We Need To Talk with Paul C. Brunson - EXCLUSIVE: Karen Hauer Breaks Silence On Marriage “I Was Bankrolling Everything...I Wish Someone Had Forced Me Out!"

Episode Date: May 27, 2025

In this episode of We Need To Talk, Strictly Come Dancing’s Karen Hauer sits down with Paul for a conversation that goes far beyond the ballroom. Karen reflects on the defining moments that have shaped her life. From Venezuela to New York to the UK, Karen shares the ambition that drove her, the heartbreak that nearly broke her, and how dance became her language of survival. In her most vulnerable interview yet, Karen opens up about one of her most public relationships - the breakdown of a marriage that played out in the public eye. She reveals what really happened behind the headlines. For the first time, Karen speaks candidly about one of the most painful chapters of her life, the lessons she’s learnt about love, and how she’s finally putting herself first. Karen also lifts the curtain on Strictly - sharing what the audience doesn’t see, her thoughts on the infamous “Strictly curse,” and just how competitive the show really gets. This is a story of resilience, self-discovery, and the power of choosing yourself. Please note this conversation includes sensitive topics that may be distressing. We’ve included support charities below: MIND: https://g2ul0.app.link/Ne9MpdtBjTb   Survivor's Trust: https://g2ul0.app.link/yh0NrvNsvTb     Refuge: https://g2ul0.app.link/td2zqEPpGTb  Follow me here: https://www.instagram.com/needtotalk  https://www.tiktok.com/@weneedtotalkpod  Support Karen here: Instagram https://g2ul0.app.link/pj5LZtSpGTb  TikTok https://g2ul0.app.link/pvMCYYWpGTb  Hauer Power https://g2ul0.app.link/B0BsHDALHTb (0:00) Intro (1:55) Karen's Childhood Experience of Moving from Venezuela to New York (3:35) How Karen Discovered Her Love of Dancing (5:02) How Karen's Parents Split Up (9:04) Karen's Early Love-Life (11:55) The Beginnings of Karen's Career as a Dancer and 'So You Think You Can Dance?' (14:38) Karen's First Marriage (16:02) 'Repetition Compulsion' (18:07) Karen's Most High Profile Marriage (23:15) Karen's Audition for 'Strictly Come Dancing' (24:22) Karen's Experience of Moving to the UK and Starting on Strictly (25:26) How Karen's Marriage Was Affected by Being on Strictly (27:08) How Karen's Second Marriage Ended (36:02) Karen Addresses the Strictly 'Curse' (41:33) What Keeps Karen Coming Back for Strictly? (43:46) How Competitive Is Strictly? (48:20) Tinder Ad (49:36) Crossed Wires Ad (50:38) Karen Opens Up On Traumatic Relationship (1:21:34) Karen's Future (1:25:18) Most Memorable Conversation (1:28:54) Paul's Takeaways We Need To Talk: LIVE! Join Paul us for our first ever We Need To Talk live show - coming to Crossed Wires in Sheffield on 5th July 2025. Be part of the conversation, in person https://g2ul0.app.link/VOjDM0icWSb Just launched - The Love Journal - a space to build a stronger, more intentional relationship - starting with yourself: ⁠https://bit.ly/lovejournal-mp ⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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Terms apply. He just wanted a divorce. I didn't find it. There will always be love there. We belonged together. And then the grenade went off. I pulled the pin. My dad hit my mom, and I saw that.

That's the last thing I remember of my father. But I had dancing. That was the only constant. You audition for Strictly. And that's where my life changed. What is your take on the Strictly curse? I think. When you're moving sexier on someone,

you confuse things at times. You entered a new relationship? The grip he had on me. It paralyzed me. Got myself into a relationship that I should have. Complete desperation. The day of the wedding. My brother came up to me and he was like, we can walk out right now.

I've stopped chasing happiness. I chase ease. When I close my eyes, looking within myself, who am I, Karen? You are valuable. Are you in love? We just hit 100,000 subscribers. So if you are subscribed, thank you so much. If you're not yet, please consider hitting subscribe.

It's quick, it's easy, and it helps us grow our community. So can we begin? with my favorite place in the world, even though I now live in London, my favorite city is New York City. That's my favorite city. And this is a city that you moved to as a young girl. Yeah. Okay.

Can you talk about the move and where you move from? So I was born in Venezuela and at the age of eight, my parents decided to move to New York. What was the reason why your parents left Venezuela? You know what, I've had this conversation with my mom. And sometimes I think the real reason is because she didn't want him to go on his own. Your father? My dad was supposed to go to New York on his own to work, even though we had pretty decent life in Venezuela.

And it was mainly to change lifestyles and to kind of rebuild something new, maybe because they were having issues. and there was a divorce pending or I'm not really sure what the dynamic was, but they were not in a good place. Okay. That's all I can, the energy that I felt as a kid was that it was never a good thing when my parents were together. Wow. Roughly, what year was that?

1990. Oh, yeah, I saw you. That's right. No, no. What did you think about New York when you got to the big city? I hated. I didn't like it. It was cold.

I'd never worn a jacket before or earmuffs or gloves or any of that stuff. So it was very different. And I mean, it was the Bronx. So it wasn't like, you know, Fifth Avenue, beautiful lights, you know. It was like gritty Bronx. People warm in their hands literally like coming to America, you know? Was there a safe zone or safe space that you had in those early days, New York.

I was introduced into this dance program. And that's when I was like, oh, quite like this. Drums, dancing. This is where I, this feels, this is where I want to be. It felt safe. Yeah. So school safe, but dancing safer. Oh, yeah.

Okay. Because there was a different way of communicating. Because of that, I started learning, you know, English properly. And I started to learn to read properly. Because of dance. Because of dance. Because of dance. You did how so? I think it opened my mind up and opened my center up.

It allowed me to not be here. I took my jacket off and I presented myself. That's one of the things they taught me to present myself from here, from my sternum, from my throat. and I think that's when I started getting a voice. And then all of a sudden that kind of started, it helped me comprehend things better. In school in Venezuela, I had a really hard time learning how to read and then they would hit you with a stick

or they would pull your hair. So it was a bit more aggressive in Venezuela. So I didn't want to read or learn or anything like that. So obviously moving into the States and it really helped me with everything. What was happening in your home during that time? Because I would imagine that you initially you moved in, you said with family.

Did you then move out from family or what eventually happened? Well, they were, I think they were friends of my father. So they weren't even family. Things were never good. Like even in Venezuela. It was like, I just remember, dishes flying around and screaming matches. Once my dad was able to get a job and start doing stuff,

then obviously he went his way and doing the things that he would always do. From what I could remember, it was like, you know, cheating on my mom and kind of just not treating her right and leaving us into the point where he eventually just left and left my mom and three kids. So then she took that And we literally moved from room to room Or people's living rooms Because she couldn't afford an apartment

And then they'd put like a little curtain And we'd have two beds And we've had our suitcases And this happened for about a couple of years actually How old were you when your father left? He left within the year So I was probably around nine. My goodness.

