We Need To Talk with Paul C. Brunson - Chloe Sims: I Had To Be "Desperately Single" To Get Booked... How Reality TV Broke Me

Episode Date: March 31, 2026

The Only Way Is Essex star Chloe Sims reveals the truth about TOWIE, fame, and the relationship she says took years of her life. She opens up about growing up without her biological mum, being bullied for her looks, and why part of her still feels like that young girl today. Chloe speaks honestly about the man she kept going back to, why she apologised for things she didn't do, and the moment she finally realised he was never going to change. She also shares what reality TV was really like behind the scenes. From rehearsing arguments to shaking with nerves, Chloe explains how the pressure to perform affected her mental health and why she was never the “Ice Queen” people believed she was. Chloe also reflects on motherhood and the lengths she went to protect her daughter from the spotlight. She speaks about filming House of Sims with her siblings, why making the show nearly broke her, and what starting again in America has taught her about love, family and self-worth. Chloe Sims, We Need To Talk Follow me here: https://www.instagram.com/needtotalk   https://www.tiktok.com/@weneedtotalkpod   Sign up to our newsletter https://linkly.link/2eXHX Follow Chloe here: https://www.instagram.com/chloesims  https://www.tiktok.com/@misschloesims (00:00) Intro (01:46) Paul Tells the Story of How He and Chloe First Met (05:53) Chloe’s Upbringing in East London and Essex (07:45) Chloe’s Family Situation Growing Up (13:39) How Moving From East London to School in Essex Affected Chloe (18:48) Paul Shows Chloe a Childhood Photo of Her and Joey (20:08) How Joey’s Mother’s Death Affected Chloe (28:05) Chloe’s Biggest Insecurity During Adolescence (30:38) Chloe’s Life After School and a Toxic Relationship (38:43) What Chloe Is Looking for in a Partner (41:12) Saily Ad (42:20) How Chloe Was Cast in TOWIE (51:57) How Chloe’s Life Changed After Joining TOWIE (57:49) Chloe’s Darkest Moment on TOWIE (01:06:26) Chloe’s Experience on Celebs Go Dating (01:09:01) How Chloe Is Pigeonholed in the Reality TV Industry (01:11:53) Chloe’s Current Dating Life and What She Wants in a Partner (01:18:19) Chloe’s Experience of Perimenopause (01:21:19) Chloe Asks Paul for Dating Advice During Perimenopause (01:24:48) Paul Reads Chloe a Letter From a TV Industry Insider (01:32:59) Paul Reads Chloe a Letter From Her Brother Charlie (01:36:53) How Chloe Has Navigated the Media and Her Daughter Maddie (01:40:16) The Biggest Lesson Chloe Has Learned From Motherhood (01:41:35) Chloe Recounts Her Experience With Cosmetic Surgery (01:45:08) Will Chloe Have Any More Cosmetic Procedures? (01:46:59) Most Memorable Conversation (01:49:17) Paul’s Takeaways Sponsored by: Saily - Download from the app store and use code WNTT at checkout for 15% off. For more details: https://saily.com/wntt ⛵ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Good sleep is everything. That's why Ali's science back support is made with a blend of melatonin and L-thianine for both kiddos and grown-ups. So when your mind won't switch off, you've got something that can help. Erasing thoughts and restless nights won't stand a chance. Find Ollie's sleep solutions for the whole family at ollie.com. That's OLLL-L-Y.com. LinkedIn is pretty amazing at helping you grow your small business. We cannot stop your new clients from emailing you at 3 a.m.

We can help you sell, market and hire in one place. We cannot help you be in three places at once. And while we can't help you organize your calendar, LinkedIn can help you land more clients so you have a calendar to organize. Grow your small business on LinkedIn. Learn more at LinkedIn.com slash small business. On Tower, I was branded as the ice queen.

I remember my hands were shaking. The anxiety was overtaking my whole body at that point. So I'd go asleep thinking a whole room full of cameras while watching me. Made a sick. I'm going to know. Go away. My mom, she's a complete stranger.

It's almost like I just haven't got one and that's it. I can't imagine doing that to my child, Madison. Everything's perfect. Then I meet a guy absolutely took the stuffing out of me. And that's when I started to go partying. What's your best dating advice? Don't. I just don't date.

No, I'm joking. I'm joking. I want to go to Tawi. It completely changed my party. He changed my life overnight, like that. But I did start to question my career choices, like my worth in this industry. So what do you do next?

The press, they were terrible. They liked to build you up, not too high, just to where they think he should be. And then they like to tear you down or watch you fall down. But I feel like I've started me and Maddie out. Like, we're good. So remember how I said, what does the industry think of you? And you said,

said ice clean well can I show you something I have lots of surprises for you Chloe oh god don't think you're gonna cry hey there before we begin the episode I just want to say thank you for choosing we need to talk doing this podcast is one of the greatest joys of my life and I want to continue to share it with you so hit follow and the bell icon it takes just a second and it helps us to continue to grow this podcast Chloe Sims we need to talk okay You looked at me like that. Like that was the courteous thing.

I wasn't sure what he was going to say. He started for Chloe Sims. I was like, yeah. We need to talk. From the bottom of my heart, I just want to say thank you. Okay. Now you're thinking, why? Yeah, why?

Why? I don't think you realize how important you are to so many people. Right. And how impactful you are and how you live. truly change lives. I don't think you do. But I want to talk about how you changed my life, literally, okay? We met eight years ago. Was it eight years? It was almost nine years ago. What? We look better than that. Not a decade. It's airing me out here. Oh my God. We met 10 years ago when you were 19. Yeah, that's right. I'm glad you remembered my age. Yes, yes. And we met on

celebs go dating. Yes. And I distinctly remember several things about you on this show, right? One is, I feel, and I'm not just saying this to say it, is I feel like everyone looked at you as the queen. Okay. Right? Production, the other celebs, us, you know, as the agents. Everyone looked up to you. Now, this was my first time coming to the UK. So I was thinking like, who is this? Like who is? Like, is she a member of the royal family? The Essex one.

That's funny. Everyone looked up to you. And then I remember at the very end of the series, I said, Chloe, can I talk to you? You probably don't even remember this. I remember. Yeah, I do remember. And I came to your room. Yeah.

I was like, how do I really get into this industry? What do I do? and you were the first person to sit down and give me advice on here's what you do, Paul. You should do this, you should do this. And it wasn't you just saying these things, but you meant it truly when I look back at the people who were most impactful to me of falling in love with the UK. You were on that list. Oh, that really means a lot to me. I'm not good at taking the compliments that you're trying to give me.

and some of the things you said there were strange because that whole queen looking up to things I didn't realize that I had that and people used to say it about me and I used to find it weird you know like I just think what do you mean like it wasn't I wasn't trying to portray that energy if you know what I mean right

but I do think that I've got like the the tough and the soft thing about me now I do feel like I do have that and I probably did have it back then but I can't remember I remember much of Steves-Go dating, Paul, because it's like a city lagging for most of it. But I do remember our chats, and I do remember connecting with you. You know that.

And then I obviously come back and did half another season as well. I loved you from the minute I met you. It's probably a mixture of things. I don't know. But we had really good energy, didn't we? We had a lot. We did. We introduced me to, we went to a pie mash shop with your grandmother.

Pie Mash, yeah, in Essex. In Essex. Yeah, it wasn't a proper pie shop. Were it done for the day? Yes, yes. Did you ever eat it again, Paul? No. Did you do?

It was, what was it the thing? Oh, the jellied eels. I feel like you liked it a little bit, though. You didn't hate it. I didn't hate it. It was just the eels. Yeah, no, I don't even like them. Not everybody like that's a really old-school thing.

That's the Linda Sims thing. She loves that. But she's nearly 90. Okay. They didn't have a lot of options back then in East London. That was all you had? Brokers' tits. They just got the leftovers.

All right, so then this then leads us to you growing up. Yeah. Okay. So where exactly did you grow up? Oh my God, everywhere. Really? Yeah, so I was born in Newbury Park. Is that Essex or no?

Yeah, I mean, I think it comes under Essex. Okay. It's in a weird part because some people from that little borough, I guess, will say they're from London, but they're not. But it's also not really Essex. It's right on the cusp. It's like near Ilford. Okay. You know?

Closer in. It's a funny little spot. It's like no man's land, I would say. But anyway, I was born in there in King George's Hospital. And then I stayed around Essex, basically, but I moved around quite a lot. I think by the time I was five, I'd probably moved about four times. Really? Yeah.

And that kind of pattern continued. What caused all the moving? Well, I mean, I was. born with really young parents. So the initial start, yeah, it was because of that. And then obviously it's public knowledge that I don't know my birth mom. So obviously me and my dad moved around a little bit. But yeah, that's mostly what calls that.

And then we moved out to East London because it was cheaper to get property there. Okay. Stayed there for a little while my dad built yourself up and then we moved back to Essex. Okay. Yeah. Can we explore your parents a bit? I mean, yeah, I guess. Okay.

As much, you tell me where you want to stop, is that, so your parents, you had young parents. Yeah. Do you know roughly how old they were? Well, my dad is exactly 20 years older than me. I started raising our old years, so I just had 20 years old. Okay. And my birth mom was 19 when I was born, yeah. Okay.

Now, when I look at a lot of single parents, yeah. Typically, it is the woman, or should I say the wife, who keeps the kids, takes the kids. Yeah. In your case, it was your father that kept you. Yeah. Why do you think that was? To be honest with you, I don't really know too much about it.

All I know is that she left. So I don't, I think, from what I know, her mum left. her and then she left me. So I think it might have been a pattern. She was 19, which we both know is extremely young. And I've had opportunities to connect with this woman, but I've chose not to. And I don't regret it. I chose not to at 18. I chose not to in my 30s. And I did wonder when I got older, like later in life, would I regret this decision? But I've got to 34 and I still don't regret it. I don't know what there would be to know.

I know you more than I know my mom. You know your mom. So for me, it's almost like I just haven't got one and that's it. So a characteristic, though, that I know about you, that I personally know about you is you are motherly. Yeah. You know what I mean? And not, I mean, like, you're motherly.

Yeah. And when I think about motherly, someone who's very supportive. Yeah. That hard and soft, you know, when I met you, you were talking about your daughter. Yeah, Madison. Madison. Yeah. And she is, I know, she is your heart.

Yeah. So I'm curious about why, and I understand many people who don't, but why you chose not to explore who she was at all. I think I only grew up with my dad's side of the family. So it's not just, I don't know my mum. I don't know anybody from her side. Okay, no. Never have done. I did know her dad when I was little and I vaguely remember him and I know that he was a good person.

But other than that, I don't know anybody. So I feel like, well, she reached out when I was 30. I was already on TV by then. And the message that was sent to me, it wasn't a full out. It wasn't, I've not tried to contact you for 30 years. It was like broken English. But I just didn't, it didn't make me want to respond, honestly. It wasn't anything bad, she was just reaching out.

