We Need To Talk with Paul C. Brunson - Gypsy-Rose Blanchard: “No One Has Really Listened To Me… Until Now”

Episode Date: June 9, 2026

Gypsy-Rose Blanchard became one of the most recognisable women in modern true crime after the murder of her mother, Dee Dee Blanchard, and the alleged medical abuse that shocked the world. In this rare conversation, Gypsy reflects on the childhood she says was built on lies, the complex relationship with her mother, and the questions she believes were never asked. She opens up about wanting to be loved, the relationships that shaped her life, and the catastrophic dynamic with Nick Godejohn, who is now serving life in prison. Gypsy revisits the night Dee Dee was killed, and the thinking behind what happened. She also reflects on guilt, accountability and whether her prison sentence was fair for the crime that was committed. Now a mother herself, Gypsy reflects on the kind of parent she wants to become, the cycles she is determined to break, and how she begins to move forward when the world still knows you by your darkest chapter. Gypsy-Rose Blanchard, We Need To Talk This conversation includes discussion of child abuse, medical abuse, sexual assault and murder. Please take care while watching. We’ve included links to support resources below: NSPCC: https://linkly.link/2kE84 Samaritans: https://linkly.link/2kE85  MIND:  https://linkly.link/2dx8b  The Survivor’s Trust: https://linkly.link/2kE8q   RAINN: https://linkly.link/2kE8h Follow us here: https://www.instagram.com/needtotalk   https://www.tiktok.com/@weneedtotalkpod   Sign up to our newsletter https://linkly.link/2eXHX Follow Gypsy-Rose here: https://www.instagram.com/gypsyrose.insta  https://www.tiktok.com/@gypsyrose_blanchard727 (00:00) Intro (02:14) The Notoriety of Gypsy-Rose (03:10) Early Life (07:28) Gypsy's Mother's Mental Health Issues (12:04) Alleged Sexual Assault in Childhood (16:35) Why Gypsy-Rose Left the Family Home (18:11) The Medical Procedures Gypsy-Rose Underwent (33:36) Did Gypsy Feel Loved by Anyone as a Child? (39:36) Dating as a Teenager (50:38) How Gypsy Met Nick (01:03:50) Gypsy Reflects On The Night Her Mother Died (01:24:57) The Aftermath of the Murder and Court Proceedings (01:32:02) Time in Prison (01:35:24) How Gypsy Met Her First Husband in Prison (01:54:39) How Gypsy Adjusted to Life After Prison (02:05:30) The Birth of Gypsy's Daughter With Ken (02:15:51) Most Memorable Conversation (02:17:35) Paul's Takeaways Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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I should have spent the rest of my life in prison. I felt like my mom was my best friend. She was my protector. So you have a child that just wants her mom to love her. You're the reason I was born to be a mom. What was your mother claiming? I had supposedly a seizure disorder, leukemia, paralyzed since birth. But I knew that I could work.

Was there ever a moment where a doctor told her no? Yes, this brings us to quite a pivotal moment. But you then start dating. There was Nick, Ryan, and Ken. Something in me snapped. Nick was the gasoline, I was the fire. First thing he said when he comes to the door is this is dead. I wanted to go and help her.

You were trying to hold on. Having people run up to you and want to take a selfie with you. None of that I was prepared for. Y'all made me. me this. I didn't. But it wasn't until I had my daughter thinking to myself, how can a parent ever hurt to their child? Was there anything that you've seen or heard about your life? You want to clarify. And all the interviews that I have done, I have never had anyone really listened to me. Until now. In this episode, Gypsy Rose Blanchard shares her own account of her life and experiences,

including the murder of her mother, childhood abuse, and allegations of sexual assault. We must note to be legally accurate that these allegations of sexual assault have been reported previously, have been denied or disputed, and have not resulted in criminal prosecutions. We report, but do not adopt them. These topics may be difficult to hear, so please watch with care. This is a deeply powerful conversation, and I hope that you take something meaningful away from it. If you do, please like and subscribe to our channel, as it really helps us to keep bringing you more and more conversations just like this one. One of the most recognizable, I think, figures in the United States.

Gypsy Rose is one of, I think, the most recognizable names. However, I believe that there is a lack of... understanding about who you actually are. Are, yeah. And what actually happened. Yeah. And that's the reason why I'm so intrigued. And so honored that you're here to give us your time.

Well, I'm happy. All right. I'm happy to get into it. All right. Let's do it. Let's do it. All right. Let's do it.

Okay. So could we then begin with your parents? Mm-hmm. All right. So, D.D. and Rod. Mm-hmm. When did your parents? parents meet and where did they meet? So my parents met in a town, I mean, very small in Louisiana.

Originally, they became friends and then not too long after, you know, hanging out. My mom got pregnant. And my father felt like the right thing to do would be to marry my mom. Even though, you know, I mean, honestly, he was just a kid. Yeah. You know, he was, um, he'd draw. Um, he'd out of high school and around that same time he got another woman pregnant so I have a half-sister and he realized oh my gosh like now I have two daughters to take care of and pay child support on and things like this um and on my dad's 18th birthday he realized that he was not in love that he married my mom for good intent um but it he didn't love her. He wasn't in love with her like that. And so he ended the relationship. It ended in

divorce. And my mom got custody. And I lived with my mom. How do you think that impacted her? You know, in hindsight, I realized that, you know, that must have been so hard on her. because there's not only that element of abandonment, but the trauma that my mom went through as a child herself, I think the Hitch just kept coming. And she loved him very, very much. So, you know, looking back on it, that must have been heartbreaking.

And I am a reflection of my dad. Like, I look just like my dad. So I can imagine that that must have been really hard for her. Yes. Yes, absolutely. What was life like for you and your mother in particular in this first five years? I mean, I would say that, you know, I felt like my mom was my best friend. I felt like she was my protector.

The childhood seemed fairly normal because the first five years of my life, my grandmother, was still alive. And I honestly feel like when my grandmother passed away, my mom lost a part of herself that at least was keeping her together. Because at the age of five, I was still able to be around my cousins. I have a very large family. Lots of cousins. I have two aunts, uncles,

And then when my grandmother passed away, my grandfather got me remarried. My mother did not approve of the new relationship and everybody took sides. Okay. And then from there, my mom and I started moving around. Interesting. And was that because you can no longer live in the house? Correct. From what I understand, my uncle addressed, all the things.

that my mom was doing at that point. He was like, why isn't Gypsy in school? You need to put her in school. I really just don't think she's as sick as what you claim. She's perfectly fine. She plays with my kids. And he just put her on blast. I see it.

So what was your mother doing or claiming at that time? Well, at the age of, you know, five, I was still seeing many doctors. The list of ailments was not as long as it was, obviously, later on in life. But I had supposedly a seizure disorder. Supposedly, I had leukemia, hearing impaired, vision impaired, muscle weakness. So all of these things, I was still in GI problems, gut problems. So all of this was happening even at the age of five. What about, do you remember or what you've heard, what did the other family members, especially who were living with you?

What did they think? The thing about my mother's side of the family is they don't really recognize mental health problems. You know, obviously in the 90s, 80s, 90s, mental health problems was shrugged off and considered, you're weird. you're, you know, they put you in a box and in a category that you're just crazy. Yes. Instead of it being addressed with therapy. And so that's the kind of box they just put my mom into. Even, you know, her own family put her in that box of like, oh, she's just weird.

She's just crazy. And so it's like I think that they had a hint that, yeah, this is not normal. But there's a lot of things that was going on in that family that was not normal. Okay. Okay. Now, you mentioned there, and this is something that, this is a term that I didn't know until doing the research for you. So from what I understand is, yes, your mom wasn't weird or crazy. She suffered from a disorder. So this is this FDIA or Munchausen, FDIA, fabricated or induced illness or FII. and it's a severe form of child abuse or mental illness where a caregiver fakes or causes symptoms

or illness in a child to gain attention or sympathy. Right. And it previously was known as Munchausen syndrome by proxy. Correct. So from what I understand, this is what your mother suffered from. And I've seen reports that have said that she has one of the most. historically, one of the most notorious sufferers of this disease. Correct.

And she took this out on you. Correct. Okay. So the family doesn't know what's happening. They just say that she's weird. Correct. But as you mentioned, there's other things happening in the house. Can you talk about what was happening in the house so we understand the full environment?

I mean, as far as, you know, my mother goes, she was supposed to be on medication. She was supposed to be on medication because she was diagnosed with bipolar disorder. And I remember, like, there was a therapist that would come to the house of counselor. And then when we moved from Louisiana to Missouri, she stopped seeing the therapist. and she stopped being on medication. I remember, you know, growing up with a mom that said, you know, do you hear that? I hear voices telling me that there are seven voices and six of them doesn't like me. Do I see that?

Like seeing things that aren't there. And I didn't see these things. So, you know, it would kind of break my mom's heart when I would be like, no, I don't. see anything um so it's definitely a lot of that manipulation um growing up my mom was like your dad wants nothing to do with you he has his family now he's remarried he's got new kids they're his favorite um he doesn't love you and he doesn't love me and but i love you i'm the one that's here day in and day out appreciate me you know so it's it's a lot of that and growing up i didn't have a a high self-esteem.

Not because my mom didn't tell me I was pretty, but more so because I wasn't allowed to form my own identity and feel confident in myself, discovering who I am. I see it. I see it. And even on that point, too, where you mentioned your mother, in essence, was isolating you, right, from your father. I've noticed that this is a standard maneuver of abusers, is the social isolation of the person that they're targeting.