And then I kept seeing him. I kept seeing him. But there was no help that was coming in. He's just someone that helped to give me life. I don't wish harm upon them, but I don't really care about them. It was just my mom carrying us and her having to go and clean other people's homes. to put food on the table for us, or to even try to get us into a little apartment that you could pay for.

You know, so it was, so then whenever I would go to school, I'd be happy because I had my space. Okay, okay, this makes sense. How did you feel in those moments of change? Because those are significant moments of change. I mean, being uprooted, from where you were born, moving to an entirely different country, let alone New York, which New York is a country within the United States, right?

And the Bronx in particular, you know what I mean? Bronx was no joke. I'm from Queens, but Bronx is, I mean, you could debate which one's worse. But, but, you know, so you were, I mean, so that's significant. How did you feel going through that change? You know what? If I think about it now, I think I was okay. I think I was okay.

I got roller skates for Christmas one day. I always wanted the Barbie house, but I never got the Barbie house, and that's fine. But I got roller skates, and I taught myself how to roller skate. And we were roller skate outside, and it felt good. And I remember there was a neighbor that I always said, oh, it's the kids, the smiley kids. The smiley kids. They always saw a smiley. They had no idea what we were going through.

Yes, I remember being sad when I saw conflict with my parents. He hit my mom, and I saw that. And I remember jumping up and down on a mattress and screaming. That's the last thing I remember of my father. How do you believe that what you witnessed in your household? impacted how you then began to form romantic relationships early in your life? Oh, majorly. Regardless of what I went through and seen my parents and, you know,

what's happened in their relationship and seeing how my mom navigated through her relationships, she always ended up being alone because she didn't want to bother with anybody. She raised us, she took care of us, and I just said, saw this independent woman who didn't need a man, who didn't want a man, because she didn't want anything to kind of clutter her. For me, I was completely the opposite. I want love. I want to take care of a family.

I want to take care of someone. I want that person to take care of me. I kept a diary. I keep a diary as soon as I was 15. And yesterday I was actually reading through it. Wow. and reading through all of my love novel. It was like a love novel.

But all my entries, I just fell in love with someone, and then I didn't want to be with them later on. And then I fell in love with somebody else. And then they're not doing what I want them to do. They're not being too shy, or they're not calling me, or they're not doing what I need. They're not giving me what I need. And as a result, you ended the relationship.

Yeah. Wow. Look at that. Yeah, I just, I finished. And then I met someone else. Immediately after? Yeah. I have to say this is you just expressed how I believe our, so our body says more than our words, right?

Our body tells us. And when I think about feeling safe with someone is there is an exhale moment. And I find this all the time, especially with one of the projects I do married at first sight, which I find to be very interesting is that you see that there are two people meeting for the first time and as soon as the groom

turns around and looks at the bride and the heterosexual relationships looks at the bride you either see an inhale or an exhale if you look very closely you'll see the two the inhale signals

I don't know about this Oh yeah, I knew about that. I can tell you that for sure. That's the inhale. The exhale is, I'm in. Yeah. I feel safe. But so your safe space, though, it sounds like it was always still you were dancing.

So you're in performing art school. So you had to test it into performing art school, I wouldn't imagine. So you're dancing, you're dancing. Career-wise, do you think professional dancer? Or you think, no, no, I'm going to do something else? No, I didn't know. I didn't know what I was going to do. I just knew that this was my thing.

Okay. That I loved to do. And also at that time, I didn't know what the capabilities were, how far you could go with it. You know, there were no shows or anything that I knew about. How do you transition then to becoming a professional dancer? I auditioned for so you think you can dance. and I got my first break. And it was the most intense period of my career.

Publicly, it was the first time I was on television. The first time I was feeling the, oh, there's bullies out there. There's people that actually don't like me. Anxiety, kicked in. Am I good enough? Kicked in. Can I actually do this? And listen, it was incredible.

I grew as a performer. I never knew I could do the things in such a small amount of time. The pressure that is put on television on you to deliver. What are examples of the pressure that you get from being on television and the pressure is applied for you to perform? the different styles of dances that you have to do

and different personalities that you have to deal with different choreographers, what they expect of you. Yes. The expectation is, well, you can't do this? What do you mean you can't do this? Why are you here? So you're constantly having to prove yourself over and over to people that you owe nothing to.

But at the same time, they're trying to help you. But not the right way. It's just push, push, push, push. So you're pushing and you're not sleeping. You're in an apartment with three other dancers. And then you go on and you perform. And then you're in the bottom two. And then you have to dance for your life.

I feel like I've had to dance for my life the entire time. Now, isn't it, though, through dance that you meet your first husband? Yes. Okay. And it starts. And it starts Yes, yes You know

And he introduced me Into the world of ballroom dancing Oh really? Yeah Okay We danced together We competed together But I was angry all the time

At him At him At him I was angry Maybe at myself Because I didn't know how to communicate I didn't know how to To

You know If there were other girls I was jealous Because I didn't want the same thing to happen. I didn't want to go through what my mom went through. So I wanted someone who had eyes on me. You know, and I think over time, you know, you kind of, oh, you know, if you get some one knee, I'm not going to say no. You know, I'm going to marry this guy. Of course, things will change. Things will change, Karen. You'll get through this. You'll, you'll fix it. You'll fix it.

I never really thought about getting therapy yet. Okay. Because I'm, I was a bit crazy. But not in a, I just didn't know what love was supposed to look like. Sure. So I, I just fought it in my head. Well, this is, I made something up. I made what I thought was what love was. Yeah.

You know, also, there's something called repetition compulsion. Have you heard about this? Come on, get you ever heard about repetition compulsion? That it's like, but yeah. It's called repetition compulsion. And what it states, it's a psychological term, right? And what it states is that we are pulled to what is familiar to us when it comes to our romantic relationships. So if we are used to something that is toxic, it's tumultuous, it's up and down, it's sporadic, right?

Then if we see our parents go through that, that's familiar. So we find ourselves wanting that. And what you find is many people who have gone through that experience, and then they're presented with something very safe, very calm, they push it away because it's not familiar. You know, so I'm just wondering because it's interesting because you have that same relationship with these men. Yeah. But I think I kept doing that. we, you know, we were very, married very short, for a very short time. And I ended up wanting, I didn't, I wanted something more.

You know, with my, with our careers, with, with, with the love that I was searching for. You know, he wanted to stay and build a home and, you know, stay in the same place and continue working and, you know, dancing here, which is great, but not what I wanted. When you left, you were both in the United States at that time. So you then, I would say fairly quickly enter another relationship. Story of my life. I'll be alone. Leave me alone.

Yeah, this is fairly quick. You said, how many months? Well, I mean, I had a brief. relationship in between. Okay. Or maybe like two brief relationship. I don't know what it is. I just, I fall in love.

And then I face plants on the floor. Are you falling in love or are you falling in lust? You know, is it, is it, is it, is it love or is it more so infatuation? Yes. Obsession, obfatuation. Need. Yes. Desperation, not wanting to be alone.

