True Crime Campfire - The Gray Man: The Crimes of Russell Williams, Pt 2

Episode Date: June 5, 2026

Our homes are supposed to be where we’re the safest. It’s where we’re our most vulnerable. Last week, we told you about someone who would use that vulnerability to his advantage. This week, as the story continues, his monstrous intentions will focus on two women and destroy their families' senses of safety forever. Join us for part 2 (the final part) of the story of Russell Williams. Sources: Appleby, Timothy. A New Kind of Monster: The Secret Life and Shocking True Crimes of an Officer . . . and a Murderer The Fifth Estate, episode Above Suspicion https://www.forbes.com/sites/suzannerowankelleher/2021/03/09/women-belong-in-the-kitchen-burger-kings-international-womens-day-tweet-goes-up-in-flames/ https://globalnews.ca/news/7411289/jessica-lloyd-russell-williams-sentenced-10-years/ https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-11801857 https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/williams-military-uniform-burned-1.924008 https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/col-russell-williams-timeline-1.913312 Follow us, campers! Patreon (join to get all episodes ad-free, at least a day early, an extra episode a month, and a free sticker!): https://patreon.com/TrueCrimeCampfire https://www.truecrimecampfirepod.com/ Facebook: True Crime Campfire Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/truecrimecampfire/?hl=enEmail: [e-mail]! https://true-crime-campfire.myspreadshop.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hello, campers, grab your marshmallows and gather around the true crime campfire. We're your camp counselors. I'm Katie. And I'm Whitney. And we're here to tell you a true story that is way stranger than fiction. We're roasting murderers and marshmallows around the true crime campfire. Our homes are supposed to be where we're the safest. It's where we're our most vulnerable.

Last week, we told you about someone who would use that vulnerability to his advantage. This week, as the story continues, news, his monstrous intentions will focus on two women and destroy their family's senses of safety forever. This is part two of the gray man, the crimes of Russell Williams. So, campers, when we last left off, Colonel Russell Williams had been committing dozens of burglaries to satisfy his urges to violate and humiliate women for several years, burglaries which wouldn't be discovered until he was caught years later. He would break into houses and steal women's underwear, bras and swim sometimes taking photos of himself wearing the pieces he'd take while masturbating.

Ugh. He'd finally started escalating by taking bigger and bigger risks, entering homes when the occupants were there, breaking into houses in his neighborhood and leaving messages for his victims. Then he committed two assaults against women in Tweed, Ontario, during which he beat them, found them, and kept them terrorized for hours while he took photographs of them. Something we haven't had a chance to speak about yet,

is Russell's collection. It's not uncommon for a criminal of this type to take and keep trophies in order to relive their crimes. In fact, it's a necessary part of their MO. Because Russell was so prolific, he sometimes had to take parts of his collection and burn it in fields around Ontario to make room for more. His collection was around 1,400 garments, all neatly folded and stored. He took videos and photos of not only the clothes and himself in the clothes, but also family portrait. his victim's diplomas, their personal keepsakes. Ugh, it's so creepy. In one horrific memorable instance, he took a victim's makeup brush,

held it against his penis for a photo, and put it back where he found it. Yeah, take a second. I know that is beyond horrific. But what does all this stuff add up to? It's power and control, right? Like it always is with these guys. He was in your house. He was touching your stuff, and you had no idea.

You know, he probably just loved thinking about that woman using that makeup brush. It's just, it's all about control with these dudes. He obsessively took notes about each of his break-ins. In one, he made sure to explain that he forgot to reset his camera clock for the time change, so the time should actually be an hour earlier. Oh, you have to take your wins as you can in a case like this, and you know that bugged him so much. You know it's stuck in his craw for days.

Yeah, that's crucial. to know exactly what time. Some anal retinous. He would note the address, the date, the time, and the items he took from each house so that he could match the photographs with his collection. His filing system apparently was quite detailed. The final escalation, though, in my opinion,

was breaking into Marie-France-Commos house. Marie-France, being his direct subordinate, was someone who could be connected to him. And I think the fact that he gave himself permission to go into her home and steal her stuff made what came next easier for him. Marie France was a Quebecois woman who had been in the military for 12 years. Her father had served with the Canadian forces for over 40 years, so she followed in his footsteps.

Her ex-partner, Alain-Plante, said that she had found her calling. She served in Germany, Afghanistan, and the UAE before landing in Trenton, where she worked as a flight attendant for VIP military flights. Everyone who knew her talks about how warm and loving she was, but she was also a a hard worker. When she was in Afghanistan, she was tasked with moving cargo out on like the hot, dusty runway with a forklift. One colleague said tough conditions, but I never heard Marie France complain. She did her job with her usual smile, really making a difference. She was just the friendliest person there is. All her supervisors were thrilled to have her working for them. Her ex-partner's kids considered her a stepmother, and after her death, one wrote a tribute to her on social media.

He said that Marie France was the best stepmother that could have possibly set foot in our lives. When Russell broke into her home the first time on November 16th, she was on duty. This time, she had been flying with the Canadian Prime Minister to Japan, Singapore, and India on diplomatic duties. She'd literally flown around the world. When he broke in the second time, on November 23rd, she'd just returned home. He turned off his cell phone and parked his car, hidden in some woods. about half a mile away from her home. He waited outside her house and listened.

