We Need To Talk with Paul C. Brunson - Dr Julie Smith: How To Build Secure Relationships, Control Fear, & Live With Uncertainty.

Episode Date: February 4, 2025

In this episode of We Need To Talk we’re joined by Dr. Julie Smith, a clinical psychologist, best-selling author, and online educator known for making mental health tools accessible to millions. Dive deep into the realities of self-love, how to build secure relationships, and the hidden cost of always trying to "win" in arguments. Dr. Julie shares practical strategies to manage fear, navigate uncertainty, and transform anxiety into a source of strength.  Dr Julie’s new book Open When: A Companion for Life’s Twists and Turns is available to buy now Open When on Amazon: https://g2ul0.app.link/nCGOymXTzQb Follow Dr Julie here: Instagram - https://g2ul0.app.link/td8IlXZTzQb TikTok - https://g2ul0.app.link/kaxaiI7TzQb Follow me here: https://www.instagram.com/needtotalk https://www.tiktok.com/@weneedtotalkpod (00:00) Intro (01:43) Dr. Julie's Upbringing (04:00) Is Shyness Genetic or Learned Behavior? (06:11) Dr. Julie's Relationship With Her Husband (10:08) Why Did Dr. Julie Specialize in Clinical Psychology? (13:02) Dr. Julie's Experience Working for the NHS (16:55) Dr. Julie's Move Onto Social Media (23:10) The Success of Dr. Julie's First Book (24:40) Dr. Julie's Experience Writing Her Second Book Open When (26:15) Dr. Julie's Cancer Diagnosis (31:41) Dr. Julie's Thoughts on the Popularity of the Term "Self-Love" (34:40) What Is Metacognition? (37:23) Dr. Julie's Definition of Self-Love (40:17) How Do We Correct Our Self-Destructive Thoughts? (43:55) Keep Love Ad (44:52) Tinder Ad (45:41) What Is Dr. Julie's Definition of Self-Esteem? (50:08) How Does Confidence Relate to Self-Esteem? (54:43) How Should We Handle Criticism in Terms of Our Self-Esteem? (58:52) Do Our Values Stay the Same or Change Over Time? (1:00:07) Demonstration of Values (1:06:33) Are We More Anxious Than Ever in Society? (1:10:31) How Do We Manage the Anxieties of Modern Society? (1:14:29) Dr. Julie's Thoughts on Today's "Self-Centered" Society (1:16:57) How Do You Know if You're Ready for a Relationship? (1:18:36) Why Do We Need Relationships With Others for Our Happiness? (1:21:31) Dr. Julie's Tips for a Successful Relationship (1:24:28) Dr. Julie's Definition of Attachment Styles (1:28:01) How to Determine Your Attachment Style (1:29:52) How to Make Your Attachment Style More Secure (1:31:09) Dr. Julie's Ethos on Conflict in Relationships (1:35:15) Most Memorable Conversation (1:39:59) Paul's Takeaways (1:42:05) Adobe Express Sponsored by: Get your tickets to 'An Evening with Paul C. Brunson' here: https://bit.ly/keeplove-megaphone Pre-order Keep Love here: https://lnk.to/keeplovebook Tinder: https://tinder.com/en-GB Adobe: https://www.adobe.com/uk/express/ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

I've often seen online these things about how you've got to like heal your own stuff before you get into a relationship. If I'd have followed that rule, I never would have married, Matt. Dr. Julie Smith is a clinical psychologist and best-selling author. There's this thought that our relationship is stronger if we just don't have any conflict. Why would you want a victory over someone that you want to have a partnership with? The only person who thinks you look good in victory is you. That underlying theme is we are a team. We're going to win together or we're going to lose together.

People will say, feel like I keep having the same relationship over and over again with different people. And sometimes that can be to do with. The best thing for our own nervous system is each other. We're social beings, right? We live in groups because we survive better in groups. What's almost the litmus test to determine if your partner is far enough on their healing journey? for you to be able to commit to them. I think it's whether they're able to commit to you.

If you are anxious or avoidant, what's the number one thing you can do to become secure in your attachment? It comes down to communicating with your partner. I know I'm this way and I know I'm doing these things that drive you crazy. Here's what I'm going to try and do. Around 9 and 10 of you watching these videos

aren't subscribed yet. Now, no pressure at all, but if you're enjoying the content, subscribing is a super simple way to stay connected with us and it also helps a ton when growing the channel. We also look at every comment. So make sure you comment with your guest ideas below

and we'll get your favorite guest on our future episodes. Can we begin with where you were born and the circumstances in which you grew up? I was born not far from where I live now down in Dorset. And my parents then moved to Wiltshire. So everyone around sort of the southern counties of the UK. my mum and dad both grew up in difficult circumstances with you know in poverty so my dad grew up hungry um but once he met my mum they managed and they had us children they worked their socks off so that

we could have the kind of security that they hadn't had and one of three girls so i've got an older sister and younger sister um yeah and and that was us really that was you so you're the middle child yeah now sometimes we hear the middle child is the wild child which is absolutely not the case. You know, I'm the sensible one, the boring one, the one who always did my homework. And I was the shy one, the quiet one. Even within the sort of family, you know, we would go to my grandparents' house and all the cousins to get together and things. And I remember my grandmother always saying, you know, Julie's the quiet one.

She's in the corner. You know, I read a lot. I worked really hard at school. I had friends and good social life and social skills. but I'm just an introvert, I guess. And so I also liked that kind of quiet side. And yeah. Okay, fair.

So you're an introvert. Yeah. Would you also say that you're shy as well? Yeah, yeah, as a child, for sure. Well, I guess that's still there to a degree. I just have the confidence and the skills to override it now, probably. But my natural inclination is to step back. But I think I've become more aware as an adult.

and as a clinician, that those tendencies to step back or, I call it kind of, I would always grace people with my absence. So I, you know, felt like a bit of, you know, they didn't want to bother with me. So I would step back or I would, you know, disengage. And I now see that as, other people can read that as, well, they don't want to engage with me. Whereas that was just a symptom of kind of being shy, I guess. Interesting. A young person, yeah. Where does that stem from?

Because I'm unsure, you know, I hear that introversion is a component of how we're born in genetics, etc. But that shyness is more so socialized. Is that true or not? I think there's a combination of the, I think you can't really separate them. I think you have that natural tendency and your own kind of personal traits. But they're born out of not only your genetics, but also the environment. you grew up in as well. In different circumstances,

maybe a child who had a tendency to be shy might become something different. But with me, I don't know. Grew up in the 80s, 90s when, you know, things were a certain way. So I was able to sit quietly when I needed to. I wasn't sort of pushed out. But actually then when I got to like senior school and I was in my teenage years,

I loved theatre and getting involved in it. And I think there was something, I recognized at that point as well that it was because I could be someone different and completely, I always played sort of rewild characters who were a bit off the wall and could do kind of crazy stuff. And I loved that maybe because it was a bit of a freedom to be able to do those things.

I maybe felt too shy to do normally. Yeah. I was introverted. I still am, you know, introverted. A lot of people say, no way. I'm sure they say the same thing to you. Yeah. But I am.

and I was shy as well. However, what happened is that we moved quite a bit when I was younger, and I was in different circles. And I realized that I would come alive in certain circumstances and then distance myself in others. And theater was something I enjoyed. And so I would come alive. And it's connecting for the first time.

Maybe it's because of what you're saying is the ability to step into another character. Yeah, yeah. There's a freedom in that, isn't there? Because it doesn't say anything fundamentally about who you are if you get it wrong or if you do something a bit kind of different. It doesn't, there's no consequence to it. It's nice. Yeah. Freedom. It is. So you met your husband when you were young. Yeah. Young, young. Yeah. But you didn't marry young, young. No, it's a bit of a running joke that it took him 10 years to persuade me to go out with him because we met when we were 11. So we both. We both. went to the same, we were in different kind of junior schools and then we met in the senior school and we were all kind of in the same front of small town. We're in a sort of similar friendship group so we all hung out as kids and it wasn't until I went off to university. He started a business in our hometown and then we met up in my final year of university just before my 21st birthday and we got together then but because we were already you know, best friends, it just made sense. It just worked. And we all, and, you know, our

relationship has just got better and better because we've always had that underlying friendship. We know each other so well. And we enjoy spending our time, you know, if we weren't together together, we'd be mates. So, yeah, it just works. If I was single now and I met someone, I only know about their life what they tell me. And there's something strange about. that requires such a huge leap of faith in someone. Whereas when you know someone and you know all the people that they know, there's no guessing games about what someone's values are or whether a trustworthy person or not, you know. So yeah, I really am thankful for that. That is insightful. That's insightful. You know, you then, so you rekindled the friendship, right?

in your 20s and then you were married by? So that would have been 2005 when I graduated and then we got married after I completed my doctorate in 2011. Okay. Okay, fair enough. Yeah, so we lived together in that time. Yeah, so as I was graduating, I was going to go off traveling and he said, you know, he'd been running the business.

