We Need To Talk with Paul C. Brunson - "I Was Minimising My Blackness" | We're Talking Black History Month

Episode Date: October 23, 2025

In honour of Black History Month, we sit down with Jordan Stevens, Jamelia, and Estelle who share their personal stories of navigating life as Black and mixed-race individuals in Britain. From embracing their cultural roots to overcoming challenges in predominantly white spaces, they discuss what it means to belong, to be seen, and to celebrate Blackness in all its diversity. Their stories remind us that Black history is not just a month - it’s an ongoing journey of resilience, pride and connection. We're Talking Black History (00:00) Intro(00:50) Jordan Shares His Experience of Being Mixed-Race in Brighton(03:58) Differences in Perspectives on Race Between the USA and UK(04:37) Jordan Discusses His Identity and Navigating Different Social Spaces(08:23) Jamelia’s Upbringing in Birmingham(09:11) The Significance of 1981 in UK History(10:07) Jamelia’s Parents and Their Rastafarian Beliefs(16:45) Love Better Tour Ad(17:48) Estelle’s Childhood in Hammersmith(20:10) The Importance of Estelle’s Grandmother to Her Family Get Your Tickets to Paul’s Love Better Tour! Bristol - ⁠https://g2ul0.app.link/mt5I2RKhrXb⁠ Cardiff - ⁠https://g2ul0.app.link/5mZIoBNhrXb⁠ Glasgow - ⁠https://g2ul0.app.link/FMk3N4PhrXb⁠ Birmingham - ⁠https://g2ul0.app.link/pJIj4XShrXb⁠ Manchester - ⁠https://g2ul0.app.link/4SQwKDXhrXb⁠ Brighton - ⁠https://g2ul0.app.link/BO71HSZhrXb⁠ London - ⁠https://g2ul0.app.link/gm6iB91hrXb Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hello and welcome to We're Talking. This week we're honoring Black History Month, a time to celebrate identity, culture, and heritage while reflecting on the stories that shape us. Today, we're hearing from Jordan Stevens, Jamilia, and Estelle, from navigating life as mixed race in Britain, to growing up in a tight-knit community,

to the influence of family and culture. These are honest, layered conversations about what it means to belong. to be seen and to celebrate blackness in all its diversity. So let's dive in. This week, we're talking Black History Month. So your mother is white? Yeah, mom's white, yeah.

Okay, so your father's black. Yeah. So by the time you're in Brighton, you're 10. So what is your impression of who you are when it comes to race? No. Then. Oh. Yeah, so

Yeah, the maddest thing about Brighton was that there's not that many black people When I was there, there wasn't that many black, brown I think, I think we call it BAME, their black. Oh, yeah, I remember it. It was six years ago it was Bame. Oh, really? Yeah, yeah.

Because I got here, I was like, Bame? Are you serious? I know. Are you serious? I know. It's kind of nuts. But all I remember was, assimilation. That's what I remember so vividly. I am, I've learned of myself, I'm naturally a sponge

anyway. I do, if I spend enough time with a person or a vibe, some part of me, admittedly does blend or I want to, I want to merge. Yeah. Okay. Again, even being mixed race as a, as an idea or as a feeling is bizarre because you don't look like either pair and you're caught between two cultures. The whole thing is a trip anyway. I remember, very much being the London boy in Brighton. And then after about two years, I just assimilated with a couple of the subcultures there. So I remember like I dyed my hair red when I was about 11

and then became like a grunge kid and I wanted to be a skater, you know. And I had like a couple of grunge mates. You like, even if I wore a football top, they'd be like, nah. You know? Like it's too chavvy. I think that's El Townie or whatever it was. I now in hindsight,

I feel I was trying to minimize the qualities of mine that would be associated of blackness in order to fit into social groups in Brighton. Which is you sad. I could talk to you for a week. About race. Yeah. On this particular topic. Yeah. In the United States,

there was a very famous court case called Plessy v. Ferguson. Have you heard about this? So Plessy v. Ferguson essentially stated what constituted a black person. This is the one drop day? Exactly. Which stated that if there was one drop, in essence, that was one-eighth of your heritage could be tracked back to someone black,

regardless of how you presented, regardless of the color of your skin, regardless of your hair, regardless you were black. So in the United States, growing up, I grew up in the 80s and the 90s, we didn't necessarily categorize as mixed race, black, white, it was you're black or you're not, right? And for the most part,

