Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly - The Beatlology Interviews: Astrid Kirchherr

Episode Date: July 20, 2024

Astrid Kirchherr holds a special place in the history of the Beatles. She took the famous Hamburg-era photos of the Beatles in their formative years, she inspired their “moptop” hairstyle, and she happened to fall in love with Stuart Sutcliffe, the fifth member of the Beatles. Her story is compelling, and her love of the Beatles, as friends, comes through in every word. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly. As you may know, we've been producing a lot of bonus episodes while under the influences on hiatus. They're called the Beatleology Interviews, where I talk to people who knew the Beatles, work with them, love them, and the authors who write about them. Well, the Beatleology Interviews have become a hit, so we are spinning it out to be a standalone podcast series. You've already heard conversations with people like actors Mark Hamill, Malcolm McDowell, and Beatles confidant Astrid Kershaw. But coming up, I talk to May Pang, who dated John Lennon in the mid-70s. I talk to double fantasy guitarist Earl Slick, Apple Records creative director John Kosh. I'll be talking to Jan Hayworth,

who designed the Sgt. Pepper album cover. Very cool. And I'll talk to singer Dion, who is one of only five people still alive who were on the Sgt. Pepper cover. And two of those people were Beatles. The stories they tell are amazing. So thank you for making this series such a success. And please, do me a favor, follow the Beatleology interviews on your podcast app. You don't even have to be a huge Beatles fan, you just have to love storytelling.

Subscribe now, and don't miss a single beat. This is an apostrophe podcast production. Beetleology. I hear the... I hear the... I hear the... I hear the... Beetleology. Back in the late 90s, I was the co-founder of a magazine called Beetleology. It was a magazine dedicated to collectors of Beatles memorabilia.

Because Beatle collectibles can be so expensive, costing anything from hundreds of dollars to hundreds of thousands of dollars. And collectors like me never knew what anything was really worth at any given time. So the magazine talked to top collectors and auction houses, as well as celebrity collectors and people who knew and worked with the Beatles. And we told stories about those people, the things they collected, and what they were worth. Those interviews stayed in my office drawer for 25 years.

So we thought it would be interesting to dust them off. We met Astrid Kirscher back in 1999. She was on a tour to promote her new book. It was a big two-volume set titled Hamburg Days, containing her stories and photographs of the Beatles

from their earliest days playing in Hamburg, Germany. It's an extremely beautiful book, and it was published by Genesis Publications, who produce gorgeous, collectible, coffee-table quality books. Diehard Beatle fans know all about Astrid Kerscher. But if you're just a casual Beatles fan, you may not know just how important she was to the early Beatles

and how she shaped their image. Astrid was just 22 years old when she met the Beatles in Hamburg, Germany. There was a demand for British rock and roll groups in the bars there, and the Beatles' then-manager, Alan Williams, booked them long-term gigs in a couple of bars in the notorious Reeperbawn Red Light District of Hamburg, where they sometimes played for eight hours a night for months at a time.

Hamburg was where the Beatles paid their dues and gelled as a tight band. Malcolm Gladwell calls it the 10,000 hour principle that in order to master any craft you must spend 10,000 hours doing it.

It was there at the Kaiser Keller Club that a young photographer named Astrid Kirscher first saw the Beatles and it was all because of an argument. She had quarreled with her then boyfriendboyfriend, Klaus Vorman, a fellow art student.

Klaus had stormed out of her house in a huff and ended up walking past the Kaiserkeller. He heard rock and roll blasting through its doors, so he wandered in and sat down. The rough-looking five-man band on the stage was the Beatles. Klaus said John was screaming with all his heart and soul,

Paul bounced around like a rubber ball, Pete Best hammered on his drum kit, George grinned his cheeky, crooked, boyish grin, and a bass player named Stuart Sutcliffe seemed cool and sophisticated. They had an infectious energy, they knew how to rock, and they were very funny on stage.

Klaus says they were irresistible, and not just for the girls. The next night, he dragged Astrid and a friend named Jürgen Vollmer back to see the band Between sets, the three of them cautiously approached the Beatles and started a conversation While Astrid and her friends became fascinated with the band The Beatles became equally fascinated by them. Astrid, Klaus, and Jürgen were Germans influenced by French culture. They dressed all in black, but with incredible style. The Beatles thought they were exotic. Astrid was particularly attracted to Stuart Sutcliffe.

