sure. And I'm sure mixing it with ecstasy does some interesting things to your brain chemistry.

But I have a hard time imagining you could do everything Graf did. commit the murders make yourself a sandwich jerry rig that ghoulish handle for the severed head break into somebody's house through a window answer the phone and talk in a totally calm normal sounding voice to a southwest airline's employee etc if you were completely dissociating yeah i agree and i think also that it's always worth noting that people with mental health disorders are more likely to be victims than perpetrators they're actually less violence statistically than people without mental health problems. I think that that's really important because there's such a stigma already that, you know, people with, for example, bipolar disorder, which he had apparently been diagnosed with are scary or dangerous. It's just not borne out at all by by reality. So it could have been more the drugs than anything. People on meth can do some scary stuff. Or maybe the guy just went down a dark path because he wanted to. His His brother thinks the Marine Corps changed him, that he was never the same after his time in the military.

Either way, it seems clear to me that this dude had some deep, deep darkness in him. And I'm glad he stowed a way where he can't ever hurt anybody again. Mm-hmm. Yeah, he meant to that. Yep. Okay, campers. Moving on. For this next case, we're in Anaheim, California, May 28th, 1980.

We're still in California. We didn't mean to do this. Woo-hoo. Dorothy Jane Scott. but no relation, I'm sure, Shelby, was at work. I'll ask my husband, maybe. Oh, maybe, maybe. Well, Dorothy was at work at Swinger's Psych Shop slash Custom John's Head Shop, where she was the secretary.

She was helping run a staff meeting, and she kept noticing one of her co-workers, Conrad Bostron, kind of squirming in his chair and messing with a nasty looking ouchy on his arm. It was a big raised bump, and it looked angry, kind of had streaks raiding out from it. After they wrapped up the meeting, Dorothy was like, Conrad, what is up, man? Are you okay? He was not. His arm was killing him. He was starting to get all sweaty and clammy, and his stomach was cramping up horribly. Dude was in a bad way. So Dorothy said, okay, let's get you in a car. You need to go to the ER. Their other co-worker, Pam Head, decided to come along too, and they headed over to the Irvine Medical Center emergency room. Now, y'all know what it's like in the ER, right?

You can be bleeding out your eyeballs and you still got to wait. By 9 p.m., they were still there trying to get Conrad diagnosed and treated, and Dorothy decided to step out for a few minutes to go home, see her four-year-old son Sean and let her parents, who were there watching him, know she was going to be late. While she was there, she changed her scarf from the black one she'd worn to work to a red one. This is going to be important, so remember that detail. Back at the ER, the doctors finally got Conrad sorted out. The poor guy had a black widow spider bite in his arm.

Yikes. So they gave him some medication and some discharge instructions to keep taking care of himself at home. Yeah, personally, I could never go back to that house again. Because, you know, there's a black widow spider in there somewhere. It's done. I'd shut it down. I'd have to nuke the place from orbit. It's the only way to be sure.

You know, I actually have a truce with the spiders in my house, to be honest. I mean, they're just harvestmen. They eat the bugs. Oh, yes. Here we go. Camphers, whenever you let anybody know you have a spider phobia, they cannot wait to try and reason with you about it. It's so funny. Or tell you how much they love spiders.

They're important part of the ecosystem. Don't bother them and they won't bother you. Okay, well, talk to Conrad about it. Okay? Let's see what Conrad has to say about the truce and the ecosystem. I'm curious. Shelby, where do you come down on this? I bet you're one of them, aren't you? You probably think spiders are just adorable little crawly peppers. Come on, confess. I'm in the middle. Look, I respect them. I don't want to touch one, but I'm not going to smush it either. I'm like you, I have a feared respect for them. I don't smush them either, and I'll tell you why, because I can't go near them. Like I literally, well, I have, my husband will tell you I have a size threshold. Like if it's a really tiny one sometimes, I can maybe bring myself to like throw a book on it and then leave it there for him to clean up.

But if it's beyond that threshold and it's pretty tiny my threshold, then I have to just hire a hitman, i.e. my husband or whatever other poor bastard happens to be around at the time because I can't get close enough to him to kill him. It just freaks me out. Usually I'm like, you don't have to kill him. You know, it's like last call. You don't have to go home, but you can't stay here. Just put them outside. It's fine. Whatever you do with it, I don't care. Just get it out of my sight. Like, blah.

