We Need To Talk with Paul C. Brunson - “Anxiety Made Me Feel Like I Was Dying” The Creator of The Boy, the Mole, the Fox, and the Horse

Episode Date: October 14, 2025

Oscar-winning author and artist Charlie Mackesy opens up like never before - about anxiety, grief, loneliness, and the quiet power of kindness.Content warning: This episode includes discussion of suicidal ideation.  Charlie is the creator of The Boy, the Mole, the Fox and the Horse - the longest-running Sunday Times bestseller in history, translated into over 50 languages and embraced by millions around the world. In this rare and deeply personal conversation, Charlie reflects on the moments that shaped both his life and his work - from the loss that changed everything to the drawings that helped strangers feel less alone. He and Paul talk about anxiety, friendship, and the radical courage it takes to be vulnerable. Charlie shares: ◽ The moment grief changed the course of his life◽ The story behind the illustrations that helped strangers stay alive◽ How he sketched his way around the world◽ How bad the anxiety got - and the breathing trick that helped him survive◽ The path to The Boy, the Mole, the Fox and the Horse◽ The journey to his new book, Always Remember◽ What it took to create his Oscar-winning film◽ How shame isolates men - and why kindness is the antidote Charlie Mackesy, We Need To Talk.If you’re struggling, you don’t have to face it alone. We’ve included support charities below: Samaritans - call on 116 123 or visit https://g2ul0.app.link/xghDmmYV4Wb Campaign Against Living Miserably (CALM): https://g2ul0.app.link/npaQKXUV4Wb Follow me here:https://www.instagram.com/needtotalk https://www.tiktok.com/@weneedtotalkpod Support Charlie here:Instagram: https://g2ul0.app.link/llwkLT0jrXb Always Remember: https://g2ul0.app.link/l0I8zRXjrXb  (00:00) Intro(02:38) Charlie's Upbringing in Northumberland(06:34) Changing Schools at 16(10:16) Why Charlie Started Drawing(19:02) Losing His Best Friend at 18(19:58) Moving to London and Starting His Career(23:12) Time in Manhattan(33:16) Picking Tea in Zimbabwe(35:13) Connection to Brixton(40:07) Adobe Express Ad(41:06) Shopify Ad(42:06) Creating *The Boy, the Mole, the Fox and the Horse*(55:48) The Book’s Commercial Success(1:02:43) Behind the Scenes of *Love Actually*(1:06:25) Making the Film Adaptation(1:08:42) Winning an Oscar(1:12:36) Concept Behind *Always Remember*(1:14:47) Love Better Tour Ad(1:15:46) Facing Darker Periods in Life(1:19:51) Managing Anxiety(1:27:55) Attention Span(1:29:30) Creative Process Demo(1:30:56) Friendships Past and Present(1:38:19) Thoughts on Faith(1:43:13) What Paul and Charlie Are Grateful For(1:45:18) Drawing Mantra(1:48:36) Latest Drawing Reveal(1:50:20) Paul's TakeawaysSponsored by:Shopify: https://www.shopify.co.uk/needtotalk Adobe Express: https://ADOBE.LY/PAUL  Get Your Tickets to Paul’s Love Better Tour!Bristol - https://g2ul0.app.link/mt5I2RKhrXbCardiff - https://g2ul0.app.link/5mZIoBNhrXbGlasgow - https://g2ul0.app.link/FMk3N4PhrXbBirmingham - https://g2ul0.app.link/pJIj4XShrXbManchester - https://g2ul0.app.link/4SQwKDXhrXbBrighton - https://g2ul0.app.link/BO71HSZhrXbLondon - https://g2ul0.app.link/gm6iB91hrXb Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Good sleep is everything. That's why Ali's science back support is made with a blend of melatonin and L-thianine for both kiddos and grown-ups. So when your mind won't switch off, you've got something that can help. Erasing thoughts and restless nights won't stand a chance. Find Ollie's sleep solutions for the whole family at ollie.com. That's OLL-L-Y.com. When you need to build up your team to handle the growing chaos at work, use Indeed-sponsored jobs. It gives your job posts the boost it needs to be seen.

seen and helps reach people with the right skills, certifications, and more. Spend less time searching and more time actually interviewing candidates who check all your boxes. Listeners of this show will get a $75-sponsored job credit at Indeed.com slash podcast. That's Indeed.com slash podcast. Terms and conditions apply. Need a hiring hero? This is a job for Indeed sponsored jobs. One of my best friends from school who was killed when I was 18. That's like a red line in a life. How does that impact you? Your book is the longest running Sunday Times bestseller ever.

How does that make you through? Drawing was a way of making sense of things. At any moment, I could say, here's a drawing, and it would communicate something. Sat on streets and just drew streets and bow to see. I remember a lady approached with two children to look at what I was drawing, and I heard her say, that's what'll happen to you

if you don't do your homework. In the same day, hilariously, a guy approached me, and he said, you should come and see us. We run a gallery. I got so many messages from people, so keep making my drawings. So I did, and then I thought I would do an exhibition of the drawings. 10,000 people came in five days. 10,000.

A lot of our lives are spent with things going on that we're processing from long ago that's deep within us. They're dark moments where things catch up with you, things you've been running from. What have you been running from? Courage is something so different to what the world is telling you. It's so, so brave to say how you feel. This is me being courageous. I absolutely love you. I love you too.

Glad you here. What's up, everyone? Just wanted to let you know before we begin that this conversation with Charlie Macassie is one of my favorites of all time. Now, we touch on lots of amazing topics like his career, his Oscar, his best-selling book, but we also touch on some sensitive topics like suicide.

So please take care while watching. And we always want to hear what you think. So please don't forget to leave us a comment and like and subscribe. Charlie Macassie, we need to talk. We do, Paul. Now, I know that you rarely do interviews. Yeah, not often, I wouldn't think. You know, funny, I like talking a lot.

I'm sometimes a bit nervous of someone interviewing me and then writing something and changing what I've said. but a direct honest conversation is one of my favorite things okay and i don't feel this is an interview like you're not an interviewer you're you're wider and bigger than that and you know i feel but but since i arrived we just have been talking and sharing stuff yes that's not an interview it's not no it's way better right let's go all the way back right where were you born i was born in a little town in Northumberland in what is now a pub

I was born on the first floor and it's now I think the Red Lion in Corbridge I think and it was very wild very woolly rural Northumberland you know which is in the end of the borders a lot of sheep and incredible the jordes

like in the other sort of Italians of Britain they're expressive and warm in the the musicality to the accent and it's beautiful. Yes, yes, it's melodic. It's rhythmic and Ari Chari, how you're going, and yeah. It's all very tuneful. Yes.

What could you tell us about? Not your parents. My dad was really clever. And he designed chips. And we go to Newcastle, which on the coast, to design and build chips. And my mom, you know, my mom designed. When in her youth worked in theatre, she did costume design and stuff. We lived in a small village where everyone knew everyone, and there were geese, and I think we got ringworm from some calves who were next door.

It was very, there was mud everywhere. Oh, my goodness. Yeah, and chickens came in the kitchen. So, because the north was predominantly farmland. Yeah, this was, yeah. So then, and this is we're talking about what the, what, 19? Well, I was born in 62. So 19?

70s. Yes. And I was at school there and there was a mud revival. And the people in biology were all mods. Yes. You know, it was like that. Vespers and Parkers and, you know, it was amazing. It was amazing.

So what was your hair like that? My hair was just curly, blonde curly hair. Blonde curly hair? Yeah. Okay. I often look back at my life. Do you? And I have categories based on my haircuts.

That's interesting That was the pigtails day The pigtails So I had the I had a you know Small afro Larger afro So large that it needed to be

Kind of clipped down Then I went into more of a You know A fade like a box Did you really? Oh yeah And then it just got Lower and lower

And lower And lower and lower And lower and lower But you have such a perfect skull that you don't need her. Like it's an addition. It's it's I mean I've worked as a sculptor and drawn people and you know a good skull, the shaped skull. It's amazing. Oh, so you know that. No, you know. No, honestly, I promise you. I promise you. I've never said Paul that's the skull is on today. Really? Yeah. What was schooling like for you as a little boy?

It's a really interesting question because I went to local primary schools and stuff, and then I went to age seven, a boarding school. That was, you know, a great school on one level, on many levels. But I was also not at home anymore. So that was tricky for me. What made it tricky? I just missed being at home. missed going to the same bird, you know, seeing,

seeing, you know, I think we all agreed when we were there that it was hard. But it was also, like, you know, it was a really good school. They taught you things and academically, I think it was pretty good. But it was hard on that level. It was tough. Which is why when I went from the old boys private school to the local state school in Hexon, which I asked if I could do. You made that...

