We Need To Talk with Paul C. Brunson - EXCLUSIVE Nadiya Hussain Breaks Silence on BBC Exit! The Truth About My Decade On TV

Episode Date: July 15, 2025

Nadiya Hussain breaks her silence after being axed by the BBC, and how being the “relatable Muslim” on TV came at the cost of her voice, her identity, and her mental health. In this exclusive conversation, the Great British Bake Off winner shares the truth about her decade in TV, what really happened behind the scenes and why she could no longer stay silent. Known for her warmth and resilience, Nadiya reflects on what it really means to be a Muslim woman in British media - and why she now believes she was chosen to tick a box, not to be heard. Nadiya reveals: ◽️ Why she believes her BBC shows were cancelled ◽️ The moment she knew the TV industry had no space for her full self ◽️ How childhood bullying, racism, and abuse shaped her view of womanhood ◽️ The devastating truth behind her anxiety and panic attacks ◽️ Her 19-year arranged marriage and how their love grew into deep partnership ◽️ The “monster” she carries every day: living with lifelong anxiety ◽️ How faith became her anchor when nothing else made sense If you’ve ever felt boxed in, overlooked, or silenced - this episode is for you. Nadiya Hussain, We Need To Talk. This episode contains discussions of suicide and sexual assault. We’ve included links to support charities below: Survivor’s Trust: https://g2ul0.app.link/HOj44LvWZUb Samaritans: https://g2ul0.app.link/1CRhatR7mPb  CALM: https://g2ul0.app.link/YvmzhM17mPb  MIND: https://g2ul0.app.link/d72yzu7jJOb Follow me here: https://www.instagram.com/needtotalk  https://www.tiktok.com/@weneedtotalkpod  Support Nadiya here: Instagram: https://g2ul0.app.link/wCgpgZWUZUb Rooza: https://g2ul0.app.link/KxpX8k1UZUb  (00:00) Intro (01:59) Nadiya's Family and Their Journey to the UK in the 1950s (06:51) Nadiya's Relationship to Her Parents (09:01) Nadiya's Favourite Memory of Her Childhood Home (12:43) Nadiya's Experience of Sexual Abuse as a Child (16:24) Nadiya's Experience of Intense Bullying at School and Suicidal Ideation (23:23) Nadiya's Perspective on Being a Muslim Woman (28:57) Mental Health Issues in the UK Muslim Community (34:11) Nadiya's Thoughts on Being an Ally for the Muslim Community (35:41) Nadiya's Arranged Marriage (50:28) How Nadiya Made Her Marriage Work After Limited Time Together Pre-Wedding (54:22) Nadiya's Journey Living with Anxiety (1:01:58) Tinder Ad (1:03:06) How Nadiya Got on to Bake Off (1:05:38) Nadiya's Experience of Winning Bake Off and the Aftermath (1:07:13) How Does It Feel to Be 'Alien'? (1:10:18) The Impact of Death Threats (1:11:55) The Positive Impact of Fame (1:13:30) The Speech That Nadiya Gave After Winning Bake Off (1:15:48) What Happened in the Aftermath of Nadiya's Win (1:18:44) The Negative Aspects of Working in the TV Industry (1:23:16) Nadiya's Experience of Making Complaints in the TV Industry (1:33:23) Why Did the BBC Choose to Stop Nadiya's Shows? (1:36:26) What the Future Holds for Nadiya (1:40:04) Most Memorable Conversation (1:45:09) Paul's Takeaways Sponsored by: Tinder: https://tinder.com/en-GB  ♥️Get The Love Journal now: https://bit.ly/lovejournal-mp  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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The BBC, they'll keep you till you're of no use to them. The second you don't fit the meat little box, there'll be no space for you. I don't fit that space anymore. Nadia Hussein. I was really anxious. I grew up in quite a volatile home. My parents always argued. I felt so alone, so isolated.

My father-in-law and my dad were friends. And they said, oh, I've got a son and I've got a daughter. I needed an exit, and he was my exit. He sat there and he goes, you are the most beautiful thing I've ever, ever seen. And I think I believed him in that moment. How does he become your connection to television? One day, he just said, you could do that. Bake Off.

I said, no, I couldn't. Don't be ridiculous. Because I was in the throes of depression. I was really badly bullied at school because I had the darkest skin. They would flush my head down the toilet, exposed themselves to me. But it's also made me really strong. I live in a world where I am different. Didn't even think about it. Okay.

Until I actually walked into the Bake Off tent. I had to have the production team live in my house because of the death threats. I'll never forget it. My whole life, I've constantly shrunk myself to make everybody else comfortable. I didn't realize how important it was. to be the voice for the voiceless. Do you believe that speaking your truth is one of the reasons why your shows at BBC

were not recommissioned? All right, before we begin, I want to say from the bottom of my heart, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you. Why? Because we can't believe how far we've come with this podcast. But in particular, we've come this far because of you. Your support means everything,

whether it's a comment, whether it's a DM, whether I get stopped in the street, which I do and I appreciate, I just want to say how much we appreciate. And if you have not yet subscribed, I want you to click the subscribe button or hit that bell icon. What it allows us to do is bring you more and more of these incredible conversations. And that being said, let's get into it. Nadi Hussein, we need to talk.

Are you ready? I am so ready. You are the first person I'm talking to since. my life has changed so dramatically in terms of my career. And my husband said, you've got to pick the best person to sit with who will get you, who will understand you. He goes, you know Paul Fitz.

Come on. He was like, he goes, it's a no-brainer. You know you want to go and talk to Paul. And I was like, yeah, he's right. Yep. Oh, my gosh. Yeah, so you're, it's, it's, it's, I'm so happy I'm here. Oh my gosh.

Nadia, I can't tell you how happy, proud, that you're here and that we're doing this. Yeah, so much. And I dropped you this message saying, I don't think I've ever researched anyone more. You're going to be fed up on the sign of my voice. Oh, my gosh. I know where you were in 1986 at 2 p.m. on December.

But it is one of those where I have, and I think it was because I am so fascinated by your story, but also because of how. interconnected, I believe you are with my story. Yeah. And I think there's a lot of similarities that we share. Yeah. Many, many, many.

And I'm sure we'll get to it. That being said, I'd love to start with how your family came here from Bangladesh. My dad had already come over and he was seven when he came to this country. So he was quite young. Oh, wow. Okay. So he doesn't know any different, to be honest. So he came over when he was seven.

but my parents are cousins. So they all lived in one house. My dad, my mom, all lived in one house. And then they went back to Bangladesh, and that's where my parents got married. And then they moved back and then lived together. It was so odd. This is interesting.

Yeah. But I would imagine, though, being cousins, that's not culturally, that's not distinct. No, no, no. That's very common. Totally common. Like really common. And our family's massive.

Absolutely huge. Give you an example of how big our family is. I'm one of 67 or 68. Grandkids? 67 or 68? Maybe there's more. I don't know. Your parents, so they're first generation immigrants.

Yeah. They were born in Bangladesh. They come here. It was an arranged marriage. Yeah. They're here. They now have children. Yeah.

Born here. So what pressure do you feel they faced here? My granddad who came here, my mom. dad faced racism. He was left for dead three times. And I asked my grandma, why didn't he leave? He could have gone. He could have just packed up, picked everything up and just gone back to the safety of his country. And the weather's better there. You know, like the weather's better there. I was like, why didn't you just go back? And my grandma just said, because he didn't do it for himself. He did it for you. So you could have a better life. And that's, that's, that's, that's, that's,

That really stayed with me because I realized that my granddad saw a bigger picture. He picked himself up, dragged himself out of that hospital and went back to work and said, nope, because I see a bigger picture. I see my grandchildren living a life here. The only reason why I'm sat here today is because my granddad didn't give up. And that is huge for me and I must never forget that. And I always tell my kids that story. Despite what happened to him, he made himself, he forced him. himself to forget that he forced himself to forget that and bury that for us we weren't even here

yes like that's a deep love that is yeah that is it gives me chills thinking about it yeah because you think of the pain he had to endure and you're talking about this love that he has for these human beings that are not even here yet yeah so it's this dream in essence that that he has and that dream is so powerful that it outstrips any bit of any pain you can't inflict any any type of pain on him because the dream is more powerful yeah like it's just incredible yeah like warriors they're like warriors they were yes yes so i would so i'm assuming but you you correct me is that there's an element of that that your mother has and that that your that your father has and maybe that is one of the reasons why they feel like they don't have to step out of the community

because it's like we're here and we're here to provide for our children so they can do that. Yeah, absolutely. I think when your only goal is to provide, keep a roof over our heads, to put food on the table, then there's no room for dreams. It's just survival. Yes. It's just survival. and I see that because my parents, that's what they do.

They just survive. They don't dream. They don't aspire. They don't think bigger than their own house. They're just like, nope, this is it. And that makes me really sad because I look at my parents and I look at people around them who are in the same situation and think, there's got to be more. There's got to be more.