And it's interesting to see a mother do that to a child. So now, if you're willing to talk about it, is that when you're talking about, there's lots of stuff happening in the house. from what I understand is your grandfather was assaulting people can you talk about that

so we can understand at what six or five I was nine you were nine I was nine my earliest memory of something just not being appropriate would be you know around the age of five-ish

and when after my grandmother passed away, it was me, my mom, and my grandfather all living in the house until he, you know, moved. Okay. And so upstairs, there's a bathroom on the second floor, and it had a tub. And I remember my mom taking a bath and my grandfather, like, washing her and then she gets out of the tub and then proceeds to put me in the tub with him and you know i have i have this memory other family members have called me a liar they do not believe this at all because they're like the tub was so small how could two people fit in there um

i was little i was very little and you know obviously having my grandfather expose himself like that I was so little I didn't I didn't think anything of it because I didn't know anything about sex or anything like that um but he found enjoyment in exposing himself to me and then when I was nine after a bad car accident happened with me and my mom um she was left in the hospital and somebody needed to take care of me so my grandfather stepped in and I I went to live with them for a short time. And this is where the majority of the abuse happened. And I was confused about it.

I felt like it was wrong, but I wasn't sure exactly why I felt it was wrong. And it wasn't until I got a little older that I started, you know, obviously learning. more about sex and sexual acts, that, you know, it's sad that my first memories of that has to be like, oh, yeah, that's what grandpa did to me, you know. And a lot of my family members are not speaking to me now because I have been so public about it. Yeah, yeah.

It's so hard to hear incidents like this. but then in particular at nine this is your family and this is the only assemblance of safety that you have which is which is none was do you believe your mother was aware I know that you said other family members are in denial of this but but was your mother aware what was happening She was aware after the fact. So I had on a car ride to the hospital. It was one of my checkups. I were riding in the car and I started to tell her about it.

And she started to cry. And she asked me a very specific question. And I said yes. And she started to cry. and I started to backtrack. I got scared. I didn't want to see her cry, so I started to backtrack.

I'm like, no, I, no, it didn't. And I just wasn't fully open with her about it because I could see how much she blamed herself. And it wasn't until much later that she had told me, you know, he did the same thing to her. Wow. Wow. And so she decides, hey, you know, we can't stay here anymore, mostly because of the constant drama between her and my grandfather's wife.

Okay. It just left the house very super uncomfortable. And so my mom just thought it would be best for us to leave. We stayed at the Rana McDonald's house in New Orleans for a few months, actually. Okay. And for everyone who doesn't, is not familiar with the Rwana, McDonald's house. McDonald's house. Can you explain it? So the Ron McDonald house is essentially a home, a lodging home for children in their families while the children are going through their doctor's appointments.

It's a place for them to stay near the hospital. And it's at a short fee. So I think it was like $5 a night for us, I believe. So, you know, it's crazy to say that the Ron McDonald house was kind of like, okay. that was my next home because we stayed there so much. But then my mom found Section 8 housing and that's where we lived from there. I feel like the constant arguments between her and her father, then learning of my abuse, just kind of all spiraled her more and more into this darker place.

Okay, okay. At around the age of, you know, eight or so, went in to the hospital for actually you know what I can't even remember what it was for but I did a long time in the hospital it was like a six-month stint in the hospital and that's when they put the feeding tube in and you can't recall how you got to the hospital

my mom drove us but I don't remember what the initial appointment was for okay but you ended up then going in for six months which I mean that's significantly Yeah, that's a long time. And you were given a feeding tube and then you were placing a wheelchair. Yes, so the wheelchair happened. There are so many different stories that my mom told different people.

So the initial story that my mom told to family was I went into the hospital. then upon having surgery, I had a seizure on the operating room table that left me paralyzed. That was the first story. Okay. So, of course, growing up, that's what I thought. I knew that I could walk. I just want to make that clear. I knew that I could walk.

So then she goes on to tell other people, well, she was paralyzed, and doctors, mind tell doctors that I was paralyzed since birth, even though there's pictures and there's family and there's all these people that had seen me grow up walking. Right, right. So then what I believe is hard to understand is how do doctors then believe her enough to give you the feeding to, to give you the wheelchair? How were they fooled? My mom had a very like her personality was sweet to the untrained eye, I guess you can say.

She had a very welcoming presence. Everybody, it was like that classic Southern mom. Hi, sweetie, darling, sugar, you know, all that. Yes. And there was one doctor in particular. that she honestly, I think, in my opinion, buttered up. She would buy him gifts. He would come and visit us at the Ron McDonald house.

You know, there was this sort of friendship that I don't feel is professional. You shouldn't have friendships with your patience. Okay, I see it, I see it. And so because of her charisma, right, she was able to, it sounds like, dupe these doctors. Was there ever a moment where a doctor said no and told her no? Yes, there was. And this brings us to quite a pivotal moment. There was a doctor, his name was Dr. Flashenstein.

and or flasherstein however you want to kind of say it um and he examined me he was a neurologist um pretty sure he's retired now but um he asked me to stand up in his doctor's office now i learned this on a documentary on the documentary about myself i'm learning things about my own life in a documentary Look at that. And the rough part for me is, you know, I have a therapist. And for a long time after watching the documentary, I'm like, he's lying. I never, I don't remember that. I never remember him asking me to stand.

And then a few months ago, I was laying in bed and I feel like I have two memories. And I don't know which one's real. But I think I maybe do recall him asking me to stand up. And I don't know if something was blocking that memory. But now I'm kind of like, oh my God, maybe he did. Yes. And I think I did stand up. And he told my mom, point blank, there's no reason why she can't walk.

She can walk. She's fine. And my mom left. We never went to see that doctor again. but that doctor had put in the medical records in his notes from that day. Suspicion of mother with Munchausen by proxy. He puts that in the medical records. Now my mom would always request a copy of the medical records after every appointment. Okay.

We guess, me being me, my family, my attorney, we all think that she's seen that in the medical records and chose to leave. not go to that doctor again. Okay. Okay. And so when a doctor leaves a report like that, then where does it go? Usually it would go to social services. Okay.

A family protective services, which they did come to my house. They come to my house. They separate me and my mom, her in the living room, me and my baby. me and my bedroom, they bring a sheriff or a deputy with them. Oh, my goodness. So it was two caseworkers and a deputy. And the deputy was questioning my mom in the other room about why is there a E at the end of Blanchard? Because it's just Blanchard.

There's no E at the end, but she had put an E at the end and essentially was, you know, forging all these documents. Okay, so in Blanchard, that's your last name? Yes. So Gypsy Rose Blanchard. Mm-hmm. But she's including that. Yes.

To throw people off. To throw people off. Wow, look at that. And so they questioned her, you know, why is the birth date different from this hospital to this hospital? How old is your daughter? When was she born? Yes.

Where was she born? And she goes on to tell them a story about. about how, you know, she had a terrible marriage with my father, and he's abusive. And she put the E at the end because to avoid him finding us. So I don't know what they told her if they're like, okay, fine, forget it straightened out. I don't know. But in the other room where I was being questioned, they were asking me, is there bruises on your body? Okay.

Can I look at your arms? Can I look at your legs? So I showed them my arms. I showed them my legs. And I was terrified of being taken away from my mom because my mom raised me to believe that child services, the state, as she would call it, is evil, is bad people. And so I was terrified to be taken away from my mom because at that time, yes, a lot of abuse was going on, but I also loved my mom very much. and they were asking me questions that didn't pertain to Munchausen by proxy.

Okay. There wasn't physical hitting. There wasn't punching. There wasn't physical abuse. Yes. So I didn't think to say, I could walk because they were asking the wrong questions.

And I'm not blaming them like all this is their fault. I'm just saying I think that, you know, in situations like this, munchausen by proxy should have been looked at. If you see a child, supposedly with all these medical issues, you have a doctor that writes in his notes, you know, suspicion of munchausen by proxy, why aren't you asking those questions,

the right questions, instead of asking me if I bruises, you know? If they had asked the right questions, how do you suspect your life would have been so in? and probably just told them the truth. Like, yes, I could walk. Not knowing, because I didn't know what Munchausen by proxy was. When you reflect back upon the procedures, what were all the procedures that the doctors ended up doing on you?

So the most prominent ones were, of course, the feeding tube. Now, my mother claimed that I was having trouble swallowing. Now, I have no recollection of ever having any eating, You know, the surgery happened when I was eight. So from birth all the way to eight years old, eating perfectly fine. Yes. No issues. Then all of a sudden, go into the hospital, having issues eating.

And they had put the temporary feeding tube through the nostril. And then the doctor said, we want to do something more permanent. How about let's do a G-tube? Wow, you know, I didn't realize you had a permanent. Yeah. feeding tube. Yeah. Mm-hmm. So they put a permanent feeding tube and I had that all the way up until the crime happened. So all the way through your teens? All the way through my teen years. So does that mean that you then never? It's not that I didn't eat by mouth, but ate very little by mouth. So I would

like like mashed potatoes. I was allowed to eat that. But I was mostly food. fed through the feeding tube with Piedishore or insure, which is just a supplemental nutrition shake. Okay. Okay. So that was, what, nine all the way to your early 20s. So almost two decades of having a feeding tube. What is physically, physically, what does that do to you?

I mean, physically every six months, I would have to have it changed. because any sort of foreign object in your body, the stomach acid is going to erode it away. So every six months I'd have to have it changed, which is very uncomfortable. They don't put you under anesthesia or anything for that. And just kind of feeling the something foreign in your body, certain clothing I couldn't wear because it would snag and pull and tug. I mean, it's an open hole into your stomach. Yes.

So growing up with that, you know, it was something that I adjusted to. But it left with a scar now that I don't have it. It looks like a second belly button. Yeah. So then Gypsy, what are some of the other procedures? Okay, so if you notice, I have a scar, okay, is around my neck. And I also clear my throat a lot and have to drink a lot of water. So my salivary glands that produces salivary glands,

that produces saliva was removed from my neck. My mom would put ore gel before we would go into the doctor's appointment on my mouth to make me drool. Okay. So upon examination, the doctor saw me drool. It's excessive drooling. There is a way to take care of that. So let's remove the salivary glands. Wow.

Wow. And that's a major procedure. And you are how old when that procedure happens? That procedure happened in 2007, I believe. Okay, 2007. My mom always would tell me, you know, I'm doing the talking. Just be a good girl, play with your stuffed animals. Okay.

