We Need To Talk with Paul C. Brunson - Anna Saccone on The SACCONEJOLYs, Motherhood And Raising Her Trans Daughter in the Public Eye

Episode Date: November 11, 2025

In her first ever solo interview, YouTube creator and mum of four Anna Saccone opens up about the truth behind The SACCONEJOLYs, the hidden pain behind her picture-perfect life, and the moments that almost broke her. Content warning: This episode includes discussion of eating disorders and miscarriage. For the first time, Anna shares the real story behind her marriage, her relationship with Jonathan, and the intense pressure of raising a family online while facing constant criticism and scrutiny. She also speaks candidly about her struggles with bulimia, body image, and identity - and how she’s finally learning to live life on her own terms. Anna shares: ◽ Why she wasn’t truly happy on her wedding day ◽ How her father’s obsession with appearance impacted her ◽ How she built a family-vlog channel that earned tens of thousands a month ◽ What it’s really like raising a trans child in the public eye ◽ How she feels about the negative comments ◽ How returning to school became her way of reclaiming her voice This conversation includes discussion of eating disorders and baby loss. We’ve included support links below, along with the organisation Anna mentions in the episode, which provides resources for transgender healthcare: Beat Eating Disorders - https://g2ul0.app.link/gHK6cjr3ZRb Tommy’s: https://g2ul0.app.link/yiLgVePdnVb Sands: https://g2ul0.app.link/1c7K7WVdnVb Anne Healthcare - https://g2ul0.app.link/BWEMiCQBbYb  Follow me here: https://www.instagram.com/needtotalk  https://www.tiktok.com/@weneedtotalkpod  (00:00) Intro (01:31) Why Anna Decided to Do This Podcast Without Jonathan (02:39) Anna's Experience Growing Up in Baltimore (05:46) How That Affected Anna's Relationship With Her Dad (05:47) Moving From Baltimore to Cork (12:15) The Beginnings of Anna's Eating Disorder (14:28) Meeting Jonathan & Quitting University (17:05) What Anna Initially Saw in Jonathan (23:43) How Anna and Jonathan Started on YouTube (28:05) Surprise Message From Jonathan (30:01) Anna's Struggle With Bulimia (32:48) Anna's Advice for Anyone Going Through an Eating Disorder (36:24) How the Growth of the YouTube Channel Affected Anna (42:44) Why Anna Thinks They’ve Been So Popular on YouTube (47:14) How Anna Deals With Online Criticism (58:03) Transgender Statistics in the UK and Anna’s View on the Current Climate (1:03:13) Shopify Ad (1:04:11) Adobe Express Ad (1:05:13) Anna’s Perspective on Featuring Her Children on Social Media (1:16:03) How Motherhood Impacted Anna (1:17:54) Struggling to Connect With Other Mums (1:22:57) Jonathan’s Gender Identity (1:25:54) How Anna Feels About the Negativity Directed Toward Jonathan (1:31:00) Dealing With Online Hate (1:33:30) Quick Fire Questions for Anna (1:39:05) Final Question: Anna’s Decision to Retrain in Nutrition (1:41:15) Most Memorable Conversation (1:45:32) Paul’s Takeaways Sponsored by: Shopify: https://www.shopify.co.uk/needtotalk  Adobe Express: https://ADOBE.LY/PAUL  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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Spend less time searching and more time actually interviewing candidates who check all your boxes. Listeners of this show will get a $75-sponsored job credit at Indeed.com slash podcast. That's Indeed.com slash podcast. Terms and conditions apply. Need a hiring hero? This is a job for Indeed sponsored jobs. People say that my daughter has been exploited for views for money. If anything, brands were afraid to associate themselves with the trans child. We lost my dad to cancer when I was 21. I was spiraling into my eating disorder.

And the one thing that saved me was YouTube. It was just Jonathan and me in our tiny little flat. And I just started creating content. We were making probably like 60,000 a month. And then I had another baby. And then I relapsed. Is it bulimia? Yes.

I tried to recover so many times and failed. Jonathan, he's always my number one supporter. The things that people say about him couldn't be further from the truth, that he is some kind of evil mastermind. And what did you see in him? There were just so many opinions. It was something that I struggled with. You know, I've spent so many sleepless nights worrying about Edie.

I would trade places with that child if I could. I wish I could just take it all of the hurt if it meant that she didn't have to go through it. What's one thing that you see in the comments that you'd love to address for good? Hey, right before I go in, I just want to say this, we absolutely love shooting this podcast and we need your help. So hit subscribe. That's how you could help us. And a Sikone? We need to talk.

Amazing. I'm ready. All right. Now, when I look at a lot of the interviews that you've done, you've always had your husband. Yes. But today, you are alone. Flying solo. I know.

I'm just not used to doing anything solo because obviously Jonathan and I started together. And he has always been a very, he's eight years older than me, right? And I think we've always had this dynamic where he's always been like the protective one. And I think we've just been on this journey of like we create our own content, which has been incredible and we're always in control. but then when you have an outside person and it's like the media and they want something so that they have their own agenda, it will somehow just get twisted in a certain way. So that was part of my, I guess, my anxiety coming here. But now I've met you and I feel settled and I've watched a few episodes and I do feel a lot more

comfortable. So that's good. Well, then this is going to be a great experience for all of us. Yeah. Right. So now can we go back to fully, I think, know you, right? We have to go back to your place of birth. Yes. Which was where? Baltimore. Baltimore, Maryland. Yes. Right. Baltimore, Maryland that I know very well. I know very well. I used to live next to Baltimore. I have cousins. I have aunts in Baltimore. Almost every month my wife and I would venture into Baltimore Harbor.

No way. Absolutely. Oh my God. That is incredible. I did not know that. That makes me feel so much more comfortable for some reason. I feel like I'm with family now. I know Baltimore well.

So I'm curious. How is it that you were born in Baltimore? So my dad was a lot older than my mom. So he was 18 years older, which I know sounds shocking. But they worked. They really did. They were such a good couple. and they complimented each other so well.

And I had three and a half glorious years by myself until my sister came along and ruined everything. Right. Because you were completely spoiled. I was so spoiled. I was the most spoiled little child. Not in terms of like toys or, you know, material things, but for attention. I was so spoiled.

And I really, I loved Baltimore. I loved living there. I loved our home. I loved going to school there. I went to school in Rowland Park Elementary. Okay. And I was the only white girl in my class. Yeah.

You know, so thank you for saying this. Because also, when I think about Baltimore, Baltimore is like 99% black. I know. I was the only white girl in my class. And you know how they say things like, oh, kids don't see color, right? They do.

They fully, of course, we see color. But it wasn't, it's not that. It's that it's so lovely. Kids are so, this is why I think kids are amazing, because, yes, I was the only one that looked different, but there was no difference. You can see that you're different from everybody else, but it doesn't, it doesn't mean anything. You know, it doesn't make a difference. So the only thing that I took away from that was that the other little girls in my class,

they all had this beautiful hair with like corn rows and these little, they used to tie these little, I don't even know what they're called, but like these little hair ties with like bubbles on them or like, like, balls on them. Yeah, I wish I knew to, but I know what you're talking about. Yeah. I thought that was incredible. And I really wanted my hair to look like that. And I didn't understand what I never looked that way. So I loved it. And then I remember all of the moms, the other moms. So obviously my mom is white, but all the black moms, they had these incredible nails. They always had their nails done these long acrylic. And I think that started my obsession with long nails.

I have this obsession with, I have to have my nails done. And my mom is like completely the opposite. And just have the best memories. It was just, it was one of, it was one of the best times of my life. I had a really beautiful childhood. But Baltimore is part of that. It's a special place in your heart. Wow.

Look at that. Yeah. Look at that. That's beautiful. What then inspired the move from Baltimore to Ireland? So my mom is Irish. My dad had a life in the States. I don't know that he really wanted to move, to be honest.

But my mom really wanted to raise kids in Ireland. She wanted to be closer to her family, which I understand, of course. Cork, though, is entirely different. Oh, yeah. So I went from being like it. So that's why I said, you know, I was the only white girl in my class. So I went from being the only white girl in my class to being the darkest girl in my class in Cork. I remember stepping into my classroom and everyone was like, where is she from? Your skin is so tanned. You know, it was just so different. And because back that you have to remember, it was 1994 in Cork, Ireland. And really, you know, people from different countries weren't starting to come to Ireland yet. That happened a little bit later. And so I was different. And all I was, I mean, I was blonde, but I had slightly more tanned skin.

but they were like, she's so exotic. I was just like, wait, what? I just went from one extreme to the next. And you were how old when you made that move? Seven. You were seven. So still young girl. Yeah.

Now, as you're growing up in quark, okay? As you're growing up in quark, what I understand is that puberty hits you early. Mm-hmm. And from all the research I've done around puberty hitting early, in particular girls, yeah. It does have a strong impact. on identity. So how did

puberty landing early for you impact you? So I want to preface what I'm about to say by saying that I love my dad. My dad passed away when I was 21, unfortunately.

