We Need To Talk with Paul C. Brunson - Cody Simpson: I Became Famous at 13… I Had No Idea What It Would Cost

Episode Date: March 10, 2026

From teen pop star to elite swimmer, Cody Simpson opens up about fame, identity and what happens when success comes too early.Known for hits like Pretty Brown Eyes, Paradise and iYiYi, Cody reveals how YouTube covers led to a record deal, worldwide fame and life inside the teenage pop machine. He reflects on being discovered online during the rise of Justin Bieber, moving to Los Angeles at 13 and navigating the pressure of fame before he was old enough to understand the cost. Cody speaks candidly about the years that nearly derailed him, from rebellion, partying and substance abuse to experiencing psychosis and hitting rock bottom. He explains why leaving music and returning to elite swimming ultimately saved his life and how that decision led to representing Australia and winning medals. We also explore the relationships and moments that shaped his journey, from dating Kylie Jenner, Gigi Hadid, Emma McKeon and Miley Cyrus to the brutal discipline required to rebuild his life after fame. Now returning to music with a new record deal and a completely different mindset, Cody shares what he’s learned about fame, identity, discipline and why the most important chapter of his life may still be ahead.Cody Simpson, We Need To Talk This conversation includes discussion of addiction and mental health. We've included support charities below: MIND: https://g2ul0.app.link/gbuRaxjM3Nb Campaign Against Living Miserably (CALM): https://g2ul0.app.link/npaQKXUV4Wb (00:00) Intro (01:35) Cody Describes Growing Up on the Gold Coast, Australia (07:36) Cody’s First Experiences with Playing Music and Writing Songs (14:15) How Cody Was Discovered and Signed a Record Deal (22:28) Cody’s Early Experiences of Songwriting in LA (27:04) Paul Surprises Cody With a Photograph (27:32) What Was Life Like Back in Australia Once Cody Found Fame? (29:51) Why Does Cody Think He Was So Popular So Quickly? (31:28) How Scooter Braun Marketed Cody Compared to Justin Bieber (34:59) ‘Tween Mags’ and Cody’s Markers of Success (37:11) Cody Listens Back to a Couple of His Old Songs (42:54) Snapchat Ad (44:03) Shopify Ad (45:11) Cody Breaks Down His Romantic Relationships with Kylie Jenner, Gigi Hadid and Miley Cyrus (55:50) Cody Breaks Down His Relationship with Olympic Swimmer Emma McKeon (58:55) Cody Reflects on the Negative Effects of Fame at an Early Age (01:10:17) Paul Surprises Cody With a Letter From Someone He Loves (01:16:06) Cody’s Transition from Music to Swimming Professionally (01:24:41) Moving Back to Australia and Training for the Paris Olympics (01:31:45) Cody Reveals Plans for His New Music (01:40:31) Paul’s Takeaways Follow me here: https://www.instagram.com/needtotalk  https://www.tiktok.com/@weneedtotalkpod Follow Cody here: Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/codysimpson TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@codysimpson Sponsored by: Snapchat: Learn more at https://thekeysuk.snapchat.com  Shopify: www.shopify.co.uk/needtotalk  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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I'd ask my mom to film me in my bedroom doing covers. And then a music producer messages on MySpace, and he's like, I wanna fly you over to the US. And so I'm like, oh my god, I signed a record deal. I don't think any of us knew how intense it would be. But they took a cut of anything to do with you like this. And I think at the time, we just didn't know any different. Was there an emancipation attempt?

So you could work longer? Yeah, really. And I don't talk about this much, but oh my gosh. I'm going to Japan, Europe, Scandinavia, and there's thousands of girls at the airport. Having this amount of admiration. It's not something that you're really supposed to experience. That's when things started to slip for me. I was partying a lot.

I mean, I got to the point where I started to get really paranoid and was having psychoses. I remember showing up at my parents' house. And, please, Cody, have a surprise for you? What have I got myself into it? Before we begin, I just want to say, if you enjoy this conversation, be sure to like it. Be sure to comment about what you appreciated. And be sure to subscribe. It helps us to bring more guests that you want to see.

Thank you. Cody Simpson, we need to talk. Thank you so much for being here. Paul, thank you so much for having me. This is going to be, I can already tell, this is going to be a great conversation. Yes, me too. Me too.

I have watched several of your interviews, and I think we may go down a track that you haven't gone down. Fantastic. in your other interviews. That's why I'm here. All right, cool, cool. Thank you.

All right, can we start with Australia? Yes. All right. So this is where you grew up. Can you just paint the picture of when you were a child, what the area looked like, who did you live with, what did you experience? Yeah, so I grew up on the Gold Coast,

just south of Brisbane, north of Byron Bay. I don't know if you've... I know Brisbane. I know Brisbane? time there, yep, yeah. I was able to kind of grow up in what I really appreciate now was a really beautiful and fortunate lifestyle being able to be in nature and by the ocean and growing up doing, you know, junior lifeguarding and, you know, swimming and surfing and all that stuff.

What I'm connecting right now is so your parents were swimmers. They were. It's one of the surfing capitals of the world. It's where a lot of the particularly Australian pro surfers live, but it's also where a lot of the national team swimmers live as well, because you can train outside year-round. And it's just kind of been a breeding ground for aquatic athletes of all kinds. You know, it's really that kind of place.

Both my parents were swimmers, both swam for Australia, which was kind of born into this swimming family, the swimming community, which was the very first thing that I ever remember enjoying doing. Really? Swimming and being in the water. So it was sort of the culture, I suppose, that I was exposed to. Wow. You know, you just answered something that was a question that was lingering for me.

And that was, I always wondered because your parents were competitive swimmers, they were champions, right, that there could have been pressure for you to also become a swimmer. But it sounds like for you, it was just a love. No, yeah, fortunately not. And I think if they, and they certainly didn't try and direct me into it. Like, at that age, I didn't really know my parents were swimmers. It was just something I started to do that I gravitated towards, but was in my blood, I suppose, subconsciously. Yes, yeah.

Yeah. So, like, it was natural for you. Yes, it felt very natural. Yeah. Yeah. So when you think about your parents, right, growing up, yeah. What did you learn about love from your parents? That's a really good question.

My dad was ever the romantic, which was nice to see growing up. I had a really nice example of romance and acts of love and service and kindness from a young age. you know he would leave my mom little notes or write songs and you know like do things like that and um so i think i took and learned a lot from that it's like it's okay to show love and express love and express affection and you know interest in somebody and all that kind of stuff and so i feel really fortunate that i have you know that i had that uh unfortunately they're not together anymore this life happens but but I certainly was exposed to a very good example of what a relationship can be you know yeah absolutely yeah now you just mentioned they're not together today yeah so

did they break up when you were an adult yes okay thank unfortunately you know um meet myself and my siblings were all I think old enough to be able to process it and um um I think I'm for it not to affect this as much as it would have if we were younger and hadn't, um, hadn't, uh, been able to be a family through those years, you know, those formative years,

which is, was good that it, it happened when it did. A lot of it had to do with, and I don't talk about this much, but, but I will because he does and has since. That's the only reason I'll bring it up is it,

some of it had to do with my dad's alcoholism and, um, that sort of affecting their relationship and then and for a few years you know our relationship with him while he was kind of fighting this issue and addiction that he was he was dealing with at the time and he's in a much better place now unfortunately he's kind of been able to fight through it and stuff but but I think it was it was part to do with that yeah yeah and I even advocate for even if you have are your parents around and yeah I mean I'm privileged in that. That's, yeah.

Yeah, it's beautiful. My parents have been together for, oh my gosh, 55, some, actually they probably don't want me giving the exact number, but they've been together for a while. Yeah. And what was really bizarre for me growing up is I was the, we were the, one of the only families where I had two parents. Yeah, okay. With me.

Yeah. All my friends were growing up with basically just their mom or their auntie. Very few had male representation in their household. Yeah, that's huge. Yeah. So it was, I realized now how much of a privilege it was then. But I'll be honest with you, and I've never said this. So you're getting me to open up.

Yeah. Is I was embarrassed when I was. About having a present father? Yeah, I was. Whoa. And the reason why is because every no one else had one. Right. Which is it's, it's so wild to say that.

So something that should have been normal and healthy, felt almost abnormal because it was of the environment and your friends and everything. Absolutely. Yeah. Wow. Crazy. Yeah, it was wow. So now also as a young child, right, you are swimming. Yep.