Oh, my God. No. Okay. I know it's not logical. I know I'm not right. No, I know. Like, I know I'm wrong. Like, obviously, if we kill all spiders, we'd be, like, buried in bugs.

My father, listen, I need to be careful because my, sometimes I wake up to pictures from my, from my father and the family group chat of all of the scorpions he found around the house. So kind of a back story. The only thing he asked for for Father's Day from both my brother and I was a black light so he could go bug hunting around his like desert home. This is, I need to. So they light up, don't they, scorpions under a black light? They do.

Yeah, they glow. Yeah, my parents live in the desert too. So, yeah. So fun fact. I'm not a big fan of the scorpions either, but I don't have. the phobia of them. It's just spiders, really. I like lots of other bugs. Like, I can hold them, touch them, whatever, but I can't even hold a fake spider. Like, I can't hold a plastic spider. That's how bad it is. Wow. Yeah. I will tell a very quick story about a scorpion, though,

if you guys have a minute. Okay. I know we don't usually do this, but this is so crazy. When I was in college, I went to this party, okay? And it was real dimly lit, you know, like the whole candles and kianti bottles thing. And there was this dude walking around. And I was, and I thought he was showing everybody his tattoo on his arm. He was putting his bicep in everybody's face and pointing at it. And I'm like, oh, all right, you know, kind of cute guy. So I went over and said, what did you got there? Y'all, it was a live scorpion on his arm.

It was allegedly his pet scorpion, which I would argue is that is not a thing. A scorpion does not love you, okay? It's just waiting for its chance. No, I will never love you. No, it's just waiting for its chance to stick that little thing. in you and kill you and eat you. But yeah, he was walking around with a like live-ass scorpion. And I just screamed and ran outside and bad animal husbandry.

I don't even remember anything after that. It was horrifying. I have seen people own scorpions as pets. Like, I know people that do. Yeah. But like I feel like having it out in like a stressful situation like a party is just not nice to the scorpion. Yeah.

Or your friends. You're being a bad scorpion dad. I'm bad scorpion dad. Absolutely. So, all right. So they discharged Conrad from the ER at 11. And while he and Pam stood in line at the hospital pharmacy to get Conrad's prescription, which was probably a huge bottle of Xanax to help him cope with the fact that there was a black widow spider somewhere in his house. Dorothy went out to the parking lot to bring the car around. Simple, right? You'd think that would take two seconds. But when Conrad and Pam finished up, at the pharmacy, they went out front to wait for. And after a few minutes, they were kind of looking at each other, like, this is taking, like, a lot longer than it should, right? Where the heck is Dorothy? So they waited a while longer, and then finally they decided to go kind of walk around

the parking lot and look for her. Like, maybe she was having car trouble or something. And as they walked toward the parking area, they suddenly saw Dorothy's white station wagon just hauling ass toward him. And they tried to waver down, like, hey, Dorothy, here we are. But the car just went speeding by. like they had to jump out of the way. And the headlights were just blazing, like bright lights on,

so bright that Conrad and Pam couldn't actually see her behind the wheel. They couldn't tell who was driving. And as they watched, in total confusion, the car turned right out of the hospital parking lot, turned its headlights off, and sped away. So, huh, right? What the hell just happened? Dorothy was the last person you'd expect to let down her friends.

She was the sweetest, kindest thing you'd ever want. want to meet. She'd never be rude on purpose. She'd never leave you hanging, and she'd certainly never almost mow you down in a parking lot. Conrad and Pam were just baffled. They thought, okay, maybe she's just worried about leaving Sean for so long. Maybe she realized she was supposed to be somewhere and panicked. Maybe she'd misunderstood somehow, thought her coworkers were getting home some other way. She'd probably call them later all apologetic and embarrassed about leaving them there, and that'd be that. But these reassuring thoughts didn't quite take for either one of them.

Dorothy just would not do this, not unless something had gone really wrong. And as the hours passed by after the hospital visit with no word from her, the sense of unease just kind of blossomed bigger and bigger, until finally, Conrad and Pam decided they'd better go ahead and report their friend missing. She wasn't the type you'd expect to disappear like this either. Dorothy was as dependable as the sunrise. She was a devoted single mom and daughter and employee and a dedicated Christian. And despite her choice of workplace, she didn't drink or do drugs.

