We Need To Talk with Paul C. Brunson - Author Will Storr: Status Impacts Our Choice Of Sexual Partner! FOMO Can Cause Early Death?!

Episode Date: September 17, 2024

We Need to Talk: In this episode, Paul dives into the critical role status plays in our relationships. He explores why couples engage in "status games" and how our evolutionary drive for status impacts our pursuit for sexual partners. His guest this week is Will Storr, award-winning journalist and Sunday Times bestselling author of The Status Game, The Heretics, Selfie, and The Science of Storytelling. Together, they unpack how understanding status can help us build stronger, long-lasting relationships. Learn more about Will Storr's work here: https://g2ul0.app.link/lV7aQOFvTMb (00:00) Introduction (1:30) What Is Status and How Do We Define It? (2:23) Why Is Status So Important in Modern Society? (2:58) 1st PTC (3:22) How Status and Connection Impact Happiness (4:15) The Role of High Status in Tribal Societies (5:52) How Status Shapes Our Identity (6:56) The Difference Between Superficial and Meaningful Connections (10:20) 2nd PTC (11:44) Are We Doomed to a Culture of Doom and Gloom? (13:30) How to Handle the Loss of Celebrity Status (16:17) Navigating Multiple Status Games in Life (18:32) Sponsor - Tinder (19:33) The Link Between Status and Suicide: What You Need to Know (21:31) How to Support Someone Losing Their Status (22:24) 3rd PTC (22:54) Is Modern Dating Being Destroyed by Dating Apps? (24:41) Does Social Media Affect How We Behave in Real Life? (26:16) How Status Displays Differ in Hookups vs. Serious Relationships (30:23) 4th PTC (31:41) What Is 'Detect and Protect' Mode in Relationships? (34:44) Why We Crave Connection with the Same People (38:18) Why My Partner and I Decided Not to Have Children (42:51) How Childhood Unhappiness Can Lead to Adult Success (44:22) How to Overcome Jealousy and Insecurity in Relationships (45:48) Why Loving Yourself Is Key to a Healthy Relationship (48:56) The Most Meaningful Conversation I’ve Ever Had (51:42) My Biggest Takeaways From This Discussion -- Tinder: https://tinder.com/en-GB Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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A snack parents can feel good about and the same delicious taste kids can't get enough of. All made with no artificial dyes. Try Welch's fruit snacks today. Will Storr is a master storyteller and deep thinker whose work has captivated audiences worldwide. His insights into the human mind. particularly the role of status feel like he's offered a cheat code to our lives.

He's written six books and his research spans 17 years, focusing on the neuroscience behind what drives a human on a day-to-day basis. He understands what leads to our deep insecurities and what it really takes to build a long-lasting relationship. In this discussion, we'll peels back the layers of our innate drive for status and connection, revealing how these fundamental needs shape our identities, relationships, and our own sense of self. This conversation promises to challenge your assumptions and provide a roadmap to a fulfilling life. Before we get into it, I want to ask you for a favor. We want to make sure

these impactful conversations get to as many people as possible. By following this show and leaving a review, you help these conversations reach the people they need to. If you send a screenshot of your follow and review to the We Need to Talk Instagram page, I'll pick 10 of you to come down here to the studio to meet me, the guests, and let us know who you'd like to see on the show. Thank you. Okay, let's get into the conversation. So how would you define status?

Yeah, so status has a very bad reputation for various sort of evolutionary reasons. I think the useful way to see it is that. that we state as is our reward for being of value to the human family. So when we prove ourselves as being a valuable person, people see us as better that we raise in status in their eyes. And so that's really all it is. And I think when people think of status, especially in this capitalist world to live in,

they think of the Kardashians and, you know, or Logan Paul or, you know, people who are show offs and, you know, gaudy and loud and, and that really isn't what status is about. Status is literally being of value. you know, feeling like I'm valuable to other people, being respected by other people. Nobody likes to be disrespected. No, likes to be called a rude name. Right.

That's really all it is. We all like to feel that we are, yeah, valuable in some, in some important way. And I've seen in your writing that you've suggested that it's about feeling valuable with those nearest and dearest to us. Yeah, that's right. So, so we play status games with the people around us. So we worry most about our reputation in the eyes of people that are sort of close to our. us in our lives and are kind of relatively near in status to us. So somebody in a low socioeconomic job, won't necessarily care what some Wall Street banker thinks of them because they were

relevant to them, that they care what the person over the road thinks about them. So that, that tends to be how we compete for status is those nearest to us. Now this bit that we're about to get into blows me away. I've always read that our happiness as a human being is based on our connection with other human beings. I'm sure you've heard the same thing. But this is not what Will says. Will says that it is impossible to be happy if we lack a connection in addition to lacking status. Not just psychologically unhappy, we always become physically unwell. So it's quite well known these days that a lack of connection, feeling of loneliness, is extremely bad for your health.

By some estimates, it's worse than smoking, which is just an extraordinary finding. But it's also the same lack of status. So if you have a lack of status, you're more likely to die early. You've got a higher chance of dying early. Because your subconscious brain, your human brain, decides there's something wrong with your life, there's something going badly wrong with your existence. So it switches you into this kind of high-stress state,

which is very bad for the body long term. So we can become very physically unwell and die sooner if we are chronically lacking in status and also chronically lacking in connection. It is evolution wanting us to be a successful member of a collaborative group. They're both essential. We've got to connect into that group and serve that group. And this is such a simple question, but I'm trying to understand why.