But then you also get into music, obviously. Yeah. Right. But is anyone in your family a musician? How do you... Dad. Dad. Okay.

Yeah. So he was my first vision of music in my life was seeing him. We'd always have these family barbecues and have family friends come over and stuff. And there was a couple other family friends and people in my life who played guitar and sang and wrote songs and stuff. they'd always be like jam sessions at barbecues and that kind of thing. Okay. And my dad was part of those and he wrote songs and played a lot of country music and stuff growing up.

And so I saw that from very early and asked for a guitar when I was six. It's because I saw my dad and a couple other guys playing and I wanted to join in. But I didn't know how. So I asked for guitar lessons for my birthday or something like that. And that's kind of when it started. Was it instant? Was it one of those where the guitar was in hand and you knew there was something magical? Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Because it was a very, I was very creative young and the minute I learned how to write, how to play chords, two chords, three chords, I was writing songs.

Like I didn't sort of wait for to get, you know, to a certain level or, you know, yes, become of a certain skill. I was kind of creating with it from a very limited skill set early. And so it was very natural just to strum and sing and play and stuff like that. And I also had, you know, I had examples of it around me that I would emulate and then make my own and that kind of stuff. And it wasn't long until I was joining in on the sing-along. Oh, the sing-o-songs, yeah, yeah. And then did you become then, did you go to the forefront?

Were you then this star? Did you take the stage from your father? Yeah, by about 10 or 11, I, he'll laugh when I thought it. By about 10 or 11, I think I was better than my dad. He'll tell you this as well. And I started, you know, doing my own solos and doing my own thing. All right, yeah. So then by, say, 11, you know, are you thinking, okay, this is a career for me or this is just a nice thing to do?

My memory of this is a little blurred. I don't have, I don't know if I was, it's also so young. It's hard to know where my mind was at the time. I certainly remember wanting to perform for people. Like I would do the school talent shows or the school, like the school graduation. night I'd get up and do a song and I had a little band. I formed this little trio in middle school with another friend who played bass and then a drummer and we're all like 10 or 11 and we're awful. But like we get up at the school, you know, assemblies and do a song and the music

teacher would let us use the music room at lunchtime to play and rehearse and stuff like that. And so I remember from from then wanting to perform live and share it. And that's around the time I started, I saw that people were posting themselves on YouTube. Okay. And sharing there, like, I just discovered social media and, like, Myspace. I discovered at a Myspace page. And I saw that people were posting recordings of themselves on, like, MySpace music. and that people were doing videos on YouTube, and I thought, that's fun.

Like, you know, it just felt fresh, and I wanted to do it. Okay. So I made my mom film me and upload it. I think the first one we posted was actually a video of me singing at one of the school shows. And then it went from there in which I had asked my mom to film in my bedroom doing covers. singing and all that kind of stuff. Okay. So with you asking your mother to do that, what was the goal?

Like, was it just... I don't know. I think it was... I just... I don't know why I felt compelled to share it. I don't know why... Yeah, I don't know why I felt like I had to. I certainly felt like it was something I wanted to make a career of.

And this is going to sound silly and maybe a bit cocky or something. but I remember my grandmother reminded me of this a year or two ago was, I guess I told her when I was 10 or 11 that I was going to be famous at something. I just didn't know what yet. So I just had this desire to share. And I was like, I'm going to be really well-in-lawed. I just don't know what it is yet and all this stuff. Can I say something on that?

This is a this now you saying that I think about so we've had I don't know, I was in 10. You're 10 or 11, right? Yeah. So we've had 60 plus guests on We Need to Talk. Yeah. I think everyone, almost everyone has been a public figure. Yeah.

Some very big musicians. Yeah. Do you know that almost every single one has said that exactly statement? That at a young age, They don't know what it was, what the inspiration was, but they knew they were going to be, not just on stage, but famous. Yeah. Yeah. That's very interesting. Yeah. I mean, it's hitting me for the first time, like, thinking about the... And it sounds... I don't like to say that because it sounds superficial or, like, I don't, you know what I mean?

It doesn't sound like a... Like, not humble. It doesn't sound humble. Yeah. And it's also like... Like, what is that famous? Like, what, you know what I mean? But I think it's just a desire to share and, and I don't know. I think I was just always an entertainer since I was a kid. And I was just like, I just want to be, you know.

And I just had this intuition that I was going to be well known. So at 13 then, what happens? Because this, when I look at your life, like, this is a major inflection point, right, at that age. Yeah, this was a real shift now. So like I had been putting up these videos and songs online and then a music producer messages on MySpace. And he's like, I think you're really talented. And I'd love to cut some demos. I live in the US.

I live in New York. And I want to fly you over here. And I think we could get some, if we, you know, if these demos go well, I think we could get some meetings at labels. I've got some connections, blah, blah, blah. Well. And so I'm like, oh, my God. You know what I mean? This was kind of the, this was kind of like the, almost like the democratization of like

young stars like and, and separating from the Disney and Nickelodeon machines and stuff because that was like the, those were the sole outlets for young artists and actors and stuff to be given platforms was through these, uh, TV channels, right? Yes. It so was very hard. Jonas brothers and the, you know, Miley Cyrus and Salina, all that, you know,

and then all of a sudden you had YouTube and Justin Bieber being discovered on YouTube. And me seeing that going, oh, like, that can happen from what I'm doing. Ah, okay. I should keep putting up these videos and maybe, you know, maybe like I'll be discovered as well kind of thing. Gotcha. And you were. And then like two months later, I was like, message by this guy. And I was going, oh my god, this is like, this is it, you know. And my mom,

my mom immediately was like, it's a metaphor. We're not, we're not responding. You know, like, what? You know, maybe, like she, she wouldn't let me respond, which I now know why she was afraid it was, you know, an internet predator or something. Because I was just this 13 year old, you know, blonde, swishy hair kid, you know. And during those few months, the video started to gain more and more traction and other people started reaching out and we had Atlantic records and epic records and like a bunch of people started to be like interested in this and so we ended up my dad and I ended up flying to New York this would have been the start of 2009 and I wrote and cut four songs with this producer and then we we went and took meetings

in Manhattan. And I remember it really because it was my 13th birthday. And I was sitting in, I spent the whole day on my 13th birthday in the Warner Music Building in Manhattan, taking meeting after meeting, going from like the junior A&R to ending up in the CEO's office by the end of the day, singing for him. Wow. And that was just a trip, you know. And that's how it happened.

Like I basically went home from then, went back to school for another six months. We got like two record deal offer, major record label offers. My parents are like, what do we do? Like having to find an entertainment attorney to like make any sense of what this was. Right. And so there was a bunch of back and forth, you know, and I was just back at school while this was all happening. And then like six months later The dealer's sign and they're basically like

We'll petition your green card But you have to move to LA And if you want to do this full time And we're all kind of That was like the crossroads And you're saying we because it wasn't just you move into the US No It would be your entire family

Yeah because I had two I was just too young to be able Yeah to do it alone And so And you siblings Yeah I have I had a younger sister who's a year and a half younger than I'm and then we had a little brother who's who was seven at the time so we they collectively decided we'd all go together um that's a man

which is crazy such a big decision because also uh it's a record deal so there's no promise of no anything really no i would imagine from a money standpoint it's not significant or not a know, maybe I'm wrong. No, but I think it was, I think it was certainly more than my parents had ever seen in one go. Oh, really? Okay, so it was big. Yeah, it was big. Okay.

It was like a, it was like a major, at the time they used to do these things called 360 deals, which. Okay. Oh, great. Like, I'm kind of still in it in some ways. Like, they still own a lot of my, you know, early catalog and all that stuff. But it's like, they, like, took. cut of everything. Yes.

Could you even explain that? Because I think a lot of folks are like 360 deals. Yeah. So I'll explain it. So early, as I understand it, prior to this, when pure record sales

were much more of a lucrative thing for labels and they're a much more lucrative business for record labels, they would, you would sign to a label, an artist would sign to a label and the record label

would only take a percentage of the, record sales alone so every and everything else was was yours touring merchandise ice right whatever like everything else aside from the actual pure sale of the CD was was yours and then once that kind of once the the birth of the internet came and pirating and all that stuff like CD sales and record sales alone started to decline a lot and so labels had to find other ways to generate revenue from the artist and so as often as they could would sign you to these 360 deals in which they took a cut of

anything to do with you like this, right? Which for a lot of artists, it's like you don't really have a choice if they're going to give you this massive cash advance and if it's kind of like that or nothing, you know, a lot of people are going to take that. And I think at the time we just didn't know any different. I was like, okay, this is just how it goes. And I now understand it's not always that way. But I think for them taking like the risk on this 13-year-old kid from Australia, it was kind of like, you know, it made the most sense for them and everyone involved.