Surely you wanted more. Did you not want more? And I asked my mom, I can't ask her that because she will never. give me an answer. What do you think the answer to that is? If I were to ask my mom that, my mom is very, she would just say,

I think she'd tell me to shut up and just, just, I don't know, I think she would, my mom is the least maternal mother in the world. Like, she is very much kind of like, stop asking questions. I'm not going to answer that question. She doesn't, she wouldn't answer it. I don't think she would answer that question. I don't think she,

I don't think she could say it out loud Interesting Yeah For someone who's just providing Right I would imagine that it's very hard Then to have an emotional connection Yes

So growing up then What was your emotional connection With your mother and your father I have I think there's a difference Between love and duty And as a more Muslim, we're raised to be dutiful. Love is a different, I mean, of course you're supposed to love

your parents and as a Muslim we're taught to love our parents. But for me, my relationship with my parents is very dutiful, so I do what needs doing. Love is definitely there because they're my parents and I love them. But in terms of an actual connection, like if I had the worst day in my life, if I had one of the worst days ever, I would never call my parents. Never, never, ever. They just make me feel worse. Yeah, they would just make me feel worse because for them, they've got no space. There's no room for emotion.

You had a bad day? Get over it. Get on with it. But that's what they did. Because they had a bad day. They didn't cry. or if they did, they did it quietly, silently, silently away from everyone else. They didn't have anyone to go to to say, hey, you know, I'll look after you and I'll love you and I'll console you.

So they are just repeating what they experienced. Yes. Yeah, I don't think I have a deep emotional connection to them. Okay. We can sit and have a cup of tea and we can talk about whatever they want to talk about. but I wouldn't talk about what I want to talk about or how I'm feeling because that's just that space was never created

but I'm not mad about it it's made me realize what I need to be as a parent so it's taught me that I've got to create a space for my children to be able to come to me and talk to me about anything when you think about you as a little girl the most magnificent memory, the most beautiful, the happiest.

What were you and the family doing? Oh, so my dad's wild and slightly out of control. We were in the house, the phone goes off, picked it up, and dad said, open the front door, open the gates, and hold them shut, I'm coming. So we had white butcher's overalls on, covered in blood. and he had a whole sheep on his back. Did he? Came in.

And then he said, clear the dining table, clear the dining table. So we cleared the dining table. He slaps this dead sheep on the table. And he said, do you remember that? And he said to my mum, you remember that chainsaw I bought from the Sunday market?

Mom said, yeah, get it out, plug it in. So we, my dad said, how long do you think it will take me to chainsaw this sheep down to like bits? I don't know. One hour? and he said, I can do it, I can do it faster than that.

So got his chainsaw out, chainsawed the entire sheep, cut it up into small pieces, and then as he sort of was finishing, he said, go dig a hole in the garden. Okay? This is my dad. And this is, like, on a Sunday night, when we've got school in the morning,

the next day. So we're digging this hole, digging this hole, and then he starts a fire, puts three bricks down, puts a huge pot, pot big enough to fit at least, least five children in. We know because we tried. We all got in. Started a fire and he cooked this entire sheep. The whole thing. And then he called all of our extended family, which is about, I don't know, probably about 45, 50 people. And yeah, just

call them all over and said, get everyone to start chopping onions. And they were all chopping onions and they cooked this thing into the night. So they cooked this. Imagine how delicious it was. They cooked it into the night. They took their time. And I fell asleep outside. All I remember is just all my uncle's smoking cigarettes, my aunties, my mom having cups of tea, and this pot just going and the warmth. Like I always remember the warmth of that pot because it was like the fire.

Yes. Yeah, just the heat. And it was lovely to see the human side of my dad. Like that was his element. Like that was where he was happiest. Yes. Yes. And that was one of your happiest memories.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And what I find so interesting about recalling our happiest memory is that oftentimes, I think we're forced to look at traumatic events and then analyze how those traumatic events impact us and how we show up as adults as a result of them. And that is true. But I think we should do the same for these magnificent events. So when you think about that moment, how did that shape the Nadia that sits? in front of me today. Oh, it's, it's, I'm, I am, I'm basically the same person. You were the person who digs holes.

Yes, I do, house on a Sunday night. Yes. Regardless of what's tomorrow. Yeah, I'm like, yeah, I'm also the parent who's like, you don't, do you not fancy, I mean, I shouldn't say this, but do you not fancy going to school today? Do you, should we just go shopping? I'm like, I'm that parent, too. Are you, okay.

It's bad, it's bad because my wife is like, no, they're going to school. Yeah. A quick one before we get into this. Our conversation includes sexual assault and suicidal thoughts. If these topics are difficult for you, please watch with care. We've added support links to the episode description. So when you think about your problems as a young girl, so you always looked at your problems as much smaller, insignificant,

to the point where I would imagine you didn't even discuss them. No. No. Never. Can we talk about those insignific. as you thought they were then incidents that happened to you as a child. Because as I do the research, these were absolutely not insignificant. Oh, yeah.

Now that I'm a mom. Yes. Now that I'm a mom, they were things that needed to be spoken about and dealt with. But, you know, as a five-year-old, I was sexually abused by my cousin. And I didn't really know that that was sexual abuse until I was in my biology lesson in year eight and we were having, it was a sex education class and I was like, and the penny dropped.

I put the two together and I was like, that happened to me. And then I just, I remember vomiting profusely. And my teacher said, are you unwell? and I said, no, I'm fine. And that was it. Didn't tell the teacher, didn't say anything, just quietly, because this was a cousin that I was around all the time.

He was there all the time. And he was in our house, and he was upstairs, and he was everywhere. What was your family's reaction? In hindsight, knowing that this was happening to you as a little girl. We don't talk about it. Nobody talks about it. I can sit here and tell the whole world, but I cannot have that conversation with my mom and dad, ever.

Because, yeah, no. Even now I'm kind of debating, should I? Absolutely not. I can almost see you in your mind. You thought for a second, you thought, well, maybe, should I? No. But no. No, I would rather, I would, no, I would, no.

No? No. Have your parents read your book? No. No. I did give it to them, but no, they won't have read the book. They won't have read the book. Okay.

Okay. No. That's one where normally I have a response and an answer to everything. Mm-hmm. I don't have, I can't reconcile that. But in particular for you, I mean, help me understand how you feel, knowing that you cannot have that conversation. Would you like to be able to have that conversation? Would I like to, if they were different people, yeah?

Yeah, if they were, if I know them too well, I know that I know what I'll be met with, I live in a community where the men are protected. And to be fair, we live in a society. where men are always protected. And I just, I don't want anyone to say that it was my fault. Because I think that's what I'm going to hear, and I think I don't want to hear that. If I hear that, I'll lose it, and I don't want to hear that.

What I would hate to see is I feel like I would be, I would be blamed and he would be protected. And I just can't, I could, I can't dig that up. Yeah. I see it. I see it. What are some of those other incidents that have while you were a little girl at school? Because there are many that you've talked about.

Yeah, I was really badly bullied at school from the age of four to about 17, 18. Oh, wow. Same two boys. And I never told anyone about that. They would flush my head down the toilet. They would expose themselves to me. they have tried to sexually assault me

whilst I'm in the street they have held me down and smashed my fingers into hinges of doors they have ripped my hair out it was every single day from the age of about four or five to about 17 or 18 every day Every day.

Yeah. I even went to an old girl school, but they were next door in the all-boys school. So they would wait for me to come out. So it's almost like they got their fix. And the reason why they bullied me was because I had the darkest skin in school. They were very fair, rosy-cheeked Pakistani boys. So they pretty much, you know, they're same sort of culture.

as me. But they were bright white with rosy pink cheeks and dark black hair and that's what our community celebrated. Fair skin, men, perfect, tick, tick, they're perfect. And there I was, short, dark skin girl with really big curly hair and they just, they just, that's, that was there, that was the thing. And they, they bullied me every single day, every single day. So this is one where, There were some incidents that happened for me when I was a child, but sparingly. Okay, yeah. And what's interesting for me is it's not until I've started having these conversations here with we need to talk where I've begun to contemplate on how those incidents have shaped who I've become today. You had, this is severe trauma that's happened for an extended period of time in your adolescence.

when you're trying to figure out who you are and what your identity is. So how do you think that impacted how you saw yourself as a little girl? I think it's made me really, really protective of my feelings, and it's made me really insular. I think it's made me not trust people, because I don't trust people easily. but it's also made me a people pleaser, I think. I just want to make everyone happy

because I don't want, like, I don't want negativity and I just want like, people pleasing all the time. It's like as long as everyone's happy, as long as everyone's happy. But that's probably partly to do with the fact that, you know, I grew up in quite a volatile home. You know, my parents always argued. I just wanted everyone to always be happy. We didn't talk about anything bad.

It was just always be happy. But it's, yeah, it's also made me really strong. It's also made me a really good mom. Okay. But as a little girl, how do you think it impacted you? It got so bad that one afternoon, I remember my cousin. They were a little bit older than I was. And we were watching a film.

Clearly not for me because it was like an 18 or something. And somebody had committed. suicide. And I was like, oh, so that's it. So if you commit suicide, you're just dead and everything else just stops. So in my head, bearing in mind at this age, I don't know what death is, don't really understand death. Yes. You were how old at this time? Ten. You're ten. Ten. Something twigged in my head. At ten, that that's what I should do. And this person had taken loads of pills I thought, wow, those pills lying around everywhere because there was no such thing as a safe cupboard for pills.

It was like paracetamol here and blood pressure meds here. So I took out back in the day when you could get 100 paracetamols in a pack. I was like, that'll do. Took those off the shelf, went upstairs with a big glass of water. I thought, I'll just take as many of those as I can. Because that's what will happen. I'll die. And then I don't have to go to school tomorrow.

That is how innocent it was. It was if I die, I don't have to go to school tomorrow. And that's what I did. So I was like, okay. And I was 10, I couldn't swallow pills. And they were huge. So I was trying to swallow them. And I probably had a liter of water in me at this point.