She broke off with Klaus and started seeing Stuart and photographing him Not long after, they got engaged The Beatles loved Astrid's photography and asked her to photograph them Thus began the only known photography from those formative years in the Beatles' timeline. They're considered the definitive images of the group before they attained massive worldwide fame. Astrid also taught them how to dress on stage. As mentioned in the fabulous new book, Fashioning the Beatles, by Deirdre Kelly, Astrid had a feminizing influence on them. She took them to shops and showed them clothes they should wear.

Sometimes the clothes were less masculine and more interesting, more stylish. Astrid did one more thing. She inspired their beetle hairstyle. Before meeting Astrid, the band had a brill cream slick back hairstyle, mimicking their idols Elvis Presley and Tony Curtis. But they loved Astrid's hairstyle. It was different.

There was no grease involved, and she combed her hair down over her forehead. She gave Stuart the same hairstyle. George loved it and asked for the same cut. Soon, all the Beatles, except Pete Best, adopted the look. They also let their hair grow over their collars. In the brush-cut era of the early 1960s, it was radical. When the Beatles got back to the tough streets of Liverpool, their new clothes and hairstyle attracted some dangerous looks.

So much so, the band momentarily considered going back to their old style. But they stuck with it. It would become their signature look. As George Harrison later said, Astrid was totally responsible for our whole image. Suffice it to say,

Astrid Kirscher is a very important chapter in the Beatles' history. Her photographs chronicle the early days of the world's most famous band, she influenced their style, and her love of the Beatles showed through in everything she said. We sat down with Astrid back in 1999 in New Jersey, just as her new book was launching. I asked her how the book came about. Well, it's a long, long time ago, about ten years, that Brian Roilands and Ulf Kruger, who's my agent in Hamburg

and a very, very good friend, had the idea to get a book together from the days the Beatles came to Hamburg first. And they were unknown and just good friends. And we were all very excited. came to Hamburg first, and they were unknown and just good friends. The book is a two-volume set. The first book features Astrid's incredible photography from that period. The second volume contains Klaus's paintings of recreated moments that were never captured by photography,

but fun and interesting moments as remembered by Astrid, Klaus and Paul McCartney. Well, that is why I'm so pleased about the Hamburg days, because Klaus and I were sitting together thinking of situations where it would have been great having a camera. You know, like in the club when it was nearly morning and the light was all nearly sunshine and people were sitting around in the dark asleep and they were sitting on stage half asleep playing.

And you saw it in the book, these situations were absolutely wonderful. But of course I didn't took my camera with me. And that was the whole idea, that Klaus did pictures of situations we have been with the boys where we didn't have a camera, like when John went to sleep in his breakfast, you know. So that is what makes me so happy, that at least situations which we both remember even now are on paper to see for people. George Harrison wrote the foreword to the book. I asked Astrid how that came about. Well, as simple as that, we asked him.

And he's our friend. He's one of my best friends. And he said, yeah, why not? George was the Beatle Astrid was closest to. When she was first considering doing this book, she reached out to George, Paul, and Yoko to ask for their blessing. So I asked George and Paul, what do you think? And Yoko, can for their blessing. So I asked George and Paul, what do you think, and Yoko, can I do that? And George

just wrote me a letter, do whatever you want, sweetheart. At least they pay you for it this time. So George always took care of me as far as money is concerned, because he knows I'm such a silly idiot.

Astrid loved the Beatles. They were her friends. So she took photos of them, just for fun, just for them. They were never really used for publicity purposes back then. With one exception. Well, you know, that's so strange, I did it because I love their faces and I love them as friends. So I just did them for fun and gave them to them. And they thought, oh, yeah, great.

Maybe we get in the papers, you know, with pictures like that, that size. They will be all impressed. And of course it happened, if you remember, there was a little paper called Mercy Beat, and also a friend of Stuart's and John was the editor, Bill Harry, and he saw the pictures and just did it, you know, so. In the Beatles anthology series, George Harrison notes that the famous Robert Freeman black and white photo on the cover of the LP With the Beatles was actually inspired by Astrid's photography. I always wondered because Freeman, I always admired his work. I think he did fantastic pictures. And when I saw the cover, I thought, what's that all about?