He could hear her talking to someone on the phone. When the house was quiet, he removed the window screen in her basement window and entered the house that way. Marie France's basement was unfinished and Russell hid in the shadows cast by the furnace, clutching a flashlight, waiting for Marie France to go to bed. He wore a sweatshirt, dockers, and sneakers, along with a baseball hat worn low over his eyes

and a gator that concealed his mouth and nose. He had a bag with him that contained rope, duct tape, lubricant, a flashlight, and, of course, his camera equipment. But instead of heading to bed, Marie France went to the basement. She was looking for one of her two cats, searching its regular haunts, probably calling the little guy to come to bed with her. The cat was in the basement, staring, transfixed at the man in the shadows. And like we all would, Marie France looked at where the cat was staring. like, what is it? What are you looking at? And then she saw him. She started screaming, yelling, you bastard, and Russell started hitting her with his flashlight. They struggled,

but eventually he got enough control to bind her. He wrapped her head in duct tape, leaving just enough of a hole to breathe through. For the next several hours, Russell sexually assaulted and tortured Marie-France. He took photographs and filmed her entire ordeal. She fought him valiantly. She pleaded for her life, and he told her repeatedly that he would let her live, but of course, that was a lie. She knew him. I'm sure he went there intending to kill her. Eventually, he took a piece of duct tape and placed it over her nose. He filmed as she died. He took several photos of her body.

Then he cleaned. He washed the sheets using bleach. He took photos and videos of this part, too. He removed the tape from Marie France's face. and placed her body in the bed and covered her up with the blanket. When he left out the back door, he stole nine pieces of her underwear and headed toward the airbase for his morning meetings. Marie France was supposed to meet her boyfriend Paul for dinner on the evening of the 24th. When she didn't show and wasn't picking up his calls, he was concerned and stopped by her house at around noon on the 25th to check on her.

There he found her car parked in the driveway. He tried the locked front door and then the back door. When he didn't receive a response to his call inside, he checked in the house where he found Marie France's body. Poor guy, God. Of course, Paul was immediately a suspect in her death. The police couldn't find any signs of forced entry, and they did find out that Marie France was aware that her house had been burglarized on November 16th and that she thought

that Paul had done it. Like, she noticed that things were moved around in the house, which is so scary. It's so freaky. He was cleared when he passed a polygraph test. The investigation turned up some interesting things that could be used if they could ever find out who'd done it. After Williams had managed to get Marie France under control, he'd gone back to the basement window to replace the screen so that any Lucky Lou neighbors wouldn't get suspicious. Because he'd been hitting her, he was covered in her blood and he'd left some bloody footprints on the walkway to the basement window. Williams did dispose of his shoes after the murder, so he probably noticed the blood.

He also washed his hands in Marie France's bathroom sink and left behind DNA. While Marie France's family and friends were trying to put their lives back together, Russell Williams just lived his life. He went to his meetings and then met his wife for dinner that evening, and they parted ways, and he drove to tweed. And I do think this is why people, including myself, think that their relationship may have just really been one of convenience. I mean, they very much lived separate lives. If you're wondering how Russell was able to participate in his nighttime shenanigans without his wife noticing, this is how.

They had two homes over two hours apart. He was always away. And mind you, she's not as keeper. So if it sounds like I'm like blaming her for not putting his wang on a leash or whatever, I'm absolutely not. She was just as bamboozled by Russell as everybody else, I think. I also think it's worth noting, and this is off topic, but, you know, how he left DNA. and he left bloody footprints and all this stuff. It's interesting because a lot of times you hear him described as this very organized killer, right? And in a way he is, but I find it really interesting that where he's organized is all around the parts that are psychologically satisfying to him. He's keeping meticulous notes about what he did to them and taking videos and cataloging and all this stuff.

When it comes to the actual stuff that would prevent you getting caught, the meticulousness kind of flies out. out the window. So I think that's kind of interesting. You know, the meticulousness is all around his psychological satisfaction from doing it. It's not practical, if that makes any sense. Oh, no, that's really an excellent point. And killers like Russell, who are obsessed with having a mask in place, are disturbingly good at picking partners that will afford them the lifestyle that they need to have to enable them to have an acceptable public face and the freedom of. And the freedom to fuck off and do whatever they want at night. Absolutely.

Some of that can be attributed to coercive control, like with shoe fetish killer Jerry Brutus, who was emotionally and physically abusive to his wife, who didn't notice several murders that took place in their home, and has been criticized, which I don't understand. She was absolutely abused. Yeah, absolutely. Like, he was a piece of fucking shit.

People are just desperate to put the blame somewhere other than where it belongs in these cases. and I will never understand that. I know. It's awful. Others, like Ted Bundy, use their natural charisma to explain away absences or strange behaviors to their partner.

Like, Ted Bundy had several partners. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And even during his trial, was able to... Oh, yeah. Married somebody. During the trial.

Horrifying. Yeah, so if you're ever like, I would never marry or be married, do a serial killer. Just stay frosty. Okay? Well, sometimes they're the ones that their partners will say, you know, he was the perfect husband.

