We Need To Talk with Paul C. Brunson - Dr Terry Dubrow on Botched, Ozempic And Plastic Surgery “They Put Concrete In Her Face!”

Episode Date: September 8, 2026

Star of Botched and The Swan, Dr Terry Dubrow became one of reality TV’s most recognisable surgeons, but this conversation reveals what was really happening behind the shows that made him famous.  Terry looks back at the shows that made him famous, from the backlash surrounding The Swan and Bridalplasty to why he initially thought Botched was a terrible idea. He reflects on what producers pushed for behind the scenes, the moments he refused to cross a line with patients, and why surgical training can create the confidence - and “God complex” - needed to make life-or-death decisions. He also confronts the darker side of cosmetic surgery, from dangerous BBLs and medical tourism to the rise of “looksmaxxing”. Terry revisits the patient no surgeon would touch after concrete-like material was injected into her face, and the operation he created after 11 other surgeons had refused to help her. He also explores how Ozempic, GLP-1s and rapid weight loss are changing the face of cosmetic medicine. Away from surgery, Terry opens up about fame, family, staying strong at 67, and the extraordinary story of forging Heather Dubrow’s signature to get her onto The Real Housewives of Orange County. Funny, provocative and unexpectedly personal, this is Dr Terry Dubrow beyond Botched. Dr Terry Dubrow, We Need To Talk   Follow us here: https://www.instagram.com/needtotalk   https://www.tiktok.com/@weneedtotalkpod   Sign up to our newsletter https://linkly.link/2eXHX Follow Dr Terry here: https://www.instagram.com/drdubrow (00:00) Intro (02:20) Paul And Dr Terry Discuss PK (04:24) How Dr Terry Stays Fit At 67 (09:03) Why Dr Terry Became a Cosmetic Surgeon (16:07) Dr Terry on The Swan and Its Controversy (24:46) Why The Swan Was Cancelled (27:02) Inside The Controversial Bridalplasty TV Show (36:06) Anthropic Ad (37:27) How Dr Terry Joined Real Housewives (41:59) How Botched Became A Hit (46:53) The Patient No Surgeon Would Touch (51:49) Rajee's Message To Dr Terry (56:50) Why BBLs Can Be Deadly (01:01:19) The Dangers Of Medical Tourism (01:04:33) Dr Terry Gives Paul Breast Implants (01:07:36) How Beauty Trends Change Surgery (01:12:12) Dr Terry On GLP-1 Weight Loss Drugs (01:24:27) Why Looksmaxxing Is Dangerous (01:30:39) Inside Dr Terry's Marriage (01:33:18) What Fatherhood Taught Dr Terry (01:37:32) Dr Terry Reads Heather's Letter (01:41:11) Dr Terry's Most Memorable Conversation (01:43:21) Paul's Biggest Takeaways Sponsored by: Anthropic - https://www.claude.ai/talk  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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Why is Orange County? She goes, I'm never doing that cheesy housewife show ever. So I apply for her and I don't tell her. I sign it and I fax it back. Really? Yeah. So you forged her signature? Totally. This is so scandalous. You were either drunk or stupid or both for doing that. Please welcome Dr. Debrough. I got a TV show. The worst reality show of all time. A team of cosmetic and plastic surgeons will turn these 17 ugly ducklings into drop dead beauties. Joy Behar turned. turns to the camera goes, and Dr. Debrough, you should be ashamed of yourself. And I went, oh, I guess I always felt, this is really wrong, I'm just gonna say it. We have to talk about this case. That's my most significant case. Really? Ever.

This woman was injected with literal concrete from a hardware store as filler. She says to me, I can't go anywhere. Kids see me and immediately scream, point. Wow. I would imagine the work that you do. It then changes her life. I have to ask the looks maxing,

GLP-1s, and OZMPICP-P. I'm being honest now. We released our very first episode of we need to talk two years ago today. I wanted to create a space for honest conversations and hear the experiences that have shaped them and the stories we don't always get to hear behind the headlines. Hundreds of conversations and millions of you later, that's exactly what we're trying to do.

So thank you for being here. Thank you for showing up every week, for sharing these conversations with your friends, for being part of this community. And trust me, I read every single one of your comments, so thank you for them. And if you love what we're doing here, please hit follow. It's completely free, and it genuinely makes a huge difference to the show, and it helps us reach even more people. And as always, let me know what you think in the comments. Nothing's off limits.

Okay. I mean, when you're a husband on the real housewives, It's all been exposed. Oh my gosh. You know, talking about that, we had PK. Oh. We had PK on. I saw that.

Yes. By the way, I saw him at the Peninsula Hotel. Okay. I saw that whole episode. I saw him at the Peninsula Hotel and I walked up to him. And I know him a bit from the Bravo world. And I said, hey, you did a great job. Wow.

I want to say congratulations because a typical guy in that position would have gone a different direction. And he was a gentleman and he was authentic and honest and, you know, he should be upset and pissy saying and doing these things and making these claims. He didn't go there at all. That was a wonderful interview he did with him. Yeah, he didn't. I thought he did.

He was very mature. He was. He did himself as solid. Yes. Because any other husband would have used that as sort of a way to, get their point of view out there. Because, you know, she's saying certain things. I don't really follow

Housewise very closely, but he took the high road. Yes, he should. Beautifully. He did. And you let him take the high road. It's funny because at one point I was wondering, is he going to go? Because you could have easily gone, you know, just a little I mean, but what about the fact that, you know, you weren't

paying the mortgage and foreclosure? You didn't go there. You left it open, but you saw that he wasn't going to go there. No, I like to present topics and allow the guests to go. And on that, can I present a topic that I am willing to bet you did not think we would talk about? Oh, good.

And this is actually where I want to start. And I'm not gassing you up. This is the truth. Okay. Is, you know what, you are in incredible shape. Yes. I'm not like you walked in. Yes.

Yeah, I am. You are, when you walked in, I thought, oh my God. You could tell even in this thing, huh? I can see the pecks going, the biceps. It's a thing. It's a thing. Tell me about this, because you are, I don't believe it.

67. You're 67. Yeah. So I'm in incredible shape because of what's called longevity, escape velocity. Have you ever heard of this? No. This is the principle that goes along with this whole artificial intelligence

and how it's going to affect our worlds. Okay. And the principle is this. If you're able to maintain yourself, okay, once artificial intelligence solves medicine, solves biology, solves longevity, we're going to be able to do things that we never had access before

that will allow us to live a lot longer. Okay. And so longevity escape velocity refers to this principle that for every year you're alive, you get to live, another three years because of this solving of longevity that's about to happen. Interesting. Very interesting.

Yeah. And I can give you lots of examples that I think are fascinating in this regard and where we're going with this when we do talk about AI. Okay. But so towards that end, I think when you hit about 60 years of age, I'm 67, there's kind of this automatic frailty gene that kicks in in humans. that you go from being whatever you are to suddenly a lot more frail. And maybe it's 63 and some people, maybe it's 64.

And it's inevitable unless you do the work. Okay. And when, Dr. Terry, when you're talking about you become more frail, is it literally what? Is it bone mass shrinks? Yes. Okay. Sarcopenia, it's loss of muscle. It's potentially dementia.

It's just, you know, the telomere shortening on your chromosomes, those ends of your chromosomes that are responsible for the reparative processes, okay? They get shorter and shorter and shorter. When you lose your tear telomeres, you lose the ability to fix those processes that normally, you know, the electrons and the oxygen-free radicals that are damaging your body. Yes. When you're young, you just go, you fix them. As you get older, those telomeres start to go away and you have no reparative ability.

Okay. And when you lose the repairability, all of a sudden, you're much more susceptible to cancer, dementia, metabolic disorders like diabetes, and just generalized aging. The only way to combat that is to do resistance training, max your protein, minimize your body fat, do at least 150, ideally 250 minutes a week of Zone 2 cardio. Oh, wow. So you're doing all of this? All of it.

I it is my job every single day I day days off or not a thing youth is wasted on the young I mean when you know when you if exercise is wasted when you're young you want to exercise because you want to look attractive right is it true exercise when you're older is if you want to live are there advantages to beginning those habits when you're in your 20s 30s okay yes because you know, if you're always in shape, it's a lot easier to stay in shape. And there is a sort of a base you get. It's like when you're a runner, okay? When you're a runner, you try to create this base. I run 35 miles a week, right? And that allows me to get a sort of a, enough of a cardio base that I can be a marathon runner. You can't just decide two weeks before you have to

create this base. Longevity requires the same base. If you can work out your whole life, you get a lot of bank, right? Okay. And so the more bank that you accumulate in longevity, the easier it is to stay in shape and the longer, stay in shape, the longer you get to live. Thank you. You've inspired me. Yeah.

I'm going to the gym tomorrow. I tell my friends, you're a lot younger, me, but I tell my friends who are over 55, 60, I go, what did you do today? Oh, you, you shortened your life today. If you didn't move your body every single day, right, you're essentially renting this thing. And if you don't pay rent, if you don't take care of it, you're going to be evicted. Wow.

I hear it. I hear it. I would imagine that these concepts, you became aware of these because of your medical background. Definitely. What led you on to that path, that the medical, even the cosmetic journey? What was the inspiration for you? So when I went to medical school, I went to UCLA Medical School. I went to the Yale New Haven emergency room.

Okay. And I volunteered in the emergency room. The minute I got in there, I saw these incredibly blub, bright residents who seemed to be brilliant and commanding of the human body and confident. And I loved the smell of the hospital. So I got turned on by medicine. And because of this personality, I got into UCLA Medical School. I went to UCLA Medical School. nominal school.