In other words, don't say anything. Right. And if you be good, which means stay quiet, we get to go to Toys R.S. and a toy store as soon as we leave. I would imagine, too, is that you're so used to going to the doctor that this is just a normal... This is just routine. This is routine.

At home, when you're not in the hospital, you would then just remain in your wheelchair. Mm-hmm. Our day-to-day life was me in the wheelchair. I didn't get up and walk around unless she was not in the house. So if she left the house to, say, go to the grocery store for a second, I would get up and walk around. I would test the limits. Yes.

Leg strength wasn't great. Obviously, because I hadn't been walking like normal. But just to kind of feel like, hey, I'm walking. Yes. Did you ever think or bring up the fact that you could walk to your mother? I did many times and it always resulted in an argument. And it always resulted in some form of it bringing all of it back to her. Like you don't love me.

You, you know, I'm supposed to be the one you trust. I'm supposed to be the one you love. But if you feel like you can go and do better with your dad, then go. Like it was always like this level of manipulation. Like any time that I would bring up, I'm not as sick as you're saying. It was always an argument. And then I felt like I had lost a mom. And I didn't want to lose my mom.

And so, you know, some would say I went along with that. Perspective is everything. Yeah. If you want to say I went along with it, okay, but look at the reasons behind it. You have a child that wants her mom to love her. Yes. Yes. You know, that really hit me because I see that accident.

I also see what was happening in her house. I see the circumstances in which you were born. unknowing what's happened to your mother, you know, in her childhood. Yeah. And how each incident created to this spiral, as you mentioned, and you feel as if you're losing your mom. Yeah. And so you're just fighting to keep her.

Mm-hmm. And sometimes fighting to keep her is just staying silent. Correct. Yes. Mm-hmm. Did you feel. love from anyone outside of the love that you assumed that your mother was

providing you but did you feel love and when I say love is this emotional safety physical safety did you feel that with anyone back then yes no did you feel it with your mother yes for for a time I'm gonna tell that a little older okay yeah okay So when you begin to not have feel that love, and now that you reflect back as an adult, is what was happening for you? What was going on for you as a child who doesn't feel safe emotionally or physically? There was anger towards her for, I felt allowing my grandfather to take. take care of me at that time and so I blamed her for what happened to me with getting molested and there was resentment that boiled up you know it wasn't there in early childhood because I was so

innocent okay um but then the more time went on the more anger and resentment built up like you don't let me go over to dads and spend nights over or weeks over with dad. I can never keep a friend. I might have a friend for a week, and then all of a sudden my mom starts to get jealous of this friend. And we're talking a child. You know, we're talking an eight-year-old child

that you're getting jealous of. And there was always something that was wrong or off about that child, so I could no longer have that friend. And it happened over and over and over again. You know, most people have that best friend child, you know, the best friend growing up as a child. I never had that. Never. Never had that.

And that was a continuous cycle for everyone in my life. And so it's like I knew that no matter who it would be that I would get close to, it wouldn't matter because they would be, you know, they wouldn't be in my life forever. The only forever was my mom. Okay, okay. And with your mother, it seems like everything then you did was with her. Mm-hmm. Everything. Everything.

Even when you were in the same house, did you, I read that you slept in the same bed? You slept in the same bed? Mm-hmm. The only time that I was ever sleeping in my own room in my own bed was as a punishment. Interesting. Okay. Which is a small child, you know, I mean, young child. I grew up. I loved sleeping with my mom as a child.

And I was afraid of the dark. And so a punishment of mine would be, you know, you have to sleep in your room. And I would cry and I would cry and I would beg to go back to sleep with her. But it's certain things in parenting that it's like you need to show your child gain some independence and not make independence a punishment. Yes. Yes. Yes, absolutely. And I won't imagine now more so than anything, you're very aware. Oh, yes, I'm very.

Yes, of that. What did you enjoy doing as a child? As a child, you know, I loved playing outside. I loved as a small, small child. I had a bunch of cousins. And we'd do cousins by the dozens nights. All the cousins would come over and do sleepovers. I loved to watch TV.

I love dressing up, love Disney movies, love playing with my dolls and Hot Wheels. Like my toys and my mom was like my comfort. Okay. And I can see how she used the toy store because that was it. Yeah. It was the toys. I loved a good Hot Wheel myself.

Yes, they are good collectors. Yeah, very good. There's been an endless number of documentaries, TV specials, extended podcasts. about your life. Yeah. It centers around your childhood, the crime. Was there anything that you want to clarify that you've seen or heard about from these documentaries

that you do believe is inaccurate? That's a load of question. I mean, nothing that I could really touch on specifically. I mean, all I know is that, you know, from birth, to, you know, five years oldish, you know, the simplicity of having my mom, even with the medical stuff. I loved my mom so much at that time. My mom was my world. I see she was everything and the only thing that she had. Yeah.

Yeah. Real quick, hit follow and tap the bell icon. It allows us to continue bringing you this show that we all love. We can go anywhere in the world right now. I'm in L.A. And we'll bring you the most phenomenal guess. And the only thing it costs you is to hit follow and tap the bell icon. You then start dating.

Kind of. Kind of. Kind of. How does that happen? And also, how does your mother react to that? Because you just mentioned when it comes to platonic friends, she runs them away. Mm-hmm. So how does, yeah, how do you start doing that?

Well, my mom, how do I put this? My mom was very anti-men. Once my father broke her heart, it's kind of like I grew up with a mom that became, bitter, I'm just going to put it out there bitter, that every man is a horrible douchebag that is just out to hurt everyone. So my mom never, like my mom wanted me to be a nun, literally, and she was going to put me in a convict. Like she really wanted me to be a nun, even though I never expressed to her that I wanted to be one. Um, so knowing that I always knew she, didn't want me to date. You can't stop the curiosity in a child or a teen. And that's where I was at.

You know, I was curious about the opposite sex. I was wondering, you know, so-and-so lives down the street. She has a boyfriend. And I started comparing my life to other, you know, people around my age, watching the Disney Channel. They have these sort of pseudo-boyfriends on TV shows and stuff. Yes. So I started getting curious, but I got curious in the wrong way. So instead of, you know, obviously kids meet other kids via school. I wasn't in school. So I went to the Internet.

And I found creeps on the Internet. I did things on the Internet I'm not proud of, like take my clothes off for strangers. these men that I would, you know, meet online, they were predatory. And I wasn't thinking anything different other than, yeah, this is an experience that I've had before. So it's normal. It was normal. So it's kind of like I made a secret Facebook account that she didn't know about. I was adding strangers on there, you know, meeting what I thought would be friends.

Yes. And then we went, there was a kind of like, I don't know if you know what Comic-Con is or like a sci-fi convention type of thing. So there was one that would happen in Springfield, Missouri every year. It was called VisionCon. Okay. And so anyway, my mom takes us to this convention. and we meet lots of nice people. We have a great time.

I dressed up like a princess. It was fun. I started adding all these people that went to the convention on my Facebook. Ah, okay. Okay. And they would say, like, oh, it was so nice to see you at the convention. So at least there was some level of, like, interaction. Like, oh, you were at the convention, so was I.

And there was a guy that was at the convention. He sent me a Facebook. request. His name was Dan and he was much older than I was. So I was, um, real age 18. Okay. 18, 19. But my mom was trying to pass me off as 15. Okay. So he thought that I was 15. Okay. He was 36 at the time. Okay. And started talking on Facebook and just on Facebook. I thought he was cute and he was kind of digging me too. Okay. Is this your first kind of interaction, pseudo-romantic?

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So we flirted for a while and then I start telling him more about my life and my mom had caught us talking on the phone and she threatened him. Oh, wow. Okay.

And then I found, I was going through my mom's purse and I found my, like my health insurance card. And it said my birthday was 1991. And so I'm like, that would make me like 18, 19, not 15. So I tell this to him. And I'm like, well, that would make me legal. Like, I can go live with you. Like, you know, like all this were like ideas. Yes.

And he's like, well, that would make me legal. Well, if you're legal, then you could just get up and leave. Like, you can just, you can leave. And I'm like, I don't have a car. I don't have a way to leave. And so he's like, I'll take you as far as Arkansas. Like, we can live together on a ranch in Arkansas. So two weeks go by, I get a text from him that he's in the hospital, that he wants me to join him in the hospital.

He wants someone to be there with him. He got beat up. So I pack a bag. and in the middle of the night I get out of my mom's bed pack bag go out the front door hitchhike meet him at the hospital

and he didn't have a home he was couch surfing at his friends and so we go to his friends they realize that I'm there and they recognize me from the convention and they realize

this girl is 15 years old So they got in contact with a mutual friend of my mom's, told my mom where I was. Four hours later, my mom comes to pick me up. And she told me, she's like, if you come back with me, I'll let you see him. Manipulation to the fullest. So I get in the car, I'm like, okay. And I mean, at this time, I'm like all courage and I'm like, I know I'm 19 and I know that I could see him. Yes.

And she's like, if you come back with me, I will let you see him. So I go back with my mom. And that's when I got chain, tied. To me, all these, you know, words restrained to the bed happened for two weeks. For two weeks? Mm-hmm. You were tied to the bed. Mm-hmm.

So what my mom did was she took a dog leash. and clipped it and tied it to a pair of like handcuffs and then put it around the bed and then whenever like I would need to go to the bathroom she would undo it and then like she had a way like because we were in the same bed so she can tell if I would move or whatever she'd wake up and it was like that for two weeks she put bells on the doors and then eventually put a padlock on the door blacked out all the windows with tent, like window tent. That's when she started hitting me, though. That's when the hitting started. At this point, you know you're 18, 19,

but she's telling you that you're 15. Yes. Your relationship with your mother, do you perceive her to still love you? I didn't feel like it was. love. I felt like it was a need. Like she needs me because she doesn't have anyone else. Okay. Um, and so it's like after she tied me up, I gained enough trust to where I'm like, I'm not going to leave again. I'm not going to leave again. Don't worry about it. I'm not

going to leave. Um, so that trust was built up enough to be let off the chain. Well, then it's like soon after I attempt to run away again. Oh, wow. Okay. But this time, like, she found out. And looking back on it, I'm like, why pack a damn bag? Just get out of the freaking house. Because I kept packing bags. Like, let me pack a bag.

