We Need To Talk with Paul C. Brunson - “It’s An Epidemic!” Drag Race Star Bimini on The Dark Side of Drag, Addiction And Queer Shame

Episode Date: April 29, 2025

In this episode of We Need To Talk, Drag Race UK star Bimini shares the defining moments that shaped them - from losing their best friend in a tragic car accident to surviving the dark side of fame. Bimini opens up about battling shame and addiction, reflects on the highs and lows of their Drag Race journey, why they spoke out about the darker side of the industry, and how they rebuilt their life on their own terms. This is an empowering conversation about grief, identity, survival – and finding strength in living beyond the binary. Support charities:  Terrence Higgins Trust - https://g2ul0.app.link/2wfkTStrWSb Mermaids - https://g2ul0.app.link/g3id7izrWSb MIND - https://g2ul0.app.link/w5vNMYwowQb   We Need To Talk LIVE at Crossed Wires -  https://g2ul0.app.link/VOjDM0icWSb Follow me here: https://www.instagram.com/needtotalk  https://www.tiktok.com/@weneedtotalkpod  Support Bimini here: Instagram - https://g2ul0.app.link/GBxGzljXVSb TikTok - https://g2ul0.app.link/a8VFvilXVSb Pieces Podcast: https://g2ul0.app.link/BPCLZ4fXVSb  (0:00) Intro (1:57) Bimini Talks About Their Pronouns (5:05) Bimini and Great Yarmouth (6:07) Bimini's Childhood (10:00) What Was the Reaction to Bimini's Personality as a Child? (12:42) How Did Bimini Conform When They Were a Teenager? (14:26) Who Was Bimini's Support System as a Teenager? (16:29) Bimini's Friend Ellie and Their Experience of Her Tragic Death (23:01) How Did Bimini Identify Sexually at 18? (24:56) Shame and Societal Scripts Around Sexual Identity (32:58) Bimini's Experience of Drug Abuse (35:24) The Epidemic Facing The Queer Community (40:22) How Can LGBTQ+ Allies Provide Meaningful Support? (43:58) Tinder Ad (45:15) Crossed Wires Live Pod Ad (46:17) Bimini's Academic Credentials (46:53) Bimini's Thoughts on Drag as an Art Form and Way of Life (59:17) Bimini's First Drag Competition in 2017 (1:02:23) How Does the RuPaul's Drag Race Casting Process Work? (1:06:19) Bimini on Coming Out as Pansexual on RPDR and Thoughts on Gender Stereotypes (1:12:15) 'UK Hun?' (1:16:55) The Aftermath of Drag Race UK (1:30:02) Bimini's New Music (1:38:00) Most Memorable Conversation (1:43:10) Paul's Takeaways Sponsored by: Tinder: https://tinder.com/en-GB Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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You're casted. I didn't expect to get the call. I wasn't ready, but I just threw myself into it. Bimini, darling, have a seat. I came off the show and I had a wealth of opportunity. Five-star hotels, shooting magazine covers. My dream is coming true. It went sour with my manager.

I was like so alone, crying out for help. And that's when I first used drugs to numb how I was feeling. Abusing drugs is definitely a real big issue that's happening. Within the queer community, for example, like Kemsex. Yes. In the past decade, 1,000 deaths have been linked to chemsex-related causes. Just so sad. What I'm trying to learn now is allowing myself to feel low. But the drug use isn't part of my life. So when you think back to the lowest point, when was it?

I got a phone call. There's been a car accident. One has died. Everything just went numb. You've gone through these incredible challenges and you continue to fight. I hope for many things for you. But in particular, what I hope for, is your happiness, because I know that is what you want more than anything. It was quite hard to hear that. I don't know why. Quite hard to hear. Femone, who loves you?

It's Paul here. Before we dive in, I just want to say thank you for being here. If this show has meant something to you or taught you something new, I'd love for you to like and subscribe. This show only happens because of you. That one small click helps us grow, bring on amazing guests, and keep you. these honest conversations going. We've got some huge episodes coming and if you subscribe you'll be the first to know when they drop. Thank you. Should I refer to you?