Yes. And even on the business side, something I'm curious about too is on the cash advance, do you have to then pay that back? Yeah. You have to pay it back. Yeah. So it's like they're loaning you money. I just finished paying it back. Are you serious?

Yeah. Crazy. 15 years. 15 years. Yeah Man Which is wild That's wild

Because it was not only that It was then like They then put up a ton of other money for like And I was like Oh yeah hell yeah $200 grand on music video You know This that like

Oh I get to go and recording this studio for two weeks I didn't realize it was you know Whatever amount per day to be there And I was gonna have to pay that back from you know I'm just kind of thinking Oh and they they yeah they put up for like Like, they did a lot for me. And earlier, like, they paid for my tutoring, my homeschooling.

Like, they paid for all these things that I think they actually legally had to do as a minor as my, like, petitioner. Okay. For my green card or visa or whatever. But I was under no impression that I had to pay it back, you know, but per cent, you know. So you move to L.A. Yeah. It's a new country. L.A. by itself is a country.

It's a wild place But I would imagine Because you just signed this deal Lots of money You are put to work Yeah Yeah I know I was

Yeah man I was like I was doing like 3 a.m. nights in the studio At like 14 Which Sounds Doesn't sound right now

But at that time I loved it You know Did you? Yeah Because I was like I was just like the world opened up and I was like, you know, I'd gone from going to bed at 8 o'clock to get up at 5 for, you know, swim training and stuff to all of a sudden, like living in Hollywood and been in the studio until 3 a.m. with all these, you know, adults and, you know, I'm just, I was just living my dream. What is, you know, my mars is across the hall. Oh, really?

You know what I mean? Like, it was like, really, I'm doing this, you know? Yes. And it all happened within a year of, you know, or two years of, like, putting up that first video on YouTube. But now, Cody, I would imagine, though, do you stop swimming? Well, yeah, when we first moved over, we just, I don't think any of us knew, like, how intense it would be or how busy it would be or, like, how much they'd be put me to work. we were like going to find training squads for me to be able to continue working and and I remember

going and doing on my first recording trip I remember I really wanted to go and try and meet Michael Phelps and Baltimore was like a four-hour drive from New York so we drove my dad and I like ran in a car and drove to Baltimore met with Michael Phelps's coach who was friends with my coach in Australia at the time and he organized for me to meet Michael there and I did I did like two days of swim sessions with his junior squad so it was very much still in my you know in my head and consciousness was was swimming and continuing to swim because it was just so ingrained in me wow it's funny I now I now Michael is now a friend of mine um but I have this picture of when I was he had just finished his Like, he was at the peak of his career.

He'd just come off Beijing, you know, when he won the eight golds. And I was this 12, 13-year-old kid. I made him sign like 25 swim caps. And I took them all back to Australia and gave him out to the whole squad. And everyone was just like, what is going on? Yeah. But, yeah, when we first moved to L.A., I was, like, jumping in with different groups, like, trying things, like thinking I'd be able to keep this up.

And after a couple months, it was, like, very evident that it wasn't. That it wasn't happening. And how did then? Yeah. They started putting me on the road, like. Oh, really? Really? Yeah.

Yeah. So when you reflect back, though, so you're what, now what, 14, maybe? I'm, uh, yeah, 14 now. 14. At 14 then, what was a week like for you? It changed a lot. That's the thing. Like back at home, it was so regimented.

I knew exactly what a week was. It was school and swimming training. And now it was like. always changing. I mean, we'd do these recording blocks and then I'd be out on the road and we'd do, there's a lot of travel, you know, we did like these shopping mall tours where I'd go and perform at these shopping malls. We'd do like radio station tours where we'd be going to two or three cities in a day and like a van with like the radio rep from the record label and my dad and my manager and I'd be, we'd be hitting three cities.

on the East Coast or in the Midwest, like, in a day. And we'd do that for weeks on end, staying in motels. And, like, it was, like, a lot. Yeah. Yeah. And that was, like, 14, 15 was, like, doing that. Was, nonstop all year. And your dad is with you.

He's the main family. My dad, yeah. When we did, we did, when we toured, the whole family would come, like, when we had the bus and everything. But, like, for these, like, smaller, these leaner trips, like, and promo tours and stuff like that, it'd be my dad. But I'd always have mom or dad with me. Okay.

Always. Thank God. Yes. Yes. And then you had a, did you have a teacher with you too? And a tutor, yeah. And a tutor. Yeah.

Okay. Yep. This was homeschooled on the road. Like, man, I'd be in the back of the tour bus, like doing my math homework. Really? about to go out and perform in this shopping mall for thousands of screaming girls. It was wild. Very wild.

What happens to doing this? I got, you know what I mean? They're banging on the side of the thing and I'm trying to do long division, you know? I swear to God it was literally like that. Ridiculous. All right. I've got to show you this. There's so many things I have to show you.

Man, yeah. But I want to show you this. Okay. How old are you? And do you remember this one? What's happening there in that photo? I think I was 13. I think I'd just gotten signed.

This is like right around the time we were moving to the U.S. Ah, okay. We're about to move to the U.S. And this was crazy that I remember this. I think this was a photo shoot for like an Australian newspaper or magazine that was like doing a story on it. About you going to the end? Yeah.

Okay. So then as you're gaining popularity in the States, what's happening back home in Australia? More kids wanted to be my friend. All of a sudden, I'm really popular at school. I remember doing this like farewell thing when I was leaving, when I was like when we were finally moving for good. And like kids were running after my car and my like little girlfriend that I had to break up with at the time was like crying. running after the car as we were driving out of the school parking lot like one of my first music videos i came back and i probably just finished paying this back too but the want to shut down like my

local water park for me to shoot the music video so like they flipped it out for the day huge water like one of the bigger water parks in australia like it was like 30 minutes from my house or something and um so i had all my friends and school friends and family friends come and be a in this music video. And so basically I got to bring like 20 kids to this theme park or water park for the day. And we got to just ride the rides and stuff like that. Yes. And they just filmed it.

And that was like one of my music videos or something. But I think my friends were just like, what is going on. Yeah. Six months ago, he's at school now. Like he's able to shut down this like water park. Yes. And I know you're probably going to be humble on this one. But it wasn't just you couldn't go out in.

the states or an Australia. It was a global thing. It was global. It was, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. It was a global thing, which is rare. Like I didn't realize then how the power of the internet in that way of going, oh, well, I can, I'm going to, to Japan. And there's thousands of girls at the airport waiting for us to land or to Europe and, you know, to Scandinavia.

and there's, you know, I'm doing, so just how global, you know, South America, like, it was not just where I was from or the U.S., it was certainly widespread. What was it? Because you also, there were a lot of people trying to compete, trying to be in that position. But, yeah, you were really resonating. So what do you think it was? It's a really good question. I don't know.

It was like a right place, right time thing in a way, you know, right after Beaver and. and that whole insane thing in which, like, I guess I met him really early on and we became friends and I signed with Scooter and like I was in that whole world. So part of it was, I guess, just having the, and the label just having the ability to market it the way they did. They did, yeah. And do you really attribute it to like just. Beber as the like the catalyst for this new wave. I don't think I would have I don't think I would have achieved what I did or or or for it to have worked the way it did without him. Um, it's hard to say, honestly, I don't know, because there were other young, you know, there were other young artists

that were that were really popular a couple years, you know, there were the Jonas brothers and there were these other people, but that was, that was all, you know, that was all. part of the Disney thing. So it's hard to say. I just know that he came before me on YouTube and it worked. And then so I think, I don't know if labels would have taken a shot on me if they hadn't seen that that had worked. Right. You know what I mean? Okay. You just mentioned Scooter Braun as well. Yeah. What do you think his magic was, especially at that time? Because it did seem like he was a goal, like he had the mightest touch for sure. I don't know. I think he was just, and he still is, he's just extremely, he's extremely

clever and how he, and creative and how he markets things. I think he's really quick to act. Like if he believes in something, he's just like, I think successful people in general just close the gap between like idea and execution. I think he just like saw something that he thought, could could work and he's just very quick to to act on it and he's a he's a he's a he's a you know people person and that he connects he knows how to connect people and i think it was he's just savvy in that way how he went about sort of marketing me alongside the label like not wanting to be the same thing as as justin and how i sort of was different from that you know because he had Justin, it was wanting it to be and feel different.