Right. She found my bag. And so she knew I was going to run away again. And so, and I owned up to it, too. I was like, just let me leave and I will, you'll never see me again. I'm, you know, just forget about me. Just let me go. And she's like, I won't and I can't and you're not leaving.

And that's when I proceeded to take a BB gun and I knew full in well it was a BB gun. It was not going to kill her. I took a BB gun and she came toward me and I freaked out and I released the BB gun. One hit her in the clavicle. one hit in the leg. They were superficial wounds. You know, they broke the skin, but ultimately a Band-Aid covered it up. And then after that happened, like, we both had this moment of like sit on the bed.

Holy shit moment. And I was never the type to be violent, ever. I never yelled at my mom. I never hit my mom. it was like it was at that moment that I realized that something in me snapped, that I could snap in that big of a way. And what was your mother's response? I honestly feel like she never expected to be trapped in her own choices. Her own design was falling apart in front of her.

and I don't think that she realized that, and I don't mean this in any sort of mean way, but I don't think she realized I had the guts to stand up for myself in any meaningful way. And so is it at this point where you then join the Christian dating site? I did. About a year later. Okay. About a year later, I had joined the Christian website. And then the first thing that I noticed of Nick's profile is he likes to play video games.

Okay. You're chatting back and forth. Mm-hmm. Does your mother become aware? No. No. So I had a secret Facebook. I had, you know, a secret Skype account.

Wow. Okay. I have a conversation with him that I want to meet him. We want to meet each other in real life. Oh, so, wow, gypsy. How long had you and Nick been corresponding without having a minute? It was like two years. Two years?

It was like two years, yeah. You had never met? Never met. Okay. No. Yeah, I mean, it was just like kind of like Skype calls and stuff like that, all on the Internet. Okay. And so we make a plan and I'm like, listen, my mom is not going to just let me just date anybody.

So maybe if she meets you, she could see. what a nice person you are and she'll like you, you could be my friend and then, like, I can ask her if, you know, you could maybe be my boyfriend. And then we won't have to hide or lie anymore. So we think of this event. Like, where possibly could I be and you be?

And I wanted to see the new Cinderella remake, the live action remake. Okay. That came out in 2015. So we decide, okay, that's where we're going to meet up. So my mom and I are going to go see the movie, and you're going to be there too to see the movie, but we're not together. We're going to meet like we never met.

I see it. I see it. So we're standing in line. You know, comes the day. We're standing in line getting popcorn and stuff like that. And he's there alone. But I didn't realize the optics of how that would look. like here's this guy

that's alone, doesn't have kids, doesn't have a girlfriend, doesn't have a wife, nothing like that, just go and see a little girl movie. I did not see how that would be weird. Until you got there. No, until years later, and I'm like, you know what? Yeah, that was kind of creepy.

Like, what were we thinking? But my mom called it. She's like, this guy has given me weird vibes. And so we're in the auditor. Ram and my mom and I are sitting next to each other. Well, he comes sit next to me. Oh, wow. Okay. My mom decides, hey, this guy's kind of giving me the creeps.

So she moves several seats down. I stay put. I'm sitting with him. I'm not moving. She gets pissed that I didn't move with her. So throughout the whole movie, you know, she's sitting there and I'm sitting over there with him. She's mad at me at this point. Like I know I'm in trouble at this point.

Yes. And he and I had previously discussed that we were going to have sex in the bathroom. So I go to the bathroom, to the men's bathroom, go to the handicapsal. He follows me in. We attempt to have sex. Doesn't work out. Okay. And I go back, sit, you know, sit next to my mom.

She proceeds to take me to the bathroom on the opposite side, slaps me across the face, and says, you are going too long. What were you doing? So I was like, nothing, nothing, nothing. Of course, I'm going to say nothing, nothing, nothing. Right. So the movie ends. We leave.

he takes a cab back to his hotel and we have a huge argument at the house. You and your mother? Me and my mom. Okay. About how she got the creeps from this guy, like why I didn't go sit with her.

Like the smallest little things would just kind of set her off. So I'm like, I'm sorry. I was just trying to make a new friend. You know, I was doing my best to kind of like bridge that connection because I really wanted, you know, I really wanted both of them in my life.

I wanted my mom in my life, and I wanted Nick in my life. And she was not budging. She got a bad vibe from him from the beginning. You and Nick then just continue messaging back and forth. Continue messaging. And you feel like this is your boyfriend still. Yeah. And then your mother, your relationship with your mother, does it continue to deteriorate?

there continues to deteriorate and we had previously yes knocked around the idea of murder you did and it was from all stemming from a conversation where he's like it was it was an argument between me and my mom stuff got physical she hit me i told him she hit me and he's like i'm going to protect you from anyone i said anyone he said anyone i said even my mom and he said yes he said yes even your mom. Like, I'll take her out too. And never thinking that that was actually going to happen. Okay. So for you, it wasn't a serious thought. It wasn't a serious thought until after what happened at the movie theater. Okay. Okay. So, really, so after the movie theater, then at that point, you were, it will help me understand how it became a serious thought after the movie theater.

Because that's when I started to realize, like, no matter what I do, I will never be able to be my own person, never have my own freedom, never make my own choices, I'll never get married. Like, all of the thoughts of like, what is my life going to be like in the next 20 and 30 years? Is it going to be like this right here? Is my life going to continue to be this? For the rest of my life, my youth gone. any happy moments of future children, anything like this. How long is this going to continue? And that thought kept going in my head over and over and over again.

So yes, the desperate thought of, I want my mom out of the picture. And it's like, I didn't want her dead necessarily. If she would have went to prison, I would have been all the happier. But that unfortunately was a conversation he and I had. Okay. Okay. So you had it. Mm-hmm.

And also I'm curious, Gypsy, at this point, you are roughly how old, because I know age-wise, you don't know exactly. I was, I was 23. Okay. Okay. You were 23. So this is even more fascinating because you're an adult at this point, but you still feel as if you are trapped in your mother's home and you'll never be able to leave it.

Right. Literally. Right. Okay. The relationship with Nick as well is how would you characterize it? Because I've seen moments or excerpts where it's been characterized as abusive. But how do you characterize that relationship? Toxic.

It was toxic. Toxic. Very, very toxic. Okay. How so? Our personalities were not a good, not a good fit. Our backgrounds was not a good fit. I say, and I say this in my book, you know, Nick was the car, I was the key. He was the gasoline, I was the fire. Separately, probably not dangerous.

together catastrophic because he brought a component to me and I brought a component to him that resulted in tragedy his conversations with me was predominantly about sex it was predominantly about overpowering a woman

because he had an interest in this BDSM master slave relationship And he had this with his ex-girlfriends as well. So it was before me, during me, and after me. So this is not something I brought to the relationship. This is something that he had a thing for. And I had not heard of, you know, this sort of master-slave relationship until meeting him.

And so I did what I could to fulfill that fantasy for him. And that included making videos that we would send back and forth to each other. Those videos have now been released to the public. Is that what, because of the court case or for other reasons? Okay. They are quite humiliating because these videos were intimate. They're not meant for the public. They were meant for Nick and Nick and only at the time.

but anything from, you know, doing sexual acts to saying really disturbing things that I definitely regret later on now. Right. I think what's important for, I think, us all to understand, too, is the context, because from what I understand is you had no one else. Right. So literally, your world revolved around than your mother. and Nick, two people that you are desperately in need of loving you. Do you believe they loved you? I believe my mother loved me to an extent.

I think that she didn't know how to show love. I think that, unfortunately, you know, she didn't get the mental health, the mental health help that she would have needed to understand how to love a child, and have a raise a child on her own going through the childhood that she had. Nick, I do not believe he loved me one bit. I believe that I was someone who was in a very specific situation, vulnerable situation, to fill out his fantasies.

he often had fantasies that were very disturbing could you rape fantasies and he was looking for someone who was not worldly and experienced so someone in a very vulnerable state to live out these fantasies with

or two and And like I said, it would be one thing if, you know, I brought a certain element into the relationship that was equally as disturbing. Like if those were my desires, but it wasn't. And before me, you know, his ex-girlfriends did warn me. There was an ex-girlfriend that did warn me that he has very disturbing behavioral patterns. And I brushed it off like, she's just a jealous ex-girlfriend. and I completely ignored it.

And then until it was too late. And then also post, post me, post our relationship, he's went on to have another relationship, prison relationships. And where he continues the same cycles over and over again. Okay, okay. Going to the crime, what I understand, was a catalyst for you also. Was it your throat that was going to be?

It was going to be like biopsy, explored, explored. And they were going to, you know, have to do more things to my throat, but on my voice box this time. Okay, so you were, so if you can take me to that, because it seems like that, that was an important moment for you, for you. Yes, like it was, it was a moment where I was, I had already had throat surgery already. And it was a rough surgery.

And so the thought of going through another procedure that I'm like, well, this time, you're going to start messing with my voice. And that's terrifying. You know, I felt like how much more are you going to take from me? And so June 10th. 2015, if you can take me to that day or even the preceding day and walk me through it, step by step, what you were thinking, what was going on for you? So I knew that that was the day.