As in like my pronouns. I'm happy with they. I'm happy with yeah I'd say they like but also just Bimini. Yeah you know and even for us to even touch on this is is this is this almost exhausting? to have to go through that kind of preamble with people? No, and I also understand that it's a very complex conversation, but like I think from my perspective, like language evolves and language changes. And actually we have always used they, them in their language, you know, in like a singular term. Like you'd say something, for example, like, where was so-and-so today?

oh, they were out playing football. Yes. And that's already using the term they without even knowing, like consciously. So I think like for some people, it's very, pronouns are very, very important. And I think that's something that I have definitely struggled with over the years was being so open about the non-binary identity, but then also actually realizing that then became the kind of complete opposite

of what I was feeling. It became its own category. I didn't want to then become part of another binary idea of what that is. So it's kind of like it was a really weird. weird one, but as long as you're not coming from a place of malintent, people can understand like you can mess up. It's good to just ask, I think. Yeah, yeah, that's fair.

And I appreciate that. And it's interesting because you said that your understanding has evolved. Totally has, yeah. And I want us to go through that journey with you. For sure, yeah. Because I believe it is amazing. Yeah, I mean, I think that's one of the most amazing things we can be in life is just be open to change and understand.

and evolving, you know, and like, trying to learn from it. And sometimes it forces you to pull out the lesson. That thing, that event could have been so challenging, so traumatic. But if you can then find the lesson, it is a win, you know. Yeah, and it can be hard. Everything has become so, it feels very serious at the minute and a very, like there's less fun, but there's also, you're seeing so much information constantly.

and we are desensitized to so much and we're all exhausted. Yes. So I think like we all as a species, I think our kind of collective consciousness hasn't evolved past where we are at technology. I think that's advanced way further than we have as humans, like in our kind of spiritual sense.

And that's why we're at kind of the place we're at right now. Well, let's dig into this journey that you've gone on to get to this place that you're at now. Yeah. Because I feel like you're probably in your most mature, self-aware state than you ever have been.

31. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I guess so. But it hasn't always been that way, right? No. So you were born, is it in, is it Yarmouth? It's Great Yarmouth. Great Yarmouth.

All right. I was looking at it on the map. I didn't realize. It's like right across from Amsterdam. almost. Yeah, I mean, there was going to be a port, but they stopped it, which I don't know why, but I think it would have been very good for Yarmus economy. Like easy, but like it was, I think that was generally what was meant to happen. They were building like an outer harbor because it is the closest port. And it's, it didn't happen, which is a shame because I feel like great Yarmouth has got his quirks and its beauty bits, but I think it's an old seaside town

that's kind of forgotten about a bit, you know? They're a bit like, left. because everyone can get like cheap holidays to Spain now. So like no one goes and like loves those areas. And I think they're quite deprived and there's like a lot of poverty. And like with poverty comes like a lot of crime. And like there's a lot of like, I don't know, it's it's quite sad to see it sometimes like in that sense. Because I had I had pleasant memories. You did.

Okay. So when you reflect back and you think about childhood, great Yarmouth, right? You just think about the area. Yeah. What was it like? I could, I can't really remember my first. house that my mum had. Like it was just me and my mum at that point. But then I think I start remembering she got a house in a place called Barra Castle. It's, it's kind of the countryside is, ish, I mean, it's an L shape, like there's two roads. Very small. But like, we were

opposite a Roman fort. It was like Budaqa and like a lot of history there. And it was, I found it really fascinating and interesting as a kid. And I remember just playing out all the time, you know, like always like playing, there was woods and stuff. Oh, playing. Yeah, having fun. With no phones. Yeah, exactly. No phones, like, just have to come home when it's in dark. He's getting dark for dinner. Like, it was a different time, you know. Totally different time.

I mean, I was in that zone, and I'm with you, you know. But you just said something that makes me think, hmm, okay, you said it was just you and your mom at that time. So I understand that your mother and your father, they were married and they divorced. Yes. How old were you? I don't actually, can't pinpoint the age, but I think I don't have any memories of them being together. My mom's influence is massive, and I think I, I have so much respect for how hard she worked, you know?

Like she was on her own, essentially, working full time. I was like with babysitters who were amazing, strong women, like always around strong women. Whether it was my nan or whether it was like Anne Kennedy was my babysitter and Laura. But they were like, they were amazing. They loved me, you know? Like it was really sweet. But yeah, my dad's influence wasn't as strong. But interestingly enough, like as I got older, me and him were very very.

very similar, even though he wasn't necessarily like the one, I wasn't there every day with him, you know, as a kid. Like, my mum would be like, you walk like your dad, you've got an ass like your dad, which at the time wasn't a compliment, but now I'm like, thank you. But like, it's interesting because it's like the nature versus nurture of it. Like, how much influence was it or how much is that part of my DNA that we were very similar? But I think like he just maybe wasn't ready at the time and that's okay. You know, the nature versus nurture, that whole discussion is fascinating to me.

