We Need To Talk with Paul C. Brunson - "I Just Want My Kid To Be Happy" We’re Talking Transgender Awareness

Episode Date: November 13, 2025

To mark Transgender Awareness Week, Paul sits down with Married At First Sight’s Ella Morgan and her dad Chris for an honest conversation about identity, acceptance and family. From navigating misunderstanding to rebuilding their relationship with love and empathy, they share what it means to live authentically and to stand by one another through change. This episode is about courage and connection - reminding us that everyone deserves to feel safe in who they are. We’re Talking: Transgender Awareness (00:00) Intro (00:44) How Paul and Ella Met (03:05) What Is 'Dead-Naming'? (04:56) Ella's Relationship History Before MAFS (07:08) Safety as a Trans Person (09:47) Ella's Dad Joins the Conversation (10:42) How Did Chris Find Out About Ella's True Identity? (14:34) Paul Shows Chris a Picture of Him and Ella from 2001 (16:57) How Chris Handled the Terminology After Learning Ella's True Identity (18:00) Public Reaction to Ella Presenting as a Woman (19:25) Ella's Experience with Gender Reassignment Surgery (20:48) Chris' Experience of Ella's Transition Surgery Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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You talking to me? Kayak, got that right. Hello and welcome to We're Talking. This week, we're opening up a conversation about identity, acceptance, and the power of being seen as we celebrate Transgender Awareness Week. You'll hear from my good friend Ella Morgan and her dad, Chris, who share their story with honesty and heart, from learning to understand one another to finding pride in living authentically. These are the conversations that remind us that everyone deserves to feel safe in who they are. This week, we're talking transgender awareness. You are the first transgender woman that I believe that I have ever been close to.

And I remember when I found out about you coming on to Married at First sight, UK, because that's where we met, is I remember how almost nervous I was in ensuring that I was you didn't want to say the wrong thing I get it I get it all the time didn't want to say the wrong thing didn't want to be offensive no but that's what I'm trying to change

Paul is that and I get that because I look at the activist Monroe I look up to so much Sean Faye Charlie Craggs but the reason I call myself an advocate rather than an activist is because once you say you're an activist

and you say one thing wrong I feel like you're completely cancelled and as a community who everyone wants to cancel So every day, look at what Donald Trump's doing, even today trying to ban trans people in the military. I don't want to be one of these, no disrespect to them, where everything I talk about, every conversation is trans. There are people that do that job and they're fantastic. I personally don't relate to that.

I learned more through watching our John Big Brother when I was younger because there was no one else to look at and inspire to. And she was just like me, just a woman who's trans, living her experience and doing it so openly. And people relate to that more I feel. No, no, you made us feel incredibly comfortable, right? And what I also loved is I loved the learning opportunity it gave me. And also what I noticed is that because of you, I began to become more aware of transgender, I would say challenges or across the world. I leaned into these topics because of you, right? Okay.

So I say all this because in this conversation, I am going to ask questions, questions. that I'm curious about. Yeah. Good. I'm glad. And what I love is that, you know, you're not going to say bad Paul. Yeah. But still check me, though.

Oh, I will. Oh, yeah. I didn't think I'll ask me, but I will. Still check me. Me, I get to check Paul everyone. You do. I want you to check me. Okay.

Please check me. And can we start with this? Is that so in my research for this, what I realized was the term dead naming. Yeah. Or what I found is I'd never heard of this, this term before. So with this term, this is referring to, well, if you could explain.

Okay, so dead naming is essentially where somebody refers to you as your old name that you were born at. So, for example, me, my name was Evan. For me, it was part of my healing because everything I do in life, I'm like, if it wasn't for Evan, I wouldn't be who I am and where I am now. So I actually talk about Evan as a third person. So Evan was always a girl in my eyes. and Ella is that person inside and out.

Does that make sense? But if someone dead name me, they'd say, you know, you're a man, you're a hare, and you're called Evan. But everyone knows my old name anyway. But so, and I know your old name, right? So if I refer to your old name, that's not dead name because I'm not saying that's who you are now. Yeah, exactly. Okay. It's usually when you do it in an aggressive way.