That's not Bob Freeman. That is weird. It looks like I've done them. But I never thought about it again. And then I saw the anthology, and George was talking about how these pictures came together. So now I know. Wow. The album with The Beatles contains a first for the Fab Four.

What was it? Answer after this break. The album, with The Beatles, contained three George Harrison vocals, including his very first released solo composition, Don't Bother Me. Astrid's photos of The Beatles are all in stunning black and white, which was always her preference. I think you can experiment much more with a black and white picture, especially when you do develop the negatives yourself. So that's a fact, number one. Number two is you can play with shadow and light much easier and much nicer in a more dramatic way,

which in the 60s or when I started to become a photographer, I was influenced by French photographers and French movies, for example, Jean Cocteau's movie, who were really extremely black and white. And I thought it gave a face for example a kind of different dramatic atmosphere and you could play with light and darkness and create a situation within a face for me much easier to handle. And in the 60s, color photography wasn't like it is now, you know? And even though if I would take pictures now, I always would prefer black and white. There are other photos in the book, taken a little while later, with the Beatles wearing suits,

a very different look from the leather they wore in Astrid's earlier shots. Beatles manager Brian Epstein contracted Astrid to take those pictures. Well, he was a very good friend of mine, and he just said, we need some decent pictures, you know, because then they changed their image into suits and looking smart. And he said, said well they're going to come to Hamburg would you do me a favor and do some decent ones you know so I did and I never really liked them you know the studio ones to me there's nothing behind it if you compare these pictures with a portrait of John and George I did in my attic at home or on the

fairground there's power and strength and sadness in their faces and the whole rock and roll what it meant to me you know but these pictures just to me me, they are flat. There is a face of Paul McCartney, but there's not a face of my friend Paul on it. So it's okay as being put in the book to maybe let people see the difference. But they were never, ever my favorite pictures the photos Astrid took of the early Beatles were missing one important later ingredient

namely Ringo Starr Pete Best was the drummer then Astrid knew Ringo but he was with another band at the time I knew Ringo when he was playing with Rory Storm and the Hurricanes. And because it went like Rory was on for three quarters of an hour, and then the Beatles were on, so it kept going on and on and on. So when Ringo was not playing, he used to sit with us, and Rory, of course, because I liked him very much. And so we just became friendly. But I was never close to Ringo as I was to the rest of the boys.

It's a funny thing. Beatle fans want to know every single detail about the band. Every small, critical and pedestrian thing. It seems that everywhere the Beatles lived or played or streets they walked across are considered holy ground. Yet in Hamburg, where the Beatles had their most important formative time, it barely registers on the radar. Well, there is a museum in Germany, in Bremen.

They bought some of my work. But, you know, it's strange, the need of people to know about the Beatles. It's much more over here than in Germany. And my own town, Hamburg, where the Beatles, the Beatles you know started it doesn't interest them at all no they didn't even have an exhibition of the Beatles in Hamburg which would be great you know but there's just a little sign outside the former Kaiserkeller where it says the Beatles used to play here. And when George was in Hamburg he of course drove through the Rieferbahn and said there it

is the sign that we played here but that's about all. Paul McCartney had a small hand in the book as well. Klaus asked Paul to help him reminisce about those early days and even sketch a few memories that Klaus would later paint. Well, Klaus asked him to do that. If you've seen it in the back of this book, and Paul wrote about how he admired Klaus' work. You saw the drawing in there. When Klaus went to see him a couple of months ago,

or before they got the book together, maybe six months ago. And they were both reminiscing, how was that? And Paul helped him and said, give me a pencil. And I think I remember it was like that. Remarkably, Astrid never thought to sell her work back then. Many of her photos were used without her knowledge or permission on bootleg albums. She did it all for love, not money. I never sold anything of that.

There was a lot of my negatives being stolen. I was such a silly girl, you know. If you would have came up about 30 years and said, I need the negative to print, I would say, yeah, here it is. So, and all my drawings I had of John, you know, I just gave it to people because I was so innocent and thought, no, they wouldn't do anything with it. So that is why there's a lot of my stuff being stolen. Astrid was fond of the photos she took of the band, and especially of the time they spent together. But she never thought much of the photos and didn't think anyone would be particularly interested in them.