He said, like, I'm backed by a house. If I buy it, will you move in with me? So that was a kind of big judgment of, oh, do I go off and do the, you know, crazy traveling stuff? or do I get this a shot? And I said, okay. So, yeah, and we never looked back. You gave it a shot?

Yeah. You gave it a shot. I have to explore that just for a quick second. Yeah. Because there's so many people, I believe, are in that quandary of, okay, I have path, door A or door B, right? Yeah. Door A is my partner wants me to do this thing over there. That means I'm settling down with them.

Yeah. Or B is I can go off and do something adventurous. Yeah. You chose A. Yeah. Why? Because it felt fundamentally different. Because you know what?

So before I came back and Matt and I met again, I'd had a boyfriend while I was at university who knew I had, we both knew I had the plan to go travelling and I never occurred to me to stay. That we knew that was going to end and I was going to go. But with Matt, and maybe that's love. Maybe that's the strength the feeling you just know something is this is big and this is not just anyone and you know

Australia is not going anywhere so I can travel later but this is now and um and actually when I think about what I want to be doing with my time do I want to be over there thinking about this guy or do I want to just be here building this relationship and so um I think the ease of the decision was a good indicator of the fact that it was right, you know. But when you're sort of, oh, shall I shant I? Maybe that's because you're not so sure about the person. I don't know. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. So your doctorate and you were studying specifically clinical psychology. Clinical psychology. Yeah. Why? Why clinical psychology? Do you know what? I think people often ask me if I have like an

epiphany moment where I thought, this is what I want to do. And it really didn't happen. wish I had a great story for that. But I really just followed my interests and I didn't even have a big thing about wanting to, you know, save people or, you know, do great things. People, I just found it fascinating. And, you know, that kind of like quiet child thing, I read a lot as a kid. And all this, when I look back, the stuff I read, I didn't read sort of fantasy stuff or science fiction. I read stuff about real people in real lives, that sort of, you know, relationships, stuff. and things that told me about the intricacies of people and how they relate to each other

and how people deal with things. I just interested me. And I didn't think anything of it at the time. But now I look back and I see that fascination that was there. And as a child, I used to, I have memories of laying in bed at night where I must have been under the age of like seven. A dark winter's night, cold out. outside raining and I was sit there unable to get to sleep because I was worrying about all the

kind of animals that live outside and would they be cold? What about these children across the world who were starving or in a different, you know, or children who didn't have parents? So I would just kind of sit and worry about it. It was almost like a magnification of, um, or an exaggeration of empathy and compassion. It was, you know, gone too far really because I was up and like worrying about it. Um, so there was that inclination. But when I started studying, I was just gripped. I just, all the research and so this is, okay, what's this? And what about that?

And I just couldn't stop asking questions. And so it made sense for me to do that at university, even though I didn't know what to do with it. It made sense after my undergrad, there was a job, a research job in an addictions unit that sounded fascinating to me. So I thought, well, let's try that because I don't know what I'm doing. And then while I was there, there were other students there who were trying to get onto the clinical course and then kind of showed me the path. Well, I get to study psychology again, so let's do it. Let's do it. Yeah, because it lights you up. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And still now, you know, even though it's my work, if I have free time, I will generally read psychology stuff. And yeah, that's a good indication,

isn't it, that you're in the right job. This is definitely your passion. Proper geek. Yeah, you were proper. Although geeks are the coolest people on the planet right now, so you're very cool. You're very cool. I know I say to my kids, you know, don't diss the nerds because, you know. The nerds end up running the world. Exactly. All right. Now, if we, even to go back around that time, you worked in the NHS before private practice. Yeah.

So during the NHS, what is that experience like for a psychologist? Because, and also, if you can clarify this, is I've often heard that the waiting time to see a psychologist in the NHS is long. as a result of they're not just being enough, you know, psychologists. So what was your experience like at the NHS? Yeah, it was, it's tough because you do your training, and there are all these kind of ideals about how you can do therapy and how long that would take and what can be achieved with that. And then you get into a real environment like the NHS where I worked in a ward,

an acute ward that was just for guys from the MOD and girls from the MAD at the time when we were in Afghanistan. So lots of military trauma and stuff. I worked in intensive care wards and outreach teams for people who are really poorly and might need to come to hospital, crisis teams, and then community teams as well where people are living at home, but they come in for help. And in a community team, that team might have, I don't know, a couple of thousand people on their books. And there would be a team of nurses and a few doctors. And then there would be one, maybe two psychologists. So a fraction, you know, a fraction of the people that get into the community team would ever see a psychologist.

And then because there's such a weight and hardly any people get to see them, there's that pressure to get results fast. But results don't happen fast because, you know, these people are dealing with problems that have built up over their entire lives. It's not going to change in a month. You need time and to work on things to have any significant. So you feel like you're trying to do your job with your hands tied behind your back a lot of the time. And I don't think there's any clear-cut answers to that. But it's really tough for clinical. And what I could see was lots of people, individuals, whatever their profession was,

who so badly wanted to do so much good for people in their community and just did the best that they could and often did more than was expected of them to try and kind of help people and stuff. So, yeah, it was good work, but tricky. But tricky. Yeah. When I look at the trajectory in terms of the number, the decrease relative to the population of clinicians, you think what is going to come of the future?

And is that probably what informs your work today? Because it just doesn't feel like there are enough clinicians in the world for people who are in need of therapy. Yeah. And at the time, I didn't really know what the answers were. But I just remember feeling like I just wanted to help more people than we could. And seeing there was so much need there. And once I had two of my now three children, I realized I couldn't do it all, not well anyway.

So that was when I thought, okay, let's take a break for the NHS, let's do some private work so that I can manage it around the children and be a parent. And it was in that time that I realized a lot of the people coming along found the educational stuff really helpful. They didn't need long-term therapy. They just didn't have any sense of agency in managing their own mental health and they didn't realize the positive impact they could have

just by learning a few skills or a few concepts and practicing that. So I used to just, yeah, poor old Matt used to listen to me going, this should be more available and, you know, why should people have to pay to come and see people like me to find out how they're in brainworks? So he said, well, go on then, make it available. So he said, well, let's make a few YouTube videos or something.

And you can put it out there and then you can direct your clients to it when they're not with you and stuff. And, yeah, I made a few terrible YouTube videos that I hope to never see again. And yeah, and then he said, oh, look at this. I've seen TikTok. Look at the end. And there was all these kids on there, like dancing and there's some comedians. And a few people were expressing their distress, you know, saying they were struggling. couldn't find anyone responding to that with anything decent

you know kind of mental health education or anything like that so why don't you do like you know and I said no it's a chance like no way I'll get laughed out there or trolled out of there and he said well you know if no one listens or it doesn't you don't respond well we'll just close the account down and that'll be that so we gave it a go so I do the school run come home prop my phone up on the table say a few things that came to mind and within

like two weeks it was just every video was getting more of views people were messaging and emailing and putting comments what's the next bit what's the next step I'm waiting for the next video and I thought oh my goodness

this is actually reaching people and they're interested and hungry for the next bit and so we just kind of went with it and followed as soon as they stopped they stop being interested, we'll forget it. And that didn't happen. That didn't happen. That was 2019. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. What do you believe it was about you, what you were saying, maybe what the need was, etc., that made your video so popular? Probably the simplicity of it, because a lot of the

ideas are really abstract and really difficult to kind of have any kind of substance to it. It's difficult to, and when you're, you know, you're competing against that scrolling thumb of, if it's not interesting, people are gone. So we saw it as a bit of a creative challenge. Like, how can we make this visual or, you know, and there was some stuff that you already made visual in therapy. So certain, I had like these different props around my therapy room and stuff that I would use to help explain a concept that would usually take 20, 25 minutes to explain. Suddenly I've got 60 seconds. That was a creative challenge as well. And yeah, so we would just use these props. And then whenever we did something like that and made it really visual, people got it and they responded to it and

they wanted more. And so, yeah, so we use a lot of that kind of stuff. That really helps. But you know the secret ingredient that you haven't mentioned. You know what it is. Come on. You know what it is. You know what it is. Go on, Julie. Say it, say it. Do you know what? I try to talk to the camera as if it's a person. And I've spent years sitting in rooms for people talking to people.

And even though that feels super awkward, and at the beginning, I couldn't even have my husband in the room when I was filming because it just felt so embarrassing and awkward and horrible. But I would try to, yeah, just imagine that I'm speaking to a person. And even though I had a script and stuff like that. because we tried I hate it

I hate being in the you know the limelight and stuff like that so I said why don't we try and do some videos where I'm not in it but we'll use some B-roll and then I'll write a script and I'll record and they just didn't go anywhere that people just didn't like them so

they wanted you but do you know but do you know why they wanted you I mean this is now I'm connecting this for the first time someone who has watched many of your videos, right, and meeting you, do you know what, at least, do you know what it is? Do you know what your magic is? I don't know.

The hair works. The hair works. See, look, this is why I can't get anywhere. It's like, why I'm doing here. It is because of your authenticity. You are the same person that I meet here. Yeah. Before we're talking, you know, before here, we're talking like, you know, backstage.

