We Need To Talk with Paul C. Brunson - Breaking the Silence on Baby Loss with Perrie Edwards, Myleene Klass & Katherine Ryan | We're Talking Baby Loss Awareness

Episode Date: October 9, 2025

In honour of Baby Loss Awareness Week, Paul sits down with Perrie Edwards, Myleene Klass, and Katherine Ryan, who share their personal stories of grief and resilience. Miscarriage and baby loss are more common than we think, yet remain one of society's most unspoken struggles. From the uncertainty of pregnancy to the heartbreaking reality of loss, they discuss what it means to grieve, to speak up, and to advocate for better support. Their stories remind us that no one has to face this alone. This is a space for honesty, healing, and hope. If anything in this conversation brings up difficult feelings, you’re not alone. There is support available: Tommy’s: https://g2ul0.app.link/yiLgVePdnVb Sands: https://g2ul0.app.link/1c7K7WVdnVb Baby Loss Awareness Week: https://g2ul0.app.link/ye2qd7YQiXb  Baby Loss Awareness Week is an opportunity to bring us together as a community and give anyone touched by pregnancy and baby loss a safe and supportive space to share their experiences and feel that they are not alone. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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The Hilton sale is on now. Book on Hilton.com or the Hilton app and save up to 20% to get the stay you expected. When you want savings, not surprises. It matters where you stay. Hilton for the stay. Hello and welcome to We're Talking. This week, in honor of Baby Loss Awareness Week,

we're talking about something deeply personal, miscarriage and baby loss. It's not easy to speak about, but it's a conversation that so many need to hear. I'm joined by Perry Edwards, Mylene Class, and Catherine Ryan. They share their stories of grief, resilience, and the courage it takes to be honest about experiences that are often kept private. From the uncertainty of pregnancy, to the heartbreak of loss, to the fight for better support. Their stories remind us that no one has to face this alone.

So let's hold space together. Today we're talking baby loss. Another topic that I want to talk about, and you can go wherever you want on this, is so yesterday, just yesterday, I was reading an article, Glamour magazine, about you. Yes.

And you know what the article, the title was. The title was, why we should stop speculating on Perry Edwards' pregnancy. Yes, I saw that. You saw it? I actually DMed the writer and I was like, say it louder for the people in the back. Badass energy from you. Love it. Yeah, you know what? I was thinking about

messaging the writer as well. Yeah, I messaged it. I was like, this is brilliant. Love it. Can we just talk about just not speculation on you? Yes. But just the speculation on pregnancy among women. Yes. It seems to be prevalent.

Mm-hmm. And I think it's, for me, it feels like it's increased. Yes. Over the years. Yeah. And I think there's a variety of reasons. But why, for example, that article, why did you applaud the writer? And if you could tell everyone, even what the article, what the basis of the article was.

Yeah. I think, so you can look at it two ways, I guess, with the whole pregnancy thing, right? It's a blessing. It's beautiful. People love pregnant women. and they kind of just want to be like, you're pregnant, you're glowing. And it's a beautiful thing,

but at the same time, it's a very vulnerable thing for women. It's a very private thing for women. And I think, you know, when you're in the public eye, it's true because the article was like, if you speculated one of your friends was pregnant, you wouldn't shout it on their Facebook or their Instagram and be like, oh my God, you're pregnant.

You just wouldn't do it for everyone to see. I don't think. and I think we have to kind of navigate a bit better with that situation because yes it's beautiful and it's exciting and it's speculation and is she pregnant I don't know I want to know but at the same time you don't know what's going on behind closed doors with women and pregnancy is scary it's worrying there's so many things that come with being pregnant and the stresses and the scans and the problems and the complications and like Alex and I've been through a lot with pregnancies that people don't necessarily know about. You don't have to apologize. I've held it together so well. I knew that what's going to get me.

Yeah, I think it's a sensitive topic for me, and I know a lot of other women too. and I don't think I haven't necessarily not shared it with people because I'm like ashamed of it or anything it's just that it's like such a personal thing to go through and it's really hard

I did EMDR therapy on it which really helped but it still gets me but yeah no I think it's a tricky situation you know me and Alex have been through a lot when it comes to pregnancies and things Axel's rainbow baby so I had a miscarriage very early on with my first ever pregnancy

and it was so early I remember finding I was pregnant obviously I started bleeding not long after and I went to the hospital and I had the scan and they were like there's no baby and I was like oh I've made this up I'm maybe I got a false positive or something.