I had been texting with Nick. He said, you might want to start saying your goodbyes. and so I just remember my mom and I said we're going to paint our nails and watch a movie and I wanted to make it a good night

I wanted to make it a night that I felt like I would remember her for the good so she cooked dinner she ate her dinner I painted her nails she painted my nails picked out of her movie and laid down she took a little longer to fall asleep and then I fell asleep then I woke up shortly

like five minutes after she fell asleep and I texted him that she fell asleep um and I said the gloves are on the porch and he's like okay I'm taking a cab over and he not like he didn't knock on the door he um he texted me he's like I'm here so I get up out of bed and I walk over open the door first thing he said when he comes to the door is this bitch is dead and I told him like be quiet be quiet and he's like where's the knife so I hand him the knife and he said get your bleeping ass to the bathroom so I go to the bathroom. I closed the door. I locked the door behind me. And I just kind of get into the fetal position and I cover my ears. And that's what happened. If, if, and at any point, you don't want to, to discuss this, we can, we can move on. A few questions, though, that, that I have is so going into that day, it sounds like over the last maybe two, you know Nick now for what, two years, three years. Yeah. There, you have discussed murder previously with him. He's had fantasies of raping,

murdering. How did you know, how did you, why did you believe that it was actually going to happen on this day? I honestly didn't think that he was going to go through with it until it actually happened. And then after it happened, there was a point where I didn't process what happened. He was walking around the house and talking at a normal voice tone. And I was like, shh, you're going to wake her up. Like there was a level of distance from the situation where like I was still, she was dead in the other room.

and I'm still thinking, I'm afraid she's going to wake up, see you in the house, and, you know, punish me in some type of way. Did you go to see your mother? No. No, I did not go in that room. I, Nick actually, anytime, because her room is like right here, my room is right here, and then there's the hall. And so he would block her room. So anytime I was walking in and out of my room, he would block the area. So I couldn't see.

Okay. Okay. Now, I know that you're aware of how severe the murder was. And I understand he used the knife that you provided him. And that the stabbing was so severe that it almost severed her head. Did he talk about the murder at all? No. There was no discussion?

No discussion of it. Not after the fact, no. Okay. Did you, when in the bathroom, because I would imagine there was a tussle, there was a, there was a fight that ensued. Did you hear anything? Yes. You did. What, can you say, what did you hear?

I heard screaming. And it was like horrible sound. It was a horrible sound. It was screaming. It was shock. I almost think I heard, Who Are You? Was asked. And I am right because, um, according to some of the transcripts of Nick's testimony and other inmates that had talked to him,

she had asked who are you and he responded I am death um so I do know that that was probably what I heard um and I remember her calling out for my name and like I wanted to go and help her like I wanted to go and help her like I felt like I wanted to go and help her but I was terrified at the same time like my body was paralyzed I couldn't move um And I just kept remember. Breathe. Remember to just breathe. And I kept telling myself in that mind, just breathe.

And I was so focused on like trying to breathe and block it out. And I just remember one sharp scream and then nothing after that. And then I realized it was over. And then he came to the bathroom door and knocked for me to open up the door. What did he say to you? He didn't, I don't think he said anything. He had cut his finger. And so he wanted me to bandage him up.

And he wanted me to be completely naked when I opened up the door. And so I was completely naked. And he wanted me to hug him. So there was this sort of embrace where it was, I was in a state of shock that I couldn't believe what happened. And he, now I better understand knowing his previous desires and BDSM and BDSM. and what he had said to you previously. Now I understand why he said, when I come to the door, you should be naked.

I understand that he then assaulted you. Yes. That specifically was really difficult because prior to having the crime happen, he wanted to assault my mom. That was his fantasy. He wanted to assault my mom. I felt like that was too.

far. I was like, no, I will not, you know, do it to me instead. And he said, fine. That's, that's the, that's the price you have to pay then. If you don't want me to do that to your mom, you're going to have to let me do it to you. And I agreed. So come to that point, keep in mind, I was a virgin. Come to that point. I guess, I agreed to something I didn't fully understand. And that's all I'll say about that. And what's even more horrible is I had to testify in court. And I had to, I'm going to be open and honest and say that I had to basically say he didn't rape me.

because he got me to agree to it. So is it, even though I said stop, I said no stop, you're hurting me. But because I previously agreed to it, now I'm confused. What is consensual? Yeah, I thought consent is given and removed in a moment's notice. I thought so too, but apparently not in the court's eyes.

So because you had what verbally or in a text said that you were open to having sex That that gave him open consent And in the eyes of the court they feel the same way too Because I told the court I said stop And they said Did he with you And they have evidence that I agreed to it

So I said no Knowing full and well If he did This is in court was this is in What state was this? Missouri This is in Missouri Okay

Okay Yeah that's That's that's a horrendous Law there And so After the assault How do you feel in that moment If you can go back

It was also you have to understand That there was yes, there was this assault and yes, there was the crime. But Nick had also claimed that he has multiple personalities. So during this whole time, he's switching back and forth between personalities. Oh, interesting. I don't know if you've ever seen in the movie split. Yes, I have.

It was like that. Or you can just change just like that. So the person that murdered my mother, his name is Victor, not Nick. Okay. Person who assaulted me is Victor, not Nick. So in my mind, these are two completely different people. I'm not looking at the, you know, the person that just assaulted me and Nick is being the same person. I'm thinking, okay, you know, one means to hurt me.

but also save me. And the other one is just, you know, the nick that I had been talking to for two plus years. I see it. So I was compartmentalizing at the time. Okay. And did you, at the time, did you believe that he was multiple people in essence? Yes. Okay, you did.

I fully believed it. Like I said, I grew up with a mom that heard voices, saw things. So I was pretty gullible to just believe about anything. Okay. Okay. Now I see. So then what do you two do at this point? So we go back because he was staying at a hotel nearby. So we go back to the hotel. And I also had been self-medicating. I had developed a addiction to opiates. So I was taking three Xanaxes and Vicodins all together.

and I was very, very high after the fact. Ordering pizza, giggling, laughing, not a care in the world. Okay. And this is in the house? No, no, no, no. In the hotel? In the hotel. Okay.

Next day. And so you both left your mother's body in the house? Yep. Was there thoughts on, we're going to cover this up, or the thought was there was, there There was no thought. There was no thought. It was just. It was just live, live, and every step was not planned.

It was literally after it happened, it was run. Run to different state. Forget about it. It didn't exist. Okay. So you went to the hotel, ordered pizza, you're just. Chilling. Chilling, watching shows.

having a good time. And so then 24 hours at a certain point you post or who post. So one of the two of you post. You post. Okay. And what do you post? So we were already back in Wisconsin at this time. That's where he lived.

Okay. And I logged into my mom's Facebook account because I did not like the idea of her just being there. I felt very unsettled, very uncomfortable with it, like that level of remorse and just like, I want her found. She deserves a proper burial. So I want her found. So I log into her Facebook account and I think back to what he said when he came in the house. The bitch is dead. So that's what I put.

My mom hardly ever cussed, especially around people. So that's what I put to seem alarming. So the authorities could go and find her, and then she could be given a burial. What about, did you discuss that with Nick to post? Was that or that was just you? I'm pretty sure that was just me. Okay. Did it draw the authorities?

It did. Okay. Ultimately, the goal that I wanted to have her found happened. Okay. So she's found by the police? Mm-hmm. All right. But then what happens to you, Nick?

They think that I was kidnapped. I was missing. So to the authorities, I was missing. Now also you have to understand that my brain was not functioning in a logical way because I went around the house before we left the scene, taking down all the pictures of me thinking that I would not exist if there would just be no pictures of me around the house. Okay.

Didn't make sense at all. So days go by. They think I'm missing. Then all of a sudden they track the IP address to his house. From the post? From the post. That she made. Interesting.

Okay. Right. Because whoever posted that was aware of what happened. Exactly. Okay. I was not aware of technology that's smart. well um so they track the IP address

and then the next morning we wake up to the sound of a barking dog which is what was actually the canine unit um and to police squads surrounding the house in armored vehicles oh my goodness okay um and I told him I was like

what do I say like what do I say what do I do um and he said and you're going to tell the police that your mom kicked you out, that you were kicked out and your mom got mad at you, so you left, and I came to pick you up. And you don't know what happened. Okay?

So I went down first, I surrendered first, put me in a cop car. Then they asked me, once they had me in cuffs, does he have any weapons, does, you know, have any bombs or anything? And I'm like, no. So they got him to come down. They take him into custody in a separate car. And they bring us to the police station in separate cars. Okay.

And then as you're headed to the police station, what are you thinking? Is it that you fooled them because you took the photos down? I was honestly terrified for Nick. I was terrified for him because I, At that point, I didn't think how, I didn't see how I can get in any trouble. You know, I'm like, I just had a conversation with him, you know? So in my mind, I was definitely downplaying my part. Okay, okay.

So you thought you'd get to the station, he would then? He would be in trouble. And I told him, I was like, we, I had stole money out of my mom's safe. It was like, 5,000, 4,000, 5.000. thousand dollars and with that money I was like I'm gonna get you the best lawyer possible we're talking like OJ Simpson amazing lawyer because I had no concept of money you know and how much things cost so you know I'm still fully in love with Nick at this point yes I don't want him to be in trouble

I want to get him out of there and I'm not the scope of how I'm in trouble too. Okay. When do you then realize you're in trouble too? Upon being charged with first degree murder. What goes through your mind when you hear that? Terrified. Terrified.

Because that holds with it. Is it life or is that? Life without parole. Life without parole. Okay. Okay. So then you're immediately incarcerated. Okay.

And for what I understand is, and then you remain incarcerated until just a few years ago. Yes. Yeah. Walk me through the case because you made it clear to tell me right there, I was still in love with Nick. At what point do you fall out of love with Nick? Is it during the case? It was. I think and I look back on this too and I feel like it was you know Nick had been the only one other than my mom that I was talking to for you know two plus years so it was like the moment that I had any significant amount of time away from him that's what I started to be able to think on my own and and think about is this relationship healthy what is it that I love about him?

Am I romanticizing the crime that we just committed as an act of saving me? Or is there something more sinister that I didn't see before? Okay. And then during that time, you're going through the court procedure. You're now off the opioids. Mm-hmm. I know that you've reflected upon that murder multiple times, multiple times, multiple times, multiple times. What's then you're feeling towards your mother and what happened?