If you had that one, you're black. So for me, you, if you're Jordan, you're growing up in New York with me, you're black, right? Now, when I got here, I remember talking to someone on a show and I said, so are you, and I said, are you, are you, are you, it was a dating show. And I said, who you're interested in dating? And he said, you know, well, I'm mixed race. So I want so, I said, you know, I said, you're not mixed race. You're black. Wow.

He said, no, no, no. I'm mixed race. I said, no, my brother, you are black. You know what I mean? I hear it. I was like, friends would say the same. Yeah, I was like, you, you are black. And then he said, no, he pushed back again. And I said, mind blow. Yeah. And I realized that I'm in a different place. I need to sit back and listen. So I'm still trying to reconcile this in my mind. Yeah. So even now, what do you categorize yourself as? I would say I'm mixed race, just because I do think that there's quite a unique experience that comes with that. in the same way as there's a unique experience

that comes with being dark skin black. But to answer a few of the things you said at the same time, I guess, the first immediate thought I have is that I can't be white. This is what I find so funny. I couldn't, and I would never be, because even if I am genetically half white, there's not even a discussion

whether I'm white. Definitely not white, which is funny, because that, like, based on percentages, surely I could have a choice between the two but no that's not how it works and and there is a lineage of people whose features look like mine whose hair textures like mine and whose skins like mine that are treated unfairly because of that it's not like there's any point where a mixed race person was like ah you know which which side you want it was never that is you know if anything sometimes there are a reflection being mixed race in itself was a reflection of something having gone wrong before you know either a white woman has a text of a black man or a black woman that says a white man something something's gone right and this person and not exists you know but i also get i understand where people where people challenge these ideas yeah i do and but ultimately it comes down to i think the culture you feel most aligned to and i do push against monolithic ideas of what represents blackness

you know i don't like falling into spaces where something is seen as like unblack because it historically, it's not recognized as that. Right. Because then you fall into tricky territory, like rock music. People think rock music could be like white music. That's a preposterous idea when you look at the history of rock music or guitar music, you know? Yep. So it is tough.

It gets into tricky territory. But all I know is I was in a space, I was in a city that was predominantly white. I would just straight up experience things that would make me feel othered. And I need to disclaimer of this because I, This isn't like a poor me situation. This is very matter of fact. I actually, I've really been that affected by interpersonal racism because a lot of it, I think, is grounded in ignorance

and that person's own, just lack of experience with black people. I'm with you. So when I was a kid, you know, I remember the first time I was told on a football match to go back to my own country, I actually didn't understand what they're on. I wasn't upset. Do you know what I mean?

I wasn't. I actually was, was, I remember. going to one of the, you know, the manager being like, what, what, what, what country is he talking about? Like, what is my own country? Let me know, please. I would love to go to this country I own. Like, that would be fucking great.

I hear you. So, so, so those, but, but, but, you know, the feeling of otherness, that is something that I would have, that would have sat within me. And that would, and that will, that will have manifested itself in certain situations. And I certainly have a complex about my position in black spaces sometimes, much like I do in. in white spaces. Yeah. And that's,

to me, what is, what feels so sad when I talk to many people who are mixed race is this feeling of never feeling comfortable in white spaces,

never feeling comfortable in black spaces. So it's like, how do you even navigate life? I think for me, like coming from Brighton where I feel like I have tried to assimilate with a less,

black culture, then re-assimulating with the London culture that I was initially raised in, that was then confusing, you know? So you were born in, is it, Hansworth? Yeah. Well, I was actually, I was actually born like in the, literally in the centre of Birmingham. It used to be called Dudley Road Hospital and it's literally in the middle of Birmingham. But I spent most of my time in Hansworth after being born, Hansworth and Aston. Yeah, the hood.

