Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly - Terry talks with a Cannabis Producer

Episode Date: February 5, 2024

Recently, we produced an episode on cannabis marketing. With cannabis legalization, it’s a brand-new, challenging marketing category.As a result of that episode, I asked the Ontario Cannabis Store to introduce me to an actual cannabis producer.I wanted to know how a cannabis producer becomes licensed, how a craft cannabis company competes with the big companies, and how a small cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category.In this bonus episode, I talk to Wallace McDonald-Rogers. He is the founder of Primeau Craft Cannabis. I think you’ll find his answers very interesting - and some of them are surprising. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly. As you may know, we've been producing a lot of bonus episodes while under the influences on hiatus. They're called the Beatleology Interviews, where I talk to people who knew the Beatles, work with them, love them, and the authors who write about them. Well, the Beatleology Interviews have become a hit, so we are spinning it out to be a standalone podcast series. You've already heard conversations with people like actors Mark Hamill, Malcolm McDowell, and Beatles confidant Astrid Kershaw. But coming up, I talk to May Pang, who dated John Lennon in the mid-70s. I talk to double fantasy guitarist Earl Slick, Apple Records creative director John Kosh. I'll be talking to Jan Hayworth,

who designed the Sgt. Pepper album cover. Very cool. And I'll talk to singer Dion, who is one of only five people still alive who were on the Sgt. Pepper cover. And two of those people were Beatles. The stories they tell are amazing. So thank you for making this series such a success. And please, do me a favor, follow the Beatleology interviews on your podcast app. You don't even have to be a huge Beatles fan, you just have to love storytelling. Subscribe now and don't miss a single beat. This is an apostrophe podcast production. Your teeth look whiter than no nose. You're not you when you're hungry.

You're a good hand with all the teeth. You're under the influence with Terry O'Reilly. Recently, we produced an episode of Under the Influence on cannabis marketing. When it was all done, I wanted to talk to an actual cannabis producer to understand how they approach their work and how they market their products in a very restricted category. It's early days in the legalized cannabis world, so licensed cannabis growers are trailblazers in the industry. I asked OCS, the Ontario cannabis store, if they could connect me with a trailblazer. They introduced me to Wallace McDonald Rogers. This bonus episode is presented

by OCS and ACAST Creative. Wallace McDonald Rogers is in his mid-30s. He's a tall guy with a big welcoming smile. And it happened to be his birthday the day we talked. We met at a recording studio not far from his farm in Bellwood, Ontario, near Guelph. Wallace came to cannabis via his family. There was no stigma around cannabis in his household. A few years ago, his mother was in a serious car accident and she used cannabis to help her through her recovery. Wallace is sitting across from me wearing a t-shirt that says Primo Craft Cannabis. It's a family business run from a family farm. We're all family. So on my farm, I've got my cousin Tyler, you know, he's a young up and coming and I've been teaching him some of my growing techniques.

And I'm hoping one day as we continue to expand that he can take over some of the roles that I'm doing. My father-in-law, Steve, Steve worked at Sheridan Nurseries, one of the local nurseries here for over 25 years. So Steve came in with a green thumb. Steve's farmed from New Zealand all over the place. Like he's a phenomenal grower. But yeah, Steve, my cousin, Tyler, Tyler's grandmother is my great aunt Claudette. In fact, Claudette's actually at our farm right now. We've just got a crop off and everybody's trimming. So Claudette's sitting there right now and she's a workhorse. She's 76 and she's sitting there trimming everything up and she loves cannabis. And I could just see it on her face. Every time

she picks up a new flower to go and trim, she's going, oh my, this is nice. And so I've got a lot of the people in my family, very much the women of my family come together. Besides Wallace's father-in-law and cousin Tyler, the Primo Cannabis workforce is very much made up of the women in his family. His mom, his aunties, his great aunt, his sisters, and his wife. As a matter of fact, the name Primo has special meaning for Wallace. So Primo is my mom's maiden name. When I was sitting down and trying to come up with a name for the company, I started to think about who do I want to represent,

who do I want to be as a licensed producer, and I really decided that the best thing that I can do is represent my mom. I wanted to name the company Primo because I wanted to represent her and show her that, you know, like I truly appreciate. I grew up in a single parent household and my mom was everything for me. And, you know, even when we first got licensed, she was the one when it was just myself. I can't afford staff. I have to do everything.