It's almost like a premise for a sitcom, isn't it? Like straight-laced woman working with a bunch of hippies at a head shop. You know, for her, it worked. You know, she might have stuck out a little bit at the Swinger's psych shop, but everybody loved her there too. And Dorothy's personal life was pretty uneventful. She didn't really date. She worked seven days a week, most weeks, and she took care of her son. One of her friends described her as, quote, dull as a phone book.

And although that really kind of sounds like an insult, it was just the way Dorothy liked it. Yeah. If I ever die and you describe me as dull as a phone book, I'm coming back to haunt you. No kidding. I'm happy to live a pretty calm, predictable life and all, but dull as a phone book, just, I don't know, it has a ring. It's a little bitchy. I'd prefer drama free or something like that. Please don't sit down with Keith Morrison and be like, let me tell you, Keith, you've never met anybody more stultifyingly, achingly dull in your life.

Talking to Whitney, it was like watching paint track. Actually, no, you'd get more excited doing that. She was basically Colin Robinson from what we do in the shadows, okay? She just sucked the life out of the room. I'm like, please, just let up a little, okay? I'm just picturing Keith Morrison being like, uh-huh, yeah, tell me more. With his like understanding face on, gosh. Yeah, with his face, that face with his, yeah, his comforting face.

So basically, Dorothy was a kind-hearted, responsible person who looked after the people she loved. not the type to run off and abandon her life. And when the police found out she was missing, they were immediately concerned. There was none of that. She's an adult. She can go missing if she wants to stuff. We see in so many missing persons cases, which is so frustrating. See, the police knew Dorothy Scott.

She'd come to them some time ago for help. Dorothy was being stalked. She'd been getting phone calls, extreme stuff, like, When I get you alone, I will cut you up into bits so no one will ever find you. Ugly, ugly threats. And the frustrating thing was, the voice felt so familiar. She just couldn't place why. Was it a customer from the head shop, a neighbor, somebody she knew years ago?

She couldn't be sure. But there was always this tantalizing feeling like the caller's name was floating just outside her consciousness, waiting for her to reach out and grab it. She tried and tried, but it was always just out of reach. The police put a voice recorder on Dorothy's phone to gather audio evidence and hopefully catch the caller slipping up and saying something that might reveal his identity. It was, for the time being, all they could really do. It wasn't illegal to make creepy phone calls.

Yeah, and stalking laws were pretty much non-existent back then. Yeah, and like the phone recorder was just cutting. edge technology at the time. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. The caller told Dorothy he was always watching her, and it seemed like he was, a lot of the time, at least. He'd make comments about what she wore to work that day, where she went afterwards, stuff like that. And one day, he told her to go outside and check her

car. He'd left her a little present, he said. And when she went outside to look, she found a single red rose, dead and wilted on the hood. Dorothy was so terrified that she started taking a self-defense class. Oh, good for her. Damn right. Brave girl. Yeah, she wasn't taking this lying down. She was trying to be proactive about it, which is exactly what you should do in that situation.

But she was scared. And now, a week after she started taking karate, she was missing. And everybody who loved her was worried sick. The next morning, there was a break in the case. Dorothy's white station wagon turned up, burned to a crisp in an alley, about ten miles from the hospital. The responding officers checked the charred trunk with their hearts pounding, half expecting to find her body in it. But there was nothing. It was just the car, torched almost beyond recognition. Where was Dorothy? For two weeks, her family felt like they could barely breathe. They jumped a mile at every knock on the door, every phone call. Then one evening, the phone rang.

Dorothy's mom, Vera, answered, holding your breath as always. Are you related to Dorothy Scott? The caller asked. Vera said, yes, I'm her mother. There was a moment of silence. Then the voice said, well, I've got her. And before Vera could answer, he hung up. Oh, my God.

The police felt sure that the asshole had been stalking Dorothy before her disappearance was now tormenting her family. They asked Vera and Dorothy's death. had Jacob not to talk to anybody about the call. But feeling desperate for answers, Jacob talked to a reporter with the Orange County Register anyway. And the story hit the paper on June 12th. Interesting. June 12th, it was June 13th in 2004 when Bobby Lee's and Moreland was a That's right. That same day, the register got a call of their own. The caller said, I killed her. I killed Dorothy Scott. She was my love. I caught her cheating with another man.