But I just thought, what's your 30 years too late, hon? With all due respect, what could we possibly talk about now? She's a complete stranger. I don't really know what's the point. And when I was a little girl, I used to watch this show, I had still a black on it. Okay. And she used to find long lost.

relatives. Yes. I remember what it was called. It weren't surprise, surprise. It was another one. But anyway, I loved Silla when I was younger. Do you know Silla? Yeah, I know other.

Yeah. I'm trying to think of the name of the show. He had a show and it was popular and it was on like maybe on a Sunday and she would reunite family members. And I did as a little girl used to watch it and think what would that be like. But as I got older, I don't know. I just have no feeling about it. I'm numb.

There's nothing. Like I don't. And also, I think, becoming a mom and I was a young mom too, not as young as her, but I was young. Yes. Especially for nowadays, like I was 23 when she was born just. I was 22 when I got pregnant. Like, I can't imagine doing that to Madison under any circumstances.

Do you know what I mean? So for me, I just don't think that we can, I haven't got anything to say about it. Fair. That's fair. I can't even, it's hard for me to even call it that. birth mom. Yes. Because I had all these other great people, you know?

Yes. And I had therapy once and one of the things that stuck in my head was he said that the mom and the dad, for example, whoever it is you've got an issue with, like just because they, because I feel like they were meant to give me something, some kind of love, some kind of whatever it is. Like even if they don't, other people step in and you get it from elsewhere. He didn't say it like this. He said it way better.

I'm butchering it. But you know what I mean? What you're saying is, is facts. When we are young, we're looking for safety. That safety we think is going to come from our parents. Yeah. But it doesn't always come from our parents. Yeah.

Could come from a grandmother. Could come from a neighbor. But we're all seeking that safety from someone. And then we attach on to those people that we feel safe with. So what I feel like you've just described are all of these people, people in your life that you felt safe with. And the beauty to me is you felt safe with many people. It wasn't just one or two.

Yeah, it was like that. It's been, that's been like a, I've always attracted older women in that way. And then as I got a bit older, I started to get a bit like, stop trying to mother me. Do you know what I mean? Like, not in an ungrateful way, but I did start to feel like I kept attracting these women and they were trying to take that role. And obviously I've been independent since I was 17. So sometimes I can get a little bit.

Yes. I don't know because you're probably going to know. I feel like you're doing that psychological stuff to me again. No, no, no. We're just having to cover. But I don't know, like, what this sounds like. It just comes out my mouth and then I hope it just, like, lands how I mean it. But I sometimes can get a little bit like can everyone back up a little bit.

Do you know what I mean? How did the, then, going to the school, Essex because that's a very informative time in a life of a young person. Yeah. I see that's where we're trying to figure out what's our identity. Yeah. How did that, do you believe, shape who you've become today? Yeah.

I mean, it would be interesting to have seen who I would have been come if I'd have stayed in my East London school because there I was confident and I wasn't, I didn't feel ugly in that school or weird. I didn't feel like anything. I just felt like me. I felt confident. But when I went to Essex, then I wasn't, I wouldn't, I didn't fit in, like you said. And then I had to try and I had to make these new friends.

I didn't really like them. I didn't have anything in common with them. They were like my, so the girl that I made best friends with, her name's Helen, she's still my good friend now from 13. She, yeah. And I'd get bullied for my looks and she was really popular for her looks. but we were best friends. Isn't that weird?

That is. And yeah, and I used to, I went through a, like, tough period from moving to that school in Essex, because although I eventually did start matching up to the uniform, Essex vibes, I still wasn't accepted because it was that first impression, you know? And, like, they used to call me names

and write stuff in my book. And, like, I didn't, I think I probably, I've got learning difficulties, but I never really done any tests, Do you know what I mean? I've come this far. Do I really need to know if I've got whatever it is, everyone's got now? Do you know what I mean?

Right. But back then I know that I probably did because I used to really struggle in the classroom, especially if I had to speak in front of everyone. Imagine I'm getting bullied, getting called ugly, and then I've got to stand up and get all my words wrong. It was a lot, you know. It must have been hard. Yeah.

And when you said you were at the East London school. I didn't have that. You didn't have that. You felt comfortable. You felt safe. But then you said you didn't feel ugly. Yeah, I felt confident because. everyone used to tell me I was pretty there, you know.

But then in Essex, did you feel ugly? Yeah. I did think, I didn't feel pretty. How do you believe that experience? Because it seems like that was an inflection point in your life. It was, it was big for you. How do you think that that shapes who sits in front of me today? Yeah, it definitely knocked my confidence and made me insecure.

I guess to a point in my life because eventually I grew up and snapped out of it obviously. Yes. But I think that that and then TOWY, you could class TOWY as a lot of bullying from the press and the public. It was like similar vibes.

I think them two together wasn't helpful. No, no, I don't think so. Yeah, and then fighting. Like I didn't really want to get into fights, to be honest with you. And my dad didn't bring me up to fight, believe it or not. but I would have a lot of like you know like in the I can't remember because I don't want to like make

I can't remember the exact words that people get a bit flash sometimes you know like and then I'd have to stand my ground and then it would go all around the school that so-and-so is going to beat me up on the way home and then the whole school would follow you imagine and like I'm behind me and I'm sick

and then I'd get into a fight because I have to I didn't have any choice so it was that kind of thing you know like, I don't know, I've constantly wanted to do things like that. Yeah. You said, believe it or not, like that your father didn't bring you up to fight. That's because your father was a boxer, wasn't it? Yeah.

And then he was a trainer, then became a boxer. He was. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. But he didn't, like, in, I don't know, in the 80s, it weren't really the thing to teach girls out of box. Like, it weren't really a thing. So, like, I was a bit scrappy, you know.

Yes. Like, I didn't get beat up, put it that way. But I prefer not to have done. that? Because then I used to get grounded when I used to get home. I just go back with a black iron, but then be grounded. Yeah, so it was tough. If you won the fight, I would thought if you won the fight, you're... I didn't win, but I didn't go down for. Goodness gracious. I thought you won every fight. I thought you're undefeated out here, Chloe.

I verbally can't. Yeah, I'm going to say. Where do you think that that came from? You've a very quick tongue. You're very quick. Yeah, I don't know. I don't, I actually don't know. I think that probably the people that I spent time with probably the men. You know, you said about the mal-influence in my life. Like, I did have that also. So I think probably

that alpha part of my personality probably did come from that. And the banter, you know, my family from East London, so the majority of communication is taking the piss, niche names, you know, like just digging people out in a funny way. So I think

that probably is part of it. But yeah, I actually don't know. Fair, that's fair. Can I show you something? I have lots of surprises for you, Chloe. Oh, okay. Can I show you this? I want you to take a look at this photo and tell me what is happening in this particular photo.

Okay. Right. So that's me and Joey at my nanny linders. I was about 17 in this photo. Okay. And I have my confidence at this point. This was the Essex vibes. Okay, so confidence has come.

Yeah, because I started doing my hair, wearing fake tan, wearing makeup, the Essex style. And this was a fake gazachy top that I got from Tenorayf. Yeah, and I love that top, and that's joey. We were around Linders. Okay. Linders, my nanny Linda, Linda, you've met. Yes, I sure have. Had eel and everything with her.

That's it, yeah. And I would have been there today if I wasn't with you, because I go around there every Wednesday when I'm in England and we have Fyagles. Okay. Yeah, with Maddie. But yeah, so that's that. That's that. Okay, so now the reason why I wanted to show you this photo.

Yeah. Which I didn't know that was a fake Versace time, but anyway. Yeah. But the reason why I wanted to bring that up is because that was, you mentioned Joey's mother. Yeah, Tina. Tina. And how close you were to Joey's mother. Yeah.

I think Joey was nine in that. and then Joey's mother passed away. So how did that, did her passing impact you? Right. Well, obviously massively. I was very close to Tina. And I was only 21. So it was the first time I'd lost anybody, put it that way.

I'd never been to a funeral or had anybody close to me passed away. So that was the first thing. And also it was just a shock, you know, because she was, she was younger than what I am now. And she was a woman that I looked up to, you know, as a motherly figure. So, yeah, it was a massive thing that happened. And obviously she left behind Joe and Frankie, and we were all super close at the time. So, yeah, it was a big deal. Did you then take on a different role with, with,

Jo in Frankie? Yeah, I did. I actually moved home immediately. At the time, I was living in Epping in Essex. Okay. And they were living in Chigwell. And me and my partner at the time had his dad. We didn't have nothing, you know, like we just had like our normal jobs, whatever.

And we moved apartments to be one street away from them. And then this, when I stay at apartment, I don't know. when it was this place. They had no heating, like it was freezing, you know, like damp. I had a few mould on the windows. But we was like one street away. And then the spare room, manage your expectations, but we tried to make it nice for them, you know, so they could come.

Joey did used to come, but he was more with his dad. He was a lot younger. But Frankie, yeah, she come a lot. She would then, from then on in all of my homes, she would always be there with me and Maddie's dad a lot. Yeah. Okay. Mm-hmm.

So when, when, you know, when someone passes a family member, a friend, and I distinctly remember the first few people who passed in my life. Yeah. And it's shocking. Mm-hmm. It is soul-destroying. One thing that I see that it definitely changes a family. It does, yeah.

Some people actually step back and step away. Mm-hmm. Others step up. Mm-hmm. But what I find interesting is you stepped up. You were very young and you stepped up and you took over responsibility. Yeah. What do you think it was within you to step up opposed to step back?

I actually don't know. And I remember, to be honest with you, it was such a shock that it was like, it was such a blow that I don't even think I knew what I was doing. And you can't even, you can't even, that, get your head around what's just happened. Yes. You know, and it was just, it was all a lot. And we just went in flip mode. Like, I was like, I've got to be near them. And I was very close to them.

You've got to, like, imagine, like, super close. Like, I grew up with them to, with Joey and Frankie, we grew up together. So, like, I felt, I don't know, I had to be with her, you know. And then we went through, like, the teenage stuff, like her nicking my cigarettes. And I remember being really shocked. that she would steal my cigarettes. And then I was like, oh yeah, because it was kind of like a, not that I felt like the grown-up, but it kind of was a little bit,

you know, like that I was taking on that adulty kind of role. And then I would like drive past her at the bus, that she'd have my new trainers on. And I'd go, I'd flip out, you know, like, and then try not to. But yeah, it was weird. And my memory's patchy. I feel like things that have been real tragedies. Yes.

Really patchy in my mind now. because there's been lots of other things that's gone on that have been big events in my life, I guess. Yes. Since then, so it's really hard to remember all of it. But from the vague memories that I have, she was with me a lot, yeah, in all of my places. So to what you're saying is something that I would go through a lot,

is if there was something traumatic, especially when I was a child, I would try to think back and I couldn't think of it. And I was reading about how what our brain does is when something severely tragic happens to us, opposed to thinking about you're watching a film, right? That's how we're probably seeing each other right now. It's a film. But when something severely tragic happens, it no longer is a film. It's like Polaroid photos. Yeah.

