We Need To Talk with Paul C. Brunson - Estelle EXCLUSIVE The Truth Behind AMERICAN BOY “I Prayed For The Strength To Speak To Kanye!”

Episode Date: April 8, 2025

In this episode of We Need To Talk, Grammy Award-winning artist Estelle joins Paul for an unfiltered conversation about music, identity, and the power of self-belief. From growing up in West London to becoming the first artist to be signed by John Legend, Estelle shares the resilience it took to break into the music industry - and the self-trust she had to develop along the way. She tells the incredible story of how a chance encounter with Kanye West in a chicken shop led to the global smash hit American Boy. Estelle reflects on the personal losses that shaped her, the industry rejection she pushed through, and how she’s finally learned to trust her voice - both in music and in life. This is the real story behind American Boy - and so much more. Follow me here: https://www.instagram.com/needtotalk  https://www.tiktok.com/@weneedtotalkpod  Follow Estelle here: Instagram - https://g2ul0.app.link/YBqxXz8ThSb TikTok - https://g2ul0.app.link/CQK5GJbUhSb  (00:00) Intro  (01:50) Estelle's Childhood in Hammersmith  (04:40) What Values Did Estelle's Grandmother Instill in Her?  (06:22) Estelle's Family  (07:37) How Estelle's Parents Met  (09:04) Estelle's Relationship with Her Father  (10:09) How Did Estelle's Parents' Split Affect Her?  (11:22) Estelle's Experience of School  (15:28) The Beginning of Estelle's Career in Music  (27:31) The Differences Between Hip Hop and R&B in the USA vs. UK in the Early 2000s  (29:43) Estelle's Experience in the British Music Industry as a Black Female Artist  (35:53) How Estelle Met Kanye West and John Legend  (44:10) Shopify Ad  (45:21) Tinder Ad  (46:16) How Estelle Wrote 'American Boy'  (51:26) The Legacy of 'American Boy'  (54:53) Paul’s Favourite Estelle Songs  (56:48) When Did Estelle Feel Like She Was 'Losing It' During Her Career?  (1:03:43) How Did Estelle Learn to Trust Herself?  (1:06:44) Estelle's Relationship History  (1:15:59) Is Estelle Interested in Being a Mother?  (1:16:57) The Impact of Estelle's Grandmother's Death  (1:21:51) Estelle's Spiritual Beliefs  (1:22:46) Estelle's Role in 'Steven Universe'  (1:26:30) Why Is Allyship So Important to Estelle?  (1:28:53) Paul Tells a Crazy Story About Estelle  (1:31:03) One of Estelle's Wildest Moments During Her Career  (1:33:07) Happiest Moment of Estelle's Career  (1:34:49) Estelle's New EP 'New Direction'  (1:37:35) Paul, De La Soul and Estelle's Feature on 'Memories Of'  (1:40:24) Estelle's Forthcoming Book  (1:42:37) Most Memorable Conversation  (1:46:18) Paul's Takeaways  Sponsored by: Shopify: www.shopify.co.uk/needtotalk  Tinder: https://tinder.com/en-GB Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Look up. It's Kanye. I was like, dear God, if you are there right now, please, I need him to come outside so I can say something to him in Jesus name. And then Kanye walked right outside, and I said, one of his friends actually came up with the, Don't like his baggage, but I might like what's underneath them. And I was just like, okay, come on you, young sir. And that's it. It took us, like I said, 15, 20 minutes to hear it and left it and went home. Will there ever be an American boy 2.0?

There was a lot of, like, why are you even bothering? I have people who would actively say she's a waste of money and then be happening for me at the Mobos. I feel like the industry is like a death by 1,000 cuts. What was the moment where you felt like you were on the brink of losing it? Oh, goodness. I was performing everywhere I could. Any stage I could get to.

It doesn't matter the crowd. I'm having fun time. Behind the talent, they saw the passion. Were you the first person that John Legend signed? He literally started a label to sign me. He believed in me that much. I get off the train at Sandra Pais. It's like one in the morning.

I'm on stage at two. I drink half a bottle of vodka. My body wasn't working. Everything started slowing down. I get to a show and my voice don't want to sing. Is there anything that we have not yet talked about that you want to talk about? We just hit 100,000 subscribers. So if you are subscribed, thank you so much.

If you're not yet, please consider hitting subscribe. It's quick, it's easy, and it helps us grow our community. I've known you for 15 years. 15 years. And I've also watched a million. million of your interviews, but I'm going to try to go in a different direction. Okay. If I can't.

Shoot. Right? Because I really want to get into who you are behind the music, behind the career. And where I want to start is where you were born and where you grew up. All right. So where did you grow up? I grew up in Hammersmith. I was born and raised in Hammersmith.

I grew up in West Ken. I know that. I know that. My favorite theater is. Lyric. See? Okay, that's down the street from where I was born. Oh, really?

Yeah. And so that was like all our walking distance, schools there, lyric theaters, there, is there, Hamstrom Shopping Center's there, you know, that whole King Street. That was our stomping ground. That was where we were from. Yes. But my grandma had her house and my granddad when they first came here. And like maybe the 60s, early 60s.

Okay. Can I even ask you on that? Yeah. So your grandparents, is this from the Senegal East Side? Yeah, yeah. Now, all right, this is the nerd in me. Why did they come to the UK? Because I see that a lot of people who left Senegal would go to France.

Yeah. So why the UK? So my granddad, I think, came for work. And then my grandma followed. It was like, you've got to come join your husband. And my mom came. She said, I think, in 72, she was 12. And it was like the culture shock of culture shock.

She came in a puncher. still has it. She said she came in a poncho, the wall poncho, like to freezing London, like off the plane, like, oh, like crazy. Like, what in the world are we walking into? You know, and it was like a whole new home. For what she tells me, it was tough. Like, the thing wasn't easy. Like, there was a lot of everything you could think of from that era going on. The Teddy Boys, the racism, the, the, let's go be black people for no reason. All of that stuff happened. she could communicate so much with a look. Yes.

She was the funniest, the loveliest. You know, sit there and just bust it up for all times. But she had a moment where she would just look at you or look at whoever in the room, you knew exactly what time it was without having to say it. And I know that came from having to be in scenarios where you couldn't really, you know, because of the era, you were a woman in the 50s and 60s,

you had to be up under your husband. And then her husband was Muslim and she was Christian. And there was a whole other change over the day. That's interesting. Yeah. That's interesting. So would you say that your grandmother was definitely the most influential figure within your family? Yeah, very matriarchal family.

She was definitely the one. The one? Yeah. She left us early middle of last year. That was tough, you know, that was tough because I remember thinking, what am I going to do when she leaves? What I'm going to do? I know now. Yes.

But I remember the feeling. It was like, it was tough. It was a tough year. I'm sorry to hear that because that's recent for you. when you go back to you being a little girl, and you think about your grandmother, right? What values do you believe that she instilled in you? Okay, so, and I didn't know this at the time,

but I traced it back to her being a Libra. She's very much like, look good when you leave a house. Go back, go change. I think it was more for her, especially about, like, you're never going to tell me my kids look less that, you know? And especially again, you've got to think of the error, you know, like coming from Africa, you already looked at as like less than, you know, in those errors. And let's be truthful, like they were not the nicest of black. Well, they were absolutely racist and all the things.

And one of the things she told me, I guess, later that everyone's always like, well, finally you got racist. I said because my nan told me to, none to do with you people. Everything was blowing up. American boy was out. She was like, look at you look so pretty. Go get these fixed. Oh, wow. I said, okay.

Only because she told you. Smoothly. And this is the pride in the sense of self, my parents and family raised us with. They're like, you're good. Like, you don't allow other people to dictate what this is, you know, who and how this moves. Was it like this idea of if I show up correct, right, then I'll feel better about I have more confidence? It was some of that. And it was also like, why would you fight yourself?

Like, why wouldn't you want to look your best? Right. You know, if there's a thing to help you look your best, go do it. Go do it. Yeah, if it makes you feel good and it's not based on somebody else's stuff, go do it. Okay, all right, I love it. I love it. So it was a big householder.

It's huge. All right. So how many brothers and sisters for you? In my immediate, there are nine. And then I have cousins and nieces and nephews and there's so many of us. But my grandma had seven kids. And we're our own. I would say we're our football team.

We're our own best friends. You know, we're our own gang crew, you know. Yeah, I can see how close-knit family was. And I think also for a lot of immigrants, right, that family was everything because family was your support system. It was. And there's a reminder of where you came from, you know, especially if you're coming from places like West Indies in Africa,

seeing that person next to you who looks like you sounds like you feels like you understands intimately and without a shadow of a doubt what that look means, without having to explain it to anybody, is a whole other, you know, this invaluable, especially in the 80s, in the 70s and the 60s, you know, reestablishing yourself in another country. Yes, yes. All right, so what about your parents? Because their story is like a movie.

It is. It's a full- It's love is rock. It's love is right. Yeah, it is. The short version. They met. My mom was on a double date,

kind of like chaperone and my auntie's date at the house. Okay. And so my uncle had brought his brother, which happens to me and my dad. And my mom and him kind of looked at each other like, oh, hello. And got together. My mom was like, yeah, we met April.

Then you came along. I said, first date. Oh, really? Terrible. It's terrible parents. Are you serious? They were like immediate. Like essentially immediately.

I don't know the first date, but immediately. They broke up. Family members didn't approve of them being together in some capacity. It was stuff with that. All right. Can I ask on this? Because from what I understand is, it was your grandmother, the matriarch, who said, This is enough between you two.

Yeah. This is the thing that no one really talks about, which is a wild thing. There was togetherness, but there was certain angst and certain annoyances with the African community in the West Indian community. And it was like these West Indians, these Africans and it was a lot going on that was opposing them being together

per se. Some grandma was just like, it's enough. You know, like you can't come in or no more, this is enough. Like it was a lot happening between them. And it had nothing to do with them, more to do with everybody around them and their chat. And plus your father's from Grenada. Yeah, yeah. 20 years

later, they get back together. It It was, I met my dad randomly, like I was kind of thrust into the scenario when I was 17. And I was just like, I didn't ask for this. I don't know what this is. And what I love about my dad, me and him are gang now. But what I love about my dad is he was very, it was unforceful. He didn't be like, well, I'm young, he wasn't that guy.

Respect me, he was never that guy. He was always very much like, wouldn't you come? When we're ready, you know? You can look at it as it's poetic, it's romantic, but it's also tragic. Crazy. Because you think that, so how old were you

when your father and mother were really separated? And they were forced to be. Three. So you're three. Yeah. And I remember him talking to me against the door

in our grandma's house. And I remember just looking, I can see it in my mind's eye now. Like, he was just telling me he loves me and all of this stuff. And then I don't think I see him after that. And then the next time I see him, I was like at school.