Gotcha. And yeah, that's when it doesn't, it's not comfortable for either part. actually. Okay. All right, fair. See, I'm, I'm learning already. Yeah. We just started. I'm learning. I feel more comfortable being in a space where if I acknowledge it and I talk about it, no one can then hurt me or upset with their words. Because the one thing someone would want to do if they didn't like me, it's come up to me and call me a he, call me a man and call me mild name, thinking that that would upset me or offend me. But actually, where I'm so at peace with that, it won't hurt me. It won't offend me. I'm the first to call myself this and that.

Interesting. But I think I'd do it as a lot. a bit of a coping mechanism. Yes. I've learned so much from you. Am I not mature now? You are very... So mature. I'm a 31 year old woman.

Yeah, I was going to say. And this is, I mean, you're looking very mature. Thank you. Can I say, yeah, looking good. No latex anywhere? No, well, it's not the ward show, so I'll leave that for the fasters. So now, also, with married at first sight, from what I understand, you had not been in a committed relationship before, or is that not the...

case. So going to, I and I've never spoken about this before either, when I was 20, that I didn't disclose my transition and we were seeing each other for about a month. So I don't call that a relationship. And also, I wasn't honest with him because I would never think of doing that now, whether I was in or out of the public eye. Now it's slightly different if I date somebody. But yeah, back then I was so, I didn't have any confidence. And so I just wanted to be liked for Ella. And I was like, if he knows about me, he's not going to want to be with me. So there was that lasted a month. Then I met somebody not long after, and we dated for about six months.

But again, he didn't know. The pattern that I was trying to do was get validation from dating people because I thought that would make me feel more of a woman. I look back at that, Ella, and I just think, girl, know you're worth, but I didn't have any worth then. What I hear you saying is that you were in casual relationships. Yes. But you were never in a long-term committed. relationship before maths. You said you didn't disclose. No. What didn't you? I didn't disclose that I was trans. Okay. Yeah. So, so, so here's my question is what is your opinion on that?

Now, I think it was wrong. Technically, I didn't lie. I didn't say, I, you know, I just said I'm a yellow. I never actually said, no, I'm not trans. That's a lie. But I think I just didn't feel comfortable or confident or secure enough in myself to put myself in a position where I fully disclose something so personal to me. When is the right time to tell someone you're trans? When you're dating someone, most men, and I've only ever dated cis straight men, most men that I've met aren't open and accepting to dating someone like me. So going into that, I was thinking, well, then I, if I tell them, they're going to judge me if I tell them too soon, they're never going to give me a chance. If I tell them too late, I'm classed as a liar. They'll never get

to know me for me or, you know, I've betrayed them. So there is no time scale. There's no right time to tell somebody such a personal thing. And you just mentioned one reason why you didn't want to disclose is because of safety. Yeah. And that's probably the key word is that as, and I don't always feel safe even now. Like when we did celevskar dating, I went into that first mixer being like, I don't know these people. Do they know who I am?

And it wasn't in a cocky, confident way. I was just thinking, I'd rather know. you know, no other person has gone on Seleyska Dating as a trans person and had to navigate this in their head. People know Helena. She didn't have to say I used to be a boy or I was born in a boy's body. And I had to be like, do these people know who I am? You know, are they going to be accepted to me? I don't want to be hurt or, like, insulted or beating up on national television. All these things were going through my head. And that's the way it was in life. I kept thinking, am I going to be raped? Is there going to be three men around the corner waiting to hurt me?

because this is a reality of being in the trans community as a trans person. So yeah, and there was one time where I went back to this guy's house. I must have been about 25 and I was single. And he brought his friend back and it was in Bristol where I'm from. And his friend knew about me, but this guy didn't. And we were in bed and things started to happen and he had a text. And he said, is there something you need to tell me? and I got my shit and I walked out as quick as I could.