She denied having someone else, and I killed her. He also seemed to know details of the case that hadn't been made public. He talked about her red scarf, the one she changed into when she left the hospital to check on her son, and the fact that the guy she was with that night had a spider bite on his arm and had to go to the ER. Which, how you'd know that, that's a really intimate detail. Like, even if you were just following her, like, how would you know it was a spider bite? You know, that's really, really creepy. So there seemed to be no doubt about it that this guy was Dorothy's abductor.

The call totally baffled Dorothy's family and friends, though. I mean, she was a single mom. She barely had time for any kind of fun at all, let alone a boyfriend. She got up, she took care of Sean, she had to work first thing in the morning, worked until well after closing, went home, and took care of her son again. When would she be seeing a man? It just didn't make sense. The suspect pool, of course, was massive.

Customers at the head shop, her neighbors, her co-workers, her ex, Sean's dad. That last one would seem like a really good possibility, but Sean's dad lived all the way in Missouri at the time, so he had a rock-solid alibi. What struck the detectives was what a weird time the kidnapper had chosen for the abduction. Dorothy had such a regular routine, but this guy struck on the one night she broke from it to take her co-worker to the hospital.

Strange, right? Mm-hmm. Whoever stalking her must have been watching her pretty closely to notice a change like that, and something must have triggered him to attack. Was it Conrad? Was he jealous? Was he the other man the caller talked about? Was he always planning to strike that night and just stuck with the plan despite the change in routine?

The case went cold pretty quickly. Nobody really stood out as a suspect, and according to Dorothy's friends and family, she had no enemies, no infatuated exes, no flings. just the mysterious caller, and nobody knew who he was. For the next four years, though, Vera kept getting phone calls. Sometimes the caller asked for Dorothy. Other times he taunted Vera saying he had her daughter. And sometimes he just said, I killed her, and hung up.

The man knew Vera and Jacob's schedules well enough that he would only call when he knew Vera was home alone. Always on Wednesdays. At least, that was the case until June of 19. when the creep was late. Wednesday came and went with no call. When he called this time, Jacob answered the phone, and quickly, without a word, the caller hung up. Why, some internet sleuths think that maybe he was afraid that Jacob would recognize his voice. I'm not so sure about that personally. People who have heard the recordings say that the man's voice is gravely and

obviously disguised, and the police have recordings of it, so I'm sure Jacob had heard the guy's voice before. That is true. Of course, the caller might not have realized that they had recordings, so he might have still been worried about letting Jacob hear his voice. Yeah, in my professional opinion, though, I think the guy's just a pussy. Fallon coward. Yellow-bellied milk-toast weakling.

Like, he gets his rocks off by terrifying women but can't bring himself to confront a guy. Pathetic. No. Regardless, though, the caller was so freaked out by Jacob answering the phone that he waited four months before he called again. And then, on August 6th, 1984, a construction crew working beside the Santa Ana Canyon Road discovered bones.

They were partially charred, and since a wildfire had come through that area in 1982, the forensic investigators believed the bones must have been there at least that long. There were other finds among the bones. a turquoise ring and a watch stopped at 1232 a.m. on May 29th. Dorothy's mom, Vera, and her co-workers, Conrad and Pam, all confirmed that this was the jewelry she'd been wearing the night she disappeared. And 1232 a.m. May 29th? That was about an hour after Pam and Conrad saw Dorothy's car speeding out of the hospital parking lot. Ultimately, dental records and forensic testing identified the bones as a mix. Some were dog bones,

and the rest were the remains of Dorothy Jane Scott. The dog bones were an interesting detail. This being the 80s, aka the golden age of satanic panic, it made people wonder if the murder was part of some kind of occult ceremony, animal sacrifice and all that. Yeah, it's creepy, but, I mean, it doesn't exactly fit with the rest of the information we have on the case. You don't see a lot of obsessed stalkers who just happen to be members of satanic cults in their spare time. You know, a cult is kind of a time commitment, you know, and so is stalking. So you pretty much have to pick one or the other. That's what they tell you in stalking school if you try to take on cult activities as an extracurricular.