I did. Yeah. Yeah. It was when I was 16. It was the summer holidays. And I thought, right, I'm going to just... I got at... I just remember leaving the house and walking across the fields, across the river Tyne up to here in my grey corduroy trousers,

and walked all the way to the town, found the local school, asked where the sixth form section was, found the star from, knocked on the door, and said, could I speak to the head of the sixth form? And the guy goes, you're all wet? And I must have looked at sight because I was just soggy. And I said, yeah, but anyway, is the head of the six? He said, yes, she is.

And he said, come in. And he said, what are you doing here? And I said, well, just making an inquiry whether you'd be interested in accepting the soggy 16-year-old next term. And she sat me down and said, so where are you now? I had a good chat. And she was really soft and she listened, you know? Yes.

The biggest thing in the world is just to read someone and listen and try to get where they're coming from. And I said, look, I just would love to be at a day school, which is mixed. I see. It was everything, yeah. And she said, oh, thank you very much. We'll have a think about it and give us your address and we'll have to speak to your parents and they just wrote a lesson, we've got no reason why we wouldn't accept you. And my parents were fine, they said, well, that's what you want to do.

They were really lovely about it. They said, you know, give it a will. At 16. Yeah, man. Wow. That's fascinating. What gave you the conviction to make that decision? Well, you know, it was an instinct.

I don't think I was objective about it. I'm not objective about many things. I tend to just go from an instinct about things. And I just felt I should explore this. Could be healthier. It could be, you know. Those moments in our childhood, which is why I always like to reflect on someone's childhood,

it shapes who we are. You know what's so fascinating to us, even when you talked about that walk to the school the first time. Yeah. I thought about the boy in the book. Definitely. Making that... Of course.

Yes. Yes, I saw a parallel right there. Yeah. But I had to, you know, the amazing words brought up was, you know, which is why in the books I draw landscapes and beauty is because I think nature has so much to give us. There's so much you can learn from being part of it and watching it. And so for me, just walking there, I had time to think, you know, I remember. wading through the river and the smell and the of the water and the trees and you could breathe

and had time to really work out what I was doing and if it was right and if there'd be noise it would have been harder for me to work out what was going on you know so I'm always so grateful for that that beauty that can can calm your soul and help you think you know Did you begin drawing at roughly that age? Yeah, I remember drawing with my sister a lot when I was 7, 8, 9. My parents were brilliant. We had this little room where we could make a mess in, and there was paper and crayons,

and we put records on and played Simon and Garfunkel and draw, you know, make a mess. And it became, like, For me, drawing then, as I got older, a sort of place to disappear into, you know, it's somewhere that I could lose myself and draw other worlds and, you know, and I sometimes start drawing at midday and it would be four o'clock. I think, where did, what? Where the day go.

Yeah. And I liked what drawing did when I showed it to people. I liked how I liked seeing their reactions to things Do you remember the first reaction that you got? I mean, you were drawing at such a young age Well, I remember at school, one of the things I've always enjoyed is making people laugh

and I said so I often did cartoons of the teachers. Of the teachers? Yeah. That's definitely going to make everybody laugh. They get passed around and then confiscated usually. I don't think they were nasty, where they were just sort of, you know, I can't remember what they were. And then I remember drawing a fish in a lesson. My teacher looked at it and said, it's a good fish.

You know, it's those moments where someone says, and I suppose for me, drawing is like a language that you can communicate things beyond the word. Word came later for me in my images. And I remember going to New Orleans and New Orleans and drawing, going into Preservation Hall and drawing those incredibly intense jazz situations and blues and bringing them back to London and saying, look, look at these guys. How beautiful are these people, you know, nice. I love the fact that you could show, reveal a beauty that people maybe. hadn't seen. Yes. And do you think that given your skills, let's look at the New Orleans example, which I've been, you're right, the jazz scene is amazing. It's amazing. Do you feel like you would have the words to say come back to London and describe what happened or you wouldn't

be able to do it with your words? You would have to. I think it had to be drawings. You'd have to draw. It's the intensity of the atmosphere and I didn't feel capable. I didn't think my words would add anything. to those. It's a good question. I don't, I don't, I don't know. But what I do know is that it's, it's like such an amazing thing to, to make messy marks on paper that then communicate something to someone else that makes them see themselves or something in a different way. Like, that to me is, blows my mind. Like, why am I, I'm sitting in an armchair with you. How did I get here?

Mainly because I'm, you know, making a mess on paper over and over and over again until it becomes something that communicates something to one of them can move them more. And I think that journey for me, you know, people often say, you know, they don't, they see an end product like you have a book there that's finished. They don't see the tens of thousands. of messy drawings that didn't quite work out that I feel now

when I see them is that they that our messy lives the process that we're in is an end in itself it's not a means to an end like like today right now with my scruffy hair

and our imperfections are perfect like we are it's an end in itself but it's not we'll never get you see what I'm saying so I feel like my journey with the book and the drawings and all of this and my house and brixon is honestly you can't even get in the door for drawings and half-finished things and things that wouldn't be worth showing you yes but you have to do them yes you have to go through the process and make a mistake after

mistake to get somewhere and but on that journey at any moment i could say here's a drawing and it would communicate something. Do you see what I'm saying? I don't know what I'm saying really. I just feel on the train on the way here, I got it really early, and I was thinking about this, and I was going through, I've got little sketchbooks, and I'm trying to make a journal, actually, for people, a blank journal that is not blank, because blank things are terrifying. So I'm doing little encouragements and pages going, try making a mess here. This is a drizzling, and it's a little tiny squeal.

But also it's perfect. It's an end in itself. Your imperfections are ends. They're great. Yes. They're great. Yes. Good for you.

Do you see what I'm saying? And all my life, you know, we talk about a journey to this place, whereas every day, you know, is important to live through. It's every mess you make can become something. When did you realize this? So, for example, when you talked about the journey, you were talking about how you took in the moment, absorbing the smell and looking at the trees.

So are you telling me that at 16, at 17, you were fully present in the moment as you are today? Not always, but I remember moments when I really was because I can remember them. So I remember being on a landscape in Northumberland, looking on the horizon at some trees. I remember thinking, if I go there now, I'll disappear into them and just be part of it. So from here where I stand, I couldn't see me there.

And so therefore, I am part of nature. We are all part of this. We're not, because I think we'd somehow divorced ourselves. Yes. I don't know why we did that. But I'm thinking, we're all just part of this. I remember thinking of myself, I remember this for a, wherever I end up.

I remember reading there's a breeze, a warm summer breeze that would come up the valley. You could smell everything, the heather, and I'm thinking I will always, always keep this. This landscape will always stay in me. I tell you, to have that ability to tap into the moment is something that so many of us as adults are trying to figure out. Yeah, interesting, isn't it? Yes, I mean, I've... I'm not better at it now.

Oh, you know, okay. I don't know, Paul. I would hope, but it is something we should seek. Absolutely. Absolutely. But I'm wondering, did you believe that art could be a profession? Oh, no. No.

Well, it was never on the Schmorgas board of choice. You read about artists, you know, and they had precarious lives, and it wasn't really a career choice. I always was drawn to people who made things with their hands, either farmers or at near a drystone waller. There was a line by Genesis, the band that said, I'd rather trust a man who works with his hands. You can see by his eyes, you know, he understands.

But it's something you go through in the making of things. It's difficult. And I remember going and staying with one of my best friends from school, who was a farmer, and working in the harvest there and loving it. and loving the connection with the land and we'd sit on the bails at night. And it was amazing.

And then he was killed, Jamie, he was killed when I was 18. So that was another one of those moments. Oh, yeah. That's like a red line in a life. How does a friend at such a young age who's 18 and is killed, how does that impact you? Grief does strange things.

And for me, I suppose in rapturept, it was like being bitten by a snake whose venom did new things every day. I didn't know what my next day was going to be like. You know, so I did in retrospect, a lot of things in reaction to that that were not great. And I remember putting him in the lowering, seeing him beat. Well, I didn't. He was low, when he's lowered into the ground, it's one. what life was going to be like now. Like, it didn't make any sense.

And one of the things I did do was I got a lift to London in someone's car. And I remember just going out and I remember getting some paper and the pen started drawing. And I couldn't stop. I sat on streets and just drew streets in Battersea. And I wandered London. And the old person offered to buy them, brand them for a couple of quid them. And so I'd tell. And I lived like that.

But that was all in reaction to a death. It was drawing was a way of making sense of things. And then there were Warpans arrived, you know. So I put the Warp in my ears and listened to Joan and I'm a trading and listened to the same songs over and over again and found myself drawing and crying. So it was a sort of therapeutic journey of, you know, then my sort of words come to an end because I was doing something I didn't quite understand.

And I suppose I was a bit like Forrest Gump who couldn't stop. I just kept moving and drawing and moving and drawing. So I think at the time I just thought, well, oh well. So it's not a very lucrative profession. But I like it. So I'm going to do it. I'm going to do it. And I'm just going to throw caution to the wind because...