Yeah. On your videos, on stage, you are authentically you. You're consistent. And what I see happens so often, especially in the television industry, is that you see, you know, people are not. They don't walk their talk. They present one way in one area and totally different in another. But you are consistent. And that consistency is so refreshing.

And I believe that is the key. in addition to all these other things that were mentioned. I kind of, I, it's in some ways it made it really difficult to because I, I've got a daughter and I'm really aware of the sort of toxicity of a lot of the social media staff that's out there. And so I always wanted to not be a part of that and not do something that could have a negative impact on someone. So I always tried to be kind of as, you know, normal as possible and not present this sort of like, I've got my life sorted, so just be like me type thing. Because I'm just a human like everybody else, right?

I didn't want to try and present anything that was unrealistic or not true. But that also means being a bit vulnerable. And I'm also a professional and I have clients. So I felt like I was on this sort of tightrope really where I was like, you know, how much of myself do I share? how much of my family do I share? And I think we're the first people that are really navigating this because it's all so new, isn't it? There's no guidebook, is there?

There's no one who's done it before and sort of sailed through. No, we're finding our way. Yeah. And I think as we're walking this path, what we're looking for is just any type of affirming by any means that, okay, we're on the right path. And I would say that probably, correct me if I'm wrong here, but probably the first massive affirming that you got that you were on the right path

was the success of your first book. Yeah. I mean, that's like, can we talk about that for a second? Do you know what? I, when I handed it in, I had this moment of, I don't want it to be a failure. I don't want it to be pulped next week, but I also don't really want anyone to read it.

Really? You know, that sort of vulnerability of put lots into their, but this is really exposing. It's the shy girl part, right? And I definitely had that moment. And I had no concept of what publishing success was. How many do you need to sell? Like, what's a lot?

I don't know. I had no idea. Therefore, I had no expectations. I just got my head down and I worked and worked and worked and made videos and went on podcasts and, you know, just tried to kind of say, it's out there if anybody wants help. And yeah, it was, it went to number one on the Sunday times than the first week.

And yeah, it just kept selling. And that's how it works for therapy, right? When I did private therapy, I thought, oh, my God, I'm going to have to learn how to advertise and do all this. Didn't do that. Right. It was, I never thought it would be word of mouth. But it's very private when you're in it. And then when you find something that helps and you're on the other side of it, you then come across someone who's struggling and you go, try that.

That's really helpful. It worked for me. And you can't wait to help people. And I think that's what's happened with this stuff. Why has nobody told me this before is the book? So what's the pressure when writing Open Wind? This is your new one. You must have pressure.

Yeah, it made it such a different experience on publication. I think I was better at the writing experience because the first time, there was a lot, every day I had to just get over myself and that fear of, I've convinced everyone I can do this. Can I? and then had to, you know, get over that to be able to start typing. There was the second time round, I knew I could write, but there was more expectation from everybody else. Whereas the first time I didn't know what success was.

I didn't know, you know, what to expect. I just went with it, whereas this time it was, will it get on the Sunday times? Or won't it? Or will do, and so it definitely changed the experience a little bit. Now, when you were writing Open When, you went through a life-changing experience. Yeah. Can you talk about that and how it impacted, not just your writing, but your life? Yeah. So I was about six weeks away from handing the book in, so last March.

And I found a lump in my breast. And I'd been through that before. I'd had lumps and bumps, got them tested, they were nothing. It was all fine. Didn't expect it to therefore be anything. And I genuinely had the thought, like, oh, so. six weeks. So much to do. So little time. Should I just wait until the book's in before I go and get this sorted? Then get myself a bit of talking to and said, don't be so silly, pick up the phone,

make the appointment, made the appointment. And then about a week or two before I handed the book in, got the diagnosis of an early stage breast cancer. So as early as you can possibly find it, which is, you know, was in the best position I could be in that situation. but nonetheless, scary as hell. Can we spend a moment on that? Yeah. Because you are in your late 30s. Yeah.

You get an early cancer diagnosis. Yeah. How do you handle that? Do you know what? There's that moment. I told my husband, I told Matt, don't worry about coming with him. I'd been through it before. It would always turn out fine.

and my son was not very well at that point so someone needed to take him to the doctors that day and I said why don't you take Luke to the doctors I'll go and sort this out and then we're done I think because they just called me like 40 hours before the appointment or something to say you've got an appointment day after tomorrow I think Matt kind of thought

Matt doesn't sound right I'm coming so he came along thank goodness because then we walked into the room and the consultant's there and the McMillan nurse is next to him and you just, I remember as I sat down I just got this sort of like this rush of adrenaline just went through my body

and I just sort of like heated up and he's leaning forward looking sad and I'm just sort of like not really registering all of the words but thinking like I'm free falling like what on earth is happening and I remember Matt sort of he'd be given a chair a little way over

and he kind of shuffled in and grabbed my hand kind of thing and I almost couldn't I think at that point I kind of tip my hand away and I almost couldn't you know like it's the someone hugs you and your burst of tears thing like I just needed to go into okay let's what is this

what do we need to do when do we need to do it how we do blah la la la la I needed to go into sort of business mode of let's sort this out and I needed to kind of register what the guy was saying and then so we didn't really have a moment until we then left the room

of, because it's weird you find out in bits and bob. So they say, well, you know, it's these pre-cancer cells and da-da-da-da, we're going to have to take it out. But before that, they've got to do lots of other tests to find out how far it's gone, where, you know, if it's spread or those kind of thing. So there's still lots of uncertainty. It's not like you find out your fate on that day. So, yeah, we had a bit of a moment after when they said, okay, you've got all these other tests to do and biopsies and stuff. which I knew was just horrible procedure. And so they said, you know, take 20 minutes, go have a drink.

And we sat outside. And that was, I think, when we had this like, what the actual, you know, what is, what's going on? Yeah. How do you handle that moment because you have the theoretical, experience now on how to handle moments like this. Thank God you have an incredible partner that's with you. But at the same time, you're a human being. You know, you're a mom.

Yeah. So how do you handle that? Yeah. I think that was the biggest thing was your mind immediately goes to your children. I need to be here. And there's that, you know, it wasn't a huge. amount of time, it feels like huge amount of time at the time, but that period where you don't know and you have all those tests and then you're waiting for the results, the results came back

and the recommendation changed. And we didn't want to tell the kids until we knew what the plan was and that I was going to be alright and all that kind of thing. I was trying to get rid of the book, so I'd almost finished, I was just reading through and editing and then I wanted to hand it in. and I just happened to be reading the chapter on fear when fear hits you and I read it I thought this isn't what I need so I pressed delete

deleted the whole thing started again I wrote what I needed to hit with a sort of letter at the beat so each chapter is a scenario and it starts with a letter from me that's a bit of a pep talk it's like okay here we are here's the deal here's what to focus on and then the skills come next

and and the letter just was really gentle, a bit like how, you know, Matt had tried to grab my hand in the meeting and I'd gone, no, let's just focus. I needed that focus. And if you read that chapter as a bit like like a sports coach or something, okay, here we are. We can't change the fact that fear is here and it's the worst kind of fear. And every time I read it, it got me back on the front foot and a sense of action. And so that time when we didn't know what to do, I read that chapter that day and then me and my husband just started calling people and then we planned in the operation

and got it done got it done yeah there you go and today you are that's not word but touch with i'm on the other side you're on the other side thank goodness for all of us yeah when i look at society today it feels i feel as if there are a lot of messages yeah around self-love you got to love yourself, you got out of yourself, but very little on what does that actually mean. Yeah. And why is it technically important? So let's start with that part. Why is self-love so important?

I think first and foremost, you have to be honest with yourself. So I'm not part of that kind of, you must have high self-esteem all the time. You must tell yourself you're great all the time. Like all the stuff online about like positive affirmations. and you know tell yourself you love yourself and you're amazing in the mirror and then you'll believe it and and that's fine if somebody already has a fairly decent estimation of themselves I might make them give a little boost in the moment it won't last it kind of tails off but if someone has sort of quite destructive core beliefs and they don't love themselves

or they don't believe they're strong or they don't believe they're worthy of love and you get them to start kind of saying that stuff to themselves over and over again they don't start to believe it they come up with in their mind all the reasons why it's not true and it starts this internal battle

of you know I am worthy well actually you're pretty rubbish at this and you're pretty you know you just start this internal kind of destructive pattern of thought which can then just become

more consuming for people so the way that we learn and change our beliefs is through evidence of action. So for me, I think if I'm working with someone and they don't have that kind of basic care or love for themselves is to look at how they can start delivering it through actions. So you have a duty to look after yourself as if

as if you have a responsibility to do the absolute best by yourself. You know, if you were, you know, not everyone as parents, but you can imagine if you were responsible for a child, or a young person and it was your responsibility to make sure that they, you know, lived a full, happy life

and, you know, reached their potential and had good relationships and cut themselves healthy. What are the decisions you would make for them? Right. How would you treat them?