There's just not enough time in the day. Yeah. You know, it's not allowed. Unsurprisingly, an autopsy didn't tell the investigators a whole lot. When a body is totally skeletonized, it's really tough to determine a cause of death. Unless you have obvious signs like nicks from a knife or broken bones from blunt force trauma, you're pretty much in the dark. And in this case, there were no such signs. Which probably means she was strangled or suffocated, bless her heart, but we just don't know for sure.

Yeah. Vera and Jacob held a memorial service for their daughter on August 22nd, 1984. Finally, they had at least a little bit of closure. They knew Dorothy wasn't coming home. But it was bittersweet. They still didn't know for sure how she died, and of course they had no idea who had killed her, or why. The harassing calls from the suspected killer kept up for at least a few weeks after Dorothy's body was found. We couldn't tell from the sources we used whether they kept up after that, but I think it's implied that they didn't. It seems like they just trailed off after a little while. I hope so, anyway. There are a few suspects that always come up in any discussion of this case, but there's no indication that the investigators even considered them persons of interest. For example,

there's this mechanic guy who worked across the street from the shop where Dorothy worked. Everybody talks about his, quote, alternate religious beliefs and the fact that he was, quote, unquote, weird. But there's no indication that the police ever considered him a suspect. It seems to us like he really didn't do anything except be kind of odd. And if they can arrest you for that, well, we are all in deep shit. Thank you. Dorothy's murder is still unsolved, almost 40 years later. Was the killer the same man making creepy fun?

phone calls right before she disappeared. Had to be. I think it had to be, right? I mean, what a bizarre coincidence if not. And the asshole who kept harassing her mom after her death remember new details that were never made public. So, you know. Yeah.

Yeah, exactly. I think the scariest thing about this case is that the voice on the phone was familiar to Dorothy. Oh, my God, right? That's the detail that haunts me, too. Like, I feel like he had to be somebody she knew, but like probably not somebody she knew. real well, like maybe a customer from the head shop. I know the police investigated some of the odd ducks who were regulars at the shop, and they didn't come up with anything, though. And they

looked at her exes and managed to rule everybody out. So I have a feeling this was a case of erotomania. Yeah. If you're not familiar with that, Campers, it's an obsessive delusional belief that you're involved in a romantic relationship with somebody when in reality you're not. A lot of times it's a celebrity, but sometimes people can fixate on people they know. One famous example is the case of Robert John Bardo, who became obsessed with my sister Sam actress Rebecca Schaefer. He wrote her hundreds of letters, showed up at the studio where she worked trying to see her, got turned away a million times by security, and then Schaefer did a movie role where she had to get kind of sexy, and Bardo flipped out. He saw it as a betrayal of their love, and in July of 89, he showed up on her front door.

step and shot her dead. It's fucking terrifying. So, yeah, it's possible that Dorothy was abducted and murdered by a stalker who had just decided they were meant for each other. Maybe when he saw her with Conrad that night, he felt betrayed and took her.

For me, that is by far the most likely scenario. I don't buy the satanic sacrifice, cult murder, dog bone bullshit one little bit. And it also does not feel to me like an ex-boyfriend, really, or like ex-husband or whatever. But unfortunately, we may never know for sure what happened. I mean, this is a really cold case.

We're talking about almost 40 years. And sadly, Jacob Scott, her dad, passed away in 1994 and Vera in 2002. So, you know, they never got to see any justice at all. And Sean, who was only four when she disappeared, had to grow up without his mama, which is just bullshit, and I hate it for him so much. So, be interested to hear y'all's theories on this one. And, uh, holy shit, right? So y'all probably don't know this, but we had a poll on our Patreon page a while back.

We asked the patrons what kind of cases we should do for Halloween month, because we always like to do something kind of special, and they picked extra dark ones. So patrons, I think you'll have to agree that you got what you asked for. So don't come crying to us. You said you wanted dark. We gave you dark. And Shelby Scott, darling, thank you so much again for joining us for yet another fantastic Halloween episode. We love you. We love your shows. We appreciate your time so much. And now tell them about your new show because I know they're all going to want to listen.