Great school. And the day I walked in, they go, surgeon. I said, really? They go, oh, you're such a surgeon. Because I guess the outgoing personality, wanting to problem solve, the fast thinker, kind of, you know, I'm kind of brave and I don't give an S, you know. But now, can I ask you this, too, is because I've often heard that people say that the best surgeons have a God complex. Yes. So how do you, how do you define, you define a God complex?

And do you agree with that? Well, do I want to admit to having a God complex? Gotcha. Yeah, gotcha. Well, I'm not sure. Yeah, I think the classic training to become a surgeon teaches you to have a God complex. It's probably reinforced, right? Yeah.

Because you want to be incredibly confident. And when you think about it, it kind of is a superpower. It's the ability to take a person who's potentially dying from, say, a traumatic injury, a gunshot wound of the heart, and have the confidence and lack of fear to spray their chest with antiseptic in the emergency room, take a scalpel between their seventh and eighth rib, put rib spreaders in, open their heart in front of, open their chest in front of everybody, find the hole in the heart and sew it up right there. And you have about 45 seconds to do that. And you have to put the stitch in perfectly, otherwise you're going to rip a hole in the heart and make it all worse and they're going to expire. So you're taught to be the man.

You're taught to go for it. And there is kind of, you know, we're the best. doctor here is a loser except for the surgeon. So that's reinforced. So there is a little bit of that. Yeah. And I will tell you too personally is I want my surgeon to have a guy complex. Yes. I mean, I remember having this conversation. Unfortunately, it was with a family member who was getting ready to go into surgery. Yes. Saying, I want my surgeon to be incredibly confident. Yes. Incredibly confident. Yeah. Well, surgical training, because you do so much of it, you know, there's that, 10,000 hours thing.

Yes. To master something, you need to spend 10,000 hours. In my era of surgical training, we were on call, awake, in the hospital for 48 to 50 hours straight. You go home and sleep for six hours and you do it again for seven years. So we would get 10,000 hours of active training within months. So by the time you're a second, third, fourth, fifth year resident, and your hands are on fire.

You can operate with your eyes closed. All you see, it's just an afterthought. Yes. And you get really proficient, really good, really confident. And you do it so much that all of those sort of, I'm actually cutting open a person. And when you think about what we're actually doing, this is life or death, that is not part of it.

It's like a sushi chef, cutting open beautifully. a piece of raw fish. It's about that much emotion to it. Look how, oh, this is awesome, you know. What was it about cosmetic surgery that, you know, that compelled you? So I wanted to be a cardiac surgeon. And I thought, what's the coolest, most hair on fire thing to do? And it's heart surgery.

So I was going to start doing research in UCLA in my second year in heart surgery when this doctor walked in. And twice a week, a doctor from a different specialty would walk in to the classroom. The first two years are his classroom work. And the second two years is clinical work. And he says, he lived about six, four. He looked like Mel Gibson. He was wearing cowboy boots, long hair, blue eyes. And he walks and he goes, turn down the lights. He turned down the lights. And he started showing slides of plastic and reconstructive surgery. And he started with, with burns and cleft lips and cleft palettes and cancer reconstruction and showing these pictures of people having half their face removed and then looking normal afterwards or people losing

their thumbs and you put it back on under the microscope. These are all things that plastic and reconstructive surgeons do. And then 20% of what he showed was just straight up cosmetic surgery. So he turns on the lights at the end of the lecture, the one I have. hour lecture. And, you know, all 125 us UCLA medical students look to each other and goes, whoa. And he goes, ladies and gentlemen, that is plastic and reconstructive surgery. And he gets a really deep voice. He goes, the last true Renaissance field of medicine. And I thought, whoa. And I chills. He walked out. I went down. He's walking down the hall. And I said, Dr. Lessevoy.

I said, do you do research? Because that's the key. If you want to be high-end, you want to be a good applicant in a specialty, do research in that specialty. He goes, come, I'm going to my lab right now. I walked right to his lab within a couple of weeks. I was full-time at work in his lab and doing medical school. And I ended up running his lab and published 28 papers for him. Wow, look at that. Yeah. And I went from being a guy who wanted to go to cardiac surgery to that's it. It just happened. It just happened. Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting. They say you end up going into what your mentor does. So had he been a urologist, I'd probably be a urologist. Right. Truthfully. Right. But you became. I became a plastic surgeon because of that mentor. Because of him. And so then you eventually, you opened up your own practice in Beverly Hills.

But I had something very unusual happened to me that allowed me to become a very big plastic surgeon within three years. Okay. I got a TV show. Yes. I remember, and I know what this one. Do you know what the show is? This must be the swan.

The swan. I remember the swan. I remember it. Craziest TV show. I mean, can we talk about this one? Because at the, well, one is, how would you describe the swan? The worst reality show of all time.

No, how would I describe it? I mean, you would never do the swan today because it sort of is the wrong messaging relative today's social cultural norms, okay? Right. The Swan was a show where we took 12 ugly ducklings. You would never identify women as ugly ducklings, right? Oh, essentially, it was only women. Yes, ugly ducklings.

And we brought them into an environment where we were going to do head to toe. transformational surgery and turn them into the ultimate swans. To make it more palatable, we added a psychologist, a trainer, a dentist, so that ideally they would have an internal and external transformation. So it didn't just look like, you're not worth anything unless you're pretty, which is a really bad message. Yes. Right?

Yes. And so, but on its face, that makes sense. Let's fix them on the inside, fix them on the outside, and allow them to be the best person they can be. Right. And so what made the show very unique is that they all moved into an apartment complex together, undergoing the swan transformation with head to toe surgery, training, therapy, and life coaching. But they wouldn't get to see themselves for three months. That's right.

Remember that? That was because there was an unveiling. unveiling. At the end, yes. Yes. Also, part of that process was, and this is another dicey part of the show that you would never do today, there was a competitive aspect. So every week after their transformation, they would go up against another swan.

And whoever made the bigger transformation got to stay on the show to ultimately compete in the final beauty challenge to determine the ultimate swan. So here you are, you're transformed, but not enough. So you're rejected. Wow. Yeah. And then you get to go on to a beauty contest, and it was extraordinarily controversial. Yes. But you know, well watched. I remember looking at the statistics. There's over 9 million people watching. Yeah. The show. And I would imagine that that was the show that, where you became a celebrity. Or a public figure. Public figure. Yes.

Okay. Right, because I'm not really a celebrity. I'm more of a person who speaks about health, wealth, and beauty. By the way, if anyone ever asks me, do I like being a celebrity, whatever that means? I love it. I'm obsessed with it. It's the best. People are, when you're a low-level celebrity like me, people are extraordinarily nice to you.

And they come up to you and talk. I mean, I'm not Leonardo Caprio, okay, so where people are and nobody's bothering him. They come up. They're so friendly. I love you. I love your wife. know is on the housewives. Yes.

It's like being the high school quarterback. And you had a good game and you're walking down the hall and the locker rooms. Lockers are there. And everybody's going, hey, Terry, hey, Terry. That's the life of being a low-level reality person. Well, I think it's relative because I will say this. She's watching. She will be very embarrassed.

But my wife absolutely loves you. Oh, I appreciate that. And you are, to her, you're at the top of the tunnel pole. Oh, not not the bottom. bottom of the tonal, you know what I mean? So I think it's very relative. But what I know that she does admire about you is the work that you do.

Yes. That's really what I think it's botched. That's what really put me on the map, yeah. Yes. I mean, she's just very impressed with the work that you do. I appreciate that. But on the Swan, though, I have to ask, though, is very controversial show.

But we're talking many years ago. So what is this? 2003 and four. 2003 and four. So it was a different time, different day and age. Is that a show that are you, do you regret being on the show? Or do you not? I don't regret it because at the time, first of all, when I first got on the show,

they didn't tell us, hey, there's going to be a beauty pageant. And we're going to identify them as ugly ducklings. And we're going to criticize them as the process goes along if they're not trying hard enough. And was there a little bit of a meanness to the show? Maybe. You know, they come on and they said, hey, how'd you like to do a plastic surgery and a reality show? And I said, okay. But it was interesting because I remember we had shot the show and we could talk as much detail about the show as you want. But because it's the 20th anniversary.

But we shot the show and then, you know, they're in production and editing and you forget about it. You go back to your regular life. And I'm sitting there watching American Idol. which at that time had, what, 70 million viewers? Yeah, it was next level, crazy. It was a Super Bowl every week. Yes. Okay.

So I'm sitting there with my wife watching American Idol, and we knew we were going to get an American Idol lead in, which means numbers go up. Numbers go up. And it's American Isle comes to a commercial. All of a sudden, they start showing these fast-paced images of surgery

and of operating scenes and patients in bandages. and then it goes, it stops on me sitting in a chair like this, and I say, it's a scalpel, not a magic wand. Doom, the swan. And I went, whoa. And that, the next day, everybody knew who I was. Just like that. Just like that.

Overnight. And the show came out. I remember after the first episode, my wife wanted to go to San Francisco for some reason. We fly over to San Francisco. We walk into this busy restaurant. and the hostess sees me. There's this long line. She goes, oh my gosh.

And she goes, come up here. Got immediately seated at a table. And I went, oh, this is what it's like to be a celebrity. Oh, this is good. This is good. Yeah. And truly, how did that feel? Because that's a feeling that many people aspire to get to aspire to, aspire to have.

But how does that feel to overnight go from not being recognized at, the restaurant to now you're getting the best table in the restaurant. It felt amazing and I loved it, but I will tell you, it kind of ruined the other cast members. They took it to mean that they were extra special, I think. And some of them had some difficulties in their career because they were sort of famous overnight. For me, I was married. I have this face for radio. I mean, I'm very proud of what I can do surgically.