As a matter of fact, how Astrid stored them says it all. Well, I had them under my bed, you know. Or I had them on a shelf and my cat had a little go at it, you know. But then Ulf met me and said, well, where are your negatives? Which bank and all that? And I said, what do you mean?

Which bank safe? And I just went under my bed and grabbed a little paper bag and I said, here you are, a plastic bag. And he got the shock of his life, you know. I asked Astrid which one of all her amazing photos is her personal favorite. She didn't hesitate for a second. There's one shot of Stuart which it's shown on the book Stuart. It's the front

page where he's got all the hair down his face and all freckles. That is one of my favorite shots and from George and John standing in the attic where Stuart used to work. And John is sitting down and George is standing behind him because that means so much to me because George was always the little one. We've got to protect George. He was only 17. And then when I took that picture, you can see the strength in his eyes and the way John just looked sad and lonely. And George is standing behind him, you know, like, I'm the grown-up now. I look after you. Whenever I see that picture, because I do love George dearly, it gives me the shivers.

In such a short time, this boy has grown like unbelievable. As I mentioned earlier, Astrid fell in love with Stuart Sutcliffe. They became engaged, and Stuart left the Beatles to be with her. He was a painter and enrolled in the Hamburg College of Art. In February of 1962, he collapsed in the middle of an art class, complaining of a severe headache. After collapsing again in April, he was rushed

to hospital, but died in the ambulance. The cause of death was a brain hemorrhage. Astrid was devastated. John Lennon, Stuart's best friend, was shattered. I asked Astrid if Stuart's work as a painter had influenced her work as a photographer, or vice versa.

Stuart was amazed and very interested in the black and white things I did. And when I explained it, why? Because he was always searching for new things. He was a real fanatic. When we met first and he started painting in my house, he did the real colors, you know, the red and the blue and the yellow. And then the last pictures he did before he died, they were black and silver.

So in a way, we did influence one another. Earlier, we mentioned that Astrid's photos were never used on any Beatle albums, which seems so odd in hindsight. But there were two exceptions besides the photo that appeared in the Mercy Beat newspaper. She did the inner sleeve for George Harrison's solo Wonderwall music LP in 1968.

And years later, in 1995 and 96, when Klaus Vorman designed the covers of the Beatles' anthology albums, he used some of Astrid's photography. Surprisingly, it would be the first and only time her photos were ever used on an official Beatle album. When Astrid Kerscher looked back on that time, so many years later, she didn't talk about the famous Beatles. She talked about them as her friends, people she loved, and what she was grateful for.

Well, most of all, I'd be thankful for their friendship, for the things they taught me, what it's like to be disciplined, what it is like to play or work for 12 hours every day, and being that young without mom and dad in a different country, and things we shared together, you know, sharing to grow up, that is the most important thing to me.

And the love we shared between us, and the giving and taking, the inspiring one another, that is what counts for me and of course their beautiful music the way they grew up even though I wasn't with them all the time but from a distance I saw the change they made when I listened to the music of George for example or John

and that's what I'm thankful for. Astrid Kirscher passed away in 2020 at the age of 81. She played such an important role in the lives of the early Beatles. Her unique photography of the band is historic, her influence on their image indelible. yet she lived a quiet, humble life operating a small photography shop in Hamburg. George Harrison kept in touch with her until his passing in 1999. When we met, Astrid was in her 60s, still beautiful, still stylish. Her love of John, Paul, George, Ringo, Pete, and Stuart was still so palpable from all those years ago. I'm Terry O'Reilly. This special bonus episode was recorded in the Terrastream Mobile Recording Studio.

Director, Callie O'Reilly. Producer, Debbie O'Reilly. Chief Sound Engineer, Jeff Devine. Tunes provided by APM Music. Follow me on social at Terry O'Influence. This podcast is powered by ACAST. Tunes provided by APM Music. Follow me on social at Terry O. Influence. This podcast is powered by ACAST. You may have heard on the news that visits to Ontario food banks are at an all-time high.

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