And when they tripped and fell and they made mistakes, how would you speak to them then? And it's that sort of like, it's okay to feel something, isn't it? But do you then follow it up with action and behavior? Yes. Because that's the stuff that convinces us. Okay. So those thoughts that you were talking about before that intrude and say, you know, negative thoughts, in essence. Is that this metacognition idea? Is that what that is? Yeah. So metacognition,

so we all have the ability to think. And then we all have this incredible, we think it's a very only humans kind of thing, but this ability to think about what we're thinking about. Okay. So I can, I don't know, I'll knock my drink over and I'll start thinking, oh, you absolute idiot, you've made a fall of yourself, you're very clumsy, you're doing this. And then I could go, oh, wow, I'm being so self-critical right now. I'm being really harsh on myself. And that's the metacognition is thoughts about the thoughts.

Okay. And that's really what we'd use in therapy is, you know, people will come into the room, they'll offload about the week and then I go wow look wow look at how you said that or what does that mean so what were you thinking at the time when you did that and so it's all that process of just getting a kind of bird's eye view on the situation and being able to see your thoughts for what they are so it's metacognition is the thoughts about the thoughts yeah and it's just having a thought about the thought it's it's no other further analysis it's just the thought about the fight. Yeah, so it leads to further analysis. So you can then look at, okay, was that warranted or is it true? Or because, you know, most thoughts are biased because your thoughts influence how you feel and how you feel influences your thoughts. So people might often think of it in the first way. So they'll say, you know, if you're self-critical, then you'll feel depressed or you'll feel low. But actually, also if you're emotional for whatever reason, let's say you're really stressed out, you've got a lot

going on and you're exhausted, so your emotions are heightened, then you're also more likely to be self-critical in those moments. Yes. And the fact that it's influenced in that direction as well shows us that thoughts are not factual because how can they be if they're influenced by your emotional state? Yes. Which fluctuates all the time. Yes. So there's real power in that because we often have what's called emotional reasoning as well. So you'll feel something. So I feel like an imposter, therefore I am one. Or I feel like a fraud, therefore I must be one. And I'm not worthy to be here. Or, you know, I feel like a failure. Therefore I am. And so it's, so emotional reasoning is when we, we feel something, therefore we believe it must be true. Okay. Okay. Fair enough. So then how do we,

when we have, so we've done the analysis, right, from the metacognition, right? How do we then change our thought? What do we do to increase the positivity in how we're talking about ourselves? Because, and two is, actually, let me go back to this, is what is self-love? Because that is also something that I hear, you know, 15 different definitions of what self-love. What is it? I think it's a set of choices You know you can feel love for someone else I mean it's the action thing isn't it Do you show that in what way do you show that

And how do you have evidence of that You might experience something in terms of feeling When you're around them or when you're thinking about them That kind of thing But then what does that mean in terms of what you do And so I think it's When it's talking about loving yourself, it's about treating yourself as if you're someone you love, isn't it?

And having genuine compassion for yourself. So when I do things like the live TV or something when I go on this morning, and it's genuinely pretty terrifying at the beginning, the way that I managed that was not by saying, you know, I'm really good, or I'm the best. If those horror stories in my mind come true, you know, I fall over, flash my underwear to the nation, whatever, you know, humiliation,

I'll have my own back. I'll look after myself as if I would, if it was my daughter doing it. I will not kick myself, if I make a mistake, I will not kick myself while I'm down. I'll be very careful about how I speak to myself in response to that and how I treat myself in response to that. Because if I haven't got my own back, then who has?

And, you know, if I'm putting myself into situations where I feel vulnerable, the only reason I'm going to have the drive to do that is if I'm going to look after myself through it as well. Yes. So I think there's something about that. It's a commitment to having your own back and having your own best interests at heart. Because if you really love someone, you have their best interest at heart. You want the best for them. You do.

You do. And I love, it's interesting, as a parent, it's, I'm with you. It's, it's so easy to say, okay, this is how I treat my child. So therefore, I should be treating myself the same way. Yeah. But I would imagine for anyone, it is anyone that you love. Yeah. You could be your dog, right? Any being, right, that you love. Are you treating yourself that way? Yeah. So then to go back to the metacognition, you're having the thought about the thought. So let's say we're on this morning. And it's, we're nervous. We're nervous. We're nervous. We're going to fall. The thought about the thought is, is, oh, I am an idiot. I said something that was, I shouldn't have said this. Then how do we correct that so that we are self-loving?

So some people correct it. So in certain therapies, you'll go down the route to things like thought challenging. So you might look at the evidence for it. So you try to kind of break down or loosen the belief in it. So you might do that by challenging it. saying, well, is that true? Is it warranted? What's the evidence for it being true? You know, and you do the take your thoughts to court thing where you go, what exactly, if we've taken that thought to court in real life, where would the evidence be that that was actually true? And what would be the evidence against? And you kind of just weigh it up in your mind. And that is, it can be pretty effective for loosening off certain beliefs, especially things about sort of with anxiety and stuff like that where you're predicting things that are unlikely

or something like that. But for some people it's a bit like the affirmations in the mirror thing where it sets up an argument in your mind and what happens is you just become too consumed with trying to challenge these thoughts and then another one comes along and it's just too much.

So for those people we do or what I call kind of thought diffusion so this is part of acceptance and commitment therapy where you try to take a step back so you put that thought at arm's length so that you can see it for what it is. Right. So if I, if, if, if I have a thought and it's here and I, all I can see is that thought and I'm, I'm going to accept that as fact. That's my reality. Whereas if I push it back to here,

I go, okay, there's a thought. Then you can kind of see what it is, see it for what it is, which, okay, it could be biased. It's one possible scenario, it's one possible perspective on this situation. But by by putting it back there, I've got some room to look at other possible scenarios. Okay. So, so in this example, let's say, because I think everyone could empathize and sympathize what this is calling yourself an idiot. I think we've all been there, right? I've been there five times today. You know, so it's like, okay, I'm an idiot. Yeah. But, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, I would say, um, um, um, one way of putting at arm's length. Um, it's a, um, um, um, um, it's a say, I notice I'm having thoughts that I'm an idiot. And just by adding that to the beginning,

I'm having thoughts that I'm an idiot reminds you that their thoughts. That's powerful. Yeah. It's powerful. Because you're not just saying this is a fact. You're saying there are a load of thoughts coming into my head that I'm an idiot. Or, you know, when I was going through the cancer thing, there are loads of thoughts, you know, horror stories coming to my mind about I'm going to die. I know that there's a set of thoughts there. But because I've seen that as, you know, I've labeled them as catastrophizing thoughts. They're the horror story thoughts, the worst case scenarios. Just by labeling them as a type of thought, I've already taken some of the power out of them.

Yes. And I know it's one way I can go. And I know if I go down that route and give those all my attention, I know exactly how I'm going to feel. Absolutely awful. Terrified. They're always there as an option. What are the other options I can consider? Exactly. There's power in that. That is. You know, two game changes already is I love take your thoughts to court. Yeah. Oh my gosh. That is good.

I'm going to be using that. That is very good. An argument. Yeah. But then also, you're right is I notice I'm having thoughts about. It feels like what it does is it gives me more authority. It gives me more, it's like I'm taking the power back from the thought. Yeah.

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Download Tinder today and see where your next connection might lead. What about, you know, still within the self-love is, you know, self-esteem and how self-esteem is wrapped into self-love. So, A, how do you define self-esteem? because I think it's important for us to all be on the same page. Yeah. And then how do we boost it? And should we always be in this zone of constantly trying to increase our self-esteem? Self-esteem is almost your sort of your estimation of yourself, if you're like, you know, whether you regard yourself as good enough and, you know, a decent person.

Whereas I've totally moved away from that idea to, I think, what's more important. is self-compassion because A, you have to be able to be honest with yourself. So if it's all about sort of blind self-esteem, it's like you are, you are good, you are doing great,

you're, you know, but you also have to have room for improvement without feeling terrible about yourself. So, so, I don't know, there's, um, within the sort of self-compassion.

I'm trying to think of, an example I would use in therapy where let's say you took an exam and you didn't study and you got you failed it and you're feeling terrible about yourself and you're saying you know I'm a failure I you know I should have studied my life's over you could have a friend who would say don't worry it doesn't matter like it's just an exam like you're great you're brilliant and don't even think about it, pretend it never happened. That would be kind of self-indulgence, right? Yes.

It's trying to boost your self-esteem, make you feel fantastic. And he's ignoring the fact that you haven't fulfilled your potential or you haven't done what you now realize mattered to you. Whereas another friend who perhaps was compassionate might say, you know, that's really tough to go through and, you know, tough learning experience. I get that studying law or whatever is really important to you. So let's work on it together.

What happened? What stopped you from studying? There is still potential to do this again and to improve. But let's work on it. Let's do the difficult thing that really matters to you so that as you start to work on that and get through it, you can feel good about yourself. Yes.

But it doesn't require you to feel good about yourself right now. It just requires you to treat. yourself with respect and to say, I don't think any less of you because you made a mistake, just know that this is something we need to work on. Yes. You know, and it's that idea that you can only love yourself when you're successful or when everything's right. No, no, no.