We're craft, right? We're a very small family run. She was the one to roll up her sleeves, come out, bust out the scissors. And we got 50 kilos to trim up and she would be sitting there right there with me. And, you know, I love her to death. And so that was the reason why I wanted to name the company after her and go, Primo is who we are. That's the feeling that I get. And naming the company Primo is even more meaningful now for Wallace. My mom's right there. She's trimming with us. She actually, it's kind of taken a little bit of a step back.

I'm going to say maybe like a year ago, she got diagnosed with stage four cancer. And since then, she hasn't been able to come out and actually work the way she does. But she's with me in spirit. And every time I go to these shows and I do expos or anything, I have a computer that plays right next to me. So I have my mom trimming. I took a video of her trimming up some of our flour. And so I have that playing with me. So she's always with me in spirit because like I said, we're very family run. It's me, my family. If it wasn't for them, I couldn't do this. Wallace is also a garlic farmer, and going to farmers' markets with his produce has prepared him for the cannabis industry. One of the things he'd like to see in the future is to move towards

more of a farmer's market, because Wallace likes to talk to the public about his farm, how he grows his cannabis, and what makes his craft cannabis unique. So it depends on what they're looking for. Some people are here just to dip their pinky toe into the water, and some people don't even want to smell the cannabis. They just want to come over and just slowly break the ice. Other people who have been part of the culture want to come over. They want to know everything. How do you grow? What do you grow in? How long have you been growing? What's your story? What's your deal?

What's up with this flower? Where did you get it? How long have you had it? They want to know everything about it. I like taking my time and I break it down. In fact, we just had Kind Winter Fair last week in Toronto and I had 2,000 people come through our booth and Primo had one of the biggest lineups at that show because I wanted to take my time

and make sure everybody who does come up to my booth doesn't feel rushed, doesn't feel like I'm going, here it is, this is who we are, see you later. I cracked every jar open. This is this cultivar, this is this cultivar. We grow in organic cocoa, no pesticides. You know, I use no plant growth regulators. This is how I do it.

I was a farmer. I just wanted to bring those sustainable practices back over. The term craft is very I do it. I was a farmer. I just wanted to bring those sustainable practices back over. The term craft is very important to Wallace. He takes great pride in his process. He doesn't rush anything. He doesn't cut corners. He wants to produce a product that he can stand behind. If I look at the standard definition of craft, it's hang dry, hand trim, hand package. You produce less than 10,000 kilos a year. For us, craft is a little bit different. I produce maybe 250 to 400 kilos a year, much, much smaller.

I also hand water off my plants. So I go around and I hand water everything. Craft is, it's really like putting a paintbrush to canvas. It's being in control of every stroke of every aspect. It's no machinery involved. Another thing we use is geothermal systems. So rather than a conventional, like I'm in the country, so we don't have natural gas. So it was either furnace oil or propane. And so I thought, you know what? I'd rather use a ground source heating, even our wells, all of our water gets recycled. The cocoa that we use, I recycle all

that. It goes right back into my farm fields, you know, or my gardens. I just want to put out a product that I can stand behind and go, you know what? I represented my family to the best of my ability. I put out the best product that I could do. I didn't take any shortcuts. I didn't use any plant growth regulators. I didn't use pesticides. I grew as sustainably as I could. And I tried to be as local as possible. Wallace kept using a phrase I was intrigued by. He said, eat local, shop local, smoke local. He wants people to support their local economy.

People go to their local hardware stores and their local mom and pop stores. He wants them to also buy cannabis that has been grown locally. If you're able to actually go 10, 15 minutes down the road, like you produce your cannabis and it's all produced 10, 15 minutes down the road, you feel more of a connection. It's like our honey. Like when farming, you'd always want to buy your local honey because it's got the local pollen, right?