And I remember being on my own at the appointment because nobody was there. And I remember going in to see my gynecologist after with the report and I was like, can you just explain to me? So there was no baby. He was like, no, no, no, my darling, you've had a miscarriage.

And I was like, oh, okay, because I didn't understand. I was like, I thought you were saying there was never a baby. He said, no, there was a baby, but now there isn't. And I remember thinking, okay. And not like insensitively, it wasn't like traumatising in the moment because I thought, oh, it was very early. It was one of those things.

I kind of, it didn't, it wasn't, it didn't impact me that much. And then when I had Axel, when I was pregnant with him, like I loved being pregnant. It was one of the happiest times of my life. Like I'd just love carrying babies. and it was lovely but I was a bit on edge thinking oh gosh I want to get past the 12 weeks I want to get past this

and I want to get past every scan and that pregnancy was complete bliss it was perfect everything was great every scam was positive and then we fell pregnant again after Axel maybe a year

probably not even actually yeah not even a year because Axel wasn't even walking yet and we were pregnant Wow. And I remember thinking, right, I found out when I was rehearsing for the little mix to our, the last little mix tour. I was at rehearsals and I thought, oh, I don't feel good.

Every symptom under the sun, I was like, I think I'm pregnant. So I remember doing a test, finding out, telling Alex and he was like, this is great. And I'm like, okay, great, exciting. And then didn't want to tell anybody because I was like, I'm going to wait. Again, with Axel, we didn't tell anybody for a very very, very. long time because we were a bit cautious, making sure everything was okay before we announced it. So with this pregnancy, I remember being on tour and every night before a show, I kept bleeding. Like, too much information, sorry. But yeah, I was like heavily bleeding. I remember sitting thinking,

this is it, I've lost the baby. It's happening. And then I went to like a scan, like the next day or something and the baby was still there. So the sack was still there, but I had a blood clot around the sack. And I was like, oh my gosh, okay, this is a miracle. Baby's still there. Everything's fine. And then again, it kept happening every night on tour and I was thinking, oh my gosh, I can't cancel the show. I have to go out. I have to put a brave face on. I have to keep my shit together. Hopefully it's just the blood clot. So every night it was just so uncertain of like, is it this? Is it not? So I was completely on edge. Then, obviously it all stopped. everything was fine, went to the scan, 12 weeks scan, baby looked great, everything was beautiful.

We were like, oh yeah, this is it. The clot's gone. Cleared up. Everything was fine. And then we went on holiday, started to show because it was not long after I had Axel, so I was like pretty out here. Managed to get through the two other, no problem hiding it. People just thought I was getting in a bit of weight. Yes. And then got back from our trip to Portugal and I think we went for what was, our 20-week scan, but we were actually 22 weeks. And that was just the worst day of my life, like, horrendous. And I just knew something was wrong in the scan.

And he just kept going over the same thing, over the same thing. And he was like, sorry if I'm hurting you. And I was like, oh, it's a bit uncomfortable. Like, is everything all right? And he seemed like, not angry. But our doctor was just like a bit like, right, he was like on a mission. And I just looked at Alex and I thought, something's not right. And then I remember sitting down and I remember him just seeing these things.

But I don't remember what he said. I've never experienced like an outer body experience where you know when everything goes in slow motion. Yes. And you start hearing everything sounds like like in the movies. Yes. That happened. And I was like just sat there. And all I heard was like Alex just put his hand on my leg and he went, oh no.

And I was just like, oh no. This isn't good. so I remember sobbing he was injured at the time and he couldn't really drive he was struggling at drive but I couldn't say straight I was just distraught and yeah we basically lost the baby at like 24 weeks so I think I was just traumatised like it's weird because the first time it happened I think because it was so early I was like oh that's sad but I think when you're fully like carrying

in your 24 weeks and you've planned out like their room and All these things, it's really hard. Yes. But no, I've never spoke about it before because obviously I ended up a wreck. And nobody knows other than like immediate friends and family. And I remember like shortly after, like friends would message and be like, how's bump? And I'd be like there is a bump.