My bladder was bursting. And I was like, right, I'm just going to have to crush them and just chew them. And I think I, so I started to chew them and crush them in my mouth. And then I was just like swallowing them. I was like, this is gross. And I just couldn't do it. And I may have got through maybe three or four. Okay.

That's it. Three or four at best. And my dad called us all down because he had something to tell us. So I thought, okay, I'll give this a break. I'll go down. So I went downstairs. And then he told us that my mom was pregnant with a baby. And then I went upstairs and I kind of packed everything away.

And I said, okay. well, I'll do it once the baby's born because I really want to meet the baby. Wow. And then that baby was born. And I fell so in love with him. And he's 30 next month. Look at that.

Yeah. Would you say he saved your life? Yeah. Yeah. Wow. I say that to him all the time. That is one of those where I can see you as this little girl. Yeah.

Just saying, I just don't want to be, it wasn't even, I don't want to go to school. I don't want to go through that pain of those nasty boys. Yeah. You know? And in that one moment, your brother, who is not yet here, saved you because of your love for him. Yes. Similar to your grandfather. Yeah.

Who had this love for these children who were not, right? But you had this love for your brother. You know, it hurts me to. here that you had no one to talk to during that time, you know. So when you think about your womanhood, what was that identity? I hated being a woman. I look at my grandma, married at the age of 12. She had eight pregnancies by the time she was 20, lost four of those. And every single time, you know, if she had a girl, every time she had a girl, she was ostracized because she had to have a boy. And she tells those stories. She still tells her stories. She said my, she had twin

daughters and she said, they died and nobody cared because they were girls. But if those twin, if they were twin boys, they would have been straight to the doctors. So that's, that's the kind of, those are the women I'm around. She was, you know, she was, she suffered domestic violence. She, she didn't read or write. I looked at my mom and my aunties, the sort of next generation that I grew up around. They were miserable. They were unhappy. There was domestic violence. There was unhappy homes. Child after child after child in the hope to bear a boy. It was not the life I wanted. I was like, no thanks. I don't want to be. I don't want to be. a wife, I don't want to be a mother, I just want to study, I just want a career, I just want to

make loads of money, that's it. I don't want to do any of that. I was like, it was the most unappealing thing. There was not one maternal bone in my body. I was like, don't want to marry, don't want to have kids, not going to do it. I just wanted to go to university. That was it. And my mum said, if you go to university and you leave this house, I will change the locks and you will never set foot in this house again. And when you're 18 with no financial backing, no money, no savings, that's a really scary thing to hear. When I didn't go to university, I rebelled in the best way I know, which is to go quiet. I went completely quiet. Nobody knew what was going on in my head. Not one person could say they knew what was happening in my head. I went quiet. I isolated.

definitely, like I was in the throes of depression at that time, hugely. And I just threw myself into work, so I got three jobs, got a car, saved up to buy a house, did all the things that I thought I wanted to do but without the degree. And you were permitted, you were allowed to do those things. Yes. And just to help me understand, why were you permitted to do those things, but not the university? Was it because you were still at home? Because I was still at home.

Okay. Because I was, I can still be managed. Okay. I still didn't socialize, didn't go out with friends, didn't, which is probably why I'm not good at friendships, because I just, I don't know how to, I don't know how much to put in or what to put in. And so I didn't socialize with friends. It was very much work and back, work. and back. I only came home to sleep to the point where I was so angry with my parents. I didn't eat at home. I was like, I do not want to eat your food. Not going to eat it. And my mom was so sad

because her love language is food. And she would like, if you didn't eat, then she was sad. So she would come to my work with a plate of food. And I'd say, I don't want it. And that was her trying to reconcile with me. And I was like, not going to have it. So I'd take the plate and I throw all the food in the in or I'd give it to someone. Do you want it? Because I don't want it. And then I lived on a diet of Pringles and Coca-Cola for a really long time. I was like, not going to have it. And that was me rebelling. That was the only way I could rebel. I couldn't scream. I couldn't shout. I couldn't fight. But I could stay, go quiet. And I could stop eating. And that caused its own problems in my adulthood. Sure, sure. But that was you protesting. Yes. To your parents. So when I'm thinking

about identity, I could see that even at 18, how child. challenging it is for you because you're thinking, oh my gosh, being a woman is not great. There's probably challenges around faith. But can I explore that? Were there any challenges around faith at 18 or did you feel fully invested in your faith at 18? Faith is the only thing that saved me. if I didn't have faith, I don't know where I would be. So I started to wear my hijab at 12, 13, so 12, I was 12 when I started to wear it.

And that was my own choice. I didn't grow up in a religious, I haven't grown up in a religious family. You know, I didn't grow up with parents that prayed and, you know, nothing, none of that. No one covered their hair. I was the first girl in my family to wear a hijab. Interesting. And what did that signify? Oh.

No one was happy about me wearing a hijab. I had cousins rip my scarf off my head. You know, my sisters didn't wear it. My mom didn't wear it. So for them, by wearing it, I was showing them up because they should have been wearing it. So it felt like I felt so alone, so isolated. And you know what that did?

That made me stronger in my faith. I could reconcile with the fact that I didn't, I wasn't close to my parents. I could understand in a piece. I could understand that for me, it didn't matter about who loved me on this earth. There is a greater being that loves me more than anyone that can love me on this earth. And for me, that gave me something to focus on. And I realized at that age, all I needed was to love someone.

So for me, that was the only real at 12. That was the first time I'd, like, connected to something that didn't hurt me. Wow. How does society impact your faith? And in particular, what I'm thinking about here is before Zahir came on, before I interviewed him, I was doing research on rates of anxiety and depression in the UK. And let me see if I can find it here. It completely blew me away.

Okay, so there are 3.9 million Muslims living in England in Wales. So it's 6.5% of the population, massive amount of the population. And the anxiety rates for young Muslims, depression rates for young Muslims, according to certain data sources, were 50% or higher. versus 25% for the population, right, standard population. So you see significant levels of depression, anxiety, suicide ideation, suicide thoughts. So how does society, one is I love to know why do you think that is, in particular here in the UK, but then also how does then society shape your faith? So in particular, for your children, facing this there in that young, that 16,

to 30 group, right? How does all of that shape their faith? What lots of people don't realize is how all-encompassing and how suffocating it is to be a Muslim in the UK. In terms of my kids, they've probably experienced more racism at a younger age than I did. The first time I ever experienced racism was the day the Twin Towers

came down. I was in college. I was 18. I was walking home. And two white men stopped their van, parked up, screeched to a hole, came out, spat in my face and drove off. And I cried all the way home and I had no idea what happened.

And I was just, I was sobbing. And I came in and Dad was watching the telly. And I said, dad said oh this is what's happened and it just like oh and it has never stopped since but my kids have experienced more racism at a younger age because you know they've been called terrorist and you know they'll wear their Friday robes for Friday prayer and it's a battle that we're going to fight for the rest of our lives and I'm not surprised that the depression and the anxiety is so high amongst Muslims because I don't think people realize the battle that we fight every single

single day and I know that as somebody who works in the public eye. Week 9 of Bakeoff, I had to have the production team live in my house because of the death threats. I had so many death threats. I had people, professional people, sending emails to say, very graphic emails about how they'd like me to die, how they would like to abuse me, how they think. They wish that my children get TB and die slow and painful deaths. I'll never forget it. To the point where the police sat in our house and said, I cannot read these out to you because they are so graphic.

And he said, I think it's better for you not to hear what people are saying. They are so graphic. So the production team lived with me for 10 days. In order to protect you. In order to protect us. We had police outside our house. and that has continued for 10 years. And nobody knows that.

Like, nobody sees that. Nobody sees the... And do I... would I have had this treatment if I was the white version of me? Absolutely not. And you know what I get all the time? It's the...

She's playing the race card. I'm not playing a card. It's a card I was dealt. It's the one that I carry with me every single day. So... it really, really has taken a lot for me not to hate humankind at points. But when you think about allyship, so take, for example, myself, I don't practice Islam. Yeah.

I'm not a Muslim, but I want to be an ally. Yeah. So how do we actually convey and express and enact our allyship? I think Muslims feel scary to lots of people. And I think if you don't sit down and have a conversation with a Muslim person, frankly and honestly, you will never know, you will never know that they are just people. Like you and me, we're all the same. We're all just the same. No, no different to when a Jehovah's Witness knocks on my door, I invite them to come in and have a cup of tea with me.

Don't stand at my doorstep. Let's have a conversation. You want to talk to me. Let's have a conversation. I may not become a Jehovah's Witness, but we can have a conversation. Yes. We can have a chat because we're just humans. Also, part of your culture is arranged marriages.

Yes. Okay. Yeah. This is a topic I have studied. Yeah. Can I just say, like, I watch Married at First Sight and I'm like, that's me. That's me. And love is blind.

I watch love is blind. And I'm like, that's me. Yes. I get it. Yes. You fall in love with a voice. I get it. Yes.

So could you describe it? Because for many people, it is foreign to them. Yeah. It's, it was surreal. I can't believe I did it. I can't believe I did that at 19. Like, it's insane. My father-in-law and my dad were friends.

Okay. And then they said, oh, I've got a son and I've got a daughter. and we kind of connected and managed to get each other's numbers. Okay. At 19? Yeah. Okay. And then I had a conversation with him and we ended up, we started with something.

