We Need To Talk with Paul C. Brunson - "I Was Afraid My Family Would Never Accept Me"

Episode Date: February 5, 2026

In honour of LGBT History Month, We’re Talking opens an honest and unfiltered conversation about sexuality, identity and the courage it takes to live truthfully. Bimini and Josh Cavallo share their experiences of coming out, confronting shame, and challenging the systems that silence queer voices, reflecting on what real allyship and self-acceptance look like today. We’re Talking LGBT History Month. (00:00) Intro (00:49) Bimini on Navigating Her Sexuality During Her Teens and Early Adulthood (09:36) How the Straight Community Can Be True Advocates for the Queer Community (13:21) Josh Talks to Paul About 'Wearing a Mask' and Coming Out to His Family Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Kayak gets my flight, hotel, and rental car right, so I can tune out travel advice that's just plain wrong. Bro, Skycoin, way better than points. Never fly during a Scorpio full moon. Just tell the manager you'll sue. Instant room upgrade. Stop taking bad travel advice. Start comparing hundreds of sites with kayak and get your trip right. Bad advice. You talking to me? Kayak, got that right.

Welcome to We're Talking. In honor of LGBT History Month, we're opening up a conversation about sexuality, identity, and the courage it takes to live as your true self. Joining us are two voices who have navigated that journey in the public eye, Bimini and Josh Cavallo. From coming out to confronting shame, this is an episode about self-discovery and authenticity. Today we're talking LGBT History Month. The beginning of the conversation, you mentioned that you were evolving your definition of sexual identity. Okay. So at 18, sexually, how did you identify?

I knew inherently that I was like more than just gay. Okay. But I was gay. Like I was very obviously gay. But like, I mean, definitely was feeding into like the fashion and everything in a way of the zeitgeist. And like, there was a TV show. I don't know if you've ever watched it, called The Only Way is Essex. I'm not sure if it's your cup of tea.

I have seen a few episodes. Yeah, so there was a lot of, there was a colour of their skin that was like quite prominent, which was orange. And that was also my colour of the skin. And I had red hair and it was just weird. Like if I looked back, it was weird. You look like Donald Trump? I looked like something.

I wouldn't go that far though. Not the Trump. But I was, yeah, it was, but like I was gay. I was gay, but I was also like, I don't know, not really fully knowing what I was. Okay. You know, like, I think if I look back and I was like, is that really what I wanted to look like? I don't know. Like it was something, but I bet it was good.

In terms of this whole, you know, sexual identity. Yes. One thing that I have now begun, and I say begun, I now understand, but I definitely didn't when I was over there, you know, when I was, that's me at 18, basically, you know. Fab. is that I view the world binary. It was, and, you know, and I didn't view the world, especially sexuality as a spectrum. Yes.

Whereas I look at sexuality today as a spectrum. How did you view it at that time? I remember, like, my mom, I would say to my mom, like, I'm not just a boy. I'm not just a girl. Like, I'm not, I don't know, but I think she maybe thought at the time it was me just trying to be a bit like, provocative or be a bit different or whatever. But I remember thinking like, no, I feel different, I think. Like, I don't feel like I'm necessarily one or the other.

I feel like I'm just, I'm me and I don't fit into the binary. I don't fit into the binary, but I didn't really know what the binary was at that point. So this is like 14 years ago. I would have kind of not had any idea what I was doing, but I was having sex with men. I had had sex with females as well. at that point, I had explored my sexuality. I wasn't always, like, confident in it. I think, like, I definitely would lubricate with alcohol.

I mean, still to this day, there's shame with queer sex or gay sex, you know. I grew up, like, after post kind of the AIDS, like, crisis that happened, and I would hear stuff about that if you have sex, you're going to get this. And like we didn't have the education. Like no one taught us in school that what had happened for AIDS and how it had changed and all of the pioneering medicine and the ways of treatment and things that we have available now because even though it affects everyone, it was predominantly seen as something that was for gay men, you know? Okay, yes.

So that was something I came up after that. And I can't even imagine like going through that, like being sexual during that period. Like it must have been so difficult. horrendous to not feel so much shame because of the stigma that society has done. But like we came from post that and like there was like an air of acceptance. Like oh, it's okay to be gay, blah, blah, even though the language that was used in kind of schools and college was like, oh, that's so gay. Like gay was used as a derogatory, you know.