You know, I think I was, I think they really, like, leaned into the whole, like, Australian, like, beach, you know, thing. I was, like, very much a young, like, surfy kid with a guitar and, you know, you know. On that kind of stuff, you know what I mean. I have another photo. And that may have been part of what resonated with people from different cultures and stuff that, you know, didn't have that in their life. and so I was kind of this like, you know, I made this like kind of music that was some kind of escape to Australia or, you know, just like a lifestyle thing.

You know, maybe that's part of it. I'm still trying to understand it. I don't know. You know what? I could see that. That's interesting. I'm just thinking for a girl in Japan who, like, I don't know, you know what I mean, to kind of go, this is an insight into a different kind of lifestyle and vibe that I wasn't exposed to. It's hilarious.

Even on that, though... There was so many of these ones. That's the pose. Yeah. But even before we get into that photo, is you just saying this, is so I'm now connecting this. So was it the first single with Flo Rida?

Yeah, yeah. You're at a beach. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Which we shot that. We actually shot part of that in Australia and part of that in L.A., but yeah, it was very much like...

at a beach and they'd sell like there was there would the merch was they were selling like surfboard necklaces with like my name on it and it was like very that was very much part of the the branding when I was a kid I see and and so the music videos I think that that was just like it I think it was just an obvious it was it was not manufactured that's actually the life I lived growing up and who I was you know I think they just like saw that as a point of difference or a a way to kind of differentiate me from other things. Yeah. And it was like lent into.

I see it. You know what I mean? I see it. One of my early albums, I have the, my first album cover, I'm on the beach with the guitar behind my back, you know, and the waves coming over me, the second one, I'm holding a surfboard. Like, it was very, it was very, it was very much that.

Yeah. What's happening in that photo? I'm no idea. You're posing. though. I'm posing. I'm learning how to smize is what I'm doing. You know? Doing the...

That's so funny. For these... These are like those the old... These don't exist anymore like the J-14s and the you know, pop star mags and all that stuff, you know? Nope. But that was the key. I would have been... The tween mags. So, yeah, like that was, I think when I started, like, these were massive things, these tween mags.

you know so every time you go anywhere you know because they used to put the posters in them and stuff and people would put them on their walls that's right so they usually put like four or five faces on the cover in like like a circle and so as like a young child singer or actor or something like the goal was kind of like to become one of the like five faces on the cover of this of these magazines okay like you'd kind of made it if you were like one of these like j14 floating on heads on these, you know. And so I think once I started to get my face on those things, I was like, really doing something here. I made it. It was just hilarious. That that was, that was my mark of success was becoming one of these like floating heads on these like pop star magazines. Oh my gosh. Yeah.

And then, you know, you'd do the meet and greets or the CD signings and the other girls who bring the the magazines and the posters for you to sign the cover and all that stuff but yeah i knew i made it when i was when i was a yeah the j14 cover boy all right fair well i'm gonna take this i'm i'm gonna trade so funny man i have another surprise for you okay this one is gonna be wild okay so you're ready yeah yeah yeah yeah ready for this lady all right so first is do you know what this is oh absolutely i have one of these oh yeah All right, what is that? What is that?

I used to listen to my first singles on these. I poured something. I put mini? Yeah, I think that was like... I put mini? No, the mini was like the rectangular one. Yeah. I have this for you as well.

Oh, wow. All right. Okay. And so I want you to plug that in. Uh-huh. And I want you to listen to what is loaded on this. Oh, my God. Okay.

Okay. Now, sit back, listen. Tell us what it is. Just tell me what's your reflection on that. Okay. Let's go the first album, Paradise. Paradise, okay. Let's see.

Beach sounds straight away. See? Oh my gosh. So you're listening to what's on? It's called Paradise. It's a first song on my first... full-length album, All right. Voices higher.

It's so funny, like, for years, until probably last year, that's harmonies. So, I'm just going to pause it for a second. Okay. For years, I think everyone has their own version of this, but I was like, I would cringe at early stuff of mine or hearing my voice. voice, my younger voice or hearing a song. And I was almost like embarrassed or wanted to run away from it and I think I went through this period of extreme rebellion from my early career. And now and last year was I think the first year I really started to feel and I think it's maybe just because I'm old enough and

not far enough removed from it, but have enough perspective to understand how special it was. Yes. And to not, I'm not in the least bit, I'm finally in a place in my life where I'm not in the least bit embarrassed by it. I'm like really proud of it. I'm going, how was I 15, like, vocal, like, I learned really quickly how to, like, vocal produce myself and arrange harmonies and do all these things that, like, are skills I am using now, like working on my new album, but I learnt them so young and I'm realizing

why they're second nature to me now. It's because like I was in there till 3 a.m. every night at 14, do it like learning from the best, you know, in the world. Yes. And I'm hearing and I hear the stuff now and I go, that's really awesome how I was doing that at that age. I love that reflection, you know, and being able to go into a studio and know exactly how to, how to to get something to sound a certain way. Okay. Especially pop music and I have so much respect for certain artists. And Beba was really good at this and I would sit and watch him do it and learn from him

and certain artists that knew how to and you learn how to arrange vocals and pan them and do the harmonies in a way that it feel effective for. and the best recording artists are really good at that. I'd tell you what, let's do another song. I'm going to go, this is called Good As It Gets. This is like, I rediscovered this a couple months ago, actually. This was me, like, in my kind of R&B bag a little bit. I can tell by the nod, yeah.

I was like 14 in this. This song was produced by a guy named Dangerhands, who did a lot of the future sex love sounds album with Timberland for Timberlake. Okay. And he gave me this song. And you can tell I'm really working hard to like do it justice. I'm going to pause it out. That's really cool. I appreciate the nostalgia there. That's awesome.

Yeah. Parents of teenagers, are you listening? You know I've got two sons, Liam and Kingston. They're 12 and 15 and their world moves fast, a lot faster than it was. when I was their age. The pressures they face are different, and they're constant, and I spend a lot of time thinking about how I can stay connected to them. What questions should I be asking? What conversations am I not creating space for? One of the topics I keep coming back to often is online safety, because it's a huge topic and a slightly daunting one. So when my show

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with Priceline. Download the Priceline app or visitpriceline.com. Actual prices may vary, limited time offer. You know, one piece of your life that I just want to touch on, your relationships. Right. But I want to go through some of these relationships, but mainly look at where you were in your career. Sure. And what was the lesson that you pulled from that relationship? Yeah, yeah, totally. So would you say first, was first at 14 you have now just moved to L.A. Mm-hmm. Was your first girlfriend, Kylie Jenner?

Yeah. Help me understand. Yeah, yeah. You've just moved to L.A. How do you and Kylie Jenner enter a relationship? The Twilight 3 premiere. As I remember it, yeah. That's really funny.

um Kylie Kylie and I met I was I was probably 15 okay she may have been 14 or 15 she's a tiny bit younger than I am but I think her and Kendall

were like interviewing people on the red they'd like just started doing stuff you know because their sisters were super successful and they'd like just start they just started doing stuff in the public eye with the they had the show going on and they were they'd started to be on the show and all that stuff like that.

And they were, I think, interviewing people on the Twilight premiere, red carpet or something. And I went to, I went, I took my sister or something to the, to the premiere because she loved Twilight or, I think. I think I asked her for a number there or something. Like, we exchanged numbers and we started talking. And, I don't know, it was young, yeah, I took it to the movies or something. And we, yeah, we probably dated for about a year. And I think just bonded through being in these unique situations.

So it was nice. It was like, I think just nice to relate to somebody at that age in that world. Especially after you just arrived. Yeah, exactly. It's probably a safe. As you said, I'm like in high school. What am I supposed to, you know, I don't have a school to, you know, with girls to, you know, Like my school was like Hollywood in a way, you know, because I was homeschooled.