You just have that basic respect for yourself and care for yourself and a duty to do the best by yourself. So you could be honest. So the best friends are the ones who are honest, but deliver that honesty with compassion and respect and you know they want the best for you. So if my child says, this happens a fair bit, I don't want to go to school for a same. I'm tired.

Indulgence would be, okay, we'll go back to school when you feel like this. Yeah? Said my parents never. So compassion would be, I get it. I didn't feel like getting up this morning either. It's tough some days. But it's really important that we go sometimes even when we don't feel like it. because your education is really important.

Let's go and I'll help you get there and then we'll have an early night tonight and we'll do what's best of you. But recognize that this is our priority today because you're not poorly or whatever. So compassion is often doing it. It's given a bad rap because people confuse it with indulgence but it's often doing the hardest thing

that has your best interest in the long run. I see. I see. So self-compassion, much more powerful in your eyes than self-esteem, especially in this day and age. If you have compassion for yourself, then you can get through a period of time where your self-esteem is lower.

Okay. So self-esteem might fluctuate depending on successes and failures, but you can face failures if you do that with compassion. With compassion, okay. Does confidence read into this in any way? Because I've often looked at confidence, and I've heard a lot of people describe confidence as a muscle,

that we just need to continually build. And when we have confidence, we're able to treat ourselves with more self-compassion, more self-love. So what to you, what is confidence and is this something that we need to be focused on building constantly? Yeah, so I would say a lot of confidence

is situation-specific, but we don't necessarily realize that because we tend to kind of funnel into our own lives, right? So, you know, I'm coming into your podcast space that you're, you know, fairly used to, see by now. And so it's very familiar to you, but my stress response might give a little spike because it's novel to me. So my brain is saying, be alert because we don't know this situation. We need to kind of deal with this. It's not automated yet. Whereas if I took you into a mental

health hospital, you might be like, I don't know what I'm doing here. I don't know how to get it right or what to say. So it's situation specific. Yes. And so if there's something you, want to to master and to feel more confident at, I would always say don't aim for confidence. Confidence is a byproduct of being willing to be vulnerable, be the beginner, put yourself in a situation where you don't feel confident and sit with it and repeat it again and again and put the work in until your brain starts to automate some of that and when your brain is able to predict a scenario and how it will run and you feel able to have agents. see in that situation, you know you can handle different scenarios, then you have that confidence

that you can kind of deal with it. Yeah, I see that. Yeah. I see that. So how does that relate to our relationships? You know, so you think about people who say, gosh, I just don't feel confident dating, you know, is it, okay, go out on five dates so you can build that muscle. Is that, in essence, what it is? That would be a great thing.

And that's generally what happens in therapy, you know, with, like, phoenix. or social anxiety and stuff like that. You'll do, you'll do the work on the thought stuff, like we were saying earlier about, you know, dealing with kind of negative thoughts or anxious worries and that kind of thing. But you also do a behavioural side. So you'll make a scale and you'll look at,

okay, what's the scariest situation you can think of in terms of social interactions, dating or whatever? Maybe like a big group date with speed dating or something. is like the scariest thing. And maybe the easiest thing is just going out for coffee with my friend and someone else I don't know yet. And you don't start with the scariest thing. You start with the easiest thing that feels like a challenge but doable because you need an easy win to begin with. So you do something that's just a little bit challenging and you do it again and again until it feels easy.

And what happens is you kind of have like your comfort zone and then you have a kind of fear zone outside of that. You just want to step slightly out and keep doing that until what happens is the comfort zone grows to encompass that. So the thing that you do every day will become that comfort zone, right? So you do that and then you step outside of it again. And you keep – so the idea is you have to repeat it quite frequently. Okay. So if you, you know, go on a date once a year, it's always going to be terrifying, right? Because it's always new.

Where it a bit like me with the kind of TV stuff, if I do it a lot, as far as far as. If I have a break, it's like starting again. And it's scary again. And that's just your brain saying this is novel, be alert, get your A game on because we can't remember how to do this. Sure. By the way, I have surveyed endlessly around what's the scariest dating scenario. And you almost got it 100%, but you missed one thing. So you said big group speed dating.

Yeah. It's big group naked speed dating. Who knew that was a thing? It's a thing. It's a thing. Oh my God. I've got an education today. That would be the scariest thing.

That wouldn't be the scariest thing. That would be the scariest thing. Imagine being so comfortable. I make it group speed date all the time. Wow, that is. It's wild. Julie, the streets are wild. The streets are wild.

Okay, so. I'm small time, folks. All right, so what about, and this reads, I think, you know, specifically, into building up that confidence is criticism and disapproval, right? Because I feel as if this is, this is it, we're a critique, especially in social media. Yeah.

Everything, to the point where I was talking to someone else about this where my son, he's going to hate me for saying this, what I would say it is, so he's 14, right? And he'll go on to socials and he'll look at the comments. And this is how, actually, this is how he determines whether or not he will look at a video. is he won't look at the header of the video, he won't look at the thumbnail,

he'll go into the comments, and he'll look for whether or not there's critiques of the video. Before he's watched the video. Before he's watched it. And I thought, for me, it feels so bizarre. But what he's looking for is he's looking for whether or not there's conviction

on the part of other people who are watching to say, no, you should watch it. And others say, no, you shouldn't watch it. And that's how he knows I should watch this thing. Yes, he's looking for the social proof. Yes. Yes. But so with criticism, because it does feel like it's everywhere, how do we manage this,

especially when we're trying to keep ourselves a love alive? Because that's an interesting experimentism, because in doing that, he's assuming that the people making the comments have good taste or have his taste or have the same interests as him and our decent judge of a good video. So it's putting a lot of trust into these. strangers, right? He is. Yeah.

Rather than diving in and taking a risk with your time and interesting. Yeah, I guess. So I think when it comes to criticism, especially on social media, I think one of the biggest skills is determining what's helpful criticism and what's not, what's personal attack or stuff that's going to bring you down. But again, you know, if you're only going to listen to people that are, sort of saying everything's wonderful and you're doing great, is there much to learn from that? I don't know. But equally, you don't want to just open yourself up to, you know,

randoms on the internet that are having a bad day and decide to kind of take it out on you. So it's sort of I've probably more important skill than ever to teach our kids and adults this that is determining whose opinions matter, whose opinions do you value and why, do those people have your best interest at heart because they need to if they're going to have valuable information to bring and um does that match up to so does their criticism uh align with your goals or your values and what you're trying to head to if your son was going to acting school and that was his dream but you wanted him to do law school and that was your dream for him so you were criticizing his every move um would that criticism be helpful to him maybe

be not, but if you, if it was different, if you're, if you wanted him to, you know, achieve his dreams of being an actor and, and then he was doing a performance and you were saying, oh, try this, or actually that wasn't great. So let's try doing that. That's really helpful criticism, right? Because it's helping him on his part. Yes. And it's constructive. Yes. You know, one way I've looked at it and tell me if, if this, you think this is the right way to look at it is, is that our self-love is, in essence, knowing our values and then feeding those values, right? So let's say, for example, if family is a value, I know that's a value of yours, it's a value of mine.

So feeding it means spending time with my family, right? And by feeding that value, I'm actually participating in an act of self-love. Yeah. You know? Yeah. So it is knowing, to your point, is reaching a point where we know our values,

and then we're feeding them. But then that begets to, how do we know, you know, how do we know those values and our values, and I know this is highly debated, are they ever set in stone or do they fluctuate? Oh, they absolutely move through life. I mean, when I was in my sort of, yeah, early 20s, I never knew I even really wanted to be a parent. I was so focused on studying and I wanted to go traveling and explore and I had no idea that I would even become a parent or that that would completely. transformed my life. So my values at 21, completely different to my values at 31. And they're different again. And actually there's some really great values exercises that we do in acceptance and commitment therapy that I personally do every few months or sometimes just when I feel like everything's out of sorts a bit. And because you feel like you get pulled in different directions,

right? And it's really easy to do. So you kind of lay out the different areas of your life on paper. You might have, you know, health, parenting, marriage, friendships, like lifelong learning or your career education, all that kind of stuff. And you can just put in each box what really matters to you. So not what you want to happen to you, but who do you want to be? How do you want to show up in that area of your life? And in good times and bad. So, Julie, I understand you brought some props. Always. You just carry. A little bag of props with you everywhere. All right.

So this, this is why can you bring this up here. So this is perfect with regard to what we were just talking about. Yeah. Because this represents all of our lives, basically. Yeah. So when we talk about that idea of the kind of value system, that there are lots of different areas of your life that might matter to you.