We lost him to cancer. I had an incredible dad. He was Italian, though. And Italian culture is just different. to English culture or Irish culture. And I think you need to understand that before I say what I'm about to say because it might seem like I'm throwing my dad under the bus.

But it was just the way he was, right? So my dad cared a lot about image. And I guess from when I was a really young girl, a lot of the praise that he gave me was wrapped around what I loved. looked like. And I was, you know, the only child of my two parents for three and a half years. And I remember it because it was so, like I said, I got so much attention. And as much as that is lovely, I think that a lot of the attention from my dad came from a place of looks. I don't say that in a negative way necessarily. I really don't. I appreciate that that's just part of who he was.

And I'm a bit like that too. You know, I appreciate good looking people and good looking things and a nice aesthetic. But I think perhaps he put so much emphasis on that that it became, that was like my, it was the main track in my brain. Okay. That what I looked like was the most important thing. And all I ever heard was how I was beautiful as a little girl, the most beautiful girl he had ever seen a princess. which are all positive things. But I think because it had such,

it was so wrapped up in what I looked like. And that's not to say that he didn't compliment me in other ways, but a lot of it was to do with just what it looked. I was so cute. I had blonde hair. I was just such a little angel child. So when I started to go through puberty, the compliments started to change.

Interesting. And I hated it. I really hated it. And how did the compliment change? I guess in my dad's defense, he had never had girls before. And the Italian way is just, you say what you think. So you say if someone's not looking so great, you say it. When I went through puberty, my hair started to change too. It started to go from really bright blonde to dark blonde. And suddenly I had boobs and I had hips and I didn't look like a little girl anymore.

and the compliments weren't there anymore. Okay. And I correlated that with I should, I should look like how I used to look. I want to look like how I, I want to be a child again. And it is confusing because actually in your brain you're still a child. At 11, 12, I was still a child. But I do remember my dad being so visibly upset that this was happening so early. And that's not his fault, right?

We as parents, we don't know necessarily when we're making mistakes. And it's our first time living too. So I really don't blame him. I think it's just culturally as well. It's something about Italians with women. They just feel like they, you know, they just say it. They say what they see and they say what they think. And that's not to say that he didn't still say I was pretty, but it was just different.

It was different. Yeah. So that difference, how do you believe the difference? impacts an 11-year-old Anna. It was everything to me. It changed. I think as a little girl, I love my mom, right?

But I idolized my dad. I viewed him as God. Like, he was the one that I needed to impress. And my dad was a brilliant man. Yes. He was also a literary critic. so he could be very critical sometimes. And he was difficult to please, you know.

He had high standards. And so unfortunately, I manifested all of that into how I looked. But how do you believe that it begins to shift how you show up? So, for example, many people could shift into people-pleasing behavior as a result of that. maybe lowered confidence, maybe increased anxiety. How do you believe that your behavior changed? I think my behavior around food changed. Okay.

I think probably around the age of 12 is when I started to get weird about food. And it really didn't start to, when it first started, it wasn't even necessarily anything that I was doing physically. it was more so the mindset. Like I believed that I should stop eating ice cream because I was getting fat. And now I look back and like I was not fat. That is a lie.

But in my brain, because I didn't look like that little girl anymore, that was fat. I always feel guilty a bit because my mom was also so normal about food. She was such a good role model with food. And yet she, ended up with a daughter who had a full-blown 15-year eating disorder, you know?

And I feel so sorry for her because she did nothing wrong. That's not to say that my dad did things wrong. I think it's just he didn't know. No, yes. He didn't know any better. You know, I think that the positioning that you're taking on it is a very mature one. It's one of, I've gone through these traumatic events, according to Gabor Mate. Yes.

He would call that a traumatic event. event. But what you're doing is you're giving your father grace. You're saying he did the best he could with what he knew. He did. So you're giving him that grace and then you're also pulling out, well, what can I now learn from that to become better for myself, to become a better mom, etc. So I appreciate that perspective. So now as you now become a, you know, move into your adolescence, you did go to university? I did, but I quit. Yeah, which was a sword. I was going to say dad must not have liked, and mom must not have liked that as well. No, she was easier about it. She was the one that I told first when I first, but this is where Jonathan comes in. So Jonathan, yeah, Jonathan interjects,

and this is what led to me quitting. Really? Yes. Oh my goodness. This is drama. I know. It's in the drama. Poor Jonathan. Oh my gosh. So then mom and dad must not have liked Jonathan. No, they didn't at all. They, especially my dad. My mom and Jonathan had good, they had a good relationship from the start. I think she, my mom is a really easygoing person.

You know, I don't think there's not a person in the world that would dislike her. She's just so easygoing. She's so warm and kind and friendly. And my dad was too, but he had high standards. Yes. And he always saw me. this was what he said, he always saw me with an academic, someone like him. And Jonathan was not that.

So I was 19 when we met. And so I was still really young. Jonathan was 27. And when you say those two, you know, so now our eight year age gap doesn't seem like anything. But when you're 19 and 27 to my parents, that was like red flag. and the first time they met him, he was in his full biker year. He wrote a motorbike.

He was covered in tattoos, which, I mean, my dad was born in 1938, and he's from Naples, Italy. In his day, he said this even to Jonathan. He was like, in my day, the only people with tattoos were sailors and criminals. So who were you? Wow.

Did he say that upon meeting him for the first time? Not the first time, but he said it pretty quickly after. So he was not impressed. And they just couldn't understand what I saw in him. And he had a shaved head. Like he was, he was a quintessential bad boy. Yes. And just so I understand what you saw in him.

Because it seems like you would, you grew up at a household that I would call straightlaced. Yes, it was. Right. Academically focused. Conservative, probably. So you meet this, you know, guy that looks like a biker. He is a biker with tattoos. Yes. Yeah.

So where did you meet Jonathan? And what did you see in him when you met him? Well, it was completely by chance. So we met at a little cocktail bar. I was with my friends. He was with his friends. And originally he was supposed to be set up with one of my friends. I didn't even know this.

And she didn't show. I was with, I had a boyfriend like so my kind of you know high school sweetheart kind of boyfriend so it was that that secondary school boyfriend and we were kind of teetering out like it was starting to end anyway but I wasn't looking for love

I wasn't in any way interested and Jonathan's side of the story is that when he saw me it was love at first sight so he knew he was like that's the woman I want to spend the rest of my life with from the moment he saw you he was like it was love at first sight. I'm really sorry to say I didn't have the same thoughts

just because I wasn't in that headspace. But we became friends. We started talking. Hold on. Can I go back a little bit though? And I can't let you escape on this way yet. Did you see, were you physically attracted to him? Did you not really? I really wasn't in that mindset.

I had a boyfriend and I'm not the kind of girl to stray. You know? And so when that naturally ended, Jonathan and I had started to talk, but it was just as friends. I think from our friendship, I really just developed this strong sense of like, I really, really like this person. Like this person is really incredible. And then that just developed for me and it developed into a romantic thing. And I did fancy him and I did really want to be with him. And it obviously developed into a boyfriend-girlfriend situation. But originally for me, it wasn't that way.

And for Jonathan, it very much was. Very much was. He was playing a waiting game. You know, it's funny is that that's exactly what happened with my wife and myself. I was playing a waiting game. I was like, I know however long it takes. If it's a year, if it's 10, it doesn't matter. That's exactly what you say is.

Yeah. So then what was it that you saw in him that you think moved you from platonic to romantic. So Jonathan's always been filming things. Like that has always been his thing. Since way before YouTube was even invented, he was filming little videos, he was creating, he was creating content

and directing things. And that was really what he wanted to do. So he had taken it upon himself. He was at university. And he was studying, it was called interactive media at the time. I guess nowadays it would probably be called social media. But that just,

didn't exist back then. So he was studying interactive media and he for, I think, one of his projects was filming a music video and directing a music video. And he asked me if I wanted to be in the music video. And of course I said yes. And originally it was to be like a background person. And then he basically readjusted the entire music video so that I was like the leading person in the the leading lady in the music video. Very, yeah, very much. He did very well. And that was the moment.

Yes. That was the moment. Yeah. How did you then tell your parents about him and what did you say? It wasn't easy. I think I knew that my dad was going to completely, you know, disagree with everything. Weirdly, you know, okay, so Jonathan and my dad are worlds apart. They're so different.

Jonathan's not academic. He is very, very, you know, alternative compared to my father. But personality-wise, they're actually very similar. Interesting. They're both perfectionists in their work. They're both very career-driven. And they have, you know, they're high achievers in their own worlds. But the key thing for me was that my dad did always make me feel like I

was a princess. And the only other guy that I've ever met that has ever done that, you know, compared to all of the other boyfriends I'd had, anyone I'd ever come across with was Jonathan. It was Jonathan. He was the only guy other than my dad to make me feel like I was a true, not just a princess. Jonathan treated me like a queen and still does to this day. I think we were just raised in a household where the woman of the house was number one. and that's so important. And I'm realizing that now with my own kids that if a husband treats his wife and his daughters,

like they're queens and princesses, they're so much more likely to look for that in their partner, in their future partner. And that is so important. How do you describe that? Because it's interesting. I hear that often. He treats me like a queen.