But every maybe 30, 40 minutes. So you're missing a lot of the in between. Yeah. It's just bits of information. And that is literally your body, your brain, trying to protect you. Yeah. Because of how painful that experience was. Yeah.

Yeah. That makes sense. But you stepped in, though. You didn't step away. You stepped in. You stepped in. You moved closer. And you started to really care for Joey and Frankie.

Yeah. All right. So one more thing on childhood, though, that I have to go on. I have to go back to is you regained your confidence. because you went from a place of East London, confident, Essex for a few years, not confident. I'll show you that photo, boom. You said your confidence is there.

Yeah, because I'd left school by then. You know, and then what happened was when I was at that school, I, so let's take it back to the 90s, no internet. We just had the magazines, the weekly magazines, right? And we had our popular ones here, and I used to look at the models, and I used to think, oh my God, like, I used to pin everything on, in a model because I think I'd love to be a model.

Imagine if I was a model then everyone would think I was pretty. You know, like that must have been my thought pattern. I just really wanted to be a model in the magazines. And they used to run these competitions where you could enter. And I used to ask, can I go, can I enter? And it was always like, no, because modeling had like quite a bad rap back in the 90s. It had a bad reputation, you know. And I always used to get told no.

And then one day, my dad called me into the front room, into the front room and said, they're doing a modelling competition in the local paper, which was the

Runtford recorder. And he was like, you should enter. I'm thinking, I know if I've been asking for ages. And he was like, going,

you can enter. So anyway, my nan took me and it was funny enough. It was in Newbury Park. Oh, we've been back there since we've been back there.

And it was in this little tiny studio and they took the photos back then, a professional photographer, to enter you into the competition. So anyway, I goes along and obviously I didn't look anything Clara models should look.

I'd done a full glam, full ringlets, you know, like I'd done the most. Yes. Fake tam. And the photographer must have seen something in me because he was like, do know what? You should actually join to an agency. And like, imagine,

I've been bullied for being ugly all this time. I thought I was ugly. Yes. And now this other person outside of that school was saying you should pursue this, right? Anyway, I did the competition. It was a local competition. And like, I don't think I won or anything.

But the photographer contacted me again and said, can we use your photos for whatever it was and would you like to come in for another shoot? Really? And then he introduced me to an agency. So, like, I think that, you know, and I was on the front cover. They used my photo. I've still got it, this picture. I've got the actual paper.

And yeah, I think that, I was like, maybe I'm not that ugly. But you didn't feel it until you were told by others? No, I didn't. So then you were still at that age struggling with insecurities? Oh, yeah. Okay. And you would say that you were most insecure about what in that time period? I think probably everything.

Yeah, I was insecure about, obviously, the way I looked, but I think everything, who I was, who I was going to be, you know, like, especially with men, like the relationships I used to go after, or ones that I didn't, couldn't really have, you know, it was like always men that were like unavailable, even from quite young. So I was just like, and also not being financially safe or secure, just a lot for that age. Right. I was paying rent from 17. I had big responsibilities.

So then there's a moment that you said that really changes everything for you that was meeting Simon Webb's PA. Yeah. So like fast forward from that moment, yeah. I've had Maddie. I've decided to leave my relationship. Okay. Broke off the engagement, sold the house, got my own place with Maddie.

I have to. Well, okay. There's a million questions and I'm noting in my mind all these places to come back to. No, this is really good because I definitely want to talk about Maddie properly so you've broken up.

Broken up. You left the house. You have Maddie. Me and Maddie are good. Are you, because you were a Playboy Bunny as well. Yeah, but not yet. Oh, not yet. Okay, all right.

So you're working makeup? Yeah, driving. I passed my test. Started going to the gym and at the time there was a football club that used to train there and all the footballers hitting on me

the confidence he's growing okay yeah got my body in check okay so I was like feeling very confident now Maddie and I are brilliant everything's perfect then I meet a guy absolutely took the stuffing out of me

and that's when I started to go out and start partying and things like that and that's although I don't regret I just wish that I would have been a bit more of a calm of mom, like more of a stay-at-home mom. I could have given her that.

Do you know what I mean? I can't, I don't know, can anyone say they've been a perfect parent? No. I can't claim that. I can't sit here and let you paint me out to be that because I don't think that's true. You know, so interesting. But I've been a ride or die a parent.

Yes, you have, you have. But you know what's so interesting. And this, to me, is hitting me for the first time is when I said, do you have any regrets on your parenting? You were very quick to say, yes. Yeah. But if I were to say, do you have any regrets in life? I don't know if you'd be that quick to go back and say, yes.

And I think the same way. I think, you know what, everything was a lesson. All the hard times helped me to learn A, B, C. But as a parent, I do have regrets. Yeah. You know? So I'm with you. I'm with you on that.

So you meet this guy. You enter what we would call what a toxic relationship. That's the word. Okay, so it's a toxic relationship. You start partying for the first time. You're going out, smoking, drinking. I've hit in the clubs with my new bod. New bod.

Getting all the attention. But you're also with someone at the same time. Well, on and off. Okay. Because he was like an in-and-out kind of person. Okay. He'd done a number on me so hard that then basically... It led me to become famous in a way because I met him and my new friend the same night.

Simon Webb's PA and that guy, I met him on exactly the same night and they both changed my life. Not necessarily for the best, but they did. So Ellie, my friend, she was Simon Webb's PA, which is also super weird. And then I was like, oh my God, that's so weird. He stopped me when I was younger, blah, blah, blah. He lived around the corner from me at the time. Okay. Like literally a street away from each other

She was from Manchester So she was new in Essex So we started going out I was freshly single She was obsessed with Maddie So she always wanted to come around And she was like really tiny then You know

And so then we started going out And she was very on the scene Like she knew everyone What club this that contacts I didn't know anything You know So then I started going out with her On weekends

And she'd be coming hanging out with me and Maddie in the week here and there. We've become, we're still best friends to this day, me and this girl. But unfortunately, I met that guy as well, which was really good for the first few months until it weren't. And then things went downhill. Yeah, this is the classic love bombing story. Yeah, it really, like, I really just didn't need to meet him.

I feel like things would just be so much better if I hadn't of, but I did. And I just wasn't, I think. that whole first part of my life, I wasn't equipped for that. All the trauma come out then, all of it, you know. So, yeah, that was when I was, I was only like, I think I was 26 and I joined Towie at 29, right in the peak of my... I see it. So how much are you open to discussing about that guy? Well, I can't talk about him in great detail

But it was like pretty Pretty messy It was messy Yeah, it was messy It just basically It was like Like I was like really doing well Like a steam train

I was like powering through And he just derailed me And to say That I don't think I recovered Really until about a year ago Two years ago Like I feel like that's how long It damaged

me mentally and I feel sometimes am I pinning all the trauma on him like all of my life did I just pin that on him or did he just really do a number on and off over the years I don't know probably have to have a lot of psychological tests but he stayed in and out in and out in and out and I felt like I couldn't really commit to any other relationships because I was always thinking that because he'd always come back you know and then eventually I I I don't know, I just woke up and snapped out of it, but I had hit my 40s by then. I see.

So this is ongoing. Yeah. Do you feel as if in the relationship with him, you were manipulated? Yeah, I wouldn't even call it a relationship. It was like an on off. It was on and off. It could have like a year where we wouldn't see or talk to each other, and then somehow I would make, fantasize it or, no, not fantasize it.

What's the word? Like, I would make it, oh, it's fate. and it's going to work to my romanticize it. Romanticize it. Yeah. You know, so this is something that I'm finding really interesting about partners because it's not always men, women do this as well,

but those that are really good with manipulation but also coercion, right? Right. Because what ends up happening with love bombing, and love bombing is such a popular term, but I don't think that we fully understand what is happening with love bombing. Right. So love bombing is a fast track of attachment. It is someone showering you with words and gifts and accolades, etc. so that you believe that you are closer, faster. And the reason why they do this, and they don't even internalize, they don't even understand why they're doing it, but they do it to hide the manipulation or the abuse. that was him to an absolute tear I met I went out to

I was in a boogey nightclub mine's in my business I was having a fun time he was there he met me I weren't interested I just rushed him off weren't interested I was leaving the club I got to the top of the stairs

he was there and he's like where are you going do you want to come to an after party he went bibbib and he clicked a brand new car but a car that was like So wildly out of reach, you wanted to show me the car. And even I was a bit too back because I was like, he looks, he was young.

Like, who is this guy? Straight away, my mind's triggered. Like, who is this? Right. Do you know what I mean? We go to the after party, then the love bombing. He did the gifts, the words, the constant phone calls, like very quickly asking me to be his princess, which translated to girlfriend.

And I was like, obviously, trying to play it cool. But I was like, whoa. Right. You know, this must have been why I left Matthew because I was going to meet this guy. So that was it. And I just wasn't ready. I wasn't mentally prepared for the real world at this point.

I'm sure I would have mentioned him to you on one of the celebs go dating because he was constantly... In the thing? He was there. Yeah. But I can honestly say that recently, I'd say since I moved to America, I re-snapped out of that. Then you were stabbed up.

He did the classic love. bombing and then retracting. I'd do one little thing, went here for him for five days. I'd go completely insane. And in the end, even though I knew I'd done nothing wrong, I'd be sorry,

because I'd just, anything to just get him to come back. That's what he started doing. And this went on for a really long time. It took me over a decade to realize that he hasn't changed. I don't know. And I think I had to grow up. You know, I do genuinely think that I'm really immature

for my age. I do think that. Even to this day. Yeah. I'm young at heart and I think that I, it took me so long to mature, you know, like and be able to look at the situation and think, hang on a minute, it hasn't changed.

Nothing's changed. He's actually worse, you know? Yes. And I deserve way better than this. Like, and it's so cringy to say that. You know, and you've got all this social media, I deserve, I deserve, I deserve. But I do deserve better than that.

And I am a good, I'm a, I would be in a, amazing wife, you know? So like, yeah, it took me ages to snap out of that. And Chloe, that's your self-worth building back up. Because I think I would argue that you're already mature, but you now recognize what you bring to the table, what you bring to the world. You know what you're worth is. Yeah. And you now know that there's a certain level that you won't accept anything below. Oh, no, I know, but now I might have took that too far, Paul. You've done two dating shows together. Now it's like, yeah, I don't know.

Maybe I've took it like so. To the next level. They do say that the older you get, the more, the list gets longer. Yeah, but then it goes down. So when my wife and I had our matchmaking agency. Yeah. This is what would happen. This was the funniest thing, right?

Is that we would have clients that were maybe 25 and they'd have a few things on their list. And then as they get up to about mid-40s, they would have 150 items on their list. And then you know what happens after about mid-40s? What? Don't tell me. It drops all the way down. Oh, no. And by 60, you know what you're going to be asking?