And they all take time, effort and commitment to kind of keep them up. And when we talk about the stuff you put in each box, when you're writing out the values exercise, it's the kind of person you want to be and the way you want to show up. But I think we've got a junk over there, haven't we, with the time? We do. So for everyone listening, we have basically five cups. The center cup is you. And then we have another cup of new that represents new projects, new stuff in our lives. We have one cup for family, one cup four.

romantic. So all of our romance and then one cup for friends. Yeah. So five cups. So if we kind of maybe fill this one and then that could represent the fact that you only have a limited amount of capacity, a limited amount of time and energy and effort to put into the different areas of your life. And you don't have enough to fill every cup. So you can't give all of yourself to everything and actually even if you give all of yourself to one thing there's going to be nothing left for you either so when you look at the kind of the value stuff the reason it can't be a path to self-criticism

is because you have to recognise there's only a limited amount of you to go around and lots of things can matter to you at the same time so it's this balancing act of where am I needed at the moment and what matters to me most at the moment and where is my duty, where is my responsibility, and where do I want to be and that kind of thing. Okay.

So what do we do? So. Where do we get? Well, let's say, I mean, we were looking at this before. Let's say, you know, you've got a family. So that, oh, God, am I going to be able to? So let's say that, you know, that demands a certain amount of non-negotiable you. Yes.

You know, effort and time, as does your partner. Yes. And you've got this kind of new project that you want to start up, which is, you know, a new health regime or, you know, exercise and stuff. Yeah. But already, though, I have, I don't even have, do I have enough for me in that cup? Yeah.

And let's say, well, your friends are like going, we haven't seen you in months. Come out. You know, one of our friends. Oh, no, don't give any to the friends. Don't give any to the friends. You know, it's very quickly, visually, easy to see that you can't do it all perfectly all of the time. No.

And that's okay. That's not because there's anything wrong with you. you, you're human, you're same as everybody else, there's only a limited amount of effort you can give to everything. And so, but it's changeable, right? So let's say, you know, one of your friends really, really needs you. So maybe you don't go out for that family dinner this week, you go and see your friend who's really in desperate need. So we give them a bit extra this time. And then, and then actually that situation changes. And you've got some time now to focus on that new health project you're going to do.

And so, but it can't stay empty for long. So, you know, maybe next week you say, oh, I'm going to go out with my friends and your partner says, yeah, that's great, that's fine. But don't be gone long. And so, or maybe, you know, someone says, I'll take care of the kids tonight. You guys go out together. And so this whole, it's just this constantly moving kind of fluid set of values that you're, It's okay to be juggling them.

And I know we were saying earlier that that could generate so much anxiety because often it generates anxiety when you expect yourself to have every cup full all of the time. Yes. But as soon as we acknowledge that it won't be that way, then you can start playing around with balancing the amount. That's brilliant. But I noticed you did something in this, which is very intriguing to me, is you maintained the you cup. So once you've poured out from the U-Cup, you didn't continue pouring. No.

And I'd like to say I'd do that. You know, that was on purpose and I do that all the time. But in reality, we don't, right? We say, oh, we haven't got like a work thing, but let's put work into new. Let's say, like, oh, you've got a book going on. You need to be a world in a minute. And actually, but we need to focus on the kids. So let's make sure it's just work and kids for now.

It's okay to do that some of the time, isn't it, right? that for the minute there's just these couple of things that really matter. Yes. And we haven't got capacity for anything else at the moment. As long as we know that that's temporary and we will rebalance when we can. Okay. That's why I do these values exercises for myself fairly often. And sometimes it's just to recalibrate and work out, okay, where am I at?

And where do I want to be that might be different to that? Yes. You know what I love about this is it goes against this phrase that we hear all the time. and that is you cannot pour from an empty cup. And I think what that refers to is your cup. So clearly, in this example, there's nothing left in the you cup. So you're right, I can't pour from that. But I can borrow from other cups. Yeah.

And that, yeah, brilliant exercise. Yeah, yeah. And I guess sometimes that involves things like, you know, if it was the, you've put loads of, you know, effort into your relationship, but you had no me time and you've been putting loads of stuff into, you know, effort into work. it's saying, I know you really want to, you know, spend every evening together, really feel like I need some time to do something for myself or go and start exercising or whatever it might be. So sometimes it means asking for that, doesn't it?

And saying, or saying, I need to take a bit of time. But that gives me something else to bring back later on. Yes. So it's always that kind of negotiation. You're always, always back and forth, always back and forth. So now we have to talk about anxiety because this is this underlying current in everything that you mentioned. So, for example, if you don't feel like you're loving yourself enough, anxiety creeps up. You don't feel like, you know, you're entrenched enough in your values.

Anxiety creeps up. Do you think that we are more anxious as a society today than ever? I think so. Do you know what? I was talking to my mother-in-law a while back. and we were talking about, I can't remember how it came up, like stress and anxiety,

and my husband asked her how it was years ago and she said she couldn't remember anyone being stressed or maybe not having the vocabulary for it. That, you know, work was more physical and there was, you know, a finite amount. When you did it, the job, it was then done and then you would start again the next day and it would be, there wasn't this,

I don't know, I don't want to be a sort of down and out about technology, but all the things that we're supposed to make life easier have just raised our expectations for ourselves. You know, like email. God, damn, email. You used to go into an office, check the mail, and then it was done, and then you could get on with the work that you were supposed to be doing. Whereas now, you know, if you don't reply in 10 minutes, people are like,

are you okay? What are you doing? No, no. That story reminds me there was someone I was talking to who lived throughout World War II here in the UK and recalled the air raids, right, the bombing air raids and talked about how the air raids can't, you know, I would go out to the market. Air raids came. It means you go, you go somewhere else. But didn't talk about it from a sense of I had anxiety. It was like it was just something that we did. Yeah. But to your point, I wonder, did they suffer through anxiety or just not have the vocabulary? And what do you think it is?

What do you think it was and what do you think it is today? I think there was undoubtedly huge amounts of fear and terror. But yeah, A, people didn't talk about it and people didn't necessarily have the vocab to do that. And it was just too awful to talk about that time. you know, their survival was doing. You just get through it and we'll talk about it after. You know, it reminds me that moment I described, you know, when I'm getting diagnosed and my husband reaches this in my hand

and I'm like, no, let's just focus on the doing. We'll do that in a minute. And it's almost like a survival mode that you just, there isn't time for that. You just have to, when you've got lots of stuff to do to survive, you've got to focus on that first and talk about it after. But there's also, I guess, in today's, you know, world, we're just bombarded with things to feel anxious about, you know, 24-hour news. What?

All of these things that are just constantly giving us things that we apparently should be worrying about and it's all awful. If that's switched off, you know, if I want to feel better and less anxious or stressed, I switch all that stuff off for a few days and I feel so much better. yeah. I go to Jamaica. But I come. You can come. I'll tell you, bring the whole family. You will never feel better. So is it like a switch off? It's a switch off. I go there, actually. That's Portland. Yeah, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, so, um, I go there and, like, you know, the phone reception is terrible. So, amazing. Nothing in the mountains. One year, we went to Sardinia and, um, um, um, um, um, Matt's phone went out of range and it was just bliss because we couldn't accept any work calls or stuff like that.

There's something really important to be said for that switch off. So what do we do living? Because we have Wi-Fi 24-7. We're constantly being bombarded by emails, Slack messages, WhatsApp messages. How do we manage this anxiety overwhelm? I guess we've probably named the first one, which is just recognize your agency in switching it off and you use that agency as much as you possibly can. I get that some people have jobs where they have to be on it all the time or at least most of the

time. And that it's, it's recognizing the cause though. So if it's, you know, if your job requires you to be on it all the time and you're super anxious, then don't see that anxiety as a deficit in you or a weakness in you. Anxiety isn't a problem in your brain or a faulty cog somewhere. It's It's a sign, it's information, and it's information that says all is not well. We're stressed, we're overloaded, we're at capacity, all of those things. And sometimes those symptoms are not easily recognised. So you're just doing it, doing it, doing it. But you notice you've been arguing with your partner every day for the last week.

And there's this big project due in or something. you've been not sleeping well or, you know, all those things seem to funnily just combine, right? And, but they're all information that say if you're at capacity, something has to give. And sometimes that is an easy, simple answer. Like, I need to take a couple of days off or I need to, you know, go back to exercise or see my friends. And sometimes it's bigger, more difficult decisions, isn't it? lifestyle and about choices of career or it's not easy. It's it's it's it's it's not but but even to your story around addressing your your your

cancer is that what's what's worse for us is avoiding yeah these tough decisions yeah and I feel like this is what happens more and more I felt like that's how I live my life for so long is I was great with the small decisions yeah but anything that was major looming consequential. Yeah. I would say, I'm just not going

to make this decision. Yeah. And it always bites you in the ass. Yeah. Yeah. And it's that sense that I'm just delaying the decision,

but actually doing that is a choice not to act on the thing, isn't it? It's a choice in itself. Yes. And I think I went through that when I was in the NHS and I had two small children.

Every night I would be up several times in the night. You know, if you're going to have one of them's got a cough or a cold or something and I would be up in the night and I would look at the watch and it's like 5 a.m and I've got to be up in you know an hour to get everybody out the house so that I can get to work and then I got five patients to see and so I was then having a coffee between each patient because I was petrified what if I yawn in someone's face when they're telling me the you know deepest

most you know painful stories and then I go home with a migraine because I've been trying to stay awake and the big decision there was I can't do this while I have small children. I have to change something. And however much I believed in the NHS and wanted to be a part of that, while I had small children, I couldn't manage it. And I could see that there was this other option. I didn't know if it would work. It was really scary.