So you go back to, say, a clan of 50, you know, out on the Serengeti. And high status in that type of clan would be what maybe, what's a great storyteller, a great sorcerer, a great finder of honey. Honey was that, you know, like some people really get to finding honey and getting it off. the bees, you know, so you're offering value, but also virtuous, you know, you could be courageous. You could be somebody that knows the rules of the tribe, knows the sacred laws of the tribe, and follows them and enforces them. That's, you know, so that's a virtue route to status. So let's say that I was the best in the clan of grabbing honey out the tree. I could go in there, snatch that honey from the bees. How does that then equate to me having more sexual partners?

Or options. Because it's the same thing. It's like being a great footballer or. It's like being Taylor Swift. Like people look up to you. They go, God, that person's amazing. Did you see how that honey he's got? And then you bring the honey in and everybody goes, oh, wow. Look at the honey we've got.

Thank you. And it's no different, it would have been no different then to it is today. We've got this automatic status reward system built into us that when we offer value to other people, other people, unless there's some sort of envy or some toxic competition going on, other people generally,

guys, that's great, amazing, well done. you know, congratulations. And they reward you with status. And also you feel better in yourself. You've got this self-signalling system where you feel better about yourself. So everything just feels better when you offer value to the group. I see it. I see it.

So we have evolved to believe that our identity is wrapped into our status. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And so without having status, then how do we view our identity? Well, your identity is partly based on the group you're connected with, but also the status that you've earned within that group. I mean, you know, when I'm talking about how humans compete with reputation, another way of saying that is humans compete with identity.

When we're being dominant, we're fighting in the physical realm. It's body against body, flesh against flesh. But when we're competing in the kind of prestige realm for, competence and virtue. That's our identities. So that's an identity thing. We all want to have a healthy, connected, high-status identity. That's how we measure the health of our identity. How connected am I and how much status do I have? Is those two things? And even on the connection, is it more so about meaningful connection? Because I've wondered about this when you look at, you know, unfortunately, we look at suicide rates, we look at the mass increase in the number of suicides, especially in the

West, namely in the UK and the United States. And we do operate in a loneliness epidemic. But I often look and say, okay, well, you know, these are people who have lots of quote-unquote friends on social media. They're interacting with people in real life, but I feel as if they're missing meaningful connection. So do you feel like there's a distinction between connection? connection and meaningful connection. I think one of the major problems we have in modern societies is the size of our groups. So we've evolved to play status games in the context of a group of around 30 to 50 people. That was the size of the group that we would have evolved, you know, for hundreds of generations within.

So when you're a member of a group of between 30 to 50 people, it wouldn't have been an unusual experience for you to feel invaluable, you know, because you were invaluable. There's not many people around to figure out, to try and solve the problems of the reasons for the group, to get the food, to get the security, to get the camps up, to get the fire lit, all that stuff. You were essential. So we've evolved to want to feel indispensable. But how often these days do we feel indispensable? Almost never. I mean, in the business world, it's a cliche. No one's indispensable.

It's almost a badge of honor. But the bigger the human group gets, the more diffuse it gets, the harder it is to feel gender in connection. Certainly the harder it is to feel any status within the. group. I mean, you know, most corporations, I mean, how big are they? You know, like, enormous. So, so, so I think that, I think that's part of the fundamental problem we've got of modern advanced societies is, is, is our status games are just massive. And so our identities constantly feel, you know, I think of it, I call it identity stress. We feel identity stress. So identity stress is when we feel that our connection is in, is under stress or our sense of

status is under stress. And so on social media, for example, you're constantly feeling identity stress because one person says a nice little comment about you. It doesn't matter who you are. Oh, God, you know, that's an attack. You feel, you feel it. And, you know, you talk, you know, quite rightly about the quality of our, of our connection. You know, a relationship over social media is not the same as a relationship in real

life. It's certainly not the same as the deep relationship you would have had with a tribal, you know, partner who you're living side by side with in this relatively small group in the serengeti or wherever it may have been so so i think that's i think that's part of the part of the problem and then there's another even kind of fun more fundamental issue which is the brain doesn't really want us to be happy that's one of the terrible things the brain wants us to keep pursuing status he wants to keep us pushing pushing because he doesn't want us to be just completely happy because then we're just going to stop trying to exist we're going to stop trying to

earn, you know, to earn status and be valuable. So it wants to, it wants to keep us in a slightly, slight state of dissatisfactions. So we're constantly pushing, constantly pushing, constantly pushing. But I certainly think in the West, one of the big problems is the size of our groups, how hard it is to, to earn status in the modern market economies. What I find so interesting about identity stress, as Will mentions, is that it's something that we all face, but we don't need to. You know, one of the best researchers on connection, in my opinion, is Dr. Robin Dunbar. I've read all of his books, in particular friends, is one of my favorites.

And Robin Dunbar has created something that's called the 150 rule or the Dunbar number. And this is in essence how many people we can sustain in our lives and have a meaningful connection with. And he says that it's roughly 150. We have our inner circle of our BFFs, you know, maybe there's five or ten of those, and we have our next rung of people, maybe 50. You know, you have the people that you work with that you have a strong connection with. Maybe you don't like, right?