So, you know, you do have the ones like Brutus who just beat them into submission. And then you have the ones like Bundy who come across as the perfect boyfriend, the perfect husband. It's very, very strange and creepy. And Darcy, Brutos's wife, she was very, very young. Oh, yeah. So he groomed her into being his perfect wife. Yeah. Yeah. So it's that you have shades of different partners for them. It's very, it's a very

interesting psychological profile, I think, for these types of killers. And obviously, Russell's wife has never spoken publicly. She's a private citizen. She is, is very private. She does not want to be in the public eye. And actually, most of Russell's private friends do not want to talk to anybody. So we don't know much about their relationship. So nothing that's obvious. speculation. For his entire family, they're victims too. Mm-hmm. 100%. The next day, which was the day

Marie France's body was discovered, the Airbase participated in a charity event for the United Way. And you know those PR scandals that happen and you have to kind of sit there and wonder who signed off on this? Who thought this was a good idea? Did anybody at all have any foresight

before greenlighting this? Like, okay, remember in 2021 on National Women's Day, Burger King, UK tweeted, women belong in the kitchen. In a separate tweet, they like posted an application for their cooking scholarship or something. Oh my God. Okay, that was on my radar. Women belong in the kitchen. I guess they were probably like intending to talk about like restaurant kitchens. Like women can be great chefs, you know, just didn't really think it through. That is hysterical. Yes. That's exactly what they were like, it was a chuky like, oh, ha ha, we mean, we mean they belong in our kitchens.

But of course, there was like a billion retweets and there was no link to the separate application to their scholarship. It was not well thought out at all. Anyway, the charity event worked like this. High-ranking people, bosses, celebrities, military commanding officers were fake arrested by real police. for silly charges, and then they beg for bail money to be set free. This is called, like, jail and bail. And apparently it's still a thing. Like, I found articles about it. And maybe it's the context in which I'm finding out about it right this very second, where a man that has terrorized countless women and just raped and murdered a woman he knew just got fake arrested for, quote, being too young to be a wing commander at 46 years old.

Oh, my goodness. Like, maybe I'd find it funnier. if it was like you, Whitney, being arrested and needing to be bailed out for loving cats too much. But guilty. I can't imagine a scenario in which someone doesn't accidentally fake arrest someone who didn't just do something horrible, you know, just by the law of large numbers. Right. And they did. And the news article, the base, wrote about it, makes it worse because it's titled Jail and Bail event. locks up the worst wing offenders with a picture of Williams

hands bound behind him smiling at the camera. Oh, my God. And little did they know he was the wing's worst offender. Oh, my God, wow. Yeah, things that did not age well, part one, right? Good God.

On November 26th, Russell was informed officially of Marie France's death via an email, to which he responded a little coldly, Understood, thank you. I'll catch up when I get in if there's additional information. He corrected the press release so that her name read Marie France rather than just Marie, and corrected the name of the squadron she was in. Thank God he did not go to her funeral. I can't imagine there's much comfort in the world for her loved ones,

but knowing that this freak couldn't ruin that is probably a very small something. He did write a condolence note to her father on behalf of the base. He wrote, Please let me know whether there's anything I can do To help you during this very difficult time. You and your family are in our thoughts and prayers. Yeah, I bet she's in your thoughts. You sick, piece of shit.

Kindly fuck off into the sun. And stay there, please. In December, Russell Williams was part of the retinue to welcome the Olympic torch on its way to Vancouver. Because, of course, he was. He's like the Forest Gump of Canada. Perverted, evil, murderous Forest Gump. Two months passed after Marie-France Como's death without much fanfare.

In fact, it doesn't even look like Russell even burglarized any houses in the two months after killing her. This may have been the famous cooling off period, you know. And then a news story ran. The headline read, police anticipate a lengthy investigation in Marie-France-Como murder, and the article encouraged the public to come forward with any details at all about Marie-France. If she visited someone, got gas, or went into a Tim Hortons, we want to know. She could have been on foot or in her car. We believe she was in her car.

We just want to confirm her whereabouts and who she might have been with. At this point in the investigation, we really have no idea. That must have been a relief to Williams. He could finally be sure that no one knew what he did. He could act again. Jessica Lloyd was missing. Jessica lived in Belleville about 35 miles from Tweed and 15 minutes away from the air base. and worked at the bus company,

tried board student transportation services as a transit planner. Her father had been in the Navy and retired when Jessica was eight. She was close with her brother and her mom, and her friends all said she was the type of friend that you always strive to be. She was reliable and warm, just a fantastic friend.

She loved hockey. I think that's a Canadian requirement. Her brother said that he can't watch a Maple Leafs game without thinking of her. On January 28th, Jessica left a friend house and later texted her to let her know that she got home safely at around 10.30 p.m. Russell Williams had left the base at around 9 and driven straight to Jessica's house. He entered through an unlocked kitchen window. Everybody stop what you're doing right now and please

make sure all your windows are locked. Russell had been driving by her house on a previous day and had seen Jessica through her front window just randomly. He later remarked that he thought she was perfect. Ugh. That night, he said he was just planning to see if Jessica lived alone and leave. He parked in a nearby cornfield and lurked around her house for about 15 minutes. And then at around 9.30, a policewoman drove by and saw Williams's SUV parked in the cornfield.

She knew Jessica personally, and she thought it was a little weird. So she went up and knocked on Jessica's door. But she got no answer, and she left. and continued her patrol. This was a judgment call that would haunt her and probably still does, but I don't know. I mean, what was she supposed to think? Jessica's car wasn't in the driveway.

The SUV was 150 yards away in a field. There were no signs of her break-in. She really had no reason to think any crime had been committed. The only thing that maybe she could have done differently would been to take down the license plate number, but even then I don't know if she'd have to cross over onto private property to do it, so, you know, who knows.