I was so upset with family and with the media because we're only allowed one legacy in this. life. You know, when someone passes away, all they have left is their name. And I was feeling regret and remorse about allowing the media to paint her as a villain. When I'm like, the thing is, is what if she's not a villain, but rather just a very sick woman that needed help. Okay. Okay. So I started to feel a lot of guilt about that. And then upon getting to prison is when I started to feel the pain and the loss of, okay, I'm never going to see her again. I'm never going to be able to have this closure moment to ask her, well, you know, why this, why that.

Would she forgive me? there's no closure on either side. Yeah. They were court proceedings for you. But there's a trial for Nick. Why is that the case? Because I was offered a plea deal. So the prosecutor felt like there was enough evidence to,

enough mitigating evidence to offer me a plea deal, to 10 years in the Department of Corrections, take it or leave it. So I took it. Okay. Now, I know that there was, and this is right around the time when you hit my level of awareness, you know, my radar,

because this case, or should I say, this moment was all over the news. It was everywhere. It was headline news. And I recall there being two schools of thought around that plea deal for you. Or should I say three schools of thought. One was, okay, that sounds about right. Another was no way she deserves life in sentence or worse, or a life in prison or worse.

And another is, no, she should get off entirely, completely. When you reflect on a 10-year plea deal for your participation in murdering your mother, do you believe that was the correct sentence? No. You don't. I feel like if I would have spent the rest of my life in prison, that would have been fair for the crime that was committed. Oh, my goodness. goodness so then you feel as if Nick was given the right sentence yes okay I don't feel like

I don't feel like he should have be free but I do feel like he does need a lot of mental help therapy that needs to be done with him and prison does not rehabilitate you to the best of their ability in the mental health space. They just don't. But yeah, if that would have been the outcome, that would have been fair for the crime that was committed. Now, do I also understand where the prosecution was coming from by offering me mercy? I do. Okay.

So I'm appreciative for the second chance that I've been given, but I understand where people are coming from with feeling like the sentence didn't match the crime. Okay. Okay. Well, that's profound for you to say that. Very profound. Were you aware of the media attention that this story got around the world? old, but namely in the United States. Not to the degree that it was. You hear little bits from other inmates and what their families tell them, but there is not a lot, especially in jail. You're not even allowed to read your own articles.

If they make a story and you're in it, they take it out, they rip it out. Oh, interesting. Okay. So all of the papers had like these little cutouts and holes and everything. thing because obviously it was such a big case, but I couldn't read any of it and I couldn't watch any of it. Anytime it would come on the news, the guards would turn off the TV. So I was so kept from it.

That's interesting. So you only knew through other inmates, through the family and friends of the other inmates. They would talk to, yeah. They would talk to, and then they would tell you. Yeah. And what were you hearing? What were they telling you? I mean, a range of different things like, man, your case.

is really big, like everybody's talking about it. But other than that, that's it. And then I went to prison. And then obviously when the act came out, Hulu's the Act, that kind of blew up. Like, that was insane. I went from just being just a case to now being a TV character. Okay. Did you, while in prison, did you see the act?

I did not. No, I heard about it because. I was getting lots of fan mail and talking about it. And they would ask me questions and I didn't know what they were referring to because they had sort of like that had a lot of tweaks and changes that never happened in my real life. So the things that they were referencing happened in the show. Okay. And I'm like, what are you talking about? Okay.

But now, now hold on, gypsy. You said you received a lot of fan mail. Mm-hmm. What was, when was the first, or what was the first fan mail that you received? And how did you feel knowing that you received fan mail? So, before the act came out, a documentary, the first documentary was HBO's Mommy Dead and Dearest, directed by Aaron Lee Carr. And after that documentary, I was receiving a lot of mail, and it was supportive mail. I really don't like something fan mail, but it was a lot of supportive mail from people all around the world that watch this documentary.

And my story resonated with them for some reason. And I'm curious how in that gypsy, what were they writing to you? What were they saying? Telling me about their lives. A lot of them were very open to opening up about their own traumas. Okay. They felt like they could relate in some way or another. And it was it was where I didn't feel so alone.

Like I started to realize that there was a lot more people out there that goes through some really hard stuff in their life. Okay. And I was able to form friendships with these pen pals over time. All right. That's interesting. It's interesting. So prison, though, is much different than your previous, you know, living situation. Very much.

How did you adjust to prison, to living there? I adjusted quite well, I feel. It was more freedom than I had ever had in my life. And it's crazy when people hear that for me, but it's the truth. In prison, I was able to find myself in a controlled environment. But I was able to make friends. Making friends is not easy, especially. an adult, but I was able to make choices for myself, discover who I am, discover what kind of music I like,

run around, go to the gym, go to school. I got my GED while I was in prison. So, and I want to say this delicately, but I'll just say it is that, so initially, did you enjoy your time? I I won't say that it's in joy I will say it's live in a in a new way okay so you enjoyed living it was enjoyment in a new way

because yeah there was enjoyment but at the same time the sacrifice is the time that I missed from my family that wanted a relationship with me you know that's eight and a half years of me watching my sister grow up go to prom my my brother get married you know all these life moments that now i cannot join with them in um that i'm having to watch

from afar that is the punishment um prison itself i had a routine i had a job i didn't so much mind living there. If I had no family to go home to, prison probably wouldn't have been the worst thing in the world. Interesting. Yeah, and I also thinking that you never, you didn't have any friends. So, so your entire life, you haven't had any friends. You don't know how to navigate that. You haven't had experiences of people, you know, being your friend for alter your reasons or not. Exactly. So how did you navigate that in prison?

I'm still navigating that to this day. But I will say I was blessed to have two really good friends that I'm still friends with to this day. They are both currently still locked up.

But there was never a time where I felt taken advantage of by them. And for me, that's big. Now, I also know in prison is where you met your previous husband. Yes. Yes. So let's talk about that.

Oh, God. Oh, God. First, how do you meet and marry someone while being in prison? How do you do that? Well, I had received a letter from a man that's local. Like a Louisiana born native. So I was like, oh, it's someone, you know, from my neck of the woods, you know, a Louisiana Cajun boy. Yes.

So I wrote back and he seemed very sweet. And we made friends. It's not like we got into a relationship right out the gate. But he made me laugh. He made me laugh. And that was something that. is needed sometimes in prison. Sometimes you just need someone to make you laugh.

Okay, all right. I see it. I see it. So now, how many men were supportive, were writing you supportive letters? That I wrote back to or no? Not that you wrote back to you. I'm just curious, what was the incoming like for you? I mean, the incoming, I was getting a mix.

You know, I would get hundreds of letters. And what time period? Hundreds. And I mean, I would say in the months after a documentary or the act came out. And it got to be where the prison no longer had physical mail. They have tablets now with its own email system. Oh, wow. Okay.

So the emails would come in through that certain system. And it was hundreds, you know, over the course of the next few months after the act came out. Um, I mean, that's exactly how I met my current boyfriend. I mean, that's, I met my current boyfriend before I met my ex-husband. Did you? Yes. So my current boyfriend, his name is Ken. Okay.

He wrote me after watching Mommy Dead and Dearest. Okay. It was a supportive letter, not on any kind of romantic level. He gave me his work schedule. I gave him a call within five minutes of talking on the phone. I felt like we had known each other our whole lives besties. Really? All right, you have to help me on this.

He's dating. This is a spot, an area that I know, but I don't know about prison dating. Yeah. All right, so he sends you a letter. In the letter, he includes his schedule. Yeah, like work time. This is my phone number. This is when I work.

So he's already then approaching you in a romantic way. No. I mean, that's just calls or calls. I mean, it's not like you can, you know, do very much, but like calls is how you, you know, talk to people, get to know people. So you're getting hundreds of supportive mail and email. But how many of those are people trying that you believe are trying to actively engage in a romantic relationship with you? I mean, I would say about like 60% of them.

I have my own thoughts on that. Yes. Please, because I know that that is a fetish. Okay, I have my thoughts. Okay. My thought is that I didn't get a chance to watch the documentary until I was already out of prison. So upon watching the documentary, from what I kind of gather is, you know, watching my story and then kind of watching where I was at that time. I feel like men instinctually want to protect.

And then I'm also a chronic flirt. So I can see how I can kind of go that route too. So that's my thoughts. Okay. Okay. All right. What was in the early time in prison, what do you believe your self-esteem levels were?

Very low. Very low. Very low. Okay. All right. So it must have been a thrill then to get this, this supportive mail because it's validation. It's external validation. Absolutely.

Right. That I can also see it's very hard then to discern who to respond to. So you have an ongoing relationship or messaging back and forth with Ken. but then also so then how does Ryan come into play Ryan okay so Ken and I dated and my parents

he got to meet my parents we got engaged after two years we got engaged oh my goodness okay they made e-news it was all over the news it was all over every media tabloid and he left me

Ken did yeah he dumped me in October it was the day after his birthday same year we got engaged um he left me and broke my heart when i tell you we still sometimes have arguments about him you know i say abandoning because that you know prison was the time that i needed someone i needed support i needed someone to ride or die with me through the thick and the thin of it you know and I felt like he was going to be that one and for him to turn off all emotion and not answer my calls

and then go on to get into another relationship he got with another girl literally two months after leaving me um and went on to have a four and a half year relationship with that woman And so also 2020 was the year of COVID. So Ryan wrote me during COVID after watching the documentary. And unfortunately his, his was a lot different than Ken's though. Okay. Ken, a friend of his named Diane, had watched my documentary first and was like, hey, you got to watch this documentary. It's so good.

And they watched it together. Whereas Ryan watched it then was at work having a conversation with a co-worker. The co-worker said, hey, I've been watching a lot of things about Tiger King. And then Ryan was like, well, if you write Tiger King, I'll write Gypsy Rose Blanchard. And then it was on a dare. Okay? And at the time, I was like, okay, it's whatever. It's whatever.