But you still have a connection with. You have a meaningful connection. These are the people that, in essence, we should suffer or not suffer identity stress with. But the challenge is when we go out to the 151st, to the 200th person. These are the people who are following us on social media. These are the people who we are interacting with who we truly have no true connection with. This is something that we have to pay close attention to because the more emphasis we place on the people outside of that Dunbar rule, the more doom and gloom we will bring to our lives. It's always going to be really hard for us to feel invaluable.

It's always going to be hard for us to feel securely connected. It's always going to be hard for us to feel. I mean, status is never really secure, but it's always going to be very easy for us to be very insecure about our sense of status. because modern market economies work against those. They kind of work with them in the way because modern market economy kind of reward status with money and all that stuff. But it becomes ever harder to really feel any kind of security

in your level of status, especially with the advent of social media. I mean, one of the things I do in my spare time is I volunteer with the Samaritans, which is the hotline for people who are often feeling suicidal. So I spend a lot of time. speaking to people who are actively suicidal. And in my experience that Samaritans,

there are three main reasons why people want to end their lives. And the first reason is you're in chronic pain. So people have suffering from work brain. Understandably, they just find it very hard to carry on. Recently bereaved people I speak very often to. Recent bereavement is obviously psychological torture. But by far the main reason is, you know, about identity stress.

I could tell me it as an entity failure. Yes. People who are chronically lacking in either connection or status, usually both. And the only way lacking in connection status, they feel they're trapped. They feel that their life has got to a place where it's impossible for them to restore any sense of connection or any sense of status. And I mean, my experience as a Samaritan, this is by far the most common reason why people want to choose to end their lives is because identity failure. I'm unloved and I'm worthless. Right.

You hear it again and again and again and again. Right. This is a major concern, too, for one area of work that I'm in because I do a lot of reality television. Yes. And I see this all the time on these shows, Married at First Sight, Love Island, etc. Is that you have someone who's unknown, they go on this massive show, build up a, you know, significant platform, hundreds of thousands of followers on social media. They're on television every night. And then it's taken away. And you could see that their status has now, they've been humiliating. To your point, status has been removed.

And how do they combat that? I mean, how do, because I've also seen you write that you can't maintain status forever. No. So all status has a time limit to it. Yeah. So what does someone do in that position? Actually, all of us who we know that there is a time limit to our status. How do we manage the loss?

of our status. Well, I think the first thing is recognizing is exactly your point. The sudden accrual of massive status is really dangerous. We haven't evolved to be a celebrity. I mean, that's why most celebrities are a bit mad. Because our brains are designed to crave status without limit, really. You know, people always want more and more and more and more. When psychologists try to find the place where our need for desire for status levels out,

they can't find it. It doesn't level out. Other things like I need for power levels out, but not status. We always want more and more and more. We're never satisfied. I think it was Carl Young that talked about making the unconscious conscious. And that's what I'm trying to do with the book, like the status game, it's like saying, look, this is, this is you.

This is your life, you know, a part of it is the pursuit of status. And a lot of it is just illusionary. You know, like a lot of the things, a lot of the problems that you have in your day-to-day life are imagined assaults on your status. So if you lose your, like if you get annoyed, on the road behind a car because someone's cut you up. Nothing's happened. You know, they've been a bit rude to you. The reason you're reacting in a negative way, if you are reacting in a negative way, is because your brain is going, that's an assault on my status and I will not have it. So there's great power in being able to see that in yourself and go, this is just, it's just ego.

You know, just forget about it. It's ridiculous. So I think that's a big part of it. So, you know, and the brain is designed to make it feel very real and like this stuff really matters. But as I say in the book, you can't keep your status. You can't put it in a box and say, that's my status. Nobody can touch you now. It's mine. It's mine. Because status is given to us by other people.

So you've just got to understand that and have a much more kind of free and kind of loose and philosophical relationship with it, I think. And then is it important, too, because you mentioned your volunteer work? Yeah. Is it important to try to then gain status in other ways and new ways? Yeah, so I think it's important to play multiple status games, especially when you get to middle age and beyond. I think in your 20s, there's a good argument for choosing one status game and just throwing everything at it. Interesting. Yeah, because, you know, I think in your 20s, you're building the rest of your life.

And if you get good at something in your 20s, you're set. You know, probably, you know, the chances are you're set. But I think once you get to middle age, middle age is when you tend to peak and, you know, 40s and 50s is, unfortunately. Unfortunately, status tends to decline in various ways, you know, physically but also, you know, professionally often for people. So I think it's very important to play multiple status games. Sometimes that comes naturally. If you have children, I don't have children, but as a parent, you naturally, you're designed to start playing status games through your children. So your children's status is kind of your status.

You're connected in that way. But, you know, this is why hobbies are so important. People sort of think hobbies are so silly in men in their sheds with their, you know, with their train sets or whatever. But that's a status game. They're wanting to build the best train set, you know, like, let them. You know, like, that's great. If that's something that someone can get joy out of and feel like I'm really good at building train sets, then build the train set.