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Patrick Pickle Bottom Everyday Mysteries is perfect for kids and is just as entertaining for grownups who love a good mystery. The whole family can listen now wherever you get your podcasts. Anyway, Williams waited until the police officer left. And then he drove to Tweed to get his rape kit and his gear. When he got back, Jessica was home. He came back inside through the porch door. She woke up as he stood over her and he ordered her to comply by physically

threatening her. At 320, a local handyman saw Williams' SUV in the field and thought it was strange enough that he remembered it. Williams tied Jessica up and kept her there until about 4.30 in the morning, torturing and sexually assaulting her, filming and photographing the whole ordeal. For some reason, he then forced her out to his car and took her to his house in Tweed. He called in sick to work. Yeah, you're sick, all right. Both women who had the misfortune of encountering Russell Williams were stunningly brave. They faced a man who invaded their space and took and took and took and they fought. Marie Franz fought him off physically. She was much smaller than he was, but she fought him off a few times during her ordeal.

Jessica used her wits. At first she complied with him to try and get him to leave without hurting her, but as soon as she realized that he would not be doing that, she started making a plan. She faked a seizure and told him that unless she went to the hospital she would die. Her family said she had no history of seizures. At one point she told him, if I die, you'll make sure my mom knows that I love her. At which point Williams turned off the camera. After almost 24 hours, Williams decided that his time was Jessica was over. He told her that she was leaving, that she was going to live.

She smiled. He led her toward the door. of his cottage and then clipped her over the head with the flashlight and strangled her with some rope. He carried her body to his garage, left it there, and drove back to the airbase. The next morning, he flew out to Southern California for some training with his troops. Meanwhile, at 9 a.m., Jessica's mother, Roxanne McGarvey, got a call from Jessica's job to let her know that Jessica hadn't shown up to work. Jessica was so punctual that they thought it was weird enough to cause concern. Roxanne drove to Jessica's house and found Jessica's car in the driveway and all the

doors locked. Inside the house, she found Jessica's purse, her car keys, her cell phone, along with her glasses. She started calling around Jessica's friends to see if anyone had seen or heard from her. Jessica's brother Andy knew right away that something was wrong. He called the police and they seemed to take Jessica's disappearance seriously from the jump. This reminds me a lot of girly Chewoss and cough's disappearance. If y'all remember, her co-workers and friends immediately knew something was wrong as soon as she was late to work, like five minutes late, they knew. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Investigators found two sets of footprints in the snow leading away from the house to a set of tire tracks 150 yards away. Volunteer search parties got to work immediately on the

surrounding properties. Some of the search parties, by the way, were from the air base and had to be approved by the base commander, Colonel Russell Williams. Isn't that nice? My God, I hate that so much. Ugh. Missing persons posters were posted all over town. A Facebook group with 50,000 members was started, and search parties continued. People were starting to get touchy.

Was there someone dangerous among them? Did they have anything to worry about? In fact, a warning was issued by Belleville Police on February 3rd to women living alone. Keep your doors locked. Very your daily routine. try to be with friends. Report anything or anyone is suspicious. Oh, fuck this guy so much.

How dare you? You're no right to do this to people. Oh, I hate him. Investigators set up roadblocks, which are like DUI checkpoints, around the highways by Jessica's home a week after Jessica's disappearance. It was a good way to cast a wide net. Of course, the first question asked was, have you had anything to drink tonight?

But then they could ask, were you in this area last week? And then, did you see any? suspicious? Meanwhile, Belleville's police chief contacted the Ontario Provincial Police to see if it was possible that the Jessica Lloyd disappearance might bear a resemblance to any unsolved crimes. The OPP has a computer system called the Violent Crime Linkage System, or V-Class, which is run by the RCMP, similar to Ephus here in the U.S. Most countries have something similar. Anyway, the OPP took the four recent crimes, the two assaults in Tweed, the murder of Marie France, and Jessica Lloyd's disappearance, and showed some possible links.

All took place within an hour's drive of each other. All involved home invasions and all took place at night. As well, the Camus murder and the Tweed sex attacks a few weeks earlier showed similarities in the way the predator had tied up his victims. Finally, it seemed like the police were starting to put the pieces of the puzzle together. The public was also searching for Jessica, but they were doing it their own way, such as including details of a possible suspect on the wanted poster without verification. Oh, no. Or posting unfettered speculation on a public Facebook page where anyone, including her family, could see it. Oh, boy.

Or just generally spreading rumors without checking any information first. Oh, my God. This happens a lot with missing persons or on-go. ongoing investigations. I do think it generally comes from a good place and it can sometimes be helpful, but you just got to be careful with how you're sharing information. It can sometimes feel like you're trying to participate in like an alternate reality game instead of someone's real actual life. Yeah, and it can have very unfortunate consequences. There was some major thing. Was it the Boston Marathon where people online identified a suspect and like the whole world thought

that this person did it and it was the wrong person. I mean, can you imagine if that was you? Yikes. Yeah. Two separate eyewitnesses had seen the SUV, the police officer and the handyman, parked in the field by Jessica Lloyd's house. And because they had the tire tracks, investigators had a pretty good idea of what kind of car they were looking for. Well, kind of. They were able to narrow it down to 450 vehicles, Toyota four runners, Jeep Cherokees, and Nissan Pathfinders. They had done. been able to track down 178 of the 450 owners by February 3rd and had set up roadblocks in order to track down the rest. At the roadblock, the instructions were that if any vehicle matched

the description of the suspect SUV, the owner was to be questioned in detail, and the particulars of the vehicle recorded. Then, whoever was driving was supposed to be put under surveillance. One of the first vehicles to pull up was a 2001 Nissan Pathfinder, driven by none other than Colonel Russell Williams. Interestingly, if he would have just been 10 minutes earlier, he would have missed the roadblock entirely. He was approached by Constable Russ Alexander.