So 2020 was a very lonely year for me. And he made me laugh. And there were many times that I felt like I was not physically attracted to him. But I was getting emotional comfort so much so that, you know, when he was like, I want to get married. Like there were several times I told him I'm like I just think of you like a brother or like I think of you like a cuddle buddy You know um but he was always just has to be romantic has to be romantic has to be romantic Um and then later you know the the prison emails between us back and forth were released to the public Oh my goodness and people could see how he was so aggressive at

wanting the relationship or nothing. And so essentially, I married him for the wrong reasons. I was like, I felt like I settled. I felt like if I couldn't have Ken, I didn't want to die alone. And I wanted to at least prove to myself that I could maybe move past my heartbreak with Ken and go on to marry someone and be okay with just that. And I wasn't. We were married for like a year and a half.

And even the marriage, so the marriage, the actual wedding ceremony, it must have taken place in prison. It did. In the visitation room by the bathroom. Wow. Okay. Romantic. Yes, so romantic. Yes.

And who then attends your wedding? The only person that attended was my friend, the OG friend. and my parents couldn't come, I think, because like the COVID stuff was still going on. So there was so much limiting how much interaction, how many people could come visit at one time, I think. So it was just my friend and that's it. So I have to ask this, too, is by this time you had served how many years in prison? Seven, seven and a half? Okay, seven and a half.

Okay, you had served seven and a half years. and you felt as if you had only a few more years left because you didn't know if you'd be released early or not. I had my parole hearing in December of 2021. Okay. And so I knew when I would be going home. I knew my release date.

Wow. So you knew you were within a year. So then Gypsy. Why do it? Why do it? Okay, well, because I was not paroling, to the state of Missouri. I was paroling to the state of Louisiana.

I had to enter into something called an interstate compact. So what that means is you can parole to a spouse or a family member, but you cannot parole to a boyfriend. So I could have paroled to my family. I had that option. Before I met Ryan, that was my plan. And then I met Ryan. And then, of course, I wanted to live with my boyfriend who had been waiting a few years for me.

So, you know, I just, I struggled with, do I go live with my family or do I go live with a partner that has been waiting for me? You know? And so that was the benefit of why then. Okay. I see it. No. I see it. So what in the world happens?

How do you, to break up? Well, I get released. I get released and I go home with him. We had an apartment in Lake Charles and I'm not going to say that I was unhappy. I was not unhappy. We had taken a trip to New York because we were filming a reality TV show essentially. Um Essentially or you were

You were Like you know It started a few days before I got out The The Gypsy Rose Life After Lockup Series And so we are Navigating Filming this show about my life

Present Day And so that adds such an element Of stress to it I mean it was a wonderful show I'm appreciative for the opportunity to go ahead and do it. But it was a level of stress too because it's cameras all in your face. I mean, the very first night that I got out, there's cameras in the bedroom with me and Ryan. Wow.

And it's freaking me out because it's like my eyes were even trying to adjust to the color because in prison, everything is so beige, so, you know, gray. It's colorless pretty much. and out in the real world there's so many vibrant colors so like I'm adjusting to seeing colors and the last thing I want to do is be on a camera while my husband

is trying to get groovy like right right right this is not what I want to be doing right now right right right but this is what's happening this is what's happening yeah oh my gosh

so what then happens I mean I mean the camera's left so I mean they didn't get any sort of intimate anything. We consummated our marriage that night upon release. I mean, there was like this whole thing called the D is fire. And it was, I feel terrible for even saying this.

But Ryan was like, please, whatever you do, don't embarrass me. Don't embarrass me. So I was like, I got you. I got you. Don't worry. No matter what it's like, I got you. You know. So this is your commentary on your first night together sexually.

Yeah. And you said that. I mean, I'm not saying it was terrible. Now I've had better. Okay. So relatively speaking. Relatively speaking. It was not.

It was mid. It was mid. It was mid as the kids say, yeah. So now I have to ask this is, was that, so you were how old at this point? 32. 32. You're 32. 32. What I find interesting is, is you were in your teens, you know, you, I could see that you were trying to, you know, go through puberty. Like so many of us, you want to have a romantic relationship, right? You want to explore sex. You attempted, were unsuccessful at consensual sex. Was that your first time having consensual?

consensual sex? Yes. At 32. Yes. So that experience, what is that experience like for you? It's hard because I wasn't comfortable in my own skin and I wasn't comfortable. I mean, I hadn't had a lot of therapy therapy, like one-on-one therapy, to work on the trauma that I had experience. So, you know, unfortunately, and I told Ryan this too.

I'm like, I'm, you know, I'm really sorry, but I just, you know, I feel like I have not gotten to a a point where I could enjoy myself. Yeah. Because I'm too busy thinking about the past. Yes. And I'm just not there yet. Yeah. Yeah.

And this makes sense, you know, to me, knowing that you were, you know, your ex, we'll call him your ex, that he's going to do life in prison, knowing that your mother is no longer here. And you played a role in her. in her no longer being here. How do you feel leaving prison early? Leaving prison early? I mean, I couldn't, I'm going to be honest, I couldn't think of anything other than my own, my own happiness at the time.

Okay, that's fair. That's fair. And can we acknowledge that you are a public figure? You know, you are a celebrity. I hate that word. Okay, you're a public figure. I'll go a public figure. You are well known, you are well recognized,

perhaps having one of the most recognizable childhoods of any, you know, American. How do you deal with the attention right when you get out? Because one thing that I was quite shocked at was how many people came to your support. It felt like, you know, if you look at your social media, for example, you were very quickly followed by millions of people. I mean, how does that feel? I was not expecting it, and I was not ready for it. When family and friends said, we're going to need to protect our girl because she doesn't know what she's coming out to. I was expecting hate

I was expecting you know I was going to be hated like Casey Anthony is hated but it was the opposite um like you said

I gained millions of followers which my brain couldn't even brought my head around what 9 million followers on TikTok and 9 million followers on Instagram even is um

and then going just to Walmart going to the grocery store going to a mall um having people run up to you and and want to take a selfie with you and things like this none of that i was prepared for and so yes it was flattering but at the same time i also had people that i have weird reactions too because it's like some people are like i would have did exactly what you did i'm just like please don't um i'm not trying to be out here advocating for murder. This is not how you become famous.

This is the result of what happens when tragedy meets tragedy again and again and again and the system fails and people get hurt. There's so many more stories that of childhood abuse. that don't get talked about. But the only ones that we want to recognize are the ones that a Lifetime series and a Netflix show, an HBO show, and worldwide attention is thrust upon. Why don't not take some of that spotlight and give it to all the victims? Because I'm not the face of Munchausen by proxy.

I never wanted to be, never claimed to be. This is my life. Y'all made me this. I didn't. Powerful. It's powerful. I could see that, that in particular, that this is an area that now, it's, you know, it's interesting, it's been given to you.

You didn't ask for this, but this, this, this platform, if you will, has, has been handed to you, you know, and I can see that you acknowledge that. So coming out of then prison, you have this attention, but you're still married. Then you have the television show, right? I'm also curious, though, about how you begin to adjust to life. Because from what I understand, this is your first time now living life in your 30s. Yeah. It's your first time walking down a street without...

having your mom. Yeah, or a prison guard. Or a prison guard. Yeah. This is your first time what, turning on a television. You can just be like, I would have watched this show, you know. Your first time interacting with people. Yeah.

You know, what was that like? It felt so freeing and everything was trial and error. Okay. Everything. Okay. You know, learning how to cook. learning how to do this and learning how to do that like at the time I got out I didn't know how to drive like I didn't have a driver's license I never drove a car before so this is all stuff I felt like I was

learning how to be going through a teen year a 20s and now landing in 30s and supposed to be exactly where I'm supposed to be and people watched me go through Many different fails, many different challenges. People have often said, like, tell me to act my age. I tell them, can you give me the 23 years that I was with my mom or the eight and a half years I was in prison and got to miss out on all this? So please do give me another 32 to catch up. Okay.

You know who? Yes. I'm making decisions on my own. and trying to figure out what's right. And I'm doing it in front of the world. Yes. Yes. So you feel the pressure.

Yes. Blame you all you want of making stupid life decisions that a teen would make. But you feel like that there's... There's nothing that I have done that would feel like someone could justify saying that I'm a bad person. Not in that way. But yet, do you hear that? You hear those statements? No, yeah, I hear those statements all the time.

And I mean, what are they? What are those statements? And who's saying them? I mean, it's just mostly online trolls. They might be username 7, 8, 9, 10. But you don't know if it's bots or if it's people with actual opinions, but opinions, everybody has one. And, you know, all that I have done in my life since out of prison is learn who I am.

And like I say, I'm not perfect, but whatever it is, whether it be I had my daughter out of wedlock, I divorced my ex-husband, they throw that in my face like I, that's a crime. And I'm like, if you would realize there are much, that's not. not the worst thing. Okay. Be thankful that the little stupid shit is just all I'm doing. Yes. Yes. Yes. So you decided to divorce Ryan. Was it in order to have a relationship with Ken? You knew you were going to have one or it was the chance at having a relationship with Ken? It was the chance. Okay. It was not a guaranteed. thing at first. Okay.

So, um, I started to drop those hints to Ryan. And then one night, um, it was actually on, it was actually on Valentine's Day of 2024. Okay. And I, I woke him up that day. And instead of being like, I love you, honey, I woke him up telling him how I had a dream about Ken and I missed Ken. Wow.

And so I was always very brutally honest. I was like, I wasn't meaning to hurt his feelings, but I'm kind of like, this is where I'm at with it. Can we have a conversation about it? Yes. So nothing was ever kept from him in the dark. He was not blindsided about how I felt about Ken. He knew. And so one night I had put a note by his bed, and I said, I'm so sorry, you know, here's the ring back.