Can he walk up steps? Yeah. Does he have any hair? Does he have any hair? What? No, Paul, I need you to help me out. Please tell me you still get your contacts in New York. Oh yeah, yeah, in New York.

You see these dating apps? Yes. I know I'm going off your subject, but I can't help it. When I went to LA, I joined a couple of dating apps because no one knows me there. This is true. I can be whoever I am there. But I did it. I went on free dates.

It was a fucking nightmare. Yeah. They're insane. And also, I don't go for looks. Like, I can appreciate good looks. What do you for? I don't go for looks. I can't go for the feeling.

No, it's the Bluetooth, it's the magic. I can't tell you for an app. They're all. awful. They're awful in my age group. I have thoughts. I do. That are non-dating app thoughts, but overall-dating apps don't work for me. They're not working. I'm looking at them. I'm like, no, no, I can, if me and you sat together, you'd be horrified because the things I pick out about people is really bad. Yeah, I think that would be hard for you. I think meeting through mutual friends,

but outside of the UK is for you. So you need introductions in New York. Or it could be anywhere. But we're going to get to guys. Can anyone tell me why roaming fees are always so expensive? I feel like every time I get back from traveling overseas, I'm hit with a jaw-dropping phone bill. It's actually why I'm excited to try our new partner, Saley,

an ESIM app that gives you a safe and secure data connection anytime you travel, and, most importantly, without any expensive roaming charges. Now, quite a few of my team, Saley during our last trip to LA and all accounts were that it was reliable and easy to set up. Saly is available in over 200 destinations and it comes with built-in security features like web protection and ad blockers. The stuff you don't typically think about but actually when you're traveling is really important to keep your data protected. But the part that really pulls me in is that I can change my online location to the UK so even if I'm somewhere else any location

blocked content is still accessible. To give it a try, download Saly from the App Store or scan the QR code on the screen. And if you want 15% off your first purchase, make sure you use my code, WNTT at checkout. Details are in the episode description. You said this place was steps from the water. We just haven't found the steps yet. How much did we save?

Enough. Enough to get lost. Or you could book a stay with Hilton. Welcome to your oceanfront room. Just steps. the water. The Hilton sale is on now. Book on Hilton.com or the Hilton app

and save up to 20% to get the stay you expected. When you want savings, not surprises, it matters where you stay. Hilton, for the stay. Wishing you could be there live for the big game, soaking up the atmosphere in the crowd, but too often, life gets busy, or the price holds you back.

Priceline is here to help you make it happen. With millions of deals on flights, hotels and rental cars, you can go see the game live. Don't just dream about the trip. Book it with Priceline. Download the Priceline app or visit Priceline.com. Actual prices may vary, limited time offer. You said that it was still, it was that same night, though, you met the PA, Ellie, who's now your good friend. So how did she then change?

Oh, right. Yeah. How did she change? So we become friends. And then she ended up moving in with me. I had a, I had a, it was like a two bedroom house, but it had two reception rooms. So we took one of the reception rooms into a bedroom and then she could split the rent with me. And she also helped me with Maddie, you know.

So, and she was like, we were really, like, close and like we still are really, really close. So anyway, she's ended up living with me. She's working for Simon. She's overhearing stuff. one day she come back and she's like listen you know that show you like the hills they're making an six one and Simon and his then girlfriend are going on it

and she was like I've got the number you need to ring them and honestly to me I was like what the fuck are you talking about I'm not ringing them do you know what are you insane what could have just ring a producer like that sounded crazy like so she rang on her phone and just went like that And I remember I was in my kitchen and I was like scared, you know. I was like, hello. And anyway, it was the producer.

She was from Liverpool. She had a Scowse accent. And she was like, we'd love to meet you, blah, blah, blah. And I went and met them, had a drink. Obviously, they were interested. Back then they didn't have a channel. It was like a pipe dream. Do you know what I mean?

Okay. So the show had not started. No. They didn't even have a channel at that point. It was just a concept. Okay. And they were like, half. I guess.

Maybe, I don't know what they were doing. I sent no TV back then. So anyway, that was that. I was like, flattered that they liked me. And they said, from now on, can you keep like a weekly diary and send it to us of what you get up to throughout the week? So I was like, all right, then. I was doing my Playboy job.

So obviously that's quite interesting. I was going to France. It was French Playboy, which is a franchise. Okay. And so is it a club for French Playboy's? No, it was basically, I don't, I don't know what you were calling. a promotional Oh, kind of like, okay, I think.

So they, clubs would book us. So they had like the, they had the right to use the Playboy staff. They had the Playboy car, the Playboy merch, and then the Playboy at costumes, I guess. And they'd have four bunnies and we would be booked to go all round France, Switzerland. Oh my goodness. So, like, I partied in like the VIP club in San Jose. I used to do go-go dancing in there.

Sometimes we'd be on a beach party. whoever booked you could be a casino and can, you know, and it weren't just nice, boozy places, it was far out, weird places too, like in the middle of nowhere, in the sticks in France. France is massive. Yes, yes. And also the people in France, especially in them deep places,

they're not like in Paris, they're like, really just not looking like a playboy bunny. So when we come stalking in, you know, like all tall with our little bodies hanging out, they were like, whoa, no? Was that, did? Just in that experience, because I remember seeing images of my aunt as a Playboy Bunny, because I didn't even know she was. Like it was one of these, you know, secrets that I didn't know about.

And then all of a sudden I saw these photos and it was like, oh, my God, that's you out there. And I remember her saying that she learned a lot about just people, you know, and men and how people interact. What would you say that you learned being a Playboy Buny? Well, I don't know because that was like when I used to like drinking. So I was just a bit crazy and drunk. And we were treated like celebrities and people that followed that Playboy France would follow us around to different venues. They would.

Yeah. So like I would, we would stand. There would be a moment where people could have a photo in front of the step board or whatever it is. And they'd be like, do you remember me? And like they'd be going, look. and they'd had a photo with you a couple of weeks ago or a month ago. It was a bit like you was treated like a celebrity.

Interesting. And I was like obviously totally here for that, you know? Because I was like, yeah, I was here for it. Like walking in the club with security, table roped off, Playboy tour car, flights. I was catching the flights that I didn't think I'd be getting. Every week I was on a plane. So I felt pretty bushy and like.

So you enjoyed it. I liked it. But you were partying though. I was getting drunk. Yeah. Yeah. Because it was the weekend as well. So I worked and partied and got paid.

And then I'd Monday to Friday go back to being my mom. Okay. Look at that. Look at that. So that's part of your weekly schedule. So those producers for Towie, which for the five people who don't know, the only way is Essex. Yeah. Right.

So those producers and the show had not yet hit air, as you said. No. They must have loved that schedule. Yeah. Okay. But they wanted me to leave. Stop being a Playboy, buddy. Yeah.

Basically, by the time they got a channel, they met up with me again. And I was like, we can't tell you what channel it is, but it's a really good one. But you're going to have to leave your job and we're not going to pay you. And I was like, are you mental? Do you know how good my job is? Other than Towie, as a single broke mom, being a Playboy Bunny was actually amazing. Imagine my Facebook pictures, you know? Like, what?

I was like, you're mad. I'm not doing that. And then also, just to add insult, at the time, Big Brother was on. And people were coming out of their really hated. Like, you know, like, really, like, to the point where people were, like, sending death threats and shit. And I knew that my personality is my, my, like, I knew that there's a good chance that I could be loved or hated. And I remember laying in bed and looking at Maddie and thinking, is this the right thing to do? Like, is this right for her?

You know, she was, like, so little. innocent and I was like I just wasn't sure. Okay. Yeah, I'm not saying going to France every weekend and getting drunk was great either, but was it good to put myself out there like that? What if I wasn't received well? Yes. So I was scared all round.

Plus I just weren't going to leave my job. Absolutely not. Wow. So I didn't do it. I turned it down. Turn it down. Yeah. And the producer at the time,

she only did that season, which makes me a bit sad because I didn't get to work with her. She moved to Maiden Chelsea. And she kept ringing me and she was like, but please let me just meet up with you. Please. Like let me just have a chat with you. This could change your life. I was like, no, I got on my high horse.

And then I started getting freaked out because I was like, why are you so on my case to do this? I started getting the horrors a little bit, you know. Not thinking it's because she sees something in me. I started thinking she's trying to do me over in some way, you know? So I was like, no, I'm not doing it. I turned it down. You turned down meeting her

Yeah So you had turned down the series The first series I turned it all down I was like leave me alone Okay And then I carried on doing Playboy Bunny And then I remember

Going through Lut and Airport Which is an absolute crap hole By the way And I went past the newsstand And all the magazines was Towie Every single one of them And I do you do next So then

A producer sir, I wouldn't be able to tell you who, contacted Simon's then-girlfriend to get my phone number and said, can we get a number? So, obviously, I was like, yeah, of course, that went to Ellie and then it went to me. And I was like, yeah, and obviously I was like, a bit taken back at what are they calling me for. And they said something along the lines of we're contacting everybody that didn't do season one for whatever reason to see how you're feeling now. So I was like obviously very keen to do it.

Yes. And back then they were very strict on secrecy. He wasn't how to tell anybody. So I didn't tell anybody. I was so, I needed that chance so much at that point that I didn't tell a soul except for Ellie. And my dad, that's it. Nobody knew, including Joey. Joey did the same to me.

Oh, wow. Wow, that's interesting. Yeah. Your own cousin. We didn't know. Oh, my gosh. Yeah. I didn't know about him, he didn't know about me, until I was in one of the meetings,

and they were talking about my family, whatever, and I said, Joey, I must have said Joey Essex, I don't know why, what I would have been saying. And I remember the reaction of the producer's face, and he was like, your cousin's Joey Essex, but I was confused because Joey was a kid then, so I was thinking, how do they know Joey? You know, it didn't even cross my mind that he was being cast for the show. Look at that. And I was like, your cousins, like first cousins. And I was like, yeah.

And that was it. Rest was history. Look at that. Look at that. Yeah. So you had to quit Playboy. Oh, I was well over it by then. Yeah, I was done with that.

I was then funny who's got thrown right out of the window. Oh, no. You threw away the funny ears. I was out, yeah. All right. So you now land on TOWY. This is the second series. Yeah.

Okay. And I didn't realize this, but you know this. You were the longest running cast member, the history of TOWI. Do you know how many series you were on? I'm going to say 29. 29 series. Yeah. 29.

And I was 29 when I joined. So that's a series every year. Yeah. Gosh. Now, think about that. So when you think about Tawi, right, there's so much that we could talk about. But what immediately comes to mind? Because sometimes people reflect back at projects and they're uncomfortable with them.

They don't want to be associated with them. Sometimes they're very appreciative of what they did. What's your perspective on your time with Tawi? When I think of Tawi, like, it's fond. It's fond memories. It was hard, Paul. Like, I joined TV when there weren't a lot of roles. And there weren't all this, like, you know, like,

They just, it was different TV times. Let's put it that way. There was allowed to be little rascals. But overall, I had a blast. I had 10 years of an absolute blast. Like, there was a lot of highs and lows. Don't get me wrong, but it completely changed my life overnight, like that. And it had a lot of negativity.