It was meant to be like a quick 15, 20 minute conversation and it ended up being three hours. And I kind of walked away and I was like, oh, I think I might have found my person. Like everything aligned. Okay. And this is just over the phone. Yeah. So you had no idea what he looked like. Nope, no idea.

He had no idea what you looked like. No. But the voice? Yeah. And he had a strong northern accent, and I love a northern accent. And he said something, and he was, he was counting in tens. Don't ask me why he was counting in tens and what we were talking about. I can't even remember.

But he said, 20, 30, 40. And I was like, oh, my God, I like this. I just loved his accent. It was really cool. What were you determining in that conversation? Was it whether this would be a spouse or? Like, what were you determining? Well, my aim was not to build a family or any of that.

My aim was to get out the house. It was the only way I was going to get out and get freedom and be able to do whatever I wanted. It was by marrying someone. By marrying someone. So I was like, well, to be honest, here's my means to a way out, really. Like, I needed an exit and he was my exit. Wow, he was your exit plan.

Yeah. I just didn't know that he was going to be that good looking. Oh. Yeah. So I was like, okay, so we kind of spoke for a month, every day for a month. Okay. And we had lots of fun conversations. I could tell he was, and he loved, he loved movies, I love movies.

He was really into fitness. He played squash. And it was like hated watching football. And I was like, yes, when I will not be a football widow. No, thank you. So I was like, yeah, he didn't watch football. So it was great for me. So in a month we kind of established that we we had a connection

Okay There was no love, it was just very much Clearly there's a connection we we kind of We were very much It was a tick box exercise We were ticking, tick and ticking And then we decided to exchange photos And that was back in the day when it was like JPEGs

You remember when it was like used to download My kids are like, what? I'm like yeah you know like pieces of it used to download It was so much fun because it was like a blind date When his photo came in, yeah, it was like, downloading it and I got his foot first for some reason. I was like, come on, give me the face.

And it was like, and he was tall and he was just instant attraction, instant attraction. I was like, he's hot, like straight away. And I was, it was my turn to send a picture. And I said, I'm just warning you, I've got dark skin. and he said yeah okay he goes

I don't know if you realized I'd never asked you once about your appearance in the last month I didn't care about you I really like who you are and obviously it's important to be attracted to each other

but I did not ask about your skin color and I said and I'm not super super skinny and he said yeah I also did not ask about that like I don't know why you're saying that so I'm pre-warning him because that's kind of

colorism is rife in us in our culture if you are dark, you are considered less marketable, less likely to get a husband. That's something that I think plays out in so many cultures of color. Yeah. Where you see this color spectrum and the fairer you are, the more marketable, the smarter, the whatever you are. Yeah.

And then the darker you are, it's almost, you know, the opposite of that. And it plays out in every community. I'll never forget, I was in Jamaica with my boys, and we were in the Blue Mountains, actually, we were over here in the Blue Mountains. Oh, wow. And there was a rasta, old rastafarian, right? Dark, like beautiful, dark, like mahogany dark.

And he saw my youngest, so my youngest son, Liam, is a darker complexion. He's my complexion. Yeah. My oldest son, Kingston, is a lighter complexion, same as complexion as my wife. And there was this conversation that was happening around complexion. Okay. And I think this gentleman, he thought that my youngest had overheard this.

Okay. And he pulls my, you know, he pulls my young boy, Liam, and he says, you see these berries. He says, the darker, the berry, the sweet of the juice. Yes. Love that. He was like, that's how you get, that's the best Barry right there. And you could see, you know, my son kind of light up, you know, on that. But it is, this is, this is what happens in our community.

So I can imagine, though, but your parents, though, applying that pressure. Yeah. One of the first things my dad said to my father-in-law was, I'm just letting you know that she has got dark skin. And, you know, my father wants to, look, you know, never mind, we'll see what happens. And then we met, so his family came to my family home. And we met. We didn't actually meet everyone's sort of sat together. And I'm upstairs getting dressed.

But I'm sure you're listening. I know and you know because my husband told me off. Oh, okay. So I'm upstairs. Yeah, I'm upstairs getting dressed. And so there's this whole thing with an arranged marriage where you come down and you sit in front of everybody. Everybody looks at you. Wow.

It's really weird. Please break this down for me. I'm so fascinated by this. So who was in the room before you got there? His entire family, so brothers, brother's wife, nephews and nieces, and he's one of seven. So a few of them came, not all of them, just a few. And my father-in-law, my mother-in-law, and an elder, so an elderly relative of theirs. And from our side of the family is my mom, dad, siblings, and my brother-in-law at the time.

So at the time quite small, but all the necessary people are there. And before you get there, what are they doing? Are they, it's a discussion, but is it almost even a negotiation? Yes. So they're negotiating, you know, a dowry. They're negotiating, you know, date. They're talking about dates and how much money will be spent on the wedding outfits and gold. They talk gold because they have to give me gold and they have to negotiate.

how many grams of gold I get. So they negotiate all of that amongst themselves, but not till they see me. They've got to see me first. Okay. So, and I'm like shaking like a leaf. Because I like this guy, and he's perfect for me. But his family might not think I'm perfect for him.

So that could sway him or change his mind. It felt like a meat market. It was odd. And I'd seen my own cousins do. these kinds of things and I've always been really uncomfortable with them because I think it's just weird and uncomfortable and feels really degrading. My husband handed me a gold bracelet as a way of saying that he wants to proceed. So he gave me this gold bracelet, tried to put it on but couldn't fail. He was shaken as well and then somebody else put it on and they asked me to

leave. And so I got up and left. And then I got really brave and I said, can I just have two minutes to talk to him by myself, please? And my dad was like, no, this is not the dumb thing. We don't want to do this. And then Abd al piped up and he said, look, I'd like two minutes with her, please. Because I've literally laid, I haven't been able to really lay eyes on her because everybody's in the room. And they're expecting him to be, they're expecting him not to like, oh, just look at me because it's rude and disrespect. but also weird because they're all sat in the room looking at me as well.

Oh, interesting. So he's in front of you, but he's not supposed to look at you. He's supposed to kind of like, in a kind of like a coy, shy, cute kind of way. Okay. But he goes, but I actually really want to see her properly? Can I just have a look at, can I just talk to her? And so I had to have chaperones in the room with me. So my brother who was 10 at the time and my sister who was 15 or 16 at the time,

they were both sat in the room playing on some sort of, console and I went upstairs and he came into the room and he just said oh my god you're so beautiful that was our first ever interaction and then he said I think and that was it those were the two sentences he said and we were in the room for about three minutes and they just took him away and that was it we met each other that's the first time three minutes and they set the wedding date for 10 days after that and so we we got married in my mom and dad's house and we got married in my mom and So it's a very quick, an Islamic marriage is very quick. Goodness.

Okay. And we're not actually in the same room. We say our vows separate. Do you? Yeah. You're not even in the same room because you're not allowed to really be together until you're married. So you're married. And then do you agree?

Is that really your father's decision if he accepts? Is it yours or your father's? It's with all the conditions. It's up. It's the person who's getting married. It's their decision. So do you agree to the terms? Do you agree to the dowry?

Do you agree to the money? Do you agree to look after this man's daughter? Do you agree? And then I said, well, we're married now, so please, can I be in a room with the man? And so we had all, we, everybody went downstairs and we had five minutes? Just five minutes. So this is the first time that you were alone. Yeah.

Was when you were married. Yeah. We had five minutes. They didn't give us five minutes. Five minutes? Yeah. What are you? We can't do much in five minutes.

Some people can do a lot of five minutes. I sure they can. We need it for the five minutes. Oh my God. Oh my gosh. So you say you enjoy the five minutes? Yeah, we literally just, he just said, you look amazing. I had this mint green sari on.

It was so simple and so perfect. And he was wearing his attire. And it was really cool. And it was just literally five minutes. And then because we had the big wedding in Bangladesh. So we did that. And I didn't move in with him. We didn't move out or anything.

So he went away. I stayed at home. And then literally another 10 days later, we went off to Bangladesh together. Yeah. I'm sorry. So that day ends. Ends gone. He's gone.

And he leaves. Yeah, he's gone. Okay. You're still at home? I'm still at home. Yeah. But you're married now. But I'm married now.

And I did. I said, you know, I could come up to lead. so you could come down, you know, like, we can just like, we can actually like hang out. We can be together. And he's like, no, we couldn't. So then the main wedding, though, is in Bangladesh. Yeah, we wanted it to be in the UK, but it's more expensive in the UK. But my father and my dad, they decided that they could get a nice little trip to Bangladesh out of our wedding.

And it would be cheaper. We got to feed 3,000 people at the wedding. two and a half of them were probably two and a half thousand were probably old people from nearby villages people off the streets because that's the blessing the blessing is to feed people who don't have

anything okay so when you say 3,000 people was that the the invites to the wedding or 3,000 people 3,000 people at your wedding I don't know any of them I didn't know any of them

because what they do is they announce every mosque will announce that so-and-so's son, daughter are getting married. If you need a meal, come and eat. Okay. So people off the streets, poor folk, people you don't, they just come off the streets and they come and eat because that's the blessing. You give back.

And that was a blessing. I love that. I love that. I would love to do that with my own kids. Because, you know, for very little money, you can feed a lot of people in Bangladesh. Yes. That does sound beautiful. Yeah, so beautiful.