Coincidentally, Constable Alexander is the same guy that suspected Russell's neighbor of the two assaults in Tweed. Keep that in mind. Later, Williams would be embarrassed with how he handled this initial police contact. He acted like he was mad and in a hurry because he had a sick kid at home, which, whoops, he didn't have any kids at home. After the constable question Russell, he measured the width between wheels and checked the tires for where in the tire tracks.

He noted that the width wasn't a match, but the left front wheel did appear to be a match. As Williams drove away, the constable and his colleagues argued about what to do. Constable Alexander thought it was probably just a coincidence. He was like, if anyone's above suspicion, it has to be Colonel Williams. My guy. Pal, no one is above suspicion. Okay, trust us. We have so many years of true crime obsession between us that it's probably earned in its second PhD by now. I don't understand why people are like this. What is he going to do to you? Is he your boss?

It is so bizarre. And I mean, we, I can't, we could list all day. All day, we could list cases where this shit has happened and people have gotten away with stuff that they shouldn't for way too long. Like Matt Baker, the preacher. Preacher couldn't have done it. Preacher couldn't have killed his wife. Yeah, he bloody well did. Stop doing it. It's stupid. Anyway, one of his colleagues had some sense, thank God, and argued with him enough to convince him to call in surveillance on Williams. They started following him immediately on Thursday the 4th. They tracked his movement for several days as well as watching his house. On Sunday, February 7th, Williams took his car to a car wash where he cleaned it and vacuumed the interior. The police took the vacuum and contents of the canister. That afternoon, Detective Sergeant Jim Smith called Russell at his home in Ontario and told him that there were a few loose ends to be tied up from the stop at the roadblock, and he was hoping to just have a chat, and would Russell mind terribly stopping by the station? Hell yeah, Jim Smith. I think that if you're a Canadian criminal and Detective Sergeant Jim Smith calls you personally for an interview, you should probably just show up in handcuffs, like B-Y-O handcuffs. This man is the game six Michael Jordan of Canadian criminal investigations. Like, he is unbelievable.

This was early in his career. So Williams didn't know how monumentally fucked he was, but still, for a man with such a basic name, he's not basic. And you're about to see how phenomenal he is. We're going to talk about him a little bit. Yeah. Actually, Russell kind of did know how screwed he was. He hung up the phone with Smith and immediately took two 500-gig hard drives from his office

computer and hid them in the ceiling in the basement. Yeah, that won't look there. Tomass. On those hard drives, investigators would find 3,000 photographs, some of which showed the murders of Marie France and Jessica, as well as news stories about them and documentation about his various crimes. The investigator's decision to act came not a day too soon, because Williams' plan to take everything to tweet and destroy it all. Some of the items that he intended to destroy were as follows. By the bed in the master bedroom was Williams' blue duffel bag containing the black skull cap that formed part of his disguise. In the basement spare room was an Epson printer box

containing more than 50 lingerie items, lubricant, and photos of Lloyd, including her student ID card. A second box had more underwear, vibrators, and commercial sex videos. In a corner of the garage was a pillowcase that held more vibrators and more underwear, including children's panties. Oh, that's awful. And when police later searched the house on Edison Avenue, they also found a book entitled LSI Guide to Lockpicking. This quote, by the way, is from the book A New Kind of Monster, The Secret Life and Shocking True Crimes of an Officer and a Murderer by Timothy Appleby, which we used as a primary source for this case.

When Russell first sat down in the interrogation room, he was informed of the audio and visual recording devices, and he gave the most smug, smirk, to the camera. And thank God, it's the last time he's in control for the next 10 hours because it is nauseating. You'd expect someone like Russell to be a little more calm, cool, and collected when under the microscope, but this guy is just not, which is interesting because Williams was definitely building to be a serial killer. He would be really, really scary if he was able to hold it together. But man, first with the lie about the sick child at the checkpoint, which is just Bush League, I seriously can't believe he did that. Like, we get guys on this show with, like, actual body parts in their passenger seat that are able to get through traffic stops. And this guy can't have a

conversation over tire measurements. Dahmer, who was a mess, like through and through a mess. He got through. Blackout drunk. Yeah, blackout drunk. Body in the car got through the traffic stop. So just remember that when you're in your stinky little jail cell, Russ. And then there's the interrogation, which by the way, may be in my top three interrogations of all time. It's so damn good. It's all on YouTube, by the way. But Russell just can't stop himself from nervous talking. So bad. Even if they didn't already know it was him at this point, like his demeanor would have sealed it. Not so tough now, are you? You. a piece of shit. Jim asked him about when he learned about Como's murder and he says,

well, I can't remember what again, what day that the message came in just a second. No, I just can't remember what day, the day of the week, but just let me, just let me remember. No, I just can't remember the day of the week. Just let me think it was just a bunch of activity spun up as a result. I can't remember the day of the week. He's just talking. It's like it goes on for like a minute. And he's just talking. And he literally, he is, because like a normal response to be like, I don't know.

I know I got an email about it. Let me check my phone. Yeah. That is a, the normal response is I know I got an email about it. Let me check my phone. Yeah. But his brain starts glitching now. Like it's very, it's wild to see it.