Why not? Why not? Yeah. But in the back of your mind, sounds like you're still saying, but I'll get a proper job later. Yeah, still not. Paul, this is the mad thing is I always think, really? Sure about it?

You know, and, and I'm glad I'm so, you know, I'm so utterly grateful to all the people that approach me for those four years of, honestly, of sitting, making drawings, and I remember being becoming obsessed with the Royal Albaugh. I did so many times that I can do it with my eyes shut. like I love that built but people would approach me and so I said oh so what do you are that's interesting

oh well you know well if you finish it can you see it and you know and they I lived like that that's incredible yeah it's mad and so and where were you living good question so begin with I was I stay with my sister and then you know and then I remember just

renting a room and just moving around and met people and stay with them and then rented places to stay and then I remember a guy approaching me and looked at her and said, yeah, you should come and see us. We run a gallery, gave me his address.

And in the same day, hilariously, a lady approached with two children to look at what I was drawing, and she looked at it, and then they looked at it, and they walked to her. And I heard her say, that's what happened to you if you don't do your homework. Wow.

So I had all this going on, like people saying, he's on the street, don't do that. and yet I was seeing a gallery in the afternoon who then I thought it's quite, I mean when she said it I thought it's quite funny because I thought well yeah she's probably right I should have done my home

but I ended up in this gallery and they offered me a show and I did a show and it went all right and then they took me to Manhattan and I did a show Manhattan and then I ended up staying there it was a sort of hand-to-mouth existence just trusting instinct and seeing where it took me.

Yes, yes. And not having any knowledge of what was to come. And would you say that was your proper training ground, if you will, because you weren't classically trained? No, it wasn't. I mean, I think the encouragement of strangers, I just think the tiniest act of kindness can launch a career. Like, it can propel someone for the next year

if you just say, well, that mate, that's good cause for you. It can just be a whisper. You know, I remember hearing about a teacher who was at a parent's evening and he was talking to a mum and he was retiring this teacher. He was an art teacher and she had a kid at school and the mum said, you don't remember me, do you? I was here. And he said, no, what was your name?

And she told him her name and he went, oh yeah, yeah, I do you remember me you? You were great. And she said, but you don't remember that day that I'm going to tell you about it. He said, what day? He said, well, I decided that day that was my last day alive. And I came to say goodbye to everyone at school. And you were my last lesson. And she said, you came past us and you stopped and saw my drawing.

And you said, oh, well done. That's beautiful. Don't you go up. And walked on. And she said, you save my life. So thank you. And I remember but hearing that thinking, there's a fragility in us that we can all encourage.

And it doesn't take a lot. Like it can be tiny. And for me, my whole life was spent on responses to tiny actions that kept me drawing, whether it was my sister or people who said, good for you. And it wasn't like,

da-da-da-da. Right. You know what I mean? It wasn't, didn't need to be this. It was just enough. And I and and and the drawings weren't great. But you know, next day does it isn't better. And you know, I, I, I think for me, my whole life has been spent interacting and listening and being encouraged by or encouraging others because we need it, you know. We do. We do. Like you're, look at you doing this podcast with how many people it is that

listen to you that change you change their lives like you've got here somehow and people are listening to it and all these people you have through here and every day they're going I can breathe now yes and and when you talked about the act of kindness literally what came to mind was it was an active kindness that got me here was it yes and and and and then I look back it was it act of kindness that put me in the position to put me in the position here You're absolutely right. It's these little, yeah, yeah, all the way through. Yeah.

So with Manhattan, this is your first time abroad, right? At that point. Yeah, well, I'd been on holidays, but it hadn't been. Yes. So I was terrified when I got that. What year is this in Manhattan? That exhibition was 1987. All right.

So I was in New York? No. Yes, I was in New York then. We could have walked with each other. I love that. That's what you're not doing. With your page. Go, beep,

beep, me. Yes, yes, I was there. So, are I so, Manhattan? Yeah, amazing. Late 80s.

There's a lot going on. Wow, it was wild. Some people would say that was the heyday, too. You could feel the intensity of it. Like, it was so energetic and

anything was possible. And anybody was possible. talked to anyone. Yes. I talked to, it's like, and again, I did the same thing.

Like I, I, I had a bass, which was this gallery, and they showed my drawings, but most of the time, I was wondering around, staring at everything,

and going into places. And I liked, what I loved about that New Yorkers was they were so brilliantly rude, but in a funny way. Yes. You know, like I remember being on,

on the subway in this guy goes, he was, it's incredible, looking black guy like beautiful like with a hat on he looked at me said you want to hammer those bags and I said and I did but I said no no I'm fine thanks because I was

English and and I remember walking quite a lot when I got out somewhere I was on quite a long way and I saw him again he said you should have said yes I'll give me a hammer just don't be proud yes that was a huge moment

but I was like learning all this stuff and and scared, you know, it was quite frightening on one level being there. It's daunting. It was daunting. And you heard all these stories, you know, you would know all about it. Like, it's just a visitor just turning up. It's, it's, you know, New York, so many people try to compare New York to London,

but I think they're entirely different. Yeah. They're entirely different. Now I knew you work, though. You said someone brought you over. There was a gallery. Yeah. Correct?

Yeah. So were you still then going to the streets drawing? Now and again, I did that in Manhattan. You do that in Manhattan? Yeah. I remember doing these big drawings over the street. And yeah, Broadway and stuff. Yes.

Fascinated by it. But it's also kind of walkable of those days. It's really. How did then... America inform your art? That's a really good question. I think I think I was obsessed with the jazz clubs and I think their response to making music

and their freedom and love and the energy there, they, when I was drawing them, I learned a lot about drawing just because they move me. So I always say to people, when people say, I really wish I could draw, I say, well, you can draw, just not like anybody else. So just you do you. And I remember seeing these guys and they were just being, they were free. And that jazz was something, they were just doing, they were you doing you in a really big way. Yeah.

Because they just were like off the scale. Yeah, I'm a big jazz lover. Oh, you? And I've been to many of the jazz clubs in New York in particular. and improvisational jazz was big, where you just have the saxophone is doing his thing, you know, you have the trombone is doing his thing, the pianist doing her thing,

and you're right, everyone's just, they're improvising, and it's beautiful. How they're so, such strong individuals, improvising, but working with each other. Yes. It sounds like America, gave you more confidence. It's a good point that I've not really considered.

I think America and France were two cultures that were really encouraging towards making art. In England, I suppose, if you put you something different situations, England is more like, oh, you're making a drawing, that's nice,

it's fine. In America, it was, yeah, man, here, come on, do it, just do it. And in, When I drew in Paris sometimes, when I escaped the train there, you get a crowd of people discussing the drawing because drawing was such a crucial part of their culture. The culture, yes.

And I do think that none of us really know what we're doing. Do we really? We're just sort of winging it every day. We are. We are. I mean, that is so profound, Charlie, because to this day, I will tell my sons, I'm still trying to figure out who I want to be when I grow up.

Exactly. Yes. I mean, you're doing very well. You're magnificent. But I think that's right. I think none of us know. And it's very easy for us to look and look at you in all your amazingness and go, well, I'll, you know, or anyone. And that really, you know, we're all just kind of winging it and doing our best, but not really being anything more than clueless.

Exactly. Exactly. And it's okay. That's really fine. It is okay. But it's incredibly hard in a society that tells us we should have the plan, we should know, you know. Yes, have a clear plan where you, that's right. Yes.

And I feel that that's very American as well. Is it? Or should I say it's very West-centric, it feels. Yes, West-centric too. Yeah. But not more Eastern culture. But from what I understand is, you traveled all around the world. and lived, because you lived in, was it South Africa?

I did live in Cape Town. In Cape Town. So how did you, how, what allowed you, it was your art, clearly? Yeah, I was just quietly making enough to keep exploring. Okay. And I kept thinking there's somewhere else, there's something else to learn here. You know, I mean, I had some of the most profound experiences I've ever had were in, actually in Zimbabwe, where I was the first white person to pluck tea.

on a plantation in amongst 400 and I got to know them and they were some of the most extraordinary people I've ever met without question and you know it was it was it was so much poverty and suffering there was so much you know cerebral malaria was massive there that HIV rates were you know it was like God. But the spirit of those people and blew my mind in terms of what they, what they knew was true and what life was and the value of it. And so I guess I wanted to find out from other cultures if I could learn. But I didn't know I was doing that. If someone said, what are you doing? I'll go, I'm just mucking about. You know what I mean? It's like it wasn't big. You know, but I think I, I, I, I, I, they all were all, gave me this understanding that a wealth was on the inside.

I think, you know, it's funny for talking about it, because I don't think I really, really objectively realized that until I'm sitting here. Because I was, you know, going to all these places and I feel as if you are describing everything you saw there. Yeah, I think probably. Now, you're traveling. Obviously, you've lived in different areas. Yes.