Oh, thank you so much. So my new show is actually with Parcast. I think a lot of people are familiar with Parcast. And it's called mediums. And it's, I explore the world. of mediums a lot of mostly at the turn of the 20th century and whether from everyone from con artists to the ones who were never proven no one was ever able to prove that they were a hoax in any way which is so interesting I mean I have there's an episode coming up where one of them was literally arrested during World War II for witchcraft and it was a it was a law from the 1700s And it's because she was so accurate with predicting things that had happened in the war that were top secret that the government, the British government, was like, we have to put her in jail. She's going to like ruin D-Day, basically. And so, yeah, it's crazy.

And then if you like True Crime Campfire where these lovely ladies tear apart serial killers, I make a lot of fun of Harry Houdini, who you all know who that is. because it turns out he was super obsessed with ruining women's lives. And I have a whole episode about how big of a dork he was. So good. Well, well, well, this I did not know, but I am very excited to learn more. And from what I've heard so far, it is just so good, Cameron. It's so good that I'm pissed I didn't think of the premise myself and get there first. Like, that's how good it is.

It's so good. As of course is everything, Shelby turns out. I mean, her main show, as you know, is Scare You to Sleep, which, like I said earlier, is the gold standard in horror story podcast. So check that one out, too. If you haven't already, you will not be disappointed. Thank you. We love her. And she's our fairy pod mother as well.

She really helped us a lot in our early days, with TCC with advice and all. I'm happy to. Yeah, we're all actually friends. We've known each other since before our podcast. So that's fun. I know. I had the pleasure of like watching Scary You to Sleep. sleep, blossom, and become wildly successful.

And then you got to watch us come up, which is so cool, right? Yeah, I knew about true crime campfire, true crime campfire before all of you did. I knew before all of you. That's right. She knew about it before it was, before it was. And we appreciate, still appreciate all your help and advice because you always. Of course. Happy to.

So, those were wild ones, right, campers? And you know we'll have another one for you next week. But for now, lock your doors, light your love. and stay safe until we get together again around the true crime campfire. And as always, we want to send a grateful shout out to a few of our lovely patrons. Thank you so much to Kim, Allison, Amy, Rachel, Brooke, and Jules. We appreciate you to the moon and back. And y'all, if you're not yet a patron, you are missing out.

Patrons of our show get every episode ad-free at least a day early, sometimes even two, plus an extra episode a month. And once you hit the $5 and up categories, you get even more cool stuff. a free sticker at $5 a rad enamel pin while supplies last at 10 virtual events with katie and me we just did one two days ago right and we're always looking for new cool stuff to do for you so if you can come join us Shelby don't stop recording don't hit stop I don't know if you know this and we forgot to talk about the show we have to I forgot to warn you it before we do a post show for our patrons which is just kind of like us shooting the shit talking about the episode um um

I want the record. Somebody made us a theme song for it. Yes. Somebody wrote his theme song. It's delightful. Aw. Cute. I want the fucking record to show that I picked the unsolved case this time.

I know you guys were like, oh, Katie probably didn't pick the unsolved case. You always do. You did? Yes. Oh, my God. You're always suggesting them. It just blows my mind. It's like, I thought you hated unsolved cases.

And then yet every time, like, you're always bringing them up. I'm like, I'm getting some mixed signals to you, Katie. okay it's so funny I was just telling my parents some like behind the scene because they love your show and I was like talking about cold cases and I was like did you know that Katie doesn't like cold cases and she hates them and they were like really and I was like yeah that's just some insider knowledge for you it's true but I also know because here's the thing is I'm nothing if not a saleswoman that's not true I'm not a saleswoman but I do have a business I do have a master's in business administration so I know what the Camber's liked. Yep. So I'm like, okay, I can I can subject myself. And this one, so actually this one doesn't bother me that much because

as crazy as it makes me there are no suspects. So like, I'm like, I don't know who did it. Right. Like it doesn't haunt me at night. Yeah. That makes sense. You don't have to like figure out which one of three did it or whatever. You don't have to sort that out. Or like the one that's so obvious

but got away for like on a technical And it's like, oh, yeah. I think part of it, though, is also because I remember Whitney told me about that, because again, I don't touch cold cases at all. And like, I think even before T.C. was a dream, we were talking about unsolved cases. And Whitney told me about this one. And she was like, I was like, oh, her stalker just took her. And Whitney was like, no, Katie. He took her on a night that she wasn't following a routine.