I do feel I have a superpower for sure. But other than that, am I more special than anybody else? I am not. Maybe I'm slightly more amusing than most people I know. So it didn't really affect me. It didn't make me feel like I'm special or I should be treated in any special way. In a way, it made me just nicer. I'm always been super nice anyway, but I'm even more grateful.

It just pushed a gratitude button in me where it's like, wow, I'm so lucky. I'm the luckiest guy in the world. And I also realize I'm a bit of a Buddhist. I also realize if you want to be successful, feel lucky, feel grateful. You'll get rewarded for that behavior in life. I always felt that. And so it made me more humble in a weird way. But I do, but I'm very, very honest.

I mean, people say, do like it. I go, I love it. Yeah. I love all that comes with it. Yeah, I think that's an answer that you don't often hear. Right. But I appreciate that because, yeah, I think that there's some great, great benefits. Oh, there are.

Yeah, that you receive. But now on the Swan, just one more question for me on this is that were you shot that it was canceled? given because it was it was controversial but yet it was highly rated okay I wasn't I wasn't I can tell I remember the moment it got canceled we had been approved for the third season okay we did two seasons both successful

we're casting the third season and because of reality TV was really pushing the envelope at the time we were going to do some crazy casting we were going to have triplets and because there's two surgeons I was going to operate on two. He was going to operate on one. And we were going to see how different they looked,

which is kind of messed up, isn't it? That's, yeah, it is. Yeah, and so they were starting to go. And then what happened was the president of Fox at the time got fired, and a new president took over. I remember his name, Peter Legory. He came from FX. And one of his first things he did.

did was get rid of that terrible show, the Swan. He just canceled it, right in the middle of casting. Wow. Yeah. I remember because it was 10 o'clock at night, I'm looking at all these VHS tapes of all these patients deciding who we should operate on, who we shouldn't. And then one of the productions assistants came out from the executive offices and said, you can go home now. I go, what do you mean? I'm not done. No, near, you're, you can go home now. And you know, it was the Hollywood no that never comes. They didn't tell you got canceled. Right. But was it on pause? By the way, they use that word pause now. Really, then it wasn't possible?

There was no such thing as pause. But they said, well, I think we have some budget issues we need to get past. Because when you look at reality TV at the time, it was getting very smarmy. You know, who's your daddy? Yes. You know, guys, judges getting there with a laser pointer identifying deficiencies in women's bodies on stage in a bikini. it was going the wrong direction. Why do you then think that, and I'm with you, yeah, I'm totally with you,

the next project, television project at least that you do, is it botched? No, I did arguably a worse one. Oh, did you? Yes. Oh, gosh, do I know about this one? What is this one? It was called bridalplasty. Bridalplasty.

Okay, tell me about this. So, okay, we took 10. affianced, engaged females, okay, moving them into a house, and each week they competed in wedding-related challenges. For example, who could do a floral arrangement the best? Whoever won that week, they'd bring some Beverly Hills florist to judge,

oh, that's the best floral arrangement. Okay, you won. She then got to have the plastic surgery procedure of her choice from me, okay? but here's the thing. There's always a thing in reality TV, okay? If you lost, if you were last place in the wedding-related challenge, the host would say she'd kick you off the show

without your plastic surgery of your choice and say, you're still going to get married, it's just not going to be fabulous. And then in the final competition, whoever won, get to have a head-to-to-to-to-makeover, But here's the catch. They were going to throw you a big wedding in a veil, but your fiancé wasn't going to see you until the day of your wedding and be revealed to you to say, I do. Wow. I see it.

That's problem. That could be an issue. That could be an issue. Yes. Do you know, how do you reconcile that? Because you know what's interesting is this is this is where I have. sympathy and empathy because

I've been part of a number of reality TV formats that many consider to be outlandish but the work that I do I pride myself on the work that I do right very proud and I stand you know ten toes

down right on my work I know you do the same so how do you reconcile And this is, you could even coach me on this, is how do you recognize how do you recognize how being a part of this format that is bizarre? My excuse. Okay. My explanation is that going in, they don't necessarily share with the surgeon, the format, very much. You don't really know how the show is going to play out, particularly the first season because they don't know.

True. They're figuring out. They're figuring out. So all you have to do is show up and be a great. physician and a good surgeon and be honest and make sure. And I tell them, the first thing I tell these reality TV participants is, okay, there are cameras here. Forget the cameras. This is you and me, all right? Dr. Patient, we're family in this. I go, anything you don't like, you tell me, I will stop it. And you don't do anything that you wouldn't normally do if you were in my Beverly Hills office.

Okay. So I just lay down the ground. And so I just put. practice, I'm not influenced in any way, shape, or form by the production. Like on the Swan, they wanted you to push the envelope. Do more, do more. No, no, no, no. What do you want to do, I would say to the patient? Of course, the showrunners say, do it all. Take more off your lids.

Take that nose. What about that nose? Wow. And did some of them do it? Does some of them go? Like, what would you say the most shocking transformation you saw? on the swan. There was one, I didn't do her. There was one who the surgeon referred to as total facial rearrangement, like taking the furniture in your house and just completely

rearranging it so that when she came out and was unveiled, as far as I was concerned, completely unrecognizable to the point where I'm not sure her kids would know who she was. Yeah, so I don't do that kind of, and I would never do that. There was one person on the second seat of the swan that had a nose that wasn't maybe aesthetically as ideal as others might think it should be. Okay. She didn't want her nose done. The producers were very unhappy about that because that was going to be one of her major

transformations. And truthfully, had they known she was not going to elect to do her nose, they wouldn't put her on the show. But she was doing a lot of other things. And she says to me, I don't really want to change my ethnicity. I go, don't. And she goes, well, I'm worried. I go, no, no, no, no, no.

I don't care. You're on the show. I'll operate on you. Let's only do the things you want to do. They were a bit upset with me. And they wanted to push me to push her. There's no pushing plastic surgery. This is as serious as a heart attack.

So we didn't do her nose. They kicked her off the show, of course. Well, she lost in the transformation competition because she didn't do her nose. And I thought, okay, whatever, man. So I just stick to what I do. Yep. And that's how I remember, though, after the first season, it was so controversial that they invite us to go on Dr. Phil.

And I, you know, I thought it was going to be a grilling by Dr. Phil. But once Dr. Phil met me and talked to me before we went out, he changed everything and he wasn't going to go in attack mode. But I remember when I did bridaloplasty. Bridalplasty came out and watching The View. and, you know, the show was done. Three months later, it comes out. I've already forgotten about it. The first episode comes out.

And I'm watching The View, and it's Joy Behar and Barbara Walters, maybe Whoopey and somebody, conservative person. Right. And have you seen this show, bridalplasty? And I'm watching in my office about to, I mean, my surgery center about to go to the next case. Joy Behar turns to the camera, goes, and Dr. DeBro, you. should be ashamed of yourself. And I went, oh, and my nurse walks and she goes,

what, I go, oh, this is not good. This is not good. And literally, ring, the phone rings, and it's the producers, you're going to New York. You're going to be on the view. I go, no, I'm not. And they go, yes,

you are. So I thought, well, what am I going to do? Just let them trash me over the next five weeks or eight weeks. So I got on a plane and went to New York. Did you? Oh my gosh. I have to pull the footage from that. How did that go? So I went up the service elevator. And the producer with, you know, the day producer with the clipboards looking to me and go, so do you kind of feel like you're going to, you know, an act, you know, a trial, a trial by fire and I go, I don't know, should I?

She thinks she goes like this. Well, I would. And I would. So what happened was I went into makeup. Okay. And I walk in to do for them to judge me. And Joy Behar, Elizabeth Hasselbeck. Okay. Okay. Yes.

That's the concerned one. Yes. And Barbara were there. Yes. And I walk in and they go, whoa. And I said, hi guys. And then I just sort of, I had about. 20 minutes and they were talking to me

and I charmed them. Wow. I charmed him. There was a TV show on HBO about vampires and the vampires would glam you. Yes, glammed you. Remember this? True blood? True blood, yes. That show was on at the time. Okay. I glammed them.

So when you went out? They were so nice to me. Oh my goodness. You know Terry. I go, yeah, I know. I tell you, the fact that you glammed them. I glammed them. Yeah, because Joy is a tough cookie. Barbara Walters, tough. You know, yeah.

She was not going to be that negative. She was going to open it up to allow them to attack me because that's more of her as a reporter, a neutral position kind of person. Yes. But Joy was really going to go after me. And Elizabeth comes down and she goes, I love plastic surgery. And she was like, I'm your biggest fan. I went, I love the swan too.

And that's how she started. I went, oh, this is going pretty well. And Joy goes, you know, Terry. If you weren't such a nice guy, boom. Wow, look at that. Charmed life, huh? I was scared for you. Thank you.

Even in that story, I was scared for you. Lucky. Jess, yeah, blessed. Blessed. Blessed. Super blessed. Yeah. And so, okay, so that show then must go away.

Because I didn't hear it. One season, bing. It's gone. The critics just, you couldn't do another season. It was gone. Wow. I had never even heard of them. Hey, Paul.

We've got a surprise for you. You do. All right. Who's it from? It's love from your listeners. We Need to Talk is sponsored by Claude Bionthropic, the AI for Mindset Don't Stop at Good Enough. So we thought we'd use it to make Paul something special from you.

Using Claude, we analyzed every comment left on all the 102 YouTube episodes and then prompted it to turn that data into something beautiful. This design is 10.10. We talk to each other. 6,021. That's how many ongoing conversations were sparked in the comments of your episodes. Wow. Thank you for giving us the confidence to be as open with each other as your guests are with you.