And he had come to the school gates to say hi. And I was like, oh, it's that, like, you know. So the last time you saw your father, he's waving at you. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Just to say hello. Say her. I'm here.

Yeah. And then you don't see him for over 10 years. Yeah. All right. When you look back, how do you believe that separation impacted you as a little girl? The choices I made, the men I day is the rejection, the way I dealt with my friends, the way I dealt with my family, it was very much like, well, I just leave. I'll just be gone. I just, everything was just like, all right.

I read no explanations I didn't owe anybody any explanations and no one owed me any it's fine just be gone and I was comfortable dealing with people like that man it all ground to a halt

at 37 wow my voice and everything started failing me I want to say my body was just like you have things to work out of your system

and this is not going to continue for the next phase of your life so you continue that I'm out I'm done very abrupt exit it's all the way through most of your adult life,

and you feel like that stemmed from those early on. Absolutely. But you felt love. You knew what love was. You knew what support and trust was through the family. But then what was school like for you early on, you know, being here? It was a crew. Like, that's how I figured out how to sing is with them.

You know, we thought we were Jodacy. We thought we were SWV. We thought we were Mel and Kim. early days we thought we were any version of our R&B anything or soul or reggae that's who we were like we would go to school and be the ones in school like come on let's do the dance wherever like that was us right so on pepper was me and my cousin patient that we all were raised as sisters and brothers because we were all pretty much at my nan's house for a period so my cousins were my sisters you know like my like they're my brothers they're not they're not like

people's technical cousins or they live over there like that that's how I learned how to sing that's how I learned how to manage group this is how I learned how to manage myself around people is how I learned how to

be choir direct like early days choir director for a say like I knew all came from that it all came from that unit but it sounds like it wasn't necessarily you're thinking this is a profession it was just fun

it was fun and that's been the core thing up and down like as long as it's fun that's it all right I love it I love it

now school for you though because I would imagine you know being in London at that time was it a positive experience for you

it wasn't terrible for me but honestly it wasn't I would say I was light a lot you know like I was well liked

you know I don't know how to say that who doesn't want to like you well now sure I don't take it when it came from secondary school

we all moved it was a different space, space area or whatever. Now you're getting to see people from different areas and who weren't raised like you, who didn't do the, who had to have at the same baselines as you have. And you still have to be in the world

and represent the family. You know, like, who's smoking? I feel like I smoked for three seconds and was like, because my mom would always threaten us. If you smoke, look, I'm going to put you in the cupboard over the pack of cigarettes and make you smoke it. Wow. We never wanted that, it, right?

No. But that was a threat looming in our heads. if she catches me with smoke, oh, cigarettes. She's going to put me in the cupboard and make me smoke my cigarettes. And I love it because you've got a thing, like nine kids, you've got to figure away

to, like, keep them in order. So that was a good enough threat. She had a moment about me spoke of weed and then was like, so where do we that? No, that we thought. But it was like, my cousin P and me, we were like the group, the singers, the, they know what they're doing.

Okay. So we always had different. groups like what me and these girls are going to be SWV and I could do a four-part harmony myself so I'm just pick you you and you and we're going to be Joanie C this week and we're going to be it was all of that right that my my favorite class was music it was music it was music well music in English okay yeah English because I like to read like I'm a I will take my shoes and my books with me everywhere I go like I love I love to read.

Like, it's a thing. I would go to sleep with books under my pillow. And my mom would be like, yeah, you have a crook mat because you slept on a pile. Like, what are you doing? Stop it. Oh, but, wow. A books, yeah. It was a real thing.

Wow. I would get books every year for Christmas and be the happiest child of life. Like, not. I don't want a doll. I don't care. Give me books. Give me the anthology of Sweet Dally High. Give me the Hobbit.

Give me all of that. I was into it. You were into it. See, and this is at what age? Oh, goodness. My whole life. Yeah, what early teens were talking about? I'm talking like, I was...

Senior school, was it? 10-11. 10-11? 10-11, okay. 10-11. So think about that. 10-11, like, says almost no 10-11-year-old that they want books for Christmas. But I think that's beautiful, right?

Are you beginning to think professionally what you want to do? And is it music or no? No. It wasn't professional, like, Oh, this is... How will I say this? I don't think it was like, this is what I'm going to do for a living. And the thing that kept becoming the recurring factor,

the recurring theme in my head and in my spirit and in my life was, whenever you're singing, whether you're in your room, whether you're on stage, whether you're washing dishes, you are in another world. You know? It's not even escape. It wasn't escapism, even though. It was just like you were just euphoric.

Like you feel joy on a different level. So I kept doing it. doing it. I just kept being trying to look for that joy, that, that feeling, that euphoric, that, that, that pointer. Sure. Was it that white rabbit? Yes. You know? Yes. I was just like, this is the thing that I like to do. I really like doing this. And I do it pretty okay, you know? But how did you know you were doing it okay? Like, how did you know, were people telling you, you have a great voice or? Well, it started with rapping. Okay. That was a thing. People were like, oh, no,

I know you, it was a given I could sing. to my family, not to me, to them. They were like, yeah, she, yeah, all right? And my cousin would always be like, your voice is so husky. And I was like, but you sound like SW, you sound like Coco from SWV. I couldn't do all of those.

Like, and I was always like the bass note or the Mary J of it. Okay. It was just always that. I never really thought of that being the voice thing or that my voice was the thing. So I started rapping. I always did the raps too

because I don't know, I was just good at. it. So when I started going at it for real, after like several talent shows and we were trying to do it and my cousins decided not to do it, my little sisters was like, turn up, have fun, I want to do this no more, right? To the degree, you're like, this is boring, this is, we all, everyone just kind dissipated. I said, well, I'm going to do it solo then. And I would start hanging out at different ciphers and see all people, you know, people rapping. I started working at a record store called Dario and this one guy

was like, you, you rap a little bit, don't you know? I was just like, along to the songs, you know, and he was like,

you should write your own. You should, you should do them. I was like, he was like, no, try. I'm sure you can do it.

Like, you know, I feel like you can, his name was fallacy. And I went back, I went home and I wrote a rap and the next time I seen was like,

look, look, look, listen to my rap. It's like 18, 17, something, like 18, 19, he was like, like, see, like, you're good. Keep, keep writing.

Keep doing it. And then it was just, after the races, I was like, you're just, just, just writing. Writing wraps. Writing raps. But at that time, in the UK, so you're 1819, is there, are there any other rappers, especially who are women, doing their thing?

Yeah, it was. Who was it was? On the scene, it was, it was, tempo, wildflower, Simone and me. All right, so there's a crew of y'all who are rapping, right? But are you thinking this is a career, this is a profession? I thought I was going to be a singer. I was like, it always leads to being, just singing.

I didn't think rapping was a thing. So after a fallacy tells me to rap, like, just wrap these raps. I would go in all over mics and I would recite these raps that had written. I wouldn't even try and freestyle. I was like, I'm a great memory. This is what we're going to do. And if I freestyled, it was for eight bars. And I was like, and then we go to the pre-writons, please,

because I absolutely not. I am not Eminem. This is no, what's happening? I am not big, oh, nope. Well, I'm clear about my limitations. And so it was, but people would stand out. People would come and be like, yo, you stand out. You, like, this isn't normal.

I don't know any women that do what you do. I was like, yes, there's someone. So, yeah, that they do them, but you are different. Like, you're not forcing it and you seem. I was like, it might be right and so I was just like I would go into studios I would record any chance

any moment any any second I got to get in a studio anybody in right anybody in rap I was in there I would make the opportunities I would talk to producers they all came through the record store

I would go to the events they were all there and like I said I'm not I don't have a personality that's harsh or hard to you know to deal with it I didn't think so at the time either Some people might, I don't know

I don't care. You know, I go along with most people. So I feel like, yeah, I had great relationships, I want to say. And people were very open to being like, yeah, come on, let's try some things. So you're still 19 at this time. You're showing up talent shows. You are developing your skill. What also seems like what's happening is that you're getting a lot of validation. You're getting people who you respect saying you're special.

Yeah. So you believe this. that you were special, all right? Because now I know you, like, you're very confident. You're very confident. But it seems like the confidence was really seated with your grandmother, your mother, your family, but it's really growing at this point.

So what would you say is the break that you get in your music career, the first real break? Because it was a series, like, like, it went like that. Okay. What's the first? The first was I put my own record out just because. All right.

I had some CDs pressed up and I got some vinyl pressed up. That was like a big accomplishment, paper and everything. It was crazy. And that's in the UK? It's in the UK. Because you pressed it yourself. Like, are you handing it out? Or you're selling it?

Handing it, selling it, doing everything I could. Everything, okay. Not making anything. Oh, it's super in the red. Not thinking about it in those terms. It's like whatever. We're just going. performing it everywhere I could

Okay Any stage I could get to And that's where I learned how to perform That's where I learned how to like It doesn't matter the crowd This is going to be good I'm having fun time I'm still on the open mic circuit

I'm still doing shows popping up for people's things Lyrical lounge With Pogo and Ty Go rest of soul I'll go out to Ty and I was like You see me out here like He's like you still got to earn some stripes though And I was just like

Earned some stripes all right You see me All right, I earn the stripe. So he has me come up at one event he was doing elsewhere and freestyle, do my show. And after that show, he was like, all right, you did it. Come on to the next. We're going to put you on the flyer and come do the next lyrical lounge. That was like, law.

Wow, that's big on the flyer, too. Big. I'm on the flyer for Lyrical Lounge or jazz cafe? Yes. At the jazz cafe, like one of the main places you want to perform in the UK at that time. So I got to do Lyrical Lounge. I think I did my best show. I think I did my best.

I was very happy with it. And he was like, that's what I'm talking about. Like, you know, like sometimes you still got, you still, people are going to put you through the paces and you did it with grace. You weren't, even though however you felt, you weren't a, can I ask her something? Yes. You weren't a dick about the whole, like, prove something. Right.

You went and did the work. And I was like, yeah, because I want to do this. So I'm going to do the work, you know. So it wasn't a thought to me. It was just like, get it, get it done. So from that point. Black Twang called and I realized now that

it was like they had to kind of all of them had to speak and agree that I was the artist that Black Twang should work with they were all friends too and I didn't I wasn't thinking at the time I was just like well if you know I wasn't expecting a call from Black Twang

to be like be on my record or nothing he just called me like I've seen you at Lyrical lounge and you know I'm tired of them say you're really good and you're an artist and you're working I'm working on my new album you want to feature on this record like you young you're hot I was just like, I'll be there with bells on.