That's kind of what hobbies are for. There are ways that we can add meaning to our lives and feel good about ourselves in ways that aren't about career. You know, well, what you just said there is blowing my mind, but it's connecting with this whole idea of in your 20s, you know, focus on one status. Yeah. Right, because you can set yourself up. Yeah. And I feel as if the most successful people I know in terms of monetarily in their 50s, in their 60s, in their 70s, they have, they've played one status game, their entire career, and they have very little connection. They've, they've, they've, no friends. Yeah. Right. But they've

built up the status. Yeah. And I can see that they played that all the way through. But, but my fear is then if that's all they have, what then happens when it's ripped away. Yeah. I've got a very exciting announcement. But first, I want to ask you if you know which part of dating most of us worry about. If you guessed creating lasting relationships, you are right. We all want to find a partner to grow old with and to share in life's experiences. That's why I'm delighted to announce today an exciting new podcast partnership with.

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So is that happening because they played that one game all the way through? Yeah, and they've not hedged. They've not hedged. I mean, that's why I joined the Samarans. I mean, it wasn't a selfless act. I wrote the book and realized I was not following my own advice. I've been a writer's as I'm in the middle 20s. I have no children.

I don't do anything else. I have almost no friends. So I've got to do something else. And I would never have been the kind of person to be a volunteer. here without having written that book. And I immediately found it very rewarding. Even when I was being trained before it was on the phones, I found it very rewarding.

And what I realized was, I thought it was going to be a status thing where it's like it's a different way of feeling good about myself, but actually it ended up being a connection thing. That when you're on the phone with somebody who's in need, even though it's part of the Samaritan's training, you're not allowed to talk about yourself, you're anonymous and, you're not allowed to share about yourself.

If the call is successful, you create a very powerful connection with the person on the other end of the phone by listening very intending to them and drawing them out of themselves. And it's obviously hopefully helpful to them. Usually it is helpful to them. But it's also you leave a shift feeling like,

or at least I leave a shift feeling like I have a very powerful connection to the human family in some way. Like I'm never going to speak to that person again, but I feel connected to people in a very profound way. So that was the surprise for me about Samarans. It ended up not being about status. It's much more about connection for me. And it's really, I used to feel lonely a lot and I don't feel lonely anymore.

And that's because of the Samaritans. What do we do if we're in a scenario where we have a brother, a father, a friend who is male and has lost status? They feel humiliated. We know they do. What can we do to support them? I mean, it's not in rocket science, you make them feel better. I mean, one of the things that's really not astonished me at this marrons, but I find really powerful is that when I'm on the phone to somebody

who is chronically lacking in status, as they're talking, I'm thinking of things I can say to them towards the end of the call that are going to build them back up again. And they have to be authentic things. It can't be like this California thing of, oh my God, you're amazing, you know. You're a California accent.

It's good, though. It's L.A. It's L.A. Okay. But, you know, people can spot that a mile away. We've got this bullshit detector humans. We're very good at spotting that stuff. I thought this was really interesting because on these Samaritan calls,

Will is quite literally touching on both the fundamentals that humans need to be happy. And that's connection and status. And ultimately what Will is doing is what we all should be doing with each other. And that is being kind. And when we are kind to others,

we elevate their status. So all of this got me thinking, how has finding connections, and status been affected by dating apps? Yeah, I think the dating apps are, I think, the dating apps are designed really for hookups. You've got to, I think it's interesting to separate out sex and love. Okay. You know, I think when you're looking for sex and hookups, status is, tends to be the most important thing.

You know, there's that meme at the moment. The woman wants a man in finance, 6-5, trust fund, blue eyes, whatever it is. you know, like, you know, she wants the high status male. Yes. You know, men want beautiful, you know, whatever the men want, you know, what the men want. And so it's all about the status, really. It's all about, you know, like it's this raw competition for status. And it kind of reduces on the apps to this kind of very basic.

How do you get that across to people? Like if you meet somebody face to face, you naturally emit huge volumes, this enormous cloud of social information swaps between people, most of which we're completely unconscious of we read so much if it was body language their tone the smell

we can't consciously smell like it's so much goes on between two people that is valuable but you don't get that on the app so you're used to having these pictures of yourself and a small amount of text and you end up doing things like

you know women like if you've got a dog so I'm going to have a dog like it becomes so reductive And I get the sense that everyone's trying to chase the same kind of ideal algorithm. Like, what do you say in this bit? What do you say in this bit? Like, so I don't envy the app here at all.

Like, especially for men who are, tend to be the ones saying, pick me, pick me. Like, it must be so very difficult if you're not like an eight or an above out of ten. It must be really hard. Yeah, yeah. It's incredibly hard. It's interesting. A lot of the guys are walking around out. Yeah, with dogs that are not theirs.

Also, you know, fish has become a thing. Really? Big fish. Yeah, God. You can't be a small fish. You have to hold a massive, like, look what I caught. Look at this thing. It's just so funny.