He treats me like a princess. And I would imagine it's different for everyone. It's relative. but for you, what does that mean? I think the kids have never seen Jonathan say a bad word about me. You know, when we had our kids and after having them, I decided to go and get a tummy talk. I got plastic surgery.

And I wasn't sure about it. I was like, I don't know, is this the right thing to do? It feels selfish. It feels, you know, it's elective surgery. I've never even been, I've never had surgery. let alone elective surgery. And am I being selfish putting my life at risk when I have these four kids? Jonathan was very much like, well, you have done so much for our family.

You have created these four lives. And this is, it's time for you to do something for yourself, you know, as you should. And he was really the one. He picked up the phone and made the phone call to the plastic surgeon, which some people can interpret that as toxic. but I know that that came from a really good place. He knew that that's what I wanted and that I was afraid to take that step

because I didn't want to put myself first, but he put me first and he always has done. So I don't use the story about my plastic surgery as just like an example. I'm basically trying to say that story, like how Jonathan did that is how he does everything. Yes. And you were able to identify Jonathan as someone

who can do that because of how your father treated you. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And so what I didn't realize is your father plays this integral role in the early, all the way through to your adolescence. Yeah. You know, so your father, you mentioned that he passed away when you were 21. Yeah, I just turned 21.

So you are not yet married. No. At 21. You have just now, I think that you're just starting YouTube. Yeah. very early at this point yeah were you having conversations with your father about this new life because I would imagine that even though he's going through this um the end of his life he's very concerned about his little girl but she's dropped out of school she's with this this this mad biker guy right

um what were those conversations like and what did you talk about i think towards the end my dad had warmed to Jonathan because how could you not right so I'm really happy that they get that they got on and I'm happy that my dad finally accepted him too because I think that would have been really sad had he not this is such an inflection point in your life in this period this 19 to 21 period such a pivotal point because you are in essence beginning to own your identity yeah Your father is dying. Mm-hmm. So this is what year is this? This is 2008. Yes. Yeah.

So YouTube now has just begun. Just begun. Okay. Yeah. So I started uploading videos on YouTube not as a career thing. You know, it was nothing to do with that. It was really just I saw other girls doing this and they were, you know, uploading content about their makeup routines and their shopping homes. and their shopping halls and their outfits of the day.

And it was so simple and it was just, it seemed like a really lovely community. And they were friends with each other. You know, they were, it was a way of, it was social media. That's what it was. It was a way of reaching out to people and making friends with people. I really didn't see. And at that time YouTube wasn't paying anyway.

And it was really here in the UK. Because we had moved to Bournemouth from Cork. Jonathan wanted to finish his degree. degree in Bournemouth University and then I decided I was going to study fashion. Then my dad died. And that kind of just, I feel like that just railroaded everything for me. I was inconsolable. Like I said, he was kind of my everything.

And I think I honestly spiraled. I was spiraling into my eating disorder, deeper into my eating disorder too. But I think the one thing that saved me was YouTube, because that was the thing that I put all of my energy and my time into. And it was something that was fun. And it was something that was uplifting. And it would take me away from what was really going on. You know? It was just Jonathan and me in our little tiny little flat in a really sketchy area. And we just, I just started creating content. And then I think Jonathan would. sometimes appear in the back of my videos and people loved him. People were like, you need to do more with him.

He's so funny. And he was. He is. He's really funny. And so I just started to incorporate him in more. And then what happened was I think I got my first ever check from YouTube and it was for $70 or something. Okay. Jonathan was like, you can make money from this.

And then I think he started to go, oh, okay. Okay, so if you can make money from YouTube, why am I not doing this too, you know? And also it made sense, right? Because that's what he was actually studying. Like, that's what he was, he could edit, he could do all. I couldn't. I had my little crappy webcam and I didn't know what I was doing. People are sent into our life at certain times.

Because you can almost argue that if Jonathan was not in your life at that time, I don't know what, you know, what could have happened. It seems like Jonathan was a rock. before you. He was. Yeah, in that moment. Could I surprise you with something? Sure.

Okay. Hey, do you know that we've been together for 17 years? And when we first met each other, you were only 19 years old, which means you've almost spent half of your life with me and on this adventure we've been on since we met. We got Amelia, Edie, Alessie, and Andrea. We got our six dogs. And we've been on a hell of a journey. But during that entire 12 years of making that show,

I know you hid who you really are because you were afraid that people wouldn't like you. That you needed to be perfect. Well, the only person you didn't hide from was me. And I know you are perfect. You are amazing. And you have so much to give. I'm so proud of you.

For everything you have done, for everything you've overcome, it's not easy to become a parent while the world is watching. It's not easy to overcome a disorder while the world is watching and commenting and tearing you apart. But true at all, you've been an incredible inspiration to your daughters. And to me, I love you. We all love you. And you are an amazing person. Oh, I'm so beautiful. Thank you. Isn't that sweet?

I mean, I've learned already so much about you, but I didn't realize how important this equation of all of these things happening is really what launched you on to the world. Just a heads up, this next part of the conversation with Anna includes her experience with eating disorders. please watch with care. But now at the same time, you mentioned that you're going deeper into, is it bulimia? Yes. Okay. Yeah. And does anyone know about?

Jonathan knows. Jonathan knows. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So my parents knew a little bit and they tried to get me, I mean, it really was, options were limited back that it was 2007 in Cork. Okay.

So I got some therapy, but it really did. do anything for me. It wasn't it wasn't the right fit. And then when we moved to the UK, it just kind of got worse because, you know, then I was, I was by myself, well, not completely by myself, but I was away from my family and away from my parents. And, you know, when you move out of the home, you have the freedom to do certain things that you maybe couldn't get away with at home. Now, was it, and tell me if I'm, if I'm pronouncing this correctly, is, Is it orthorexia is the exact type of bulimia? So mine was bulimia.

Okay. Then it manifested into, it kind of like changed into orthorexia after having kids. I see. It kind of, it went, you know, it sways from one to another. I think eating disorder mindset is a tricky one because there's so many different ways that it can play out. and I really did, I tried to recover so many times and failed. I tried the more traditional therapy route after I, again, after I had had my second baby. It helped to an extent, but, and so I physically recovered.

I was not doing any, I was not, you know, engaging in any eating disorder behaviors anymore, but my brain was still sick. I still felt like I had an eating disorder. order, even if I was eating, right, and I wasn't making myself sick and I wasn't, I was still fixating over food, though, if I'm really honest. Okay. But I remember him saying, as a professional, he said, you know, this is probably something that you're just going to have to deal with on some level for the rest of your life.

And to me, that felt like a death sentence. It felt like I am trapped, no matter what. even when I'm in my 90s, I'm still going to have this might. Like, that is hell to me. And I stopped seeing him and I had another baby. And then I had another baby and then I relapsed again because the brain wasn't fixed. You know, the mindset wasn't there. And so after that relapse, I was like, okay, I need to do it for real now.

and I got an eating disorder recovery coach. And she was based in the States. So it was like over Zoom. But she had recovered herself. And she had experience. And she had experience with bulimia. And she was a woman in her 50s with two teenage sons. And I was like, yes, this is what I need.

Yes. And I made that mind shift switch. It worked. Something clicked. working with her because it wasn't the more traditional therapy, like I wasn't ever looking back. It was more looking forwards. Just really was, there was something about that that clicked for me. And I think it was that coupled with the fact that she had, herself had experience.

And she was like a beacon of hope. And I remember her saying to me, I just want you to know that I struggled the way that you did and I never think about food anymore. And I was like, what? I want that. Yeah. It was just reprogramming my brain. It was changing those neural pathways. It was rewiring them.

That was the deep work that I did compared to the first time that really, really fixed it. She was right. I don't, I really don't have those thoughts anymore. And I am so, I'm so shocked by how normal I am around food now and how drastic the change is. Because I really did think that, you know, this is going to haunt me for the rest of my life. Absolutely. And I can't even imagine living through it for 15 years. Now, bulimia in particular is it's a cycle of eating large amounts of food and then trying to get rid of the food, right?

But being sick or using laxatives. But orthorexia is the obsession of eating pure food, often causing anxiety or guilt when unhealthy foods are eaten. Yeah. So just so I understand, with orthorexia, you're saying when you're saying clean foods, like, what, like no carb, no fat, no sugar. Is that the idea? For me, it was no sugar, well, not so much no sugar, no gluten, no dairy, no, just anything that was any way like deemed bad or bad for you. And that has been something that I knew that I would have to clear that up. I would have to fully recover. from that if I ever wanted to do anything like what I'm doing right now, which is studying nutrition. I couldn't do the two together because it would be just so, that would be messy, you know.

I see. I needed to have a clean mind. Pardon the pun, but I did. I needed to have a clean mind. And I needed to go in with a mindset that was healthy and balanced in order to approach nutrition properly. So then Anna, what would you advise to someone who's going through? through orthorexia or bulimia at this moment?