Can we talk about how you moved to Brixton? Because this is early on in my UK escapade. So when I got here, I'll never forget, I said, where's the Jamaican food? Where's the good Jamaican food? Right. And everyone told me it's Brixton, it's Brickston. So we get into a taxi. myself, my wife, and my two boys.

Immediately, he says, why do you want to go there? Yeah, I used to have that. With that shriveled up face. Why would you want to go there? Little do they know. Little did they know. Yeah, it is epic.

So if we can't, we should give some Brickston some spotlight. What got you there? What do you love about it? So I used to go there a lot. I used to go to the academy and see bands. And friends used to live there. I was always being drawn there for whatever reason and always liked the energy.

And I didn't know it very well. You know, I just, again, did all my wandering around and I end up in Brockville Park. I just met all these people. Everybody seemed very chatty. Yes. Really engaging. And so, you know, and, you know, and, you know,

do a, just an eclectic mix of the diversity was just, just so, just intense and you never know who you're going to meet next. And I've been there ever since. 25 years later. Look at that. And what's incredible is like this, as you come out of my street and on the corner on Britson Hill is a, it's a cafe that is one of the most stunning communities you can possibly imagine of every type of person you can, think of is there sharing lives and talking and listening and you know from lawyers to homeless people to addicts to actors to writers to nannies to nurses it's just like this and everyone seems to congregate there and move through it and i have never known anything like that in london

i've never known anything like that in the world i don't i think it's very rare i I think we all say it. We think, wow, we have something here that we need to really look after. It's the place I put my big painting on the wall. I did it on the outside, what do you want to be when you grew up kind to the boy? That's the place. Okay.

I didn't know that. Yeah. Yeah. That's in Brixton. And I went there a lot making the book, and I was haggard and Harrowed and my house at the time. Like, what's interesting about making both books is that the first book, you know I lost my dog my lovely dill who was my soulmate

all the electrics blew in the house so I had one socket to live on and to scan all the drawings everything and because the electrician said you're going to re you'll need to rewire the house and you look like you're busy I said yeah I can't so I was going to the cafe a lot to make drawings in there you know he never wants me

Anton who runs it never wants me to pay for a coffee hour and it was he was a tough time I lost a friend during I just like you know it seems to be in the second book I lost my other dog

my mum died I lost both times I think that the suffering that that goes on in the making of them does something to the book itself. I don't know quite why that happens but even like

my car was broken into a year ago and loads of drawings are stolen from it for the book. Stuff like that. And I think maybe when you're one of the dangers of making things is that you don't have integrity with yourself or the thing you're making. I think you can skirt over things.

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Mm-hmm. So, 29. Which was never an intention. And that's, even now, you know, understanding so far about your life, I can see that this was definitely not an intention. 2019. How does the idea for the book come about? Oh, Paul. Well, it never meant to be a book.

I never thought it would be. I didn't think I couldn't make a book. What it was was a series of days of saying, I'll do this today. I'll do another drawing tomorrow. And so I did this drawing when I got home, and it was just the boy and the mole. I'd already sort of fashioned out these characters a bit. And the mold had said, what do you want to be when you grow up? And I thought, how about it should just be kind.

So I just wrote kind. And I posted it. I had a little social media. I had Instagram and got this reaction. Like, really shocking. And at the same time, I was talking. And I'm sorry, that reaction was lots of people, what, commenting? Crazy, crazy.

And being shared everywhere. Okay. And I was a bit taken aback by it. When I first, when I got really anxious and really low and was struggling, I remember seeking help for that. first time and asking about it rather than just, you know, putting my head in the centre. What is this? Why do I feel this? And it was a really hard thing to do. So I'd made this drawing of this strong-looking horse and the boy asking, what's the bravest thing you've ever said?

And the horse who says, help. So I did the drawing, scribble that out and then posted that. And again, this insane reaction, I got requests from the Canadian. military from hospitals in Australia saying, can we use this for whatever. And I went, yeah, fill your boots, you know, please. What a privilege that you're asking me, you know, just. And so these drawings were sort of being used in different places. And particularly with men, you know, and American footballers and all these people were sort of using it to say it's not weakness to us or help.

It's a strike. It's a courageous act. It's a brave thing to do if you're struggling. And so I was then getting emails from people saying, my boy has been suicidal, the fight. He saw that drawing and he asked. So I'm thinking to myself, just keep making these drawings

because someone somewhere in the world is, but again, never thought it would be a book. Never thought it would be a book. And you said you had the characters already though. No, they came bit by bit. So it was the boy in the mall first and then the fox arrived at night. And there were other characters

in the mix, you know, there were other things, but they didn't feel right, and then they met the horse. So there were four, and they all seemed to reflect different parts of me and probably others. Yes. That I wasn't consciously aware, but the other ones fed away because they're not clear enough in what they were reflecting, representing. Okay, so the boy, clearly the curiosity. Curiosity, just questions, quite fearful, wondering what life's about. Now I understand. Now I understand. Tan, you are the boy. Yeah, I think I'm asking questions all the time. Yes.

What is this and how and why? And yeah, yeah, yeah. You are like... Quite annoying probably. I mean, I keep funny, because I remember being at school. I remember in chemistry, Mr. Lewis, he was called the teacher,

and I remember putting it up my hand at the back. And he said, yes, Maxie. And I said, why are we doing this? Yes. And it was a moment, you know, because I want, It wasn't like I was disagreeing with it. I just wanted to know why we were doing any of this.

And I suppose maybe the boy has always been asking, like, what's why and what matters, what doesn't matter, you know. The curiosity. The curiosity doesn't end. The curiosity. You know, you're just digging away, aren't you finding. Constantly. Constantly.

Unerthing things. Constantly, constantly. The mole. The mole. I mean, I like, I like, I like, the, Mom makes you like us to his obsession with cake. And reaching, you know, like when things are difficult, we reach for comfort in various ways. We default.

I know, I do. Like, it's not necessarily cake, but it would be watching the same film over and over again. You know, whatever it is that we, that releases something at a quarter, whatever it is that makes us feel okay. Yes. And then the horse, I think, is probably the bit that felt like the deepest part of the way. part of us, the soul of us, the bit there's always been there and always will be the same. It's the wisest bit of us. Yes.

And then the fox, I realize, was the damaged part that circumnavigates anyone before they get close, that doesn't trust very easily that, you know, that is aggressive out of fear. Okay. and whose arc is I find the most moving because it's their love that pulls the fox right in. Yes. And, you know, love changes, reprimands don't. And so I think, and I don't really think, like, I didn't really realize this until a journalist said, so clearly these four parts are, you know, oh, okay, yeah, you're right. You know, I'm not clever enough Paul to be that objective.

It all comes from somewhere else within me. And so I have to look back and go, oh, that's what I was saying. So in a way, those four characters just then started interacting with each other. And I was always quite surprised by what they were saying. And then I think two years later, you know, made on Instagram. I mean, I've loved my journey with them. They're always so, you know, honest. The DMs are so honest.

And then I got messages from people saying, you know, I'm thinking about not being here. All these raw messages, but you know, keep making the drawings and stuff. So I did. And then I thought I would do an exhibition of the drawings. So I hired a space in the West End of London. And I wrote, I did a little thing on Instagram saying, I'm going to do, I framed 70 of these come along. and you know my mum came my sister came family came i thought you know maybe and like i think it was

it was like crazy i think someone in the street of the gallery next me said they'd reckon they were 10,000 people came in five days 10,000 yeah you couldn't get in there and i was bit like and i met people there a lot of people i remember quite a few girlfriends brought their surly boyfriends along and one guy in particular she was was five foot and he was like six feet he was huge and she said she remember her saying this is i forget his name and he was just nodding and his eyes were full of tears looking at me and he didn't he just said thank you and and then i got up i remember because i was hiding behind the desk and gave him a hug and then he just walked out and that evening was someone who said i worked with penguin

I think we should try me book. And I said, really? I don't know. Maybe I, you know, but I'm not against it. Okay. So I then met up with her and, you know, we just, again, instinct pushing along, trying to find a semblance of a narrative. But I didn't feel it ever needed to be a clear story. I felt like it was a story, it was a story about connection and emotion rather than events,

that the events were seemed to me to be secondary to what they were discovering in within themselves. I think most discoveries are internal. Yes, yes. Never once did we think, I wonder how many people were by it. But the intention was make something that helps people in some way feel more alive, more connected, less isolated. and gives them the courage to reach out and say help, give them the courage to say, I love you, give them the courage just to say, I need you to show that, you know, when have you been at your strongest, when I've dared to show my weakness, it's that.

It's like courage is something so different to what the world is telling you. It's so, so brave to say how you feel. it's so brave to ourselves. It's so brave to be vulnerable. And I think shame is a thing that keeps us all from doing that. You know, we all want to feel connected. Yes. And yet vulnerability is one of the most powerful ways of being connected.