That's how I see it. But then you marry someone else, right? Now, I watched the proposal for your second marriage. Could you describe, though, the moment where you are when you were proposed to, because you were proposed to for your second marriage? Yeah, West End. West End. So you're in the West End, which by the way, how did, so how did you get from?

Broadway, burn the floor. We went on a world tour and then one of the places that we stopped was in the West End in London. All right. So was that your first time in London? Yeah, that was my first time. What? You were proposed. No, no, no, no.

Well, no, not my first time, but it was one of the first times with the company. But that was my second time. Yes, second time in the West End. Still? So you're traveling. Yeah. Second time in the West End. And then what happens?

It was my birthday. I didn't even know it was your birthday. I did not know it was your birthday. Okay. Yeah. Yeah, it just, I didn't expect it. Obviously, you know, I'd been with that person for a while, you know, really in love. Can I push on something?

Yeah. Because you said first it was obsession. They all start an obsession, right? And then you said it moved to love. How do you know it was love? I think because we were sharing the same passion. Okay. So there was this connection already.

And we were like, yes, it felt right. Okay, okay. And you're touring together, right? So you're among other dancers. And the other dancers are aware that you two are seeing each other. Yeah, yeah. You know, and they're cheerleading that on, I would imagine. So then you, how long were you together before the proposal?

I think four years, four or five years. So you two are work colleagues, though. Yeah. Right. And what's interesting is, so I was doing some research on work colleagues. This may or may not blow your mind. All right. Now check this out.

43% of people who have dated a colleague end up marrying them. That's wild. That's crazy. That's wild. 57% report workplace relationships have impacted their work performance. In a good way or a bad way?

Impacts it. So do you feel like that as you were dating, though, did that your romantic relationship impact your work performance? I think it enhanced it. It enhanced it. 100%. Did you discuss. marriage or was the proposal a surprise to you?

No, I think we've always knew that we wanted to end up getting married. Okay. So, and I had a pig daughter, a couple of rings. Oh, right? All right. I want that one. No, no, but, but yeah, it was discussed. I just didn't know at all that that was going to happen that day.

Okay. It was beautiful. It was fun. It was exhilarating. and it was what I wanted with that person. And I didn't have a second thought of a, oh, it was like, yes, 100%. So now reflecting back, what are the emotions that you have today? Obviously, I think about what happens after that, all the years after that.

You know, when you have it in your hands and it's safe there, it's finally arrived. This is it. This is good. Sit. I have it here. I'm not going to let it crumble. Do you feel like you allowed it to crumble? We did. We did. Okay. You essentially move from the United States together to the UK.

So what was it, or what was the catalyst to move you from the United States to the UK? Getting a job. Getting a job. And who got the job? I got the job. You got the job. That in itself is a conversation. Yeah. Because he was, in essence, was he employed in the United States or unemployed at the time?

We were unemployed. Unemployed? We left the company, the dance company together to be able to audition together for the TV show. Okay. Yeah. And so when you auditioned for strictly, was it, okay, did you audition, you were in the United States, but did you you had to fly here to watch. I didn't, we did it through Skype.

Did you? Yeah. Are you serious? At 6 a.m. in the morning. 6 a.m. How did you audition via? Oh, man. Well, we had a, we had a conversation through, you know, it was just an interview.

Okay. Fortunately, I was since I was on So You Think You Can Dance, I was able to get some connections through that. And we got an interview. We both were interviewed at the same time. And then they ended up having a spot for me, but not for him. yet and so I went on to move we both moved to the UK and started the you know the transition into a new show wow look at that and that was 14 years ago yeah all right so you come now

it's a new country third country you've lived in right I always feel an immigrant everywhere I go you are everywhere everywhere and this is a big show the average the average viewership peaked in 2017 at 11.4 million viewers per episode. It's one of these where to this day, basically half the country watches this thing, you know, so an enormous like juggernaut, right, of an entity that you then come on. I go in and it's like, dear in headlights, nobody tells you, nobody gives you a how to book, how to manage this. This is different. You know, I'd done some TV work before, but that was just on me. This is dealing with other people teaching, you know, doing camera work, interviews, you know, press.

I was scared. I was like, I don't know how I'm going to do this. And I remember the first time I went on, it was the same Nikki Burns. And they were like, no lift. And here I go, Karen does a lift. And I get a two from Craig. And I was like, okay, welcome to the show, Karen. and welcome to the show.

But I wouldn't have had it any other way. There must have been a shift once he then, because eventually he becomes a dancer, a professional, should I say, professional on Strictly. So when that happens, how does the relationship change? How does your marriage change? Well, obviously, it was tough to navigate. It was tough to navigate because we didn't know how to.

when we were on tour we knew our schedules were together everything was okay well so the show is at 7.30 we finish at 10 we go back to the hotel we travel to Japan the next day fine then you're here then you're there

there's a structure for us here we created our own structure in a way and to what you think you need to do the job correctly so it it starts

Yes, there was less time spending together, obviously. But again, we understood. It wasn't like, oh, you're working more than me. It was more of a, we just don't have time anymore. Right now, couples on average in the UK and the US are spending one hour together per week. And in that one hour, you're most likely talking about logistics. Can you do this? Can you pick this up?

Paint this. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. and you can see couples drifting apart fairly quickly because we're just not spending time, you know, together. And I'm not saying that's what happened, but it sounds like there was very little time that you were spending together versus maybe earlier in the relationship where you were spending all of your time together.

Yeah. You know? So how does the relationship eventually end? This one hurt. Because we belonged together. Do you know what I mean? It was like you wouldn't say each other's names without following the other person's name. It was one of these that were like, wow, what?

We built stuff together. It was just, I felt that he distanced himself from me. But I was probably doing the same because I felt if you didn't want me, then okay, I'll retreat. I'll give you your space. It was one of those that were both not talking about it. So I'm like, do you want a divorce? Do you want to split up? I don't know what I want to do.

What do you want to do? Do you know what you want? I don't know what I want. Okay, so do we, are we broken up? So it took a while, actually. It took about a year behind the scenes. In front of the scenes, everything was normal. So you were pretending.

Yeah. So you were still on the show together, pretending? Yeah, yeah. We fell apart. And me not knowing, obviously, I didn't know what was happening in his mind, whether he wanted to be with me or not. Or I knew that I would have worked on it. I would have stayed. But at the same time, I couldn't be with someone who wasn't sure of whether they wanted to be with me or not.

I couldn't just wait. I waited for a while. And I was giving him his space to think. and then funny enough I met someone you know we weren't together but we were together in the public eye wow makes it even more complicated so when you meet someone and it wasn't someone that I dated or something

it just happened to be someone that I that I just saw a couple of times and I got snapped up oh and then all of a sudden I was just walking with this person and then all of a sudden I'm portrayed as someone that I have cheated on him. And then obviously he saw the pictures and was like, so there was a big misunderstanding in all of that

because I was actually, I was literally waiting to be loved. So when that incident happened, what was the conversation that you and your ex had? He just wanted a divorce. but I and I I didn't find it because I was already

it's almost like not and this is probably not the thing at all but in my mind it's almost like something had to happen in order for him to make a decision right because I wasn't going to make the decision

I wasn't going to pull the plug so then I tripped and then the grenade went off you know I pulled the pin yeah I see a parallel between this moment in your first marriage, because in your first marriage,

he said that your partner at that time was in essence saying, tell me what you want me to do, I'll do it. In this marriage, I feel like you, at essence, we're saying, just tell me what you want me to do and I'll do it. Yeah. Is that the case? Yeah. Yeah.