But also, I feel sorry for these poor people. Like, it must be, yeah, really hard to try and stand out from that enormous crowd of other men holding fish. Yeah, it is. It's incredibly hard. And I wonder if that then reshapes, then. our pursuit of status because I mean we're joking about the dog but people with dogs actually have higher click-throughs yeah right so as a result does that then you know then do dogs become the popular that's the everyone goes out and adopts the dog yeah is is that do you think that our

behavior in real life is being shaped by dating apps and social media in in our pursuit for a partner I would imagine that you can you can catfish as much as you want on the app But when you actually meet in real life, it's like reality shows, like in the first two weeks of Big Brother or Love Island, everyone's on best behavior. But it's always after the two weeks, you see the real person. And that's when the fun begins. Like it always gets good after about two weeks, those shows. And I think, I'm sure it's the same with dating where you can try and present to be the ultimate, you know, person. There's this kind of fake ideal model of a person to the person who's trying to impress.

But it can't last. It can't last. No, no, I always say, and it's actually Chris Rock. He says that, you know, when you first meet someone, you meet their representative. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And then later, two weeks later, you meet the real person. Yeah, exactly. That's exactly. Chris Rock, yeah, he's great.

All right. So another one was, how do displays of status differ between trying to hook up and looking for a real long-term relationship? Almost when you're talking about love and sex. Well, I think one of the things about status, because you've just made me think of another thing that Chris Rock said, which is like he's brilliant. And he says that when two people meet and the guy goes back to his guy friends, says, I've met somebody amazing. And the guy say, what does she look like? And when the girls say, I've met this guy's amazing, and the girl say, what does he do? You know, and I think that that's so true.

And again, that speaks to the different ways that men and women tend to measure status, you know, and tend to value. kind of the status of the opposite sex. I think with love, it tends to be less about status and much more about connection. And I think in a specific way, so there's a very fascinating area of psychological research, which they call shared reality. And it's quite a new area that's being looked at,

but it's fascinating. And the basic idea of shared reality is that we all have this kind of weird model of the world. idea of what the world is like that is uniquely ours because everybody is unique. They've got unique experience, unique values, unique status games they're playing, unique history, lived experience, all of that stuff, unique genes. And so what we're always looking for, again, it goes back to us being this highly collaborative ape, cooperative eight.

We're looking for people who experienced the world in a fundamentally similar way to us because those are the people that we can cooperate with and collaborate with in order to build a better life for ourselves. Okay. And so that's true whether we're looking for friends. whether we're looking for people to work with side by side, but especially people who are looking to form a long-term relationship with. One of the sets of experience, which I find fascinating, has found that when you connect with somebody,

when you subconsciously realize this person sees the world in the same way that I do, you start changing each other's reality. So your guard comes down, and that person starts to change the way that you see the world, and you start to change the way that that person sees the world. Like I remember when I first met Fara, wife. One of the things that I admired about her was she was much better in social situations than I was. So I would struggle in parties and perhaps terribly hear at small talk and often come

across as rude, but just because I didn't know what to say. So people would think I was standoffish and it was a problem. But far, we have this massive facility to be charming and engaging. And without even consciously wanting to do it, I found myself copying her. So I would do what she did in social situations. I have the same mannerism, the same laugh. the same patterns of eye contact. And I was writing about this recently, and I realized I don't even remember what those things were that I was copying,

and that's because they've become authentically part of me now. So, like, in a very real way, a part of my wife has become part of me. So she's changed me. And, you know, I'm sure that if you speak to her, she would say that things that I've done have changed her in other ways. So we've become this over 20-plus years of being together.

We've become this deeply connected, meshed kind of being like couple. Before I did this research, I would feel a bit embarrassed because there are oftentimes when we say the same thing at the same time have the same thought. And I was going to say that. And you feel a bit embarrassed when that happens. It's like, that's so weird that we were about to say the same thing.

But now I've done this research as a shared reality. That's a sign of a really solid, strong relationship. We are experiencing the world in the same way. So that's what you're looking for, I think, in the long term. relationship. Somebody who you can literally your your experience of the world meshes and starts to

change each other for the better. I think that that's how I'd describe it. So this is a key point that Will is making. When he's discussing shared reality, I think another way to look at this is how our values lead to our emotional availability

which ultimately leads to our vulnerability, which then allows us to connect at a meaningful level, but more important than that to display our true selves. And this is what I mean. Having shared values means that we see the world as the same as our partner, which is very important. When we see the world as our partner sees it, then we're able to connect with them, not just physically, but also emotionally to the highest degree.

When we're connected emotionally to the highest degree, we feel safe. When we are safe, that's when we're most willing to be very. vulnerable. When we are vulnerable, we are our true selves. I think this is another way to look at shared reality. Now, in my notes for this interview, I saw that Will is written about how all of us are always in detect and connect mode. But this makes me think, do we detect and connect in the same way if we're interested in a committed relationship as we do if we're interested in just casual sex. Let's find out. Humans are constantly, because we are, we're like these individual cells in this superorganisms. We're constantly going around our lives, looking for people to connect with. So I call

it we're in this connect and detect and connect mode. So we're detecting, is this person like me in another way? And that's why humans are so obsessed with their appearance. One of the reasons where we spend so much money on our appearance and we always want to look a certain way and not just neat and tidy, but we express who we are in our dress in certain ways. But, but, because we are broadcasting out to the human superorganism. These are my values. This is what I stand for. This is what I believe.