But I had to try. And yeah. And look where that is lady. I'll say look where that is like that. I'm busy than ever. Yeah. All right. So now we've been talking about these various components of self-love.

And now we're going to move on to finding happiness through other people, right? Right. Because, and I know you write about this, you talk about this, and you actually just talked about the, you know, around self-esteem, we're so self-centered. Yeah. So why is this, do you think, a theme that is very important to you? And I would say that this is actually different than what we hear in pop culture today. Yeah. I feel like what we hear is we must find happiness in ourselves.

Yeah. We are our own happiness. I'm going, screw everybody. I'm going to Bali. You know what I mean? I'm going to find my happiness there. Yeah, yeah. But you are saying that's not correct.

Yeah. And I've often seen online these things about how you've got to like heal your own stuff before you get into relationship and things. And I get the idea behind that. But if I'd have done that, if I'd have followed that rule, I never would have married Matt. And we would, I'd only just be about ready to get together with him and missed our whole window to have a family together. We're both humans. We're both works in progress. We do the relationship things so much better now than we used to because we've practiced and we've put the work in and we've made mistakes and then we've tried better and we've learned about ourselves and each other along the way

and that's okay that we've done that together you know we've always committed to each other while we were doing that and so I think that's okay and yeah it's like you say if you want to have a family that's you haven't got very long to work and what's healed what does does that look like? I don't know. And I'm a psychologist. Sorry. But you know what I think it gives people this impression that healed is this like, it's a perfectionism thing, isn't it? That you will be this brilliant human being. You'll be so okay with yourself. And then you'll find this other wonderful person who's already done all that same work and is already okay with themselves and behaves perfectly in a relationship, gets everything right for you and you get everything right for them. And it'll be

bliss and the relationship won't be hard. Absolute tripe. I can't, yeah, just not true at all. Is that true? The skill is to, you know, make your mistake and then learn how to repair that and recommit to your relationship and do better next time for the person. And, you know, when we talk about this sort of how life used to be and that couples would get together at, I know, 16, 17 and then, you know, still be together at the end of

their life. And I think that's really how they did it. They just committed and then they did the work side by side. Fair enough. So if you are someone watching listening and you realize that you are a work in progress, but then you're also with a partner who's clearly a work in progress. You're like, hey. It's a bit more of a work and progress.

You're like, I've got my stuff almost together. I don't know about them. Then what's your response there? What's almost the litmus test to determine if you're part? partner is far enough on their healing journey for you to be able to commit to them. I think it's whether they're able to commit to you. That's the biggest test, isn't it? Can I stop and say? Was that the right answer?

Oh, my. Good. We'll go with that. That was a mic drop. Yeah, I think, yeah. Yes. Yeah, because if they're not willing to care for you, and commit to you in the same way that you're able to do for them, then don't wait around, don't waste your time.

And I think people will behave as badly as you'll let them get away with sometimes. Yes. I love it. Yeah. I love that. I love that. So happiness and partnership, it goes hand in hand, right? And why is that?

why do we need as a human being? Why do we need others, especially for our happiness? Yeah. But I think the best thing for our own nervous system is each other and the worst. So we impact and influence each other all the time. And that's because we're social beings, right? We live in groups because we survive better in groups. And it's our ability to communicate and cooperate and look after each other, it's the reason we're here today, you know? And I say that in the book, actually, in the bit about asking for help is that the only reason we're here is because our ancestors were willing to both ask for help and to accept it when we needed it. And so we need each other more than we need anything else, I think, you know, once you've got your basic

food and water sorted out. Yes. Can you expand on that? Because that is profound, that our ancestors. That's the only reason why we're here. You say we're able to ask for help. Because no one of us could have done everything that we need to do to survive, right? And that's where it almost gets me as well with the stuff online about that pits men and women against each other, as if they're in competition. And they've never been in competition. They've always worked together to have children and help them survive and for them to have their own

children and to make communities better, make them work better. And that's when relationships do best, right? Is when you realize you're on the same team. And if you both give it everything, then you can make something really work. And yeah. Yeah. I tell you, in the 90s, I felt as if there was a long series of very destructive books that came out that really pitted the sexes against each other. To this day, I hear people quote different phrases from the book and from these different books. And I feel like you're absolutely right. I always say we're kind of like a left and right arm, but we're just, we're part of the same unit, but we have such different strengths and weaknesses. And it's really lucky that his weaknesses are my strengths and my weaknesses

are his strengths. And, you know, we've got pink and blue jobs and that's because we do what we're best at. You know, I was under high work pressure and he was, you know, doing nights with the kids. And so there was this sort of new appreciation and respect for each other that, oh, yeah, what you've been doing all this time is really tough. Absolutely. And I think that's where you move into a place of the disrespect and the contempt that happens. So this brings up, how do we, you know, if our partner is not out here selling a million books. and doesn't have gazillions of people following them on socials, how can they better appreciate the role and the responsibility that their partner has?

What do you think that we can do to almost simulate that? Yeah, I guess it depends on the situation, doesn't it? I mean, if you're able to, if it's about things like work and parenting and stuff and you're able to switch up for a while and experience what your partner experiences, then that's really valuable. It's not always possible. right? Because you can't just turn up for your partner's work. I'm going to be a lawyer today. You're sorry we go. But maybe that's more of a cognitive task or one of sitting down and listening to a partner and actually asking them what they're dealing with.

Because often what you get is, you know, they walk through the door and the bag goes down and they're off to go and play computer because they're stressed out. And all you've seen is, well, I've been disrespected here. You know, it's a sort of, um, it's a sort of, um, it's a, always taking that step back to go, what's that about? What's going on there? What are you dealing with? Tell me what, you know. And some people don't like to talk, so that's difficult again. It's not always easy, but it's sometimes just stepping back to remember that we're quite kind of egocentric.

And we really, really appreciate what we're experiencing because we're experiencing it. But we never have any idea what other people are dealing with, even the people who are closest to us. Yes. You know, my daughter comes home from school. and, you know, might not be in the best of moods. I don't know why that is. I can guess. But until I sit down and have a chat with her,

I'm going to have no idea what she's experienced that day because I've been with her. Yeah. We have to spend much more time with each other. Yeah. Much more time. I was, I was, I read this one article that showed that I think this was 1950s, 1960s that the average family was spending almost 80% of their, quote, unquote, off, non-work time together. Yeah.

Family meals. you know, different activities. Yeah. Whereas today it's below 20%. And you see it in terms of the limited time that we spent together as a family unit, but then as partners spend. And that's why I think you see this empty nest syndrome

because you have a partnership, children, they leave the home. Two partners look at each other and say, I don't even know you. Yeah. Yeah. Where do we connect? What's the, yeah. Yeah.

And then unfortunately, it's not only do I not know you, I don't even like you. Yeah, because we haven't been spending time together for the last 10 years. So, yeah, you're really irritating me now. Goodbye. I'm going to Australia. Yeah. You know, that's definitely it. All right.

So another area as it relates to connecting with others is attachment, an attachment style. And you write and talk about this a lot. How important is it? Yeah. And can we manage it? Can we change it? Yeah. So our kind of understanding around attachment styles is generally based on studies in infants and young children.

And this idea that there are certain styles of how mother and baby are attached. So you might have, you know, the ones that are often talked about a lot are anxious attachments that where a child is, you know, as soon as a mother leaves the room, the child is there. and worrying about that and following mom or avoidant attachments where a child might be slightly indifferent. So even when a mom goes and then comes back, the child won't necessarily go to greet them. And so there are lots of kind of signals

to sort of general attachment styles in infants. But we know from research that those styles of interacting with caregivers or important people in our lives continue. into adulthood, right? Because those early relationships form a template for what to expect from other people, how to interact with other people. And so we just kind of use those into adulthood. They don't disappear. And that can really impact on the relationships that you fall into. And often people will say, I feel like I keep having the same relationship over and over again with different people. And sometimes that can be to do with attachment styles. So,

if someone has an anxious attachment and they keep sort of finding themselves in relationship with someone who has an avoidant attachment, then that can be really tricky because they can be constantly sort of needing reassurance or needing expressions of love, whereas the other person who has an avoidant attachment might find that sort of intimacy really difficult and withdraw from it. And so one person is chasing the other, they're trying to get away. And it's not that the avoidant person doesn't love them, it's that they struggle with that intimacy. And so their sort of withdrawal is seen as a threat to the person who constantly leads that reassurance.

So you can see how that could lead to all sorts of problems. And sometimes it often it leads to the anxious attachment person ending the relationship because it's just too distressing for them. And then that's again really painful because the avoidant attachment person's had a rejection and yeah it's um but i agree with you that they they are changeable and adaptable i would say natural tendencies don't disappear but you override stuff with learning like anything else um and i definitely have as an adult i would say i'm quite an avoidant type uh but that's a very kind of um

secure attachment tight, so he's leveled me out. And I've, you know, but it takes work and effort and awareness of what you're doing and the impact that what you're doing has on your partner. Okay. Because neither the avoidant or the anxious is ideal. What we're aiming for is somewhere in the middle, that secure attachment. Yes. Yeah.