What time? How would you like for me to appear at the studio? Yes, you know. So this is your first big feature? This is your first feature. My second feature. Right before that, after Lyrical Lounge, I get a call from DJ Skits. Okay.

I think about it. I forgot that. I got DJ Skits calls and he's like, I'm working on an album, come down and put a verse on it. And I'm working. I remember maybe the day before I was working at, cause me a day before I was like, go I'm at work tomorrow.

I work at Mark Suspensis. Because we have to make money. Yes. So that's the full-time. That's my part-timeish. This is how I get money. Because my mom was like, what are we doing? You still live in the house.

What's happening? You're young. Get something together. And I left work. I remember running down in my work clothes. I had this gray jacket, great puffer jacket, like little.

middle belt had my scarf on. Everybody else would put their wraps down and I come in. And it was a thing to get the last verse on a record. That means you're the best one. I was like, oh, I felt be good. In my head, I was just like, oh, I hope this is good. And so I came in, I remember, I was like, now it's all over her fervilis who made it is.

I hit you up for lyrics after two hats of herphalist's ladies, specialist. What are you saying? You ain't know about me? You ain't heard. I was going. I was just going. I was felt like I was a...

In your marks is special. In my Marks and Spencer's outfit. And they were just like, I remember the reaction being like, geez. Okay. Well, damn, you know? I was just like, is it good? Like, you straight? They were like, yeah.

I was like, okay, well, I'll just go now. And then I went home. They're in North London, I live in West London. I got on the bus. Took myself home. And then they were like, come shoot the video. And I was like, okay. Found my outfit.

There was me and my sisters and my cousins and we was in the video. They were always around me. Like, they were always show up for that. things for me. And after that, between black swang and skits, they both kind of came out within a year of each other. It just went ballistic. Okay. And what year is this?

2001, 2001. Yeah, 2001, 2002. So they come out, you're featured on both. And that just, what, I mean, how has that uplifted you? There's more buzz about who you are. There's way more buzz. At publicist come. Her name's Angela. I see what you're doing, I want to help.

And she's like, you know, we're just work for credit. You know, like, don't worry about paying me. I'm building my chops, too. Okay. Okay. Thank you. Yeah. So this is the first professional that comes on your team, in essence.

So it's just you and the publicist. Me? No, I have a manager. Okay. He was in and now, he was doing his best, and, like, halfway through it, he kind of quit. He was like, it's a lot. But she stuck around. And then I moved to another manager, and he was good, too.

But his angle was he was a distributor. So that helps with when we're still pressing up records and whatnot down further down the line. So she comes in and she's getting me these magazines and these covers. She did a lot of work for a lot of years, you know. And she did get a job with a big agency because of it. So it worked out. I was very happy about that. But we between that, between then and then, we pressed more records.

We did more mixtapes. I sold those mixtapes. I was still at the record store for a while and then I left because it, it got pegged. I was like, I can't come back here every Saturday because I'm literally in Germany or France or doing shows.

So you're doing shows all throughout Europe now? All over the world. All over the world. All over the world. It's set for America. Okay. Interesting.

All right. Because you guys did not recognize America's a minute. You guys did not recognize British hip-hop at all and it was a struggle. It was that that was part of the early struggle.

I was like, you people. Can we spend just one second on that? Because I feel like, because at this time, I was living in the States. I was in New York. And hip hop was New York.

R&B was kind of New York. Atlanta was like, especially with Jermaine Dupree, so-so deaf, like that whole situation. Obviously, California, right? But I don't ever remember an R&B or hip-hop artist from the UK ever being talked about in the UK. What do you think that was? Was it just that we were just too big on ego?

No, it was just the dominant space of music. I don't know that it was ego because whenever they would come and they would have to come and do promo here, it was a lot of love. When I went, it was a love like, yo, there's loose ends, there's soul to soul, and they would start counting down all that, so they knew we existed.

And I was like, well, there's also damage, Misha Paris. And I would start running off all of Beverly Knight, Huffi, Heath, B, B, Searle, like David, like David, Lyndon, like I would start running off all the name. Craig David, there's all these people too. You should check out. And I've been that person.

That's partly what I had my show. I also met a lot of artists at the beginning of their career rap artists, like Moosef, like Slum Village. Oh, wow. Who came through? Who came through the shop, Dear Real. I met them at the beginning of their careers or like at least maybe a year or two in.

Oh, wow. Okay. So there was always that personal, you know, commonality. Later on, when I see them out, I'm just like, yeah, we know each other. We've been out here, you know. How many black women from the States, whether they be in hip-hop or R&B, were coming through the UK at that time?

Oh, my goodness. Rod Digger, Jill Scott, he's a soul child. It was only the big groups at the Destiny Childs, the like A. Marie's and those people that came over in that era. They wouldn't send the R&B girls to the UK like that, which was odd to me. It was never really a whole come and touch to people like there is now.

Yeah. And also too in the UK, then and even now is such a huge music market. Like in the research I was seeing, it blew me away. The US is the biggest market. Japan is the second biggest. And then the UK is the third, right?

In terms of domestic markets around music. So the UK, huge market. Lots of genres popping off in the UK. Incredible artists popping off in the UK. But when I look back and when I read and research, it feels like black women in music, there has been the lowest of low ceilings placed. And we've had Jamelia on, you know, when I look at careers like Ms. Dynamite's career. And I think, well, one is, is this is just me saying this? Or do you believe that there was a very low ceiling placed on black women in music?

in the UK? They just didn't expect us to do shit. And that's the frustration of it all because we had very high expectations and why not? The worthiness of my dreams is not based on anybody else's version of events, you know. So when I'm shooting for the stars, I'm going to go get that, you know, get out the way. It was always my thought. If you're not the one, get out of my way, let me go find the person, you know, let me go find the thing or let me go get to the thing myself.

But there was a lot of very much in your form. face like why are you even bothering? I have people who and black people who thought who would actively say she's a waste of money and then be at the shows clapping for me at the mobos. You know, to my face, two people around me. And I was like, why are you like you go away? Go sit out somewhere with your waste of time. So like it was a lot of like don't even, you're not as good as you're never going to be as good as. And I saw it being leveled at the black women who were trying things. And I think I came in by hip-hop.

So I managed to dodge some of it. Interesting. But even when I got there, it was still a good amount of people like, why are you bothering? What's your plan here? You've done it with the 18th day. Now, go sit down and go find something to do. I was just like, well, I ain't start with you,

so I'm for sure not listening to a thing you have to say. Yeah. But why was it so? I mean, I could come up with probably 50 different reasons, but you were in it. Like, why was it so? Why were people saying, you're a waste of money?

Why? I can't call it. I feel like it's self-hate to a degree. And I just, I don't, I don't know what anybody else has been through. And I don't like to call people's experiences shit. But, I don't know, I just feel like it's very weird to discourage somebody from dreaming.

It's very weird to do everything you can do to try and knock down their version of greatness. It's a very weird approach to have in life But there are a lot of people who do it I think and also I think they do it to be seen As like like cooling in the in the boys club Or in the crew of people who are You know whatever they want to be

In whatever department that they rep Or whatever label they rep Or whatever company they rep And it's just wildly just hate It's just being a hater essentially I can't call why I think there's just like a ceiling of like you've done enough or energy of like you, that's okay but don't go too much.

Yes. You know that? Yes. I remember her name when she did that poem in the Beyonce album. She was like, they teach you to just do enough. Like, don't be too much. But it's okay. Like, it's okay.

Yeah, just stay at that level. Yeah. And I was always, I believed and lived the exact poem my whole life. Like, why? Like, why do I have to stay at your life? Who dictated that? Like, what's like what's about doing me? Right.

That's your business. Is this one of the reasons why, or should I say, a main reason why, why you left? For sure. I saw, well, the main fundamental reason was I was signed to the US. I was signed in the US. Okay. After I asked the UK company to let me go.

Because I believe in myself, I signed to Atlantic US, and I didn't think anything of it more. than I was like, well, I guess I'm going to have to be out there now, you know. When I was with my label in the UK, it was a lot of support and equally a lot of like, okay, well, she's done it. You know, we gave it the shot. I think part of why they assignment was like to staying cooling on the cusp, it's a business, I get it.

You want to sign the hottest thing on the street. And at that time, it was like, yeah, she's the name. And even as much as I was the name, it was like, I would go to the labels and they were like, We don't get it. And then I see demo for any other British female or anything. And I'd be like, that sound like my record. And they pop, they blow, they're big in the charts. I'm like, I know I have something.

I know I have something. So the opportunity came for me to learn the business. And I realized the route I took was so that I could have a clear blueprint for my own career. Okay. Being independent, knowing how to do it by myself. knowing how to like do everything from press up vinyl to organize the interview knowing how to go and get it played radio watching and seeing all of the things couldn't have happened if I'd have just signed straight to a label okay and just pshu okay I had to go through all of that because I'm doing it now you know with my new album I've been doing it for the past 12 years by myself um by myself with my team yeah but but you're leading it I'm leading it yeah but I could never I could never I have the confidence to do that if I hadn't did it back then because they kept saying no. And then when they finally said yes and we had success, they still said no.

Right. I was just like, I'm sick of the no. No. But so early on, that deal, the first deal that you got in the U.S., that was, but that's on a major. Yeah. All right. So one thing that we have to say, though, because I think a lot of folks don't know the Roscoe's chicken story. And this is near and dear to my heart

because Rosco's, whenever I land in L.A., that's the first stop. You get off the plane and everyone's like, go to Rosco's chicken. It's the closest to Mollies. It's the closest to Nando's. Rosco's, right, at the time.

And so we were staying up the street, me and my home girl, it was Kanye's mixtape that you had out after this very first time we put our mixtape And it was just like, it was really, it was just like him, John, GLC, consequence, like. Okay, Chicago. Chicago, New York, like it was at.