I honestly think that getting some form of a recovery coach is the best way forward because it gives you a roadmap. There is hope and, you know, there's a light at the end of the tunnel. And just because this is your reality right now does not mean that you're going to struggle for the rest of your life with it. That's powerful. That's powerful. All right.

So you are battling, though, bulimia. as you begin the YouTube journey. Yes. Right. We've had some people who've been phenomenal on YouTube here. You know, Dan TDM, Tommy In it, Talia Marr. And one thing that I noticed was a common thread

is that there was a moment where they didn't realize they could earn money. They didn't realize they can grow brand and social status through YouTube. But the moment they did, they became obsessed with it. obsessed with the analytics, obsessed with uploading, obsessed. Is that the same thing that happened to you and Jonathan? Not for me.

Oh, not for you. No. I have, like I said, I've never been really a very good career woman. I just haven't. But Jonathan was the opposite because, of course, it became his career. And so, and he is that personality type that just will obsess over the analytics and the data and, you know, and he loves it. He loves creating.

And it's just something that came very naturally to. And he's the provider too. He, at the end of the day, he saw it as a way to provide for our family as it grew. Really, there's nothing, there's nothing special or different about us. We're just normal people. And I think that has been at the crux of how we create our content and who we create our content for. I think the people that know us and have followed us for a long time, I hope they know that, that what you see is what you get.

And I think I did, of course, take on a lot of the speculation and a lot of the criticism because I'm just type A and I'm perfectionist and I would take it to heart. Certainly in the beginning it was something that I struggled with. You know, I struggled with people not liking me or people. not agreeing with me on certain things. And so I would try and change myself to make other people happy. Interesting.

So you would read the comments. Yeah. See a negative comment and then try to... Yeah. So what's an example of that, a comment that you would have seen back then and then adjusted because of it? Down to I remember our wedding.

I was so stressed. I broke out in spots all over my face because I was so stressed. and my skin was probably the worst it had ever been on my wedding day. And I definitely think it had to do with the stress that I was under. And it was purely because every move I made. So, you know, because we were documenting it, I was like, well, this is the wedding dress that I'm going to buy. Or this is the type of flower that I want.

There were just so many opinions. And I wish now that I would have just done what I wanted. But I was so prodded and pushed and pulled in different directions. And I really did listen. to what everybody was saying. So I kind of went along with whatever the majority was saying. I wore my hair the way that people wanted me to. I did my makeup the way that people wanted me to.

You know, of course, I was happy to be marrying Jonathan. But I don't know that I was very happy on my wedding day just because of that. I think I had built this up so much that this wedding had to be perfect. Still to this date, people still say things like, oh, well, they didn't kiss on the lips. So that means that, you know, their marriage is doomed. And it was, you pick apart every single thing. Why didn't, I should have kissed him on the lips. I didn't know.

I was so, like, there were just so many voices in my head going, you need to do this and you need to do that. And don't forget this and don't forget that. I'm curious, how long after the post of that video, which I understood is one of the most viewed videos. You know, within all of the videos that you and Jonathan put out one of the most viewed videos, how soon after the post of that video did you then begin looking at the comments? Oh, it was the next day. The next day. Yeah, because we were vlogging every day.

So poor Jonathan, I mean, I don't know how he did it, but he filmed, edited and uploaded that video the next day. So his own wedding video, we didn't have a videographer. We couldn't afford it. We didn't have a videographer. We didn't have a photographer. It was a very, I mean, it was in Italy. So that's where we spent the most of our money because I really wanted it to be in Italy

because I wanted to be, you know, close to where my dad is from. So that was where our budget went. But other than that, we didn't spend. anything on any on any on any other extras it was just that yeah look at the location look look at that do you think that that wedding video was the beginning of the snowball in a positive way in terms of the growth of this business that you and jonathan were creating i think so and also probably when i got pregnant okay yeah and i agree around misconceptions because even uh when we had dan t dm on and i think it was forbes said it said at one point he had made more money

than definitely anyone in the UK, but it was, I think, almost anyone in the world. And I gave him the number and he said, well, that's what Forbes said. That's not actually what the number was. But to the degree that you're comfortable, can you give almost what that range was early on through to the heyday just so that people understand what not only monetarily, but I would imagine that you're also getting a lot of non-monetary. You're getting donations and people offsetting by offering certain things. So what was that if you think about in the beginning, what was it? And then at the height, what was that?

I think in the beginning, and again, I'm not good with numbers. But I think in the beginning we were making like our rent money. So it was like a thousand a month, something like that. This is the flat and Borman. Yeah. And not the great area of Bormant. Yeah. Okay.

So about that. And then I would say from just YouTube alone, heyday, probably like 60,000 a month. Wow. That's not bad, though. Yeah. I know. That is not bad. No.

And I love how you said it, YouTube alone. We're not counting all this other stuff. But, all right, even though I know maths is not your thing. And notice, that's the British. because I'm saying maths, not math. Like we would say in Baltimore. Yeah, I know. From a content perspective,

what was it that you think attracted people to want to watch you two? We shared everything. And by everything, I mean the true nature of ourselves, like who we really were as people. We shared our opinions about things. We shared our, you know, just even like little nicknames that we had for each other.

It was, you felt like you were really in, our home with us. And then as we had kids, same thing. It was just like, you know, you really felt like you got to know. We really did share a lot. And of course there were always things that you would hold back on. But the internet was a different space back then. It wasn't the space that it is now.

Cancel culture was not a thing. And it was a lot less scary in the sense that it felt more welcoming. it felt more just homemade or something. You know, it was like people making little videos of their lives and putting them, and nothing was a production. Nothing was, it wasn't like TV. And so I think that's what people liked about it was that it wasn't produced. It was just real.

Like my pregnancy, even, all of my pregnancies documenting that. That was something that people were so interested in because they were like, we can read these pregnancy books, you know, what to expect. but we're getting it from you and you're actually telling the story as it's happening to you so it's more real. Yes.

And I think that's what people really, really loved to watch is that like week by week I would update people on what I was going through and my symptoms. But, you know, I also didn't want to just continue

having tons of babies. I loved my four babies but I didn't want to keep going. So I think everything has a shelf life. right? And I don't like to throw shade at anybody. I think everybody can do whatever they want, but I have seen it with maybe some of the newer channels that have started where it's drama and it's, you know, craziness. And you have to, it feels like now you have to be crazier and even more extreme. And that's just not who we are. And so we were like, you know what,

we're going to finish Sikoni Jolie's and we're just going to park it because it was a beautiful journey and we loved it, but we don't want to go down any of these paths of like ruining our family just for views or just for drama, you know. And so we pivoted. And Jonathan is very resourceful and he is an ideas man. And he's always wanted to do kids content. He's always wanted, he actually set up a channel back in, I think it was 2015 or 2016 with just with the kids. Oh my goodness. It was called Friendliest Friends. And he wrote a kid's book, too. He's just the ultimate fun dad, you know, and he would take them and do like little music videos with them.

Again, just like being creative, coming up with little ideas. And he couldn't really keep up with it because he was still doing Sikoni Jolies. Yes. But now that's his thing is that. Yeah. And he loves to make. And the kids come up with ideas and they're, and it's, you know, it's also it's great because it gives us our privacy. Yes.

And no one can tell us, I mean, nobody could tell me what our kids ate for breakfast this morning or what their favorite colors are or, you know, who their friends are, where they go to school. And that's been really nice because... To form that shield around the kids. Yes. Yeah. That has been great because I think that's something that we really didn't think about when we first started because it wasn't anything that we had to think about. You know, not that many people were watching. And then I guess as things snowball and as the views build and you suddenly get to this place where press is getting involved and you know you've got PR people and you've got managers and you've got teams around you and, you know, magazines or papers or printing stuff about you that isn't necessarily true.

That's weird, especially when you go from being just a very normal ordinary person. Yes. Can we even talk about that? Because this is part of the public figure piece that ends up being the place of struggle for so many people. The vast majority of people who come on and we need to talk are public figures. And when it comes to dealing with criticism at that level, it becomes challenging. Yeah. So when you think about the criticism, what has, what largely do you think has been the criticism? And where do you think the critics have been right, but where have they also been wrong? I think probably the most criticism that we've ever had is surrounding one of our children in particular because of their gender identity. Okay. And that has been difficult because, and Jonathan can probably articulate this better than I can. but I think how he would describe it and he's 100% right is when you become the parent of a trans child,

you become a victim of abuse yourself and you don't sign up for it, but it happens. Because whether you like it or not, if you have a trans child and you support them, you get called things like pedophile, groomer, and it happens overnight, like it happens really quick, and it's very confronting because it's like, I've never been called these names before. I don't even know what half of them mean. And that's all because of the fact that you have decided to support your child. So the thing is, when that happens, you take it. because you're protecting your child and you become their protective shield.