But, you know, I think there is a lot of confusion and he's going on with him as well. We were both in a very tough place. It was tough. It was tough for him, tough for me. It was tough for both of us at that moment. Because I could see he didn't want to let go. But that didn't give him any choice.

He had to do the right thing for himself. Yeah. But why is that? I think that the way that he grew up, you know, they expect, They cared a lot about what people thought. So if he didn't make the correct decision and decided to come with me, that I would look back on his, bad on his family.

I think, you know. And, you know, they were very much about what people think about them and in which I didn't care. This is my life. I, you don't pay my bills. You didn't put me through dance school. You didn't do anything for me for my career. I built myself and I'm with this man.

So, yeah, he didn't even want to talk about it. And again, I respected that. Okay. And that's fine. That's fine. At least I was getting an answer. And at least I could bow down and go, okay, I understand. Yeah.

Fine. How did you two continue to work together, given the fact that you, divorced. The respect we had for each other in workplace. We respected one another. I've never said any, we never said any

a bad word about one another. I think that's because we hold each other to such a high regard. You know, there is, there will always be love there. Okay. So we still danced together on the show and we were still working around each other.

We would still applaud each other, support each other. We never lost that. And that was what was really sad that we couldn't transfer that onto our relationship. Yeah. I find that incredible because I think there's so many people who are in a work environment that they'll break up with their partner. You know, they'll have a romantic relationship. They'll break up and they can no longer work at all. They can't even look in that person's direction, but here you two can still dance together. That is, that's incredible. Yeah, it was tough at times as well when you had to do,

there's one number that we did and it was right before we broke up and it was for Remembrance Day and he was playing a soldier and I was taking the jacket off at the table and dancing with it and then at the end and I mean throughout the dance

he comes back and dances with me and goes in and out of my life until I again finished dancing with with the jacket and placing it back on the table and it was literally I had lost him and it was the end and I remember when we finished that we looked at each other and this was you know we record this in front of an audience as well so they only give you like one or two takes so you have to get it right that sentiment and and the sentiment it wasn't hard to get into that story because I was experiencing it because I was losing him You know, it's so profound to think what is going on in your mind while you're performing.

Yeah. You know, what you're either allowing or blocking out. I use a lot of my experiences to pull out the emotion, you know, and a lot of the experiences are from my love life, from my life, from everything. and that's what makes me open up, it cracks me up, you know, it makes me more vulnerable for my audience. I find it healing in a way because it stops hurting as much.

Yes. It stops, it starts, the wound starts creating a scar and then it becomes skin and it softens. That it softens, yeah, fair enough. You know, one other point, about the dancing, right, is I now, so I often hear about the strictly curse, right? But one thing that I find very, very interesting, so I had to go back.

And I looked at from the beginning of, since the beginning, strictly began, was it 2004? Yeah, probably. Yeah. So from the beginning of strictly through to this day. I have tracked 18 people, 18 who have changed their relationship. As a result, you can tie it back to their time on Strictly. Okay. You can even technically put your X in that category.

Okay. What is your take on the Strictly curse? It is a very close proximity. You're, you know, in detail, being very gentle with someone else. You know, and understanding them, listening to them. I want to know how you learn. You know, a lot of people get to, you know, be in that moment with someone that's actually going, you know, you know me. you have, I have, I have to know you because I need you to be your true self.

I need you to open your mind so we can, I need to learn how you learn so I can teach you better. I need to learn everything that you do, any, any, any, any, any things that you like that you don't like, things that you feel comfortable with, you don't feel comfortable with. So you're literally learning about this person inside up. Yes. which is an emotional connection. And it's the deepest level of emotional connection. And then, you know, you confuse things at times, I think. I think sometimes when you're moving sexy around someone, you know, it's movement.

If I'm moving my hips from right to left, it's pendulum action. I'm not actually trying to be sexy with you. This is just the rhythm. of my body that I'm creating. So whether you fall in love with the movement, seeing someone move so sexy. And obviously, you know, if there's problems at home, if there's, you know, you feel down.

But when I come to you and I make you feel happy, it's all in a bubble. This is all make-believe. I am teaching you at the end of the day. Yes. This is for show. This is acting. This is movement.

this is a performance. So whether two people take that in a completely different way. And there's attractions. I mean, I've not experienced that. I take my job. I close everything up. Whether you're really good looking, I don't see your physique.

I see your brain. How I'm going to teach you how to dance? And then also, when you start learning about someone, you start getting to know someone, you're like, absolutely not. I would never Never You know what

Because when you see someone They're so good looking And I'm like no This is different Yeah But it happens Because and you know what It happens everywhere

And that's fine But obviously because it's such a massive show It's become so ingrained In everyone's brain Well you're dancing with that one Well mm-hmm Be careful But you know what

And it's life's part of being human is part of being part of life you know the attraction and um but as long as it doesn't hurt anybody and that's what's hard you know because you don't hear about this when it happens in you know in somebody else's company exactly but when it happens on our show I think you've just hit the the trifecta of why it does happen and that is, as you talked about, the emotional connection that's formed, which typically doesn't fully form in relationships, right? There's always a lower level of emotional connection, but in order to dance with someone, you need to have that deep, deep emotional connection. So that's one.

Secondly, is the physicality that you're talking about, just the physical proximity, the whole law of proximity and propinquity, that physicality, that physicality being up close. and experiencing new things together, I think drives people together. But then the third is the fact that you're under this pressure bubble together. So in essence, your partner is your only safe space or could be one of your few safe spaces where you can go to. And I think that trifecta, oh my goodness, it's something else. Yeah.

Yeah. It's something else. It's something else. But you, I mean, you are the longest serving professional on strictly, right? History, right? This year will be 14 years, correct? So what keeps you coming back? Every time it feels like a new year, like the first year.

Wow, does it? 100%. Because, again, there's so many curveballs that can be thrown at you. but you're prepared for the... You know what you're... You're getting on a roller coaster. You know what this roller coaster is going to go. I'm strapped in.

I'm going in. But I just love seeing people transform. You know, it's... And it could be that much. But that for me is massive. Yes. Getting someone that absolutely had no idea... You know, there are people that come in with dance experience.

You still have to take them at a completely different level. You know? But it's the people that started nothing that you're like, all right, that's the challenge. Interesting. That's why I keep coming back. And then when we go out there, it's the unexpected. Like, how thrilling is that?

And I have no idea what you're about to do. And 10 million people are watching us. And you might go wrong, but I'm going to. I am right here for you. You know how powerful that is? Wow. So that gives you a thrill. That is thrilling when you go, I have no idea what you're about to do.

because I can see it in your eyes. You have no idea what comes next. But it's thrilling. But you know what? It's when they do something wrong and then you pull them out. It's like pulling them out of the water and then you carry on. And then they go back into it. Okay.