Yeah. Because we oftentimes don't factor in how much the nature plays a role. Totally. And like, that's something that wasn't even really around. And like to walk like my dad. And like, I mean, I also had the hairline as well. But not now. I've got a new one.

But like, yeah, it was, it's funny. Nature does play a massive part into it. Yeah. And I was always like, my mum would always say I was very happy. Like I wasn't like a, I wasn't like a, I wasn't. I was quite like flamboyant. Okay. But like outwardly not knowing what that meant or like just being myself, you know,

like I was navigated and drawn towards more feminine things as opposed to playing football. Or like things that were like action men. Like I'd rather play with Barbies or like dance around to Britney Spears. Like it was, yeah, and my mum allowed that, which I think was quite important. I think the only thing that she struggled with, was other people's perceptions. Interesting. And worry of how they would perceive me

slash how they would react to me or if they would be, if they would harm me. And that's always been her biggest, biggest concern with everything that I've done or everything I've gone on to do. I think what your mother did was incredible. Your mother allowed you to be you.

Unrestricted. So many parents begin to see certain characteristics within children and then try to course correct. And that ends up. up just creating incredible harm. But your mother said, okay. Yeah. This is who you are?

This is who you're going to be, right? But you said that she feared the perception and the potential harm. So at what point do you begin to recognize that there is a perception of you? And what is that perception? Because my mom was supportive, but I wouldn't necessarily say everyone else in my family were. I was hearing the term gay before. I had any idea what sex was, you know? Like any idea what sexuality was.

I was not trying to be sexual when I'm dancing around to Britney Spears. I'm just having a good time. I'm like dressing up in the like pearl necklace and the like little purple velvet dress and the nursery. Like it's just having fun. But I was then hearing, oh, you can't let him do that. He's gay. And I remember thinking like, what is that?

Like it's, it was so confusing to me. But that's, I picked up on it quite young. Okay, how old do you think? I'd say like four or five. Oh, wow. I was like quite, as a kid, one of those like quite, what do they call them now? They'd say, the teachers would say gifted. Okay.

Gifted, which goes on to me neurodivergent, I think. Now, but like I was a kid that would like, yeah, I wasn't afraid to like just be myself. And I think like where other kids would be or like held back, I wasn't shy. Like I was very like just me, but I was also starting to understand that like, oh, maybe you shouldn't be like that. It's interesting that you also, you were aware of that at four and five. Yeah, I think it's a detriment as well, though. How so? Because it teeters on the edge of like, of why I think like over the years I've struggled with certain things in the sense of like, do I care what other people think about me?

I think humans innately do have a level of that, you know. There's only so much you could be like, I don't care, like, shut it out, because where are you taking that energy and what are we doing with it? And I haven't always dealt with it in the best way. And I think as a kid, I started taking it on quite early. And I think I remember, like, feeling it very young. Okay. Like judgment from other people, like, about how I am and what I was doing was wrong.

As a result of being told you were wrong, did you try to then conform? I think as a kid you just brush it off a bit quicker. Okay. But then as I'm starting getting towards puberty, I'd say, that's when I started to be like, okay, I know what I need to do to get by. I can take the banter, but as long as I'm in on the joke, I'm not the joke. I see. So that was like a big thing because I was also still inherently like a bit flamboyant and a bit not shy.

Like I had like an attitude. And I conformed in a way that I felt. would just get me through high school, basically. Okay. So in what ways did you conform? I wore some horrible track suits. No, in what ways did I conform? I'd like get involved in the banter and I just didn't like it. Like the banter was mean.