It was like a, you know, a bit of a seesaw. But as far as, like, where I am today, I could never have got this. without Tower. I wouldn't have this any. I wouldn't even be sitting with you. We wouldn't know each other if it wasn't for that. You said it changed your life like that. Overnight.

Overnight. How so? Well, I went on a TV show for two weeks, didn't tell a soul, I let it go out. Can you imagine what happened with my phone? I didn't have any social media. I only had Facebook, which I disabled, because that was what advice I'd been given.

Okay. And one of the other cast members, she made me a Twitter. I didn't even know what Twitter was. I didn't have it. She was like, you need Twitter. And she set it all up. And I remember my blackberry going, Pim, bim, bim, bim, bim, bim, bim. It was like crashing because it was so mental.

This TV show just was so big. Yes. I had a very negative entrance, again, about my looks. Because now I took it too far. So now everyone was like, oh, look at her lips. Look at her missing tooth. She's this. She's ugly.

blah blah blah. So then I had all that negativity. Interesting. But that's not Towie's fault. They were just filming me how I was, you know? But like the press, yeah, they were terrible as a way to describe them. They was allowed to talk about us in any which way they was allowed. It was like a given then.

They used to call me like car crash Chloe and talk about my looks and like use really unflattering photos. But I didn't really give a shit. I was making all this much. I was getting, I was getting chased by Papps, like me and Maddie were living, you know, like I was thinking I've done it. I've sorted me and Maddie out, like we're good. You were like, I've arrived.

Yeah, next minute I had a brand new car, brand new out of the showroom. Like, you, that girl that was stood in the shop, he didn't have anything, just paying her rent. Suddenly, I had it all. I went off to L.A., started taking Maddie on lovely holidays. And I thought, wow, like, so I'm sorry. of rags to riches overnight story. Where does the money in the early time of TOWY? Where does the money come from?

Because what I understand is they weren't paying you. No, they didn't pay in series one. In series two, they paid for your expenses. Okay. Which was £50 every time you filmed, not per day. And at the time, we were filming like six days a week. But we was earning money from magazine interviews, appearances and PAs. Lots of money.

I see. Money that I had an ad ever. So it's not lots of money compared to like what the Kardashians have got. Right. But a lot of money in comparison to what I had. Yes, yes. So I see. So as soon as the show hits the air, it starts coming in.

Yeah, like people wanted to do fake tans with me, clothing lines with me. Plus you're getting given everything. Yes. So you're not even really spending as much money now. I didn't even really have to buy stuff. That stuff, tell a lie that, did come later. The first season, I did make money, but this is a true story. When I joined, I had my life savings and it was £1,000.

And I remember having to dip into that to get clothes originally because I needed the clothes to wear. Because obviously six days a week, I didn't have enough clothes for that. Yes. So, yeah, I remember dipping into that. But then I started getting my deals and everything for free. Interesting. Yeah. But even dip, I would imagine, because you'd been saving that.

that for that thousand pound was my life line that was my my my Nanaway said always have something put away for an emergency and don't spend it and even if I borrowed something out of it I'd always put it back you know okay so and you dipped in to buy and some people would say you dipped in to buy clothes but it seems like your plan was no when I show up on this show I'm going to make sure that people see me yeah it was an investment I was that that was my life savings and I lived above a clove shop and then facing it was another clove shop and I was going in there and buying the dresses and then eventually they said you ain't got paid for them no more just do us a tweet and I was like okay so I should just run across there so it did work out a good investment

buying them few dresses because then they started giving them to me what would you say was the darkest moment for you when you think back throughout your entire time on towie oh there was a lot of them I don't like talking about all the negative stuff as much because I don't, I hate that wo-mey thing. Yes. And honestly, when I watch other people do interviews like this or podcasts like this and they're very like, I don't really need anyone to feel sorry for me kind of vibe, you know.

Yes. But I will say it takes a certain person to last that long on a TV show like that because the dark side is the manipulation at filming especially in them early days before rules and regulations come in. The press is really hard to read shit about yourself constantly. And as you probably know, social media, that was like just, when they brought Instagram out, what a nightmare. Because then these people had direct contact, direct.

They could just DM you and tell you whatever they want to tell you. And like there was some really like, I was getting slaughtered is the only word to describe it constantly. Because I was outspoken and I was involved in a lot of arguments. But I'm not naturally out here arguing with anybody, honestly. It become a thing. Like you know some of the producers quite well who I am close still to this day with. And it become a bit of a joke behind the scene because it was like, well, if you get into a big scene with Chloe Sims, you've made.

made it and it was like an ongoing thing and haters would say that weren't the case but it was and like the top producers used to make it into a joke well you've made it now got your big scene with Chloe Sims and then like jokingly it would be like is this the minute I'm going to let my crown slip am I going to lose this argument that become a huge pressure to me to the point where my mental health weren't great because I was so stressed out all the time I was branded in a certain way and I don't I'm not upset about that as the ice queen as you know I went I'm not an ice queen it's ridiculous right you're not I was always the ice queen on every show and like I was argument if and I was in the drama but I don't row with people actually do the opposite you someone piece

of them I just don't talk to them silence it's finished the back like it's gone you know like if you take it too far where I've fallen out of you that's it so like it's not I'm not in this argumentate state but that's my pigeonhole. Like, that's everyone had to have their moment, they're seeing with me. Yes. And that over a decade really, really affected me to the point where I felt like I couldn't even deliver it anymore.

I was, like, really ill. Like, because I knew it was coming, that confrontation was seen, but I didn't know when because they didn't tell you. So, like, I'd have sleep at nights. I could feel the anxiety in my chest now because I'd go asleep thinking, right, well, they're going to say that. And then I'll have to say this. And I'd be thinking of my points.

because under pressure and then people are watching me, a whole room full of people, cameras, and I've got to, you know, fire all my shots. So, and not forget anything, because it's so painful when you watch it back and you're like, I should have said that. I don't have she's owned me there or he's got me over there. So, like, that pressure really, really mentally affected me.

I was ill. I couldn't even get the words that used to shake. And I remember in the scenes towards the end, I'd put my hands behind my back or I'd sit like this, Like, because I wouldn't want them to see my hands were shaking. But it wasn't because I was frightened. It was the anxiety. It was overtaking my whole body at that point.

Yes, yes. It was awful. What was the fear? Was the fear that if you lost the argument, someone had more points than you? It was like a thing that I, I can't explain it, like a crown I was wearing. Like, as Queen of Towie?

Do you know what I mean? Yes. And like, and I guess it was like an ego thing because what difference does it make whether I lose an argument really? Do you know what? Why is it even important? So what if I didn't win an argument?

What was they even arguing about? I don't know. I couldn't tell you. Yeah, yeah. Who's right and who's wrong? And time when I should have been sitting, this is what I mean about the parenting thing, when I should have been playing with Maddie

and cooking cakes and doing fun shit, I wasn't because I was rehearsing a really unimportant an argument that I was going to have on the next three days on Toway. And where, like, it doesn't matter, does it? No. Really, I should have just laughed at them because I was already, I was already at the top. I didn't really need to prove myself to anyone new that come on, you know? Yeah.

Well, I'd say for me, this is, and this is, it feels pathetic to say it, but I feel like we're crying to each other about this. Really, you're the first person I've been able to talk to about this is I feel as if if I quote unquote lose one of those battles. By the way, I'm undefeated out here on these streets. I'm sure. But I feel, okay, if I lose one, then that's like an etch in my armor. Yeah.

And then two or three, I no longer have value. But I want to just say something to you, is someone who's like stepped out of this for a minute. Like, it don't matter. And actually who decides who did and didn't win the other? argument because like say me and you were having an argument right now and and and I etched you do as you said but do you that's all down to perspective because how do you know that the people really think that that's just me and you at the time would have thought that

right you know because like with your poised exterior you're already in a position of like the power in that show that we're talking about you're already here you're the expert so it doesn't really matter what the person who's come on Because they're there to learn from you, right? Yes. So even if they disagreeing with you, it doesn't really matter because you're the expert still. You're still going to go home and be the expert. Right.

And tomorrow you're still the expert and so on. Don't waste your time worrying about that because I think British TV does that to you. Yeah. It's brutal. It's one of those where sometimes I look at it and say, I'm like, how have I been able to survive for eight years? I mean, you're a decade. It's survival. It is survival.

It is a very, especially. Especially in that industry that I do, it is all about survival. It's a bit of like a dog-eat-dog thing, although I am grateful. Yes. Extremely. Agreed. Agreed. You have to be a type of person.

And I discovered that with other people along the way, you know, like that couldn't handle it, you know. Yeah, yeah. I think my second scene was a busy sugar hut, which was a nightclub back then. and there was loads of extras in there. And I wasn't famous yet because series two hadn't even gone out yet. We did two weeks filming. And they made me walk from one end of the nightclub in front of everybody, all the cameras, all the way to the other end,

and make conversation with Gemma Collins. Oh, wow. And I think it might have been Kirk and his late dad, Mick. And they didn't know me. I didn't know them. And I had to walk up to them by myself. already talking and just get in there. Right.

And I was like, what do you mean? Because nowadays that's not how it works on Towey. They are all set up and you sat where you sat in. Back then it was so raw. And they just, we just started talking and that was it. And I remember the scene and I was shaking. It was really scary. So was those moments again and again and again you think that just, it was like, it was sink

or swim. Yeah, it was really sink or swim. And I, inside, I could have definitely done a runoff. I didn't want to do it. I was scared. I was really, and I remember trying to control the shaking my voice and appear like I wasn't absolutely shaking inside because I was. And that happened for lots of times.

There probably would have been, yeah, there would have been times on celebs go dating when they'd done that to me, like when they made me come down the stairs. Yes. Start talking to men. I was scared and that's why I used to drink. Can we talk about? So celebs? Yeah.

All right. So celebs go dating was when we met. The year is 2018. Right. All right. This was my first series here in the UK. I thought I would be here for three months. And that was it.

And look at this. Yeah. And you did celebs. Now, when you did celebs, I didn't think you were someone who was insecure or someone who, um, was unin-charge of your identity and your brand and who you were. You seem to be ultra-confident to me, very, very confident. And I looked around and I saw that everyone viewed you as that.

I wasn't, though. I didn't feel like that inside. I would have had a lot of times where I would have been nervous. Well, one thing that must have helped you as well was Vass being on the show. Yeah. Vass was on there. Oh, yeah. Yeah, and Vass was incredible.

Yeah. like one of my biggest supporters, like I, as I am him, you know. So like, yeah, having Vass and like, obviously like once I'd done a couple of days filming, I connected with you as well. So I started to feel good because we had Olivia as well, didn't really. Olivia was on the show? Yeah. So, like, I had like people around me, like, where I felt fine.