I love when they make a mistake. And I love that in a bad way. But it's almost like because nothing bad happens. The good thing of it is how you picked yourself back up. and you continued and you smiled. Yes. And you enjoyed it. And it was thrilling.

Once you get a 10, you ain't going to go anywhere else other than to get a 10. Then people are going to get bored of you. Yes. But you have to maintain perfection. I love imperfection. Yeah. I can see it. I'm excited about it.

Yeah, you'd be doing this if it's not on. Oh, baby. I love it. Yeah. I love it. And that's what I keep coming back. How competitive is it truly? You have to be.

You have to have to have. have that hunger. You know, I dance with my previous partner, Paul Merson, and he used to call me Pep, Pep, Perthiola. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. I know what. I could, I know why. But because I love to train and I love to coach and I am, I'm competitive in getting you on that dance floor ready. That's where my competition lies. Not against all the other couples, because, again, it's an uneven field. Not everyone, not everybody starts in the same. No, there's a couple of people that count dance, and there's a couple of people that can. Yes.

So how do you compare the two? You know, so I can only focus on the person that I have in front of me and what we can do together. Is there a way and have there ever been people who play dirty? Because, you know, you could skirt the rules if you want to. You know, that wouldn't say dirty, but I would say that they complain on it. I'm like, oh, stop complaining. You know, it is what it is. It's a show.

It's a show. It is. You don't talk back to the judges. They're doing their job. Right. They're doing their job. Listen, don't get me wrong. There's times that I'm like, what did you just say that to me?

Don't keep it in, Karen. Don't let the New York go out. Just smile. Just smile. But it's a show. It's entertainment. Don't take anything personally. Don't take it personal.

Because then that's when it starts hurting. And that's when you become even more competitive and not in the good way. And then that's when you become even more competitive and not in the good way. And then that's when the everything, the lights dim, everything, because I'm a bit like, because you start taking things personal. Yeah, yeah. But come on. You don't ever allow the New York to come out a little bit and give him a little taste?

Oh, no. Why not? Oh, because it's not good. How do you think I got divorced three times? Oh, she wild. No. You're going to say, no, no, no, no, no. No, Papi, no.

It's a son of Sally. And a Spanish, too. Yeah. You can give it to him. multiple languages. That's even worse when I start talking to you in Spanish. Oh, forget about it. Okay.

All right, fair, fair. All right, so what about, because, you know, I think what everyone loves is the inside. Like, what do you, what do you think is something that most people don't know about the show, about strictly, that they would find interesting? Oh, what obviously is not shown is when you're in training and the breakdown. emotional breakdowns. And we all have them. And that's fine.

It's natural because of the pressure. And because there is not a lot of time. And how we pick up the pieces for these guys, these celebs. And even for us as professionals, because nobody knows what's happening outside. you know, going through a divorce while you're trying to push someone and taking a couple of minutes to go into the bathroom to cry,

to get it over with, to let it out, and then coming back in and freshen up and continue to teach. We have our moments that we go, I don't know if I can do this, and then you continue. And would people find that? They probably be like, they'd probably be like, stop. But it is, it is, that is, that is the toughest. Nobody knows anything about me.

And that's fine. And that's fine. You know? But they think they know, oh, she's the lady with the dogs that dances. Yes. And gets married a lot and has different hairstyles, you know? It's interesting. That's what you would, that's what you feel like the perception is of you.

Yeah. So there's, there's a balance. And it's hard. It's hard for, for the producers and for everything to, to balance. the show out. Yes. But that's the beauty of it and why it's so successful because they have, they've created such a beautiful balance of struggle, of happiness, of, oh, I don't know if I'm going to get through. Oh, but you are getting through. Oh, my God, you made the final. Oh, my God. You know, you're leaving the show now. But it's, and it's part of our life. Yes. Yes.

And they've created that beautiful roller coaster that people, that people, that's why people tune in. I was talking with your show sponsored Tinder and they wanted to know if you've ever been on a day. that ended up in an unexpected way. Do you have anything like that? Oh, absolutely. Endless, endless stories. I mean, one in particular is that when Jill and I were dating, we went to a slam poetry competition,

which I will say I knew nothing about slam poetry. And that's when I learned that you snap your fingers, right, when you applaud. I specifically went there because I wanted to impress Jill so that I can get a little, I'll say, bonus afterwards, you know. But what I learned through one of the poets is that we are all artists, The poet specifically said, we are all artists. And that triggered something in me. It made me click to the point where I realized that I wanted to create.

I wanted to figure out how to do that. So afterwards, we went out to eat, Jill and I, and we started talking about creating art together. And I learned from that date that, you know, the date isn't just about the other person. It's not about your physical pleasure. It's not about their physical pleasure. It's about what you can learn about life, about yourself. it was an unexpected outcome from a date. So wherever a date may lead, it starts with a swipe.

That's why you need to download Tinder. Are you ready? That's probably too much. Let me see. How about everyone? Everyone. Everyone. Oh, my God.

Sheffield. Chef. Scott, how do you say this? Is it Shepfield? Sheffield. Sheffield. Sheffield. at least this isn't live, right?

Well, no, but that's about to change, isn't it? So we are going to do, we need to talk live, for the first time. The magic is in the conversation, so we'll have a very special guest. You know what's probably most cool about this is this will be the first time that the we need to talk community will come together in person. You know, I'm curious to see, what does everyone look like? What do they smell like? Sheffield, July 5th at the Crucible Theater. So to get tickets, very simple.

It's crossed wires. It's very important to buy tickets quickly because they will go fast. We'll make sure that there's a link below. You said this place was steps from the water. We just haven't found the steps yet. How much did we save? Enough to get lost. Or you could book a stay with Hilton.

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Book it with Priceline. Download the Priceline app or visit Priceline.com. Actual prices may vary, limited time offer. So because we haven't seen your roller coaster when you think about the flow and the app, right? What was the lowest moment for you on the show? I think probably in the last couple years. And you could see it because I was changing.

I cut my hair off. I didn't want anybody to see me as I was. I was changing. I was like a chameleon. I just wanted to blend in. But I was sticking out like a sore thumb because I was, you know, with bleach blonde hair, like just tight or like with a mohawk.

I didn't know what I wanted to be. I just didn't want to be seen. Okay. Okay. If you're willing, can we talk about what has happened in the last few years of your life to make you want to not be seen? I got myself into a relationship that I shouldn't have. Can we step by step go through this? So when you were divorced for a second time, Do you feel any of that weight on you?

Yeah. Yeah, I felt shame. I felt embarrassed. That I couldn't keep anyone around me. And I had said to myself, No, I'm not, no, I'm not gonna, you know, not gonna get into a relationship. Uh-uh, no.

Spend some time on your own. But I don't know how to be on my own. And that's so dangerous. and what's even more dangerous is when you go on social media and then people are sending you messages and sliding into your DMs and you know they look like

they look the part they say the right things right this particular person right that we're referring to from what I understand this person messages you

first and in essence the sentiment is what? Is it checking in, is he? Are you available? Like, what's the... No, it was, it was a, hey, you know, I'd love to take you out kind of thing.