But shame will prevent that happening. My mum, showing my mum the drawings, I had a ring binder I still have sitting down with her saying, what do you think of this order? and she would run her fingers over it and look at it. And I could tell, she had Alzheimer's so she should have to feel, you know. And she loved the mole. And every day I saw her, she'd say, well, hello, said the mole.

And so it was all this going on. And we managed to do the deadline in the end. And then it, yeah, and then it came out of that October, October 19. So October 19, which is five months before... The world folds in on itself, yeah. Right. COVID hits us. The pandemic, yeah. Pandemic hits us hard.

Yeah. How do you believe the pandemic impacted the reception of the book? It's a question I've been asked before. And I think by the time the pandemic arrived, a lot of people were reading the book. It wasn't like they read it because of the pandemic. But when the pandemic came, I think it was a source of,

just from the emails I got hundreds of thousands in my own inbox going through my website. And what else was I doing? So I would read them. And I've saved so many. And I have a file. And from a doctor in an ICU, COVID-Ward saying, your drums are keeping us alive, we read your book every morning.

A nurse saying two of my co-norses have died this week. I'm terrified. We don't have any peepee. It was early days, March 20. But I hold your book and I read a page every night. Just crazy stuff that I would, if someone had given me a brief saying, make a book that does this, I wouldn't even the gun. How does that make you feel, Charlie, to know that you've created something that has

reached in and touched the soul of millions of people? Yeah, I mean, what I would say is it hasn't reached everyone, and that's how could it? And it's fine, I'm sure there are many detractors and critics of it. And I, of course, like, that's great and fine, you know. But for those it has, it feels nothing. But privilege and gratitude, and it moves me very deeply that, you know, I'm not that wise. I'm not, you know, I'm just this bloke who felt things and wrote them down. And Doug a bit looked around for meaning.

And I find it, you know, sometimes I get overwhelmed. But like in the early year, the 2020, it did overwhelm me. And I cried a lot. randomly, both reading the stories which are harrowing, but also knowing that someone somewhere felt better because of it. So it's this kind of double-edged thing. And also this question of how on earth did that happen? What?

How do you, I mean, you must have thought about how it happened. And when I say it happened is, you probably won't like this. Can we talk about the commercial success just a little bit? Because not only has it had such a profound emotional impact, but the all-out reception, I think, is amazing. It's amazing. So 2025 by 2025, right, the book is sold. And by the way, I don't think we've even clearly given.

It's the boy, the mole, the fox, and the horse. Yes. It sold approximately 10 million copies. 10 million copies. It has been on the Sunday Times bestseller list over 207 times, making your book the longest running Sunday Times bestseller ever. In the U.S., the book has spent 231 weeks on the New York Times. bestseller list. And your book has been translated

in over 50 languages. So that, how does that make you feel? It makes me feel the same things as if one person has written to me in Toby that's kept them alive.

Okay, so hold that in one hand. In the other hand, imagine me at Cheltenham Literary Festival. My first time I spoke about the book and I was signing them and the last person in the queue who'd been standing for an hour and a half was an 18 year old boy who sang then he didn't have a book in his hand for me to sign and I said hello are you okay and he said yeah I said you waited a long time

he said sure I said can I help you said I just want you to know that I decided to stay and I said like in the queue he said no I decided to stay I'm alive I want to just to tell you that because that's what the book did so thank you and I'm looking at him and I and then he said yeah I and there was a long boy said I asked for help when I wasn't going to and he had tears in his eyes and then I had tears and then we both I just sat there. I'm just thinking if we'd made done all this for this boy, I'd have done it just for this boy. If we just sold one, I'll take that. And I stood up and I gave him a hug. And we sobbed a lot and then I never seen him since. So what I'm trying to say is those figures are amazing and I'm grateful and they they amaze me and surprise me and you know it's enabled me to do a lot of things I can I have friends who don't have much I can do all the things I couldn't do before I've rewilded some land and planted thousands of trees I've done all this stuff that I wouldn't

have been able to do before but the success to me is genuinely is the left hand is that because we don't live very long and at the end of it what are you glad of who do you know what I mean like I would swap those figures for that for that yes yeah of course because because that's meaning yeah and you knew that at 18 yeah so meaning is the thing what has meaning or it doesn't and I'm not anti money I just think you can can help you do all kinds of great things. But I think for me, you know that what goes into my heart and what I'm always grateful for is these people who I meet

sometimes on the street. And there's a guy who came up to me the other day. He must have been his 90s. And he goes, oh, yeah, you're the mole bloke. Are you the guy, the mole bloke? And I'm... Yeah. And he gripped my hand, and he had tears in his eyes.

His hands just shook. I was that, mate. And then shuffles off. And then another woman who's, I know, works with kids who have rough, tough lives. And she texts me and said, okay, so your book helps some of my boys have, it gave them permission to be kind. Make another one.

And bloody hurry up. This is a couple of years ago. And it's that. That, because all these lives, you know, like, what's going on? You'll never know. And that's the great thing about a book where you make something, you make a cake to someone else eat, so you know, whatever we do, is that it's busy while you're eating spaghetti, watching the telly.

So those, all these things, someone might be pulted by now or in secondhand shops, someone might be reading one going, this is working. Yeah. It's the reception, the emotion that came from the reception. Is that what then inspired the film? Probably. Because I used to lie in bed a lot and look at the ceiling and could see the film. I could see scenes from it.

And often used to wonder what it would look like if the boy moved. And if there was music added. And if the snow was really falling. And some people I know don't read. And so it would be another iteration that would be. reach different people. And so I thought, yeah, we should try and do this. But I was always worried that it would be made by,

it would be made in the way that wasn't really done in a way I had dreamt of. Do you see what I'm saying? I do. I was always scared that it would be. But you've never made a film before. No. No.

Clueless. The one thing I had seen before in filmmaking was Richard in his office, Curtis. He has post-it notes and he writes words and bits and shove moves them around. How does this happen? Because that in itself

seems like that could be a movie. I love him. He's the kindest, funniest man you'll ever meet. I mean, what, Notting Hill, for weddings in a funeral, Mr. Bean, I understand. Love Act for letting. I was on the set.

I drew for him on Love Actually. We auctioned all the drawings for comic relief. How did I meet Richard? Yes, and how do you land on the set? I know. I don't know. It was, you know, I think in life, if you stay open, you meet people, you meet other people,

you meet other people, and I knew I was a good friend of, Paige was a friend of my met in London and she married Matthew. So I got her Matthew and Matthew's sister, Emma, was Richard's girlfriend. You know, you just end up getting to know people. And years later, you still know them and you're doing stuff. Land on the set of life. Yeah, I mean, my journey with comic relief and Richard has been really one of the most moving things. because, you know, if you can just, if you can, if you can share what you do,

whatever it is you do, and I, you know, so we made t-shirts and for comic Riefe and made silly money. So it's been such a treat for me to say, okay, use me. And I'll do drawings or we've done lots. So with Love Actually, I was late to the Love Actually train. I love love it. Because when I got here to the UK, everyone said, look, have you seen Love?

Love actually, you have to see it. Did they? Right? During Christmas, you must watch this. And so I didn't the first year. I didn't the second year. I didn't the third year. By the fourth year, I decided let me sit down.

And now I watch every Christmas. Every Christmas. So sweet. So your role on that set was to draw. Yeah. To draw what? I did.

I did drawings of behind the scenes. Hugh Grant having makeup on, Rowan Atkinson having costumes. I just threw everyone, you know, doing normal things, eating and chatting, the lot of drawings of Liam and Rowan and Richard in discussion about a scene.

Okay. I also witnessed some really remarkable things on this. I like watching Richard draw out of Rowan what he was looking for, take after take after take at three in the morning in Selfridges when he was, Ryan was being the shop, the guy who sold the, yes, all that stuff. I watched, it was like, I think just watching gifted people work with each other.

It's such a moving, but working so hard and failing and trying, trying, you know, that scene was shot 30 times. Wow. And you go, okay, okay, so it isn't that easy. These things are not that easy. Yes. And I suppose making my film with 200 other people on Zoom, mainly during lockdown, was really intense because they worked so hard at it.

And it was difficult. and, you know, it was 24 frames a second, every frame was hand drawn, you know. Yes. Can I say something that I truly appreciate it? The boy in the film seems to me to be racially and ethnically ambiguous. Yes. This is coming from a man of color who was a little boy of color. Yes.

I wanted him to be from anywhere. Thank you for that. Yeah, I know. Because I grew up. very rarely seeing any, especially animated characters who look like me. Right. And so those characters always felt like a distance.

You know, like looking at, say, Charlie Brown, you know? Yeah, right. It was, oh, Charlie Brown, I could never be Charlie Brown. I could be friends with Charlie Brown, but I can't be Charlie Brown. Right. But watching your film, I could see, because I watched it with my boys, 11 and 14,

they could see themselves. Could they really? in the boy, you know. And I think that's important. Because the boy is obviously me, but we want to push the boy to be anyone. Yes. That's great. Yeah, very important.