And it was like one of my favorite mixtapes. I wanted to tell you, I used to just rock that 24-7 ice with me and my, I was in my, but I was in my, like, this is it. And I would listen to that ad noisium at the house. On whenever I was walking down the street, I was like, this guy's voice, I feel something with it. I just don't know. I just feel like we're going to do something good. if I could just find him like my boyfriend at the time

was like you smile so much do you know this guy he's like I love to see you smile but like do you know this guy and I was like I don't but look his voice makes me just feel good it's just a thing with his voice I feel it somewhere

like we're connected somewhere I don't know it just feels like church and it feels like home and I just you know that was a real thought and like I'm walking down the road

so I have my little Gucci slides on And my little short skirt Mark Echo It was just wild fashion It was a wild fashion Don't laugh And I go to Rosco's And I got my headphones in

And I'm like Look up, look to the right It's Kanye Just in Rosco's just Big chilling Eating food And I know my eyes widen So I just gather myself

I was like I want a carol C special I'll be I'll just be there She's like okay I can't get you I'm like I go outside and I do a prayer Did you? I was like dear God If you are there right now please

I need him to come outside so I can say something to him In Jesus name I just I just need to tell him I need to work with John That's all I need and please if you are real I need to make it happen in Jesus name Thank you amen Then I go back to listening to the record And then Kanye walk right outside

And I said oh thank you Jesus Hi Hello I'm still you know people I know because he had just been to London I heard the conversation was he's just been to London

he was working with so solid and you know I was just making buzz being in studio with different producers and I had just done a record recorded free with Mega Man so it was waiting to come out

and it was all and I was like I just worked with someone like you know blah blah blah anyway John Legend where is he he looks at me like

I got two heads he's like you know him I was like, yeah, I don't. But, like, I know his voice, he's really good. I don't want to do a record with him? He's like, all right, well, take my number, come to the studio. And my thing is, I think the confidence that I have been around different rappers and artists, I don't, it's not a thought to me, you know?

And so I go to the studio and I'm sitting talking to John because I'm a nerd, like, I read books and I'm definitely the computer girl, like, ooh, the newest Mac is out. So this is your first time meeting John, did not. with him. But sorry, if his voice makes you smile. But here's the thing. He doesn't speak like he sings. Have you heard of speak and sing? I've heard of, I mean, I've heard him like in an interview, yeah.

He was very self-spoken at the time. And he doesn't sound like, oh, when he speaks. He's very like, you know, and he's calm. Then he goes into his studio to sing, and me, Kanye's on the roller, going up and now record factory. And I'm

like, did we just come out here to get cookies wave John like what I'm just listening to him talk and he's like well you just man he was just talking to him I was like he so I felt like I blow my chance to ask him in that I was like oh damn it

so I was like oh oh oh let's go back in so we go back in and he's in the studio and we listen to the record that he's cutting and he's like yo you're missing this note and he's like you're missing this note

and he's couldn't figure out what the note was. So I sang the note for them. And I was like, I did that note. And I was like, it's there. And I'm like, I'm just, I know what I'm doing in the studio. So I was like, it's probably turned down. It's, it's this note, right?

And he's like, yeah. And I was probably turned down. It was like that one's. And the guy had muted it. Okay. And they look at me like I got three heads because of why are you telling us what to do? Who the fuck are you? What the hell is happening?

I'm just like, I know what I know. Okay. And I'm not afraid to like say it. So let that sit. And he's like, he comes. down. I was like, yeah, I didn't realize. Hi, I'm a stelle, by the way, and I have this record. I really want you to sing. And I'm like, all right, it's a play. So I played it to them. I came prepared. I have pre-recorded a version of Hey Girl.

Okay. And I did his vocal. That how I wanted him to sing it. Because again, I'm studying. I'm listening. I'm like, he's going to be so great on this record. And he heard it. And they were like, all right, just leave it with us. Like, but we fuck with you. You cool. Like, you know, I was like, all right, thank you. Bye. I got my. business go home we stay in touch on email and he hits me he's like yeah can you say i can do it you know like it's no beef on that like it's no issues the label do their thing but he likes you know he liked the record he said do it if i want to and i was like what do you want to and he's like yeah i was like cool i said well when you back in london when you come to london he said well i'll be over

there because we finished my album we're signed da da da da da da da he comes over we go studio he knocks it out we will eat chinese food and then everything that's that's how the relationship That's how he goes, yeah. And we stayed in touch because it was music. I think his thing was always like, your melodies are second to none. He has me come out on every single tour date, show day. I'm always, and he's always like, where you come, come be a part of what we got when we're here. And I don't know if the label saw this or cared.

But the A&R, at the end of the project, when I'm getting ready to start the new record, I was like, well, John wants to help me co-executive out of my arch, John to do it. He says, absolutely, I'll do it with you. I told him Joan What's to do with me And they told me They asked me who he is And I want to punch a wall

It's like Let me go please Because this is before This is before though No this John Legend at this point Has gone platinum Oh what He's

He's on every magazine Cover you could think of He is the John legend And they're still asking you Who is he Who? Yeah And I said let me go

I was like Let me go Let me go now Let me go from the label I don't care. Because you don't know it on the same page. But it sounds like they're really saying they're aware of him. They're just saying.

We don't care. We don't care. We don't care. Who do you think you are? Who do you think he is? Yeah. And that's the energy that I felt, you know. And you saw it as a whole system that you didn't want to engage with.

Engage. So that's really, that's by you go to the U.S. Yeah. Or it's by me to tell John, I might be leaving the label. and him said he said to me I'll sign you oh wow I was like you sure you know I work you know I'm not one of these

what was it I'm not one of these Saturday like I go to work and he was like yeah come on yeah sign were you the first person that John Lett you sign he literally started a label to sign me to he believed in me that much he got it he was like I see you working and I know I'm just along for the ride but I help you

I was like thank you that's incredible you know Because I see that you've been receiving that, though, throughout all those, the growth of your career is the validation and people immediately seeing the talent. But behind the talent, they saw the passion. And that's probably really what connected John Legend to your work. I believe it. I hope you won't mind that we're taking a quick break from this conversation to talk about my show sponsor, Shopify.

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Kenya's later now I was joking But you wanted this though You wanted a song that you could sing to the end of time Any country in the world Any city in the world I have a few of them thank God Come on now What'll you do it won't you do?

When do you write? I write that in 2006 Okay, so you're in the States. Yes. You're signed to John Legend. And Atlantic. When he's like, come to Miami. I've got sessions with What I Am.

I got some shows out there. Come on. Cool. Well, they set up a session with Will I Am for me to be there too. And he plays... He plays the bass of it. Not the intro, just the... Like, the baseline of it.

And he's playing that whole thing. He starts running the track. And I was like, run that back. What is... What is that? Okay. He's like, I don't think I said, no.

I said, if this isn't a hit, you're going to make your money back because I'm going to I'm going to make you your money back. I'm going to go take this record. We're going to release it in Ibiza. I had a whole independent plan for it. I was like, it's going to be good and perform it. Just Ibiza. That's it.

Just in Ibiza. Iron Apple love this, okay? Because I know this. It felt like garage. It felt like that vibe. Just like, what have you been doing out here? here. And I'm like, I went on the beach, because why you've been recording? I've been enjoying myself.

Okay? I've been in having a time. These guys loves me. These men love me. And I've been loving the man. This has been glorious. And he's looking at me like, such a child. I'm just like, absolutely. Like, I'm going to have a good time. He's like, we'll come on. Let's write the record. And he puts in, this time he did the melody. It's like, you know, like,

da, da, da, da. And I'm like, yeah. And I was like, da, da, da. We back and forth on the different things. And then we filled in the words. One of his friends actually came up with the... We was like, don't like his bag of you. But all my like was underneath them. And one of his friends said that,

and I was just like, okay. Who are you, young son? Like, what is this? Anyhow, our vocal, a demo vocal with everyone in the room. And we're like, this feels special because it felt fun. It was genuinely, we were just in there, like,

talking shit. Yeah, just having a good time. Having a good time. And then John leaves, you know, I stay in Miami a couple of days and I re-vocle it. It took me all the 15 minutes. Wow. I did the biggest smile on my face.

I was just having all the joy. I was just like, and but he gave me notes on it. It was like, you know, when you sing it, like, be bright. Like, I was just like, oh, that's easy. Yes. I can channel Holly from Heidi High, like all the British comedies and all the fun Dixie. Blah, la, la.

I was like, that was my channeling. And then we'd have all these conversations about the motel eyes and what made them great. And that was our other thing. It was music. And one of the things about the Supremes that no one really knows is like Diana Ross was put in the front. This is so the story goes. Diana Ross, I'm sure we'll say something different. But she's put in front because her voice was light.

It wasn't so gospely. It wasn't so black. Right? And, you know, so the idea was like, well, just do a lighter version of the rest. record, sing it lighter. You know, like... Oh, that was a jealous note to you. Yeah, he was like, you know, sing it light.

He said, remember the Diana Ross? And that was the conversation we had. And I was just like, yeah, let me try. Let me try. So when I sang it, I was like, I was in my Supremes. I was in there like, to me on, I like to go somewhere. I was really like, I was really doing Diana, like, you know,

in my head. Oh, wow. And I was giving Polly and they're like, I really want to give you. You know, like going. Yes. Now, I see it. I see it.

Exactly. Think about how she would do like, Yeah, Herrie, love, like, and oh, you just have to, the shoulders and the, you know, the decalitage, like, the whole, like, that was everything I was given. And so all of that intention went into that record. And it was just fun. It was the whole point, it was like, I kept saying in the booth, I remember that I'm like, this is going to be fun. People are going to have fun to this. This is going to be so joyful, you know, like, this is it.

And that's it. it took us like I said 15, 20 minutes to hear and I left it and went home. That's the only point that almost feels disappointed to me, too. Look, but it takes you 10 to 20 years to get to 15 minutes, okay? It takes me 10 to 20 years of studying

of practicing the house of singing every minute I got annoying every single person around me, annoying myself. Yes. Like stretching my vocal, like training myself to sing octaves that were not natural to me. You know, bronchitis, laryngitis, It's traveling, body folded over.

I'm burling my body, getting in the studio, singing, figuring out to be 15 minutes and perfect. Yeah, it's incredible. In the research, I mean, you know this better than me. It was number nine on the Billboard Hot 100. Obviously won a Grammy Award, Best Rap, Song Collaboration, four times platinum in the UK, exceeding 2.4 million copies. in the UK alone, five times platinum in the United States. Just like...

Good time. It's a good time. Yeah. It's a good time. It just felt like he was buoyed by such good energy and goodwill, too. And it lives forever. You know what's so profound to me about American boy in particular is that, so I have a 14-year-old and 11-year-old. Yeah.

Right? They know that song. Yes. They know it A matter of fact I got the most number of cool points with them ever Because I was like You know I've got Estelle coming on in the podcast

They said you've got Estelle I was like I know Estelle We go back like 10 plus years They were like Dad Why did you tell me You know Estelle Because here's the thing My sisters feel the same about you by the way

Yeah they came to your They come to your talks They're like Oh they had a whole I was like yeah They showed me pictures At one of your talk They were like

We were at the panel I was just like, all right, did you get clothes? Tell them, I said hi. Yeah, I know. I was like, but isn't this, it's wild. Yeah. It's wild. But the song, though, is, by the way, tell your sister, I said hello.