Yeah. So is there a quick way for everyone to determine. where they fit, say, within the three. I think you can go online and there are little questionnaires and things that ask a few questions. And even just going through those questions, it gets pretty obvious quite quickly which one you feel like you are. You know, if you're constantly needing reassurance or expressions of love or to know where your partner is all the time and you're, you know, very sensitive to any signs of rejection or abandonment, those kind of thing, that can really kind of, that's

generally that anxious style, whereas avoidant is that kind of struggle with the intimacy or that tendency to withdraw or struggle to commit or those kind of things. And it doesn't, like I said before, it doesn't mean that you don't want or need the love. It's just that difficulty in expressing it in that moment or having that express to you. Feel really vulnerable. Okay. And then if you are secure, what are some of those standard behaviors? So a secure would be, you'd be much, you'd be much calmer about, than the anxious person, about your partner not being there or not responding to messages or doing their own thing

or spending time with their friends or, you know, all the things that might trigger off a reaction for someone who was anxiously attached would be easier to deal with. But equally, you wouldn't necessarily be afraid of intimacy. You would want that with your partner, of course. And so you wouldn't necessarily withdraw if that person was approaching you for love and connection. Okay. Yeah. Okay.

And if you are anxious or avoidant, what's the number one thing you can do to become secure in your attachment? Rather than it being one thing, I would say it's a process of work. I would say educate yourself if it's of interest educate yourself in detail about the different styles and look at because there are signs and symptoms

all these things but they're different for everyone and everyone's in different relationships so it'll pop up in different ways for every person and you'll consider certain things to be and your partner will consider certain things to be more of a problem than others

so it's working out in your relationship what is the problem behaviour that you're contributing to? And what fear is that that's causing that behaviour? And then you can start to unravel it and look at even, you know, essentially it comes down to communicating with your partner and saying, I know I'm this way and I know I'm doing these things that drive you crazy. I think it's because of this and I'm going to do my, and here's what I'm going to try and do.

Here's how you could help me to do that. Yes. And so inevitably means both partners kind of working together on it to aim for somewhere in the middle. And yeah. All right. Done. Done. I have one last topic.

And that is around arguing in conflict with your partner. Yeah. Okay. Because even what you just said there about attachment, I think is interesting. You're saying, okay, identify these things, have a conversation with your partner. Here's what I'm doing. How can we correct this, et cetera? but I feel as if there is a reluctance to bring issues up.

There is this thought that our relationship is stronger if we just don't have any conflict. And I think that's a massive myth. Yeah. You know? Yeah. So what is your advice on how do we manage conflict? It could be with a romantic partner or maybe it's a professional partner, etc. How do we most effectively manage conflict?

Yeah. I think for me the most, the biggest game changer for me was when I realized that whoever I was arguing with, winning was not the best case scenario always. So if I'm in a relationship with someone, whether it's my husband, my child, my sister, my parent, I want to have a future relationship. with this person. Therefore, winning is not the best case scenario because why would you want a victory over someone that you want to have a partnership with? It's the whole idea that you're on the same team again, isn't it? The only person who thinks you look good in victory is you. And actually, if you're, you know, pretty nasty to your partner, because you want to, prove that you were right and they were wrong, then all they remember from that scenario is how

nasty you were willing to be, to be right. So, you know, you can have an argument and then take your time away from each other to calm down and then come back and repair any damage that you've done. But yeah, for me, I think recognizing that that you must look at the relationship you have with someone and the kind of future you want with someone to work out how best to argue with them. That's fair. Yeah. It's fair.

And it seems as if that underlying theme is we are a team. Yeah. Right. So we're going to win together or we're going to lose together. Yeah. Yeah. And I think something you learn as you sort of work for your relationship and you get older is that you're not doing. it perfectly and you're going to mess up and that doesn't mean the end of your relationship.

That means you, you know, experience the pain of that and then you work out how to do better next time. Whereas I think early on in relationships there's this sense of if you have a big blow up about something, you really disagree about something that how can you possibly come back together again? How can you possibly move through that? And I think there's a maturity that comes with realising. you can.

Yes. And yeah, I think you play around with methods of it too, don't you? I think a lot of the times, you know, if Matt and I disagree about something

or we start bickering about something, and then one of us would make a joke, you'd make a joke of it. Or we know each other so well now that we're sort of always, you know, you know what the other person's reaction is going to be, so you do a little mock of it.

And then you can both laugh again and you realize you're both being ridiculous. Yes. And that this is silly and it doesn't matter. Yes. And, but you, I think you have to go through those sort of painful

first early years. of working it all out, how you're going to do that, and how you're going to repair and reconnect? You sure do. You sure do. This has been really good in terms of the self-love piece that we talked about earlier. And then as well as, okay, how do we then,

in a healthy way, partner with someone? Yeah. You have had some incredible conversations. I know you have, patients, friends, family members. When you think about the most memorable, who was it with? What did you talk about? And what was the lesson?

Oh, gosh. Yeah, I've got a few of those. I worked with someone in the past, several people who, you know, had not left the house in years. And when I started working with them, I'm thinking, how am I going to, you know, fresh out of clinical training, this is massive. How do I help this person?

And it just felt too extreme, too severe, too awful. And I guess it goes with a lot of the conversations where in that work, you learn about people's lives. And you're thinking, if this was a movie, I wouldn't think it was true. How can people endure this sort of thing and come out the other side? And who am I to think I can offer anything? And then you start doing the work and building relationship with someone. And I was working this guy that hadn't been outside

and had dreams of really simple dreams, so wanted to be able to just go down to the local pub and sit with a friend. it felt a million miles away. I did not know how we were going to get there. And we just broke it down. And there was this conversation where I didn't do that. That person did that. And I just guided and allowed him to do the work.

And in some ways that, sticks with me because it felt impossible when I felt like I have to fix this and I have to make all this go away and I can't. And I realize he totally has the ability to do this. Like it's Everest, but we're going to do it. And it took several years, but we got to places that you can't imagine would be achievable for someone when you look at the beginning part. And so yeah, maybe that's quite a personal one that's maybe not that relevant to other people, but this idea that things often seem impossible when we think it's all on me and I've got to do it all and I've got to come up with all the answers and I totally don't have them yet. And maybe it goes back to the stuff about working together, you know, that it comes around and when you work together and you appreciate each other for the different strengths that you have and you allow something. someone to just start taking steps forward, they do.

And it's quite incredible. It's difficult to kind of describe without, you know, breaching confidentiality and stuff like that. But yeah, I imagine that lots of my old clients think I don't remember them. And I think of all of them at different times and wonder how they're doing. And I wish I would pass them in the street and see them doing well, you know? Yes. Yeah, what an incredible job I've had the privilege of doing working with people through some of the hardest moments of their life.

And probably the hardest part of that job is then not being able to see them doing well later on. Yeah. I think the beauty, though, is that you continue to think about them. And that seems to be your through line. I thought it was going to be around curiosity. You know, when I did my research on you, I was like, yeah, she looks like she's one of the most curious people I've ever seen. But I would say you're one of the most empathetic and sympathetic, given everything. And that is what makes your videos and your writing and your work so incredible.

Thank you. So, Dr. Julie Smith, it's so nice to meet you. Thank you for having me. It has been an honor. It has been an honor. What incredible person, Dr. Julie Smith, is. And can I say her book Open When is incredible. I strongly encourage you to read it.

Now, like always, I have several takeaways from this conversation. The first is that anxiety isn't a flaw or weakness. It's a signal. It's your mind and body telling you something is off. You're stressed, overloaded, or at capacity. Recognizing this is the first step. Instead of fighting anxiety, listen to it. Reflect on patterns like poor sleep,

increased conflict or a constant sense of overwhelm. These aren't just symptoms. Their messages urging you to recalibrate. In a world of constant pings and notifications, reclaim your personal agency. You have the power to set boundaries, whether it's taking a day off, exercising, or reconnecting with loved ones.

Anxiety is not the problem. Ignoring its signals is. The second takeaway is that Dr. Julie Smith reminds us that commitment is the ultimate measure of readiness in a relationship. If your partner isn't willing or able to care for you and match your level of commitment, don't wait around hoping they'll change. Taking each other for granted can breed contempt and erode connection. Remember, people will often treat you as poorly as you allow.

Honor your worth and seek a partnership built on mutual dedication, respect, and care. And last, but surely not least, number three, takeaway. Clarity in your values transforms how you handle criticism. When you deeply understand what truly matters to you, the opinions of others no longer hold the same weight. Your values become your anchor, guiding your decisions and allowing you to move through life with conviction. As Dr. Julie Smith wisely said, once you have your values, it becomes so much easier to deal with disapproval from outside. When you live in alignment with your core beliefs, external judgment cannot shake your inner strength.

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