And it made me angry for like three days. and it's stuck with me since then and so when Whitney was like oh what case do you want to do and I was like looking up some cases and I was like what about Dorothy Jane Scott and Whitney goes oh my God I was going to recommend this case for you

I was literally poised over my screen on my phone to text her what about Dorothy Jane Scott it was crazy it was like a moment of CCC telepathy and bonkers man synchronicity No, this is one of the cases that it really chills me to the bone. I remember, was it, was it on Unsolved Mysteries?

It was on one of the older crime shows. That's one of the only sources. And I remember the, the, what's it called, the reenactment of the car coming towards them with the lights. And like, you know, the reenactment was done well enough, like, that it was, you could really see what they saw and you can't see anything. And, like, the, the heartbreaking feeling. they must have had later where it was like she was right there like I know they couldn't have

really done anything but like she was right there and yeah she was gone forever you know she was probably in the trunk yep or something in that moment it's horrifying and that she knew like she was probably just like a couple days from remembering or knowing or recognizing yeah and like because you know if if she'd been able to listen to that voice enough and that's where you're they started recording and she would have had enough recordings maybe to just listen and listen and listen and figure out who that was. And that is by far the most chilling detail to me that she just almost had it. But she just couldn't quite put her finger on who it was. Do you think that he planned to get her that night or was it because there was a change in the routine that he kind of was like, it's got to be tonight because I'm freaked out because she went somewhere else. I think he was pissed about comment. I don't know if he planned because it was so sloppy. I think he just was irrationally mad about Conrad. But like, but also.

It was very sloppy. If he had waited, like she would have been like her parents would have been like around. Her son would have been around. So maybe, I don't know. Maybe he did plan it. But like the fact that it was perfect, she just, she just happened to go to her car by herself. That's what's bonkers. Yeah.

And how the hell did he know about the spider bite? Like he must have been close enough to. to them to hear them talking. Yeah. Like, it had to be a customer or something who heard maybe like a day later hearing Conrad say, oh, it turned out to be a spider, but like overheard him saying that to someone else. Yeah. It's somebody who's like been in close proximity to this whole thing.

And that that's just incredibly creepy to me. Yeah, because when was, it's so. When was HIPAA like invented or founded or written? Because I'm wondering. Oh, that's a good question. Because like if he knew Conrad's name, he could have been like. Oh, what's Conrad in here for? Hey, my Uncle Conrad.

Yeah. What happened to him? Yeah. Yeah, I don't know. I'm Googling. Yeah, I don't know. Oh, it's 1996. Okay.

Oh. So there was no hip-down. So they could have just told him. Okay. That's interesting. He could have been. Yeah, he could have been. And he knew enough, obviously, about Dorothy and everything to walk in and be like,

hey, my friend Conrad, and then his co-worker Dorothy, blah, blah, was just here. What happened? And since it was just a spider bite of court, like a nurse could have been like, oh, it was just a black widow. It was a spider bite. Like, you know, like, don't worry. And, like, he was confident enough that he wouldn't be recognized. Like, if he walked in, or maybe he called. I don't know.

Yes. Like, I don't know which of these cases. It's so chilling. It's so chilling. Because, like, on one hand, the knowing but not knowing and on the other, just the senseless fucking violence. so scary yeah yeah senseless like you you were saying earlier about

you know these these chaotic killers are terrifying because they're chaotic you know you can't figure it there's no pattern yeah yeah it's a total nightmare like just random violence just some random person who doesn't even know you just walks into your house and violently takes your life like that

it's horrifying it's a nightmare it's a horror movie literally it's like worse than horror movies the dog bones do you think that it was like a later date thing like she was dumped later and it was just bones and he dumped in dog bones with it to try to fool people like not really thinking about DNA because it was earlier you know it was the 80s so it wasn't like DNA was at the front of everyone's mind and being like okay if I just mix these bones together no one will realize they're human bones basically what's I mean yeah and I know I have actually heard of people burying bodies underneath a pet dog or something like that.

Yeah, that's right to throw off the cadaver dogs and things. That's like a meme. Yeah, exactly. So when they dig, they find a dog and they're like, oh, here it is. Exactly. So maybe, you know, that's very possible. Maybe it was a shallow grave and the fire unearthed, you know. Oh, that's a good point.