So I was like the only way I could meet people was literally at the Twilight premiere or at one of my shows. But like that's a weird place to try it, you know. Yes. So there are very few places in which I could socially be a kid, you know, be a young dude. Yes. Trying to date, you know, trying to kiss girls. You know what I mean? Yeah, you were limited.

Really limited. Really limited. Yeah. It's interesting because I think a lot of people would say, no, like you had, you could do, you can do and go anywhere. Right. But you were limited. Yeah.

In what you could do and where you could go. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. So then next, is this next girlfriend is GGID? That's your next, your next girlfriend. Yeah. Okay.

So how does that happen? My God. I'm gonna be giving you all the two here. I've never broke it down like this before. I might as well, though. I was at the mall with my friend at the time. I would have been, I would have just turned 16 or something. She had just done her first billboard for gas.

Ah, okay. She was a couple years older than I was, you know. She was, I think she was, I think she's maybe two, two or three years older than I am. So she was maybe 18. I was 16. I was, you know, I thought she was like the hot, older girl, you know. But we were just walking through the shopping center. I asked my buddy was like, who's that?

And he goes, oh, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, you know, do you know jizzy? She goes, yeah, kind of, I can give you, you know, I could, like, give you a number if you want. Like, okay. I'll take it. I'll take it. So this is going to sound so stupid, but I called called her. Did you? And I said, hey, it's Cody.

I'm a musician. Like, I'm doing this music video. I was just calling to ask if you want to be in it. Like, there was no music video. Oh, God. No plans for videos of Alvin'Chart. I got this. I got one more.

video I'm shooting from like my this was like right around I was doing my second album I was like shooting this video I'd love love it trying to be in this video I'm pretty sure I like pitched her this whole concept that didn't exist and and she goes yeah okay yeah sure and I think that just broke the ice like opened up you know and so I started like texting her and I'm like I don't think the video is going to be happening more but like do you want to go Do you want to catch up? Do you want to go out for, oh no. Do you want to go out for food or whatever?

And I just got in my first car and I'm feeling like the man, you know. Of course, of course. And I couldn't even legally drive by myself at the time. But I think I went and picked her up and I was like working and then I went and picked her up and we hung out. Yeah, it was kind of like she was my first love, man. She was, you know. Was she? Yeah, absolutely.

we're together for I don't know for about two years but but um we started hanging out and a couple weeks later she like came on tour with me and we um we just again it was a similar thing in that we bonded through her family was

um she came from a very very interesting family her stepped out at the time was David Foster incredible music producer yes um who I don't think I appreciated enough than having that, you know, that relationship with him. Yeah. Oh, wow, so he gave you advice. Yeah, like he came to the studio and was like, you know, he's really big in, and, you know,

he discovered Michael Bublay, you know, like he's really big in jazz and all that stuff, which I love now. Like, I'm a crooner at heart. Like, I love that stuff, the standards and everything. So he came at the studio once and was like, if you had balls, you put horns on this. and at the time I was so like you know not and now I'm like yeah

the five balls I would have put on with that you know it's a beautiful story you know and it seems like that at that time you two needed each other yeah yeah yeah absolutely yeah it was fine like the universe brings people together

when they're supposed to be together and and often there's that whole thing of the reason season lifetime yeah saying and yes it was certainly it was certainly we were supposed to be together when we were and learnt things from each other

that were obviously necessary to learn at that time for both of us at that age, you know. Was Miley Cyrus next? Yeah, it was about four years later. Okay. Yeah. So it was, you were, what, 22 then?

22 into 23. Yeah. Okay, so still you're L.A. Mm-hmm. this is what were we like 2020 so we're COVID it was yeah we did all COVID lockdown and everything together okay but we met we met we met um back when I was we became friends when I was like 18 okay um when she we used to go and party together and hang out and she was like we we just always had a lot in common and um she did like one of my album

artworks for my song. Oh, wow. Yeah, like, which song? Which one? It was called Flower. So it was like when I, I think she, she, we connected, um, and bonded through kind of, in a way, rebelling from like being in that teen pop stardom thing. And, you know, she's obviously, like, rebelled very publicly from that over the years and,

and went through certain things. And I think when I started to go through that, we became. she came into my life and helped me navigate it in some ways and and when I went independent and started doing a more singer-songwriter thing and you know I was a downright hippie for a couple of years and she was just like my friend during that period and and then we lost touch for a few years and then when we're a little bit older and I guess more mature we we we started talking again and at that time it turned into something else and and again it's one of those things it was it was very much you know we're very much meant to be together at that time for we were both sober and

in very different place to what you know we were when we were friends back in the day yeah we were like kind of exploring what the hell we'd just been through good thing you know yeah she she'll always be um I always be grateful for that. Yeah. I can see it. Yeah. I can see that you are. You move back to Australia.

And from my research, right, I see that at a certain point you started dating Emma McKeon. Yeah. Right. And what I noticed about Emma distinctly is that she is a, she's Australia's most successful athlete in Olympic history. right with 14 metals including six golds yeah right and and end part of me thinks okay you're now dedicating yourself to swimming so who of course are you going to be around swimmer yeah yeah so is that how you must have met her that way yeah so so we met when I joined she she was in the the training group that I joined when we went back so so she was training under the coach that I

that I went and trained with and so we met we met at the pool. Makes sense. And training under the same coach. And we immediately became friends. And there's only probably a group of about nine or ten of us that were training with this coach. So it was a pretty small group. And it was one of those things where we connected through what we were doing and as people.

It was just one of those things where. we, I have to put a lot of thought into whether that's a bridge you want to cross with somebody that you know you're going to be spending the next four years with every day regardless of, you know, and it's also that environment is so intense that it's adding a romantic layer to it is something you really need to think about. Yes. But I think just after a certain amount of time it was inevitable and something that we ended up being a really beautiful thing for us to do together and moving in together and living that lifestyle together and supporting each other. And it's a lifestyle that is hard to understand.

And I feel it would be difficult to be with somebody that is doing it if you're not also doing it just to understand what it takes. And I think having, having Emma, in my life to not only support me through my goals and vice versa for me to support her through her goals and towards the end of her career. We were able to be that for each other and I think only lift each other up. Yes. Yes. Through that.

So, yeah. You know what a special person. Yeah. I can see that. You know what I find interesting about your relationship. is that you have taken something from the relationship that has helped you to become a better human being. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know?

Because I think that a lot of people reflect back on their relationships with disdain or, oh, my God, I can't believe. Like, right, but you, yeah, I've yet to, I've yet to look back on anything with, there's obviously things, you know, like, things don't end the way you want, you know, like. But ultimately, I look back on everything positively. A quick content warning that my conversation includes mentions of addiction. So please watch with care. There's one stat that I want to throw out here and I want to get your opinion on. Is that, so this is a 2019 study. It found that 80% of 18 to 25-year-old musicians said they had a negative mental health issue with anxiety

and depression being the most common. Right. So now there is not one person I've ever talked to who has experienced extreme fame at a young age and there's not been a negative consequence to it. Yeah, yeah. It's, um, I absolutely went through my, my valley, you know, after the, the hot, you know, the mountains. Yes. There was this doctor, this neurologist or neuroscientist.

I don't want to title him incorrectly, but I met him through Miley when we were together because she would do these brain scans on her brain that would kind of show all kinds of activity. and I met with him a couple times into these brain scans and it would show certain, you know, where different parts of your brain are activated at different times. And there was sometimes an issue with frontal lobe activity and dopamine or something because of, I guess, as he would explain it, he did a lot of research on fame on the brain,

worked with like B, but he worked all these other guys, especially at a young age, pre your brain being fully developed, your frontal lobe being fully developed as an adult. And having that amount of dopamine, it's like dopamine flooding as a child. Fame is, fame is a form of dopamine flooding in a way, and going up on stage and having this, this amount of admiration. It's not a natural, right. It's not something that you're really, supposed to experience, particularly as a teenager. And so he'd do a lot of work on how to kind of reset that and kind of come back to this healthy baseline because it's so easy to kind of get caught in this immense, you know,

immense high and immense low cycle, especially as somebody who as a young person has experienced these really, really immense highs. it's hard for your brain to then kind of re-regulate to a place in which like normal life is enough. Yes. And I think that's something that a lot of people who have experienced that kind of fame, young have struggled with. And that's why you see a lot of people go on and fall into addiction and substance abuse and stuff, just to like, to try and maintain that what they felt. That dopamine hit.