And so we are not only attracting like-minded people, but repelling people who are not like us. So that's why that's a big reason why humans are so obsessed with appearance. That's why we spend so much money on clothes and cars and the house and whatever it might be. But, you know, we're constantly broadcasting. out facts about ourselves to other humans. And that's because we're constantly looking,

you know, it's this detecting connect mode. We're detecting like-minded people and seeking to connect with them. And of course, when we do connect with them, we feel great. And that's especially true with our romantic partner. Because as they, you know, that collaboration, the ultimate court, I mean, my wife and I don't have children, we don't want, that's a conscious decision we've made. We've never wanted children.

But the ultimate cause of, us being together for 20 years is that evolution wants us to be in a collaboration in order to raise children, to have and raise children. That's what it wants us to do. And it's a hard thing to obviously to raise kids. So you need to have a really solid,

shared reality, a solid relationship, a solid connection. Yes, yes. So this is this idea of detection, though. So you're saying we're always constantly. Yeah. We're detecting. And we're looking for someone like us. Yeah. That's what we're looking for. Yeah. And are we looking to push away

everyone not like us. Yeah, we repel those people. That's a scary thought as well. Yeah. It's sad. It is a bit sad. I mean, it is a bit sad, but it's one of those things that it is, it is. I mean, I mean, so it's, unfortunately humans are naturally xenophobic. We're not naturally racist, but we are naturally xenophobic.

We're groupish. We like to be surrounded by people like us, with like-minded people, because those are the people that we can collaborate with in order to make it, make a better, a better life for ourselves. You know, I mean, even connecting the detection and the connection and status, once I moved here to the UK, so I've been a resident now for the last three years. Okay. Proud resident.

I love, love, love, love the UK. The class system blew me away. Right, really, yeah. You know, we don't have the same structure of class in the United States. And once I got here, I realized that, you know, many people move within the same. class circle. Yeah. You know, even romantic partners.

You've worked with many people, many clients. And they have felt as if they did not want to be in a relationship with someone of a different class. God, wow. Right. And so is that detect, part of that detection, I would imagine is class is baked into that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Class could be that. It's any way we think that person is people, I call it people like us.

We always want to be people like us. And in Britain, historically class has been a big, a big part of. that, you know, unfortunately. Yeah, absolutely. It has. You know, that's that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, so, you know, is, how do that's, how do we, I'm, how do we, I'm, I'm going with, how do we actively combat this? I think the good news, I mean, there, there is some good news from the shared reality stuff. So, so, so, so, so, pre- Obviously, lots of psychologists agree with what people generally think often, which is that people are, you know, with xenophobic, humans are tribal and we, you know, so it's class, it's race, it's gender, all these identity divisions which seem kind of insuperable. But there was one study that I read about recently, which I just thought was wonderful, where they tried to figure out what was more powerful in bonding people together, was it shared reality

Or was it tribe? So they got these people together in a lab. They told the person, oh, this person's, by the way, sitting next to you is from the same town as you. So that's a tribal connection. And then the person, and then there was somebody sitting on the other side of them.

And they were there to watch some sort of presentation. And they made the presenter speak in a really stupid voice, like a really weird voice like that. So like the person who is being, who is the participant, started giggling at this voice. and the person next to them went and so they were laughing together at the same thing

but the person from the same town wasn't so the question is who do they feel more connected to the person who they shared that moment of humour with or the tribal one and it was the humour one that basic idea that I see the world in the same way that you see the world

is can trump race gender tribe there are other studies that also back this up there's a study that wrote about in the status game where they looked at racial prejudice in in a team context. And they find that if you get somebody of a racial minority in a team initially,

the kind of racial prejudice effect will kick in and there may be some discrimination against the person of colour. But very quickly, once you start identifying as a team and everyone starts putting together, that all washes away. And what matters to everybody is how good is this person in terms of offering value to this team? So I think there's a lot of reason to be optimistic.

We're stuck in this identity politics eras still at the moment where people are very, very conscious of race boundaries and gender boundaries and all of that stuff. But I think there's good reason to feel that we are as a species better than that, that we can overcome these things, that shared reality is much more important. And things like competence and status games are more important, that once we start working,

together and offering value to each other, we forget all that stuff about race and gender and sex and all that stuff. So I think that's a reason to be optimistic. Yeah. Yeah. So you've mentioned your wife a few times, right? And you've also mentioned that you've consciously chosen not to have children. I would imagine that, and you've talked about how some people, not some people, I think children are used as a status game. Yeah, yeah. Right. So I find it interesting that, you know, you've studied status game

and you've opted out of this major status game of children. Could I ask, what were the reasons why? There were two main reasons why. The first reason really is that both my wife and I are very focused on our career. And we realized that if my wife had children, when we were trying for a bit before we really sort of really figured out what we wanted

and one of us would have to give up our career that would have been me because my wife was more successful than I was at the time so it was obviously going to be me because she was bringing you more money at the time and I didn't really want to do that and also I felt that

I worried that what kind of a father was I going to be because I loved I was a journalist that I would love writing I was a photographer I'd love taking pictures I love traveling and I would have to give all of that for maybe 18 years

in order to just sit at home, watch Pepper Big, or whatever it is. And like I was going to do that. Like I was literally, I was going to sell my camera. Like I just went into this kind of automatic, okay, I've got to do this, I've got to do that, I'm going to stop doing this. And it's like, do I really want to do this?