That is a lot of conversations. And that, I would say, has been my biggest surprise about We Need to Talk, is how many people continue the conversation from the episode into their lives with people they love with their friends, with their family, with their partners, and how those conversations then help them to change their behavior. And so that's all I could ask. For delving deeper, get started with clod.a.ai slash talk. That's clod.aid.com. Don't you wish you could just hit skip on the worst parts of your life? You know, the same way you can skip an ad. I get it. I'm Siaya and I live in Iceco.

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Yes. I had done it. Many years later. Yeah, botched was 2014. That was 2009. 2000. Okay. Yeah. So then between that, I'm watching my buddy, Paul Nassif, plastic surgeon. He and his wife go on the Real Housewives of Beverly Hills. And I'm saying, oh my gosh, what is this show? I wasn't really that familiar with Housewives. And I start watching them. And I say, wouldn't that be fun to go on Real Housewives of Orange County? So I see it to my wife, what do you think about Real Housewives of Orange County? outy she goes, yeah, never, because she was an actress on a TV show. She goes, I'm never doing that cheesy housewife show ever.

Howdy, forget it. I go, it kind of looks fun because Paul goes, it's fun. So I apply for her, and I don't tell her. Really? Yeah. True story, by the way. Oh, my goodness. So I, she says, I'm not doing it.

So I go, all right, so I devise a reality show of all of her and her high-end friends opening up a restaurant. Get out of here. Called the Pelican Hill Wives. And I thought this is going to make the greatest reality show because one was the CEO's wife of Smith & Wesson. Yes. One was a neurosurgeon.

One wife was, and they were all gorgeous and wealthy. So I said, let's pitch a show about opening up a restaurant. So we fly up to Burbank and meet the guy, Alex Baskin and Evolution, to pitch him this show about Housewise, I mean about the restaurant. That restaurant. Yes. But I already contacted him a little bit about my wife being on Housewives. So we're driving away.

We already were going to sign deals with other production companies to do this show. But I'm driving away. They flew up on a helicopter. I drove home in my hybrid because one of them had a helicopter. And he calls me, goes, how about this? Instead of doing that show de novo, why don't your, why does your wife come on as the next housewife on real housewife? on Real Housewives Orange County and we'll incubate that show

on a hit show that'll, you'll have a much better chance because the chance that show is actually going to be picked up as low because it's hard to get it. So I combed to my wife. He'll go, so they want to do the show and I go, well, here's the thing.

How about you come on Real Housewise Orange County? She goes, I am not coming a real Housewives of it. And so I didn't speak to her for two weeks. No. I literally barely talked to her for two weeks.

I really did. And then finally, she said, okay, fine. If you want me to go on that show so badly, you sign the contract. So Alex Baskin, the producer, who's a very famous producer now, Banderpump Rules, the Valley. Yes. He's huge. Yes. He's calling me the whole time.

So she wants to come on. Oh, yeah, she wants to come on, Alex. I'm lying. I signed the contract. Does she know? No. She said, if you want me to do it so bad, almost passive aggressively. Okay.

This is a true, true story. This is incredible. Not exaggerate at all. And I said, Heather Debrough. And I sign it and I faxed it back. And Alice goes me, okay, great. So she needs to come up and... Can I just go back?

So you forged her signature? Totally. One thousand percent. This is so scandalous. I know. Yeah. And I said, so we're going to go up and meet with the family. She goes, what do you mean?

I go, I sign. the contract to be on Real Housewives Orange County. She goes, what? I go, I did. Long story short, she said, okay, I'll go meet them, but I'm still, you know, it's not indentured servitude. If I don't want to do it, I'm not going to do it. So I'd never seen the show.

Long story short, I go on my iPad and I go, Real Housewives of Orange County, I've never seen this show at all. I bring up, the only scene I could find was this scene of this girl Tamara, who we know very well now, who's like the longest running OG Housewives. there is, throwing a glass of wine in one of the other housewives face. You ever seen this scene? I've heard of it? Yes.

Yes. And I look at this and I go, I drop the iPad. I walk in the kitchen. I go, honey, we're not doing the show. I know what I thought, I don't, you know, she goes, what are you talking about? I go, I show her this scene and she goes, oh, it's hilarious. Oh, wow. And here we are.

My wife's been on the show for like, what? 11 years. Yeah, the rest is history. That is fascinating. And to answer your question, Paul got off, Paul left Beverly Hills. His break, his, the reality TV show Housewife Curse occurred. He got divorced on the show. He calls me one day and he goes, let's do a show about revisional plastic surgery

because he wanted to get back on TV. And we were specialists in doing hard revisional plastic surgery by then. Yes. And I said, that's the worst idea ever, man. I go, listen, it's going to fail a lot. lot. We're going to, it's going to be, the audience doesn't understand that even if we make it a little

better, that's probably good. The fact that it didn't fail at all is probably good enough. They want to see a before that's bad. Massive transformation. Massive transformation. And we'll look like bad surgeons. He goes, no, no, it'll work. It'll work. So, we went up and pitched it to Alex Baskin. Yes. He said, let's shoot

a sizzle reel, a nine-minute sizzle reel. They brought the cameras out. We looked at before and after pictures. And we were just talking. We had this amazing chemistry. They showed it to the network. They picked up the series. And it became this instant hit. Instant.

Yes. You know what it was called initially? No. Can I curse on this a little bit? You can. I can. You can't. You can bleep it.

The show was called, remember nip-tuck? Yes, I do. The show was called nip-fcked. F-A-A-D. That, yeah, that's not working. So, we were so happy with that name. So a week before the show comes out, We get a call from the executive producer,

hey, we're changing the name of the show. Why, the advertisers don't like Nip Futt. Oh. Because there was a show called shit my dad says, starring Will Shatner on CBS. So we thought they would go for it. They said no. So I go, what's the new name of the show?

They go botched. I said, botched. No. You didn't like that. No, because it implies. Right, that you're not, you're going to mess it up. that the plastics, whoever operate on them, committed malpractice or botched them. Okay.

And I said, because 98%, they just had too much plastic surgery or they had a big complication. It wasn't the doctor's fault necessarily. We didn't want to highlight other doctors' failures. Okay. And even more importantly, I'm laying in bed at 2 o'clock in the morning after the, and I thought to myself, I wake up and my wife goes, what? I go, what if we blow it? The headline is botched by the botched doctor.

I go, that's the worst title. And the network, NBC goes, yeah, we don't care. It's called botched. And we went to New York. The first episode came out. And back then, Twitter was a new thing. Yes. See, you could see how well a show was doing by how many tweets.

I couldn't keep up with it. Yes. It was just, oh, my, the greatest show. Oh, this is a girl. Oh, he's so funny. It was just zzz. And Paul goes, what do you think? I go, I don't know how much of an indication this is,

but this might be a hitcher. The next morning, they call us and they go, we're picking up the next season. By the second episode. By the second episode. Yeah, look at that. And, you know, and not only was it, I think, a hit in terms of the viewers, the ratings, that is. Yeah. But the critical review of it was positive.

It was great. And what do you suspect the difference was between, say, botched and the swan? Why was botched received so well? We weren't glorifying plastic surgery. We weren't minimizing the dangers of plastic surgery. We weren't advertising. Everybody should have to have big breasts, otherwise you're worth less, right? Okay.

Your quality of life. It was about, hey, plastic surgery has this place, but this is a cautionary tale. It can and does go wrong. And we're going to highlight when people have had too much plastic surgery, when they've pushed the envelope, when they went for medical tourism, bad decisions. So it was kind of the best kind of plastic surgery show you could ever want to have on television because we were promoting safety.

Yes, yes. And caution and making good decisions and informed consent and good medicine. And there's a lot of comedy, but we never put down the patients. And we always, you know, pulled the scalpel back. And it was just about giving people who were in hopeless situations hope. Yeah, that's what it was. I feel as if the participants, the contributors, they were inspired. Yes.

And not only by how they now looked different, but they were inspired by you. Yes. And Dr. Paul as well. Yeah. And on that note, I want to show you something. A few things for you. Okay. Dr. Terry, but this one in particular, do you remember this case?

Yes. Okay. That's my most significant case. Oh, really? ever. Can you tell us what's, why is that the most significant case? So this was a patient who came in the second or third season. Okay. And the way botched works is there's an A story, a B story, and a C story. And the C story is someone who we can't fix, but we're bringing on as a cautionary tale and we're trying to advise them not to have any

more surgery. This is someone who went to one of those plumping parties where illegal substances in a hotel room by an unlicensed provider injects people with filler. So she went to a hotel room, who injected her with plumbing material, cocking material, literal concrete from a hardware store. My goodness. As filler, which looked initially good, after about four months, the immune system started to overreact and form a foreign body reaction, where it called granulomas. And she developed these huge masses made out of concrete and inflammatory tissue all over her

face, and no plastic surgeon would take her on. So we brought her on and I look. And I'm sorry, even Dr. Event, why would no plastic surgeon take her on? Because, first of all, it goes from the bottom of the skin, you know, the upper portions of the skin, where the blood supply is all the way down to the bone. So it's encompassing the muscle, the soft tissue, the blood supply of the skin, the nerves. To remove it, you have to remove these entire concrete blocks, and you're going to have giant holes, and it's all going to die around there.

In addition, it's a quiet now. But if you go in and operate on it, there's the great potential that you're going to overactivate or reactivate the immune system. And it'll become a massive inflammatory infected mass mess as well. So dead tissue, holes in face, much worse. No one would touch her. So we turn her down. So for the next eight months, I think we had. between four months between seasons.

Okay. I would go to bed. I don't sleep very well. I sleep very little. I go to bed and I sort of do my visualization about cases tomorrow or things I want to happen. And all I could see every day was her. I felt terrible.