I like hung around with the straight boys and the girls because there was like a group of us. And I was obviously told I was gay. And at that time I was like struggling to understand. Not struggling to understand, but I think because I'd been told it so much, that made it harder for me. instead of allowing me to explore my identity and my sexuality, I was being told I was gay from the age of four. So I think I struggled with accepting now

or just being open about it. But I would just get involved in the banter with the boys. And I hated it. Like, looking back, it was hard. Like, it didn't make me feel good. But help me understand when you said you would get into the banter, are you saying that you would say what? I wouldn't really be the one to, I'd like just,

repeat stuff I don't know I wasn't like I wasn't myself wasn't happy and the boys would just take the piss of each other

all the time which I think is fine like to a level like a degree but that was it that was the only conversations football girls

and taking the piss of each other and I didn't want to do any of that what did you want to do um I always knew that I wanted to go

to London I always knew that I wanted something more than what I was going to get in great young I think. And that's no disrespect or shade to Great Yarmouth, but I just didn't feel like I fit in ever. And I feel like I struggled with that still now, you know, like the idea of fitting in, like,

I feel like maybe I'll never fit in all. And that's okay in a way. So that's like the path I'm on now, like where I'm at, is just trying to be happy. It sounds like you're saying you felt incredibly alone because you didn't feel like you fit in anywhere. Who did you have in your life as your support system. In my teens, I had a good group of friends that were like they were like a bit more, um, it wasn't the boys. It was like the girls. Like I was closer with the girls. Really. Um, and I had like a best friend called Ellie Tweed who's no longer here with us, but she was like my bestie. Like we were like, she got me and I didn't have to, I could just be myself. We were just silly. Like it was really fun and freeing having that. And we were.

I mean, we would get pissed together. Yeah. We'd smoke weed. Like it was, we experimented. We were teenagers. We were just having fun, you know. Like, it was a real good time. And like, she was, she was my support.

Like, she was my best friend. And, like, we discovered fashion and charity shops. And that was a real formative of time for me, you know. Like, I was reading, dazed and confused, which is now dazed. Reading that and just seeing culture and, like, learning about, like, the history of, like, club music and clubs and fashion. and I was like, this is, that's me. Like that's, and we were both, we were all, like, a little group.

We were, like, dressing weirder than other people, I guess. Like, we were a bit more provocative at that point. We were becoming a bit more outrageous and, like, known for that in a way. So you were almost finding your identity. Totally. Like, I was never one to be, like, a wallflower, which I sometimes wish I was, you know. Like, I wish I could have just sat back and not had to be involved. in not being popular but being part of something you know okay being part of the accepted group

like I didn't have to conform I wish from a younger age I had stood up and been like fuck you or whatever like but I didn't I just kind of shut my mouth but when I found Ellie and like our other friends as well like we were we just got it they we just got each other you know absolutely now now one thing is and stop me where you want to on this but I'd like to explore Ellie a bit. Yeah. And the reason why, and I'll tell you from a personal perspective is, is that whenever we go through traumatic events, what they do is they shift how we then view life and how we

experience life. And I know there was a traumatic event that you went through with, with Ellie. So I'm interested to know that event, but then now that you look back, how did that shift how you saw life? I mean, I can look back with such fond, amazing memories with Ellie. Like we were like best friends and we were, I don't know, we did everything together, you know. Like we were quite inseparable. And I think what the, the way it happened was just such a traumatic experience for everyone that was involved.

So we were going out for Halloween. and we were all dressed up. We went up to Norwich. There were seven of us. And we were sat in a car to come home. One of the driver was, she was going to drive. She hadn't been drinking, but there had been like,

like I believe there had been MDMA throughout the night at some point. Me and Ellie were sat in the front. And I don't know why, but I had been drinking. I got in a mood. And I got a taxi home. on my own. I don't know what happened. Like, I remember thinking, like, I've got to be up for college in the morning. Like, I'm going to go. So I left the situation and just got a taxi,

which I didn't even have the money for. Like, I don't know. It's paid for. I'd like no money. And everyone else stayed in the car. Everyone else stayed in the car. And then I got a phone call at 8 in the morning to say, is Ellie with you? And I said, no, why? And her mom said, there's been a car accident involving five girls. One has died. And it was just like, at that time, like, everything just went numb, you know? Like, everything went, like, I didn't know what the fuck I just heard. Like, what had happened?

Like, it was so crazy. And then we all went to the hospital. Like, my mum drove me. Like, we all went up and just waiting to hear, like, what had happened, you know? And, like, the accident was really severe. Like, we not only lost Ellie, but, like, Like one of the girls broke everybody in her face. Another girl broke her like neck back.