And what kind of a husband am I going to be in 10, 15 years' time? Am I going to get resentful? Am I going to, is it going to impact the way that I'm doing? going to be able to raise a child? Is it going to impact the way that I'm going to be a good husband to Farah if I feel like I've had to sacrifice lots that I care about in order to do this? That was a big worry for me. The other thing, to be honest, is that I didn't have a very good, I didn't have a happy childhood myself. So when I thought about children, it was never with a very positive feeling. My childhood was easy the most unhappy period of my life.

And I worried about recreating that environment for whoever, for a child of my own. I didn't know, was I going to be like my dad was? Was I going to be like my mum was? I would hope not, but did I, I don't know. So that was the other reason. Could you expand on that? Well, what to say. So I was, I think I was probably a very difficult child to be, to be fair to my parents.

I was very disruptive at school. I didn't work. I was very bad with authority. I was just not interested at all in working. You know, I failed all my exams. I didn't go to university. I never been in university. So that's what they were dealing with.

I probably would have been diagnosed ADHD these days. I was on Ritalin, I think, at one point. I didn't do any good thing though. Yeah. From my perspective, yeah, It was quite a tough upbringing. You know, the old school Victorian, English, Roman Catholic parents. So I found it a very harsh, sometimes frightening world being at home.

I was deeply unhappy. I was usually on the verge of running away or, you know, I spend most of the time hiding in my bedroom. Okay. So it was, it was very, it was very, It was very unhappy. Yeah, it was a very unhappy childhood. Did you feel loved?

No, not at all. Okay. Okay. Okay. That makes sense? Yeah. Why you made that decision? Yeah, and I hope.

I mean, I remember once I'm saying to my brother-in-law about the kids thing, we've got dogs. I was saying, you know, I was having this conversation and said, I worry that I would be like my dad. And he was like, but look how you are with your dog. Like, there's no way you'd ever be like that man. And, you know, I've got two brothers and they're wonderful, fathers, very loving, you know, they really have beautiful relationship with their children.

So I, you know, so maybe I would have been wrong. I hope I would have been wrong. But, but, but the fear of it was, was just too much. Do you see that there is, is there any connection between not feeling loved as a child and the success you had in your career? Oh, huge. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, it's that sense of having to prove, prove yourself. Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's, it's, Yeah, absolutely. I think that's right. I think I've had a disordered relationship with connection generally. You know, before far, my love relationships were unhappy.

I was, you know, very insecure. I would get quite jealous. You know, always convinced that my partner was going to run off with somebody else and, you know, it was very unhappy. And I think that, I suspect, although you can never tell, that a lot of that is really, in my childhood of just not having an experience of feeling loved. So my fundamental experience of the world was it was insecure, that it was dangerous, that if I put a step wrong, you know,

I was always being told regularly when I was growing up, they were going to put me into care, they were going to end up in prison, so that was how I felt like, you know, the world was this fundamentally dangerous place. And so when I actually became adolescent and started falling in love with people, and how it worked, you know, And I didn't feel, I didn't feel worthy of love. You know, I felt unlovable.

So, so that would, you know, so that was a problem for, for lots of my early relationships. It was, it was very difficult. So, so for someone listening, watching, who feels exactly how you did, what do you suggest to them? You know, I was a journalist at the time and I asked that question to Ozzy Osbourne. because Ozzy Osbourne was talking about as I've been talking about how he used to be this jealous da da da da da da da da and I said to him I'm like that now

what do I do Ozzy? And he said you've just got to you've got to sort yourself out you've got to get your own house in order I don't know what exact words are used and you know like I couldn't trust myself so I found it hard to trust other people and so I took that away and I used to be basically

I used to be a very heavy drinker I was an alcoholic really and what I did was I stopped drinking and when I stopped drinking a huge source of kind of self-loathing was removed from me and I started to like myself more

and then that changed my relationship with women I stopped feeling unlovable and started feeling like it was possible to be loved and then you know like I always say with Fara

if I had never stopped drinking she wouldn't have gone anywhere near me because I was a complete mess when I was drinking And she would have been like, I'm not going to get anyone in that dude. Jesus, he's a mess. It changed my relationship with myself. It changed my relationship with the women that I was dating, certainly. And it began with stopping drinking.

So you changed the relationship with yourself. Yeah. And that allowed you to change the relationship with those around you. Yeah, that's it. Because I think it's, you know, I was in therapy when I was a teenager. And you go around and around in circles in therapy, and they go, yeah, you know, it's all of your parents' fault. Okay. Maybe it was.

Maybe it was their fault, but maybe I was also a difficult child, whatever. But what were you going to do with that? How does it change you, that knowledge? Even if you could prove it was true with a scientific study or, like, God could give you a certificate saying it was the fault of your parents. That's why you're a bad boyfriend. What are you going to do with it? It's not really useful information. It's just a, you know, it's a story that may or may not be true.

If you want to feel lovable, I think fundamentally, you need to, it sounds such a cliche, but you do need to start loving yourself. And I think I always resisted that idea because it feels like an invitation to narcissism. It feels like, oh, I'm so wonderful, you know. But it's not about that. I think, you know, I wrote about this in a selfie. I think, I think, actually the answer isn't about loving yourself. It's about accepting yourself and it's a very different thing.