She says to me on the way out, off camera, you know, I can't even go to a CVS, to a drug store. Kids see me and immediately either scream or point. I can't go any. I go, you don't go, she goes, I don't go to restaurants, I don't go into stores, I go nowhere. And this is before Postmates, you know. Right, where you can get to lead.

Yeah. Yeah. So I felt so bad for her. So I had an epiphany at 4 a.m. That I thought would allow me to fix her. And the epiphany, very briefly is this. I thought, why are we taking out the entire concrete mass? If you feel your face, it's bone.

Yes. It's irregular bone. And I said, just as long as you can't see it. So I came up with the principle, and plastic surgery, particularly botchblast surgery, is all based on foundational principles in plastic surgery that you apply uniquely to new problems, hopefully in a safe, effective way. I thought, I'll get orthopedic saw. I'll lift up the skin and I'll saw out the central two-thirds, collapsing these masses,

and even though you can feel them like you can feel your zygoma, your maxillary bone, you might feel it, but you can't see it. Okay. So I took one out in her chin under Local just to see them make sure her immune system wasn't going to overreact. And I said, it didn't. All right. And I took her whole face apart and sawed them all out. And that's what she looked like.

Wow. And she healed. That's incredible. And even three weeks ago, she has sent me a text. I just want you know, this is years. years ago, nine years ago, I just want you to how grateful I still am for you. So this is one of my biggest successes. Her name is it. Raji. Raja. I mean, absolutely incredible. And I would imagine it then changes her life. Oh, suddenly she can join the real world. She can be a participating

human being. I mean, this is someone who's, she was telling me, she thought a lot about ending things. You know, I am on this note There's something I want you to listen to Okay, okay, you're ready This is a I just have surprises for you Oh, I love it Here is one for you Hey Dr. Debrough, Raji Narin Singh here

Transgender activist, actress, spiritualists And thanks to you, reality TV personality I feel so fortunate that you and I were able to cross past this lifetime. The work that you are doing is extremely transformative, and I know that you had touched so many people's lives in wonderful, uplifting ways, including my life. Because of you, I have so much more confidence

to do all that I do in this world. Oh, my goodness, Dr. DeBrow, I just want to say, from the bottom of my heart, thank you again. Thank you for being such a blessing to my life. On that note, you keep shining bright. Love peace and blessings. Bye. Yeah, that's sweet.

Thank you. That was, yeah. I mean, you know, that's heavy. There's other reasons why it's also heavy, but this is very, you know, I'm just so happy I was able to help her. I mean, I love her. And see, that's a good example of. you know, if that would have gone badly, 11 surgeons told her not to do it.

So all of a sudden, I do this thing to her and it goes very badly. That's a God complex. You know, I wrote a check that her face couldn't cash, right? And so I had to do a lot of soul searching to see whether I wanted to, because one could theoretically say that that was negligent to even try it, even though I did it's sort of a test. But anyway, that's, I mean, thank you for playing that. I love that. And I'm just so, I mean, I, you know, I don't know how the schlub got to be such a lucky person in life, but I did. I don't know. I must have done something right in a past life, okay? Hopefully. I think the, the beauty for me is that I think

Some people may hear the term cosmetic surgeon. Yeah. And not understand how profound your work is and how important and life changing it is. And this is an example. This is just one of many examples of how your work and Paul's work has changed life. And other surgeons have changed life of many. When you think of other transformations or other moments, from botch that stand out to you?

Are there any that really touch your soul? There are so many. I mean, I love the ones where they not only have a cosmetic deformity, but they have a real significant functional deformity. Like they can't do something. For example, there was this police officer who had had a nephrectomy for renal cell cancer, and he got this pretty rare phenomenon

on where he lost all of the tone on the side of him in his flank. And because of that, he had a huge bulge. Essentially, his entire intra-abdominal contents would bulge out. He couldn't even wear his police belt. And so it was painful. And he couldn't run. He couldn't tackle people and so on and do what he wanted to do. And so I had to come up with a very unique operation to fix that. That one really stands out. And then there's those who have you know, they had so much tissue loss, they have a big skin graft

on their abdomen. And how do you walk around with this giant ugly patchwork skin graft from your leg in your abdomen? When you're a 30-something year old woman who wants to feel attractive and be intimate and so on. Yes.

And so, you know, I've been able to find ways. I mean, Botch taught me how to be the Votch surgeon. You know? And so I learned how to do things that aren't in any textbooks that I just applied

and now I can do them practically with my eyes closed. Look at that. And I believe you. I believe you could. There was one, when I was researching for you coming in, there was one particular one that stood out to me as well.

And this is Jenna. Do you remember Jenna who had, she went to get a BBL I believe it was a BBL. Oh. Yeah, you remember that one. Was she African American? Yeah, I believe so.

Well, this is the breast implants. In her buttock. Yes. Which that seems to be malpracticed to me. Yeah, well, it was Mexico, I think. Okay. Yes, yes, it was Mexico. And they were so big and so heavy and so improperly inserted

that it caused, and she was thin, right? very attractive and young. Yes. And it caused her entire buttock to stretch out. And what are you going to do with that? Because she was thin. So if you just take them out, you've got loose skin and no volume. And it would be worse looking to take them out.

And they hurt. They were pressing on her nerves. Right. But also, too, is it aren't BBLs the most dangerous? Dangerous. Yes. Yes. Yes.

Yes. And why is that so? So if you take a BBL, as you know, is a fat transfer to the buttock. You take fat from one part of the body through liposuction and you inject it into the buttock substance to make the buttock larger and more projecting. That sounds all great, right? And sounds like it should be pretty safe. The problem is there are these sort of large but short blood vessels in the

the body that connect directly to the main vein going back to the heart. Okay. And so these gluteal veins are directly connected to the inferior vina cava. And if you, by mistake, because you think about this procedure is done blindly, you're not opening them up and laying fat down. You're injecting it through a cannula and going to and fro, and you have no idea where the tip of that cannula is. and if you inject into one of those veins

and it goes, a glob of fat goes to the right side of the heart and then goes to the lung and blocks the pulmonary circulation, that's called a fat embellus, you can die. I see. And that operation is the most fatal operation in plastic surgery, one of the most fatal operations evolved because of that potential complication. My goodness, okay.

And even a month ago, some influencer died, because of that. Yeah. Yeah. And so with with, with, with, with, with, with, with, with, with BBL. Mm-hmm. But it seems like it wasn't fat.

It was a breast implant. So she had an augmentation of the buttock using a breast implant. So what do you do with that? Do you, first of all, she doesn't have any, even if you want to do a BBL, she didn't have a body fat. Right. And if you just take it out, she's got. Yes.

and she'll look way worse. So I invented an operation. You invented an operation? Yes. Based on surgical foundational principles, where I took it out. I did a buttock lift, so I took off a lot of the excess skin, but I took muscle and body fat from her flanks. She had a little bit of a love handle area, and the right left one, and I rotated them down, left their blood supply, their feeding blood vessels intact and put it in the pocket.

Oh, my goodness. And lifted things up. And I don't know if you have a picture of that one, but that one really worked well. I do have a before-after. Yeah. Yeah. That maybe we'll put up here. Okay.

Yeah. We'll put the before after. Yeah. I haven't seen it for a long time, but I was extraordinarily pleased with that result. Yes. Yes. The note that I have here is that, and we will, we're going to place it right here. So there it is.

Look at that. Yeah, I mean, sometimes when you do a reconstructive cosmetic procedure, you try to achieve normalcy. It's enough to make them look normal. From horrible to normal is a home run. But to go from horrible to beautiful is wonderful. And so, you know, I use the grade analogy. I always try to get a 93 on the exam because a 93 is an A out of 100. And you can get into med school with 93s.

And so if I can take them to a 93, I got an A on the test. Oh, my gosh. Yeah, I think you took her to 100. Yeah, that one was exceeding of expectations, yeah. In the UK, I hear a lot of people say, we're going to Turkey. Yes. In the States, I hear a lot of people say, we're going to to Mexico.

That's right. Yeah. And I would imagine because it's cheaper. It is cheaper. It is. And it's a fraction of what it costs in the UK or in the United States. The problem is it's not regulated. They do have some fabulous surgeons in Mexico City and parts of Turkey.

Unbelievable like they do all over the world. But, you know, they don't really have lawyers there. So they can do things without any kind of, you know, know, regulatory body overlooking them. So there isn't the same kind of paranoia, appropriate paranoia and fear and controls that there is in our countries. Fair enough.

And so you don't know who you're gonna get. And the worst part about that medical tourism is that what happens if you have a complication? Because you can go to the best plastic surgeons in Beverly Hills, Manhattan, Miami, Dallas. They all have complications. We all have complications. That if we didn't have complications,

we wouldn't have you sign it, consent form that lists everything from infection bleeding to death, right? So if you have a complication in those countries and you come back here, nobody wants to touch you, you know, you're not going to pay them very much because you already had the surgery and nobody wants to deal with another surgeon's problems. Have he said that, I will take them. Yes. I don't care.

Yes. And you currently, you currently will. even if they're in the throes of a massive complication and they're not even ready for my fix it yet I'll take them just because I mean I'm I'm lucky I don't really operate for money at all anymore I've gotten so lucky financially my life for other reasons and so I just I just want to help you don't operate for money anymore I mean I charge them I'm expensive okay if you can afford it But what I mean by that is, I mean, I have an office in Beverly Hills now. And I have people, 15 people who work for me.

I have to feed the kitty or whatever it is, you know. Yes. But, you know, if a patient has a problem, they have a problem. I don't care. I'll help them. Period. End of story. I see it.