Yeah. Like what you felt out on stage doing that thing to then come back and like normal life is not enough. No. You know, it's just going to sound crazy. But I moved out around 16, 17. I bought my own place. And I moved in. I ended up moving in with my like, I had a younger day-to-day manager to

a manager at the time who was also my best friend and we spent every day together work or not. And he moved in with me because I bought a place here and I bought a place in West Hollywood when I was 17. And I, that's when things started to slip for me. And I think it's because I rebelled a little bit against my family and my parents as, which is, I think, a natural thing to do at that age. It's not an uncommon thing for a teenager to want, their own space and then to have to go and kind of learn your own lessons in a way. Sure. But that was also around the time that I started to rebel from, 17, 18 was around the time I

started to rebel from what I'd built. And I started partying and kind of fell into the trappings of kind of having access to like whatever I wanted at an age that was far too young to be, you know, allowed that, I suppose, you know. Like you can get in anywhere and you can get anything and people just say yes kind of thing. It was like that amount of autonomy is unhealthy, I think, at that age. Yes. Because power has effects on the brain as well in that way, in the same way that fame does.

It's sort of coupled. Yes. And so too much of that too early is also easy to abuse. So I felt like I was at the mercy of that a little bit. Yes. Was there an emancipation attempt? Yeah, yeah. Early, which I didn't, no, no, this was like.

Oh, this was before. At the start almost. Oh, really? Like I, yeah, when I was still, when I was really early on, like a very, a very early management company, a pre-scooter and everything. that were trying to, I think, tried to claim my parents were unfit parents and to legally emancipate me so I could work. Because there were limits on the amount of hours I could, or days I could work and my schooling.

And I think under 18, you're considered a minor in the, I'm not sure exactly what the entertainment industry laws are, but they were trying to finesse those, you know. Just really so you could work longer. Yeah, really. Yeah, yeah, more money, more whatever. Geez. So I was fortunately sheltered from all that at that age. My parents didn't tell me what was going on,

but they had days in legal offices about it and all that stuff, and I had no idea. It was shielded from it. So look at that. They didn't tell me until I was probably 19 or 20. So they were really protecting you, but then by 16, you stepped out yourself. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And now you had to... So for a couple of years there, I think my mom, like, I just... It was a couple of years there where my mom had to put Google that's on her phone because it's the only way she knew where I was. Really? Because I just wouldn't, I was just rebelling in every sense of the word and I wouldn't talk to her. And not because she ever did anything wrong.

I think it was just my way of going to find who I was outside of, everything I'd been through and feeling like my identity and my life and my everything was had been imposed on me which is like a really which is ironic because I built it for myself and and wanted to build it for myself and um in in that rebellion if you will um i've heard you describe 17 to 20 as messy years yeah yeah absolutely the messiest absolutely Absolutely. When you think about the darkest period for you, so we can understand what you were going through, what was that? What was happening? To preface it, it wasn't all bad because I was doing a lot of musical and creative soul searching at the time. I was discovering all this music I didn't know. I was actually practicing a lot of guitar. Like I was, it was directed in some ways. It was just that it was all very angsty. And I, was partying a lot and I was doing drugs and I was treating people poorly and it wasn't who I was.

It was like this layer on top of who I really was that was just me trying to, me trying to find myself, you know, like I just, I, I, I'd realize that I've felt trapped in what I'd built and I just felt like I needed to clean the slate or something, you know. I felt a lot of it was a creative and musical angst. I felt misunderstood musically because I felt like I was growing a lot as an artist and I was trapped in by being a teen pop star and so there was a lot of that. So I was like, I'm going to do everything I can so that people don't think of me as that anymore. And, you know, there's like a lot of that stuff. And I was like if I have to go and party and do drugs and whatever to like, like that was almost me going, I'm not.

The surfer guy. Yeah, you know what I mean? Yeah. I could have very easily gotten worse had I not, had my parents kind of not stepped in and helped me out. How did your parents know you had slept? They knew that I was partying a lot and I was I was Abusing, I was drinking too much and I was doing drugs and all that stuff I think I think I got to the point where it started to affect my

My brain chemistry like I was really I started to get really paranoid and Was having some psychoses and things like that like I thought I was I was I don't know I'd Substance Abuse my way into just a detachment from reality in some sense. And I remember showing up at their house and just breaking down into tears and told them that I had a problem. I wasn't an addict, but I was, I needed to change whatever I was doing.

You know, it wasn't working. And thank God. they just were ready to take me in and help me, you know. Yeah. Now, how did you know? Because I, you know, when I do, I've talked to a lot of addicts. Right. And there's typically.

And I can't claim to be one. I'm not. I never was. It was just this period of time where I took it way too far. Way too far. But, but those, well, the addicts that I've talked to, there's typically an inflection point where something happens where they realize, okay, this path is to my demise. Mm-hmm.

I need to get on a new path. but what was for you the inflection point that allowed you to then go to your parents for help? I think I just had like a really big night and I was freaking out and I was coming down and realizing that I didn't want to live in this cycle anymore and had just slipped from too far from who I was and the values that I, you know, claimed to hold deer and went to them and just broke down, you know. My nervous system and my psychology and everything was suffering a lot and I just realized I needed to and wanted to, you know, clean up and get back on track and actually keep working towards the things I said I wanted.

And, you know, that when you're in that, like, that kind of state, the partying and the highs from that can be so seductive, like they become more important than... Yes. The real thing? Yes. Yes. I tell you what, your parents, you know?

They seem to be the through-line superheroes for you. Yeah, yeah. Truly. In your story. And even my dad had started going through what he was going through was still there to like to hear me out and help me in the way that he could, even though he was going through his own issues.

Yes. Which I don't think helped mine, you know, at the time. But they were both amazing. And my mom in particular was just like always ready to pick up the phone. I could not talk to her for months, and I'd call, she'd answer immediately, you know. She's just, she's been the most consistent presence in my life to this day. She's never once, and she's been through her own, like, her own things and battles, and she's never once not been there.

which has been so awesome. Yes. You know. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Cody, have a surprise for you. Okay.

I want you to read that for us. Oh, okay. I don't know what to expect here. This is, what have I got myself into? Dear Cody, watching you grow into a man who leads with such discipline, creativity and kindness has been one of the greatest joys of my life. You've always followed your heart, even when it has asked a lot of you

through many challenging transitions in your life. You've always had the courage to work hard, to start again, to stay true to who you are, whether in the pool, through your music or on the stage. Even more breathtaking to me is that I've seen you learn who you are through effort, insane courage and the many moments you trusted yourself even when the path wasn't clear. Hey. I admire your integrity, the way you commit fully, stay curious, push boundaries and move through the world with humility and a big heart. You never chased applause for its own stake, instead you've chased growth, truth and meaning

for your own personal goals. You are one of the proudest achievements in my life and you know you have already won in my eyes. I love you beyond words. It's from mama. That's from your mom. That's nice. It's beautiful, man. Yeah.

Yeah. Thank you for organizing that. That's really sweet. I tell you what, she truly, she is your angel. Yeah. Yeah, she is, yeah. I'll tell you what I'll do is I will hold on to that thank you and then I will give back to you yeah thank you so you can have that's awesome

yeah man I'm funny to think that she I'm older than I'm now like three years older than she was when she had me you know and for me still feeling like I'm not ready to have a child or to put someone to because I I I've always I don't want to have a kid until I feel truly ready to completely put somebody before myself or like I feel like I'm in a place in my life where I can because once I have a kid I want my entire you know that's that's it right yes and to think that she was 26 I just turned 29 this week and to think she was 26 when she had me and that I've I guess that she has put me before her own needs and everything since then is really emotional to think about.

Yeah. And I think that, like that, I guess to think that I still am that for her, along with my other siblings. It's a lot. Yeah. It's love. Yeah. Yeah, it is.