Thank you. Very important. And so I could see that that was something that you contemplated, you know? We tried to do it from every angle possible. Yeah. And I'm sure it's not, it's far from perfect. it could have been a lot better. Had we had another five years and another X pounds, could have made a better film.

Sure. Well, you know. The film did all right. I mean, you won a little Oscar for it. That's all, I mean, you know. Again, not a goal. Not even, I mean, for me, the great achievement would be managing to finish it. And for a long time we didn't think we would.

And I remember when the BBC were thinking about showing it. thinking about showing at Christmas, I thought that was the most mind-blowing thing imaginable, which it was. In the same breath, I had the bizarre experience of being at the Oscar nominees' lunch in Hollywood, thinking that it was going to be one thing and then getting there, and sitting with the table with all these nominees who had anything but easy, glamorous lives. You know what I love is you mention that in your Oscar speech. Do I? Yes.

at the very end of your Oscars I'm so tired I can't remember what I said Oh my goodness It was beautiful It's beautiful Matter of fact You have to read the comments Have you read the comments

No You must read So on the Oscar The official Oscar YouTube Okay The clip is there And the comments are just like Charlie needs to win a Nobel

Peace Prize No they don't No I promise you I promise you there are there there there are I can barely wash my hair or get my shoes on

I'm not you know he needs it when but you but you at the very end you say something along the lines of you know that this is a room filled with people oh yeah I remember feeling that yes that was you remember what you said there

I remember something about them being brave yes I think to make anything I think making a film is brave I think there's so much it's so hard to make. I mean, for every film that's made, there's thousands who don't make it. You know, like, it's a very tough thing, and they're brave people, and they're putting themselves on the line, and nothing is easy, you know. The Oscar's like the most surreal, amusing, great thing. It's almost wasted on me. But maybe, in part, one of the values of the Oscar,

is that it then widens out the audience, so more people will be touched by the film. Paul, you're absolutely right. I find, I find talking about this, like I, you know, normally I don't. Normally I, like, I reply to emails and I carry on and, you know, have a coffee. And, you know, I tend to sort of quietly keep all this within me and save the emails and don't talk about it. Because part of me feels like I break if I really did take really, do you know what I mean? I guess so it's that kind of thing

that makes you go okay sale this Oscars beautiful thank you but not really digest an indication of something yes there are a litmus test there are a

marker of some sort and I think that's what in making the next book I think you know there was a moment in the pandemic where people wrote to me and said, I just cannot see how I'm going to get through this. I can't see your way through this. And I remember thinking, I remember writing something saying, can you see your next step, however small? And they went, yeah, I can see that.

I said, just take that. So I then drew that. I see. And put that in the book. This is the new book. So that page is in that. So a lot of the drawings in the pandemic are in this book. So this is always remember.

Yeah. This is the new one. And this is a continuation of the story. So we get the same, we get the mole, the box, the horse, the boy. The book came out before the pandemic. And then during the pandemic, ensuing years, I was doing still drawing. I remember thinking, do we make another book? Do we?

We don't need to. I don't have to. But I remember thinking if it feels right and there's a number. enough to say, we'll say it. I know that you introduce a weasel. A weasel. A weasel. That's the kind of the ground zero of the book is when,

so the boy's deepest fear is probably, you know, abandonment. And so in the first bit, he's asking a lot of questions, like, what happens if I lose you? And always says, we're forever even if I'm not here. And then there's a suggestion of the storm. And then the storm hits. The ball horses, when the storm comes, just remember who you are. And it does.

And the boy says, this storm is making me tired. And the horse says, storms get tired too, which was a pandemic during that was on lamp posts in NLA and like hospitals in Sydney and stuff. Like weird things to see. And then the weasel, as you say. says, oh, what are you doing here? And the boys says, I lost my friends. And the weasel says, well, that was careless.

Are you sure they didn't lose you? Would they have left you if they loved you? So it's that deep thing you get, like, my fault. Oh, why did they? Is there something I said? Did I do something? Have I done? I screwed up, didn't I?

I must have known. And it's like, this is why I've ended up here. It's my fault, my fault. And it's that, but he, the next page is when he tries to remember. I know my mind can play tricks on me and tell me I'm no good that it's all hopeless. But I need to remember who I am. And I wrote those words, an inseparate page, that I am loved, my identity, I am loved, that I'm important and I bring to this world things no one else can.

So I'll hold on. He chooses to hold on because he remembers. Who he is. Who he is. Yes. Yeah. Yes. In the darkest time.

Remember, remember. Let me ask you something. When was the last time you really thought about how you love? Not who, how. Most of us don't. We're moving fast, doing life, hoping love just shows up and sticks. But that's not how real connection works. That's not how lasting love works.

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For one night in each city, tickets are almost sold out, so grab yours now through the link in the description. I can't wait to see you there. As you're writing this and illustrating, would you say that the darkest period of your life was happening while you were creating either this book or the first book? Was that the darkest period? I don't think it was. What was the dark, is that we could tap into? But they stay with me. Yes.

I have memories that they're, they're dark moments where, you know, things catch up with you, things you've been running from. And it causes this, what do I do with this? What have you been running from? Well, I think, you know, there was some, like when I was a boy at that boarding school, there was some dark things that went on. and then losing friends. And I think we all have periods which are extremely difficult and cause us to go into dark places and we don't know what to do when we're in them.

And sometimes I'm not even sure we actually recognize we're in them. We're just fighting to stick, to state, and we eat cake or whatever it is that's something, helping. It's often in retrospect, we go, wow, that was, that was hard. Or we're talking to a friend and we find ourselves talking fast and we start getting emotional, tears poor and we don't even we didn't even know it was there. And I think a lot of our lives are spent with things going on that we're not hugely aware of, you know. Or there can be real like cancer or whatever it is suffering that's obvious, but there's other stuff that we're processing from long ago

that's deep within us deep. We all have it. And so I suppose I can't put a finger on that was the darkest time in my life. But there have been times when I've been aware of it and it's caused me to seek help or cause me to question or need to process something. And so I think I've drawn on those times. And, you know, and the return to love, you know, the moral says, where does it do? Where did your strength come from when he reconnects from remembering I am loved? Yes.

It's that notion of light, a notion of connection, the notion that in spite of everything you're held, that you're known, you're loved. Has that been the antidote? Has loved been the antidote for your mental health? Yeah, it's been a huge thing. I mean, that vulnerability and the act of it is like a window into a whole new world of existence

and possibility and freedom. That you can tell, you can say this. And it's the most courageous thing. And it's just letting a door. open. And I used to be terrified of that door because what was what was going to happen if I dared open it like, oh my God, just keep it down, you know, carry on stoically. And wow, you know, and it's not easy and it's not immediate, but it's this process of discovery that your your visceral root you brought humanness and humanity is incredible and universal yes universal like you're not

this free everybody we're all so just talk about it and connect and connect has that helped with because i know anxiety is something that i've uh have uh had challenges with right uh for for many years yeah i understand this is definitely same huge Same for you. So how do you manage that? How do you manage your anxiety? So I remember, I think I've had low level anxiety a lot, and I've managed it for a level sometimes.

And presents itself as what I thought I was dying. Like I thought, my heart was going so fast that I was sort of holding onto the wall. And like, what is this? And a friend of mine is a doctor. And I called him, I said, I think, I think I might be dying. He said, describe to me what you feel.

I said, my heart's going a thousand miles. I don't know. I have to cling to you. He said, I think I'm going to talk you down from this. And he said, the first thing you need to do is not be frightened of what you're feeling. Don't be frightened of it. It's okay. And he taught me how to not be fearful of the fear itself.

Don't be anxious of your anxiety because that just means it builds like a wall. Is there a total? technique that you could share that was effective. He taught me, well, there was the breathing thing. He said, you're a shallow breather. Okay. So he did the four seconds in, hold it, four seconds out, do that for two minutes. So I did that.

And then we discussed a lot about how anxiety can be triggered by nothing at all. It doesn't need a valid context or circumstance. It can just come out of nowhere, which it still does. I'm just like, what? Yes. What is that? Yes. So I do breathing and I tell myself to not fear it.

And there's a page in the book about that. Sometimes things spin out of control. And remember that you are not a storm. It's not you. So it's okay. And then obviously in times when it's not going on, practice things that help you. Whether it's meditation, nature, running.

Some pray, some breathe, some meditate, all these things. Drawing. Drawing. Yes. Connecting with what you love. Talking, talking. Don't be frightened of what you feel. Don't be ashamed of what you feel.