I think loving yourself, I mean, I always think about getting around about reality TV. You get that trope in reality TV where you get some obnoxious idiot. on love art and or big brother. And when they're confronted about their bad behavior, they go, I'm just being myself. I'm just being real. I'm just being real. And if you can't take me,

and it's like, that's not good enough. You know, like, like, and I think that's where this idea of authenticity goes a bit wrong. That idea of self-love, as long as I'm being authentic, that you can't criticize me, I'm uncriticable.

That's a mistake. I think it's about self-acceptance. It's about that understanding that you are flawed. You are never going to be perfect, that you are a particular kind of person, with a particular kind of personality and a particular kind of good qualities

but also a particular kind of bad qualities that for the rest of your life you're probably going to end up making the same mistakes again and again and again and again. But you need to be your own best friend. You need to accept those flaws and when you do get those things wrong, have the humility to apologise to other people,

have the humility to say to yourself, you fucked up there, buddy. Please don't do that again. You know, so that's who I am these days. I would never say that I love myself, but I accept myself. And I remember as somebody saying to me once, you've got to be your own best friend. And I just thought, you know what, that's, again, it sounds by now, but it's so true. And I try and be my own best friend now where, like, I do get, you know, when I do get things wrong, I make a mistake, I lose my temper or I'm, I embarrass myself in some way.

Like, I'm critical to myself. I'm, you know, that's not good enough. You've got to do better. but I'm also kind to myself, you know, and I think that that's the big difference. That's what we should be going towards. It's not about loving yourself. It's about accepting your broken, sorry, you know, half-assed,

but trying to do better self. That's where I think we should be trying to be. If I had a collection plate, I'd just pass it over right there. I'd say that you just deliver it. I agree. I absolutely agree. we always end with the final question. Okay.

What is the most meaningful conversation that you've ever had and who was it with? I spent most of my career having very meaningful conversations with people. That's the difficult thing. But I tell you one thing that just pops into my mind, which I think is a really important conversation I had with my wife before we got married. And I can't remember what prompted it. Actually, I do remember what prompted it. I was writing about long-term relationships,

science and psychology of long-term relationships and I'd been interviewing lots of experts like scientists who study what makes a good long-term relationship and I remember it's because my wife I lived in Australia at the time we were lying on the beach and I'm saying to her look because we got engaged and I said to her look when we get married the fact is that we're going to be attracted to other people that's a fact it's going to happen but what you can't do is do anything about that thing so we've got to agree This idea that there's nothing wrong with a harmful bit of flirtation, there is something wrong with that. It's fine to be attracted to other people. It's naturally to be attracted to other people.

But the moment you do anything about that, it sets off this kind of chain reaction because you're going to like smile and they're going to smile back. Then you're going to want another smile. And it was an understanding of that's how, that's how affairs happen. That's how that happens. It's with that smile. It begins with that little smile. And I remember that being a very important conversation to me because I feel like, I've never been anywhere near

like having to fail or anything like that. And I think it's because I had those valuable conversations with those scientists who told me the neuroscience of this it's like a dopamine thing with attraction

and it's a chain reaction. And so I think that's been very protective of our marriage. Because I remember Fara going, you know you're right about that. Like that's a really important kind of insight. And we've both of us have held true to that over the course of our marriage

that don't be ashamed if you're attracted to other people because it's natural, but just beware. Don't do anything about that thing or if you can remove yourself from that situation as much as you possibly can. So I think that was a very meaningful conversation for me and I think it's had a big impact on our marriage. Will, thank you.

No, thank you. It's been epic and I cannot wait for the next book. I've watched how many years are between each of your books. We're due a new book, I know, very soon. In February, yeah. In February. Yeah, I'm ready for it. Great.

Thank you so much. Well, thank you. Thank you. Every episode, I'm going to give you my top five key takeaways from the conversation in an effort to make your life more fulfilling and your relationships stronger. Here's what stood out to me in today's episode. Number one, status is about feeling valued and respected by others, especially those closest to us.

So it's important to reflect on whether you're moving in the right direction to gain the status that you ultimately want from the people who really matter. Number two, lacking status and connection can lead to psychological and physical health issues. This means giving both your work and your relationships equal attention as just one isn't enough to make us happy. Number three, modern ways of connecting, such as through social media, make it harder to feel. meaningfully connected with others. This is why we should make sure we're not spending too much time outside of that Dunbar number of 150 friends. This means taking time to step away from social media and connect in the real world. And number four, exploring new avenues for status and fulfillment is important,

especially as we reach middle age and beyond. In your younger years, it can be beneficial to pour all of your energy into mastering a particular skill or career path to build a strong foundation. However, as you get older, maintaining a sense of identity, connection, and status requires branching out into new areas, whether through hobbies, volunteer work, or alternative sources of meaning and validation. Number five, self-acceptance rather than self-love is key to overcoming insecurities. It's about understanding that you're inherently flawed and you'll never be perfect. It's about learning from experiences, having the humility to apologize when you need to, and both being honest with yourself

while accepting that we can and will make mistakes. I want to thank you for listening to this conversation with Will today. Much love and respect. Rodrigo.com. Hey, honey, it's mom. Did you know if we switched to Verizon, we can get four phones for $0,000, plus four lines for $25 a line? Call me back. Me again, that's just $100 a month for four lines on Unlimited Welcome,

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