I would. Yeah. They're going to see this. Yeah. But the song, the fact that it is so profound to them, that means that it's, you got this through time. It's trying. And the TV, Kathy Sledge, who I grew up looking at on a wall with my parents. was on FaceTime with me in the Panini.

First of the way, I'm just, I call it the pinini, the pandemic. She was like, come on my show. And I was like, when would you like me there and with bells? I'll be there, you know? And we get on Instagram Live and she's like, that's a forever record. It's like it is. It is. Like yours.

Yeah. Like yours. Like the many you have. Like the many. Like the many you have. Thank you. You know? Will there ever be an American boy 2.0?

No. You didn't even give it a second. No, who wants that? No, no. No, who wants that? I want that. You know what? All right, so let me give you this.

I gave them that, and it wasn't me who wrote it. It was me entertaining the idea from the label. Playing ball, as a song called Fall in Love, which I still like. It's beautiful, melodic songs, really cute. And I love singing it. But they didn't want it. It was like, it was all intents of purpose. If you go look it up, it's a song called Fall in Love, it features.

John Legend, Annie Beaches Naz. I have a record with Nas. John Legend and Nas. And nobody wanted that record. They didn't play it. They were like, eh, it's not American Boy. I was like, well, because American Boy is American Boy. Can I just do what I came here to do that?

Yes. And then we moved along and thank you. And then, you know, and here we are. Continue, Conqueror. One love. One love. Freak. Like, you know.

Yeah, obviously. I don't think that's your only forever record. No, no, no. There's a few. Let's a couple. Let's a couple. I got a couple. 90 will forever be one of the ones in the UK.

I came out and I sang it the other day and I barely had to sing it. And that made me feel like, thank you, man. What would you guess my favorite is? Or one of my favorites? Come over? I mean, how do you, when is, why did you know that?

Because it is, it's my favorite. Jamaica. Yeah. Yeah. I think it's one of the best songs ever, ever. written. Thank you. Ever written.

Thank you. I probably play that song once a week, every week. So when you look at your streams, most of those are me? Thank you. Thank you so much. Thank you. I appreciate that. That's one of my joints, though.

Oh, my gosh, man. Like, all you need is that, and it looked like, actually Sunday is my favorite day to play that. Yes. Yeah. And it's another intentional thing. I make records for your life. I don't want to just make it for the minute.

I want you to be able to be like, I hover the first. floor playing this. I was in the bathtub to this. I was washing dishes to this because this is what I do. And so I always want to make records that sit in that pocket for people. I never want to just be the hype, the pop, the whatever. I want to make records that

you're listening to the words and you're feeling what I felt when I wrote it. Yes. What I love too is that you could listen to it with the family. Like, you know, you know, you know sometimes, some music you just have to. This is me in the car by myself.

Exactly. This is outside. This is outside music. Yeah. But yours is inside and outside music. You know, and I think that's beautiful. Thank you. Right.

But now, all right, if I'm just looking at the career, because I know we've only really dissected one song, but obviously you've multiple albums. But I know that you're working on a book. Yeah. And the book is really how you've dealt with the music industry and really kept your sanity. Yes.

So that is something that I see is. is incredibly challenging for all artists. And some of them are not able to keep their sanity. There's a time. So when you think back throughout your career thus far, because you're still early in your career. Thank you. When you think back, what was the moment

where you felt like you were on the brink of losing it? Oh, goodness. I think maybe 2011 right before Thank you came out and all of me, like after. shine. I allowed myself to move in too many different directions. There were all these things that you're supposed to get, you're supposed to do, you're meant to be, you're supposed to be this by now, and you're supposed to be that by now, and this is what's supposed to be happening. And this is how this is meant to be, and why aren't you doing the thing? And it was like every millisecond of every

day had one of those questions in it. It got manic for a while. It was a couple of like, my usual responses, lock you off, switch out. I'm not doing this. You got a go. I got a go. I'm really gone. Peace out. Whatever you want to think of me, I don't give a damn. I'm gone. And part of it was surviving. And the other half of it was, yeah, some of you didn't deserve my presence. You know, I have to go. This is crazy. Like, the fact that I let you speak to me after the way you spoke to me. You're talking about in the industry. In the industry. It was nuts. You know. Can you give an example? Because, for example, we had a, we had Sher Lloyd on the pod.

And she was talking about, my gosh, she talked about how she was married, went to L.A., the record label told her. Don't be married. No, told her, you could stay married, but we want you to go get with Justin Bieber. Here is where he's going to be in the club. And we don't care that you still married, but you get with Justin B. I was like, I can't believe it.

Yeah, probably. So I can imagine, but what do you think about? What's a moment where you just thought it was a ridiculous ask or a ridiculous request? Now, there wasn't so much a ridiculous request that I feel like the industry is like a death by 1,000 cuts. You know, like there was little inferences, like little digs, little moments, little pokes at what you shouldn't, shouldn't be doing, who you shouldn't and shouldn't be seeing. They'll talk to your boyfriend and then he comes to you with some craziness. And then there's a singer, another person, another artist, and there's another producer, and then there's people closest to you, and it just always just, it got nuts.

I was very open, and I still am to a degree, but we're better discernment because, you know, we grow. And that was a process in itself that had to figure out. I think everyone kept coming at the idea of keeping it real. The most valuable thing to her is she likes to act like she's regular. She likes to be with her people. She likes to, so it was people. It was the people around me. It was the, it was the demands of my time on what I should be paying for this

and who I end the expectancy of me always being one to take care of everything and everybody. And that's a common theme, right? And then it, you know, while I've taken care of everything and everybody, in the very next room was a conversation going on about me and all of my business. Okay. with people that I trusted and respected,

or people that I trusted to hold me together. And nothing was being said to defend me, you know, nothing was being said to be like, well, hold on, give a perspective, you know, in the same way that I would for them. And so I found that out and I was like, hmm, it's been fun. It's been fun, you can no longer reside here.

You know, and that left me by myself and having to figure it out again with another group of people. But the point, when I realized it wasn't, It wasn't even about them, it was about me. Okay. It's about the energy that I was giving to the world and whether I felt worthy of everything that I had worked for. And why I kept just give, if I did feel worthy,

why I just kept giving it away with no consequence, with no boundary, no anything to it. Yeah. It kept throwing just giving to people. It was wild. But it sounds like you didn't feel worthy. I didn't. Okay.

And it was the 2017 break was like the final straw in that. For me, it was like my voice, my body wasn't working. Everything started slowing down. I get to a show and my voice don't want to sing. Like, it literally was like, ah! Like, and I was like, this is not what I'm used to. What is happening. Like, and I, you know, I made it through the show, but then after that, I was like, all right.

This is, and now I go to the doctor and he's like, he's stressed, but it's nothing here that should do that. And so for me, it was like, okay, I need to see a therapist. It's internal. It's got to be someone. Wow. And so it was just like understanding how to manage that, how to not just throw away, be a good steward with the blessings, you know, instead of feeling like I was obligated to everything and everyone because of my success.

It was like a double-edged sword. You done so well and we've carried you there, so now you owe us. And I felt, I believed that as though nothing I had done was because of myself or because of my own fortitude or because of me. and God. It was just like me, God, and now I owed 50 million, 11 people who just decided that they were a part of this. So now, you know, as though the paycheck wasn't enough, as though the thank you wasn't enough, although as though the I'm going to refer you wasn't enough. It was like, now I need you to forever be in debt to me. I was like, I don't have to. Yes. So what was the big lesson from the therapist that helped you to regain your life? Trust. Trust myself. My confidence

is one thing, but trust is another. the decisions you make aren't from just out of the sky like it's here it's your core it's the holy spirit it's the truth you know and i made those decisions and i made those decisions and i would catapult forward and then i get forward and then i start to um and are and overthink the scenarios and calling advice because you're supposed to call in you know somebody might know better than your spirit but at the time based on the way that at core I was raised, right, the family dynamics, based on the way I was raised socially, based on the way I came up,

I'm supposed to always have a thing or a person other than myself to validate, right? I had to knock that out. I had to knock that out with ferociousness and with niceness and with grace. I had to tell myself, it's okay, you get the right thing. Like, it's a freak, and it's a journey.

You know, this stuff is a journey. Every layer you peel back, there's another version of where you've done it. And you have to be like, okay, girl, it's okay, it's okay, you're safe, you know? Really tell yourself that. Is there anything you've done in particular to learn how to trust yourself? Because that's a position that so many of us are in. I get still. I'm quiet.

I love being by myself, physically by myself. I used to think it was weird when I would be the person standing in the corner in the club. and perfectly fine. People would be like, why are you, what are you doing? Like, you just,

why aren't you dancing? Why aren't you like up and being in the mix and being social? I'm literally just having a, the time of my life listening to music, listen to whatever they're playing.

With yourself? With myself. And it was like, people had so many issues with that. It was just always the poking point. You're so quiet. You're so, yes.

Yes. And now I'm like, yes. I am. You okay? Have you ever been quiet? you should be quiet right now. You know, like, get away from me.

Go there. You know? And I love it. I love, because it gives me a chance to hear. It gives me a chance to be with myself, clear, up and down. I love it. I think that many people have an issue with silence, and it's because of, you know, the thoughts and the ideas that wrap around in their mind.

And I notice that also people have a tough time being quiet with others. You know, what I love with a couple, and I've reached this point finally with Jill, is being quiet together. Yeah. The dopest feeling in the world. Oh, my God. You don't have to fill the space. No.

Let it be. Yes. Let me be in service to myself and shut the fuck up. Yes. And pray about what's going on in your situation. Or listen to a megahertz frequency, quiet your mind and go to sleep. Even if you are mindlessly scrolling, right? And I understand it's not the best thing to do,

but even if I am sometimes, guarantee 70% of the time I have my headphones on with a frequency ranging from 432 to like... Oh, look, just a frequency. Really? Just have a frequency play. That's a good time. That's like the best music. What does the frequency do?

It just, it quiets the... It quiets my brain down a bit so that I... Or even my, I feel it in my body too. Like, it quiets my physical body down sometimes, especially when I've been moving from pillar to post. Like, I'm having a heavy promo day. I'm talking to every version of news or whatnot. Afterwards, I'll go and I have, like, my Buddhist bowl.