Music. You're like swimming in cold water. You can encourage your healthy. I'm not a neuroscientist and I would never pretend. to know that I understood these things, that I know what works for me and some of my friends is, I think for me that the journey has been to get to place where I'm sitting here with Yipal, and if I wasn't being filmed, I'd say the same thing, which is that that open that door and talk about it. I have plenty of friends who didn't, and they're not here anymore.

and it nailed them and I sometimes re-re-rewe, it's pointless regret it's a silly thing but imagine if we'd had the time to really talk about it it's not weakness it's not a failing

a lot of men feel like it's such a failing to struggle with this it's perfectly normal in this world we live in a crazy world and if you're sensitive you feel things you're going to feel this it's like you're with you you're an extremely connected brilliant minded highly sensitive individual who's bound to feel anxious at times

because you care so much the more you care the I think the more anxious you're going to be about your kids the world what's what's going to happen tomorrow what's going on here like I think not to feel that is almost being numb So wow, yeah But I think it's how we We respond to that And how we look after ourselves

You know, that really matters And I know, you know, sitting here Like in saying these words That I have like Such a long way to go On the way here, I was panicking I was going to miss the train I forgot to lock the door

I had to zoom back I had locked it I just thought I had I have that whole thing going on Go ahead. Did I, didn't I, did I? Did I? Okay, I'll go back.

Minutes to spare when I wrote a station. I'm just a sort of stumbling, fumbling, semi-interverted person who doesn't still is winging it. But I think we can all, we're learning from each other, and the more we can talk about it, the more we'll learn, you know. Absolutely, absolutely. Like, I don't know much, Paul.

but it just acknowledging it there you go yeah I think that's the key to everything is connection communication um

putting your hand up going this is me this is me why are we doing this why are we by the but I don't mean to get all heavy like I I don't mean to

this is a heavy conversation and and what I love most about these conversations is that this is one of those rare opportunities for so many people. Right. This is your opportunity to just reflect with no judgment whatsoever. Yeah. You know, and go back to Zimbabwe and sit there picking the tea, you know.

That's what this opportunity is about. That moment. Okay. So when I was picking the tea, plucking tea is difficult. Like I earned one cent, literally. Everyone else is making two dollars a day, which is not much. But, and I remember this guy, John, who was trying to teach me to pluck. And he was laughing at me because, you know, he was, the, the elegance of his movements was just like, it's like a machine. And they were laughing at me. And there was one time at lunchtime when everyone, we were all

laughing and John, I remember John stopping, like he was just looking at me. You know, you get to the moment where this, this strange pause and he was nodding. And I was like, what? He said, you're just the same, aren't you? And I said, yeah, he said, we're just the same. We're all just the same. And it was just like, oh, wow, humanity is just, he is, White boy from Battersea, John Sub-Saharan, poverty-stricken, you know. And we had this moment when I went. And it was, that moment lasted and lasted and lasted and lasted. And we was like, yeah.

And I could see his lights going on and mine. You know what I mean? Oh, yeah. It's interesting. I feel like we do this, we do it to this day, but we have to be fully connected and emotionally aware in order to fully fully download.

Download. Yes. And willing and open. Yes. There is. All this division, but come on, it doesn't need to be.

No. I mean, this is, you can argue that we're, we're more divided today than ever. You can really make that argument.

You could, yeah. Yeah. I am, also, you know, we haven't talked about, so you were diagnosed with ADHD, is that correct?

Yeah, or various people, the doctor said, I don't know whether you're diagnosed, but yeah, I mean, people have said, you're on the spectrum, which I think, fine. Okay, he's like, yep. I don't mind that. This is me. And it's evident to me that I definitely struggle with it

because in conversations, my brain will drift into eight different areas, and people say, is Charlie here today or not? Well, I see Charlie is definitely here today. I feel very present here. You were here. But sometimes, like, I'm just removed. I'm thinking about ideas or something isn't holding me in the moment.

Okay. And or I'm unaware that I'm not even there. Ah, I see. Which is why it shocked me when my friend said, is Charlie here today or isn't he? I'm like, oh, I wasn't aware that I'm sometimes not. Yeah. You know, people sort of say, or used to say to me, your attention span is terrible. And yet, and yet you managed to do all these drawings.

You've got to have real attention to do them. And I think I realize that the things we can do when we struggle with attention issues that hold us, that so absorb us that we, and it's a place that I, with drawings, I can just disappear into and I can just, and there's something about, you know, I've got this iPad here where, um, I can scribble on. So I have this and this. I normally draw the ink,

but for the sake of argument, I can make marks. And I can similarly do. Sometimes if I'm on the phone, I find myself drawing the boy, you know, on a branch without even realizing what I'm thinking what I'm really doing.

It just, the boy just... Just comes out. Or, you know, or I'll be thinking about... Talking about what I'm doing in the morning or someone's talking to me and I'll be listening. But, you know, I'll be... You know, this comes out, you know.

Oh, yeah, there's the horse. You see what I'm saying? So you see it. But the lines keep me focused. The lines are actually... Making the marks. Okay. It's something about making marks.

that calms me down. So if you're making, can you make- And holds my attention. So could you make marks and the two of us have a conversation at the same time? You could do that? Yeah. Okay, could we continue our conversation and you?

And I'll just keep drawing. And you doodle a little bit. Okay. So let's talk about while doodling. This is probably the best topic is friendship. Friendship. Oh, yeah. With your friends in your friendship circle, what do you do?

What's a Charlie hangout friend hangout? Are you playing poker? Are you watching reality television? You know, we talk, it varies. My friends are quite eclectic and very different. So we all have really, and they bring out different parts of me. Okay. Which is why when someone dies, you sometimes.

lose that part of you that they brought it up which really interesting that is i've lost quite a few friends and the bits we used to laugh about and the silly noises we made and the so on unless i can they're so unique and when i lost barney lovely barney my dog who was also my friend there was a language i used with him and i used to say every morning when i before i've heard him i used to say you're an extremely good little chap, right? And I'd extend the word extremely. And he'd go crazy with the word extremely, because you're extra, extra, extra special like that.

And it was his language. And what's amazing for me with those words is that Column, my Irish friend's daughter, Amelia, who's four, when we were making the book together, I would sometimes, she would say, how did he speak to Barney? She's like, I say, you're extreme. And so she now, he's, he films a running around the go and going,

you're extra special. You're extremely good little. And so for me, that that's something that hasn't died. And I suppose friends to me, going back to the original, are we can relish the uniqueness of parts of each other that only are there with each other. And I love that. And they're friends who I can, you know,

People's, you know, doing nothing with friends is never doing nothing, is it? And that's a line from a book, which I think I like, because you don't need to be doing a thing. You don't need to be going to football or watching a book. You can just literally do this and chat or go for a walk and talk about anything. Just sitting in silence is doing an awful lot. You need to fill it, you know? Yes. Now, you mentioned something that's near and dear to my heart, and that was when you said that

when someone passes, when a friend passes away. there's something lost, right? Yeah. So often on We Need to Talk, I've referred to a friend of mine named Andre Smith. He was my best friend. He passed away a few years ago. And you said something that now I'm just reflecting on for the first time, and that is that I notice that there's a part of me that died with him. Yeah.

And so I wonder. you said you've mentioned you've you've had many friends who have yeah who have past too many how do do you feel like you've properly grieved for them that's a great question I would say in honesty no um but I'm I think grief for me is going in installments and When I was a kid, I had a record by Art Garfunkel. And one of the lines was, reality, it's not for me, and it makes me laugh. And I remember thinking, I like that because reality, I can only take in small doses. Otherwise, it gets too much.

I think probably the subconscious is quite good on one level about drip feeding stuff to us. because sometimes it's just overwhelmed yeah too much too much but I think probably what I don't do enough of which I should probably do

is doing what you and I are doing that hence the title of your podcast because I think there's something about the act of talking I think takes teaspoons of pain out and it never goes back I don't think it ever returns

It's a teaspoon, but it's something. Yes. And so the more you talk and process and let go of. And I remember when I was young reading somewhere that so much of life is about letting go, and I got really cross at that. I think, no, it's not, it's, but it is learning to let go. Yes. But we're learning through, as you mentioned, through conversation.

Yes, we are. Through connection. Yes. But what we also know, unfortunately, for men in particular, that our social circles shrink. Yes, they do. So as we all get old. I mean, for everyone, our social circles shrink when we get older,

but it's disproportionate for men. Yes, it is. Yes, it really is. Yes. I read that really recently as well, that the statistics are alarming. And since COVID, they've got worse. Yes.

And a good friend of mine the other day, who is so able and capable and bright and, you know to anyone looking on the surface he has everything he just called me up and then I said how are you doing he said I'm really lonely do you get lonely and I said yeah I do get lonely he said well that's work at not being lonely then and it it struck me and I thought you know it's something that does take effort yes that these default relationships because you're around someone and therefore you don't have to make the effort. There's a different thing.