But like, yeah, inside I wouldn't have been how you thought I was. Yeah. But okay, so, so, so, celebs, but did you enjoy, you must have enjoyed it because you came back. I loved that show. I used to say, I think to Amphia, like, can't I just do this every time? I actually asked if I could be an expert on it at one point. She said, go and do a course, and then maybe you can. And I didn't.

And I would have loved to have been on there. I can't tell you how to get a husband, but I can tell you a lot of dating stuff. Yes. Because I have dated a lot of different types of people. I can give a lot of good dating advice. But I can't tell you how to close the deal. That's the problem. Okay. What's your best dating advice?

Don't. Don't. Don't. Oh, just don't date. No, I'm joking. I'm joking. I mean, I don't actually do I know. I feel like I'll be the good agony aunt person on there. But anyway, you know, you've got all the different experts. I've got their different things. They can't do each other's jobs. Yes.

Well, I feel like I'll be good at the agony aunt situation and the, you know, I can connect with anybody. Because I've been through a lot of different things. You can. I think I'll be good at the advice it. I think I would, yeah. So industry-wise, though, right? Do you think the industry would accept you in that way? No.

Well, I'm not married, so how can I be a relationship expert? Do you think, how do you think the industry views you? The industry won't let me be anything other than Chloe from Towie. They won't. I've got a show that I done the concept for. I produced it. as an executive producer and series one

I basically edited that show alone. I picked every scene that went in there and then we got it onto Netflix when I say we I mean me and my brother and still no one wants to talk about it This is House of Sims

Yeah but I mean but you got it on Netflix people don't want to They do not want to mention that in this country It was like I don't I don't know I don't know this is why when I was saying to you, not just because of this, because there's lots of reasons why I prefer New York to London,

but like I feel like, this is probably going to upset a lot of viewers who are English, but I feel like the British public. They like a sob story, and they like to build you up, but just not too high, just to where they think he should be, and then they like to tear you down or watch you fall down.

There's a cap, and like I genuinely, believed that I did peak around the time I met you here. That was, I was at the top there in that part of my industry. Okay. And it was like, you're not going to go any further than that, though. It's like, I feel like, and it's not just the general public. I feel like the industry, they didn't, the media, just they, they like me for who

I am, but they don't want to see me do any more than that. That's how I feel. So then, did you, were you aware of, did you feel that way in, this is, 2018. Did you feel that way? No, because I was like, I was like, I was in a good position, wasn't I? Yes. But like after that, obviously I did the show again.

How many times can I keep doing the same things? Like, that whole single thing. Like, I wasn't really allowed to have a relationship, if we're honest, because that's how I used to book shows because I was like desperately single or whatever they wanted me to be. But the truth is I don't actually feel like that. I do want to meet somebody. Yes.

But I want to meet somebody who I'm like absolutely head over heels in love with. Like I want to meet my person, you know. It isn't like I need him. I don't need somebody, Paul. I've been on my own for such a long time. I've got a child. We're a little team. Do you know what I mean?

Yes. So like, yes, I would like to meet somebody. But then things I used to say on them dating shows, like, I just want to get married. And I don't really give a crap. I just want you to get paid. That's what I wanted to do. Fair. Do you know what I mean?

That's fair. Yeah. It's fair. I can't say that I, I can't say that it's the Be or Rendell if I do meet somebody. I would like to. I feel like I've got a bit of a fantasy with my husband being in New York. I genuinely think he's there. I feel like that's my, where my guy would be.

He's not in London. He's definitely not in Essex. And he's not in California unless he's visiting. Okay. He's not. But he's in New York? I feel like he's in. New York when I'm there, the men are just different there.

Yeah. You know. And part of that, though, you have to admit to this is that what we do psychologically is we assign a premium to what is different. Right. So. Yeah. So you mean I'm putting them up higher?

Exactly. Because they're different. Because quite honestly, I do the same thing when I'm in the UK. Right. You know, something that it's funny, something that I tell all of my friends, this is funny, I tell friends in New York, I was like, you've got to find a wife in the UK. Really? I was like, you've got to find a wife. Like, they're incredible in the UK.

Like, they're great. They're funny. And it's almost as if what I'm doing is exactly what you're doing. I am putting a premium on people in the UK because this is different to me. And also because we're both open-minded. If we were close-minded, we would say, no, we're better than that. But we're open-minded, so we lean in. And we say, no, the accent, the vibe, the everything we love.

It's the same thing. Like, I love, that's what I love about here. So that's what I think it is. But if I can ask, I have to ask you this, though, is that you just said something key. and that was that a key part or an important part of your career was you always being single. This is the key. This is what people wanted to book Chloe Sons for. Do you believe that that brand impacted the relationships that you had off screen?

Maybe, maybe not, because I did have an on and off thing all along. So I'll be on a date with someone And then I'll be using the car texting someone Or someone else So it wasn't all as it seemed But what did used to piss me off And it still pisses me off sometimes now Is the perception

I have to remind myself It doesn't really matter Because I don't know these people When they're like, oh, you're still single Like when I'll post on like TikTok or something They're a bit ruthless on the app And they'll write things like, yeah But you're still not married

On something that I'm celebrating you know right and and i think god is that is that the only thing that will make me a success yes and even like i've experienced living in los angeles now and i've got my own place there i still have this thing inside of me where i've got more lives i want to live yeah like i want to try my new york life and then i want to experience that and i also sometimes think like how amazing would it be to like live far out you know, like in Joshua a tree and like have my own vegetables

growing and have complete peace. Like, but never in all them times does it rely on a man. I'm never thinking, oh wait, when I get a man I'll be able to go and live in New York. I'm thinking, actually, I might rent my place out in L.A. and go and rent a place in New York's too expensive to buy there, you know?

Exactly. So it's like, why is my success leveled on whether I got a husband or not? Because I actually could have one, but unless I'm fully in love with that man to the point where I love every hair on his head, I'll be unhappy. Yeah. You know, what you just said is gospel, because most people who do have a husband or a wife

are unhappy. Yeah. You know, 80%, like the research is very clear, 80% of people in committed relationships slash marriage are not satisfied. Yeah. So you'd rather be in a relationship and not satisfied or single? and satisfied. Yeah.

It's like, I don't know, because you're married, obviously. And you did you advise me and tell me a little bit about marriage and stuff and that and that you work on your marriage and stuff. But like, I know there's other people that I know are married that genuinely are unhappy, but they're like, for whatever the attached thing or financially or what people will think, whatever it is. Like, I don't, luckily, thank God, I actually am not in that position. So, like, I can choose to be in a relationship.

And I haven't met someone good enough for me. I just haven't. He's not matching the energy, you know. Yes. I want to, the next guy that I even date, I'm not even dating. I don't talk to anybody. I've got no one texting me, nothing. The next person I meet, it has to be a serious thing.

Because otherwise, what's the point? He's just taking up my time. Yeah. You know? But I think what's challenging, though, is that you don't know. if it should be serious, unless you spend time getting to know them. But I'll have a good feeling in my chest. You think, Chloe.

I will. You think off of just your feeling, you'll know whether or not. I'm not going to know whether he's going to be the one, but I'll know, like, if I've got that immediate interest and attraction to that person. Yes. Like, I went on one date while I was in New York off the app. It was a good date. I didn't stay in touch with him, but it was like,

I went on the date and it was just everything about the date was a really good day. And I thought if this is what dating in New York looks like, then I think this is a really good place to start. He was a gentleman. He wasn't flexing. He was educated. He showed interest in my career and like what I do. And like, I don't know, like, we just had a really good conversation.

And then when it comes to the end of the day, he dropped me off in a yellow cab. I love that. Real gentleman. Yes. You know, nothing like people that I've dated here, not doing all that, showing off business. And, you know, I'm just not into any of that. You're not, okay, fair, fair.

One last topic, menopause. Oh, my God, yeah. Did you know much about menopause, perimenopause before recently? Yeah, do you feel like they've just invented perimenopause? because that come out of nowhere. It feels, I mean, for me, I knew nothing about it until recently. Same? Yes.

I didn't know perimenopoles was a thing until I started having perimenopals, honestly. I didn't really know the difference, and I didn't really pay much attention because, like, until you get to a certain age, why would you? And actually, I think I'm quite late to the party at 44, because some people can get it at late 30s, early 40s. They say from 40-ish. didn't they? Yes.

So I feel like I'm actually quite late to this party. And I kind of forgotten about it, you know, like didn't even, weren't really expecting it. So when I did start experiencing symptoms was just really recently. So then it overtakes your whole mind because I was like, shit, this is it, you know. And I really did panic because I had like a couple of weeks of like the hormones. And then I'd done the obvious thing, which is pointless when I got all the blood tests in a panic and went on chat GPT. like put all my symptoms in and it clarified that I've got early signs of perimenopause.

And I actually did think, shit, is this my life now? Like the feelings I was having, is this what my life is going to look like? But luckily, at the moment I can say that I'm in and out. Each month's not the same. Okay. So it's not like two weeks of absolute hell every month. And I was going to say, what are the feelings? But also, let me just define it for everyone.

So paramenopause is the transitional phase leading to menopause. Yeah. The symptoms start. And then menopause is natural permanent end of menstruation and fertility. Women in paramenopause are about 40% more likely to experience depression compared with premenopausal women. Mm-hmm. Right. So what were the symptoms that you felt?

And do you feel like you did feel any level of depression? Yeah. Like the symptoms were, I have always had. struggled with PMT anyway. Okay. So like when it would be that time of the month, leading up to that, I would know. And actually, funny enough, Luke and everyone around me used to know, because I used to have to pre-warm people, especially in TV.

Because for that week, I would be very, like, lose my temper, cry, overreact, you know, and think things were way bigger than what they were. And I just naturally couldn't help that. So I was a bit scared of menopause because I was thinking like, I'm already kind of like that. I don't really need more of this. So yeah, it's a scary moment. It's a scary change. My friend's done it before me, so she's giving me a lot of advice, you know.

But it's unfortunate timing because, like, I'm thinking about finding a husband and he's probably going to think I'm completely insane. No. For the man's point of view, this would be for all the ladies listening, who are single and going through parents. menopause. Yes. From a man's point of view, obviously your situation is different because you you've got your wife. But like do you not think that it might be scary and unattractive for a guy to have to put up with a woman's hormones? She can't help it. Yes. She might flip out

because he's lefties something on the floor or he might say the wrong thing and she might get really emotional about it, but she can't help it. Do you not think that the man's going to find that off-putting and think, I might just get with a 30-year-old and swear with this? Well, in matchmaking, there's something that we used to call the matchmaking rule. Right. Which was that most of our men would come into the agency. They would want a woman, one-half their age plus seven.