So it's one of those things that, you know, by being local, there's so many benefits for the ecology, for the environment, and for the economics of everything. It's just so much more of a lesser impact on the earth as it is. Being a legal producer is very important to Wallace. It means the product he grows is safe for consumption. You know what you're getting, you know how it's been grown and produced, which is very different from buying cannabis on the street. When you purchase your cannabis from a local retailer, you know who's producing your cannabis. You know that there's no plant growth regulator, so there's nothing in there that is unsafe for consumption. Whereas in the alternative, you wouldn't be able to guarantee that, right? And

so I feel like that is such a great piece that we have in this industry, this legal industry that we have is that you know that it's safe for consumption. And moving beyond that, if you find a company that, hey, you really like their cannabis and it's safe for consumption, you can now feel confident to go like, who are these people? What's their story? And then you know who you're supporting, who the profits are going to. Everything that I produce gets taxed. And so that's another thing as well. When you purchase legal cannabis, but if we look at probably the statistics of how

much money has been generated from regulatory fees to excise duty taxes to HST, it's a big chunk of change going back to Canadians. While the federal government is responsible for regulating the cannabis industry as a whole, including the production of cannabis, provinces and territories are responsible for determining retail and distribution channels. The Ontario Cannabis Store, or OCS, is a crown agency wholly owned by the province of Ontario. It reports to the Ministry of Finance. OCS is the largest centralized wholesale cannabis organization in the world.

It provides access to tested, traceable, and legal recreational cannabis for adults 19 years of age or older in Ontario and is the sole wholesaler to nearly 1,700 authorized and regulated retail cannabis stores in the province. I wanted to know what kind of support OCS gives to growers like Wallace. I had worked with other provincial bodies and let me tell you how great OCS is. OCS has been, you know, like really they're the reason why we're still producing. A lot of growers are now kind of shifting towards more of an international market. We're starting to see that more and more come out where exporting seems to be on the up. I'm more on the opposite spectrum where I want to be in my local economy, right? Like I want to be supporting my local and OCS has been phenomenal for that in terms

of allowing us to launch with different products, being open, the communication, even the grants that they offer. There's some shows where like we're a BIPOC company. So like my family, we're Métis and I've also got indigenous status, right? We're Algonquin and Iroquois. So being able to actually be represented at some of these shows that conventionally we wouldn't be able to afford to be able to go to these shows. And then OCS puts out these sponsorship grants that they allow for a greater representation. It's phenomenal. I mean, not a lot of people are doing that. And the fact that they allow you to

set your own pricing, they have phenomenal feedback and that they really do promote local Ontario producers, you couldn't ask for a better partnership. Cannabis has only been legal since 2018, so growers like Wallace are true trailblazers. While the government has provided a playbook, growers still have to find a way where there previously was no way. And to stand out, you have to bring fresh thinking to a highly regulated industry. Trailblazing to me, it's being able to critically think and it's being

able to act differently outside of the box. So if you follow everything everybody else is doing, then chances are you're not being a trailblazer. So imagine you're standing at a big thick forest, there's no path in front of you. You have to forge your own path. And that means that you need to be able to take the steps forward by yourself and be able to have that drive, that determination, and to critically think, is this the right path that I'm taking? But the beautiful thing about being a trailblazer is that when you look behind you, that path is being set for others to follow. And so it's a really nice community feeling when you're able to do something differently and realize that other people are going, wow, that's a great idea. And they're starting to

move that too. Because when I first got licensed was 2021, there was not a lot of paths being made in the forest. It was very much dog eat dog. You've got to figure it out yourself. I'm starting to see that the industry is starting to come together. People are doing collabs. People are starting to work together and see how each other are doing it because the beginning, you got to remember, was very corporate. The very first people who got licensed in Canada were mega corporations. There was the huge, huge companies, but today we're not seeing these big, big companies. We're actually seeing them starting to scale down and we're seeing more and more of the legacy producers coming out.