Your friend, Mylene. Yeah. Who's done a lot of advocacy. Yeah. For especially bereavement around miscarriages. Yeah. I mean, she was awarded MBE. Yeah, I know.

She's incredible. I love her so much. Oh, my gosh. Something that she said that has just, it just stays with me, is that when you're going through a miscarriage, that the baby stays with you. Yeah. You heard her talk about this.

Yeah. The gene. It caused me. It's so incredible. So, I. I didn't know that. It blew my mind. I was like, oh, wow.

That's so magical, like the thought of having that. And then if I'm blessed enough to have another baby in the future, it makes me feel kind of like that they're still a part of it in some way. Yes. Yeah. They will be. Yeah. Snoopy.

Right. Can we talk about that? Sure. It's something that I've talked about a lot because of my campaigning. But when you actually break down where it came from, I mean, every year it felt I was pregnant and every year I lost a baby. Every year. Pretty much. Yeah.

So it took us a good four years. You know, the campaigning, I see women who never got their rainbow baby. and I, it's such infinite bravenate. It's another level of bravery. Yes. They said never got their rainbow baby. He's my rainbow baby. That term, rainbow baby.

What is that term? That's a baby at the end of the rainbow. It's the one that binds you all back together. So I don't know if you're aware of something called microchimerism. No. So this is what just gave me so much peace because I struggle with the terminology around miscarriage in women's health anyway. And the rainbow, you know, it's like the pot of gold, the baby at the end of the rainbow.

That's where the term comes from. But microchimerism is a system whereby your body and your baby, you recalibrate constantly. So your baby uses their cells to bolster your main arteries. Now, it sounds very scientific, but at the heart of it is actually something really beautiful. So your baby cells go to your brain. brain, your kidneys, your liver, your heart. Wow, wow. And yours, in turn, go to theirs.

And I think the most unforgiving part of miscarriage is when you lose a child is nothing. You don't have photos, you don't have memories, you don't have, do you remember that joke they used to tell? Do you remember their laugh, their smile? You have nothing. It's a void. And you have something worse. You have what ifs.

Or I wonder ifs. Oh, they'd be starting school now. I wonder if they'd have your eyes. I wonder what kind of mother I'd be. It's just torture. But microchimerism really did give me something. And I know it's helped a lot of mothers that I've spoken to about it. Because when mothers subsequently died, they did autopsies.

They found those cells still in the mother's bodies. Incredible. So that idea that they leave you, they never leave you, they never go. They're always with you. You just carry them literally in your heart. Yes. Yeah, that's incredible. But the real magic is out of the way.

little Snoopy, idle rainbow baby, he carries all of us. He has Ava's cells, hero selves, mine, Sims, and the four babies that went before him. Look at that. So I'm like, oh. Yes. He's like, go away. You get an extra hug. Yeah, I get every single one of us in him.

Yes, that's incredible. It's just amazing to know that I still have them somewhere and he has them all. Yes. So that kind of research is so important because it's just percatory when you lose child. You don't have anywhere to go, just wandering. Can we talk about the psychological impact on both the mother but also the father? Because I don't hear much about the impact on the father. I did a documentary and I included Sim because of that reason.

to hear what he had to say because he said you were in so much grief I didn't feel that I could add to your sorrow which is a kind thing to do but also you end up doing this dance of avoidance around each other so I wouldn't want to raise it with him

just in case he wasn't thinking about it but then I was always thinking about it so he didn't want to raise it with me in case it triggered me and then we just that's it dancing around each other other. We live in a country where women's health is so neglected, call it misogyny, call it just carelessness, call it whatever you like, but Viagra is on its sixth generation of being improved, whereby we can't even get progesterone still in many cases. So women have this sort of silent

battle constantly, and we don't have any data collected on it. So we don't officially know how many it happens to. We don't know why it happens, where it happens. So I make my girls fill everything in on an app because I could have done with that information and so could my sister and it turns out my auntie. So it is in the family. Is it related? We don't know. But I'm not going to let my kids go through that. This is a great point because in the research I saw that it was roughly 15% of pregnancies will end in a miscarriage. But to your point, we don't know. Who's decided that? We don't know. You know what? That's just a figure you read because in the states you need to wait for two consecutive miscarriages

before you get any kind of medical intervention. But here in the UK, you have to wait for three. So there's no logical or medical continuity of care, nor is there any reason as to why that is. Right. Which when they tested by miscarriages, which in some people don't like the scientific side behind it and they throw more of their faith behind it,

I wanted to know what had happened. that the tricomies that came back were all unrelated. So I could wait for 10 miscarriages going by that way of thinking and still not get anywhere. It's so cruel. So one should be enough to set those alarms going. And that's what I'm working on. Yes.