Like a lot of damage happened to people, you know. And I think we're all there. All the girls would still be like having living with that now obviously. And like we all we all have and like there was like prison involved with it. Like there was a lot of a lot that happened then. And it was just so sad because it was like three weeks before Ellie was turning 19. and we had always said we wanted to be 18 forever so she got to be 18 forever which is like

but she she was I don't know she was like a older spirit you know and she would see the best in the world the best in life and like I looked up to that massively basically the week before we were at our friends Riverhouse just partying like having a good time was great

and she randomly told me and another person, the songs she wanted at that funeral. Like, she told us, like, what she wanted to be played. And then the week later, like, it was just so many crazy things. It's like she knew, like, her time on this experience, her time on this earth was done. She had done everything she needed to do. And she was, I don't know, like, that's how I've always felt with it, you know,

like, in that sense. And I mean, it was, I'd say probably the most traumatic thing that's ever happened to me, going through that. She was one of your best friends. Yeah. She was my best friend, yeah. Yeah. I feel like I've not since then had a friendship that's the same.

That's profound. Yeah. Yeah. She was like the best person ever. Dr. Gourmeté, he sat right there in that chair. He's considered to be one of the world's foremost experts on trauma. He says something about trauma that I think we oftentimes don't give enough credit to, and that is, is that trauma is not only about what happens to you,

but it's events that should have happened or we think should have happened to us, how that reshapes, how we then view life. This is an event where you stepped out of this vehicle. Yeah, it's insane because on the way up, we're all in it, you know? Yeah. And so when you now reflect back, how did that event, all of it, how does it change then, how you begin to view life, or even experienced life differently at that age?

I felt very lucky. I felt very guilty. Did it give you any confidence to further deepen your identity and be bold with your identity? Totally, and she still does. Like her belief, like, the way she is about being, like, just, yeah, being happy, not giving a fuck

what anyone else thinks. Like, I think about her. her a lot and her kind of ideology of that when I'm struggling and when I have struggled. And I know that, like, I mean, I think about her every day, you know, like, she's still still do it. Yeah, massively. Like, she's, she had such an impact. And I think often, like, talk to her.

It's funny, even to this day recently, like, I've recently gone through a breakup and I'm thinking about her and thinking about how she would tell me to be. Wow. Like, she has such a, like, a strong, stronghold. Wow. Yeah. I think that's beautiful. You know, I lost my best friend a few years ago.

And what I find so interesting about losing him is that I speak and think more about him today than I did when he was walking around this earth. You don't have me? Well, that's the life lesson, isn't it? We take for granted what's happening right in that moment. Yes. And she would, hands down, be incredibly proud. Yeah. I mean, I hope she'd be here with me.

Oh, yeah. Well, she is, I mean She is, yeah. So the beginning of the conversation, you mentioned that you were evolving your definition of sexual identity. Mm-hmm. Okay, so at 18, sexually, how did you identify?

I knew inherently that I was like more than just gay. Okay. But I was gay. Like, I was very obviously gay. But like, I mean, definitely was feeding into like the fashion and everything in a way of the zes. zeitgeist and like there was a TV show I don't know if you've ever watched it called The

Only Way's Essex. I'm not sure if it's your cup of tea. I have seen a few episodes. Yeah. So there was a lot of them, there was a colour of their skin that was like quite prominent which was orange and that was also my colour of the skin and I had red hair and it's just weird. Like if I look back, it was weird.

You look like Donald Trump? I looked like something. I wouldn't go that far though. Not the Trump. But I was, yeah, it was, but like I was gay. I was gay, but I was also like, I don't know, not really fully knowing what I was. Okay. You know, like, I think if I look back and I was like, is that really what I want to look like?

I don't know. Like it was something. I bet it was good. This episode was recorded before the recent Supreme Court ruling on trans rights in the UK. The reason why I'm recording this is because I would have definitely asked Bimini a question. on this particular topic, and I know for sure Bimini has a lot to say on this subject. In terms of this whole, you know, sexual identity, yes.

One thing that I have now begun, and I say begun, I now understand, but I definitely didn't when I was over there, you know, when I was, that was, that's me at 18, basically, you know. Fab. Is, is that I viewed the world binary. It was, and, and, you know, and I didn't view the world, especially sexual, as a spectrum. Yes.