Before I could get out, this glass went past me, smashed, and he was trying to throw these glasses at me whilst the other guy just sat and watched. And I was like, there's two massive grown men in their 30s. I'm going to get really badly beaten up. And somehow I managed to get out. And I think it was after that that I then started to be like, right, I'm going to put down with trans person because I never want to be in that situation again. My answer to your question is, if you feel uncomfortable, you should be open.

them. But from a safety point of view, I definitely feel safer with people knowing. Whether they're going to judge me and give me a chance or not, I don't really care at this point. I'm in a lucky position that they may know me anyway. So I don't have to tell them that conversation because it is an awful conversation to have. And from your perspective, though, you could see the fear of what happens if they don't know, right? Because I distinctly remember celibus go dating that first mixer. Because I remember you before or yeah, before we started filming asking the producers, do they know? Are these men aware? And I can also see the relief on your face when the producers are like, yeah, they know. And they're here for you. Yeah. Yeah. And how incredible that

must have felt as well. I think this might be the right time to bring your father in. Ah, okay. Exema is unpredictable, but you can flare less with ebbglis, a once-monthly treatment for moderate disappear eczema. After an initial four-month or longer dosing phase, about four and seven people taking ebbglis achieved itch relief and clear or almost clear skin at 16 weeks, and most of those people maintain skin that's still more clear at one year with monthly dosing. Ebglis, Librikizumab, LBKZ. A 250 milligram per 2 milliliter injection is a prescription medicine used to treat adults in children 12 years of age and older who weigh at least 88 pounds or 40 kilograms with moderate to severe eczema.

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Who knew your questionable music taste would be a money-making machine? Your style can make you cash. Start selling on Deepop, where Taste recognizes taste. Could we do that? Yeah, absolutely. Okay, because I think it's going to be fascinating to hear the story. There he is. It's a pleasure.

It's a pleasure. No, no, it isn't an honor. It's an honor. Come on. Have a seat. Come on. Like a little family day out we've had so far. Oh my gosh.

So here's a stat. Almost half of LGBT plus young adults. So 46% are estranged from at least one family member. So there you go. I mean, that is incredibly sad. Yeah. Right. So if we go back to.

that moment. Okay. I can't remember much about the conversation in the room. It was the moral of conversation in the room after when me and Drew seen you in the car in Weston. Did you know about me at that point now? No, not at all. Okay, so I was with Rosie, my friend Rosie,

and I was driving my car, and I was... Stopped it around about. I stopped it around about. And we came on the opposite side in a roundabout and sort of drove around, and I looked. And then there was Ella, dressed, never like I've ever seen him before. The wig and the makeup and the... It's so far.

And then I just looked in my side and went, What's that? And he said, yeah, that's Ella. Or that was Evan. That was it, right. And it's just like a, I don't know, just a funny... It was none of a feeling I've never felt before. Like shock, but just...

Just complete, like, didn't know what to say. Just didn't know what to say. Yeah. In that moment, Chris, I'm imagining, so you have no idea whatsoever about your child's true identity. Yeah. Right. And now you're at this roundabout and you look and you see for the first time.

It might as well have been on a billboard. That's the effect it had. You drive along and you see. I need to see it. You see it? Yeah. If you could describe those feelings, quite honestly, what were some of those feelings? Because when I look at this data and I see that 46% of LGBT plus young adults are estranged from at least one family member to me that sounds like the feeling on the part of one family member is disappointment, upset, you know, except.

So did you have any of those feelings? Only upset knowing, not knowing I could have been spoken to about it or I could have been an approach or I would have been fine. But to find out that way, it was more of a shock than sitting down and having a conversation like this. Okay, okay. And that was funny because from what I remember, and obviously our stories may differ, in my eyes, you didn't take it very well at the beginning. and I was more scared about telling you than I was telling mum's.

Well, it's not, when you say not take it well, it's not like you're coming home with a tattoo and you've kept it secret for six months. It's a little, there's something a bit more sort of, is that what you really want? Is it, are you like certain this is the sort of thing you want to do? It's that sort of, that was how it came to me. It was, you sure you're doing this, do you want this?

or is it just a phase or is it an experiment? Or is it, that's the sort of, that's how I felt really. Yeah, but that phase, we did have a lot of, like, rouse. Like, we didn't have the best relationship like we do now, didn't we? Like, we both, I maybe didn't deal with things very good. But initially when I came out and the first few months of me presenting as Ella, were difficult. Instantly, instantly you wanted us to just forget the past and just say, this is what I am now, and just get on with it. But it's not as easy as that for a parent.