And none of it makes sense. I was reading word for word just now. Yeah. I know none of that made sense because hold on. I'll read more. I can't remember the day of the week. I'm just trying to think through the news reports I read. No, I'm sorry. I can't remember what day from Act was that the MPs that learnt of her death. I think quite a bit after her body had been discovered. I had been in Ottawa earlier that in the week for some meetings over in Gatineau of one of the C-17 acquisitions. I was a a project director when I was here in Ottawa for that, just so some follow-up stuff on that. So it's like, it's called dissonance, which is a hallmark of stress. The brain is trying to catch up with the yapping. The brain is trying to come up with a lie. Yeah. But the brain logically knows that if you stop talking, it looks bad. Yeah. And I think it is often a deceptive tale. I mean,

I'm always hesitant to fall in line with the body language stuff because it's, you know, there's a lot of debate about how accurate it is, how useful it is. At the very least, you know, you have to have a baseline on the person's normal behavior before you study. You know what I mean? But this, I think, is pretty clear. Like, this man is glitching out because he's freaked out. Yeah. Yeah. And then Jim does a really good job of mirroring William's body language and is speaking calmly and softly. He's calling him Russ or bud. He's carefully and masterfully. He's carefully and masterfully, explaining how fucked William is. Russ or Bud, not Colonel Williams, right?

Which is what he's probably used to being called. And he did that for a minute one. Come on in, Russell. Settled but effective. Good stuff. About an hour and a half into the questioning, Jim really gets into it. He asked Williams what he'd be willing to provide to prove you had nothing to do with the crimes that are being investigated.

Williams goes, okay, what do you need from me? Jim says, we need DNA and fingerprints, and Williams immediately says yes. And then after William says yes, Jim pauses and then goes, and then footwear. And then Williams looks at his feet and then goes, okay. Pro. The boots he's wearing are the same boots he wore to Jessica Lloyd's house. Classic mistake. My Lord, change your shoes, you freaking moron.

Oh, my dear God. he's so dumb. From that point on, Russell's arms are crossed. And I know, I know that is, again, we don't subscribe to body language, but that is. Necessarily. I think it can be one tool in the toolbox. You know, I find it really interesting. I just, I think it gets misused a lot and people throw it around like it's definitive evidence. But yeah, I mean, that's. He glanced at his, he glanced at his, he glanced at up to the, no, no, but I think somebody who was previously very open and relaxed. Yeah. Suddenly crossing his arms is very indicative of discomfort. For sure. So the text come in and take impressions of his footwear and DNA samples and fingerprints. And then he asks Jim Smith, can I assume you're going to be discreet? Jim goes, if it's possible, yeah. And Russell responded, well, because it's going to have a significant impact on the

if they thought you thought I did this. So, so kind of getting a feel like, well, I didn't do it, but if I did, if they think, you think I did. But it's the beginning of the end. And then Russell mutters to himself, it's tough to undo the rumor mill once it gets started. And then Jim asked if there's anything that Russell wouldn't want his wife to know, at which point Russell starts swirming in his seat, Jim pressed. Did Russell have an affair with any of the four? victims. No, Russell said, of course not. Perish the thought.

There are vampires out there. They're beside you in the darkness, but what people don't understand is that they're not monsters. They're just going to work, living there on lives. But we are a dying breed. Those who came before me, they are fearful and are not content to sit back and just disappear. And they'll do anything to fix that. From the creators of Parkdale Haunt comes Woodbine, a podcast about monsters, dreams, and changes. Those you want, and those you never saw coming. Season two arrives September 24th, distributed by Realm. Goodbye, Kyle.

Did the sound of those words call to you like Pavlov's dog? Then you might enjoy our podcast, Turtle Time. Every week you can join me, Riley Hamilton, and my co-host, Amy Scarletta, as we cover the most pressing Bravo news and dig into the new episodes to answer important questions like, Who the hell is Adrian Maloof in this world?

Listen to Turtle Time on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. New episodes every Wednesday and Friday. And then Jim brought in the footprints. Fingerprints and DNA take time, but shoe prints are instant. They match the exact shoes that Russell Williams wore to kidnap and kill a woman to the ones he put on to give a police interview, which is just astonishing. But again, remember what I said about his meticulousness?

Those details go right out the window. Williams is frozen, and in the footage of the interview, he grabbed the printed photos of the boot prints. And as he glanced back and forth, just desperately, you can see he's trying to come up with some explanation, but there's just nothing. There's no good explanation, no good reason why this would be. And Jim just sits and waits, as Russell thinks. And then he throws him a lifeline. He says, this is over. Okay. And it can have a bad ending where Jessica's family continues to wonder where her daughter's lying. He also mentions that if they find Jessica Lloyd's body without Williams's help, then there are no more bargaining chips.

Jim presses again saying, Russell, what are we going to do? William's just, sighs and said, call me Russ, please. Jim just keeps on pressing. Russ, what are we going to do? Is Jessica somewhere we can find? Russ, is there anything you want from me? In the footage of the interview, you can see Russell Williams wrestle with himself over the course of several minutes. He's still trying to think of how he can get out of it. He's trying to come up with a lie or an excuse or some way to point to somebody else. But finally, I think he realized that the minute he stepped into that interrogation room, he was never stepping out again as a free man.