And so I don't know any parents of trans children that wouldn't take that on because it's just, it's a cross you have to bear. Now, when you say you take it on, are you saying that you just, you don't fight back? You don't. You rather, yeah, you rather take that on than, it be then it be targeted at your child. So I would rather have somebody think that I'm a pedophile or a groomer than have me not support my child or to have somebody direct that at her, you know? I would rather they come for me or they come for Jonathan. I'll be honest,

it's usually Jonathan. I think because he's a man, I don't know, there's some kind of weird twisted way that people like to think of these things. That's interesting, that they target him more. Much more. Than you, and your thought is because of his gender. Yeah, for sure. Okay. I do.

One of the things that people have got so wrong is they have said that she has been exploited for views, for money, whatever. But what people don't know is that we actually close the doors on Soconi Jolies just before she transitioned. Okay. So her transition, you know, she was eight. So it was socially transitioning, right? She was eight years old.

And that happened after Sikoni Jolies was over. So we stopped YouTube. So we really stopped our bread and butter. And we focused on other things. Jonathan was writing a book. You know, there were a lot of other things going on. So we didn't necessarily financially need to lean. into that anymore.

ED transitioned pretty much off camera. And the only thing that was ever kind of documenting it was TikTok. But at the time, TikTok was super early on. So this was 2020. And TikTok didn't pay for the first couple of years. So nobody made any money. And Jonathan was just creating these cute little videos with her. And basically it was like how proud he was of her being her true self.

But people saw that because they would get views, they saw that as, oh, he's making so much money from her. And in reality, no one made a penny off of that. And if anything, I would say, a lot of the brand deals dried up after EDI socially transitioned. And do you believe specifically because? I know so. Yeah. Yeah. It's transitioning.

Okay. Yeah. I think a lot of brands were probably afraid to associate themselves with a family with a trans child. I will be completely honest, you know, before when it was just, you know, us and our four kids and it was two boys and two girls, it was very cookie cutter. And it suited brands a lot to work with a family like that. You know, it's a nice white family and they're Irish and they're Catholic and they've got these four kids, two boys, two girls, so cute. Right. How many dogs? Six dogs.

Yeah. It's perfect. And then they've got a trans kid and it's like, oh, nobody wants to work with that, you know? And I just think a lot of things changed. A lot of the way that people viewed us, the way that people spoke about us. she thrived in lockdown because that was when it really happened. She felt like she was strong enough to start to change how she dressed and start to change things. And I think that that was just really a beautiful moment for her.

But she got to do it by her own. On her own. Yeah. Can we spend a moment in this space? Because I will say that trans rights and trans experience is something that I, I have become fascinated with. And quite honestly, I owe it to my friend Ella Morgan, you know, who I met a few years ago and was the first transgender woman that I believe I had met. And since that moment, every time I see anything transgender rights, etc., I'm reading it,

I'm looking at it. I'm consuming it. I am asking myself what my thoughts are, et cetera. And one thing that is clear to me is that there is a lot of misinformation, disinformation, and therefore confusion in this space, just in particular around transgender people. And one topic that often comes up, and I think this is a topic of misinformation and disinformation in particular is around a young child transitioning. Yes.

So from the standpoint of a parent, right, is you have Edie who was, did you say eight, roughly? She was eight when she changed her name. So she was probably seven when she started. Okay. So seven. So seven. So she is expressing herself around seven years old.

Yeah. But then also we know that a seven-year-old memory. mimics and plays, et cetera. Yeah. How do you as a parent know that that expression is of a deeper identity opposed to mimic and play? Mm-hmm. So I think a lot of people who had watched our show, they'd watched Soconi Jolie's. They had seen signs from the beginning because she always used to dress up like her sister.

or dress up like a princess from the age of about two. Again, we just thought it was because she had an older sister and she loved Amelia and she wanted to be like Amelia and it was just normal, right? But there were always signs there and then what made it stronger for me is when I eventually had a boy. I had Andrea at my fourth and he was so different.

Like there was just no comparison between the two. And they had been raised in the same home you know, given the same food, same parents, same upbringing. But he was a boy, for sure. But how do you know this, right? And the reason why I go back to this is because, so as a parent of two boys, same food, same house, but they are entirely two different dudes, you know what I mean, entirely. So then how do you know?

And yeah, how do you know? I think, you know, it's funny because I even talk to my other kids, well, Amelia, my oldest about this. And she says sometimes when she looks back on pictures of Edie pre-transition, which Edie doesn't have a problem with, by the way, at all. She's very comfortable. Okay. Yeah, with all of her pictures and videos being out there because we've asked her. She's very much a part of the conversation all the time. Always has been.

She loves it because she's like, that's my, that's my baby. Why would I want that to be eliminated? And I was a really cute baby too. So no. Keep that photo. Yeah. She loves it. So when Amelia sometimes looks back on, especially, you know, pictures of her where she's

dressed more masculine, like a boy, right? And she's like, it's so weird to see her like that because you just can't believe that that's not E. You know? And I agree with her. It's so bizarre to even think of Eadie as anything else now because she's just, you Just she's, that's who she is. She's Edy.

She's always been Edy. She doesn't watch maths, but we were watching maths. And we saw Ella and Jonathan was like, you need to sit down and need to watch this. And let Edy watch her wedding. It was just groundbreaking for her. She was like, she's like me. She's getting married to a man. And, you know, she's having a life.

That is incredible for a trans child. to see and I really hope that Ella knows that, that that's the impact that it has. She's just an icon. She really is. She just astounds me. And what, so this is, what, what year is that? She's in year. She was year four. Year four, I think. Yeah. So what is your view on the landscape right now, especially in the UK, because, you know, I can't help but look at this last Supreme Court ruling here in the UK. So 2025, so this is this year, right? UK Supreme Court ruled that the legal definition of a woman is based on biological sex.

So this judgment obviously could lead to greater restrictions on the access for trans women to services and spaces reserved for women. But then I think what a lot of people don't fully accept or don't pull is are the percentages of trans people. Yeah. So this is the part where I didn't, until researching for this, I didn't understand the numbers. So here are the whopping numbers. The census in England and Wales show that 48,000 people identify as trans men, 48,000 identifies trans women, which equates to 0.2, 0.2 of the population. two and five trans people have experienced a hate crime or incident because of their gender identity. And only one half of trans people feel that they are able to be open about their gender identity to everyone and their family.

So you see there's a long way to go. Yeah. But one place is around your perspective on how the world, how the world, views, or should I say, how the world is going to show up for your daughter? That's the question that I have. If anyone is, you know, struggling with not accepting trans people or an inability to understand them, or an inability to understand even a parent of a trans child who chooses to accept them, I would always ask them the question, which I think is asked in any way.

form of discrimination, would you swap places willingly with a trans person? Because I'm willing to bet that the answer is always going to be no. However, I would trade places with a transgender person if I could. I would trade places with Edie if I could. You could? For sure. Why is that? As her mom, I would take.

all of the pain. I would do anything to trade places with her. I would take it. I would take all of the hurt and discrimination. I would take that if it meant that she didn't have to go through it. That is the one person, the one trans person that I would trade places with in a heartbeat.

I would. Yes. And I truly mean that. And I've laid awake at night sometimes thinking, like, I wish I could. Like, I wish I could just take it away. But then I realized that there's nothing wrong with her. Just because somebody's trans doesn't actually mean that there's anything wrong with them. It's like, it's just, it's something that's been happening for centuries.

And it's nothing new. It's just that we're with social. media and with the world becoming smaller in a way, we're more aware of it now. I will say that there are resources out there for not just transgender people, but families of transgender people. Like I have found a huge amount of support in a charity and health. They help with transgender kids and families and transgender people. They have been phenomenal. And it's been a lifeline for me. and, you know, this isn't sponsored or anything, but I think it would be great to put that in your show note

for anyone who is going through anything. They're just the most non-judgmental charity, and they're there for everybody, not just for transgender people, but also for the people that are around them. And I really needed that at certain points of our lives and I think our journey. You know, thank you for sharing that.

I thought that was a very, compelling look at a parent who simply loves their child, you know, period. Yeah. And, you know, it's interesting, there's no parent, talking about questions that you can ask is there's no parent who wouldn't do anything possible to stop the pain of their child. Exactly. And stop the hurt for their child.

So I'm with you. Yeah. I'm with you on that. You know that feeling when you've just committed to starting something big and then it hits you. How am I going to pull this off? When I started my matchmaking business, I remember sitting at the kitchen counter one night with my computer and 15 tabs open trying to figure out how I should market and sell our services. It was pretty overwhelming, and that continued for a lot of the first year.

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and trying to watch all 1,000 hours. I went to YouTube and I said, okay, let me just put your name in here and let me just go through and watch all of your videos. But do you know what, I mean, you probably can get it. guess what pops up immediately, video after video after video of why you as a family shouldn't be doing what you're doing. And the theme that I saw recurring, because I watched a few of those, was exploitation of children. And one question that I have is, what is your opinion of this? And I will go to something that also I found interesting to kind of kick us off in this area is that there are no restrictions in the UK and in many places in the world around children, I'm sorry, parents, including their children in YouTube content.