So a 50-year-old man would come in, and want someone who is, what, 25, so 32. Okay. And that was always the magic number. Right. So that was always typically what was desired. However, over the years, what I've noticed, especially because we're living longer, we're more active,

everyone is, everyone is more youthful to a certain degree. Yeah. Right. That's beginning to even out a little bit, right? Yeah. where you have people who are looking for, or should I say men, heterosexual men, looking for more men that are more women who are closer to their age, but typically always younger.

Younger, yeah. You know, on average. Yeah. And I think this is just, this is the way it's been historically. But then there are the folks that, like me, who I have always dated older women. Yeah. You know, so I think, and this goes back to me like being six years old. You know what I mean?

Yeah. Because I was early in kindergarten. But there are, so it's, you know, there's so many. I think the reason why I say this is such a great time for everyone is that never before have there been more single people. That's one. Never before have there been more single people interested in a committed relationship. That's two. And three, never before have we been more.

informed about what's a healthy relationship. Yeah. Like, we've never been this. Like, we're talking about things today that even when you and I met eight years ago, no one was talking about attachment style and no one was talking about being safe or holding space or any of those things. Yeah. But you now know these are the standards.

These are the things that you need. Yeah. You know, so that's why, you know, I am excited. I do think that you should be out of the country. Yeah, I do. I need to go and waiting for my visa. That's why. People are like, oh, you're still here. I'm thinking, yeah, take it up with the American Embassy. The visa is hard.

We have conversations just like this one every week. So if you haven't already, hit subscribe and I'll see you for the next one. Can we spend just a moment on House of Sims for a second? Because I didn't realize, so you executive produced this, created this, this show, right? Multiple series. of the shows. Two. We did two, yeah. Two series.

It was meant to be four, but we ended up only doing two. Two. That's major. That is the dream, quite frankly, of almost every single person on a reality TV show. He's to be able to then go off an executive produce and star in their own show. Yeah. Right. I have a surprise for you.

And I think this is going to truly blow you away. So remember how I just said, well, what does the industry think of you? And you said, ice queen. Ice queen. Yeah. And the industry, specifically in the UK, what do you think? Would they think of me now? Yes.

I don't know. Do you know? No idea. All right. I want you to. You get a whip out about then. All right. I want you to read this.

So what we did is we reached out to an industry insider here in the UK. Right. Television industry insider. And this is what they had to say about you. You're going to make me publicly speak? Why are you taking me back to school, Paul? Do you want me to read it to you? Yeah.

I'd be more than happy to read it to you. I couldn't read that out loud. All right, but see, this is the letter so you know. Okay. Okay. All right. So we said specifically tell us about Chloe. Mm-hmm.

And this is what they wrote. Chloe Sims is one of the most underestimated, misunderstood women in this industry. She's strong, feisty, and fiercely independent. And she is one of the strongest women I've ever met and yet so incredibly vulnerable. She was the perfect reality star because of her honesty and openness

and her refusal to take... I've stopped, cursing. Sh! She stopped, she doesn't take any shh. You want to fill in the blank for me? It. From anyone. Always confronting,

she was never afraid to call it out, even when it made life hard. She knows who she is. She stands proud. I've always admired this more than she'll ever know. My respect for her exceeds any reality star I've ever worked with. She's built a life for herself and her daughter that is only possible because of her resilience and unwavering belief that she deserves more and she truly does. She deserves an abundance of love and care for the sacrifices she's made for those she loves.

Chloe is fiercely loyal in a powerhouse of a woman Always underestimated But forever exceeding her goals She deserves the world And I have no doubt She will continue to go out and get it Who wrote that now? Are you going to tell me?

Anonymous And it's not anyone we've mentioned Because we've mentioned a few People that we know, a few producers That is someone And that, by the way, is what I hear when I'm making my rounds is just that. Did you know that? Probably not.

I think I probably, I don't know, do you believe in fake? Because I feel like probably I needed to hear that because I felt like I, I feel like I feel like I took a break and I think I needed this break because I needed to come right back to, I don't know, like right back to my core, you know, and when I moved to LA, I mentioned to you when I come in, it was really hard time. House the Sims, L.A. L.A. was my dream. How's the Sims really knocked stuff in our me? I don't know, but I did start to question my career choices. my worth in this industry and like I can't really tell you the rule of everything but he's been tough you know you know I could see that yeah I could see that you have been fighting some

some battles yeah I've been through some battles yeah since I see you last yes even if it has been eight years it's been a good eight years of some battles but without being cliche you like some real growth and And regardless, obviously, like, that person and you think a lot of me, but regardless of what other people may think or think they know, for me, I've gone from, like, a kid on a council state without any money to living in Los Angeles and living out my dream. And, like, I feel like I still got a lot more dreams that I'm going to live.

But, like, I feel like, yeah, even though I don't feel like I've made it yet, I don't know if that's just my personality type because when I look back and I think flipping out like this is mental It is Like it's really mental and I walk around them streets that everybody posts all over the internet And I see them palm trees

And I'm like, I live in L.A. I live in L.A. I have to keep telling myself This is my life. Yes. You know? Yes. I don't know how I much longer for

because it's very expensive but I have their moments so I'm like, shit like I used to say it. I don't know if I said it to you, but an old clip of tow we come up and it said, I said in there, well, I'm going to move to America. I said it. It was the other day.

I might have even saved it on my TikTok and I live there. When I met you, you said you were going to move to America. Did I? You did. I had no way of doing that, by the way. And I wasn't even that well off when I met you financially. So I really just didn't know how I was going to do it. And this opportunity come and I just.

took it with both hands without really, it was very impulsive, Paul. But, but, I mean, but you leaned in. You know, this is reminiscent. You leaning into that opportunity is reminiscent of what happened when your aunt passed away. Yeah. It was instinctive. You just innately knew what to do. Yeah.

And I move closer to home. I'm going to protect my family. I'm not going to think about it. I'm just going to do it. Yeah. That's how I see that you've operated, right? Yeah. This is what you did with this opportunity to executive producer show.

I'm just going to lean into it. Yeah. Make it happen. And you did. Yeah. You did. Honestly, I wouldn't take that role again. I've definitely enjoyed working on some concepts recently,

but I couldn't do both again. Perhaps off to all the producers I've ever worked with. That is a really difficult hard job. Yeah. Doing both, no. No. Okay. Well, you know your limits.

Yeah. You know your limits? Yeah. So then on that show, you have family. Yeah. On that show. Mm-hmm. And your brother.

Charlie. Charlie is, I know, is a bestie of yours. He's my bestie, yeah. Yeah. And just because I want to keep gifting you. Yeah. gifted you're not going to keep making me cry are you no okay no but I but I like I like this Chloe though

I mean I like the other Chloe too what the icedy one no I like this one back I like this one bad if I can I'm going to read this okay this is from your brother Charlie oh God I don't think you're gonna cry I love this one Chloe where do I begin

a mother a sister a best friend and a star. There have been tough times, and there have been beautiful times, moments that felt too good to be true, in moments so low you wondered if they'd ever end. And through it all, I've watched you surf the waves of life with strength and grace, all while being unapologetically you. You were on the journey of a lifetime. And during that journey, I've had the privilege of sharing some of the best memories of my life with you. Together, we've taken on whatever the world threw at us. We crossed the Atlantic, chasing the so-called American dream.

Yeah. And yeah, at times, it was a hard dream to crack, but we survived the hardest parts together. I needed you then, and I still do now. For me, you opened your heart and welcomed my soulmate, Georgia, as your own, and she loves you like a sister right back. And Madison, well, she's a carbon copy of you. She has your hilarious humor, your good vibes energy, and she'll always be the best company in the room,

with the exception that she definitely inherited a sprinkle of your sass too. But that was inevitable. As your brother, I couldn't be prouder of the woman you are and the life you're building. And if you won't say it because you're being. humble for the podcast, I'll say it for you. You won in life, sister. Finally, always remember what we say.

If it were easy, everyone would be doing it. Yeah, Leslie's saying that he says. Love you always. Charlie. I knew that one was going to upset me. Charlie's my absolute ride or die. Yeah. I can see it.

Yeah. Yeah. What do you love so much about him? Well, he's my little brother, but I don't know, like, obviously I loved him with my brother, but he become, I don't know, he just become, like, my biggest supporter, like, my confident, I can tell him anything. He knows everything. I could tell him everything.

He's the least judgmental person that you're ever going to know. And, like, I can just trust him, you know, like, he's just. just a solid, honest, yes. Like really, really genuine person. Having someone in your life that you can trust 100% is like really unusual.

I haven't got many people like that. Yeah, yeah, it's everything. It really is. Yeah, it's everything. It's almost like you can equate the quality of your life. Yeah. To the people you can trust, you know? I always think, and I don't know about you,

but I measure trust, like real, real trust on who I would leave my child with. Yes, yes. You know, and if I wouldn't, then I don't fully trust you. There you go. Can we talk about motherhood then? Yeah, of course. All right, because I can attest to what you just said in terms of how Maddie was always with you. Yeah.

But yet you didn't publicize her. Mm-mm. And I think that's something that the public probably doesn't fully know about you. There's probably this thought of she had Maddie tucked away somewhere while you lived this other life over here. That's what the feedback was always. Like imagine getting that twice a week being told that, your shit mom, where's your daughter? Like even up until recently I'd still get it. People would be like, but where's your kid?

She's 20, she's 20, 21 in a couple of months, but they obviously don't see her, so they don't know, they still think she's little. Right. I don't know. I told you that when I first got Towie, I was very nervous about Maddie and what this meant for her, you know,

because she's innocent, she didn't sign up to any of this. And at first I let her do a little bit of filming and it weren't working out. For example, I'm sure you know, like how you do a scene. Sometimes it'll be filmed at day tonight. Yes. And there was one particular scene which we filmed. It was on Tower.

It's super cute. But she didn't, she was totally distressed because we were telling her it was bedtime. But it weren't really bedtime. And she hates bedtime. She also hates going to bed by herself. So we're trying to get her to sit in the bed. The camera crew are in the bedroom, all the lights. And I've got this little tiny Maddie looking at me hysterical.

I don't want to go bed. I don't want to go bed. And I'm going, but we're not really going to bed. How do you explain that to a five-year-old? And I'm getting frustrated because I'm like embarrassed because she won't listen, you know, like. And I just thought, no, this ain't really going to work out. And I think we did one more scene with her and it was outside. And they kept her outside a little bit longer than I really was comfortable with.

You know, like she was getting cold. Yes. And I thought, no, this is not for her. She hasn't made this decision until she's 16 and she can make this choice. So whether she wants to be on TV, I'm not going to do this. She might have been in the background of things here and there, but that was it then. And then when she did turn 16, she did come on the show and do some filming. And then she decided she didn't like it.

And that's interesting. So then she removed herself. She told you and then. Yeah, but I think it was only because, again, of social media and the media because they were like saying things about her negatively. Yes. And I think that had she had more of a positive, welcome. because she did like it and she enjoyed the filming part of it. So it's to be continued.