It's so beautiful. I mean, of all of those, probably about 500 were our family, four, 500 were probably our family, which is big enough as it is. But the best bit for me was when it was over and we were driving back to his village, which was two and a half hours away from hours, we were sat next to each other, bearing in mind this whole time, we've not been allowed to sit near each other, really talk to each other or anything. He was sat next to me and all he did was like put his knee against my knee the whole time. And I was like, stop being weird. And I was like, I was kind of doing this. Oh, he's being weird. But he kept putting his legs just get wider and wide and he kept putting his, and that's the only contact he could have with me without anyone noticing.

And then we stopped off. He went to a mosque, prayed. And I was like, oh, he's a good one. He's a good one. I just, I had a good feeling. And then we went back. And I remember they were kind of prepping for me to get into the house because there's some traditions that you have to kind of have something sweet

before you get into the house. And so they were prepping for those traditions. And we were sat in the car alone. First time ever alone, no time restriction. You sat there. And he goes, you are the most beautiful thing I've ever, ever seen. And I think I believed him in that moment. Did you?

Yeah. It's interesting because it was a range. It was kind of a range, but not really. I would say kind of semi-half and half. Yeah. I picked him because I knew he was right for me, not because my family, because what they wanted for me was not what they wanted for me. It was what they wanted for them.

Great point. So for me, that's the first time I think I advocated for myself in marrying the person I wanted to marry. And it's the best decision I ever made. I see it. I see it. How did you two make it work? Because early on, you're just, I mean, at that point, by the time you're in Bangladesh at the actual wedding, you've only seen each other twice. Yeah. In person.

Yeah. You know, so then how do you then make a marriage work with someone who you've just met? I think one of the things that makes an arranged marriage work is not to have this fixated idea or this kind of very rigid idea that everything is 50-50. Because people say 50-50 in a marriage a lot. They throw that around quite a lot. They do. I hate it because there's no such thing as 50-50.

There's points where somebody is putting 99% in and somebody's putting 1% in. and there's points where it is 50-50 and there's points if you stay rigid in the 50-50 then I don't think marriage is work because there's points where one person puts in more and one person can put in less but you have to be there for that because there's times when we got married

realised that me working is pointless because any money I make will go to childcare and I'll not see my kid so there's no point in me working so I chose to be a housewife I was like no I'm going to stay at home I'm going to raise my children and I'm going to have a beautiful home

and I'm going to be here because he'd only fresh come out of his degree so he was only just getting into his sort of line of work and he progressed in the 10 years that I was at home with the kids he progressed hugely in his career and we were so lucky that he was able to financially we were able to financially not need me to work we were able to buy a house we were able to go on holidays

You know, we were able to do all of those things with his wage. So, and that was only because I sacrificed my own need for a career to stay at home with the kids. But that didn't feel like a sacrifice. It wasn't a sacrifice because we were doing it for our family. Right. It was a team. Team effort. Team effort. Yeah.

Just the same as when I won Bake Off, he was definitely putting in 80%. And I was doing 20 because I was traveling the world. I was filming. I was on set. I was hardly over at home. I cooked meals. I put them in the freezer and I was out on the next plane. So he definitely, in those 10 years, put in way more than I did.

But we did it as a team effort. So I think to make a marriage like that work is, I think, any marriage, I think, just don't be fixated on the 50-50. Yeah. I think that's brilliant advice. Do you two also do these daily huddles where you come together and, in, you know, and discuss what's happened. What happens in this daily huddle? Because I find this very interesting.

Yes, we give ourselves scores. We score each other. You score each other. Every day. Every day. We sit down or it's in bed or we lay in bed and be like, right, what's your score today? And it's basically your score as a husband or a wife and your score as a parent. So we'll be like, today you are definitely a 10 out of 10.

It's like, oh, yay. So he knows that he's done something right. Yes. He knows the things that he's done right during the day. knows to repeat those things going forward. And so we score ourselves as husband and wife and then score ourselves as parents. And we openly discuss what we think we should get. So I'm like, you were definitely a four today.

And he's like, yeah, I was a four. But I think I was three actually. So we discussed the score. And that really helps us to kind of do better the next day. So we every day, four out of ten, five out of ten. So interesting. Yeah. What's the lowest score that you've,

ever received. Oh, zero. I've had zeros. You've had zeros. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, when you lose it a little bit, you just like, there's days when I'm, like, I've shouted at the kids and I'm like, oh, shouldn't have shouted, I shouldn't have had a go at them. We have those days. It's really okay to talk about those things as well. It's like, it's okay to have a zero, but it's about how you go from a zero to a one, to a two, to a three and just keep building that up. But yeah, yeah, I think it really, really helps us to be honest without judgment. Yes, yes, I love it.

I love it. So then you two, Abdul, is your husband's name. You both go on to have then three beautiful children. Yeah. All right. If we can talk about mental health and anxiety, because this is something that you have battled for quite a long time. Yeah.

When did anxiety first creep into your life, do you believe? When was that moment where I would say you actually began having panic attacks? I started to have panic attacks at seven or eight. Okay. But I would, yeah, that was quite young. And I used to have them and then make excuses to not be in a public place, whether that's home, school.

And then I would have them in bathrooms or toilets at school. Or I got into the habit of having them into pillows. So I would have panic attacks in pillows. So I got really good at hiding. them. So maybe six or seven. And for all of us who may not know what a panic attack is, what is it? It manifests itself in lots of different ways and I think it's different for lots of people. But for me, it's really shallow breathing.

You can feel your heart in your head. It races and you can feel your heartbeat. You get really hot, really sweaty. You can struggle to breathe and just tears. lot. I cry and just and I get, feel really faint and I feel really faint. So I have to be low down so I don't faint. And I've had panic attacks so bad that I have passed out and then woken up and be like, what's, what's just happened? So, um, that's how they manifest for me. Um, but, and they can, and I can feel them coming. You know when they're coming. You have little triggers

and sometimes you can just, I can feel it in my chest like it's deep. I can feel it as, you can, feel it there, like I can feel it there. So I know when it's coming. But as I've gotten older, I've kind of learned to manage them. And another thing that's huge with my mental health and anxiety is all I've wanted from a really young age is to cure it, to say, I need a cure. I need something to fix me. I need something to fix it. And what I've really come to accept is that there's no fix, there's no quick fix, there's no pill. There's no operating. There's no operating. There's nothing that's just going to fix you. You have to, the only way you really can fix it is to learn,

to give yourself the toolbox to manage it. So I have certain ways that I manage my anxiety. Now, I'm naturally quite a chaotic person, so I kind of hear there and everywhere. And I love routine. And so things like routine, if something goes out of, place and I'm like oh something's moved back by half an hour that would that would send me into overdrive and that could cause me to have a panic attack and letting go of some of that has really

helped me to be like it's all right does not matter the way I describe it is my monster so I wrote a kid's book many many years ago describing what anxiety feels like for me and it's called my monster and me and it's a monster and sometimes my monster is so big it's in my face and I can't do anything and I found ways of making my monster small and sometimes the monster's really big and I can't manage and sometimes it's kind of medium-sized and it kind of follows me around and taps me on the shoulder and sometimes it's teeny tiny and I can just put it in my pocket

and I can walk around with it but it doesn't go away and that's how I describe anxiety to children and so and that's been hugely helpful for me educating people and explaining and advocating for those people who don't have voices and saying look this is how you know they're because part of a huge part of mental health is

conversation and talking to people you trust and love who will take that information and not judge you for and and there be no judgment in being honest about how you feel so I kind of that's how I kind of describe my mental health is my monster and like it's very much in my pocket a lot of the time

I see it. There was one interview where I literally saw the, you say, we need to talk. Yeah. Oh, God. Yes. We need to talk more about this, right? This is the key. The key is a communication.

Yes. And what I love is that you have been really, I think, at the forefront of what I'll call the mental health wave that has begun. And we're nowhere near where we need to be in terms of talking about it. But I felt like you were really at the forefront of, beginning to really talk about it. And very, I think in a very noble gesture, you were able to disclose about your anxieties and your panic attacks.

One of the best things I learned about having anxiety, apart from the actual needing to talk, the bit where we actually talk, is vulnerability. Because one of the hardest things when you have a mental health illness is to be vulnerable. Because you don't want to be seen as weak. and letting your guard down and saying I'm going to be vulnerable with you

is a huge it's a huge you have to really trust somebody to give somebody that and all I can do is like the truth is I don't know who I'd be without anxiety and who I am is someone I'm really proud of

and it's made me a better wife it's definitely made me a better daughter it's made me a better mother it's going to make me an excellent grandma Oh yeah. Oh yeah. And great grandma. And great. Yeah. Paul, your show sponsor, Tinder, wants to know, can you remember the very first spark you felt between you and Jill? Absolutely. The first spark was the first time I saw her, which was from behind, to be honest with you.

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10 years, yeah. Okay. And then you've also been on television consistently. For 10 years? For 10 years. Yeah. All right. Extraordinary career.

Yeah. But it begins with who I'm going to call the MVP of your story, your husband. Yeah. He is the MVP. Yeah. So tell me how does he truly become your conduit, right? Your connection to television. And at this time, though, I understand you're not a baker.

I just bake at home, yeah. I mean, you're just at home, but not even doing it. You know, I think there's like amateur bakers at home. Yeah. But you're just for fun. Oh, for fun, self-taught. I was like croissants. I was making quosso.

and, you know, like, yeah, just pastry. And I was just making all these kind of really cool desserts and cake. And you name it, baking. But I was only baking because I was really anxious. And it really helped to quiet my mind. So baking really just helped me just to like, zone out. And it was my therapy. It was my kind of therapy.