It's love. Absolutely. It's love. All right. If you've made it this far, I know you're loving the conversation. So please do me one small favor. Hit that bell icon, join our community. You know, when you were talking about going to your parents and saying,

hey, I've hit rock bottom here. Obviously, they heard you. Yeah. Was that the road to you then temporarily leaving music? And it was. Yeah. Okay. Swimming is a really disciplinary sport in that it's extremely, extremely growing.

and it'll, it's like I may be biased having been one myself, but there are very few sports that require as much of you as often as swimming. There may be gymnastics or it's a sport that is very unforgiving. You get a week or two a year off the rest of the time your whole life is based around. training is absolutely as hard as as as humanly possible and then sleeping and eating and then doing it again like it's there's not one decision in your life can be not about that yes it's a very but but that's something that i love discipline and i love this like odd freedom that it gives you to like explore what you're capable of and like that was something that was missing in my life

as a creative that like that part of my brain was not getting tickled right like so it's something that kept no tugging at me that I needed to explore and go and live again for a while. But was the idea to live again in swimming for a while, or do you have a specific objective? My objective was to make the Australian swim team to represent my country in the sport, like at the highest level. There's knowing me, I just, I wasn't going to go and do it half-ass. Yeah, that's much like I'm going to go to get to the top of the sport.

You know. There must be some type of counter push against, well, you're a pop star now. Oh, yeah. Like, you can't. What are you doing? I think that's why it took me so long to really believe it was something that, one, I had the time and bandwidth for, but two, that I, that was even possible. Because swimming is one of those sports where there's never really been anybody that didn't train through their teens and early 20s, that went on to

make a national you know to compete internationally or to be to get to that level like it's people you just don't do it how many years off did you take so from swimming you said it stopped swimming 10 years so you're off for a decade stop swimming at 13 got back in the water at 23

yeah okay yeah with the objective make the Australian swim team represent my country yeah Now, how? How did you get to that? Because you just said that it's unheard of for someone to not swim in their late teens and then achieve anything consequential, right? Right. But how? So, yeah, I remember when I started, it was around, it was 2019, I was at a real crossroads.

And I was preparing a new project. I had actually finished. was close to finishing this album. It was, I guess, a bit of a pop comeback kind of album. You know, it was like very much like for the purpose of really coming back into the music scene in a, you know, a big way or whatever. And I'd shot a music video. I, the album was getting mixed. Like it was, I was going to sign this deal, was talking this label. And then on the other hand, I'd started jumping in, I'd started jumping in the water again. I just, I had this thought of, I can't fail because if I go all in and it doesn't work, at least I can say I'd try, I did it, and the monkeys off my back. Yes. You know what I mean? Yes. Because it was getting

heavier and heavier and I was like, if I don't do this, I'm going to regret it forever, kind of thing. But it required blowing my life up and, you know, absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. sacrificing things and having to let people go and, you know, I had managers, you know, I had all these things that I just wouldn't have been able to keep or maintain. I knew I would have to leave L.A. where I'd grown up. I knew it'd have to go back to Australia, you know. And I set, I set 2024 as kind of the end goal. So it was like a limited, I'm giving myself this much time. Okay. To see how much I can get out of myself. and I'm giving everything else up.

And I could kind of wrap my head around that. It was like, this is a four-year window. I can always come back to this, but I'm allowing myself this time, and I'm going to do nothing else but that. And if I get to the end of that period and I've gotten absolutely nothing out of it, which I doubt, you know,

I will if I give it what I say I'm going to give it, then it's just four years. Who cares? You know, yes. I'll be 27. And at the end of it, I'll be a baby still. It doesn't matter. So I made a decision.

I was like, I'm going to go all in. And then COVID happened. The world shuts down. Of course. Of course. But I adapted. I had to adapt. I started doing like these home workouts and just, I just started getting healthy and

and trying to prepare. my body as well as I could for when the world opened up again and I could start to walk the path. So I got connected with a coach who was a former Australian Olympian and I very quickly expressed to him that I wasn't kidding and that I wanted to come back to swimming and he took me seriously. I think he started sending me sessions and I had this little community center pool down the road that I would jump the fence to go and swim in. So you were still in L.A.? Yeah, I was in L.A. Yeah, I was in the valley.

And there was this pool that was closed, but I'd go and hop the fence and swim in it. Oh, wow. And do these sessions that he was riding me. He's like, okay, do these for a month and get some aerobic fitness under your belt before I come back out there and we'll start. So you would sneak into this pool to swim? Dude, it was, and we ended up doing that for the first, like, see, months of like during lockdown so we would we ended up jumping fences to

pools that we knew like would be open for us to you know we got kicked out a few times by security when they found us in their training it was like rocky like it was a very much I want to make a movie about it so cinematic early you know 5 a.m. mornings jumping the fence to this pool my coach was was really good at sort of like putting me in situations I wasn't ready for so that I could. It's like that theory of, you know, you got to jump in the deep end and find your feet. And that's precisely how you became successful as a pop art. Yeah, yeah.

So I thought, well, okay, I'm just going to say yes to everything. And he put me in races I wasn't ready for too soon. And I'd crumble and fail and I'd go home and, you know, I punched a couple walls. out of just sheer frustration and just angst towards the fact that I wanted this thing so badly but felt like maybe my window was closed or I didn't have enough time to achieve it or I'd taken too long off or, you know, all these thoughts going through my head. I ended up moving back to Australia early 2021 and joined a coach and group there. Okay.

And, um, and decided to, I guess, spend the next three years training with them and living back in my hometown, which was kind of a nice thing. Yeah. Full circle moment. Which I knew eventually would have to happen because it wasn't living, living in Los Angeles and doing it was just not, it was not as conducive to true, I guess, athletic lifestyle. It was just, LA is a really weird, distracting. place at times for that kind of thing. I ended up going to that Olympic trials and making the final. Like I made top eight in the country after a year or less of having come back to training. And I think everyone was just kind of blown away, including myself. It was like, this is crazy, you know, to have come from obscurity. I'm now top eight in the country. And, you know, it's one of the better swimming nations in the world. So just doing that was like a quite a achievement in that amount of time. Do you believe at that point you can you can now make at the Olympic team?

Then at that time after that after 2021 I thought I've got what it takes if I've come this far this quicker I can do something here. Okay. How is it then that so that's 2021 and so that yeah yeah. The Olympics was 2024. Yeah. Okay, which is Paris Olympics. Yeah. 2024. So you come close.

So where was the, how did you not make the team? So, yeah, so 2021 came around. Then the following year was, the following year was Comole Games. Okay. Okay. And so every year they have. have every year is a new, they do a trials every year for whatever that, that major meat of that year is. Okay. And so it essentially resets every year. So you have to essentially be ready

to go on that day, you know, at your qualifying thing. You have the heats and the semifinals and the finals and the finals and you have to swim your race and qualify through each thing. And then for the Australian national team, they basically take two guys per event. Two guys per event. Over the next 12 months, I end up improving, like, rapidly. And I end up making the Commonwealth Games for Australia. So that was my first Australian team. I end up going on the Commonwealth Games. And for people that are not, I guess, in the Commonwealth, for Commonwealth countries, it's kind of like the Olympics but it's like one below the it's kind of the other team anyone in swimming hopes to make okay you know aside from the Olympics so it was like a huge thing for me to do that and end up going

and making the final at com games and um and we won a couple we won golden silver I was in the men's relay teams and we won one and we had a go I walked over the golden silver there which was cool look at that um look at so that was like a whole to be on that team and to be at that level after two years was something I could have only dreamed of as a kid. Absolutely. And not just after two years of training, but then in 10 years old previously. Yeah. Yeah.

So it was kind of, it was incredible. It was honestly, it made, it was almost like it made everything worthwhile and anything that happened from then on was like a bone. It could be, was a bonus almost for me. And, uh, and then 2024, essentially it was one of those cutthroat things of I'd done everything perfectly in, in the year prior from sleep to eat to train. I'd never trained that hard in my life or is that that perfectly in my life and everything was kind of shaped up for things to happen. But it was like on the day, I was beat out, you know.

and a couple tenths of a second is all it takes to you know to be on or off the plane and that's just like how the dice rolled for me on that day and regardless of making or missing the Olympics getting myself to the level to even be like just yeah the tap at that level Yeah. Required so much from me and I grew so much and learned so much about myself and what I was capable of. Like I put myself in so many situations in which I had no idea how I was going to get through and I found my way through them. And you just, you realize that, I don't know, you, athletic training is so beautiful in the way that you learn so much about your own mind and what you're capable of. and how we're often usually only, you know, the first time you feel tired or like you can't do

anymore, you're usually at about 40% of what you have, you know? Yes. It's just your brain trying to protect you. So like you being able to play with that and explore that was really awesome. And I now feel like everything feels easier now having kind of gone through that. Gone through that. So you can apply everything that you've learned in that training. now to just music,

exactly. Professional, business. Exactly. Yeah. And the focus and just the, the tolerance for discomfort or the patience for the results or the, you know, the persistence required to achieve anything, you know. Yeah.