Now, there is for other forms of content. So in 2015, the UK child performance laws, were updated, which prevented children from performing for no more than six consecutive days. But it doesn't apply to YouTube. And then what I started to look at, how many parents include their children in not just YouTube, but just generally, right? This was the one that blew me away. Estimates show that the average parent will post. So once again, this is not YouTuber. This is not, this is the average parent.

You have a child. Yeah. Right? We'll post their child's image online almost a thousand times by the time they're only five. A thousand times. Right? By the time, five. But then it goes on, a 2025 study show that 62% of parent influencers do not involve children in filming decisions.

56% of brands have no formal child protection guidelines. And because of all of this, a new term, do you know about sharenting? Yes, I've heard that one before. Sherenting is now officially in the Oxford English Dictionary, meaning when a parent shares news, images, and videos of their children on social media. So what's your perspective and your positioning on this topic? I think it's really interesting because the whole world has changed. changed so quickly. And I guess everyone's trying to catch up. And when we started on YouTube,

it was so, so different. And this wasn't even a conversation. You know, it wasn't even something that anyone thought about necessarily. What sticks out to me and what I, I guess Jonathan and I always kind of go by is that we've never shared anything that our kids would be embarrassed of. So that was always kind of our rule book that we want to just share like the cute moments and the cute that, you know, the happy family memories. So it's kind of like a family photo book or something like that. And also the thing, I think the thing that people don't probably know is that our kids are like the biggest Sakoni Jolie's fans. They watch our old videos and our old content. It's kind of like their comfort.

I don't know. It's maybe because it's their childhood and it helps them remember things. But they love it. They love watching all of the old videos. And I actually got in trouble because I started to question, okay, things are changing now. And, you know, people are saying family vlogging isn't so great and you shouldn't share this, that and the other. And so maybe I should delete some of the video or private some of the videos that are on my channel. So I did. I went in and I privateed some of them. Quite a lot of them, actually. Because I wasn't really sure.

I was like, well, the baby updates. Should they really be on there? I don't know. Like, who knows? Right? We're all learning. So I did that. And Amelia came to me straight away.

Actually, both Amelia and Edie. Where are all of my baby updates gone? Really? Yeah. And I was in so much trouble. She was like, why did you get rid of them? I used to watch them every night. I was like, I'm so sorry.

And she asked me to put them back. they take this, you know, they were not, they were given this life without a choice. They didn't choose what parents they got and they happened to get parents that were YouTubers. Now though, because you mentioned Amelia's 13. So we, another similarity, we have a, we both, we have a teenager, I have a teenager, right? And an 11 year old, right? Which is prime social media age. Yes.

For them to begin, you know, migrating on. Yeah. And I, you know, it's so weird to say it, but I guess I'm kind of a public figure, kind of. And so it's one of those where I know that whenever I'm posting and my children are involved, and I'll never forget this. This happened maybe about two to three years ago because if you would go back and look at my, say, Instagram, for example, you have a child. You're like, I want to show my child off. I want to everyone.

Look, look, look, look. And you're right, the world was different eight years ago. And then what ends up happening is we then, you know, we had Georgia Harrison on. She's talking about deep fakes and you see how people take images, they manipulate them. You become aware and you begin to then slow, slow, slow, slow, slow. And then what I realized, too, is that I would take a photo and my sons would say, you don't have my consent. Literally.

That's their line right now. You don't have my consent. I'm like, I'm not posting this. They still will say, you don't have my consent. But what they are, even though a lot of those are jokes, they are trying to insert themselves to say, I do have ownership and authority over my likeness. And so they should. And so they should. Yeah.

And so now with my oldest, you know, he has an Instagram account and it was his birthday. And I remember having this whole conversation around Kingston, do you want me to tag you in this? or not. He was like, oh, dad, yeah, yeah. And then we had this long conversation around, well, what are you going to use your account for? Yeah. What are you going to post? Be methodical about it. And yes, Kingston, there will also be extra attention given to you as a result of, you know, my business. And so did you have that same conversation you did with a million ed with all the children, just just the two? And what did you talk about? More so the older two, because, of course, now I think the rule is on social media 13, right?

They can... You know, I think, but also I know that... Oh, yes. Kids skirt it by any means necessary. For sure. And I think to a degree, we have to be okay with that. Like, we have to embrace... You know, I see a lot of fear around social media and kids.

And I get it. Like, I totally get it. But I do think that we need to be open to it. And we need to be having conversations with them. Because I think the minute that we say, you're not allowed, don't do it. This is bad. That shuts a door. And then they're going to do it anyway behind your back.

So I think that for me and certainly for Jonathan, we have always just had a really open, we're a very open family. Like we have open conversations all of the time. And if ever any of them had an issue with anything, they know that they can come to either one of us. We also are very upfront about the fact with all of our kids that mommy and daddy made so many mistakes. So many. And we continue to do so. You know, and that's okay. And the reason why we're maybe saying maybe don't do this or maybe be careful with that is because we've made.

the mistakes before you. But again, we have to make those mistakes in order to learn and grow. And I think that without that and without that knowledge, we can't move forward with our kids. They come to us and they tell us and they show us things. And we see everything. And we're clever. Like we know how to navigate these apps.

We know what's going on. Sometimes she won't message me. You know, when she's out, she won't message me back. So I go on Snapchat and like, just Snapchat her. And then I get a response. And I'm like, wow, see, pays to be a cool mom. There you go. You know how to navigate it.

Yeah, but it's important, you know, and location sharing it. They turn location services off, by the way, just so you know. Yes. Yes. That's a thing. You know, it's interesting is that I think that maybe also because of my business, I have to be up on the latest on socials. But I didn't think of it until you just mentioned it, how many parents could actually

be entirely clueled. around how the apps operate, how to navigate it, and therefore you're right. You're at a heavy disadvantage if you have children and you don't know it operate. And I think that's scary. I really do. And it's through no fault of anyone's. It's just the way things are.

But I think that, you know, someone like even my parents would have struggled because they wouldn't have been remotely interested in that whole landscape of social media. If it had existed back then, I know for a fact. It just wouldn't have been on their radar. So I think they would have struggled. And my mom always says it to me now. She's like, I think it's so much harder for parents now that have to navigate. But, you know, then Jonathan argues that our kids are going to have something else with their kids to deal with.

So it's ever-changing. Sure. And that's just part of life. And be informed. Yes. I think that's the key. What I didn't realize in looking at this research here is that motherhood, it seems like it's been this gift to you. Yeah.

And you were pregnant, is it six times in five years? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. One miscarriage. Yes. Documented. Mm-hmm.

Right? Yeah. Documented. But when you think about motherhood, just overall, how do you believe it has shaped you? And I wonder, too, is how has it impacted this people-pleasing personality type that you seem to have earlier in life? I think so for me,

when I got pregnant with my first, with Amelia, I remember the first night that Jonathan left me in the hospital and I was in there with her by myself and you know, it's that moment of like

reality hits. What do I do? Yes. But weirdly, I didn't feel scared. I was scared that he was leaving me because he was just going down the road, you know, of course, small. But I was scared to be left by myself. But at the same time, I knew that I had got this. I knew I just had this instinctual feeling that I knew what to do. She was my baby. She came out of me. I loved breastfeeding. I loved, I just loved being a mom. I loved all of it. So, so much. And I felt like I was

finally, I finally had found something that I was actually good at. Like, I just never felt like I was good at anything before. Really? Yeah, I really felt like I was, I guess it's the perfectionist in me. I just never felt like I was good enough at anything in particular. Felt like I could always be better. This thing, I had it. Like, I knew what I was doing.

I was a good mom. You instantaneously had this motherhood instinct kick in. And then, and you could see how much love you have for your children. like you could see it in the footage. So I can't imagine what it looks like off the footage. What do you believe your relationship was or your ability to form relationships with other moms? Because this is something that I saw in the research

that I thought was really interesting is that I think there's this idea that you're a mom, you have children, you drop them off at school, you instantaneously bond with all the other moms, right? It's just a thing. The moms go do their thing. Yeah. But from what I see, it doesn't always happen.

No. Did it happen for you? No. Okay. I was a lot younger than a lot of the moms at the school. And I struggled with that because I felt like they had these big careers. They were doctors, lawyers. They were in finance.

I didn't have any of that. I was just a YouTuber, you know? And I was like, I'm not supposed to be here. I really am not. Like, it's not, I didn't feel like I fitted in. But then something magical did happen. Okay. I was outside the school gates and I met the gay dad.

The gay dad showed up and he was the same age as me. And he had three kids. And I was like, wait, started talking to him. And I was looking at him and I was thinking, this guy is the same. He's the same age as me. He's young. He's not old. And I don't think he works in.

finance and I don't think he's a doctor or a lawyer. He's he's talking like me. Like we just had a connection. And it was like instant we became best friends and I met my, that's how I found my tribe. I found my, finally found my mum friend, but it was in the form of a gay dad. And weirdly, you know, it's also been such a positive journey to have Matt as my best friend in terms of Edie. Okay. Because I remember when we went to the gender therapist and we had a conversation about Edie's journey and I asked her about fertility was a big thing for me.