The fire could have been the, I just assumed he just threw the bones out, but. That's what I was thinking too, but you're right, the fire, yeah, especially since they were scorched. God. So, yeah, I certainly don't think it was any satanic cult or anything like that, but I think it could have been somebody who is forensically aware enough to want to, like, you say, like throw off the sniffer dogs or something like that. Interesting. Yeah. Well, now I'm going to. We should have had this conversation in the regular episode.

This is good stuff. We could also release this as part of the regular episode and say, hey, we'd offer this to patrons. It's true. We could. So. Hey, bonus. Halloween bonus. Listen to us. Galwayne bonus. Because we, I mean, because we started this because sometimes we'd be talking after the episode and we'd come up with these good ideas and like. Yeah. So then we were like, we should just keep recording and release it as patron bonuses. And now we're like coming up with good ideas. That's genius. I love that. But I. Thank you. It was a shower thought.

I just wanted. I need. I needed the post show to validate that I picked this case. Let it be known. Yes. I'm very proud of you. I was thrilled you picked. I love this case. I'm proud of you, too. Last time I was on here, it was also a cold case. And we had this discussion. And I was like, oh, my God, I feel so bad. Listen, I am happy to take this bullet because I know that there are people out there that appreciate cold cases, despite the fact that I'm not going to be able to fucking sleep tonight so your sacrifice is notified you should really saint you or something thank you

Whitney I'm sorry and I'm sorry for defending spiders have we made up oh my god we just don't even start with I think my phobia must come from from two different places one is when I was about probably eight or nine years old I was walking around my grandparents farm with my uncle and I reached out for a barn door to pull it open and my uncle just who is not the most you know chill person in the world the best of times just freaked out and like grab me and jerk me back and like don't touch that I'm like what the hell and he's like there's a black widow spider on that door I don't know if actually was a black widow spider or not but he was so freaked out and like seeing him scared freaked me out and like that made a major impression that'll trigger it

And then a few years after that, yeah, that was probably the, like, the seed. And then a few years after that, our neighbor, this big, strong dude, the dad of my friends next door, got bitten by a brown recluse at his vacation house. And his leg, y'all, I cannot even describe to you what happened to this man's leg. It swelled up to twice its normal size, and the wound itself, you would look at it. it and it was just like boiling like it was just absolutely horrifying because it was necrotizing the tissue he had to have a bunch of surgeries he was in the intensive care for a while like it was gnarly and it bothered him for years after that like it wasn't just a little thing it was like

years of surgeries and problems and stuff from that one brown recluse spider bite so between those two things it's like not a fan of the crawley boys i totally understand i'm sorry i love them for defending spiders. I didn't mean to. I was just trying to let you know that they just live in my house and it's fine. But I will evict them before you get here. And okay. No, no, you do what you like unless I'm coming to visit.

Yeah, recall. I am from the high desert. It's just funny to me that people always want to reason with you. No, I don't want to reason with you. I understand. Phobias. I lived in the high desert for so long that like I moved to the south and now suddenly I have to think about fucking bugs all the time.

Yeah. There's a lot of spiders. No bugs live in Colorado. I know somebody's going to correct me, but like, as far as I know. Are you serious? Okay, I'm going to move there tomorrow. No mosquitoes. That sounds like.

No, like, dangerous spiders. It's just like sometimes flies and mods. Are you shitting me? Mm-mm. Why has no one told me this? I don't know. I don't know. I know. I want to go.

Let's all. Listen. There's no bugs there. three of us in a cabin in Colorado, we'll have a podcast cult. That's where we can start the compound. Compound. Yeah. Oh, there you go.

We'll have a compound of cabins. And Shelby, your compound can be right next door. Yeah, yeah. It'll be a super compound. Oh, yeah. We can have like all of our jumpsuits won't necessarily match so we know who's compound you're with, but they will also like kind of go together. Comptorinating.

Exactly. The compliment, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, and we can have dances, you know, where the campers get to meet the scariest sleepers and, you know, mingle and mix and all that. Exactly. I'm lacking this idea already. I'm into it. We're going to go now so we can completely plan this compound, but campers.

We have to plan the compound. Yeah, we need to put down our angry yoga schedule. Can't wait. Yeah. Okay. Angry shouting. yoga. All right.

Well, happy Halloween, everybody. Yeah, happy Halloween. Thank you guys again for having me here. Thank you for being here, baby. We love having you on. Bye. Bye.