And then I was like, all right, cool. Like, well, why don't you? And then it was, it just kind of snowballed from there. Interesting. So, so did the conversation continue? Continue. Messages?

Messages. Okay. Messages back and forth. Then it went to, like, video messages. And then funny things. And then FaceTime messages. And that was for about a month. And how did you feel?

I forgot. I felt like I hit the jackpot. Did you talk to any friends or family? No, because I knew they would say, no. Stop that. And that was also a red flag. that I knew that I was being naughty, that I was being cheeky, and that I was doing the wrong thing. I agree.

This is an innate flag, that is, if we are covering something up innately, we know, we know it's wrong. So you buy a ticket for him to fly in. So he flies in from another country. Okay. Then that first day together, what's that like? Awkward. you know, you're in, you're in my home.

You're, you know, you're excited. Not what I thought. At first I was like, oh, oh. But you're here now. So I have to make it work. That was my first instinct like, oh, and then you're excited. You know, you're like, oh, but, you know,

and then you look at the person. Physically I wasn't overwhelmed. It was, you know, and then I was like, oh, probably just get, I probably just, it's just nervous. Brad Flag. I knew. But why didn't I listen?

Why didn't you? I don't know. Because I... I don't know what I wanted to prove. What did I want to prove? To who? To myself? Because I didn't tell my girlfriends or my family

that I had a man flying over to stay with me, possibly live with me. Okay. But when he arrives, though, was the idea he would just be a pop-in, pop out a few days, or what was the thought? We didn't have a plan. There's no plan. There's no plan. He was just coming. Okay, you're welcome to my home. Wow. He's now your home as well.

Okay. And then from there, he just took over. I had pictures of my, of me dancing with someone else around the house. I mean, I am a professional dancer. this is what I do and he would take them down or anything that was like of just me he took everything down and he'd wanted to make the place his as well right so did you both consider yourself what when he arrived was it we're seeing each other yeah we're okay we're seeing each other but i would imagine though you're you paid for the ticket so immediately

you have to start spending for things together like, okay, we're going to eat tonight, you know, who's getting the groceries or who's, so when those things start happening, who's paying? Me. Always. Always. All right. But there's no flag. What's the excuse?

I'm helping. In my head, I was like, well, of course he doesn't have a job yet. he's you know and obviously he didn't come with anything uh so i'm helping and and he would say to me you know i don't i'm going to get a job soon i'm going to get a job but you know i'll try to help out as much as i can but you know i work hard for my money and i you know was bankrolling everything okay was there anything positive happening i mean you had companionship, I would imagine that's positive. But was there anything beneficial in your life with him being present?

I was just not home alone. But there was nothing that was being integrated. There's nothing that kind of fulfilled me. But nothing, I wasn't, he wasn't providing anything. There was no enhancement in my emotional being or, you know, physical being or in any way. I was just doing, I was going back to work. I was working, I was doing my thing, coming in and out of the house, and just letting him settle down. Okay.

Okay. So as he's settling, right, you're introducing him to friends and family. So the initial reaction from friends was what? They weren't excited by him at all. because to other people it was like a big no like no she'll get rid of him quick

and I didn't because it just got worse you don't I don't have what you have well yeah but I need to go to work every day yeah but yeah but I never see you but then oh Boire are you cheating on me no no I'm not I'm not cheating on you I just like he was accusing

accusing me yeah so are you are you cheating no I'm not cheating on you I just like that person's Instagram post. Are you sure you're not sleeping with that person? No, no, no. Can you send me a picture of where you are and where you're with? Yeah, I'm lit. I had to check in everywhere I went. There's people chasing me. You have to leave the house. What? What do you mean? I have to leave. What? So I have to leave my house, but this is my house. Well, why do I have? Yeah, you can't be here.

So, and I left. And what, what's the logic of him saying that people are chasing him? I don't know. I don't know. I don't. Obviously, whatever he had going on, whatever was happening, I didn't want to be a part of it. So I'd just leave. I'd just go away. And then I'd come. When can I come back home? Five days later.

Okay. Are the dogs okay? Yeah, they're fine. You can come back now. Okay. But the grip that he had on me. It paralyzed. to me. It's really hard to explain when he proposed to me. I didn't tell anybody.

And he was saying, what don't you call? I'm like, no, no. I can't. They'll kill me. They'll be, disappointed. But, you know, I'm happy, of course, and I wouldn't wear it. Why was I so attached to this feeling of insecurity, of gaslighting to the max. In my previous relationships, there was no such thing as that there are probably hints of it, probably, but this was at a different level. It's interesting because I think that there's certain terms that we use nowadays, and we misuse them. Yes. But I suspect in this case,

this was actual gas lighting, or this could be. So what's an example of that? You know, once we got married, we moved. He almost took me away from everything, took me away from my friends. And I was like, okay, great, that's fine. You know, let's move up, you know, bigger house,

you know, I can, the rent is lower, I can, you know, I'll travel back and forth. And then it was the text messages that I would get. It was the attack of text messages. Finding myself, sorry, in a situation where I couldn't control because I was afraid. Karen, did you fear for your life? At times, and I stayed with him. It's almost like he had a hold of me. and I just didn't know how to let

I started losing my hair panic attacks I couldn't sleep I couldn't do my job properly and I couldn't get away from him I wasn't allowed to go to places with my friends because he thought that we would talk

about him and I was so battered emotionally that I just didn't care like I mean I was working most of the time down in London So I don't really know what else was happening behind my back. I was just in panic mode. All the time.

Panic mode. That love should not be panic. It's almost like he made up things to scare me so then I wouldn't go anywhere. But it's okay. I'm just, you know, I just get on with it. I get on with it and I smile because I don't want to cause trouble. I don't want to trouble. I don't want to shake things up because that will put you in a bad mood,

which then makes my day really awful. And that's the state I lived in. Constantly. I lived in, you okay? Yeah? Okay, great. He's good. Oh, yeah, I'm just with my friends.

Yeah, I got to bed early. No, I didn't. I would lie. So I was not only lying to my family and my friends about where I was mentally and how I was feeling physically. they were seeing it. But I was lying to him as well because that's the only way

that I could get through the day. That you can keep it. And that it keeps, you know, peace. While you're on strictly. Yeah. You're going through this. Yeah. And so you said you

started suffering with alopecia? The way that my body was telling me that there was something wrong with my central nervous system emotionally. physically everything was showing to the point where I the day of the wedding my brother came up to me and he was like we can walk out right now walk out with me my friends everyone was like trying to stop this from happening I wish they would have just taken me I wish they would have

grabbed me and just put me in a car and I would have kicked and screamed, but I wouldn't have gone through more hell. Because it didn't hurt me physically, so you couldn't see it. Oh. It was that. Digging, digging, digging, punching, punch. Every dig, every text, every call. why did I let someone do that to me? What's so sad in this is that you had loved ones. Yeah. Who wanted to pull you out. Yeah.