Yes. So I would, I would say it. I'm not like, I would say it not just because it was, it was the language. That's interesting. Like not even, not even putting two and two together, you know, that that is a negative about my identity, my sexuality, or like my exploration of that. But yeah, I remember like my first sexual experience being horrendous

and it was like with a guy that was quite a lot older than me, to be honest, like for my age. And yeah, it didn't end well for your first time. And that was like, I mean, that put me off to begin with, to be honest. You know? It puts you off of what? Sex. I was afraid of it for a while.

I didn't know, I didn't know what it was meant to look like. Like I didn't know like, obviously, you had to sing porn and stuff at that point, but like porn is a certain image of like what sex is. I didn't always enjoy the like kind of sometimes the hookup seediness of the night out thing. Like meeting some random, like it was something that I struggled with. So I was a bit more of a party boy at the time and sex wasn't necessarily like a focus for me. just going out and get wasted was really was the focus this is a great myth for us to demystify and that is is you are not the exception you are the rule most people have low satisfaction sex in their first experience yeah and as a result then are turned off on it and it makes sense yeah you experience something for the first time you didn't have a good time you don't want to do it again that why would yeah exactly but i think that the the script that we're fed is you know you should want it again. Yeah. That's your fault. That's your issue. You're the problem. Yeah.

And I think it's important for us to say, no, this is what happens more often than not. So you are the rule then. You're not the exception. I'm short. Obviously before I put these shoes on, you know, a lot shorter. And I was kind of slimmer. And so therefore, within gay stereotypes which I was learning about and and hearing about people automatically assumed that I would take a certain position, you know? And I didn't know necessarily. I hadn't learned about what, how that works, what that is, like, seen it. But like, I kind of was automatically like put into a box or like put into it like an idea of what I had to be. And like I had to go for this type of guy. And like, I don't know, it was always a bit weird for me. It felt too rigid and like not right. All we ever

learned about was like putting a condom on a banana and male to female sex, you know, there was no nuance. There was no understanding of other people's gender identities. So much nuance is missed in education because, so therefore I think that's harmful when it comes to being, going into having sex because learning just about one type of sex is harmful for everyone else that doesn't experience that, you know? And I think it feeds into like the narrative that, everything else is wrong and this is how it should be. And I think that's linked with so much trauma that queer people have with sex. And it's not just gay sex.

It's sex for trans people. But like the male gaze has impacted how the entire world views sexuality. Like you grow up with like Disney and everything with a male and a female prince and a princess. And it's so stereotypical when it comes to gender. Yes. And then again, there's no nuance. like the damsel in distress is saved by the strong prince. Right.

And that's the example of masculinity. And femininity. And femininity is seen as the weaker. And like that's, that's an issue that affects, I think, every single person on the planet. For many years, I fell victim to the script, you know, to this narrative. I remember in New York in particular, and a lot of it, and this is, this will definitely get us into dangerous territory. But I will put this out is I think that, you know, this is where we're organizing. religion plays a strong role.

Yeah, totally. Right. And I distinctly remember the script that was handed to me was that if you are gay or if you are a part of the queer community, you are hypersexual. And not only are you hypersexual, but you are a sexual predator. Yeah. It's crazy to me that that's allowed, like those, and it's still to this day, it's been perpetuated now with trans people.

Like there's no truth to back up the evidence that a trans person, is going to be, is going to take away women's rights and is also a harm to other people. It's actually demonising an already marginalised group that just want equal riots. And I think we need to actually get to a resolution where there's a middle ground because people are being harmed. Like there's trans people that we're losing,

their lives are getting taken, their identities are being taken away, access to healthcare. They are being stripped away of basic dignity as human beings and not listen to. But it's also, it teeters on to, like, queer phobia, femphobia. It's all kind of linked under misogyny in a way. So how does the, you know, how does the straight community give true allyship to the queer community without, because, you know, true, without placating, you know, without just attending

pride and, you know, and that's it. How does the straight community give true allyship? I think it's just about, um, it's just about, um, it's. If you hear something that you know isn't right information, challenge it. Like, it might be uncomfortable, but it's only going to get worse, you know? Like, the way that language and the rhetoric has changed over the years has been very dark and it's insidious. We just need to be more open to each other and actually know that the common enemy is the patriarchal standards that are creating all of this, you know? And like it's not like a fuck the patriarchy thing in a way kind of is.

But like we can all coexist if we were to all just understand that that person has a different life experience to me. But that's okay. Yes. It's okay to be different. It's also okay. It's okay to not have an opinion on everything as well. And that's me just sat here after having opinions. But like it's okay to not have to say something on social media.