We weren't ever involved in anything like this before. It was all new. It was like a bomb went off, basically. Yeah, I can imagine. You know, I think what would be helpful is, so I gave Ella this photo. So she gave us the image, but we printed this image. right and I have another image can I show you one other image that I have I want you to tell me who's in this image and what comes to mind when you see this

image so Chris you're looking good at that Chris you're looking good at this Chris all right so if you could describe this image what do you see what's happening well it's just no yeah just I don't know really just have your time right which is now but Chris I tell you this one this this this one's got you emotional yeah what what do you think's pulling at your heartstrings when you look at that photo uh I thought it was whatever that point especially then because I think a lot of people don't realize that was a different time yeah you know there wasn't a lot of there was there there still is not enough visibility uh around the transgender community today

but then it was almost non-existent so at That time, I don't know, what year is that roughly? That picture, that was 2001, that one. All right, 2001. Did you know what the term transgender was in 2001? No. No. No.

So you know, Chris, this is where you and I are very similar. Because you know when I fully got introduced to the transgender community. You know when that was? When I met Ella. Oh, was it? Yeah. So I was, I've been on the outside, you know? So I think we're very.

similar in that. And when initially, when I met Ella, I was, and even now I find myself almost tripping over certain words to not cross a line. How do you not offend but yet learn as a father? How do you do that? Just a simple thing of referring to Ella as she instead of he was hard at the beginning because for the best part of 18, like, sort of 17, 18 years, that's what you've always said. Yeah. And you've said he or, and to completely want to say something, but I think I better customize this to not offend in anyone.

The power of this conversation is for us to help to destroy a lot of the ignorance. Yeah. That exists, you know, in the world. It's like bullying, isn't it, at school? I mean, how kids do it at school now, I mean, that must be so brave. Yeah. Yeah. I couldn't have done it.

No, the same. The same, you know. Because I can imagine, you know, you even going to work. So you were working at the airport. Yeah. Right? You're going and you're now presenting as a woman. Yeah.

What's the reaction? Oh, God. Well, I started the job as presenting as Evan, so they all already seen what I looked like. I worked on checking. So I was a checking agent. There was protocols because of security and you have to go through security

and I have my name badge, so we had to change that and had to have a new picture. And, you know, they had to have talks of what toilets I would use. So all of these things had, I couldn't just come in one day. I had to actually tell them. And I was so nervous the day

I think I had a few days off And then I knew that maybe the Monday Whatever it was was the first day That I was going to be going back to work as Ella And it was yeah I don't know how I did it I was so nervous Because people had already heard That I was going to be coming in

You know different They were already prepared for it And I was told right you can use disabled toilet Not the girls And when you go through security You have to go if you beep to go up to then board the flights. If you beep, a male has to assert you in a private room.

So I knew I was having this special treatment. But everyone's reaction was mostly positive. Everyone was really nice to me. Some of the passengers would be rude. But I still don't know how I did it to the day. You know, that notion of passing, though, and then also you mentioned that there's a, you mentioned 40% of transgender women

go through with gender reassignment. So was that, what was the reason why you opted to do that? And why do the vast majority not? More than likely, most people aren't ever going to meet a trans person, especially with what's going on in the climate now. Everyone wants to keep quiet and keep their identity quiet because we don't want to have to face discrimination more so than we already do. So I think because society's view of trans people,

a lot of the time is just based on one person that they've seen on telly or that they know, they basically think that every trans woman has surgery. So a lot of people will ask me, have you had it done? Well, I talked about it so much on the show that I have a vagina that I don't think anyone needs to ask me now. But there's so many other types of trans people. We're not all the same, and we don't all share the same journey and story. So I don't know why a lot of trans women, you know, a lot of the time it's because they're scared of the surgery. It's a very dormanty and scary surgery.