So it was something to do with my hands, to quiet my brain. And so I used to just do that. And I just got really good at it. And my husband just kept saying, you know, you, and he just said, One day, one day, he just said, you could do that show. I said, no, I couldn't. Don't be ridiculous. Went away.

And I think it must have been three days before the deadline for the 2015 bake-off. He'd done the application form. And he said, I've done all the boring bits, like address, GP address, all of that. He said, but I can't do the bakey bits. Could you just humour me? Just do it. I said, I'll do it, but they're not going to ring me. It's not going to happen.

Whatever. Three days later, I get a phone call and do an interview. You have to do quite a round of tests, so you do a phone interview. Then you have to go there and do a screen test. And then you have to take some bakes. So there's a particular bakes that you have to take that are your own bakes. And then they give you a Paul and Mary bake and then you have to do those. So it's six months worth of back and forth, backing sports.

And then I get a phone call and they say, you've made it to the final 12. I was like, oh, okay. Completely like numb. I was like, okay, yeah. put the phone down, husband comes home. I didn't even text him, comes home. And I said, you know I'm aged to the final 12. He reacts the way a normal person would react,

which is like, yay, it's excited and happy. And then I said, I'm not doing it. He goes, you did all that to not do it. He said, you're doing it. And I said, I'm not, you're going to have to call them and tell him I died. He said, you call them and tell him you died. And I said, well, I can't, can I? Because I'd be dead.

And so I said, look, I'll do it. I'll do it. but I just I don't think I'm going to get very far and he goes look just don't get kicked out week one because that would be really embarrassing I'm like don't put pressure on me but there I was week on week week week on week and I have to ask going into it though

you're not sure what you're fearful of but you're still in fear your husband's propping you up giving you that motivation do you begin to think at all okay I'm going on I'm a second generation Bangladeshi

a woman of color, like I'm Muslim. Do you begin to think about any of those aspects of your identity? I didn't till I walked into the tent. Didn't even think about it until I actually walked into the tent. And then I walked in and I looked around

and I was like, oh, great. Because I know that feeling. I know what it's like to be the only me in a room full of people that all feel familiar to each other, but I felt like the alien. I walked and I was like, oh, and even production, you know, the team behind the scenes, there was nobody like me. So I was like, I felt very much like a, I stuck out like a saw thumb.

And I felt different. But there was Tamal was on there and he's from a part of Bangladesh. But again, I just didn't feel like, I just felt like, I just felt very alien. How do you describe that? how does feeling alien, how do you, how does that feel to feel alien? You know the voices in your head, you know, the noise in your head just gets really loud. That's what it feels like to me. So all the things that I always questioned about myself, they just get really loud.

And that just overtakes everything. Because then you're like, am I wearing the right clothes? Am I, am I, am I, am I, am I, are they looking at me? Do I look weird? Do I pronounce my T's better because I'm amongst loads of English people? Like, am I speaking okay? Like, am I eloquent enough? So it's things like that.

And through time, I realize that I've just made myself in the last 10 years. I feel like I've just made. I do. I often look back at myself and think I'm just a caricature of myself. Yeah. Do you? Yeah. For sure.

My whole life, I've constant. shrunk myself to make everybody else comfortable. So even when I was in that tent, I would speak, but I would try so hard not to sound like I was from Luton. I was like, no, no, no, no, sound as not bilingual as possible. Pronounce your tease, speak slowly, say every word properly.

I'm thinking that while trying to bake, while being judged. So it just gets louder. That's what Alien feels like. but you win. Yeah, I was not expecting that. So then how does that change your perception of you and your identity and your self-worth? Well, you know what? I want to say to you that I stepped away from there feeling like my self-worth was at its best and I felt amazing.

But what happened to me so quickly after winning Bake-off was that I fell into a career that I never expected to have and didn't want. That winning Bakeoff did not prepare me for the suspect that it is, that it is to be in the public eye. So can you describe winning and then what happens in those few weeks after winning? Because I would imagine winning your life does, I mean, clearly your life changed. Yeah. And I'd already had production living in my house.

That's right. Okay, that's right. So you were getting death threat. And I think this is important, though, to unpack is that so you're on the show and then you receive a death threat. Yeah. So what is that like? Because many people have never, unfortunately, I have been on the receiving end of a death threat. It can really throw you off, especially if it involves your, you should not be normal.

It should not be normal at all. when you receive it, when were you, how did it impact you? It's soul destroying because somebody hates you enough to want you dead. And then you ask yourself, why? Am I that bad? Why do you want me dead? Like, I couldn't understand it. I was like, I lost my faith in humanity completely.

I was like, no, I don't know. It messes with your head. And then your family as well. You have to be thinking immediately about I have children. Protect. Yes. You go into lioness mode and you're like, I'm just going to protect my kids. But we had panic buttons installed in the house because, yeah.

And my daughter grew up up until now thinking that everyone had panic buttons in their house. Direct to the police because doesn't everyone have panic buttons in their house? Look at that. Yeah. And that was a level of security. Your house in case there was an intruder. Yeah. that anyone, your children can hit that button, the police would be called.

They would be, they'd be in the house within a minute because we've had people come to the door. We've had people try and look over into the house and get pictures and things like that. And so we've had to be really, really careful with the kids. And to the point where we live in a house that's actually overlooked by seven neighbors because we feel protected because all our neighbors know us. Yes. So it's really cool because actually when we're out, they see us. And so if there's any problems, we've taught our kids to go out.

in the garden and shout because there'll be a neighbor that'll hear you. Look at that. So yeah. And that's not normal. Like that's not normal. So what about the good? The good. Oh my goodness.

After all these years of doing it, it's the people I meet. Whenever I meet someone. Like the day after I won, I met a lady who had postnatal depression. And she's a Muslim woman who wears a hijab and she had postnatal depression, hadn't left the house for nine months. And she said, you are the reason why I got my baby into that car. drove my car for the first time in nine months and came to Tesco just to get some milk. Because if you can do that, then I can go to Tesco.

And for me, I felt like I met her and there was a reason why God made our paths meet. And ever since that moment and being on television and writing books and being in the public eye, one of the best things for me has been the fact that I've been able to represent people like me who don't see any worth in themselves, but went out there, went and walked to the other side of fear and looked back and said fear is not a big deal, I can handle fear and can do something that is so incredibly scary, but stand there and say, I'm going to take up this space because it's important for me to take up this space because it's, I didn't realize how important it was to be the voice for the voiceless. And that's a huge responsibility for me. But it's one

that I don't carry lightly. You know, I carry it with pride. It's heavy, but I carry it because I know it's my responsibility. Yes. Yeah. You know, that was reminiscent, that sentiment, that you just gave that was reminiscent of, I think, that speech that you gave when you won,

which I understand wasn't written. No. That just came from the heart. Yeah. And you really got emotional during that speech. And it was very empowering. And I think it was very empowering, I think, for the voiceless. and for those who have always felt like they, you know,

that in essence, we need to be our own self-advocate. Like anyone who watches that speech at the end, and it wasn't rehearsed, everyone said, did you write that? I said, absolutely, no, I did not write that. I didn't think I was going to win. Anybody who watches that knows that baking show was more than a baking show to me. It did something to me.

it allowed me to step into the power that I didn't know I had. Is that the sentiment with the elbows out? Yes. That is my kid's affirmation. Every time my kids have a moment and they need to hear it, I'm like elbows out because you live in a world where you are different. You are not like everybody else. You are going to fight 10 times harder for 10 times less.

I know I've worked 10 times harder than the people in my industry for 10 times less. And still, and still I fight. I continue. Elbows out. I tell them elbows out, do it. Like when you physically do it and you make space for yourself, it feels really empowering. But you, in here, you make space for yourself so you can make space for others. And in those moments where I feel really down and I'm really struggling, especially where work is concerned. Like I have to, I have to tell myself elbows that, remember why you did this. Remember why you continued despite the death threats, despite the abuse, despite the hate, despite the online comments, despite all of that, you continued to stand there with your elbows out and you made space for

you, but there was a bigger picture. It was for everyone else. It was for everyone. Yeah. But you just mentioned when you look back, you became a caricature of yourself. So we need to understand how this happens. So you win. Yeah. Incredible speech. I would imagine a lot begins to change. So I would imagine the industry begins to call. So agents probably reach out to you. Everyone wants to represent you. Different production companies probably come offering different deals.

So how do you begin to navigate the business of the industry? What's you win? Well, the first thing that happened was I got myself an agent because they suggest that. They suggest when you win Bake Off, they say, you get to the end last sort of episodes, last three, they suggest, they give you a list of agents and say, look, we suggest that you get yourself an agent because work could come your way. Work may not come your way, but you need to be prepared for somebody to be able to negotiate

those deals with you. And so I did that thinking I will never ever get any work. I was like, okay, look, I'll just do it, but I can sign up and if I get no work and that's fine. So I get an agent. And there's a lot of, I think once you are in the industry, you've got to be really, like there's this moment where you realize how filtered you have to become and there's certain things you can say there's certain things you can't say and I always get asked people say are you are you trained are you media trained and I'm like no absolutely not media trained but I have learned through time how to sort of kind of be like a politician where you kind of don't have to answer

fully but you do answer the question but there's a lot of that you kind of And what's really difficult about going from being not in the public eye to being in the public eye is that now you're managed by somebody. So what you wear, how you speak, what you do, what you post, what you don't post, all of that. Somebody is always overlooking that. So there's, you lose control. And so that's where you do, no matter how much you'd try to retain your identity, which is something that I've worked really hard to do, there is always going to be an element of filter.