When Jim asked, is there something that you're struggling with that I can shed some light on? Russell said, I'm struggling with how upset my wife is, which the first time I heard that, I was like, huh? Jim must have been confused, too, because he asked, Russ, what are you looking for? Williams, again, said, I'm concerned that they're tearing apart my wife's brand new house. Okay, so on the surface, maybe he's actually worried for his wife,

but is that actually what he's thinking about at this moment? I suspect it had nothing to do with his wife at all, but rather with all the creepy shit on the hard drives that he had badly hidden in his house. He was concerned for his wife's house, not his wife. Anyway, Russell said, I want to minimize the impact on my wife. Then Jim Smith responded, so do I. Where is she? She meaning Jessica. And after 30 seconds of silence,

Russell Williams said, get a map. There's a creepy little aside about where he chose to dump Jessica Lloyd's body. Remember Larry Jones, Russell's neighbor and friend who was wrongly accused of one of the assaults in Tweed? The same month the assaults happened, Jones was getting ready to go hunting when Russell stopped over for a neighborly little chat, which was unusual for Russell. He asked Larry Jones where his hunting camp was, and Larry gave him directions. He said it was about six miles southeast of Tweed. And when Russell Williams wasn't exactly clear on where it was, Larry gave more concise instructions, and Williams just said, ah, yes, and ended the conversation. Maybe a month later, a friend of Larry saw Russell near the hunting camp wearing running gear,

staring off into the distance and appearing lost. The night that Jessica Lloyd went missing, someone broke into Larry's garage. Among the items missing were a blue cigarette lighter, a pair of work gloves, and an old coat that his dog Wes, a West Highland Terrier, was fond of sleeping upon. Jessica Lloyd's body was discovered a mile from Larry Jones's hunting camp. The items stolen from his garage were never recovered. So, was Russell trying to frame Larry? Maybe I wouldn't actually put it past him. It's very creepy.

I find it interesting that the items taken were things that can get DNA and fingerprints lifted off really, really easily. Of course, the break-in was never connected to William, so we'll never know if it was him, but it is certainly interesting, and I think it probably was. Yeah, and I think it goes back to him being good at the planning aspects and bad at the execution. Right. Because I think he gets caught up in the moment, And again, bad at the execution. Yeah, I agree. After showing the authorities where to locate Jessica's body, the next hours of the interrogation are Williams revealing the enormity of what he'd done.

And I cannot overstate how amazing this interview is from just a criminology perspective. You can see it on YouTube. We'll post a link on our socials for you to check out if you'd like, and I highly recommend watching it. It's wild. At the end of the interrogation, it was finally, finally time to put the habeas grab-est. on Russell Williams. The reaction to his arrest was not, as often happens in crimes like this, disbelief because, well, he admitted to it all.

But a lot of the reactions were strong. One Air Force captain said his legs gave out from under him. His college buddy Jeff threw up. His brother actually sent faxes to news stations saying that he and his mom had not been in contact with Russell recently and declined to answer further questions. Women around Tweed and his neighborhoods in Orleans and Ottawa remembered seeing a tall, lean man skulking around their houses and wondered if it was him. Later analysis of his copious notes would prove some of them right. Some would say he came to their doorsteps asking for directions.

Once he asked if he could come inside to see the interior, he was refused in that instance. Women that worked on the base discovered disturbing instances where the commander, seemed to know details about their homes that they did not reveal to them. Two, who lived together, were told that the other had informed him of details of the inside of their houses, but when they compared notes, they discovered that the other had never spoken to him. It turned out he'd been in their home, but by that time, no charges could be filed. Williams continued to cooperate with police after his arrest, which is pretty much unheard of in cases like this. I don't know if he thought it might get him a better deal, or if he just thought,

good at police interrogations, it was an award you could get in prison. But either way, he kept cooperating, which is kind of amazing considering how ashamed he was of his crimes. I think sometimes once that door opens, that's it. You know, like they kind of realize it's done. And I might as well get it off my chest. And again, ashamed doesn't mean he felt like remorse, by the way. Shame is not the same as remorse. Perhaps it was his way of clearing his debts, though, because in April of 2010, he did attempt suicide, but the guards managed to get to him in time. And this detail is absolutely so ridiculous

that it could have been a bit on a sketch show. He wrote his suicide note on the wall using packets of mustard stolen from the cafeteria. So after his suicide attempt, the other prisoner started calling him Colonel Mustard. Oh, my God. I'm sorry. It's so ludicrous you have to.

Like, I feel like I'm going to. going to help, but you have to laugh. But it shows you the kind nurturing environment that the prison is, right? It's up, Colonel Mustard. Oh, God. Like, what the hell? In October of 2010,

Russell Williams entered a guilty plea to 88 charges, including two counts of first-degree murder, four counts of sexual assault and forcible containment, and 82 counts of breaking and entering and attempted breaking and entering. Prior to his sentencing, his victims and their families,

were able to give impact statements. Marie France's family declined to give any statements as they said they were too heartbroken to speak to her killer. Jessica Lloyd's family would address Russell. Her mother, Roxanne, said, I feel like my heart has been ripped out of my chest, and I wouldn't wish this on anyone. But I can't help wondering why.

Jessica never did anything to anyone. I have heard that people should be forgiven for their sins, but I can honestly say I hate Russell Williams. I'm a broken woman. There's no punishment that can make this better. Jessica's brother, Andy, said, no other woman will be traumatized or murdered ever again by Russell Williams, and it is because of my sister.