This is a big question. Like, what's going to happen with her? And she said, I remember she said, and I got really upset because she said, you know, the likelihood that Edie as a trans woman will have. her own, be able to have her own biological kids is pretty slim. Um, not impossible, but it's pretty slim. Just given the statistics, right? And she said, I think what you should do is make Edy aware of other families that just look different, right? Well, I started crying. I just broke down because I felt like this was a huge,

loss for her that she was never going to be able to experience what I had experienced. And that moment that I was just talking about in the hospital. Yes. How, like, that's not going to happen for her. Like, that's awful, you know? And I really, I sat with it and I just, I cried. And Jonathan was looking at me like, what is wrong with her, you know? And I didn't understand why he was being so unsympathetic.

I was like, what's wrong with you? Right. But you had just had this life-changing experience. And he's like, Okay. And then we got home and I spoke, I did the school run and I spoke to my best friend Matt and he's had three kids by surrogacy. And I said, and I love his kids. They're like my niece and nephews, you know. And I said to him, you know, this is what she said about the fertility. That's awful. Like how can that be? You know, that's so terrible for Edie. And he said, he looked at. at me and he was like, but Anna, that's like me with my kids.

And I swear the penny dropped. I did not even think about him and his kids as being any way different. You know, when she said, oh, you should kind of open her eyes to different family. I didn't think of that. And he said, that's me with my kids. You do realize that. I hadn't realized it because for me, like, it's the same, right? Yes.

And when he said that, it was like everything changed. I think I was crying, but I was also so happy at the same time. I was like, oh my gosh, you're right. As we all get older, you know, you realize how much you don't know. Yeah. You know, and how ignorant, you know, you are. But I think, unfortunately, for many people, what they do is they don't have that realization and they just stay within that box opposed to growing, which is stepping outside of the box.

Yeah. You know, experiencing discomfort. Yeah. and obviously maturing, you know. One area that I want you to help me with, too, this is in my maturity, is that, so we've talked a lot about Jonathan. So with Jonathan, here's the part that I want you to help me with. You probably know where I'm going.

Is that, so is it 2022 that Jonathan came out as non-binary? Yes. Okay. But the question that I have is what I've seen in terms of. terms of reading commentary from him and yourself is that the relationship did not change. No. That's the part that I just want to understand is that from what, from how I look at it is that he's saying that he knows that his identity has always been a woman internally.

He, so Jonathan has basically a very strong relationship with what I, well, what I would call it is like the spirit world, I guess. He's very in tune with, I guess, just that side of things. He's always seen things that other people don't see. I think that in another lifetime he could have been a medium. Okay. He, so, and he had a very tricky childhood. So a lot of how he was brought up and how he was raised, he was in his head. And a lot of that, and it's in his book, actually, what he wrote about in his book, Invisible Friends.

Okay. And he was, he talked about this in his book about how, you know, there were a lot of, I guess you would call them spirit guides that got him through a tricky childhood because he lived. very much in his head. Interesting. Okay. So I don't think Jonathan is defined by any gender. So he's always felt this way, clearly. Yeah.

Right. But at what point did you two have that conversation? I don't really know that we ever had a conversation about it. I think it was just like a natural progression of like this is who he is. And as a person, that's who I love. So. Okay. So this, well, this actually makes sense to me.

Right, because what I thought was that there was an epiphany that he had in 2022 and came out publicly with this epiphany, had a conversation with you around that point. And so I was thinking, how does your relationship not change? Yeah. But what you're telling me is that this is, you never had to have a conversation because he's always been his way. You've always been your way. And this public announcement of it was just making. making it clear publicly. Yeah, and I think he also, I guess, before, non-binary wasn't even a thing.

Like, no one even really talked. That's true. We didn't have the language for it. Yeah. And he was like, you know what, that describes me perfectly. For this person that you love so much, I mean, how do you feel? And what is your response to the negativity that comes after him? because not only around Edie do I feel like he disproportionately gets the hate, but I think just generally.

Generally. You know, there was a documentary that I'm sure a lot of people watched a bachelor's, Stacey Dooley's documentary. And I distinctly remember looking at the comments. Yeah. And the comments, the general theme of the comment was, this guy is the problem. Anna, go save yourself. Like, get out of this situation. Go back to Baltimore.

Yeah, it's so funny. It's like people get it so wrong. But it's, it feels like it is aimed at him. So how do you feel reading, seeing that? Do your kids see that? How does he feel? I think Jonathan is a really strong person. I think he is very good at seeing the bigger picture with everything.

I'm sure it gets to him at some point. I mean, I'm sure it's not nice to hear or see those things. For me, it's very difficult, I will say, because he, you know, the things that people say about him couldn't be further from the truth. And I think people have misconstrued this whole, like what you said about the documentary where they think that he is controlling

or some kind of, I don't know, evil mastermind And whereas the way I see it, well, the way I see it, the truth of it is that he's just protecting his tribe and he is just a protective person. And, you know, when that documentary was shot, I was still, I was in the throes of my relapse. And so I was hiding a lot of stuff. And I did not, I was not open to being filmed or being. You know, it's so interesting you said that, Anna, because I felt like you. You took a step back and you were removed. I really didn't like it.

I didn't enjoy any of it. And Jonathan was in protective mode because he knew that. And I think that's kind of what he was talking about when he made that video too. Yes. He's always kind of had to almost, I don't want to say, overperform. But he knew that he was going to get the brunt of whatever was coming because he was going to be more so front and center of that documentary. because I was just not willing to even really be filmed.

Like I just didn't want, I wasn't comfortable with the film crew in our house. You have to remember as well, you know, people say things about our kids and exposure and that. There's really not a lot of exposure because it's just me and Jonathan and we've got, you know, our little camera, which is tiny. The kids, they're not used to having like a film. Some kids are because they're in reality shows or they're in actual TV shows.

Our kids are not. they're not used to like all this set up or, you know, people with a boom mic. And there's lots of people there. You know, these scenes that you shoot in a bedroom, like a kid's bedroom, there's like eight people. Yes. And it's so unnatural. And so I didn't like it. I guess the kids aren't used to it.

But, you know, it was something that we did and it was an experience that we had. But I will say the timing of it wasn't great because I was just not in a good head. space at all. And you can tell for sure. But then people will take that and twist it to, you know, Jonathan's the bad guy. But Jonathan's really the most protective. That's it. It's interesting to hear this. Because what it sounds like you're saying is that he knew you were going through this for sure. So he stepped up and had to, you know, and I know not perform, but he had to step up and almost absorb more of the interaction. I implicitly trust Jonathan.

I know that he will do what's right for us, for me, for our kids, for our family. And you also don't know. Like we've had so many experiences with the press where journalists have come to do interviews with us. And I guess what has happened is, because it's happened quite a few times, they've come to be like a fly on the wall, say. And they're like, we really want to, you know, just get to grips with how you do what you do. and you know how you live your lives and this and that and they spend the day and then they go away and they write an article and I think probably what happens is they send it to their editor and their editor is like this is not juicy enough nothing happened turn up the drama yeah and then they go away and you

think they're the nicest person and then they write the most horrific article about you and you're like where did this come from you know and that has happened so many times with us But when the people talk and they comment, I mean, how does that impact you and your family? And I'll give you my experience is that, you know, I'm on a few shows. A lot of pleasant comments, some very unpleasant comments. And I'll never forget my one of my sons discovered this Reddit that was like, you know, the worst commentary on their dad. You know, this guy that they love. Yeah.

And they read that. And you have to reconcile. And they say, oh, I'm fine, but you can see they're not. Yeah. And then, you know, I become so upset to think, you know what, if you have that to say, which is completely incorrect, and you're just in your feelings. And clearly, you're just mad at your own life. Yeah. Why don't you just direct message me that?

I know. You tell me that on the street. but don't publicly put that in a space where my son is going to read that. You know, I don't think I've ever been more upset than that. And then the New York comes out. I'm like, find this person. You know what? Track this person down.

You know, I'm going to show up to your house with 20 Jamaicans. Yeah. So that's my experience. Yeah. What's your experience? So it's really difficult. because, of course, you know, as the kids have got older and they've got more, they've learned to read and they've learned how to navigate things and they've seen stuff. And some of the YouTube videos that you were just talking about, Alessia, my eight-year-old, has seen.

Wow. Because they've been, they've come up on her page because I guess if she, because like I said, they watch Soconi Jolie's videos. It's like their comfort thing. They love it. And Alessia has actually, so she's eight, she has actually gone on and she's left comments. Is she? Yes. We just discovered this the other day. Are you serious?

Just a few days ago, she has left comments and said, how dare you say this about my dad? My parents are so amazing. They're not abusing me. It's so cute. And we just thought, oh gosh, it's so sweet. But, you know, it's also, it's not right. She shouldn't have to do that. She shouldn't have to feel the need to defend her parents.