There's going to be a gate. There's going to be an invisible filter that your management has to do. They have to. And there's points where I look back and I think, was I truly myself in that? When was the first moment when you looked back throughout your career

where you looked in the mirror and thought, you know what, I'm not me anymore? When I was doing one of my cookery shows, I was doing one of my cookery shows and I love a good knit jumper like I love a good knit and I was filming around the country

and I was wearing these knitted jumpers and the feedback we got was she needs to not wear knitted jumpers it makes her look bigger than she already is and so you will never see me wear knitted jumpers after that from that point never wore a knitted jumper I don't know if that's as manufactured as you get

because, well, if they don't want me to wear a knitted jumper because it makes me look bigger, then, well, I've got to do the show and I've got to listen to them. Even though I love knitted jumpers. Although I love a knit jumper. So that for me, but what I should have done was continue to wear the knitted jumpers.

But why didn't you? Because I was sold the dream. It's like, career, you've got to keep your career going. Like, you've got to keep your career going. Like you've got to keep your career going. I was always made to feel like my trophy was just going to get taken away from me. Because as somebody, because I felt like I had to always be grateful.

I had to be consistently grateful for the opportunity that I was given. A Muslim that was relatable. A Muslim, like the people's Muslim. The people's person of colour. the digestible version of myself. So I had to just constantly be grateful. And gratitude should not sit on your face like a muzzle. And that's what it felt like, because I felt muzzled.

There's right and there's wrong. And when I see wrong, I say that's wrong. That shouldn't happen. And what I found with the industry is that when you complain, you're considered a nuisance. The problem with this industry is that they very much, they protect men they protect the men in our industry

and they they make excuses for men and I think when as a woman you make a complaint or you say something when it's met with yeah but you know it's just the way that person is

then your complaint goes nowhere it just sits there on a desk and nothing happens and so little by little I could feel, I've always felt a little bit uncomfortable. In every job that I've done, I felt discomfort. But with every job, I felt like I'm being moulded just a little bit more, just a little bit more just to make it perfect for everyone.

Yes. I tried to write a book about parenthood, what it's like to be a parent from an ethnic minority background and to raise children who straddled two worlds. And I was told flat out that we are. are not publishing books like this. And we're not publishing books like this because books like this won't sell. And people won't be interested.

And that really hit hard. Because essentially you're telling me that my voice doesn't matter. You're telling me that nobody wants to hear our stories because they don't sell. And then literally months later, that same publishing house published a book by a social media influencer about motherhood. And that hit hard. And that's when I knew there was something really wrong with the industry.

Because up to this point, I didn't think that I was a tick box exercise, but then I looked back and I think, ah, I was just, they just needed to look diverse. They needed to look like they just, they had the Muslim tick. They got person of cut tick.

Interesting. So you look back at your career and you begin to think. It was a lie. It was a lie. I didn't want to look at my career like that, but I look back and I think, oh my goodness. It was all a tick box exercise till they just didn't need me anymore, till they just said, actually, unless you're the version of, unless you're the version that we want, you don't get to be the version that's authentic.

And when you decide that you want to be authentic, there's no room for you. And that's when I was able to step into my true self. but how does it feel to look back at your career and feel as if it was a tick in a box? It's kind of sad. It's sad, but I used to be a glass half empty type of person before, but I'm very much a glass full now

because I don't believe that one door closes and another one doesn't open. And if it's not open, I'm going to kick it open. And I'm going to wedge it open and keep it wedged open. It takes real strength to say, it's okay, I don't need the money. I would rather be authentic and have less money than be inauthentic and not recognize myself and have money in the bank.

Yes. That doesn't matter to me. But it seems like there were certain moments where the line was crossed Yeah. Did you ever make a complaint? Did you ever file a complaint to anyone? I, yes. Yes, I did.

You did? Yeah, twice. A few times probably. Yeah, a few times. I filed a complaint with a very big breakfast show that I did. And they were mocking a recipe out of my book. book, which I can almost guarantee if a Jamie Oliver or James Martin was on their promoting their book, they would not sit at the end of the show and mock a recipe out of

their book. So I filed a complaint and I said, that's not acceptable. It was a recipe called chart in a bag. And chart is an Indian recipe, South Asian recipe. But they took that word and changed it and I didn't understand it. So I asked my English, English sister-in-law, why are they laughing at? I don't understand it. And she said, oh, they're mocking it because it's shat in a bag. Interesting. And I found that really distasteful and really hateful. And I said they need to apologize for that because that was really deeply disrespectful. And nothing. Nothing. Nothing. They refused to apologize. Did you feel like you were then considered a troublemaker?

Yes, for sure. Yeah, for sure. And I would imagine the public's perception and their comments are also impacting you. Because, you know, we have so many celebrities on. We need to talk. What I find not fascinating, but I think the public finds fascinating is that they virtually read every comment. Yeah. So were you reading most of your comments?

I used to read all of my comments. At that time. At that time. So you were reading all of them. Yeah. And when you're reading them, what are you reading? It's dangerous reading comments because you could get a thousand good comments, but that one really bad one is the only one you hear.

And that's really bad. So I stopped reading comments a really, really long time ago. What I find really interesting are these examples of how you felt like you were just nudged a little bit, like the jumper, even making the complaint and then not having it being received. Can you think of other examples where you felt like this caricature was being created, you were being forced to just be compliant? There was a point where I was quite badly bullied by somebody that I was working with, that I filed a complaint, nothing happened,

and to the point where I was, it was so bad. And it's really embarrassing to even admit it. but the panic attacks came back. I started to have nightmares. And as a kid when I had panic attacks, I wet the bed till I was about 11. And at 30-something years old, for the first time, I had such a bad panic attack.

I lay in bed and I wet the bed. And I said to my husband, this can't go on. This is at 30-something years old. I was so badly bullied and nobody did anything. They told me, don't worry, This is this is just the way they are. It's okay.

So you were not only bullied, but you made the complaint. Yeah. And you were told. It's just the way they are. The way it is. Yeah. It's just the way it is. What's your husband saying at this point?

Because he's your best friend. He's very logical, you know, very rational in his thought process. What was he thinking? He said, you know we don't need to do this. He said, you know you don't need to do this. He always said, he's always said it to me. me. He said, we don't need you to work. I got you. But then it's that I'm doing it because I'm creating space. But what happened with that, the reason why it was so contradictory for me was because

I was taking up this space and telling people that they can do what I do. They can have space. I'm creating space for them. But nobody knows what's happening in order for me to be in the, that space. And because I couldn't say that out loud, because I couldn't say it, I couldn't bring it to my lips, it felt disingenuous. And my husband just said, so speak your truth. Say it. What's going to happen? Speak the truth. And best advice he's ever given me. What was the moment where you first spoke your truth? Do you know what? It's probably only been very...

You know what? Actually, over a couple of... Last year or the year before. So when I published my book, Ruzza, that was the first book I published, that was attached to my faith. And Ramadan is a huge thing in this country.

3.9 million Muslims are celebrating it, but we live in such a diverse country that no doubt somebody has a Muslim name, or a Muslim friend, and it felt like such a great book to do. And after four years of really fighting with the publisher to publish this book, I finally publish it. And the day the book was published, a brand pulled out. The day. A brand that was supporting you.

A brand that I was meant to be working with. Oh, interesting. Pulled. Interesting. Yeah. What was the reason that they gave? Just timing was bad. even though we'd gone through negotiations

and we were like going to work with this brand really excited pulled out didn't work out and I said why do you think that is what's different today to yesterday or the day before what's happened and then slowly

lots of people were pulling out different brands yeah things were coming to an end and that's when you feel gaslit because they're like it's just the industry don't worry about it this is just the way it is is, no, it's not. What's changed? Come on. What's changed?

Right. And that for me, just speaking out about that was a big deal. But I think my biggest changes have happened over the last, I'm going to say, 10 months. Yes. Biggest changes. That's how it feels, at least from social. Yeah. From my perspective on social, because I've followed you for quite some time,

it it it feel reflecting back looking back now it does look like there was this characterature yeah and it was the publishing of your current book and it's rusa yeah publishing of that that that book and there was a video that you did yeah around losing a thousand followers instant instantly yeah and i saw a different nadiah in that video yeah that's how it felt to me. Yeah. Instantly. That's, that's telling.

And everyone around me was saying, no, it's fine. It's not in relation to your book. Yes, it is. What's changed? How is it that I publish a book? When I publish, every other book I've ever published has increased my following.

But I published the one book, the one book that is attached to my faith and the one book that is like truly, truly, like, came from my heart and instantly a thousand followers gone. And that to me was telling. But everyone around me was like, oh, no, no, no, it's fine, it's fine. And I just kind of decided that point. I'm not going to be ghastly into thinking that everything's in my head because it's not in my head.

It's not. I've walked on sets and people have said, I'm not working if she's working. I will not work with her. And I've been told, it's all right. It's just the way he is. It's just the way they are. But I have to carry on, get on, smile, do the show. And I did it willingly.