Whereas I look at sexuality today as a spectrum. How did you view it at that time? I remember, like, my mum, I would say to my mum, like, I'm not just a boy, I'm not just a girl. Like, I'm not, I don't know, but I think she maybe thought at the time it was me just trying to be a bit, like, provocative or a bit, like, be a bit different or whatever. But I remember thinking, like, no, I feel different, I think. Like, I don't feel like I'm necessarily.

one or the other. I feel like I'm just, I'm me and I don't fit into the binary. I don't fit into the binary, but I didn't really know what the binary was at that point. So this is like 14 years ago. I would have kind of not had any idea what was, what I was doing, but I was having sex with men. I had had sex with females as well at that point. I had explored my sexuality. I wasn't always confident in it. I think like I definitely, um, would lubricate with alcohol. I mean, still to this day, there's shame with,

with queer sex or gay sex, you know? I grew up, like, after post, kind of the AIDS, like, crisis that happened, and I would hear stuff about that if you have sex, you're going to get this. And, like, we didn't have the education. Like, no one taught us in school

that what had happened for AIDS and how it had changed and all of the pioneering medicine and the ways of treatment, and things that we have available now because even though it affects everyone it was predominantly seen as something that was for gay men, you know?

Okay, yes. So that was something I came up after that and I can't even imagine like going through that like being sexual during that period. Like it must have been so difficult and horrendous to not feel so much shame because of the stigma that society has done. But like we came from post that and like

there was like an air of acceptance. Like oh, it's okay to be gay. blahdy blah even though the language that was used in kind of schools and college was like oh that's so gay like gay was used as a derogatory you know yes so i would i would say it i'm not like i would say it not just because it was it was the language that's interesting like not even not even putting two and two together you know that that is a negative about my identity my sexuality or like my exploration of that um but yeah i remember like my first sexual experience being horrendous and it was like with a guy that was quite a lot old than me, to be honest, like for my age. And yeah, it didn't end well for your first time. And that was like, I mean, that put me off to begin with, to be honest. You know? It puts you off of what?

Sex. I was afraid of it for a while, I think. I didn't know, I didn't know what it was meant to look like. Like, I didn't know, like, obviously I had to sing porn and stuff at that point. But like, porn is a certain image of like what sex is. I didn't always enjoy the like, kind of sometimes the hookup seediness of the night out thing, like meeting some random, like it was something that I struggled with. So I was a bit more of a party boy at the time and sex wasn't necessarily like a focus for me. Just going out and get wasted was really.

Was the focus, this is a great myth for us to demystify and that is, you are not the exception. You are the rule. most people have low satisfaction sex in their first experience. Yeah. And as a result, then are turned off on it. And it makes sense. Yeah. You experienced something for the first time.

You didn't have a good time. You don't want to do it again. Yeah, exactly. But I think that the script that we're fed is, you know, you should want it again. Yeah. That's your fault. That's your issue. You're the problem.

Yeah. And I think it's important for us to say, no, this is what happens more often than not. So you are the rule then. You're not the exception. I am short, obviously before I put these shoes on, you know, a lot shorter. And I was kind of slimmer. And so therefore, within gay stereotypes, which I was learning about and hearing about, people automatically assumed that I would take a certain position, you know. And I didn't know necessarily.

I hadn't learned about what, how. how that works, what that is, like, seen it. But, like, I kind of was automatically, like, put into a box or, like, put into it, like, an idea of what I had to be. And, like, I had to go for this type of guy. And, like, I don't know, it was always a bit weird for me. It felt too rigid and, like, not right. All we ever learned about was, like, putting a condom on a banana

and male to female sex, you know? There was no nuance. There was no understanding of other people's gender identities. So much nuance is missed in education because, so therefore, I think that's harmful when it comes. comes to being, going into having sex because learning just about one type of sex is harmful for everyone else that doesn't experience that, you know? And I think it feeds into like the narrative that everything else is wrong and this is how

it should be. And I think that's linked with so much trauma that queer people have with sex. And it's not just gay sex. It's sex for trans people. But like the male gaze has impacted how the entire world views sexuality. Like you grow up with like Disney and everything with a male and a female prince and a princess. And it's so stereotypical when it comes to gender. Yes.

And then again, there's no nuance. Like the damsel in distress is saved by the strong prince. Right. And like that's the example of masculinity. And femininity. And femininity is seen as the weaker. And like that's that's an issue that affects. I think every single person on the planet.