Hey there. I just want to say, thank you for choosing we need to talk. Doing this podcast is one of the great. greatest joys of my life, and I want to continue to share it with you. So hit follow and the bell icon. It takes just a second, and it helps us to continue to grow this podcast. I know that you brought some items in. Oh, yes. Yes, show and tell. This is the show to. So I have to say something. This is, I don't know if this is going to get me into trouble, but I'm just going to say it. Because I like, you just say how it is, right? Yeah. So I have never.

my life felt a breast implant because those are what those are breast implants. You've never felt an in vivo breast implant or an ex-fivo. I don't know, what's the difference? Well, in-vivo means it's been inserted. Inserted. So I've never felt an in vivo or ex-vivo or ex-vivo. I've never felt it in vivo or ex-vivo, but I've always been curious. Okay.

So let me tell you about this is a very, so this is a silicone breast implant. Okay. Now, wow, look at that. It's very interesting, isn't it? Well, this is a very unique, this is a brand new type. Oh, is that different from this one? No, these are the same. These are just different sizes.

Okay. But this variety has changed everything in plastic surgery. And in Europe, they've been using these for years. They weren't FDA approved. Okay. These have a unique quality to them. The biggest problem with breast disease, implants and the number one complication with breast implants is that your body will form scar

tissue around them. Okay. And even if you do everything right and they're healthy, 15, 20% of the time, the body decides after a while it doesn't like them anymore. And just like with Raji, the immune system forming calcium, calcification, and foreign body around it, it can do the same thing around these. Okay. And that's called encapsulation. In other words, like capsular contracture are involved. And they become rock hard, painful, squeezing them down and distorts them. This doesn't do that very often. Okay.

And recent studies have shown there's less than a 1% chance of this type of implant from getting hard. Wow, I see it. So this is the new hot one that's been in the UK for a long time. Oh, really? This has been there for a while. But we're out lucky it's FDA approved now. Can I say the first thing that I think of? Can I actually, I'm going to see.

Please. So the first thing I think of is, God, these would be heavy to walk around with. Yeah. I mean, it feels like it's, you know, you want to hear something strange? What's that? Large natural breasts on a woman can give them symptoms of hypermasty. In other words, you can get symptoms related to them being very heavy. Neck pain, arm pain, numbness, bra strap grooving, giant implants.

For some reason, they don't? They don't. Wow, this is. So would this be heavier? So what size is this? So it depends what your starting size is, right? Okay. So if you start out as a B, that's going to, you're going to be one size.

If you start as a C, you're going to be bigger for any given implant, right? Right. But if you're, let's say you're a small B, you're relatively small breasted. Okay. That one in your left hand, that's going to be, like a small D. Okay. That one's smaller, right?

That's going to be like a full C. And this will be like a small C. Okay, okay, fair enough. You know, also, too, is with breast implants, something that I'm sure you see this more than anyone is it feels as if the trend, if you will, has drastically changed. Yes. We've had a few guests on who have told me that they literally saw their cosmetic surgeon and said, I want the biggest implant humanly possible.

Yeah, we don't like that. But that was 10 years ago. That's right. But now, thankfully. Really. So things have changed now. The trend has changed. You know, it's funny, you look at this.

There are certain celebrities that we can talk about because they've talked about. I don't want to give these back to you, but I'll give these back to you. You can give these somebody later. Well, there are certain celebrities that we can't actually talk about because they've admitted to plastic surgery recently. Okay. That moved the needle overnight. I'll give an example.

When Kylie Jenner, who has one billion followers or something, maybe 800 million? And yeah, plus a billion dollars. Or multiple billion. Yeah. When she at age, I believe 19, had filler put into her lips,

which is a verboten thing back then. You're never doing filler, liposuction, breast documentation on someone under 21 back then. Okay. Okay. Overnight, she changed the entire landscape of potential candidates for filler because she came and said, oh, look, her lips just got bigger and I think she admitted to it.

And everybody, every teenager wanted filler in their lips. I didn't do that. I still don't do that. I feel you should be 21. Okay. Okay. Look what Chris Jenner did. Chris Jenner destigmatized instantly facelift surgery.

Yes. I mean, a celebrity would have a facelift and, oh, I went to a wellness retreat. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Right. We had Kathy Griffin on, who is Chris Jenner's friend. Yes.

And she told us she had just recently received her third. Yes. Facelift. However, she said she couldn't afford Chris Jenner's. Right. Because, you know, so in other words, she was saying that she didn't get the same level. She did. But she did.

I know her surgeon and I'm not going to pit one against the other, but that guy is everything and more. His top, yeah. I mean, she kept, she looked great. Great. She looked like phenomenal. Yeah, facelifts now because Chris Jenner, another Kardashian moved the needle literally overnight. I remember back when National G. There was a picture of Brittany Spears with her arm up.

And you could see an incision in her armpit. And they showed a picture of her like a year before with smaller breasts and then with full breast. It was very clear she had had a trans axillary breast augmentation. Overnight, it became a thing to talk about breast. Even though she didn't even admit it, it became a thing to talk about. So who has moved the trend to smaller breast size? I think celebrities are doing small.

I think just the general celebrities are looking smaller by and large. I don't think when you look at these Love Island shows, I don't think you're seeing women with very big breasts anymore. So there's just a different standard, which is so good because the smaller you go, the less chance that the body is going to reject it and overreact to it. because, I mean, think about it. I mean, I've always had this weird thought about plastic surgery. If you really think about cosmetic surgery, to go from not doing breast augmentation to it becoming a thing in culture, in society, somebody came up with the thought, hmm, let's make an incision in the bottom of the breast and throw some plastic in there. Yes. That's crazy.

that's an experiment that's wild how can you ever get away with that and somebody at one point somebody said oh let's cut the face open all the way around the ears fillet it like a fish

dissect deep layers near the nerves and pull it back just to make them look younger I mean who was the first guy to do that if you think about it Cosmetic Surgery is true human surgical experimentation.

Yes, yes. Now, when you mentioned the smaller, this whole idea of we like smaller now, is this the reason why these GLP ones have become so popular? Is it because is that part of the smaller trend? I think it is, but a larger picture, of course, is, and you know, I'm obsessed with the GLP1 drugs. I don't know if you know this about me, but what my wife told me. Yes. My wife told me that you microdose. Yes, I do. And she wants to know all about, I'll tell you. Yes. You could get me talking for five hours about this. So I'm obsessed with these drugs.

This is the biggest, hit most historic change in the history of medicine, the introduction of these drugs, because these drugs directly affect the risks of all top four causes of death. which include cardiovascular disease, cancer, metabolic disorders like diabetes, and neurodegenerative disorders like Alzheimer's and Parkinson's. The less body fat you have, the lower your risk of all those causes of death. And it does it in a very beautiful natural way. I'm so obsessed by these drugs that at this late stage of my life, I actually studied and took all the courses for a year

to take the American Board of Obesity Medicine Certification, and I'm board certified in obesity medicine. Oh, my goodness. And an expert in obesity medicine in these drugs. Because this is such, this is, this is to medicine as AI is to technology in general. Fascinating. Yeah. And the path that's about to go on, if you want to hear about that, with the next level of

drugs coming out is another level. Well, just to talk about the current adoption rate of this, because this is what I find to be very interesting. So in the U.S., 12 to 18% of adults have taken a GLP1, right? Okay. This is according to KFF and Rand. Okay. In the UK, it's lower.

7% of adults are now currently using GLP1s. In the UK, 1 in 10 women are likely or very likely to consider a GLP1 in the next year. Right. So the trend is, it's growing. My first question around this is, what is the danger? Yes. There must be some danger in this. There is, but remember, these are FDA-approved drugs.

Okay. These are also drugs that have been used for diabetes for the last 14 years. So diabetics have shown us that they're quite safe and effective. Okay. All right. So we know it's not like it just came out and what's going to happen. been 14 years from now, you know, is the boogeyman going to appear out of the blue? They've already been used for a long time.

The side effects relative to the benefits are crazily overwhelmed, overweight, okay? The side effects are mainly related to slowing down the GI track, things like nausea, constipation, GERD reflux. And every once in a while, there is a tiny, tiny amount of people. I'm not really sure it's true. Have visual problems with it, maybe even some blindness, although I'm not really sure that's true. And gastroporesis, your stomach stops working.

Oh, I don't want to do that. It's so incredibly unlikely and rare. And by the way, you can take Tylenol, aspirin, the most common anti-hospheresis. hypertensive blood pressure medication and take the list of side effects with those, they're a lot worse and a lot more common. The most dangerous drug we take is Tylenol. Really? Yeah.

The number of liver failure and liver transplants that need to be done because of Tylenol overdose is extraordinary. That's the most dangerous drug we take for sure. So, but they're so effective. And, you know, there's, I don't know if you want me to talk too much about the types you probably know there's the ozempics yes and then so there's the g lp1 which is ozempic and wagovi then there's the glp one and gip which is monjaro and zepp bound same drug okay and then there's the one about to come out uh uh uh retatrutide people call it reda trutide

it's retatrutide for those who know that you know okay but anyway reda it's gone it's going through phase three clinical trials at the FDA with Eli Lilly. And it's GLP1, GIP, and a fat burger. Because the big problem with these drugs is you take them and as opposed to a regular diet where regular diet, diet and exercise, you lose 75% fat, 25% muscle. With these, you lose too much regular muscle. And you don't want to lose muscle. Oh, that's interesting.

I didn't realize you, you lose muscle. You lose muscle. You lose muscle. With these. So the big recommendation for anyone who wants to take these is, okay, you can take. it, but you're now upping your protein intake. Every day you're taking your protein and two, at least two and ideally three times a week. Right.