Right. But as you admitted, you know, you were lying to them as well. So they may not even have known the severity of your circumstance. It may only have been you. What was the most challenging moment for you? I remember I went. There was a weekend that I had to work, but there was a pink was in concert.

Okay. And my two best friends, we got tickets, and I was able to get away as an excuse as well that I was working down in London. So I came down and it was just the weekend. And I cried. For the first, I would say, 30 minutes, 30, 35 minutes of the show, the freedom of being out there with my friends

and then them holding me up and going, you got this, you have to do this. You have to do this. And then obviously getting a call from him and going, why did you take your luggage? Yeah, but I was doing it because I'm bringing my dance clothes. Yeah, but you never do that because he was afraid that I was going to leave. It's almost like he knew what was coming. Okay.

But I remember that moment of going. Is that you have to let go? I have to. You have to break free. Yes. And I have to do it because if not, something's going to happen to me. And as he started to suspect that you were trying to break free, did you feel the reins tighten almost?

He became volatile because he started losing control of me. And it was game on for him. him. He pulled every, every shot. He pulled every, every string. He did everything he needed to do to try to get my attention, to try to get me away from what I was doing to go and see him. To see him. So how do you step out of a situation like that? Well, I reached out to some of his family and they were very supportive. And obviously they told me more that I was unaware of, a lot of the issues that were there, that he had lied to me about. You know, I always had someone with me.

I brought my mom over from New York, so she was with me. Oh, interesting. Okay. And she's a pit bull. So she was ready with her bat. Yeah. And I obviously spoke to him. You know, he was trying every, everything.

I'm going to change. I'm doing this for us. You know. and I just said that I want you to put yourself first. I need to put myself first. And I was very serious with him. But at the same time, I had to be sensitive enough to not push him over the edge. And he left the house.

You know, there were repercussions. There was things that he was still trying to do. with the divorce and with everything, made it difficult. But I stood my ground because I knew that what he wanted was me to lose my control, my cool. And I was never, ever going to let him have that.

Was there an intervention that happened with your friends and family? Did they... Yeah. Really? Yeah, constantly. But one that worked, because I find that interventions can be highly effective.

And it's something that I encourage more friends and family to do when we see a loved one drifting away. So what was the effective intervention? It was when I went away with girls. Okay. It was that girls weekend. And it wasn't like, you need to do this. It was they let me talk.

Okay. And they allowed me to express myself. and they listen to me, and they then very, very gently, when we can do this, we have all these options, we can take care of this, you have all this support around you. And that's when I started feeling that I could do it because I felt safe, that I would fall back into safe hands and not just into the abyss on my own. Okay.

What else strikes me in this, Karen, is that, you know, when you were telling me about you as a little girl, on the roller skates and you have all this turmoil happening in your life but you are the smiley kids this is precisely what was happening to you

because I would imagine you show up on strictly it's the smiley kids all over again you know and no one could have fathom this was happening to you behind closed doors no one

no but you just put the smile on. Yeah. And you went out there. But you said that you, while you wanted to disappear, you felt like you were becoming more visible. Can you speak to that? Yeah. I mean, in a way, I was becoming someone that was bold and that was making drastic decisions.

And I was creating a new persona in a way. That was still me. I was evolving, which was very strengthening from the inside in a way, because I wasn't the perfect girl, the long hair, the beautiful teeth and the tan, you know. I cut my hair off and I wanted to rebel. I'm who I want to be. I don't want to please everybody.

I used to. But now I just want to be. You know, I'm in a new relationship. Okay. Okay. I see the smile. You know? I see the smile.

And it's the first, it's my first proper relationship. At 43 years old, he has a job. Tick. Take. He takes care of himself. Tick. We have conversations about what we want, our values. I'm still a little bit messy.

but he he and the thing with me what I'm navigating right now is is learning when to accept when someone's telling me this is the way you should do it and now this is how you do it yes so making sure that I understand where you're coming from without without going where are you telling me what to do instead of what you're trying to help me okay I understand that and that's what I'm learning in this relationship yeah which which is beautiful then when you say you're better. I would imagine you feel healthier than ever. Can we talk about the alopecia? And you mentioned a panic attack as well. I would imagine this was brought on by stress. One in three women will experience alopecia at one point in their lives. That blew me away. And women with high

levels of stress are 11 times more likely to experience hair loss than women who are more relaxed. Now, panic attacks, one in three people in the UK will experience some sort of panic attack, which I didn't realize. That's how prevalent it is. And women are two times more likely than men to have panic attacks. And what this says to me is it shows how incredibly important our relationships are. So do you still suffer from alopecia and do you still suffer from panic attacks? No. Not at all?

Nothing. I experienced two panic attacks and one was during intermission after a performance that I was in the West End in the same place where I danced with, actually with the same company. Oh, wow. And I was, we run through the, we run through the audience and then we go back through the, front of the house. And I remember that all of a sudden, it was a very stressful day already, but I was already stressed out because of him. Yes. So anytime I had anything major happening in my life, something happened that he would do to make sure that I didn't have a good day. Yes. To make sure that all attention was on him. I don't exactly remember what happened with him,

but I was definitely fighting with him. And I remember getting off the state. running and then I started having the panic attack in the front of the house. Then they rushed me to the back and I was just crying. I couldn't breathe and they were putting ice on me. And then obviously I only had 20 minutes, you know, intermission and I had to get myself set to do the second half of the show in front of friends and family and press. And my hair has grown back. My panic attacks are not there.

I am sleeping better I don't drink and that's not a I want to be clear I want to heal in every way yes and now that you're in this very introspective place

looking back now how do you think friends and family could have helped you prior to the intervention Yeah. It's really tough because you are not thinking straight, you know. You're in this unprotective. I don't want to.

La, la, la, la, la. You're literally like that. Yes. I'm not going to listen to you. This is my life. I know what I'm going to do. I know what I need to do. So you're in this like attack mode.

Uh-uh. So it's understanding where you're coming from, which is hard, which is hard for everyone, everyone around me was understanding. And I think they were just giving me time. They just gave me time because they knew I would figure it out. And they were there. There was never a time where I felt

that if I didn't call my friend and I went, I'm done, they would literally put everything down and come and get me. It was almost like they were waiting for that call. I wish somebody would have just forced me. forced me out of it. How so? Like a physical intervention.

Physical. You know, so I've a family member who we in essence created an intervention moment, almost duped them into thinking they were going to one place and they went to another place and we kind of sat around and talked to the person. but what we didn't do is almost lock the door to keep them in there but it sounds like that's what you're saying

and you're saying that you needed to be a physical barrier to keep you there but do you think that would have you would have helped you would have listened probably okay probably because that would have broken me down okay

that would broken me down because you were leaving it up to me in which I was not capable of making us decisions at that moment. For someone who's in a new relationship, what are some of the early signs from your lived experience that you could share with people to say, watch out for these things? It's the things with your friends when they don't want you to be around your friends. We don't want you to be around family.