My dad was with me when I had mine done, and it was horrendous, not just for me, but obviously for him. It shouldn't matter what's in between your legs. It doesn't define you. Your pull, like you are a man, but whether you have a penis or a vagina, I'm not going to see you any differently. Chris, you were there to support Ella through the procedure.

It was the first procedure I had out of everything. I had down below, then a year later, to my breast and then two, three years ago I had my face done. But my dad was with me for that first operation, I was 20. Two days of the 15. Yeah, not only 21. Yeah. Okay.

It was hard. It was brutal. Because a lot of people had said from when I did start to research, oh, you'll wake up and it will be like euphoric. Like you'll be like, I am a woman now. And because you put that pressure on yourself that once you've woken up, what? just because I've suddenly had, you know, a vagina done, I'm going to feel more of a woman.

And I couldn't get my head around it. So I thought, maybe that's how I'll feel. And I didn't, I didn't feel that. I just felt pain. Could even walk. I can walk. It was, it was graphic. It was awful. So the reality is, and this isn't the case for everyone if anyone is watching and obviously having it done or on the waitiness. Best thing I ever did, but I was so young and I hadn't prepared myself mentally for the pain and how life changing it was. and there was so much emphasis on you're going to wake up and feel like a woman. I already felt like a girl anyway.

I've always felt like a girl. Having that didn't really make me feel any different. So I was a bit let down. From it. I'm curious though. So Chris, you're with her the entire time. What was your experience as a parent going through this process? I think we got there the day before you had it done, didn't you?

So we just went there and just found a room and just, when i got some tea didn't wait and then it was a bit surreal really and then the next morning sort of said goodbye to you and you went down on the on the thing uh but then i knew as soon as i said goodbye there's no coming there's turning back it wasn't the case of oh i've changed your mind i want to go back as a boy i knew that was the final thing so i thought it could hardly get a hundred percent better or a hundred percent worse and obviously it's all good down but it time I thought if she wakes up and says I don't I've made a mistake it's too late it's too late but there was no telling you any different I mean we didn't try and talk you out of it

but we just said is it you sure that's what you want so yeah and I just yeah I just left her and went off and had some food and just walked back and they went back later and it was yeah she was just a white tight really completely wiped out it just couldn't even hardly speak well you could get out of bed could you but um yeah it was

that was when it hit me really I think it is and I knew that was only the start of it really it was not the like I said wake up with your bits done and then it's all plain sailing because it's not it's not but it's the start if that's what you want

it's a start it's a start it's a start but and What support is there for the parents? Well, we had none. We had none at all. This is something I want to fight for in terms of the government. We went to the doctors or a man who went to the doctors and asked,

and they said, well, I don't really got any information. The best thing I'd say is just go on the internet. So if I was setting up something now to help, say, transgender people or children or adults, whoever it is, it's the support for the people around them. because if that person who's transitioned hasn't got to support, it just means must be so hard. The person who's transitioning, if their family get the help they need,

they can see what they could be doing or what they should be doing or what shouldn't be doing, and that process could help them and to help everybody. Yes, yes. All over the board. I agree. Yes. So currently, though, you're saying that there's,

so you had no support. That's still the case. And that's still the case. I looked into this because it's one thing that I'd love to change is obviously NHS funding is being cut all of the time. And so with me, it is I got funded to my surgeries. I've got funded to my laser hair removal and my therapy. And there's some voice coaching. That was all for me.

There's no current funding to give therapy to family, spouses, partners, family members or siblings of trans people. This therapy is solely for them. And even though I used to try and get my mom and dad to come with me, so we could all, I guess, talk, it would only ever be me. They'd have to wait. You know what's clear is I can see that this is both a passion bubbling in both of your hearts is to not just talk about this,

but to ensure that the support is there for others going through this process. Understanding starts with listening and conversations. like this to remind us how powerful empathy can be. Thank you to Ella and Chris for sharing their story and helping us see what love and acceptance truly looks like. USAA knows dynamic duos can save the day, like superheroes and sidekicks or auto and home insurance. With USAA, you can bundle your auto and home and save up to 10%.

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