Okay. And I play that or hit it three times and just allow it the sound to kind of, like, settle my heart. I recommend it to everybody. It's on YouTube. Like, go have it. I take what everyone says, and I try to apply it to psychology and say,

how does psychology work on this, right? But it makes sense because it sounds like what you're doing is you're regulating yourself. Self-regulation. Right. So it's self-regulation, which is a big issue that we have. But now one of the quick ways of regulation is co-regulation. It's someone else.

Yeah. And one area that is to, I've never really heard you expand on. That I would love to spend a little bit of time on because we have a little bit of time. Let's see. Are these relationships? These are still in relationships. Because, can I say, you are great at keeping your relationships on the love. You know, I don't talk about it.

You don't talk about it. No, but I can say some things because I think it's important. You know, I think it's important for people to, well, understand me, because I put so much of relationships in the songs. I just don't talk about pointing names out. Yes. And I don't think it's fair. I don't think it's fair on whoever I'm dating for me to be like,

and this is the face to the name of this. So everyone go have a time about that with them. Not like, that's mad. And that's, I'll get that back. I don't want that. I heard you say something earlier. You said that you are dating. Yeah.

So does that mean that you are dating in a... In florals or just in words? Yes. I am dating. That's it. That's what we got. I just told you. I don't talk about this stuff.

Again, like, no. So you're dating? Yeah. Actively. Yeah. So that means that then is it a green light if someone listening watching said, oh, my gosh, this means that. He's like, can I match me? I can slide in a DM?

Can I sign the DM? Yeah, yeah. Is that a green link to slide it? No, no, please don't slide in my DMs. I trust God to lead, but the DMs is not where I ask him to send them. I do not respond to the DMs. You don't? No.

You know how many relationships? Don't live in that world. I don't live in that world. My DMs are fun. Like, I have a lot of people that like, hey, sexy, Estelle my bell, I can be your American guy. It's a lot. And it's always like, you know.

Like, yo, no, I'm straight. Straight, okay. You want a, you want a introduction. That's what you want. Yeah, I'm a, let me see. Because I'm, and I was, I would, like, read the energy and the person's vibe, you know. Like, I do that with friends. I did that with people like me.

I don't, I'm a sacred space here. I don't like to just be. Yeah, no. Yeah, that's what, I do respect that. You have kept that. You've like, this is, this is private. Mm-hmm. And you're not going to get this.

No, this is for me. Yeah. I trust that. I'm cool about that. In the lyrics of, thank you. Mm-hmm. Oh. Which, by the way, you performed at my book lunch.

I did. Which I appreciate that. Way back in the day. I had a great hairstyle. It was crazy. Oh, my gosh. The whole look was, it was excellent. He was a fever sometimes.

Thank you. But I wrote down the lyrics here. Go ahead. These tears I cry sure won't be the last. the pain inside, which never seems to pass, it never seems to pass me by, so I thank you, said, I thank you, yes, I thank you,

for making me a woman. And you know who wrote those lyrics? A-Con. I'm honest. It made no... At first, I had to get past a shock. Are you serious? I had to get past a shock that it was A-Con.

And then I was like, he has some wives. He understands. He understands women in a different way. like there's a, he understands A-Conn wrote this? Thank you for making me a woman. Acorn wrote that. He wrote that record for a female artist.

The label sent it to me like, This record. You guys sing it. And I was just like, no, I don't want to sing this record. Again, I'm very private, but it felt like that was what I was going through on repeat.

Every man I had dated since maybe leaving London, before leaving London, like, it was just like, it was just the repeat of in different bodies, in different scenarios, there was another woman, there was another scenario, there was cheating, there was trust issues, there was resentment, there was, you're doing this and I'm not doing that issues.

And it was just on repeat, so I felt like that's all that, that's what it was going to be, this is what happens. And I was like, I don't want to sing this record because worse mean things, okay? Yes. Worst mean things, and I'll go sing this record. And the guy was with at the time, was literally, that was what was happening. And I wasn't really aware.

Crazy because he encouraged me to sing it. But honest. But it was more about, like, he felt like the label were going to drop me if I didn't, and he didn't want to be out of a job or whatever what was happening. And he used to work with me in my band. That's, I thought, that's whatever.

And so it was a lot. Like, I didn't want to sing it. I just felt like, oh, this is admitting the truth. This is saying what's actually happening. is, I'm not ready for people to know me like that, because then that would make me feel weak, and that would make me feel like, you out here getting cheated, just like the rest of us,

you know, ego, you know, a lot of that. I sang it, and I cried partly because I didn't want to sing it, and partly because it fucking felt freeing to be able to say it. Say it, yep. And then everything came out after the fact that we broke up, and so I had the song to go on tour and therapists with. And every time I sang it, I think I got halfway through it,

I would take a full of my jewelry and throw the shit down because I couldn't feel it. You know, I felt like I was numb after singing it for a while. Oh, my band were like, here she go. You got that one, you got that one. Like, that ring is over there.

And, but the feeling I would have to walk off stage pretty much every time after I sang it because it was overwhelming. It was just like a... Wow, that's incredible. Yeah. And so I realized, okay,

it's almost like, every time I say it, every time you confess the truth, it comes out of you, the lie of it, you break it, it comes out of you, like, someone like you sweat it out, right? And then I got to a point where I done all the therapy and done the things and got over it, and I was like, I'm not sad about singing this record anymore.

And literally, in that space, I start hearing a New Orleans bounce version of it. So now I sing thank you. And I do it to New Orleans belt because I have your hair shaking my butt, like, what's that? Yeah, it's a celebration now. Exactly. It's like a, yeah, that was, thank you for getting me through that since.

So that was one relationship that led you to have, you carried that pain with you. It was one, like maybe I was 25. Were you in love? I thought I was back then. Yeah, with that version, yeah, for sure, I was in it. Like, I'm a relationship girl. Like, I'm like a, we're in it. We live together.

We're like, we're in it when I'm in it back then. And I did too much. You know, I think about it, I did too much. And too much too early, you know. I think it was also because of a, well, part of it was moving to the States, you know, like being in the States, like, and having to find family, find people to be around. Oh, because you were alone. Because that was just me. It wasn't like anybody else.

I was like, find a rock, find the anchor. And it was when you're the anchor, wherever you are is home. You know, wherever I am, it's home. Yes. You know, and that's the baseline. Yes. Didn't know it then. Yes.

You know? So when you think back to the relationships that you've had throughout your life is, do you feel like you have ever been loved? Yes. Yeah. I have. Okay. I have. I wouldn't allow it with one guy.

And that, well, that calls some things. We're both children, for this in mind. It wasn't like we were like 28 and 30 and. like had life experience with early 20s. But to him loving me, man, okay, do your career, but now I want to have a kid. And I was like, no. No, that can't happen, you know? Because of your career.

Well, because of the examples I'd seen. My mom worked a lot when she was, when we were growing up a lot. And I always put in my mind, I want to be able to, A, afford them without having to, like, work as hard as she worked. And I want to put no extra on her by how. having a baby and then being like, well, I'm going to go do my career. Here go to baby. I didn't want to do that to my mom, you know. But he was very, you know, I didn't see him as an option of the father.

Like, sir, you barely have it together. How are we raised this child? Like, you can't take care of the baby. My mom's going to have to take care of the baby. No, you know. And so that was a breaking point, you know. And I was like, you know. But I understand his version of love at the time and what it meant.

It was for me at that time, it was great until it wasn't. Yes. You know, I think that that is very mature. Now. Very mature to say, you know, this situation is not right to bring a child into it. You know, I talk about this with a lot of guess, you know, this whole idea of conscious parenting. And that begins before you have the child. Way before.

Right. And you were there in that zone. But being a mom. Is that something that you've wanted? I have and I do still. I'm open to it, however it comes, whether next year I have a child or whether I adopt. And I'm so grateful to be alive in a time

where you can have a surrogate. There's ways, you know. But I also think I've been a mother to so many people, so many kids my whole life. It's, you know, I think you get it in different ways. Okay. Yeah. Okay. But for you to

You're open to it Are you open to it? But the prerequisite is you want to have a partner first? Yes, for sure. I don't want to do this on my own at all. My mom is still a resource for me. My dad is still the person I call. You know what I mean?

So give me context. Right, right. And I would like to be that with a partner. I don't want to do that by myself. Right. It's interesting. You talking about that, how you still rely on them. I could see now the void, you know, that that was put in your life when you're, when you're NAMBASS.

Yeah. Yeah. Because I would imagine she was that too. You were calling on her. Well, she sang me happy birthday. It was the last time we saw each other on my phone. And I told you I'm bored for maybe half the day. It's maybe a year before she passed.

Oh, crap right now. But there was a, like, I just think about her entire experience. And I wanted more for her. I wanted to have more. I wanted to have to see. But this was the journey she chose. She was brave, man. She was really brave.

You know, you're going to do something. She was one of the ones, you know? And I think about that, and I think about the women that she came from, and I think about my life. And I think about the fact that I am her boldest dream. I lived in a whole other country like she did. I built community like she did. Like my granny would go and fix curtains in people's houses when they first came over

and lay carpet and lay floors for people that couldn't call the handyman because they weren't going to them because they was black. So my grandma knew how to do some things and she would go and help other women build their homes. And, you know, I'm living the things that I know she saw for herself that she wasn't able to do. You know? And I just think to myself, that's a blessing. That's a wild blessing to even, you know? So I'm not happy about it.

I'm just like every time I think about that, I think to myself, there's no version of me that I should ever not trust. There's no version of me that needs to play small. There's no version of me that needs to entertain thoughts of mediocrity because she ain't going through all of that for me to do this.

No. You know, I get chills thinking about her. Mm-hmm. Because I think, think when you say you are her wildest dream it's almost like you're beyond her wildest dream yeah she she would be like how is how is she doing like I broke my foot maybe a couple years ago

and she had Alzheimer's intervention back when she was leaving us and my mama told her and my mom was like you know she asks about your foot every other week you know they can't remember a short term and she asked about your foot every other week like how was your foot doing how's your back, how's everything working with your body? I was like, why does she know that? Why does she remember this?

Like, why is this a thing? And it just is a thing in your mind. Like, don't forget who you are where you came from and that somebody loves you and will love you for eternity. The spirit is with you, you know? So, you know, I'm crying again. But that really is that. And so, like, not every decision is from that,

but that's part of the confirmation of trusting myself. Yes. You know? Yes. It's profound. That's going to stay with me. You know what it's going to stay with me too with what you just said is that it's with you forever.

Yeah. Yeah. She never leaves me. Like, she'll pull up on me in a second. I have a beautiful garden at my home. And it's part of my personal ritual and part of my thing. I pray for a gorgeous garden because I like spending time. I'm at a sign.