So now 81 is, it was like, 81. Yeah. Okay, okay. So 81, but 81 pivotal year. Yes. In Birmingham in particular. Yeah. And in many cities around the UK.

Mm-hmm. So what's happening in 81? So what I know, just from historically, there were riots happening. Not necessarily at the time of my birth, but I remember that there was. were riots happening and it was it was like the police against the rasters in in particular so it was it was a time where and forgive me if I'm incorrect I'm not a historian but I know that it was a time where a lot of there was a lot of pressure on rastafarians to basically conform and and they were rebelling in an extreme way to well yeah to the point where they were having riots

even just kind of like racial, there was a lot of racial tension. Some of the stories that like, especially my dad has told me about that time, just like, you guys were having kids in the middle of it. But when I think back, my mom and my dad were very, very young when they had me. So, you know, I kind of get it, but I still grew up as a raster. I still, I was arrested until I was about 10. maybe yeah can we talk about this yeah because these are these stories I needed to know when we met over a year ago you know so first is for a lot of people who don't know what

rastafarian is yeah right they think it's just dreads yeah no you know what how would you define rastafarianism so as someone who lived in it I just I just say it's the most it's the most beautiful way of life it's a real community-based religion and we still follow the Bible but we I'd say that like the there's huge history connected to how the dreads are relevant so basically the warriors who were part of the I'm gonna I'm getting nervous about describing it in case I get it wrong but basically so highly Seleasi I he needed like an army and if you were in the army you committed to being in the army by not not manipulating your hair so allowing it to dread up.

And the hair caused dread in other people, which is how dreadlocks became the term for the hair. And it was not about the hair, but it was just the hair was a commitment to the cause. And it's, for me, what my experience, it was a beautiful religion that celebrated, you know, being black, celebrated nature and natural food and natural,

a natural way of life. There were lots of children. Lots of children. Very fertile. Yes, very, very fertile. And one of the things I remember being told from early doors is like, you know, we're all supposed to go forth and multiply. Like that is something that we're supposed to do.

We're supposed to have lots of children. And so that, you know, I've got four daughters now and I kind of, I still have a little feeling like, oh, I should have had more. children. Yeah, yeah. I feel like I'm supposed to. Especially because the whole religion, you know, the way that it treats children is like we are so cherished with all blessings. You know, no matter how we get here, who we're born to. I grew up with how I would describe it. Like we were all brothers and sisters. So I grew up with loads of brothers and sisters. some of them not even biologically connected to me,

but there were still my brothers, still my sisters. And their parents treated me like I was theirs, you know, and it's something that I carry through to my own life. Like every child I'll come across, in my heart, you're my child too, you know. And I really take that responsibility seriously. My impact on a child is so important to me. And so I want to be a blessing, you know.

Yeah, not only to my own children. It's just, yeah, and I love that. I definitely carry that forward from being born a Rastafarian. And even so I had my luck taken off when I was about 10 because I was going to a Catholic school. My mom wanted me to go into the Catholic school, but with the dread, it would let them know that I wasn't a Catholic. I don't know why they did that, but it was a thing that parents. And so, but I've never, I've never stopped having Rastafarianism in my heart. I wouldn't call myself a practicing Rasta, but it's definitely a religion that I, yeah, that's in my heart.

Yeah. You know, why this is a shared passion of ours is because it's a whole spiritual movement that I've been so fascinated by because of my Jamaican heritage. Yes, yes. So when I'm in Jamaica, I will visit Rasta communities. Yeah, yeah. And in terms of... How beautiful are they? Oh, my goodness.

It's like, you know, first is you talked about how they treat their children, right? They're called princes or princesses, right? The adults, kings or queens or empress, you know, and there's that level of respect. And then also what I noticed, too, is that in terms of science, mathematics, some of the most genius people I've ever met in terms of science are a rostas. So when you're having a conversation with Arasta, it's called reasoning. And these conversations can take hours. Like they're the most beautiful conversation, transformative conversations. And even as a child, I would love just like sitting down listening to the elders, like reasoning.