For many years, I felt victim to the script, you know, to this narrative. I remember in New York in particular, and a lot of it, and this will definitely get a sent in dangerous territory, but I will put this out as I think that,

you know, this is where organized religion plays a strong role. Yeah, totally. Right. And I distinctly remember the script that was handed to me was that if you are gay or if you are part of the queer community,

you are hypersexual. And not only are you hypersexual, but you are a sexual predator. Yeah. It's crazy to me that that's allowed, like those, and it's still to this day, it's been perpetuated now with trans people. Like, there's no truth to back up the evidence

that a trans person is going to be, is going to take away women's rights and it's also a harm to other people. It's actually demonizing an already marginalized group that just want equal rights. And I think, we need to actually get to a resolution where there's a middle ground because people are being harmed. Like there's trans people that we're losing, their lives are getting taken, their identities are being taken away, access to healthcare.

They are being stripped away of basic dignity as human beings and not listened to. But it's also, it teeters onto like queer phobia, femphobia. It's all kind of linked under misogyny in a way. It is. It's all linked. And when you look at the result, it's disaster. You know, so we recently had Ella Morgan on. Love Ella. Right?

Transgender woman. And we looked at how in the transgender community, there's a much higher rate of suicidal ideation. Yeah. And taking of one's life and lower employment and higher alcohol and drug usage. And then you look throughout the queer community and then you realize, oh, my God, drug usage, alcoholism is rabid. Yeah. Why? Because of what we're talking about here. Because anytime that you have society further marginalizing or shunning you, you are then in pain. And you seek to self. Without another, maybe. Yes. Yes. And I want to get to this because in your story, you have some experience with this.

Totally. Right. And I would love to know at what point in your journey do you feel like you've gone for? recreational usage of, is it drugs and alcohol? Drugs and alcohol, I would mainly say it was drugs though. Drugs. Alcohol was never really like, yeah, I didn't like a hangover. Okay, okay. So at what point do you go from recreational usage of drugs to abusing drugs? If I look at my family history, in my, on my grandparents' side,

not my mum and dad, but like grandparents above, like three out of four have gone due to drug and alcohol-related problems, like issues. So I definitely know that there's like kind of some sort of 50% genetic. And then I guess the circumstances was I would like a good time. I was a fun person. Like I would be, we would go out and party and have a good time. It was fun at some points. Like it wasn't always bad.

But then I think I would enjoy myself. And there were points I think in my early 20s when, like the wouldn't want the party to stop so we'd keep going for a bit longer than we probably should and that's that was my first experience of like kicking the ass out of it and going take it a bit too far but then that continued a bit to the point where I stopped for many many years like I had a real big long break from uh abusing drugs up until kind of just after drag race okay so the drugs that you're abusing can we go through them what what specifically because because, yeah, I was doing some research on this, but specifically, do you recall what your drug? There was, I mean, throughout the years, I think it's, it's varied. Like, because I would also say, um, when I've spoken to my therapist about it, like, it's never just one drug.

Over the years, I mean, I've used kind of, like, lots of different drugs. Cocaine, ketamine, methadrone, which is quite prevalent in the gay community, GHB. after like, yeah, they'd be the ones that, like, have been problems. Okay. All right, so two of those that you just mentioned, and this is a term that I had not known

until I was researching for this conversation, is it chemsex? So chemsex is definitely a real big issue that's happening right now. Okay. Please explain this, because this is related to the drug usage. So I guess, like, it's a term that was kind of, I guess the first time I heard it would have been about 2014. Okay. And it was a term, again, linked to kind of gay men that have sex with men.

Right now, it's an epidemic that's happening massively. It's an epidemic. It's a crisis. I think there's a problem more so than ever before. I think this is a really important thing to talk about actually because, like, not necessarily saying that like, this is my experience. But I think as a human, a lot of people have used alcohol or drugs in a sexual way to, like, enhance or, like, make it more pleasurable, especially drinking. Like, that's so common, you know, and go to a bar, you pick up. Like, I've definitely experienced that.

But within the queer community, like we said, there's a lot of shame. We're seeing, like, I've recently seen the studies, like, the rise is crazy with the worst place in Europe for this crisis that's happening. The UK. London, London in particular. In the Europe. There's not enough being done about it. Like, I basically heard on the news this morning that a lady's alpaca got taken, which

is really sad, but there's also three gay men dying a month, you know, in London, and we're not hearing about it. No one's talking about it. So then specifically, what is chem sex? I mean, it's just having sex under the influence. Of any drug or specific drugs. It could be any drug, I think. I'm pretty sure it can. I think the, like, term was kind of just coined as just a, yeah, chem sex was like within the queer community. But it's, I mean, it's not just to the queer community. I think like it could be used in any, any term. Okay, that's fair. And then in terms of the more prevalent drugs used in chemsex, I see it's methamamine,

so crystal meth, GHB, right? Yeah. In particular. So when these drugs are being used during sex, but what you just said that I didn't see anywhere in the research is you linked it to the use is directly because of the shame. Right. So it comes to as well, we're not going out as much since the pandemic. COVID has been a big hit on the community in general.