Or like social media is a big thing that needs to be to be not pleased, but like, There needs to be something done because I feel like the algorithms are just building more hate because we are kept into echo chambers. We don't see anything outside of our own thoughts and other people's thoughts. We're not challenged with things. The media want the polarization from both sides because then it keeps you looking at the real problems, like the state of the economy, the fact that people can't put food on their table, the fact that we have a homeless crisis, the fact that the world is in such a kind of really difficult time.

climate change happening, there's discussions about whether we can move to Mars, but instead of sorting those problems out, it's who's pissing in the bathroom is the main issue. And like, we need to be like, why are you so obsessive of what's going on in the toilet? Let people piss in peace. That is the Booney's running for Prime Minister, piss in peace. Piss in peace. I mean, they've been speaking about it for years. But these are facts. You know, there's signal and there's noise. And we oftentimes, we were distracted by the noise and then we lose track of the signal. And I think that's what they want, though, whoever they are. But you know what I mean?

I believe that people want the best for most people. Inherently. Yes. But I think the media plays against the idea of your community or your tribe because then it groups people so much. So then you are afraid of that person and you won't give milk to that person. and the next door neighbor, even though most religion is meant to say love their neighbor. You know, and I think that's something that we're all missing is just loving each other.

I mean, I completely agree. It is divide and conquer. And I think this is why these conversations are so important is because we're bringing nuance to the world. You know, the world typically moves off of fear. This is what we do. Yeah. And is if we feel threatened or we feel our families,

threatened or we feel our value system is threatened, then the objective is is to eliminate the threat, opposed to then reevaluate the values in the first place. Totally. Exema is unpredictable, but you can flare less with ebbglis, a once-monthly treatment for moderate to severe eczema. After an initial four-month or longer dosing phase, about four and ten people taking ebbglis achieved itch relief and clear or almost clear skin at 16 weeks, And most of those people maintain skin that's still more clear at one year with monthly dosing. Ebglis, Librikizumab, LBKZ. A 250 milligram per 2 milliliter injection is a prescription medicine used to treat adults and children 12 years of age and older who weigh at least 88 pounds or 40 kilograms with moderate to severe eczema.

Also called atopic dermatitis that is not well controlled with prescription therapies used on the skin or topicals or who cannot use topical therapies. Ebglis can be used with or without topical corticosteroids. Don't use if you're allergic to Epglis. Allergic reactions can occur that can be severe. Eye problems can occur. Tell your doctor if you have new or worsening eye problems. You should not receive a live vaccine when treated with ebbglis. Before starting, Ebbglis, tell your doctor if you have a parasitic infection.

Ask your doctor about ebbglis.com or call 1800 lilyrx or 1-800-545-9709. This episode is brought to you by Redfin. You're listening to a podcast, which means you're probably multitasking, maybe even scrolling home listings on Redfin, saving homes without expecting to get them. But Redfin isn't just built for Enlisting. endless browsing. It's built to help you find and own a home. With agents who close twice as many deals, when you find the one, you've got a real shot at getting it. Get started at redfin.com. Own the dream. So in your journey, in your coming out journey, did you talk to your parents

and family first or no? Absolutely not. And this is the whole point of living the double life. And it leads on to how I met my fiance. Okay. Is that I was on an app and I was not displaying my face. You can don't have to have a photo. You can be discreet. You don't have to. People that aren't out with their sexuality are allowed to access and message people

that have their dating profile, just like Tinder, just like anything. And I reached out to my current fiance and the whole point of me not living the life and hiding behind a mask is that he. thought I was fake. So he blocked me. And that for me was like, I can't even pursue what I want. And it's just something that I can't continue living a life that I have to hide away and be ashamed of. Why? Because you like holding a guy's hand because you have attraction to a male. It's laughable. But that is the scenario of so many millions of people around the world right now. And I'm so lucky to be in a position where I can be out and loud and proud in the UK and be who I want.

Unapologetic myself. But there's people around this world that can't afford to do that stuff. So how old were you when you reach out to him? I was, that's a good question. I think I was about 19. It was kind of an ego hit in the face where I explained to who I was, gave him my Instagram and said, this is me. I'm not out. this is my situation.

Please respect my thing, but I find you really attractive. And then it got followed up with gone. So he was removed from me. But then, which is such a bittersweet moment, when my announcement was, happened and took place. And I got a message from this person, who's my fiance, saying that he saw me on TV and he apologizes for thinking I was fake. Yes. And that he can't believe that he judged a book by its. cover and like it's just crazy right but but but so I'm putting myself in his shoes I would have

thought you were fake too right you know because one is you didn't have the photo right but also because you he was probably familiar maybe with you the athlete not as the individual and also I think that's a lot of trust that you placed in him strangers in a stranger yeah and so help me understand that right is you don't tell your parents, your brother, even your best friend, but you tell a stranger. That's right. Why? I think because it was, I had a thing when I first was doing this and my strategy was, how can I not get caught, right? And it was the fact that I would message people out in different towns, not in my town.