There's just all these other lessons that I learned from it that I can now, that I now feel like I was meant to go through to learn to apply to back to what I'm doing now. There you go. Nothing just happens. No, no, exactly. And in, and in a way it saved my life from. what was going on before.

It did. So it totally redirected me and I now, like, I will never be back in that place I was. It was just this whole like purification ritual, you know, in a way. Like it was such a beautiful thing to experience. So you could say swimming literally saved you. Yeah. Yeah. Because had I not even, because had I not had the desire to do that, I would have been like,

yeah, I'm going to go all the way down. this path and you know yeah I got nothing else so might as well you know so that that that that dream and that vision of being an athlete again and being a swimmer 1,000% saved my life and my well-being for sure yeah wow that's powerful yeah that's powerful yeah so so Cody now what in the world are you going to do next year you're going to run for office are you I'm going back to the main quest. I'm back in the studio. I'm, I think I'm the happiest I've been in my life.

Okay. On a day-to-day basis, I haven't felt this creative or I'm just buzzing like morning to night at the moment. And it's a really special time in my life. Like I feel like I did when I was 14 when I came over here. Really? Yeah. And I think that's, I think that's just because I had the time off I had to, to, to, and now coming back into the music business, it feels really fresh and exciting again.

Okay. You know, like I feel, I feel excited to, I love feeling like I'm at the bottom of a mountain staring up at it about to climb. Yeah. You know? And I've been in this position a few times in my life and I feel like I'm there again. Yes. And it's the most exciting place for me to be.

Like, for me, it's, it's never about reaching. the top because I know that when you get there it's not what you expected to be anyway. Right. The most joy for me comes in being right here, like standing at the bottom of it, staring up, or like on the climb, you know? Yes, yes. And so being back in music and I'm preparing a project at the moment, just signed a new record deal, which is exciting.

Congratulations. Not a 360 deal, thank God. Congratulations. You know. So you're at the bottom of the middle of the middle. mountain looking up. What's at the top? At the top is at the top is being able to go anywhere in the world and play for play music for a lot of people and bring bring them joy. And he's the first time I ever felt like I'm not in a rush in my life. So it's nice. It's really nice.

Yeah. You can see that you're in a space of you're in the probably the best space. of your life to create yes yes and it's it's it's been so fruitful because I am in this place yeah I haven't been this this creative ever like it's almost like as long as I stay in this place and remind myself of of it like it tends to the doors tending to stay open which is nice yes yeah well then you're ready for the last question okay all right here it is it's my favorite okay okay okay ready you think about all the incredible conversations you've had in your life yeah which one stands out as the most memorable who was it with and what did you learn oh my gosh it's a hard one wow

i'm not just saying this because i'm sitting here this has been really special this really has appreciate it's a really good question i think one that sticks out to me is when i was at the beginning of my swimming journey at 23. Going to, driving to my first proper training session. It was 5.15 in the morning. The sun's coming up over, L.A. and I call Phelps. And I was just like, man, I'm excited, but I'm really scared. Like, I don't know. I know what to expect, but also you don't until you're in it, you know, and, and he just gave me advice on, on persistence and just told me to expect it to take, he said it's going to take longer, way longer than you, in the moment it's going to feel like it's taking way longer than you, um, wanted to, okay,

but then when you look back, it's going to feel like it's going to feel like it happened. the blink of an eye. And he said, he just said the first few months are going to feel the hardest, and then it's going to get easier from there. And he said, you just have to persist through the, you just have to, you almost have to mentally arm yourself to know that you're going to be, you're going to be negotiated with by your own brain. And you have to be, if you're prepared to be negotiated with by your own brain,

you're going to be prepared to negotiate back. Yes. And he said, get through the first 30 days and then call me. And it was true. It was like I had built those first 30 days were the hardest. And then you kind of built a little bit of resilience. And I think it's true for anything in your life. And those first few months doing anything are going to be the most difficult,

particularly if it's a new skill or a new endeavor or whatever. And it's unfortunate that a lot of people give up in that time. Yes. at the first sign of discomfort or adversity or whatever. And I think it's those who learn how to negotiate back with themselves or stick to what they said they were going to do and do it anyway that tend to get those breakthroughs. And that's been something that swimming taught me a lot.

And something I still use in my life now is doing what you said you were going to do. So you're going to go to bed at this time, go to bed. that time. You said you were going to write two songs today, write two songs, you know? Yes. And so when you, when your brain starts to accept that it's funny, like you almost have like your, you have your reactive mind, which is the one that's going, stop, you know, and then you had the other part, the witness that's going, no, keep going. And so once you can kind of pull some space between those two parts of your brain and use the back one more, then you and your brain understands that you're going to use that one and it gets easier to

to not negotiate yes yes yeah yes yeah you get out of that that first mind into the the second mind yeah and that's the one you want to they want to be in and and and your life is a reflection of that not just through swimming but through your music career as as well you know it's like uh trading what you want, you don't want to trade what you want most for what you want now. I love that quote. I love it, you know? Love it. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. It's good. You know, I think, so you know this, you're 29, you're a young man, right? Yeah. You are in chapter two of a 22 chapter book, you know. Yeah. But you've achieved more than most people will achieve.

in their life and you've done some phenomenal things in terms of sports in terms of music right thank you but i truly believe now sitting having shared the space with you i think your greatest achievement is going to be fatherhood oh it's good goosebumps mate i think that's going to be your greatest achievement because the moment that you consciously decide that's what you're going to do you're going to be exceptional at it thank you i I've always felt like, thank you, by the way, that's very high compliment to bestow up on someone. So I appreciate that, firstly. And secondly, it's on that note, it's something I've always felt like is part of my, you know, some people know they're not going to have kids or don't want them.

You know what I mean? Like for me, it's, I know I will have them and I know that's going to be an important element in my life when it kind of. Yes. And I'm excited and I'm very excited to be a dad one day, you know, and I would like to be very, I would like to be good at it. Yeah. But that's very kind. Thank you. Yeah. Thanks so much. Thank you. And as a father, you, yeah, I'm sure you're, you're just the same. So, yeah. I appreciate you. You're gonna have to call my boys and ask them, though. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't know about that. He's talked. He says he is. He's not as good. That's awesome, man. Yeah, it's been epic.

Thank you. Yeah, I appreciate it. Thank you. Thank you. What a great guy. He has reinvented himself twice in two different career paths already by the time he's 29. My biggest impression of Cody after this conversation is how disciplined he is. And that's why I think the second music career,

that he's about to have is going to be next level because he's literally been through Olympian training. He says something that really is going to stay with me forever is once you hit the place that you want to give up, you're only 40% there. That's your brain telling you just stop, but you need to retrain your brain to just tell you to keep going and you can keep going.

That stays with me. Fame is incredibly dangerous. for everyone. No one can escape the danger of fame, namely when you come into it so young. But I also think, and he mentioned this, is that, you know, there's some very positive things that come with fame. Access, power, resources, et cetera. Now that he's older, I think he'll be able to manage it a lot differently. Pregnancy is scary. You don't know what's going on behind closed doors. The speculation, it feels like it's increased. Nobody knows because I've never spoke about it before.

I remember sneaking out X Factor to say one direction. To the relationship with Zane, it was your first true love. We were engaged to be married, but when I looked back now, it was a little bit toxic. Why do you think that is? How did you get through that heartbreak? The girls.

In terms of how successful the group was, numbers don't lie. It was really hard to have relationships because we were never home. And I remember it came out in the press that I was to do. seeing Alex and my dad was just fuming my brother was fuming you've just dated a boy band member who's completely shattered your soul and now you're going for a footballer and i was like i think i love him Alex and i've been through a lot um i remember every night before a shore i kept bleeding

i just knew something was wrong Alex just put his hand on my leg and he went oh no we lost the baby at like 24 weeks in a world that is so cruel we need more for Perry's. Before my success was kind of determined by how I would chart. And now I'm in a place with my album that if one person loves it, I'm happy. I'm done. So when are we getting new music?