I like being in the trees. And when she was leaving maybe three days before she really left, It was like a butterfly came and almost hit me in the head A big one It was like huge I thought it was a bird And I was like I freaked out And then I got still

And I was like she's leaving So she's gonna go I spent a few more minutes out there And then My mom calls like two days later Like she's leaving her, she's leaving us She's leaving us I was like she really left

Like she had body She got out of the body Like she really left My mom was like You know my mom was grieving and having a time. And so when she came down, when we all came to the realization that she was gone,

I go out the next day and I have a plant that my mom had got me for my birthday. And so white birds of paradise. And this thing has not bloomed since we bought it maybe four years ago. That thing had two white blooms on it just overnight. Two white blooms just popped out of the birds of paradise. I was just like, well, let's just let me know. that they're here with me. Like, these are two ancestors

that just popped up and say, like, hi, wait, this is why you got that plant. I think hadn't bloomed for four years in this weekend, in this period of time, and it literally lasted for three days. And then they went. I was just like, okay, that was just her letting me know. You know, your faith,

I find it be so interesting because you have faith, you believe in God, but spiritually you're connected. So it's interesting because when I hear a lot of people talk, it's like, I'm religious, no, no, I'm spiritual. You know, but you believe in all of it. And not to make it frivolous for anybody who has their distinct beliefs. Like, you know, the higher being, the great I am made it all.

He knew that we were going to be diverse humans and a very diverse species. and he gave us various different ways to get to him. So use it. Use it. See what works for you. You know, don't vilify one to say another. This is my best way. We don't have to have a best.

We just have a way to have a way to get to it. Yes. To it. Yes. That's my belief. So get to it. Is this what guides your belief around treating all people equal? Because, you know, as I said, my boys know you from American boy,

but they know you from something else. Yeah. Do you know what's the something else? Garnet. You're Garnet. Oh my gosh. They flipped out too. Could make it up.

This is the one that I expect people to know me from, but also like I know that Fortnite did a good job of like remaking the burger boy. And kids are like, that's the Chuck Junk song. I'm like, all right, you guys. But yeah, Garnet Stevens universe. Yeah, yeah. I mean, and what I didn't realize, because I wasn't watching, right, but my boys were watching. Yeah.

Right, but I didn't realize how it leans into advocating and supporting being true, I would say, an ally show to the LGBTQ plus community. Man, I is one of the honors of my life. So when Stephen Universe comes along, I'm beating my team up. I need a voiceover because people tell me the way I speak is great. I'm being up. And I remember, they were like, oh, why did you want a voice over? Go make a song. I'm like, I want to do more things.

I want to spread out. Yes. And they're like, all right. So, my agent finds me a Stevie Universe. And she comes and she's like, this is a cartoon. It's not much money. And I'm like, what's it about? What's the story?

She's like, well, it's this, you play the big sister of this group of aliens. And it's like, leave me the thing, let me read it. So I read it and it's about this big sister. I was like, well, I can relate to that. Definitely a big sister. Thousands of sisters and brothers. Yes. I understand that.

And then I'm looking at it. And I'm like, the head, the hair, the thing. So I had this dream one time, I had this song called Freak. And I'm trying to think of what the video is going to be because I wrote all my videos. Side note, my wife's favorite song of your song. Okay. When we play that song, she starts dancing. My son's like, oh.

What is going on? Yes, Mom. That's more of an outside song. That's an outside song. No, don't play that house. Don't play that house. Play in the car. So the first conversation I have with Rebecca,

and she's like, you know, I'm a big fan of your music. The song Freak, the video you had, and I'm just like, like, I'm having all these, like, oh, this came from somewhere. She's like, I drew it based off of that because it felt so strong and so, you know, and purple because, you know, but she had to have on pants.

I was like, of course she had to have in pants. And in the video, I'm in a black suit and like almost like a tribute, the video is almost like a tribute to Missies. she's a bitch. Yes. I didn't, none of us knew

the trajectory was going to take. Yeah, I just knew, it was like, these crystal gems from space were taking care of this little boy

on earth. And as it starts to unfold and I'm not a good watcher of my work. I don't go back and look at it and, you know, I don't do that.

I just put it in a wild and let it be. Um, and we do about four to five seasons of this show and then I start going to the cons. And I'm humbled at every turn.

I didn't know. It's amazing. It's, I mean, I've never read about a show quite like it. Nothing like it. Nothing like it. Nothing like it. Nothing like it. The creators were real clear about their intentions with it.

The kids kept saying like, why is, why is a black woman? So why is gone in black? Right. And so, well, she's black because why not? Because why not? So every other thing in power, all that's the strongest thing is white, in mail. Why not? Why not? And I said, and this is why I'm on the show.

I said, because why not? Why not? That's your career. Why not? Why not? Why not? What I'm talking about? There's no version or not. Why is allieship so important to you? Because we're humans, man. I don't get to tell you how you should love, feel about yourself, feel about anybody else, in the same way you don't get to tell me that. You know, I don't understand.

judging people based off of fear. I don't understand telling people they can't live a life because you're scared of what that life looks like. Everybody should have that barometer. Everybody should work to have that parameter of trust and decency in themselves. And if you have that and you can see it for yourself, you should be able to see it for somebody else.

If you can't see it for somebody else, that means you don't have it for yourself. So that's a you thing. That's a real, go figure yourself out. I don't think you hate. I just think you have issues with yourself. Yes. Yeah.

It begins and ends with you. Yeah. That's so, my thing is just like, well, I love the world. You know, on the, and I just have to say this, on the show in particular, what I didn't realize is that, all right, so you may know this. I'm not sure if you know this. Between 2017-2019, there was a 222% increase in the number of LGBTQ plus characters in new. series that have come out. And I think Stephen Universe has played a major role in this.

And that Rebecca, I didn't realize she's non-binary bisexual showrunner. So one of the few, one of the few. And that Stephen Universe had over 40 LGBTQ characters, including the only asexual character. She, look, she was a visionary. She is, not was, she is. And she's so, she's both. and she's clear.

And when I tell you the gentlest soul you will ever meet, like she barely speaks. Rebecca Sugar. Rebecca Sugar is like, you have to be like, say that loud, say that again. Like what?

Like she's very gentle, but she's very intentional. Yes. And like I'm inspired by people like that. It's joyful. Like I'm honored. It's absolutely incredible. Yeah.

Absolutely incredible. Give her Emmy's. Yeah. I mean, I think it, I think it will come. So last topic is quick ones. Yeah.

Is I know you had some wild stories. Can I tell you inside wild stories that I know you have? What told me? This is not putting you on blast, but this will be good, is that when you were at the book lunch, at my book lunch, way back in the day, we got a car for you. Yeah, what happened? Did I take the car? Did I do extra things with it?

Did I go crazy? Did I keep going? Can I tell you? Probably, I kept going. I was like, Estelle is a rock star. What did I do? Do you know? Wild night, huh?

No, no, it wasn't a wild night. No. So. What did the bill coming at is the question? Okay. I'm so sorry in the fog. Can I tell you exactly what the bill came in? The bill was supposed to be like 500 U.S.

Oh, no, it was more? The bill came in at over 3,000. What? Yes. No, no, no. This is what you did. Wait, where did I go? Tell me the thing.

This is what you did. So we were on the phone. they called because we were like, okay, it's got to be 500. It's a little bit more, so we're going to call. The fact that they were calling, I was like, oh, man, this is going to be a problem. No, no, no, no, no, this is good. This is good. This is good.

So they call it and they said, so, you know, Ms. Estelle, you know, she had the car for a little while. And I said, where did she go? Like, what happened? And they said, well, you know, she went after she left the event, you know, she went to this place, then she went to this place, and then she went to this place, and then she went to this place. And I was like. I was probably outside. I cannot deny the allegations.

I was probably outside. I'm not being the allegations on that one. But you taught me you know how to party miss. I do. I did. Like, you did? You stopped that? I stopped.

Did you? Yeah, you can't do that for your whole life. All right. So you, you were official. You were officially. I was having fun. Like, I remember that area. I was having a lot of fun.

And I'm sorry again for like. No, no, no. Like, I apologize. I had a good time. Thank you. Thank you so much. But can I say? You didn't even try, you came through on just the strength to do the book lunch, right?

Yeah. But I have to ask then, because you had some wild moments. Yeah, I did. If you think about the wildest moment. Okay, I got to be. I had a trip. I had to go do some shows. And I'm going to book to perform in Lebanon, Cannes, and San Jose.

It's like a week full of gigs. So I go to Lebanon and we do this gig and it ends up being on top of a rooftop. of this building, this beautiful building, but next door there's like bullet riddled. I'm really like, I haven't rebuilt it. I lost a little fresh. Whatever. Okay.

We keep going. Our flight gets canceled from, we fly it to Paris. Our flight gets canceled. We have to get on a train. We get on the train to the San Jacerpe. I get off the train. The Sanrape is like one in the morning.

I'm on stage at two. And it's like a, like, a, doz, do, okay. Club. And I did a whole 20. minute set with dancers, we knock it out. I drink maybe half a bottle of vodka that night with some Hennessy. No sleep.

No sleep. You can rally next morning. Me and my friend are out on the can. We're on the seafront. It's a wild four-eight hours. We get to San Jacerpe and I have to perform again. I'm on stage and they're like, yeah, so we have a couple of breakers to the club. And, you know, he likes to perform with the people.

I was like, hmm? I was like, I'm like, r-wr, squirt, scroll back. It's well wet. When I see this man come walking through in a tankini and some slides. A tankini? Like Ali G. Oh, that's a tankini. A tankini.

Okay. Ali G. And he has on like daisy slides. Like a little baby heel. And it's the slides. And I'm just looking at him going like, dog. Anyhow, I'm on stage and I'm with performing and whatnot. And then I look to my right and this man has joined me for American Boy.

He said it's a duet. And this one, he's like, he's something. This was the part. He just comes up there and he's like, get it. And I'm just like, all right, well, TV, Hats, me. But that was a while story. Comedy of Errors leading up to me and the Tancini man singing the microphone. Singing, yeah.

In San Trape at 2 in the morning. But you know where? I absolutely love that. Yeah, it's a good time. Yeah. It's a great time. So when I be outside part, yeah. That's why. That's why.

You know, also, too, is I realize that the energy level, though, that it takes to be able to do that back and to back to it. Like the stamina is ridiculous. That's why I can't point anymore. Because I'd like to be able to do it forever. Yeah. So at some point you have to like temper that. Yeah.