It makes them uncomfortable. Why does it make you uncomfortable? people. You know, it's, it's, and that's when the isolation slowly starts. It's the constant, um, checking up on you. Where are you? What are you doing? I'm just here. And then they constantly keep at it. Checking on you, checking on you, checking on you, who you're with, what's going on. I mean, the fact that I had to, I had to send a picture of myself in my bed making sure that nobody was next to me. Wow. Wow. I've not heard of that before. Yeah. Or they video call you, they FaceTime you, and show me around your room.

Really? Open the closet. What? Yeah. It can get very extreme very quickly. But you know, the space that we haven't spent enough time on, I suspect you feel this, is that you had a broken heart before. you're meeting this gentleman. You get a broken heart. And I don't think that we in society give enough due to what a broken heart does to us psychologically. You know, a lot of researchers will liken a broken heart to the physical pain of breaking a limb. What I feel you did is you said, I need anything to soothe this pain.

Here's someone giving me attention. and then you're ignoring the red flags because all you're seeking are the green. You talked about turning away the good ones, looking into the bad ones, right, this repetition compulsion that we talked about. You know, you could see how our every interaction that we have throughout our life shapes and impacts the next. relationship that we have. And this is why I'm so happy to hear you talk about you being in a healthy space, in a healthy relationship, right? Because you've picked up lesson after lesson after lesson.

You have a master's degree. I want to write a fuck. In relationship lessons, you know what I mean? You have a master's degree out here. I never thought I was going to be a professional at that. You're a double professional. You could dance and you have all this. You know, throughout your life, right, one consistent is that you are a hard worker.

Yeah. Right. You are always, you are grinding, you're grinding, you're grinding, you're grinding. And the speakeasy tour, I didn't realize how many dates did you do on the speak easy tour? 40. 40 dates all around the UK. Yeah. Yes.

There was one I was trying to go to. Yeah, there was. I think I was filming or I was in, yeah, I was filming somewhere. So the tour is over now. Yeah. But will it come back? We'll see. Well, we'll see, yeah.

We'll see depending on scheduling, et cetera. But I'd love for it to come back, 100%. All right. And then, of course, strictly. Yes. Right. So this is 14th year. Strictly.

14th year. Oh, yeah. Right? So longest running professional. How does that make you feel? Good. Good. Good.

I like it. Yes. I'm 43, I feel great. I feel on top of my game. I'm dancing really well. I feel stable. And that is one thing that I hadn't had in a long time. So to be back to a show that brings happiness,

makes joy, you know, drama. Yes, yes. It's great. Yes. And I would imagine contributing to that joy is, Are you in love? Yes. Yes.

There you go. That's joy. Yeah. It's good. I can see, we're in the same zone in life. It's just like, we don't want any drama. You know, I have my own path. And I'll continue on my own little path.

So on that path, what else is on the future of that path? I'd love to do a little bit of everything. Okay. You know, acting, hopefully, you never know. judging on strictly. Oh, okay. You know, judging anywhere else in another country. In another language, I speak Spanish if anybody wants to sing me.

You know, who knows, writing a book, doing stuff. Yes. You know, but and also being with the community, being with people, helping children, you know, dance and, you know, helping adults dance and discover themselves, you know, from the inside. Yes. and that it's okay to feel a bit funny and feel a bit different. It's learn how to enjoy yourself. Yes. And I think we do need to start a petition to have you be a judge on strictly.

I think we could do that. We could just make it happen. Someone has to leave first. We could just make that happen. Just put an extra chair for me. Yeah. But no, no, I think that would be, that would be incredible. Incredible. Is there anything that we have not discussed? Because we've talked about a lot.

Oh, I know. But think, if there's anything that we have not discussed that you would like to. I'm not a victim. And I've risen from every time that I've been down, I've gotten up and I've continued. and that's what I will keep doing. And God help those men. Oh my gosh. I didn't know you're going to end it like that. But yeah, that was good. That was good.

So then the final question that everyone gets, that is really my favorite question, is Karen, when you think about how incredible your life has been, right, and the experiences that you've had, you've had many conversations. with many people. What was the most memorable conversation you had? Who was it with? And what did you learn? My mom just came to stay with me for about three months,

three, four months. She stayed with me. And she opened up to me about her past. And, you know, listen, my mom is 73 now. She's getting older. And she was, she saw how distrable. I was and what I was going through. And she had never really opened herself up.

You'd never really know much about your parents. I would never go and ask my mom, hey, so what happened to you, like, back in 72? She literally went through the same thing. The line, the, you know, she ended up having a child, my sister. but the man that she was with literally turned her life upside down and she walked away with a child and I've seen my mom

and her ups and downs and I've always seen her get up never ever as it stopped her from being a tough lady with resilience And I think that's what my mom has taught me is resilience. But I've never seen this vulnerable side of my mom because she refused to show that to us

because there was no time to show vulnerability when we were in need. So to see her open up to me like that, it just showed me that I have the greatest role model in my mother. Oh! It's beautiful. Yeah. You know, what I can't help but think is just as your mother opened up and shared that with you, you've done the same with all of us.

You've opened up, you've shared a story that you've never shared before. And just as your mother's sharing those stories with you, it helped you. It empowered you, it inspired you, it made you more resilient. Your experience was not in vain because I believe it will literally, you telling this, story not only has set you free, but it will set free many, countless others. So thank you, you know, for that. We are all cheering for you. I love that.

I love with marriage. I am. Yeah. I'm going to be married soon. Everybody's invited. I love cake. We will all come. We will all come.

I'm kidding. I'm not getting married. But, but, but, but truly true. You know what's interesting is, the word that I have for is, is inspiring. This has been inspiring, you know, so thank you. Thank you. Herring Howard, you know, her body language, I thought, was, was, it was very expressive. And it makes sense because she's a dancer, you know, so she was so expressive with her body language.

And I think some people may look at that and say, oh, she's, she's, she's performing. But no, that's how she communicates. You could see how at a very early age, a coping mechanism that she developed was to basically transform into the smiley person. And in one way, you could say, oh, that's a negative coping behavior. But another, you could look at how that is one of the ways that she's been so successful as a dancer, because she's been able to compartmentalize and perform. Karen kept her third husband hidden from her friends and family, and she said it plainly.

She never would have entered the relationship if her friends and family had met her partner. But that is a great takeaway for the audience, is that if you're unsure, if you are intentionally hiding that from people that you love, and you respect is wrong. Because, and why is this, right? Our friends and family, the ones who truly love and adore us, they have our best interest at heart.

The key is to look at the consensus. You know, for example, like with my brother, my brother knows I never liked any of his girlfriends, except for his current girlfriend. Can I say that? But my brother's super smart. He would bring his girlfriend around me my wife, my mother, my father, and he would take a consensus.

All right, I know Paul's not going to like her, but what does everyone else think? If everyone else didn't like her, then he knows. And I guarantee you where the consensus is is where is the direction that you need to head in. Spring just slid into your DMs. Grab that boho look for that rooftop dinner, those sandals that can keep up with you, and hang some string lights to give your patio a glow up. Springs Calling Ross, work your magic.

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