And you'd learn so much, as you said, about science, about the Earth, about, you know, astronomy. Like, you will learn every single day. Like, yeah. And then also, this is, I have to say, this is because so this photo when you walked in you were like those are the blue mountains right so these are the blue mountains my favorite place in the world yeah i was there recently okay and i'm walking up this trek right this land that has never there's never been a building on yeah and i'm walking with my two sons walking up the blue mountains and my son says oh my god dad there's a man standing

in the pathway he has a machete in one hand he had marijuana in the the other hand. He had no shirt on. He was the most cut up. He had like a 16 pack. Of course. Not a six-fied. He had a 16-pack. He walks over and I'm talking to him. This man is 70 years old. 70. 70. The most beautiful physique I've ever seen him. I was 70. I want to be this. Because health is wealth. Like they've, you know, so Rastafirians eat like an idol. an idle diet. So it's like you don't have sore. You don't have, you know, everything's from the land.

If you can grow your own, if you can grow like your own food, like you are, you are the richest man. Like you are the richest man. If you are, you know, you have land and you have crops and all of that, like that's, that's the life. Yes. Like that's success. Yes.

You know? So this is beautiful because this is the community you grew up in. Mm-hmm. Right. So this is how you entered the earth. Yes. Right. And clearly this has shaped you right throughout your life.

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Actual prices may vary, limited time offer. So where did you grow up? I grew up in Hammersmith. I was born and raised in Hammersmith. I grew up in West Ken. Yeah, I know that. I know that. My favorite theater is lyric. See? Okay, that's down the street from where I was born. Oh, really?

Yeah. And so that was like all our walking distance, schools there, lyric theaters there, Hammstrom Shopping Centers there, you know, that whole King Street. That was our stomping ground. That was where we were from. Yes. But my grandma had her house and my granddad when they first came here. And like maybe the 60s, early 60s.

Okay. Can I even ask you on that? Yeah. So your grandparents, is this from the Senegal East Side? Yeah, yeah. Now, all right, this is the nerd in me. Yeah. Why did they come to the UK?

Because I see that a lot of people who left Senegal would go to France. Yeah. So why the UK? So my granddad, I think, came for work. And then my grandma followed. It was like, you've got to come join your husband. And my mom came. She said, I think, in 72, she was 12.

And it was like the culture shock of culture shock. She came in a poncho. She still has it. She said she came in a poncho, the wall poncho, like to freezing London, like off the plane, like, oh, like crazy. Like, what in the world? we're walking into, you know, and it was like a whole new home. For what she tells me, it was tough.

Like, the thing wasn't easy. Like, there was a lot of everything you could think of from that era going on. The Teddy Boys, the racism, the, the, let's go be black people for no reason. All of that stuff happened. She could communicate so much with a look. Yes. She was the funniest, the loveliest. You know, sit there and just bust it up for all times.

But she had a moment where she would just look at you or look at you or look at you. at whoever in the room, you knew exactly what time it was without having to say it. And I know that came from having to be in scenarios where you couldn't really, you know, because of the era, you were a woman in the 50s and 60s, you had to be up under your husband. And then her husband was Muslim and she was Christian and there was a whole other changeover to. That's interesting. Yeah. That's interesting.

So would you say that your grandmother was definitely the most influential figure within your family? Yeah, very matriarchal family. She was definitely the one. The one? Yeah, she left us early middle of last year. That was tough, you know, that was tough, because I remember thinking, what am I going to do when she leaves? What I'm going to do?

I know now. Yes. But I remember the feeling. It was like, it was tough. It was a tough year. I'm sorry to hear that because that's recent for you. When you go back to you being a little girl, you think about your grandmother, right?

What values do you believe that she instilled in you? Oh, okay, so, and I didn't know this at the time, but I traced it back to her being a Libra. She's very much like, look good when you leave the house. Go back, go change. I think it was more for her, especially about like, you're never going to tell me my kids look less than, you know? And especially, again, you've got to think of the error, you know, like coming from Africa, you already looked at as like less than in, you know, those errors. And let's be truthful. Like they were not the nicest of black.