Slow down. Your buddy deserves to be here. Yes. You know, yeah. Fair enough. Those were, that's the wildest. Yeah. What about happiest moment in your career? Jeez, I'm waiting for it.

I've had a lot of happy times. I've had a lot, but I think the best yet to come. I do believe that. Like, I don't want to be like, that's it. Because I feel like every time I say that's it, God talks it. There's moments of extreme gratification, like doing a Comic-Con and seeing a little girl or a little boy or, you know, someone who identifies as they coming out to me being like, thank you, I see myself. Thank you for voicing something that I can see myself in. And then I think about my nieces hearing my voice and being like, that's Auntie.

Yes. That's Auntie Steele. Those moments make me feel like you're on the right track. I feel warm inside when those moments happen. and then there's winning a Grammy and then there's winning a mobile and then there's winning a mobile two more times and I sit in those moments and I'm just like

I'm straight I can be quiet in a hotel room after a gig I don't need to be outside yeah look at that go home listen to some frequency listen to some frequency I guarantee you

if you see me with my headphones out in public I am somewhere else all right so that was happiest is yet to come but you have many happy moments Yeah. What about so far the proudest moment in your career? This new album.

Okay. This new album is my proudest moment. It took so much for me to be content or to be happy with the human I am today. It took so much. I'm so proud of myself. Like, oh, you got me crying again. I am so proud of her. Like, girl, you did it.

You're doing it. You know, this version of you, that you get to really tell the world you are and stand on it. and live it and sing it and dance it, like, oh, it took me so long to get here. And I'm so proud of myself. And I know wherever I go from here on, wherever it goes next, I'm going to be proud of that too. But to be able to emotionally, mentally, physically push through all of that. And it was heavy. It was like walking through thick molasses to now be on the other side of the molasses and be like, oh, I'm swimming.

It's like water. That's easy. This is me. This is me. You know what I should have known, but I didn't. I didn't. I think because you wear such a smile on your face is I didn't realize how much pain you had to go through in your career. I mean, I should have assumed it.

But, I mean, when you're living your dream, per everybody else's version of the dream, you don't almost don't feel worthy of, you don't feel worthy of any sympathy or why should any, care that I don't feel like singing today. Why should anyone care that I, because you got the dream you ask for, you got the thing you worked for. And my buddy was telling me certain times you should probably not sing today. You're going to go out and give bad vibes. You're going to go out there and damage yourself. Your, your head hurts. You didn't eat today. You didn't feed me today. You've been working out for 700 days in a row and your body is literally doing this. You didn't, just, think you deserve a massage of someone to help you unfurl it how are you got there and your buddy's doing this and you don't think you deserve that you don't think that that's part of you know

one of my team members who says to me you're an athlete start treating yourself like you care about your body that was a ping that was your thing and it was like i'm an athlete yeah i'm an athlete hold on right let me let me let me change some things so so this album this is this is the first this is fully you. This is me, we're meeting 100% Estelle on this.

Yeah. Yeah. It's a good time. All right. This is good. This is good. That just reminded me, this is a personal question

because I was a huge, and to this day, huge De La Sol fan. De La Sol was actually, that's where in New York where I lived. Yeah. They were the first piece of my number

I bought in my life. Three is a magic number. Three, yes. I mean, just one of my first too. And I think that you were that chorus, that hook on memory of. She remember the guy that I told you I was in a relationship with when I was like 25? And I just didn't know what it was and where it was, that was me just reminding myself to not go down that road again.

Never go down that road again. In memory of. Yeah. I love the memory of us. We good though. I remember you now. and I wrote that with Pete Rock in the publishing studio channeled it, let it go and then Paz had hit me like, hey we're working on that album

and we'd like to do a record with you and I was like whole soul and I'd met Macyo a while ago so I knew him but it wasn't the level where I could just be like do you need any records? So when Paz hit me I was like oh and so I called my manager

I was like, have we written anything? He's like the Pete Rock record, send him that I was like, okay. So sending him the record, and he was like, seriously, damn, like, we're going to do this. We know Pete, we got you. Just send us a session. It's like, okay.

And then they sent it back. When I told you the honor, I sat there in tears. Like, I was 11. That was my first piece of vinyl. I bought for 50p. Someone left at the, you know, the school fairs they do. Like, everyone brings in their stuff. Someone had that pink and yellow vinyl at the school fair.

And I bought that, like, It's so pretty. Took it home. My uncle was like, you don't know nothing about this? I was like, yes, I do. I didn't. But listen to it and like,

Saturday, three is the magic. All that, mind blown. So to be on their last record and to be the single and to have spent that time with them shooting a video and listen to Dave and they were both talking,

Macyo and Dave were talking to me about relationships. And then Pulse chimed in and I'm sitting in the car with three, OGs telling me men talking to me about their experiences in love while I shoot a video where I play The Bride. I was like, God, you can't make this stuff up.

No, because when I read that that was the first piece of vinyl, like, there's the first album that you bought. And then to then think, oh, my God, but didn't I see her sitting in that car in the memory of video? Three is a magic note. Yeah, I was like, you can't make it up. This is divinely guided, divinely orchestrated. You can't make it up.

Cannot. Estelle, we talked about many, many, many, many, many, many things. Is there anything that we have not yet talked about that you want to talk about? No, I just, thank you for this opportunity. But I'm proud of you. I love, again, the flip happened, you came here. You've been doing it. We crossed each other.

We said, see you. Okay, I'm going to London now. I have a book coming and that I feel like it's going to give people tidbits of how to do it. So I want people to understand that the book is not going to be salacious. It's not going to be one of those things. I'm not tell all. It's not a tell all. I don't believe in that.

I'm not telling nothing. Get out of here. That's not what we do. No. But I am going to explain how I've lived my life and how I've gone to where I've gotten to. And I want people to take from that what you will and discard the rest. Like, use it as a reference book. Don't take it on.

Like, well, it's Del said, try it. Your fingerprint is your fingerprint and my fingerprint is mine. Yeah, because it works for you. If it doesn't, okay. You know, but here's, so the book's come in, take that for what it is and, you know, have fun with it and trust yourself. What's the title of the book? Do you know? It's not there, yeah.

Is that there? Yeah. It's not there yet. All right. There yeah. Okay. I think it should be called. I think it should be called, thank you.

Oh. Because I think that you live in gratitude. And even in this conversation, what I've noticed is that you have gone through the thing. You're appreciative of whatever the thing was. You pull a lesson. So you're showing gratitude. And that ultimately is what also allows us to have the self-worth that you have to be able to stand at our silence and our independence.

And so... That's true. Yeah. I mean, my ears. I think about here's opinion. I got to talk to the book. Yeah, say, think about it.

Think about it. Do you think about it? All right, so then there is a last question that everyone gets. So you've had some incredible conversations throughout your life. Yeah. When you think back to the most memorable, who was it with what did you talk about? What did you learn?

Red Temperton. It always comes to mind. Rod Temperton. I was maybe 23. Rob Temperton wrote, I'm thrilled with Quincy Jones. Like, and be it and off the wall with Michael, like for Michael Jackson. This is that guy.

I was mad about everything and everyone because it felt like the world's biggest uphill battle trying to release the 18th day. I'm already signed, what's the problem? It felt like every step of the way of shooting for the stars, there would be someone to tell me why I couldn't do it. And he says, you're going to go far. So how do you deal with people when they're just complete? Like they're telling you no.

He said, this is musical chairs. He said, so, you know, learn from people. Don't burn the bridges. It said, because they'll move to a different seat and they might be less hot. And that's been the truest thing ever because there have been so many people that I've met. And because I'm consistent,

the love and the respect I get when I walk in the room is wildly different to maybe in other eyes who was riding high and doing whatever at the time. And I was grateful to listen. I'm grateful I got to sit in 10 minutes, 10 minutes, and his wife, Kathy's time, a few hours,

and they were staying in touch over the years. And they would always make sure to give me good nuggets. Like, you're okay? You're all right. Come around for dinner. You know, like, just, and I was moving around, so I didn't get to do too much,

but those moments meant, like, hold on to those. It's like, don't be a dick where you don't have to be a dick. You know, just keep. Keep it level. It's okay. It'll be all right. And that's been like a state, keep it level. Yeah. It's okay. And it's it's been it's been more than okay. Yeah. It has been. You know, when I think about your career just to even, you know, summarize it all for me. Yeah. Is what I find to be so interesting about you is that you are one of the very few people who are not just famous around the world. but in particular in the U.S. and the U.K.

It's a rarity to be famous and popular because fame is, in my opinion, is like people are aware of who you are. You're recognizable. Oh, that's Estelle, right? But popularity requires people to like you. And what I notice is that you're not just liked by all, but you're liked in particular by artists, by your peers.

I like those. But your peers, I could see that they love you. When I hear people talk, it's like, it's always positive. It's always positive about you. And then not only do you have that popularity in fame, but then through the age range, right? It's like my parents, right, where I can't say their age because they would reach out and strangle me right now. But trust me, they're older than me, you know, down to my sons who are 1114. The whole range.

I'm in between. It's like, we all know you, but we all like you at the same time. It's me happy. You know, that's a blessing. You lived a blessed life. And the best end note is you have made your grandmother proud.

So proud. Yes. Yeah, me crying again at the end. Don't do that. This is going to be a thing. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

For sure. So thank you. Yes. Thank you. All right. You know, I've known Estelle 15 years. It's like, oh, 15 years, yeah, 15 years. And I think I learned more about her in this conversation than I did across the 15 years.

I know that she's been reluctant to share private details about her life, and namely the pain that she's gone through being a part of the industry. I didn't realize how impactful her grandmother has been. throughout her life that I just didn't realize. You can create your own path in life. She created this path when she was told no many, many times, not just in the UK, but also when she got to the U.S., and how she made a way.

Without question, a big inflection point in Estelle's life was Rosco's chicken and waffles with Kanye West. I strongly believe it was Estelle's confidence and building the respect in London that is what allowed her to get the invite to the studio, which then she eventually meets John Legend, John Lentgen eventually signs her, and co-writes American Boy,

which is one of the most popular songs ever penned. The lesson for all of us is to have that self-confidence, to step into situations and make the ask. You know, you will never get, unless you ask. And Estelle is a prime example of that. When I heard that, and I think this is why it hits so big in the U.S., I think American boys were always associated with the all-American boy,

which the all-American boy was normally, you live in California, you are white, you're not black, you are six foot five. But here, Estelle was saying, you know, American boy, and she was talking about baggy pants, and she was talking about someone who I knew. She was talking about this guy right there. Like, really, this is who she described. That is not what the American boy was.

You know, so for her to sing that song, it was, it was empowering, actually.