But so many men, they think someone dies, they move away, this happens, this happens, and people, you know, the ground gets thinner humanly. So you need to choose friends and fight for them. If I work in it and have the courage, ever since he said that,

I thought, whoa, that was a courageous thing to say. one could read your books, watch your film, and say, you know, this is spectacular, right? Another could read them, watch, and say, this is a faith-driven message. Where do you sit with faith? You know, faith is interesting. I mean, I think I have friends on the whole spectrum of faith. of atheism right through to strong faith. The one thing I have strong faith in

is that love wins. Whatever that love is, it wins. That loving you, loving my neighbor, having the understanding that putting weapons down and talking wins. that the enemy that has just ripped me off or done something, if I can see round the back and see why, what's the wider context for this,

having the faith that if I love him or her, we will, she or he will change and it will heal our situation. And my biggest struggle, you know, is the idea that I can love myself and my neighbor. I can't do that very well. That's what the journey of this has been all about, is how do you see yourself?

How do you hold yourself? How do you value yourself? How do you not throw yourself away in situations? How do you keep believing that you're enough that you're worth it. And faith pays a huge part in that. Yes. I think if you can somehow be grateful for any situation you're in,

it's a good thing and not beat ourselves up. Yes. Because I'm a great one for that. You know, in this second book, there's a line where I say, you'll have critics. Thor says you'll have critics. Make sure you're not one of them. Because I can be, you know, like, you know,

here I'm talking to you and I'm, trying to give my best side. But, you know, I can get home and go, oh, Charlie, why did you say that? Right. What are you doing? What you think, you know, and look at you, your genes. Why get some new genes?

And I don't know, it's like, like, don't, yeah, don't be that critic. Don't be that critic. Don't be that. Give yourself a break. Give yourself some grace. Like, this is so poetic because so every morning I do, and I've done this now for almost seven years.

Right. I try to do it consistently is a gratitude exercise. So I identify three things from the previous day that I'm thankful for. And I'm going to tell you, Charlie, every morning, boom, pop up. Sometimes I have three, sometimes I'm five, six, seven. This morning, I don't know what it was. I was struggling. I was struggling.

I was thinking, oh, my gosh, what am I thankful for yesterday? Like, what was it? What was it? And I ended on, I got through it. Wow. You know, I'm here. Right. There you go.

You know? Right. But it's the basics. Yeah. It is the, I'm breathing. There you go. Exactly. I'm alive.

Yes. I can move. The basics. And you know what that exercise has done for me is it's now almost rewired my mind to look for Oh wow. The moments in the day. Really? so that the next, the following morning, I can now recall that.

Okay, so you can, they're lodged in you. Yes. And that wasn't the intention, but that's what's happened, which I find to be beautiful. So tomorrow morning I will most likely say, just having that conversation with Charlie, I'm thankful for it. Yeah, well, right now, I'm utterly grateful for it. what I'm scared of is going home, going, why did you talk about that? Really? That's the critic.

And I need to go, you just sit down because I'm going to be grateful now for getting there. Finding Paul's studio. Having the courage to go in the door. find out he's a spectacular human not screwing up too much in what you say you know thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you yes exactly we need to tell the critic to sit down

just just sit down a second because right now and anyone who's listening you know or watching and isn't too bored by this just be aware that you're amazing and breathe and say thank you for being right here and that you're okay. I have to say, Charlie, first is I know on behalf of an endless number of people, truly thank you. thank you for not just the works, the film, the books, the art, but the warm hug that you have given us. We deeply, deeply, deeply appreciate that.

And I know I speak for many. But I'll speak for myself right now and say that. And this is me being bold. This is me being courageous. Okay. But I absolutely love you. Thank you, Paul. Absolutely.

I love you too. You know, with what I know of love, I do. Yes, with what I know about love. And, you know, it was actually the mole. The mole. The mall. Is the mole of everyone's favorite, by the way? Or no?

Not everyone's, but I think a lot of people say, he's my spirit animal. That's usually the most of the mother cake comes up. Oh, yeah. That's me. The mole. Yeah, the mole. Because the mole, I believe at one point, the mole says, you know, I'm glad we're here, but really wanted to.

I'm glad we're all here and I'm glad you're here. Yeah. But deep down wanted to say, I love you. Thank you. But didn't have. And I'm so quick to tell people, and quite honestly, I'm so quick to especially tell men, glad you're here. Glad we're here. Yeah, that's interesting.

But not, you know what, I love you. You know? Yeah, that's so lovely. Yeah. I mean, it takes me a long time to say those things. I will take this conversation, this conversation I'm going to take, truly, and it will stay with me forever. Yeah, I agree with that. Yeah.

Yeah, I'll remember lots of things about it, but I'll always remember how you made me feel rather than what was said. primarily. I'll go away from here feeling loved and really grateful that I came. So thank you. Thanks for showing me. Thank you. Can I see what have you been doodling on over there? Are you done? Five minutes a day. Get a blank pad and a soft pencil and just for two minutes draw something even if it's abstract, make some marks. It can be words or a drawing, or it can be one of your kids,

or it can be anything. And then you can either throw it away, don't criticize it, do it, and leave it, tear it out and put in a drawer, and do that every day. Every day. Every day. And then do I ever,

should I go back and reflect? If you want to. Okay, but it's not necessary. Think of it like training for a game. You're practicing. You don't need to go and look back at what you're practicing. But in the same breath, if you enjoyed it and you want to, there's no rules. There's no rules.

You can do what you want. You're free to look at them or not. But what I would say is just enjoy the process rather than trying to get a result. So see the process as an end. And it's like how you feel when you make the marks is what it's about rather than what the marks look like at the end. Yes. So the process is enough rather than how does it look now? Than the destination.

100%. And I know that's a cliche, but I really, with drawing, I really believe that's true. Like, I think if you can enjoy how it feels, it becomes like it's addictive. And take it with you on a journey, draw the back of the driver's head or, you know, draw what you see over there or draw what you feel. I'm anxious. Draw the anxiety. Yes. In lines.

I did a drawing last night. And I drew all these trees. crazy trees. And it was, they were, because I was feeling anxious about getting a train to come here.

And, and then I did a tiny leaf falling. And the mole says, that's how you feel. But the leaf is all we see. So all this turmoil is outside. So talk about it.

Talk about it. Okay. Which goes to the connection that we talked. Which goes to the connection. So, but I was started by just scribbling up. Wah. Here it is.

Look, I'll show it to you. Oh, wow. That was last night. Oh, wow. Or whatever, this could be what you feel. This could be what you feel. This leap is all we see, and there's the leap.

So tell us. So we can't see this. We can only see really that. That, yes. So what are you feeling right now? Because you need to communicate this. I see it. And so all I'm saying is that's what I do last night.

But it began with like, oh no, oh my gosh. I'm going to, I've got to get a train. And I'm going to have to talk to Paul. Is he going to ask me questions I can't answer? All the... Yes, exactly. And you beat yourself into a state of anxiety, so I drew it. Thank you so much.

Oh, do you want to see the drawing? Can we see it? Can we see it? It's not very... You know, just did that again. You did it again. You did it again. Okay.

It says, oh my gosh. When did it? You'll look back and see how hard it was and just how well. Well, you did. Oh, my goodness. That is beautiful. Do you want to send it to? Please, please, please.

Please. Okay. I can email to you now if you want. Oh, please. Please send that. But we can't say our email address here. Okay. Yeah.

You all want full of email. I'll send it to, for sure. Okay. Now. All right, super. Thank you. That is it. Yeah, that was lovely.

Thank you for having me. And I hope it's made some sense. Oh, my gosh. It was beautiful. It was everything it was supposed to be. Really? It was everything it was supposed to be. Okay.

Yes. Well, I've loved it, and your chair's very comfy. You're so easy to talk to. I mean, everyone will say that. Oh, my gosh. And you're doing such a great thing. It's such an important thing, this. Thank you.

I feel this is my art. Yeah, well, you're good at it. Sit down for it. You're brilliant. Sit down, sit down. Sit down. Get out of here. Get out of here.

Thank you. I love, love, love, love, love, love, love, Charlie Mackaysey. I do. One of my favorite conversations, not just of we need to talk. One of my favorite conversations in life. Do these conversations ever make you reflect on your life? Oh, all the time.

While I'm in conversation, many times, I often want to start reflecting on my own life, but I realize that the moment I do that, I'm leaving the moment with the guest, and I don't want to. I'm trying my hardest to stay present fully, but when I leave, it will just play out in my mind. You know, what I notice about these conversations is that I feel like the guest opens the door of vulnerability and then closes it. And some guests keep it open for longer, but then eventually it closes and you have to work yourself back out to a place of vulnerability. Charlie came in and he said, I'm going to open myself up to you, and he never shut the door,

ever shut the door. And you can see him reflecting on moments in life that he had not ever. And it just shows you how profound having a conversation is. And he said that over and over again. A conversation can change your life. and I think this changed his life and I know it changed mine. It's going to stay with me forever.

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