Oh, they were absolutely racist and all the things. One of the things she told me, I guess, later that everyone's always like, well, finally you got braces. I said because my nan told me to, none to do with you people. Everything was blowing up. American boy was out. She was like, look at you look so pretty. Go get these fixed.

Oh, wow. I said, okay. Only because she told you. Smoothly. And this is the pride in the sense of self, my parents and family. raise us with, they're like, you're good. Like, you don't allow other people to dictate what this is, you know, who and how this moves. Was it like this idea of if I show up correct, right, then I'll feel better about, I have more

confidence? It was some of that. And it was also like, why would you fight yourself? Like, why wouldn't you want to look your best? Right. You know, if there's a thing to help you look at best, go do it. Go do it. Yeah.

If it makes you feel good and it's not based on somebody else's things. stuff, go do it. Okay, all right, I love it. I love it. So it was a big householder. It's huge. All right. So how many brothers and sisters for you?

In my immediate, there are nine. And then I have cousins and nieces and nephews and there's so many of us. But my grandma had seven kids. And we're our own, I would say we're our football team. We're our own best friends. You know, we're our own gang crew, you know. Yeah, I can see how close-knit family was. And I think also for a lot of immigrants, right, that family was everything because family was your support system.

It was. And there's a reminder of where you came from, you know, especially if you're coming from places like Westinians in Africa. Seeing that person next to you who looks like you sounds like you feels like you understands intimately and without a shadow of a doubt what that look means, without having to explain it to anybody is a whole other, you know. It's invaluable, especially in the 80s, in the 70s and the 60s, you know, reestablishing yourself in another country. Yes, yes. I could see now the void, you know, that was put in your life when you're, when you're NAMBAS. Yeah. Yeah. Well, she sang me happy birthday.

It was the last time we saw each other on my phone. And I tell you, I'm bored for maybe half the day. It's maybe a year before she passed. Oh, crap right now. But there was a, like, I just think about. her entire experience. And I wanted more for her. I wanted to have more.

I wanted to see. But this was the journey she chose. She was brave, man. She was really brave. You know, you're into something. She was one of the ones, you know? And I think about that. And I think about the women that she came from.

And I think about my life. And I think about the fact that I am her boldest dream. I lived in a whole other country like she did. I built community like she did. Like my granny would go and fix curtains in people's houses when they first came over and lay carpet and lay floors for people that couldn't call the handyman because they weren't going to them because they was black. So my grandma knew how to do some things and she would go and help other women build their homes.

And I'm living the things that I know she saw for herself that she wasn't able to do. You know? And I just think to myself, that's a blessing. That's a wild blessing to even, you know? So I'm not quite happy about it. I'm just like every time I think about that, I think to myself, there's no version of me that I should ever not trust. There's no version of me that needs to play small.

There's no version of me that needs to entertain thoughts of mediocrity because she ain't going through all of that for me to do this. No. You know what? I get chills thinking about it. her because I think, when you say you are her wildest dream, it's almost like you're beyond her wildest dream. Yeah.

She would be like, how is she doing? Like, I broke my foot maybe a couple years ago. And she had Alzheimer's intervention back when she was leaving us. And my mama told her. And my mom was like, you know, she asks about your foot every other week. You know, they can't remember a short term. and she asked about your foot every other week. Like, how was your foot doing?

How's your back? How's everything working with your body? I was like, why does she know that? Why does she remember this? Like, why is this a thing? And it just is a thing in your mind. Like, don't forget who you are where you came from and that somebody loves you and will love you for eternity.

The spirit is with you, you know? So, yeah, I'm crying again. But that really is that. And so, like, not every decision is from that, but that's part of the, the confirmation of trusting myself. Yes. You know?

Yes. It's profound. That's going to stay with me. You know what it's going to stay with me too with what you just said is that it's with you forever. Yeah. Yeah. She never leaves me. Like, she'll pull up on me in a second.

Yes. These conversations remind us there's no single black experience. Every story adds to a rich collective tapestry. Thank you to Jordan, Jamelia, and Estelle for sharing their story. You can find the full episodes on We Need to Talk wherever you get your podcasts. Remember to celebrate your roots this month and every month. Keep reflecting, keep learning, keep talking.