Resistance trait. You've got to maintain your muscle mass, okay? Reda Trutide has a fat burner in it. So it helps to preserve muscle and directly burn fat. So that's the one that's about to come out. What's weird is it's already being made. It's already being compounded illegally. all over the place. Interesting.

In Beverly Hills, very few people I know who are on these are on the approved ones. They're all on Reda. Oh, my goodness. Red and, by the way, if your phone is around, don't get it out because it's listening. Next time you mindlessly scroll, you're going to see nothing but Reda. But Reda, yeah. It's so effective. Don't use Reda from a compounding pharmacy because it comes from China.

Who knows what's in it. but when it comes out, that's going to be the big number one game changer. Do you recommend now that, because you're saying that basically we want to reduce body fat. Right. Right. So anyone who's walking around with body fat outside of the ideal percentage, are you suggesting that it's to our benefit? I think here's where it gets, the answer is yes. I think everyone who has obesity, certainly clinical obesity, which is by definition, by definition,

addition of BMI greater than 30. That's class one obesity. Grated in 35 is two and greater in 40 is three. These are people who are much, much more obese than they should be. Where it gets real hinky is that because these drugs not only control body fat, they also control sugar metabolism. Okay. And they clearly minimize the effect, the inflammatory effect of sugar on the human body. So much so that because of that effect, they're now FDA approved for kidney disease, fatty liver disease. So the question is, should everyone, I'm not advocating this, or am I, should everyone, even someone who has no need to lose weight, should they be on a low dose of these drugs anyway, just to minimize the inflammatory effect, the big enemy of sugar? Is this why you micro, is it that? Microdose.

Yeah. Because my wife is saying, yeah, Dr. Terry, microdoses. So this is why. So it's not a full dose that you're taking. Correct. Okay. So the question is, what does microdose mean? Because it means different things to different people.

Let's take Monjarro, the FDA-approved one. Zepbound is also called. The lowest dose is 2.5 milligrams once a week. Okay. Is it an injection? Yeah. It's like this auto-injector pen. It's wonderful.

Okay. You don't even feel it. So the half-life is seven. days. It starts to wear off. You get another one. You start to build up. After four weeks or so, if your appetite isn't where you want it to be, if you're still eating too much, you're not losing as much weight, you go up to five. And then after four weeks, you go up to 7.5, 10, 12.5, 15. So, to me, if you've gone up to 5, 7.5, and 10, and you've lost all your weight, what do you do? Do you go off it? Cold turkey? Right. I think the idea is to, for those people, consider microdosing,

which means go down to a lower dose and just stay on that and see how it works on you. Where it's, for some people, I'm a real responder. I take a low dose. I am not hungry. It's awesome. Other people, they don't respond the way I might. So they need to go way up. But for me, a microdose is like half a dose.

Now, the drug companies probably don't want me to be saying this. They really, little they don't because they have FDA. approval, which means the FDA approves the marketing of these drugs. So the FDA says you can advertise it for weight loss. You can't advertise it for sugar control. Okay. I see. Like by the way, Botox is FDA approved for here. You know we put it here. You know we put it here. It's not FDA approved for here. Interesting. Yeah. Okay. But anyway, I'm a big fan of microdosing. I could see I could see it. You know, on the OZempic side, too, is something, it's interesting.

I eavesdrop on my wife and her friends all the time, right? And these GLP ones, they're constantly talking about them. It's the new cosmetic surgery. It is like, it is the hottest thing. It is. I heard them once say, what about OZempic vagina or Ozempic vulva? Ozempic vulva. Or ozempic pha.

Or ozempic pha. Or ozempic phas. Yes. They're very different. Are these actual things? Yes. Okay. Those are ozambic butt, ozambic face, ozempic vulva. Okay. So ozempic vulva is when, you know, things start to really deflate and hang. And it doesn't nicely look as aesthetic as they might like it to be. Ozempic face is when you've lost so much body, that you prematurely, here's the problem. When people, when they lose weight very quickly, they look very deflated and loose and they run into the plastic surgeon's office. You should wait. Okay. Because they will re-equilibrate and they will redistribute fat so that if you look at those people, even if they lost weight and maintain that steady weight for a long time, they'll put some face of fat naturally back in their face. Don't run into the plastic

surgeon's office, where it's opposite of this deflational change is ozempic penis. Osempic? I've never heard of this. Yeah. Tell me about it. So if you think about it, people who are very, men who are very obese and they have a lot of pubic fat and inner thigh fat, if you're really fat, you have what we call buried penis syndrome. You can't find it in there. So if you take Osempic or one of these drugs and you lose all the surrounding fat, your penis looks bigger. Interesting. So, ozempic penis is actually, it's a good thing.

Yes. How lucky are we guys? We are always winning. We don't have to menstruate or have kids. No. You know, the plumbing is always the same, and our penises get bigger when we lose weight. That's what I was like. Oh, yeah.

Ozempic vulva is bad. Ozempic penis is good. Thank you very much, Eli Lilly. Oh, my God. All right. So another area that we have to talk about, it is become a topic in my household because I have teenage boys.

Oh. Oh, looks maxing. You said it. Yes. I'm obsessed with it. Yes. Could you first define it? And then let's talk about it.

So I think it's a phenomenon where primarily young boys between the ages of sort of pre or just entering in puberty to about 19 or 20, put an extraordinary amount of emphasis on their looks to the extent where it's their absolute life's focus. And they associate that with their SMV. Yes. Sexual market value, as you know. Yes.

Okay. Like their whole worth is in the shape of their, the amount of muscularity and their torso, the shape of their jaw, the distance between their eyes, their hairs, blah, blah, blah. It's that. It's maximizing your look so that you're more valuable and more attractive. And it started out among the incels, as you know. Yes. And that's expanded now and really virally caught fire primarily due to clavicular. Clavicular. Yes. Guy. Who is, and I mean, if we talk about him, I mean, just briefly. But he's been. because he's breaking bones in his face.

Yes. He's chewing on all kinds of things for his draw line. He's, I mean, yeah, yeah. He's doing all these things. Yes. And these posts are going viral. Yes. So he's advocating conventional and unconventional things to maximize your looks, okay?

Where the message, I think the overall message is terrible. Do you really want your, you know, entering into puberty young men to be focused? seeing at the exclusion of everything else in their lives, their physical appearance rather than becoming good humans and learning ethical things and gaining useful skills that will make them important members of society? No, it's the last thing you really want them to focus on. But unfortunately, they advocate doing some things

that are really unconventional and crazy, and parentheses mostly don't work. for example, bone smashing, where they take a hammer, a blunt object, and smash various places on their face to try to get bony overgrowth. And they confuse it and conflate it with this orthopedic principle called Wolf's Law, where if you put enough stress on a bone with muscle, the bone will grow in response to that stress. It doesn't work with intermittent trauma. All it's going to do is give you many fractures and scars and bone cysts. It's, it's dumb. It's dumb maxing, I call it. It doesn't work at all. And then this thing about the other kind of gym, you know,

gymnastics that they have where they put their tongue at the roof of their mouth and that's supposed to make your jaw line and your platisma muscles under here more defined. That doesn't work. Okay. And then they talk about a lot of plastic surgery. That's, fine. Then they also talk about unfortunately very, very early steroid use. Yes. Yes. This is becoming, yeah, absolutely. So that is one, that is illegal, isn't it? Well, it's certainly illegal, but even more so, it's dangerous. And it arrests many parts of puberty. It causes early hair loss, acne, fertility, and stunster growth. if you'd use testosterone early on.

And this clavicular guy has talked about and discussed and advocated taking steroids as early as 12 years of age. Plus he takes it also to another level. He mixes that with illicit drugs. You know, he had an overdose recently and had to be taken to the hospital emergently. And so, I mean, the last thing you want to do is listen to this guy, clavicular. You know, he knows he's looked up on public. which everybody has access to on the internet.

So he knows a lot of the terminology that we use when we discuss testosterone and it's byproducts and aromatase and various medications. So he's sort of superficially talking the talk, but just below that surface is, you know, zero, you know, helpful, useful information. He's the last guy to get your medical information. What do you suggest parents, like parents of teenage boys who are now increasingly becoming aware of looks maxing? Yeah. And some beginning to participate.

What advice do you have for us? So I think it's really important that you try, don't, as you know, it's the general parental principles of interact with your kids. You know, find a way to communicate. find a way to discuss with them without them feeling like you're judging them. Because once you judge, it's like telling them, you tell them stories about how you did Coke in college and ecstasy and drank. You're not going to do Coke and ecstasy in college. I did that and you're not going to do it.

Well, telling them not going to do it, all that means is they're not going to share it with you and they're going to hide from you. So I think an open dialogue where you talk about. talk about it in a very sort of plain vanilla wrapped way without, you're not condoning it, but you're also not overly criticizing it. You're just going, where's your head at with it? Try to figure out if they're even interested in it and have the pros and cons discussion and make them feel like they're part of the conversation rather than you're lecturing them. I know one person that you love, adore.

obsessed with is Heather. Oh, my wife. Your wife, Heather. Obsessed. Who I didn't know is from the Bronx. Yes. Okay, because I'm from Queens. Okay.

Okay. And when I read that she's from the Bronx, I said, oh my gosh. Yeah. She must be the boss of the house. Oh. Well, she must be running things in the Dubrow household. So I'm just a participant, a lucky participant in. Heather DeBrow's world.