And they're very much small batch craft and just people, right? Like they're regular people. They're not corporate. I was intrigued to ask Wallace how he markets his cannabis because it's such a highly regulated industry. But the best advertising for Primo cannabis is Wallace himself. He goes to cannabis expos, he talks to retailers, he has conversations with bud tenders. It's his passion that sells his product. So I feel like how I can best market

myself with all the restraints that we have is to go to the shows, meet the people face-to-face, shake hands, say hi, smoke some bud together and really come together and celebrate the culture. And so by doing that and adding the additional information, because people want to know like, okay, great. You've got this product. It's dried flour. It's 3.5 grams. There's nothing else on the label. I like telling people how many days I'm in flour. How long have I flushed it for? What kind of lights am I using? You know, like that we hand trim, we hang dry, we hand pack.

I like telling people that Primo is my mom's maiden name because I hope it resonates with you and that you're able to go, you know what? I wish I had a company I can name it after my mom too. You know, and it seems like this guy's really passionate about what he's doing. And the fact that I am passionate about it is also one of my marketing things because I love what I do. And so I feel like when I talk to people and interact,

they pick up on that and they go, if this guy loves cannabis so much, I've got to try his flower because I don't know what's going on with him, but he really seems happy and content. That passion has led Wallace to create a new collaboration with another producer and package it in a completely new, fresh way. Yeah, this is super exciting.

This collab in spring, I'm going to have two 3.5 gram jars together in a beautiful sleeve. The very first time I went into the LCBO, my father-in-law is a big whiskey drinker. He loves his bisque whiskey. So when you buy these whiskey bottles, they come in a nice sleeve. And I thought to myself, God, is that ever a beautiful packaging? And I found out OCS was looking for these craft samplers. So they were looking for two 3.5s together. So you would have two jars connected together. Then I had to start to brainstorm, how am I going to sell these two jars together? What kind of packaging am I going to use? What's available out there? I don't want you to have to pick between them. I want you to be able to try them both. And so we came up with

this craft sampler that are going to be sold together. And then I took it one step further. I added another one. I approached a micro cultivator called trees and Ben's the grower for trees, phenomenal grower. He's a micro and traditionally with micros in the industry, they produce some of the best cannabis. They're local again, but they don't have the big license. They don't have the processing license. So what ends up happening is they do B2B. They sell their cannabis to other licensed producers who then pay them a couple dollars a gram. Here it is, you know, and that's their end of their relationship. The big guy takes their cannabis, puts it out under their own brand name. People go, wow, this cannabis is phenomenal.

However, they didn't actually grow that cannabis. That cannabis was grown by one of the micros. And so I'm going to be doing with trees, we're doing a craft collab. And it's the first time in the industry where we're doing a craft collab where it's going to be fair trade. So trees and I are doing a profit split.

I'm not purchasing his cannabis, putting it out under primo. I'm allowing him to pick his own cultivar, pick whatever stuff you want, put your best foot forward. And trees just like us is family owned grower owned. He's going to put a jar out. I'm going to put a jar out. They get sold together. And so I really wanted to do something different in the industry where we can offer a different format, but we can also offer something that is a true collab with two different craft growers coming together as two different companies and putting out something that, again, is here to celebrate the culture. When I asked Wallace what his 10-year goal was for Primo Craft Cannabis, his answer wasn't about money. He wants to create a great brand that stands for something. It's funny.

Conventionally, you would say, oh, I'd love to see it expand. I'd love to see it grow. I'd love to see a whole bunch of money coming in. But for me, I just want to have brand recognition. And when I say about brand recognition, again, O'Neill from Cannabis Related told me it's not about the Nike swoop.

That's not the brand. It's how you feel when you put those Nike shoes on. And so I want to have my local, you know, in my home province, when they try my flower and when they hear my name, they get that same feeling that I get when I think about my brand, which is, you know, family values and putting out a safe product and pushing for the public interest. And so again, the money would be great. I mean, don't get me wrong. Farms are expensive. However, you know, the most important thing for me is getting that brand recognition where

people try out our product or they hear about us and go, oh, Primo. Yeah, that's Wallace's brand. And not so much even about, you know, the fame that that's Wallace, but getting the same feelings that I get and also being able to go like they promoted dignified consumption from day one. They were part of the culture. The culture is alive and that we're one of the ones who are celebrating it and driving this cannabis consumption culture. I'd love to see it just as strong as it is today, 10 years from now and even stronger.