So your work that your advocacy, should I say, has resulted in you having an MBE. Yep. Which congratulations. Thank you. I took all the family down there. Oh, my gosh. It was wild. It was wild.

I would imagine. Yeah. parents. It was wild. Yes, yes. But it's had the little rainbow baby to have him standing there. I just saw him just in my periphery and his two other mums, his two sisters. And honestly, after everything we've been through, there is no good ending.

In order to make change, it doesn't happen in clinics. It happens in Westminster. So I had to get into Westminster. Suddenly I'm a campaigner and never thought I would be on that path. But now I have more reason than ever because I can't, with all of the knowledge I have and all the experience and knowing what I know and knowing that I can make a big noise about it and have those really uncomfortable conversations with the people that want to shut the door in my face and have done countless times. Yes. You're not going to be a mother on this. Yes.

Because I've got something far greater and more important to fight for. So your campaigning work. Yeah. How has that changed laws and legislation? So bereavement law has just come forward, which means that you're not sick anymore at work if you have a miscarriage or lose a baby. It means that you now can take what everyone else is entitled to, which is bereavement leave. And you don't have to then have the uncomfortable conversation and explain, well, I'm going to have to say I'm sick and I'm going to have to get a doctor's note, but I'm actually not sick. I'm grieving.

And you don't have to then explain that you're trying to. trying for a child, which could then, in certain cases, thwart where you are in your work. You've got enough to worry about as it is. Eventually, we'll get to the point where you get paid bereavement leave, but this is enough just to start to get a foot on the rung. Yes, absolutely. And to be able to say the word miscarriage in the palace of Windsor,

knowing of those queens that we've learned about in history who lost their babies and the many men and women who've served in the country. castle and maybe the royals themselves, but in between, you know, within those four walls, to have the king address miscarriage, to have Westminster address miscarriage. That's where change happens. They have to sign the honor off. And that's how you can use your name and your privilege and your power. It doesn't have to be to get the best table or the club entry.

It can actually change laws. Look at that. Look at that. Look at your life, Monty. Yeah, I mean, I didn't plan on campaign. When I was lying in that bed after, I think the second miscarriage was worse than the first. I didn't think that was possible. I didn't even think that was possible.

But the first I thought was just awful one of those things that people dismiss. And the second one was then I thought, we have a problem. And by three and four, I was tail spinning. I didn't even know who I was. It just was hell bent on trying to keep a baby but didn't know how to. And also, you talk about men, you know, chefs, cyclists, they're more susceptible. We're now learning.

So if you take a hot bath, if you're in front of a fire, if you're in saunas, if you're drinking alcohol, too much caffeine, if you drive a lorry, long-distance drivers, cyclists, I think I said, but yeah, we're learning now that the men's contribution is far greater. Their blueprint actually builds the placenta. So when the placenta fails or those struggles there, actually it might be whatever's happened with the DNA, the contribution of the male as well. Okay.

So as we learn that, then we now have to realise, hang on a minute, this is not just a woman's responsibility. If you want to have your healthy child, you have to take on as much of, I would say, burden, privilege, however you want to approach this. But your health plays as big a role, if not in certain cases, more. If you're not looking after yourself and your wife is, you're creating a problem for her, But before, it was always the woman's problem. Yes.

The woman's guilt. What did you do? What did you eat? It's one of those things. It happened to a granny. It just happens. It's God's will. God needed another angel.

All of these platitudes that you just don't want. I just want my baby. Yes. Let me ask you something. When was the last time you really thought about how you love? Not who, but how. Most of us don't. We're moving fast, doing life, hoping love just shows up and sticks.