So if my fiancee lived in Perth, that was very far away from Melbourne, so it wouldn't track back to anyone that would know of someone and know of this. And you kind of become like a spy and you investigate. And it's really, really, really pathetic if you think about it. But this is what every, as I'm speaking right now, there would be someone doing this as well. And it's a sad reality of it because sometimes I wish I could tell that little Josh here, it's not that deep, mate. You can go and be whoever you want and go and tell your parents and go and tell your brother.

They're going to be there to give you the biggest hug. Yes. And it's all going to be okay. But you were thinking, though, that what, if someone found out that it would what jeopardize your football, jeopardize the relationship with your parents and your brother, you thought that. Absolutely. You think everything's at risk. You know, I researched so much about gay professional footballers.

Nothing came up. am I going to be the next Justin? Am I going to take my life because of what someone on the other side, the world is sitting on their couch, thinks of me? So that's the messaging that I have grown in these last four years and they've had this shell and like the things that do come my way is obscene and so disgusting people saying, I all things under the sun to get rid of my existence on this earth.

But you were already, you were already believing that could happen to you, right? Because I can imagine you're, I mean, you're still, you're playing, you're hearing what fans are saying. You are hearing probably what teammates are saying and alluding to. And you just don't want any of that coming your way, right? So you're trying to keep yourself safe. And so I can, it's interesting because for me, I can see other incidents of life where if you don't feel safe with the people around you, you need someone to talk to. You need someone to share that with.

So at what point, though, do you tell your family? It's crazy because I didn't even trust a therapist. That's someone that I was like, I was at school and I was like, I might go and talk to her. I can't do that. I can't tell anyone. No one needs to know. There's a slight chance that this person will tell my parents

or tell someone I knew or one of my friends at school. I feel like I was stuck in a world that wasn't built for me and didn't accept Josh where football and being LGBTQ plus is okay. And to see that in how it's evolved in the space of I'm still not welcomed in this community of football, but to see the impact I've had and people coming out and having representation in all different sports and seeing how I can really change someone's life, even if they're a primary school kid is quite life-changing. Yes, yes.

So, wow, you didn't feel safe enough to tell a therapist. No. It's crazy, right? Yeah, it's interesting because your therapist, you're supposed to have a private relationship with your therapist. So if you couldn't tell your therapist, you told, you know, people you didn't know, but who was the first in your family that you told?

I, after I received that award, I had off-season. and I was 20 and I had the Best Young Player Award. I remember going to my hometown in Melbourne and we had six weeks break and I said right in this six weeks I'm going to be who I want to be and I'm going to plan out what I'm going to do and it got to the last day of the holiday that I was having at home and I wrote a letter. Oh wow. And I wrote it to my mum, dad and my brother and I was going to put it underneath the couch and then drive to Adelaide, which is an eight-hour drive.

So I would tell them to open up the letter and read it when I'm long gone because I thought that would just not accept me for who I was and just that's it. I'm finished in this family. So I feel like that was the only safe space I could do it without being in trouble or frowned upon or told off. It was a really scary time for me because that was. was literally the first time in all these years, this mask was dropped. Yes. And also, I can't. I mean, my heart really just sunk because you slid that letter

thinking that you would not be accepted. So you probably thought that was the last time that you would be. I'll see them. You see them. Yeah. It's actually, it baffles me because that was my thinking. And it's difficult because to see their reaction and to see what's happened now and how much they've evolved is being absolutely incredible. But these are the things you do when you're at this point. You're so in your head. You're so locked and stuck. You don't want to open up to anyone about it.

It was tough for me because I just thought on a career aspect, I'm finished. That's it. I'm going to go and do other work and work in a different space because that's me hanging up my boots and I'm not allowed to be who I am. You are, yes. So then did you ultimately, you wrote the letter. Yeah.