I asked Wallace what his greatest accomplishment has been. When he was going through the process to become a licensed producer, he did it all himself, just one man and a laptop. But when he eventually got together with other producers, he learned that not everyone went through the process alone. We had a gala last week. Phenomenal event. Everybody came together in the industry and you were able to kind of smooze and network and everything. There was that one point in the night where I'm standing outside with a few other licensed producers.

And it was one of those times where we're kind of, again, going, oh, what are you doing? How are you doing? What's new? And I didn't realize this, but I had done my whole application to become a licensed producer myself with a laptop, one man and a laptop that I swear to God, that's exactly how it happened. I thought everybody else was doing the same thing. And so when I see them, you know, we're talking, I didn't realize

to let this conversation at the gala, everybody in the industry uses consultants. They have teams of people fast tracking these applications. They've got 10, 15 people, legal departments. They're all, you know, interpreting the regulations. They're going crazy, you know, developing these SOPs, these standardized operating procedures. I didn't realize, I thought everybody had done what I had did, which was one man in a laptop and it, you know, and you're just grinding at it and you won't take no for an answer and you just want to go and you have the drive and determination. So when I heard that, it was funny.

I was, you know, I brought my wife with me and we were on the way home and she said, you know, like you really should pat yourself on the back for this. And again, I'm not, I feel like I'm too, I almost hate saying I'm too humble to do it because now I don't sound humble saying it, but I haven't really had the chance to look back. And now that I have, I feel like that was a really big accomplishment getting this licensing by myself with limited next to no resources. I mean, I did the, uh, the blueprints to the drawings, to the standardized operating procedures. I pulled myself up from my

bootstraps. I got my quality assurance certification. I had my bachelor of sciences. I was ready to roll. I really was a one man wrecking team and I got it done. And I just, I feel like it's an important story to mention here now, because if I can do it, you can do it. And there's a lot of people I feel might be out there on the legacy side who aren't, you know, want to get in to the legal market, but haven't made that transition or feel like it's unattainable for them. And I want to tell them that it's not unattainable. You have the drive and determination,

if you have those affirmations, those beliefs, don't take no for an answer. You can do it because I did it. Wallace told me an interesting backstory. He was at a big cannabis event in downtown Toronto, held at a big convention center, and all the legal cannabis producers were there. But they weren't allowed to consume cannabis at the event,

even though the entire event was all about cannabis. So he hopes for a future where people can experience dignified consumption. You have to leave the event to go stand on the sidewalk 50 yards away because the venue itself doesn't really, you know, they'll host the cannabis event because they want the money and the revenue, but they don't actually want any cannabis on site. And so if you're going to actually be part of this culture, which is cannabis consumption, and you're doing it legit, right? Like you're on a legal side,

like you're purchasing your cannabis legally, you could do all that, but you could do it down the road on the sidewalk, you know, by an old alleyway. And it's just such an undignified thing. And so Primo to me was supposed to be about embracing the culture, being with the people, starting from the grassroots, which is from the bottom up. And I feel like that's why my brand has actually resonated with so many people in the industries because I'm there with them, you know, like it's a cultural thing. So I really want to promote that dignified consumption. And I feel like it's getting there, you know, but we're not there just yet, but it's moving towards there. That's the whole thing about the industry, the legal industry, it's moving in the right

direction. And as you can tell by listening to Wallace McDonald Rogers, the legal cannabis market is populated by a vibrant community that takes a lot of pride in producing high-quality cannabis. If you'd like to hear more trailblazer stories and learn more about how they're blazing a trail to safe consumption, go to ocs.ca slash trailblazers. Again, thanks to OCS and ACAST Creative for making this bonus podcast possible. I'm Terry O'Reilly. This episode was recorded in the Terrastream Mobile Recording Studio and at Escarpment Sound. Producer, Debbie O'Reilly.

Apostrophe Sound Engineer, Jeff Devine. Escarpment Sound Engineer, Brian Hewson. Under the influence theme by Ari Posner and Ian Lefevre. Tunes provided by APM Music. Follow me on social at Terry O'Influence. This podcast is powered by ACAST. See you next time.