Yes. I can know it. By the way, I'm a very lucky member of Heather Debrose World because to live in her sort of orbit, it's a very nice place to be. She's extraordinarily kind, funny,

intense, and you better get your stuff together. Because when I met her, she said, I said, she said, what are you looking for in a woman? I said, I don't know. You know, a nice chest. You said that? No. No, I'm sure I made something. No, I didn't. I'm sure I said something

that was calculated to have her like me. Yes. Because she was so amazing. And I said, what are you looking for her man? She goes, a man with a plan. I said, oh, she goes, I don't want to fool around. If I'm going to be with someone, I'm going to know that they want to do things and they have a plan and they're going to affect that plan and do it right. Heather is a person with a plan. And Heather DeBerl's world is very curate and very dialed and it's a really lovely place to be. I just

show up. She says I show up like a surgeon walking into the operating room. Everybody has to sort of attend to me. But it's true, I come home and I just go, whish. And I go, okay, what's next? Where are we doing? Okay. You know, it's a really wonderful place to be. She's a wonderful, wonderful

woman. Yeah, and you and Heather, you have an incredible family. I've seen the family photos. Yes. A matter of fact. Oh, you have one. A matter of fact. Bam!

Bam! There we are. Right. The whole crew. The whole crew. Four kids. Right there. Yeah.

Two of them, three of them by IVF, one natural. Yes. Mistake. Both of my boys, IVF. Really? It's wonderful, isn't it? Yeah. So do you have fraternal twins or?

They're not. Although, you know, it's interesting. Are they from the same? Yeah, they're from the same. And the younger, I think, is older. Isn't that interesting? Yeah. Isn't that interesting? Yeah. Yeah. It's, um, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, uh, but, but, uh, I'm a different kind of father that I bet you are and most people are. I'm much more, I'm being honest now. I'm, I'm much more. I'm, I'm much more into them as adults than I was as children. Really? Yeah. As children, I love them.

I would die for, I would do anything for them, obviously. But I wasn't really the, I didn't like to go to the games. Luckily, they weren't into it. I wasn't really into the hours long of reading them books. Oh, I spent tons of time with them. I'm much more connected to them now than I. I was before. So as children, I guess I always felt, this is really wrong, I'm just going to say it, I always felt like they're not going to remember a minute of this. So it's going to really count

as their memories really become mature and I can really have a long-term effect of it. I know that you never heard a man, this is sort of a, you know, not politically correct thing to say. But I was, I was great. Okay. I was always there. But I didn't love the kid stage. I love the stage now, the after 14, 15, what I can teach them things. Oh, okay, that's it. So that's what you both love. I love that.

You can impart these lessons. Yes. From life. Yes. Yes. Because, I mean, I think I know a lot of things you do when their children form and inform who they become, but I really think it's sort of after 13 that they developed into the person they're going to be. And that's where I really started to, hey, let's talk now. Whereas when they were

six, I was going, okay, let's play catch. How much longer is this cat's going to go on here? You know, and then I remember sitting down my son's bed at 15. He was very not into school for a period of time and unfocused and didn't want to do anything. I said, what am I going to do with this kid? And I started to threaten him. You know, this life is not your life. This is our. This is our life. And I realized that, because I try to teach through kindness and I'm sweet. And so I thought, I did that. I go, that's not going to scare him into being a better human and finding his focus in life. So I walked in the next day. I go, I go, you like this life? He goes, I do. And I go, I do. And I go, okay, I'm going to teach you something. Ready? I'm going to teach you about money.

And he goes, what do you mean money? I go, we're going to talk about money for an hour. He goes, okay, tell me about money. I go, okay, assets, liabilities, mortgage, interest rates. And he was like, and I got him a stock account that you can get at Charles Schwab for your kids. Yes. And, you know, my parents didn't have any money. And Heather's parents had money, but it was verboten to talk about money. And, you know, our parents didn't manage their money as well when they got older.

I think, and so now I teach them, you know, money and the effectiveness of money. And, you know, money doesn't buy you happiness, but lack of money sure buys you on happiness sometimes. That increases. You know, my father literally this morning sent me a message around the importance of money giving you options. That's it. Yeah. That's everything. Yeah.

This is, this is it. I have a final surprise for you. Oh, you ready for this? This is. I hope it's a cat. I found the cat. This one is better than breast implants. Okay.

Okay, ready? Okay. Envaloke. I'm going on it. I would love for you to read that. All right. If you could. Terry.

I don't know I could read this. You've been in my life for almost three years. I stand by the fact that I've never met a smarter human being my entire life. Which is both incredible twiddish and incredibly infuriated to argue with. Who knew all those years ago that we would build this extraordinary life together, marriage, four amazing kids. books, podcasts, television shows, skincare lines, businesses, brand deals. And something to hell through all of it, it still feels like we're figuring it out side by side in real time. One of my favorite things about you is the enthusiasm you bring to absolutely everything you do.

You're like a dog with a frisbee in the best possible way. Laugh out loud. Once you sink your teeth into something, you refuse to let go until you've mastered it completely. That kind of drive is rare, and even after all, this time, it still amaze me to watch. What's even more incredible is your ability to evolve. After accomplishing absolutely everything you could have in general surgery and then plastic surgery, you pivoted and became board-certified obesity medicine because you were generally fascinated by and wanted to help people in a bigger way.

And then somehow, as if that weren't enough, you built this whole other career as a medical legal expert, completely immersing yourself in the law and all of its complicated layered nuances because you truly love learning and mastering new things. I think it's so interesting that our daughter Max originally thought she would follow your footsteps into medicine, but ultimately end up following you in a legal world instead. It makes perfect sense. Our children are a mix of both of us, but they truly got the best parts of you, your curiosity, your drive, your humor, your discipline, and your ability to care deeply about the people around you. You work harder than anyone I know, but you also laugh harder, dream

bigger, and love your family fiercely. There is something incredibly comforting about being married to someone so relentlessly passionate about life. We are so lucky almost 30 years later and somehow it still feels like yesterday. Thank you. You are amazing, by the way. You are. You are.

That letter is so beautiful. And to me, it is a depiction of who you are. You are so... You know what my impression is when I go back and tell me, my wife because she's the first thing she's going to ask me is not how I was she's going to ask me how you were right I'm going to say he's one of the most relentlessly passionate people about life that I've ever met I I don't know I just can't you know this has been I've done many things interviews podcasts TV shows this has been one of the most amazing experiences I've ever had

and I thank you for that I'm with I've learned so much from you. I've laughed. I've laughed so hard. I cry. I've learned you've taken me through every, every emotion. And I truly appreciate your time. Truly appreciate your time. I wish you all the best. When you and your family are in London, I want you at a such match. I'd love to. Oh, yeah. We were going to be right there on the pitch. Yeah. It's so obvious why you're so successful. You're such a amazing human being. Thank you so much for this opportunity. Thank you. Thank you. Now, you get the one final question. Everyone gets this. Okay. It is. You have had some incredible conversations in your life. Yes. When you think about the most memorable, who was it with? And what did you learn?

I mean, I, you know, I'm sure people say this. This is one of them. I know that's not the answer you're looking for, this is one of them. We accepted. Thank you. I think I had a conversation with my mentor, Dr. Malcolm Lesavoy, when I was a general surgery resident in his laboratory about being a doctor and being a plastic surgeon and what it meant. And he basically told me it's not about the surgery. Anybody can do the surgery. It's not about the money. It's not about impressing people. It's about what you can do with the skills that you've acquired through incredible amounts of hard work and then ultimately talent to make someone's life different, better than you possibly ever, they ever possibly thought it could be. And that's,

the power of being sometimes a plastic surgeon where you can take them to a place they never thought they could go and give them not only more confidence but potentially it's funny that I became the botched doctor an absolute new lease on life and that's and that conversation is ultimately what sort of structured informed me as a physician as a surgeon and a human So that. Dr. Terry Debrough, thank you. Thank you. Dr. Terry Debrough.

I'm walking away with understanding how dangerous these surgeries are, how dangerous, especially when we're talking about looks maxing, how incredibly dangerous that is, how important it is for all parents to be aware of looks maxing, what it does and can do to your children, and literally how deadly it could be. He had an assistant with him, and I asked her, what's Terry doing now?

Is he going back to the office? She said, no, he's probably going to work out. He works out seven days a week. And it's interesting. He practices what he preaches, and that's another reason why I have so much respect for him. He is by far one of the most fit, mentally sharp, bright, youthful, 67-year-olds I've ever met. I love him. I love him. You know, my wife arguably loves him more than I love him. But after this conversation, I could love him more than my wife loves him.

I'm not blaming my divorce on the real housewives of Beverly Hills. The truth is the biggest question I have is... Do you wish you could just hit skip on the worst parts of your life? You know, the same way you can skip an ad? I get it. I'm Siyaya and I live in Ice Cove. I've made some questionable decisions that didn't end up the way I planned. And today I'm still figuring it out.

Somehow things usually get worse before they get better. Apparently, that's how I roll. So bundle up and come along for the bumpy ride. Stream a new episode of North of North Tuesdays on CBC Gem. Spotify Ads Manager makes it easy to create your first audio ad in minutes for free. Sign up today, launch a campaign, and start reaching your audience. To reach where she was always going to be, or was I responsible for putting her in that world, and then that world created what happened now.

I can't believe we're sitting here still talking about it. It's just nonsense. I wanted money. I wanted status. But the madness hadn't started yet. What caused the implosion of everything that you had built? Me. They're casting for the housewives.

I'd never seen the show. Didn't know anything about it. But I believe that I had the most beautiful, charismatic, ferociously ambitious wife. And I wanted to show her off. I knew how to do it. So we did it. And the rest, unfortunately, is history.

They create these scenarios that just... F***in didn't happen. Are there any that you want to address? Suddenly, I'm looking at my wife and saying, who are you? Wow. Do you love yourself? Not yet. Are you proud of yourself?

Nope. Do you respect what you've created? Nope. You don't? The only real victims are going to be the kids unless we're fucking careful. So I'm going to do all I can to protect them. Maybe I do need a tool.