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Three times. How do you get through that? How do you? I'm a lot more like you, Paul, because it takes me a longer time to process things. And now Bobby knows the signs. Like he grieves right away. He gets visibly sad and he cries in the scanning room.

Whereas I'm a bit more British than that and I try to make everything okay for everybody in the scan. Yes. I'm like, sorry, really sorry. Don't worry about it. Don't you be upset. It's fine. This is very embarrassing for me.

Sorry, let's just leave. I'm smiling. Yes. I'm taking selfies on the way out. You know, it's, and Bobby's thinking, oh, we please just be sad now. So I outrun it, I think. Now I have a pattern. There have been three.

I sort of know what I'm like. The first one knocked us for six. That was early. We found out at 10 weeks in a scan. And my embryos, I will call them fetuses or embryos, whatever you want to call them, would be future babies. They hold on. well which I feel is traumatic. It doesn't just happen like it does in the movies where you bleed. I don't find out until I am in a screening with a doctor and they just

notice on the scan there's no heartbeat. That's what's happened every time and then I have to have surgery otherwise it just won't come out. So the first time I waited to see if it would resolve itself and it didn't and that waiting time I just went a little bit mental if you don't mind me using such a triggering word. People don't like that word anymore but I went fully mental I kept working I actually like everything was fine and all the while in my head I'm like I am a walking tomb like I am pregnant with a dead baby and nobody knows and then I started again I think I I feel very tribally about women and all of a sudden I'd look around and I think oh the lady

on the cash register at the Morrison's might also be pregnant with a dead baby and this woman's moving about her life just pregnant with a dead baby and I could not sleep I can think of anything else than like what is going on and when will it resolve and where does it go and like thinking spiritually thinking of all these things and then finally I had the surgery and only at that point was I able to even hormonally climb down from the place I was in because I think your body and your whole endocrine system starts to go well where's the baby what happened and then I felt sad for my husband I felt that I'd let Bobby down somehow I've I felt that my autoimmune disease was probably responsible, which like it probably was.

Yes. And then you start questioning, like, if I want something so much, like, why is my body working against me to hurt a baby? But all of my immune system is firing, like, sees it as an intruder. That's what I thought. And I was just, it's such a disconnect. And the second time we found out at 13 weeks, which was later. I knew straight away to get the surgery, and there was something wrong with the development of that fetus early on.

It didn't have any chromosomal things, but its stomach wall wasn't forming properly. So we had a bit of a warning that that might go that way. And then the third time, she did have, like, a syndrome that was not compatible with life and that ended. We found out with the heartbeat on the scan. Fine. And that time I thought would be the easiest,

because I'd been through it so many times. but that was after Fred and Fennah. So I knew I kind of had another, a rekindled optimism. I thought this was going to work. And when it didn't, I went straight from the surgery to work, which I've done too many times. And the doctor's always like,

can you please not? And I'm like, take you my, you know, I just have to move forward. And I went on stage that night, and then I was filming the next day, and I just keep doing that until I finally have a breakdown. And then Bobby's like, here it is. And then I get just really sad.

It's the sadness that I don't, I can't even explain. It just feels so bad when you're in it. And I try to hold on to that feeling because remarkably you forget. And you say, you still think about the baby that you lost. You still think about it. But your body kind of puts it somewhere and you don't think about it every minute and you're able to function and you move on. But the women and the men who are in that situation,

And they feel so lonely because nobody talks about it. People move on from it. It's shameful. They sweep it under the rug. So I try to stay connected to that initial feeling of grief only because I know people going through it are so alone. Because I felt really alone at that time. And I'm fine about it now. And I see the reason for it now.

I rationalize it now. I know it's part of life. I don't blame myself anymore. But in those moments, it's just like you're in like a hormonal. snake pit. You just cannot climb out. Thank you for watching or listening. I want to say, if these

conversations resonated with you, you are not alone. Miscarriage and baby loss affect so many people, yet they're often kept in silence. Hearing these stories, sharing this space, and checking in with those around us is how we start to break that silence and create connection.

We've included links to support charities in the episode description if you need them. And if you want to hear more, of the full conversations with Perry, Mylene, or Catherine, you can find them on the We Need to Talk YouTube channel or wherever you get your podcast. It's in these conversations that healing begins. Thank you for being part of it.

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