So he came home, he saw that. He crumpled it up. through it, kind of cried or whatever in the room for a little bit while I posted up in this separate bedroom. And then an argument had happened. And in this argument, he's yelling at me and he is standing by the bedroom door. And he opens it up really quickly as I'm like, can we just have a conversation about this? And he opens it up a little too quickly and steps forward a little faster than I'm used to. And it triggered me.

Now, is he a violent person? No. Would he ever hurt me? I don't feel like he would. But in that moment, I felt triggered. And so I call my sister. And I'm like, Ryan and I are arguing, like, I felt like he came at me.

can you please come pick me up so my sister comes pick me up I spend a few days with her and then I go to my stepmom and dad's house and I file for divorce a family acquaintance unfortunately talked to the media and proceeded to tell

TMZ that Ryan threatened me that he was abusive I never said Ryan was abusive. I said he came at me and was in my face yelling, which he was. But is he an abuser? No. So I wanted to clarify that up. Like I never claimed Ryan was abusive.

Okay. Okay. You were only triggered. I was triggered. I had not had a lot of therapy. If any, at that point. Okay. And so I had not dealt with certain situations like yelling, arguments, stuff like that.

Again, I had been in prison. And my defense is like, okay, I'm going to leave the situation. Yes. I'm going to, if anything pops off that I don't like, I'm leaving. I didn't leave before, but I sure is fuck will now. Yes. Didn't you file a temporary, it was temporary, but a restraining order against Ryan? That was not, it was not a restraining order in that way.

Okay. So I, my lawyer, divorce attorney, handled everything. She took care of it all. I made no requests. She's like, we're going to do this, this, this, and this, okay? I didn't understand any of it. I was like, okay, whatever you feel is best is best. The restraining order pertained to our finances.

The restraining order basically said, you can't touch the money that's in the joint checking account without it being, for things like necessities. You can't go out and buy a car. So it just put a halt to our finances. Okay. And this makes sense to me as well because I would imagine, given the volume of television shows that were out about you

and the interest that there was probably a significant amount of money made in that period of time and you were married. So now it becomes this. Now it's our money. It's our, it's a joint asset. Yeah. So was that the main challenge with the divorce was then how do you split that and unravel that? We actually, my lawyer said that I could get 50, you know, half and a half.

Okay. So we half to and halved it. Whatever was in the joint checking at the time, we have to have to eat. Okay. Take a half. Even though, I mean, quite honestly, it seems like the money was generated because of you. I mean, there was probably only about $40,000 that was in that account at the time. Okay.

Because the show money came in like so many months. It didn't come in one chunk. Okay, okay. So by the time that all of the show money came in, I had already moved banks, had my own bank. Okay, fair. enough. So then you two split. The chance of me and Ken getting back together, I wasn't sure. It wasn't a for sure thing. I wanted to at least see him. We hadn't seen each other in four and a half five years.

So I wanted to see, am I, am I crazy or do, you know, do we still have this like spark? Yes. So he came to visit me at my parents' house. Comes. We meet up. We decide we're going to get a hotel in New Orleans and we're going to go do an airboat tour. We're going to go do a, you know, whole New Orleans day trip. Yes. And the level when I tell you, I don't know how to ever explain the love and happiness that I felt, I hope that everybody in the world gets to experience that feeling of happiness and just in love.

love everywhere. Like, it was amazing. And I knew, I just knew, I'm like, this, I'm in love. This is it. And I know what I have to do. Yes. And then you said then a month late. So then you're together then for a month.

Mm-hmm. And then a month after that. I got pregnant. We had got, we had got back together. Like the, we had had a weekend of having that New Orleans weekend. had a great time, he comes back a month later, and that's when I got pregnant. And then I find out a month later that I was pregnant. Wow.

Yeah. I like to show you a photo. Okay. Ready? Oh, boy. Okay. Now you're ready for this? Yeah.

What is happening in this photo? Who are you with? Yeah. So this is the day that my daughter was born. Okay. So this is Ken and this is our baby girl Aurora. All right. This photo was taken one year after I got out.

Really? She was born on December 28th of 2024. Okay. I got out December 28th of 2023. You could not have planned that. I mean, that is incredible. I did not know that it was one year. One year.

To the date. Yes. So this is your purpose. This is my purpose. To be a mommy. I think it is. I mean, I think it's healing. Of course, when I found out I was pregnant, a lot of people were like, you know, how do you feel becoming a mom, not having a great mom yourself?

And of course, it's like, I can say this and that in an interview thinking, okay, well, maybe this is how I might feel. but it wasn't until I had had her. She was two weeks old. I was rocking in the recliner. And I looked at her and there was just something that hit me. It felt like I was going through trauma all over again by thinking to myself, how can a parent ever hurt or cause any harm? to their child or any child.

And I just started to cry. And I held her close. I'm going to lose. Sorry. I'm sorry. I held her close. And I was like, I love you. I love you so much.

And mommy's never going to let anything happen to you. Because in my heart, I felt like I was. Hugging a baby me. I just felt like I wanted to love her. Like I wasn't. And I wanted to give her everything that I wasn't. And it just hurt and it felt good at the same time. I'm sorry.

No. I tell you what, you never have to apologize for allowing us all, you know, to see you. in your emotion, that's all you wanted. That's all you wanted as a little girl was to feel loved, was to feel safe. And isn't it so interesting what life gives you? Yeah. Right.

And now here you're in a moment where you're going to, you didn't receive it, but you're going to be able to give it. Yep. And it also gives, like, my dad a second chance, too, because, you know, my dad didn't get a chance to be around in my life as much as he wanted. And so now watching my dad be a part of her life, too, is also very healing, too. Yes. Yes. Look at that, that relationship with your father now.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. When you, Gypsy, think about the future, you know, the next chapter, right? What are your dreams? You know, there's my professional life and then there's my personal life. And my personal life, I want to have another child, get married, you know, by a house.

And then in their professional space, I personally am starting my own podcast. There you go. I love it. And so this podcast is going to be conversations, real conversations like this that you're having with me, about people who have gone through trauma, but also have been defined by the worst moments in their life. and it's a redemption of how do they get from there to where they want to be. It's a real one-on-one conversation, and it's not just celebrities. We're talking average people. We're talking celebrities.

We're talking anybody. Because everybody has had trauma. Everybody has had something happened to them. And no trauma is greater than anyone else's trauma. trauma is trauma and it is so therapeutic to talk about it with someone especially when that someone has gone through trauma themselves yes yes I'm with you I think more conversation needs to be had so that we can normalize the fact that trauma is an experience that we all go through and to your point is is that and then you can come out on the other side exactly right you can heal

And I think given the platform that's been thrusted upon you, that's probably one of the best ways to use it. Yeah, the best faces. Yeah. There is something I like to end on. There's a question that everyone gets. But before that, I have one last thing that I want to show you. Can you ready for this? Yeah.

All right. Get ready. Okay. Okay. Here it comes. All right. So now, this is my favorite photo of the entire batch. Okay.

I want you to tell me who's in this photo. Okay. Okay. And then I have a question for you about this photo. Ready? Look at you. Look at you. That's me. Yes. Do you know roughly how old you are in this? Oh, goodness. Maybe two? Okay. Yes. So this is young you. This is a very, very young you. All right. This is you. I'm sure you would consider to be. good times.

Okay. So what I'd love for you to do is tell me what you would like to tell her. I would tell her that she's loved and that life is going to be hard. Life is going to be really hard,

but do not give up because your daddy loves you. Your daddy loves you a lot. And so does Auntie Christy. And your brother and your sister, they love you very much. And someday, a little girl is going to love you. You're going to mean everything to her.

And everything you wanted in life is going to happen for you. But you're going to have to be strong. It's going to have to be very, very strong. she was she was you're making me cry no you know what what what i love uh what i have loved about it i'll hold on to that i love i think it's such a beautiful photo i love it uh very stylish by the way those overalls you know i wear overalls to this to this day yeah i've actually i think i have your entire outfit oh my goodness i think i have that What I have, I think, appreciated most from you in this conversation is I feel like there's been a sense of vulnerability and openness and light, right, to you in this conversation.

I've just, that I've loved, right? Your level of reflection will stay with me. This is going to be, this is hands down. That's one of the most memorable conversations that I've had. I've been doing this podcast for the last two years. You've exceeded my expectation in terms of your transparency in the story. You know, and I wish you all, all of the most amazing, amazing things at this life. Thank you.

Can, can, can give you. Thank you. Yeah. And most importantly is I wish you the ability to give yourself beyond grace but forgiveness. I'll work on it. Yes. Yeah. There is a final question that everyone gets.

And that question is this. Gypsy. You've had some phenomenal conversations. Yes. In your life. Yes. When you think about the most memorable conversation, who was it with and what did you learn? Would it be too cheesy to say you?

It wouldn't be. Okay, so this has to be a really good conversation. And all the times that I have done interviews, I have never had anyone really listened to me until now. And give me the freedom to share whatever I wanted to. So thank you for that. You're welcome. You're welcome. I wish you the best in your advocacy work.

There are millions of people who adore you, right? And now, having met you, I understand why. You're going to have to come on my podcast. Yeah. I'm there. We can unpack my trauma. Yay. I'm from New York. I have a lot of trauma. Okay. We look forward to it. We're going to talk.

We do need to talk. Gypsy. Rose Blanchard. I've never had a conversation like that. Ever. And I think this conversation is going to surprise. quite a large number of people. The constant theme to me is the desire for love. And it just goes to show how this is a core human need.

And you see the consequence of that. This is the reason why healing from trauma is so important. Because you can see what happens if you go through trauma, you see and behave differently. mental health needs to be paramount in terms of our responsibility as family members, friends, colleagues, mental health is everything. What's up, good people? If you've made it this far, let me tell you, I appreciate you.

You are truly part of this community and you like long episodes. But quite honestly, this doesn't go unnoticed. Now, if you haven't already, I want you to hit subscribe. It's right here. And if you've really enjoyed this conversation, I know. know you're going to love this one.