But in doing so willingly, I chipped away at my own self to the point where I didn't even know who I was anymore. At the beginning of this year, for me, I decided that everything has to change. I'm going to change who I'm around. I'm going to change who I work with. and I will only work with people who want to hear my voice

and who advocate for me as much as I advocate for me as much as I advocate for myself and who believe in change and who believe in diversity and indifference and and and I only want to work with people who want to see the world colourful because up until that point I was working in a very grey world

and I just don't want to live in that world anymore. And I would imagine part of your self-evaluation was how you were, what you were teaching your children. Yes. Based on your actions. I suppose what I want to tell people

is that you can have it all. You can do all of this. You can take up the space that I take up. But you have to speak up. And you have to speak your truth. Because only then will you genuinely sit in your, sit within yourself happy and

comfortable with who you are because I look back and I think that's not who I was. That's not who I want to be. Do you believe that speaking your truth is one of the reasons why your shows at BBC were not recommissioned? I think it's interesting because for a long time, I work with the BBC for a really long time and there's points where we've kind of looked at working with other channels. And other broadcasters, the feedback they gave us was, you're to BBC. And so I kind of resigned it in my head.

I kind of like accepted in my head that I was very BBC. Which means what? I don't know what it means. It means I suppose that they've got me exactly where they want me. I'm utterly unbiased. and just they've got me where they want me. You're neutral. Neutral.

And I am not neutral. I have opinions. And I have things to say. They'll keep you till you're of no use to them. And I think that's what happened. I think essentially I got lots of reasons why they couldn't commission the show. I had kind of rough reasons as to why they said that they couldn't commission the show. but no definitive this is why we are not commissioning your show

considering my show got great ratings I got the ratings every year like really good ratings so there's not I can't see why there's a reason why my show wasn't be commissioned but it was interesting because my husband and I always spoke about it and he just said there's going to be a point where like they're just going to they're not going to need you anymore and the second you don't fit the box

like they have a neat little box when you don't fit that box anymore you just there'll be no space for you and I suppose I don't fit that space anymore and to be fair I'm not comfortable in boxes anyway I prefer glass ceilings to smash through

thank you very much but yeah I suppose there's no space for me and I'm kind of all right with that and that made me realize and it was really interesting because there was a lot of back and forth between how we talk about the fact that my show is no longer on the BBC. And in the end, I decided just to do a social media post and say that BBC have decided to no longer commission my show.

And I did that off my own back. I chose to put that post out because that's the truth. They chose not to commission my show. but when we were going back and forth as to how to announce that I got an email back saying that this is a proposed statement and I think Nadia should say that I'm no longer I'm no longer where I'm I no longer want to do my show on the BBC because I I'm focusing on different projects and I said that's not the truth though

that's not the truth and I said I do not okay that statement because that's not the truth and I'm not putting that out I'm not going to put that out and

that's when I decided that I no longer I want it to completely do everything by myself so I just decided that I clean slate I no longer have an agent

You let the team go? Yep, everyone's gone. Look at that. Because I want it to start from scratch as if I had one wake-off 10 years ago when I had nobody but my husband and myself. And my instinct and my gut and what it tells me. It's been the most freeing thing to know that every decision I make is my own and no. nobody gets to filter me. Yeah.

Yes. So when you look at the industry, though, because you think about, you've been in this industry, it's space for 10 years, then countless television shows, documentaries, said the books,

18 books, countless speaking opportunities. I mean, your name and face, your brand is known all around the world. Yeah. Do you feel as if that box where you felt like

there wasn't enough room at BBC, do you feel like that's the, the case for you and the industry? Was that just you in that particular network? I, do you know what? I think I'm going to be the truest, most honest version of myself, entirely unfiltered, with no management, nobody to tell me what I can do, can't do, can say, can't say.

And only then will I know what space the industry has for me. But I'm not holding out for the industry. I'm not holding out for the industry to accept me because that's what I've done my whole life. I'll figure it out and I will find a space where I'm welcome. And that might not be in this industry and I'm all right with that.

We've talked about quite a bit here. Yeah. Right. Is there anything that we have not yet discussed that you feel is important for us to talk about? I think I've given you everything but my blood type. What is your blood type, by the day? Give it to me.

It's such a good chat. It's been amazing. It is. Well, you know, I have another question. Okay, go on. These are quick ones. Okay, go on. Hjab.

Color. Yeah. I notice you have a nice little orange. Yeah. But it looks very good with the whole outfit. But is this also the mood as well? Yeah. So if I wear a black hijab,

know that I'm not in a good place. I do not wear black hijabs. I don't wear them. I never have. I don't like them. But all through Bake Off, I wore black because I'm stressed. But yeah, my hijab determines my mood. And I always, I love color and I love wearing color.

And if I'm in a colorful scarf, I'm probably feeling quite colorful. So yeah, I just, yeah, you made me with the, what was it? Yellow. Yeah, yellow. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I like the whole vibe. vibe is good. Thank you.

The whole vibe is good. Okay. So then I'll ask the question that everyone gets. Mm-hmm. And the question is this. If you think back to all of the conversations that you've had throughout your life, which one was the most memorable? Who was it with?

And what did you learn? Um, oh, God, I'm a big talker, so I have lots of conversations. Probably my grandma. My grandma's 92 and she's now legally blind. Sharp as a... She's really sharp. So she...

She's amazing. She's amazing. My grandma's amazing. So I was at my mom and dad's house and my mom was having a go at me and she was like, when are you going to get back to the kids? She doesn't understand how I can be a mother

and have a career at the same time. And she walked out and my grandma said, do you like what you do? And I said, yeah, I do. And she goes, don't listen to your mom. And that for me, it was a very short conversation, but it was the first time I'd seen my very quiet, compliant grandma, who literally did everything by the book. She was the first time she told me to break a rule. Like, she would normally say, you should listen to your mom, listen to what your mom has to say. But at 92, I saw the rebel in her. And I was like, really when I look back

at all the women in my life, I've never seen my grandma rebel. And it was the first time I've seen her do something or say something contradictory. And I imagine, I kind of sat back and thought to myself, how many times are she wanting to break the rules and not being able to? And I suppose now I look back and I think I'm breaking all those rules for her. And that's what I tell my daughter. It's like, You're going to get stuff wrong. Things are going to go pear-shaped. It's okay. Get it wrong.

It's fine. Rebell. Fight. It's okay. And on that note, what do you believe your grandfather who came here from Bangladesh and faced all of that adversity early on for a granddaughter who he had not yet met? What do you think he would, what do you believe he would think of, not, today?

Oh, gosh. If he was alive to see this, I think he, yeah, I think he'd be really, really proud. And I'd like to think, I hope it was worth it. Like, I think he'd think that it was worth it. You know, I don't know if you truly understand or fathom how inspirational you are. Probably not. No, I don't know. I don't think I do.

I don't think you do. You know, there's a one of my partners who I work with, he's Muslim, and he was telling me about how inspirational you are to him. Oh, wow. And what I found so interesting in that interaction is, at the same time, my wife was telling me how inspirational you are to her. Yeah. And then at the same time, I was finishing up my research

I was thinking how inspirational you are to me. You know, and I think it's important for you to spend a moment in that reflection of just allowing me, us to say thank you. Oh, that's, yeah, yeah. Oh, thank you. Thank you. You know, sit sit in that because there's thank you. You know, thank you for what you've done. what you've been through, who you are, where you're going.

You know, there's so many of us, they just want to say thank you. You know, so Nadia, thank you. Oh, you're welcome. Thank you, thank you. I just find it to be so important for there's so many people that I meet that are changing the trajectory of the world. You're in, you are one of those people. Yeah.

And you probably don't feel like it. No. But it's important just to spend a moment in the appreciation of the love. Yeah, I think, honestly, I think I don't, like you said, I can't fathom a massive responsibility, but one that I believe that, I believe God gave me it for a reason. I believe that it goes as far back as to when my granddad came here. Yes. This was it. Yeah.

This was it. You were your grandfather's greatest dream realized. Yeah. Yeah. I guess I was his legacy. Yes. Yeah. Look at that.

Yeah. Mad, isn't it? Insane. It's insane. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. Wow.

Wow. Wow. Wow. That was the first conversation I think we had to take a break and we stood up and stretched our feet a little bit and then sat right back down and got into it again. So I've been in the television industry for now over 10 years in the UK and in the U.S. and I've seen some terrible things. But I have not had the same lived experience that Nadia has had in her 10 years in the television industry.

The multiple complaints that she talked about, the bullying, that's something that I've never, personally, I've never experienced. So I can't imagine how hard that is to step into a workplace, be told to perform. it's just the way it is and have to face that. You know, you look at in these abusive relationships, what you often see is you see someone who targets someone else who has what, low self-worth. Why? Because you have low self-worth.

It means you have no boundaries. And we often apply that only to what, romantic relationships. But it happens in the professional industry. all the time. People and a lot of talent who have low self-worth, the reason why that they land on television or they land, they get the music deal, is because they have no boundaries. And they're easy to be, you could say, managed or manipulated. And this is exactly what happened to Nadia. Throughout her entire life, she has been the person who stayed in the box. She was the people pleaser. She was, as she said to her, about her family, she was an asset to everyone but herself.

And at this point in her career, she's 40 years old, she's been on television for 10 years, she now, for the first time, is an asset to herself in every aspect of her life. And this is what her grandfather always wanted. So you could see where we've, we've, we've, we've, we've, we've, we've, we've, we've, we've, we've, we've, we've, we've, we've, we've, we've, we've, we've, and we've seen, Ruffin's story, is one of authenticity and the power of authenticity. And now, I'm going to go to her house. and she's going to make that food and I'm going to eat every last bit of that food. I mean, I don't even need to do the podcast anymore. I'm done.