She's a hero for stopping this from happening to another family. One of her aunts said, I don't know how to close my eyes at night without seeing her scared little face and his piercing eyes. Many people have said it took our angel to bring Russell Williams down. He was sentenced to two terms of life in prison with no chance of parole for 25 years, which is about as good as you get in Canada. Like, I don't know if they even have.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't know if Canada has a life without parole, period. If they do, I think it's applied pretty rarely. But it's just a chance of parole after 25 years. It doesn't mean he's going anywhere. After sentencing, Williams was stripped of his rank entitled by the Canadian Armed Forces, and they burned his uniforms in an effort to dissonance. associate themselves from him, and also probably to prevent them from falling into collector's hands, which is probably a good move. At the end of his trial, after all the

families were done, Williams was given the opportunity to speak. Your Honor, I stand before you indescribably ashamed. I know the crimes I have committed have traumatized many people. The family and friends of Marie-Franc Como and Jessica Lloyd in particular have suffered and continue to suffer profound, desperate pain and sorrow as a result of what I've done. My assaults of Jane Doe and Miss Massacot have caused them to suffer terribly as well. Numerous victims of the break and enters I have committed have been very seriously distressed as a result of my having so invaded their most intimate privacy. My family, Your Honor, has been irreparably damaged.

The understandable hatred that was expressed yesterday and that has been palpable throughout the week has me recognized that most will find it impossible to accept. But the fact is, I deeply regret what I have done, and the whole, harm I know I've caused to many. I committed despicable crimes, Your Honor, and in the process betrayed my family, my friends, and colleagues, and the Canadian forces. So if you want, you can go back and replay that and play like clown circus music behind it, because I imagine that's about as seriously as he actually took it. So, you know, that's a nice speech and all, but I think it's better to leave you with a different statement. During his interrogation, Jim Smith asked Russell,

did you like or dislike these women? Russell seemed shocked by the question. It's like raised his eyebrows, you know, he's like pondering. He thinks about it for a second, maybe two, and then he says, I didn't know anything. He didn't have an opinion on the women he hunted and terrorized and killed because they weren't people to him. They were objects.

They were just blank canvases for him to project his fantasies on, and once they were no longer useful to him, he could throw them away, like dolls. Luckily, he's right where he belongs and will never, I hope, breathe free air again. Good riddance. Now, before we go, don't forget about our two live shows coming up. First, we've got summer camp, September 10th through 13th, an amazing four-day festival at a real summer camp in Equinunk, Pennsylvania,

hosted by Dan and Lindsay Cummins, time suck and scared to death, to fantastic podcast. We'll be performing live alongside them and the podcast astonishing legends in addition to a roster of stand-up comedians and local bands. Go to bad magic productions.com for more info and to buy tickets.

And then we've got our true crime crews, Crime Wave 2.0. 1.0 was like the most fun we ever had in our lives. 2.0 is February 8 through 12, 2027. So if you want to come to the Bahamas with us and some of the biggest true crime and paranormal podcasts in the world. Like we're still pinching ourselves

that we get to be part of this. Case file, true crime garage, no sleep last podcast on the Left Sinisterhood. So many. Here's what you got to do. Tickets are on sale now and they're going fast. So if you want to go, make sure you get over to crimewave at sea.com

slash campfire and book your cabin ASAP. You'll get $100 off plus a private meet and greet with us. And the great thing is you can pay it all at once or you can set up a payment plan and pay it off over time. So get on a $100 off. it, y'all. It is so much fun. I cannot even express. And I thought I wasn't a cruise person. I always said I would never go on a cruise. Y'all, it was so much fun. I can't even tell you. I got to swim with dolphins. Okay? Anyway, so that's crime wave at sea.com slash campfire.

So that was a horrifying story, right, campers? You know, we'll have another one for you next week. But for now, lock your doors, light your lights, and stay safe until we get together again around the true crime campfire. And as always, we want to send a grateful shout out to a few of our lovely Patreon supporters. Thank you so much to Kathleen, Betsy, Adriana, Melissa, Hannah, and Alton. We have Alton's back in my family tree, like a bunch of Alton's. We appreciate y'all to the moon and back. And if you're not yet a patron, you're missing out. Patrons of our show get every episode, ad-free, at least a day early, sometimes more, plus tons of extra content, like patrons-only episodes and hilarious post-show discussions. And once you join the $5 and up categories,

you get even more cool stuff. A free sticker, a raddy, amel pin or fridge magnet while supplies last virtual events with Katie and me, and we're always looking for new stuff to do for you. So if you can, come join us at patreon.com slash true crime campfire. For eight years, we've been asking the same question over and over again. How did this happen? My name's Mandy. And I'm Melissa, and we're the host of Moms and Mysteries, the True Crime podcast with over 55 million downloads. We're two Florida moms who are obsessed with mysteries. Each week we do deep dives into fascinating true crime stories. We cover everything from infamous cases like Casey Anthony to the bizarre and complex crimes right here in our home state, like the shocking murder

of FSU professor Dan Markell. We bring you the facts, but with warmth and width you'd only get from two friends who have been hooked on mysteries since childhood. Join us for new episodes of Moms and Mysteries every Tuesday and Thursday. Listen to Moms and Mysteries on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcast. Reality TV is messy. Pop culture. is louder than ever. And the internet. Completely unhinged. Welcome to Roxanne and Chantelle, the podcast where cousins Roxanne and Chantel break down reality TV, celebrity drama and the stories everyone's texting about. We recap the shows, spill the headlines, and sit down with the stars themselves. No filter. No boring takes. Just the tea. New episodes every week. If it's trending,

we're talking about it. This is Roxanne and Chantel. Let's get into it. Thank you.