Can I, I do want to do the nutrition, but I have to quick fire questions. Okay. And I think that this will be, you are the right person to answer these. Okay. So quick fire question one. What's one thing that you see in the comments that you'd love to address for good and put to bed? Oh, that's a good question. I think I addressed it.

I think it's the ED exploitation thing. I think that's, yeah, I would want people to know that because that's a really common misconception and the truth of it is, you know, nobody ever made money off of her transition. So yeah, I think that's one. In fact, you lost money. Yes, exactly, for sure.

What's been your proudest online moment? I think probably weirdly for me was the miscarriage. I know that sounds so strange because at the time it was so, it was such an ugly moment for me. You know, I just, I thought it was so awful to have to share something that sad. But it was so, you know, Jonathan had put the camera down because we thought we were going to get, we were getting a scan. And so he'd put it down.

because I've had questions about this too. Like, why did he film it? Well, it was a mistake. He filmed it because he thought we were getting this scan and we were going to find out like more about the baby. And so he put the camera down and forgot about it. And then we got the news. And then it shows me just breaking down and him hugging me.

And yeah, we got a lot of stink for that for sharing, you know, for recording that. But really it happened so organically because we thought it was going to be good news. You know, we didn't think it was going to be bad news. But I'm proud that we did capture that because that moment is something that so many other parents have experienced. And it's a real moment. And it makes them feel like they don't have to do it alone. Yeah, makes them feel seen.

Yeah. Yeah. What's one boundary that's changed how you use social media? I think what I said about sharing opinions, I used to, you know, share my opinion. stuff um if something bothered me or if i saw someone even if i saw someone else on social media being treated a certain way and i would speak up now i just don't do it because it just puts you under more heat for you know and i i truly believe in standing up for others but at the same time it's like it's just so tricky out there and it's sometimes it's just easier to just see it as like this is my job

it's entertainment I'm not going to put my real full real self on there isn't that it's so it's so tricky isn't it because you at the same time then you're silenced I know and then

perpetrators if you will win yeah because ultimately that's what they want is your silence I know it's so tricky but I just think what I've learned about just your own safety and your own like

mental safety sometimes it's just, it's better to just to let it be. To let it be. Yeah. Okay. Two more. What advice would you get? Actually, it's interesting.

You just said this one too, but what advice would you give to someone starting YouTube today? Yeah, I would say to just enjoy the journey. I think just enjoy the journey. It's, YouTube has given us so many things that are incredible. And, you know, they always say, don't bite the hand that feeds you. I think that's so true with YouTube. It's like YouTube has always been the hand that feeds us. And it's always been our bread and butter.

And it's always, I think YouTube takes care of its creators. I really do of all of the platforms. So I think it's a beautiful platform to get started on. And I just would say to anybody who wants to do it, just do it and just enjoy it. Okay. Last one. What's one thing you hope your audience understands about you now? I think I would just hope that they understand that I'm a normal person.

Like you see so many things that are written about you online. And actually, Amelia said this to me too, which I thought was very wise for her age. She said, I think that people forget that we're real people. Okay. And not just us, but anyone in the public eye. She said, because I've seen it happen to other YouTubers. I've seen it happen to other famous people, famous, you know, kids of famous people, too, where they forget that that's a human being. And they pick on them and say things about them like it's a sport.

And certainly it's something that I've seen with, you know, our kids too. that that's that's not normal like that's not a normal way that's not a human way to be to want to pick someone apart to that extent and so I I really would hope that people realize that we're just ordinary normal people we're human beings we make mistakes but we're just like everybody else all right I love it I love it so then Anna what inspired you to go back to school because you've just recently going back to school yeah yeah So I went back. I think I probably had, like I was saying, I had so much of my identity and so much of my self-worth was wrapped up in being a mum.

And, you know, my nutrition course is not, it's not something that I did because I wanted to switch careers. It's something that I did because I wanted to help, you know, I wanted this to kind of almost enhance the career that I already have. and I didn't want to be one of those people that was just another influencer talking about things that I'm not qualified in. So I really wanted to get qualified so that I could have something behind me, like backing me. Yes, talk with more authority. Yeah, no, I really know what I'm saying. And I don't claim to, you know, I'm still a student. I don't claim to have that authority yet.

But, and, you know, maybe I, I don't know that I even will after I graduate. But at least I'll be better informed and at least I'll be better educated. and be the person that I needed when I was 12, you know. That's what it seems like. Yeah. It seems like you're showing up for you. Yeah. You know?

Yeah. And you spent this whole life showing up for everyone else. Yeah. You know, and now show up for yourself. It's like the tummy talk. It is. It absolutely is. And I love also not only the inspiration for your children, but the inspiration for so many people.

to say, you know what, at any point, you can go back to school. True. And you can go back to school because, you know, school is a wonderful place. I think we were taught that it's like this. But no, it's wonderful. It's wonderful to learn. It is. It's wonderful.

And I'm actually probably one of the, surprisingly, one of the younger ones in my course. I thought I would be, like, older. But that inspires me so much. Like, there's people on my course that are in their 70s. And that is so cool to me to still want to learn at that age. I want to be like that. Like that's what I want to be like. Before I wrap, then you get the final question.

Everyone gets this question. Okay. This is my favorite question. Yes. And that is if you look back upon your life, you've had some amazing conversations. Which one stands out to you as the most memorable? Who was it with? And what did you learn?

I think it was with Jonathan. I'm going to have to say because I probably I probably have learned the most from Jonathan to be honest he's very like I said he's very wise and I remember

going back to when I was 19 and I was at that crossroads where I was doing I was at school so I was doing language and cultural studies and I hated it and I remember having a conversation with him

early on so I don't even think we were together yet I think we were just friends and I was talking to him about how I've always loved like fashion and beauty and all of these different things that my family just don't really value like that's not something that they are interested in and he was like okay well why are you not doing those things and I said well because I can't I want to make my parents happy, you know, and I just, I can't do that. And he said, if you want to change something about your life or yourself, just change it. And it was like a switch went off in my brain. It was almost as if it's the most obvious thing when you really think about it, but that sentence right there just changed everything for me. I was like, it was like, you have the power to, it's your life.

Right. It's not your parents' life. It's yours. So if you're not, you're not, not happy with something, just change it. It was just like an epiphany for me and it opened this door of like, of possibility where I realized, oh, I don't have to do all of these steps that are laid out for me. I could actually go this way. I'll never forget that conversation because that would be probably my advice to all of my kids too. If you don't like something about your life, change it.

You have the power to do that. Yes, yes. You said that with conviction. I felt that. It was one of those problems. I'm thinking, I do have the power to change. I am going to change things, right? Anna, I have fully, thoroughly enjoyed this.

Thank you. I truly have. So, no, I. You know, I will say this is I started saying this off camera, and you looked at me like, what are you talking about? But you deserve a place in history. when you think about how prevalent creators are today. I mean, we're living in a creator economy right now.

YouTube, Spotify, in particular, are two of the biggest platforms to do it. And you arguably were one of the most recognized first family within the UK to begin this journey. Your pioneers, pioneers always deserve a place in history. So you deserve, you have a place in my history book. Thank you. That's for sure. But also, I am, I stand very impressed with you. Really?

Very impressed. Thank you. I think you are brilliant. And I'm not saying that facetiously. I'm not just saying it to try to gas you up here at the end. I'm saying it because you are. I've set across from many people, some of the most brilliant minds in the world. And let me tell you, you are quick.

You're very quick. You are very reflective in how quick you are. Thank you. And you have strong conviction in what you say. Those are the marks of a brilliant mind. Thank you. I think you are brilliant. And I cannot wait to see what the next chapter looks like for you and your family.

Thank you so much. You got it. You got it. That was it. Thank you. That was so lovely. I'm often pleasantly surprised. I could be most surprised with Anna

and how she showed up and what she said. And here's the reason why is because I've watched so much footage of Anna Sikone. Today, I feel like she showed up as truly herself. And I think what we often do as a society is we take our current framing of rules and regulations and and how we operate in today's society and we apply it to yesteryear. And so I feel as if what she was telling us is, hey, we've made mistakes. She understands the repercussion that comes from that and has thought about that weight on her children. But then also she was very eloquent in saying, well, the rules are murky.

It's a gray zone right now. And I think that's why there's no legislation around children and YouTube in the UK and in so many parts of the world because it is a gray zone. You know, you have creators popping up at 13 and 14 years old. Some of the most popular YouTube creators are under the age of 21.

And so how do you regulate that? I think we're struggling with how to do that. I constantly think, am I, making decisions that I believe are the right ones, the best ones today for my children, that will be harmful in just 20 years. And it could be something that I think is basic, like, don't eat this, but eat that, right? You know, should you be exercising at this age? As parents, we are utterly confused. And it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, exacerbates the challenge of parenting.

So we have to, though, give ourselves grace. And ultimately, we have to do the best we can with the information we have. She is brilliantly complicated, like so many of us. Hey, honey, it's mom. Did you know if we switch to Verizon we can get four phones for $0, plus four lines for $25 a line? Call me back. Me again.

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