Slid it under the couch. Yeah. I wrote it about four times. And I remember making a video and recording myself and talking to the camera and saying, this is it. This is Josh letting go. This is Josh finally putting his armor down and showing the real person who he is. And it's actually really sad because I didn't have the balls to do it in person to my mom and dad.

and that would have been such a lovely reaction to see and the joy. And that's something that I missed out and I'll never get back is seeing their reaction with it and seeing how much of a not of an issue it was. I think after the coming out with my family, they were so upset and angry that I had lived this life till 21 and not felt comfortable to speak to anyone in my family about it, whether that was my brother, whether that was my mum, whether that was my dad. How did you all reconcile that? Because I can imagine they, because what it sounds like is, is they read that letter

and they immediately accepted fullness of you. Absolutely. I think it took me by surprise because there wasn't much of a reaction. I thought literally, yes, my parents have raised me to 21 here and this is my time to say goodbye. and it's nuts to think that that's the way I programmed myself to think. But did they ever, did your family ever give you a reason to believe that you would not be accepted? I think it's the masculinity thing. There was times where I was younger and would be in the car and would drive past two guys holding hands.

And my dad would say something obnoxious out the window. not to them personally but loud enough that we can hear in the car and it wasn't anything offensive it was just something to joke about and to look at these guys and it wasn't just my father there was other people as well in my family that would trigger me and that would only push me so far deep back into who I was and not comfortable to be safe around them and I feel like growing up that's why I had such a detachment from my father um And that's why my grandfather for me was that person. Yes, yes.

So there was a fear that your father would not accept you at all. Absolutely, yeah. I remember I would go straight to my room when I got home. I wouldn't socialize with my parents. I wouldn't hang out with them. I'd lock myself in my room and I did that for years. And my parents all thought it was part of growing up being a teenager. You know, don't want to hang around with your parents.

And I would isolate myself a lot. So you end up becoming your only friend. And that's something that I really struggled with. And they understood why I did that when I came out. And right now to see that they're my biggest cheerleaders and supporters is absolutely insane. Yeah, yeah. But it sounds like then growing up, you know, you were quite lonely. I was very lonely.

Yeah. I didn't trust anyone. I didn't trust friends. The thing was I had really close friends. I was lying to them the whole time. So how can I call them? someone a close friend and be nice to them when I'm lying straight to their face. It is really hard to explain to the public what it's like in the shoes of someone that doesn't

feel like they have a place in society. That was what I was struggling with all my teenagehood and I almost feel like my growing up. I had to grow up very quickly and then forget to enjoy those years, which is the most funnest thing of growing up through high school and enjoying yourself. So I do feel like that got taken away from me and caused me to be a lot more mature of how I am today as a person. Yeah. You know, with so many people who have, whether they have been ostracized by society or family, or they have ostracized themselves, they typically become what's considered avoidant in their attachment. And normally people who are avoidant, you know,

what they become very successful in their careers because they begin to learn to the only person they can rely on is themselves you know and it's interesting I didn't know this about you but now I can begin to see how you probably took all of that energy you doubled down on football double down on becoming extraordinary football and you also have the motivation of your grandfather who had passed knowing that you're doing it for him as well Absolutely. I feel like that was the only space that I had could have a break, not talk to anyone, put my head down and just show my talent and ability and be judged on that. And it wasn't a fact of me. Yes, it was me also being isolating in the change room, not really socialising with anyone, avoiding showers, avoiding spaces where I felt uncomfortable or I'll be looked at in a certain way or people might think that I'm gay if I'm doing, a certain walk or a certain clothes that I wear.

So I channeled all that into being the best football I can possibly be. And it's basically to say, literally today I can look at it and say that was my big FU to all the haters that think that I am not good enough to be where I am today and in the position of Joshua Cavallo, the footballer. Yes. But then very quickly, you then become really an activist. You were forced into becoming an activist. Or should I say you accepted that?

You accepted the responsibility of it. Where was the, what was the moment that you went from thinking, I won't have a job to, I now have a responsibility? What was that moment? Was it a particular message? Was it the volume of messages? What was it? I think it was the volume of messages. And seeing that people need your help, you are their lifeline.

I think when I realized that people are using me as their lifeline to, like, breathe in the next day and to want to live another day and want to live another week, that's when I knew I have a responsibility now. I didn't go into this thinking that I would be an advocate in this space and to see the movement that this had across the world of an international level and see the people this reached in countries that I've never heard of before and them reaching out for support is not when I knew. I have a responsibility now.

here for Mint Mobile, the message for everyone paying big wireless way too much. Please, for the love of everything good in this world, stop. With Mint, you can get premium wireless for just $15 a month. Of course, if you enjoy overpaying, no judgments, but that's weird. Okay, one judgment. Anyway, give it a try at mintmobile.com slash switch. Up front payment of $45 for three-month plan, equivalent to $15 per month required. Intro rate first three months only, then full price plan options available.

Taxes and fees extra. See, full terms at mintmobile.com.