We'll see. Okay. Yeah. Fair enough. How do you deal as a mother with receiving or seeing negative messaging about your daughter? Oh, that is like gloves off. Yeah. You know, being associated with ITV, I had to be very careful what I did and said on social media, even more so.

now because you can get like arrested for stuff but the gloves are off you better hope to high heavens that I'd never come face to face or find out who you are because that's like no I've been known to DM people privately oh well yeah that'll come from my child yeah yeah I can see it I can see it so so then motherhood has obviously changed you right yeah it changes everyone fatherhood has changed me what do you think is your biggest lesson so far from, you know, from being a mom, you know. So for example, for me, I could tell you, I've learned, I don't know half of what I thought I knew.

You know, every day they're teaching, you know, my boys are teaching me something. Every day is like a school day. Yeah. You know? I feel like the main thing to remember ever is that they grow up. They grow up. And one day they're going to be an adult. So just watch how you you behave and how you treat them.

Do you know what I mean? That little person is going to grow up one day. I'm not necessarily talking about Madison, talk about myself as well. Do you know what I mean? Yes. Like they grow up. So, and it's quick.

Like you take your eye off and for a minute and they're an adult. So I think that's probably all I've got to stand here. I'm not going to sit here and start giving up parenting advice. I now, because you've unpacked the story, story yeah you talked about these insecurities that you had early on yeah and it was interesting because even when you talked about going to the school in Essex yeah the first thing that you did to describe the more popular girls is you said that they had a body mm like a full figure yeah a full figure right because you said almost and and that

attracted the boys attention yeah what was how old were you when you had your first first procedure? I was, I think I was 26. 26, okay. Yeah, and I had my boobs. And that was like, the fashion back then was, well, I'd say the fashion, not the fashion, the trend, the look was like all boobs, nothing else, skinny boobs. That was like the kind of thing, like sort of, the glamour models looked at the time and

whatever. So, yeah, I really wanted to have a big chest. I was obsessed with that and I thought that was going to change all my dreams, you know? Yes. And then I did that. And then when I went on to Toway, I got offered every surgery in the world.

Like I could have had anything I wanted for free. So then I wanted to go even bigger. And as luck would have it, someone must have been looking down on me. They couldn't fit them in. Oh, really? No. They couldn't.

So you're talking about actually in the, in the procedure? I said I want a big and fake. Yeah, because that was my mentality then. And they said, we'll try. And then when I woke up, there was like, we're really sorry. They just, they wouldn't fit. So we had to give you the whatever size. And I was like, oh, I was a bit disappointed.

But I've still got the same ones in now that they actually did manage to squeeze in. But these I've wanted out for about five years. I just can't be bothered to go and have a major surgery for no reason, really. Do you know what I mean? I'd rather wait until I need to take them out. but it's been something that I really would love to take them out. I don't want them anymore. It's not a good look, you know.

And I do tend to hide them most of the toram. Like I don't really wear things like that these days. And I don't feel, I don't know, like I don't feel ashamed of them. But like when I go out, it isn't the look that I want to portray. When I see the photos, I don't think, oh, I look really great there. Do you know what I mean? I think, oh, my boobs look too big. That's how I feel now.

Okay. And it's so funny how times have been on, because I would never have dreamed that I would say that. But yeah, if it wasn't the fact that it's such a big operation, you have to get put asleep, then you're like really in pain and you have to recover. Like, I just stay in the mood for that. There's a risk to it.

Yeah, there's a risk with everything. Yes. And it is a big operation to have. So that's why I haven't gone ahead with it. But I would really like to have my old boobs back or. something a lot more natural and smaller. Look at that.

Look at that. I would imagine it stemmed from feeling insecure to what I decided I thought everyone was how I thought everyone looked good, which at the time glamour models were really quite a big deal here. Like now it would be a frowned upon thing. But back then, the likes of Katie Price and like Lucy Pinder and these women, I'll be going to the clubs in London. They were treated as celebrities.

And that was the look. you know so like I aspired to the wrong not digging them out in no way shape or form because I think look how you want to look but had I've had a little bit more guidance I don't know like obviously I wish I wouldn't have done all that but I did and that was how I wanted to look and that's what I was doing and no one could stop me all right fair fair now are you done no procedures you're not done well look if I had a magic wand these would be out I'll be honest with you. I definitely wouldn't do any crazy things.

But I am 44 years old. And I do believe that when it comes to ageing, you should probably do the things before they need to be done. Okay. Like I don't want to wait until my faces down here and then be like, oh, let me get a facelift. Like I'm going to do it this year. A facelift?

Yeah. It sounds scarier than what it is. It's like, I'm getting it down in Beverly Hills. You can't get better than that. Okay. And it's a deep plain face lift. So they basically, I won't have any scars like visible. It's not like a traditional pulling your face back.

They go in and they basically pull the muscles up. I feel, in my opinion, I feel like if I'm going to do it, I should do it before I actually really need it, you know, and then extend that. That window. Yeah. Yeah. I'm not, I'm definitely not ready for the, um, I'm not ready for the, um, I'm not ready to do it. to age. No.

I don't know if I'm going to like that, Paul. No. Men, you guys just get more like, you get rugged, which is a positive. Got, got you. Like, people like older men. Yes. Do you know what I mean? Like, there's not really people that say they like old women.

Like women, men, that it's character, it's manly, it's masculine. Like, I necessarily wouldn't, I wouldn't find a man attractive if he wanted to get a facelift. That would be an ick. No. Oh, really? Yeah, I wouldn't date somebody who said that back to me and go, yeah, I know what you mean. I'll pick one.

And I'll be like, get out. But you know, this is a double standard then. I know, double standards. I know. It's what I mean. The list is long. I told you. He needs to be about my looks.

Let's not worry about yours. Okay. All right. Final question. Out of all of the incredible conversations you've had throughout your life, which one is the most memorable? So who was it with? And what did you learn?

Oh, bloody old Paul, I think it might be what I told you earlier with that therapist, what he said to me. And he said that the love you expect from that person, you're getting it from someone else. And the same with Maddie, like the love that I think she should have all from me. She still got it, but she got it from that other person. That stuck with me forever. And then, I don't know, like probably, I mean, I've had. like a lot of conversations with like my loved ones obviously and like little things that have been said along the way.

I don't know. Like I'm not sure what to bring up and what to bring up. You know, like it's a bit like that. But yeah, I don't know because you put me on the spot. When I get home up, you'd be like, oh, I should have said that. And if I do, I text you. All right. We'll put it in the show notes.

How about that? If I do come up, I'll think about this now. It's going to really play on my mind. all the way back to Essex, I'll be thinking, what should I have said there? Obviously, I'm 44. I've had a lot of chats. You have? I was looking forward to this. I very much enjoyed it. Yeah, that too. And I'm going to end the same way I started.

Yep. Is how appreciative I am of you. You are someone of your word. You are incredibly, you're an incredible hard worker. You're ambitious. And most importantly, is you are kind. Thanks, Paul. You know, and that to me is everything.

Well, I really appreciate everything you said. And it's really nice that you see me that way, honestly, because obviously I really respect you. And, yeah, it's nice to hear that from someone like you because I can take it in and take it home with me. And then when I'm having my cup of tea later, I'll be like, oh, happy with myself right now, I'm a bit embarrassed. But later, I'll be like, oh, like, yeah, thank you.

Thanks, you know. Yes. So, yeah, that's really nice of you to say that. Thank you. And thanks for having me. It was our honor. Chloe Sims. When we started the podcast, I sent her a message and I asked her if she could come on.

And I thought she was going to say, yes! And she said, maybe, but just not right now. And what I realized in this conversation with her today is that she was going through a lot. a lot in her life. And she just wasn't ready, emotionally, psychologically, but she was definitely ready today. I could empathize and sympathize when she said, those moments that I should have been spending time with Maddie,

instead I was off in this corner, practicing my lines, if you will, so that I can win the argument. That is often me. that time that I could be doing something with the boys or doing something with Jill, I'm off in a room, I think, over-preparing for a scene that I know is going to be confrontational. And this conversation made me reflect on why. I'm really happy for her that she's found the self-worth,

and she's realized over the last year that she deserves better. We definitely need a part two. There are major chunks of her life that we didn't get into in detail. I had no idea that she didn't consider herself confident until eight years ago when I met her. You know, there are many mind-blowing moments for me in this conversation. I found a lump in my bobe with stock, I scanned me straight away. He was like, okay, the lump is nothing to worry about. But that implants rupture.

Implants can leak. You need to get them out. I was filming Taui. They're like, there's this new guy coming on Tommy Mallet, and I was like, he stalks me. I never forget. I rang the producer. I was like, I'm not filming that guy.

He's so annoying. He's so annoying. Three days in, we're together. But I had the expectation that it wasn't gonna last. Taoie had this weird hierarchy, like, if you're in a couple, you're safer. It was very cut broke back then. Like, the cast were hungry, you know?

they would want to break you up. So I was like, right, okay, fine. I'll play this game. What was the hardest moment for you? Everybody said to me, when you have this baby, it's this instant mother's connection. So when it didn't happen to me, I was ashamed. I thought, how am I not happy?

How can I not be happy about a newborn baby? That's terrible. It was a dark place, to be honest. It only got better when Tommy said, she's not right, by the way, in front of my mom, his mom and the midwife. If you could go back, What would you have told yourself?

I try to believe things do happen for a reason because at the time you're like, what reason is this? This is terrible. Even in my darkest, deepest moments, I can now say, it's made me, me now. Yes. And I'm finally getting a bit of peace. Georgia, there's one last thing we need to talk about.

Spring is the season everyone refreshes everything, except their blinds. People put it off because they think it's complicated. But at blinds.com, we've spent 30 years proving it's not. Right now you can save big during the spring Cyber Monday sale. Whether you want to DIY it or have a pro to handle everything from measure to install, we've got you. Free samples, real design experts, and zero pressure. Just help when you need it. Shop up to 50% off sitewide. Huge savings on special buys, plus a free professional measure now during the Spring Cyber Monday

sale. Rules and restrictions apply. Enjoy more ways to save at Ralph's like low prices in every aisle. And when you download the Ralph's app, you can clip and save more with digital, bonds every week. Plus, you can earn fuel points to save up to $1 per gallon at the pump. At Ralph's, you can enjoy more ways to save and more rewards every time you shop. So it's always easy to save big every day with savings and rewards. Ralph's SoCal for over 150 years. Savings may vary by state. Fuel restrictions apply. See site for details. You can't reason with the sun. Trust us. We've tried. This summer, it's time to put that angry ball of fire on mute.

Columbia's Omni-Shade technology is engineered to protect you from the sun's harsh rays that can burn and damage your skin. The sun is relentless, but so is our gear. Level up your summer at Columbia.com to spend more time outside and less time slathering on ala

lotion. You're welcome. Columbia. Engineered for whatever. Spring just slid into your DMs. Grab that boho look for that rooftop dinner, those sandals that can keep up with you, and hangs string lights to give your patio a glow up. Springs Calling.

Ross, work your magic.