Okay. Not just our community, be like everyone. And like no one's going out as much. Nightclubs are shutting down. Why is that? Well, people don't need to go out now to meet other people. They can just go on an app and hook up with someone. You can basically, if you wanted to, find a party at any time of the day.

I don't know. You can't walk down the road and feel comfortable. The right is rising at the minute. And with that comes things going underground a bit more. Yes. Like people are being scared to be more themselves. And I think there's a real, that's happening a lot more again. There's definitely shame with sex.

I think, like I'd still say I feel, not all the time, actually, but like I have felt shame over the years for being queer. So I think there's a definite rise in what's happening behind closed doors in retaliation with that, you know. And to your point, an epidemic with regard to what's happening. So to follow up with some of these stats, in the past decade, 1,000 deaths have been linked. to possible chemsex related causes.

2019 survey of 2,700 gay and bisexual men who used GHB 28% reported having been assaulted. I mean, it's just, and the numbers go on, you talked about three people dying per month from chemsex in London. Yeah, it's crazy. Three, so you're right, it's like the alpaca, I'm sorry about that.

Yeah. But there's three men dying every month in London. And it's getting worse, I think like it's, It's something that's not really been spoke about because of shame. Like there's so much around it. And like I over the years have been part of the community a lot in different ways. And I've seen firsthand like in clubbing spaces like the change of drugs have used, you know? Like clubs and drugs have always gone together.

But I think like the harder stuff like that are being used in those spaces and it's dangerous. And I think there's not enough harm reduction. there's not enough information out there. There's not enough people speaking about it to protect it. And I think the community, we need to come together and allow people to have the space to be open and know that there are spaces to go to, you know. We need more spaces that are sober. We need more spaces that are community driven, that aren't necessarily sex-orientated

or aren't necessarily just clubbing, you know? And my worry is that if we aren't able to kind of speak about it within the community first, it's going to become another moral panic and it's going to be used against the community. It feels right now really hostile. So how does the, you know, how does the straight community give true allyship to the queer community? Without, because, you know, true, without placating, you know, without just attending pride and, you know, and that's it. How does the straight community give true allyship?

I think it's just about, if you hear something that you know isn't right information, challenge it. Like, it might be uncomfortable, but it's only going to get worse, you know? Like, the way that language and the rhetoric has changed over the years has been very dark and it's insidious. We just need to be more open to each other and actually know that the common enemy is the patriarchal standards that are creating all of this, you know? And like it's not like a, oh, fuck the patriarchy thing, in a way, it kind of is. But like, we can all coexist if we were to all just understand that that person has a different life experience to me. But that's okay.

Yes. It's okay to be different. It's also okay. It's okay to not have an opinion on everything as well. And that's me just sat here after having opinions. But like, it's okay to not have to say something on social media. Or like social media is a big thing that needs to be, to be not pleased, but like there needs to be something done because I feel like the algorithms are just building more hate because we are kept into echo chambers. We don't see anything outside of our own thoughts and other people's thoughts.

We're not challenged with things. The media want the polarization from both sides because then it keeps you looking at the real problems, like the state of the economy. The fact that people can't put food on their table, the fact that we have a homeless crisis, the fact that. The world is in such a kind of really difficult time. We've got climate change happening. There's discussions about whether we can move to Mars. But instead of sorting those problems out, it's who's pissing in the bathroom is the main issue. And like, we need to be like, why are you so obsessive of what's going on in the toilet?

Let people piss in peace. That is the boonies running for Prime Minister, piss in peace. Piss in peace. I mean, they've been speaking about it for years. But these are facts. You know, there's signal and there's noise. And we oftentimes, we're distracted by the noise, and then we lose track of the signal.

And I think that's what they want, though, whoever they are. But you know what I mean? I believe that people want the best for most people. Inherently. Yes. But I think the media plays against the idea of your community or your tribe, because then it groups people so much.

So then you are afraid of that person and you won't give milk to that person the next door neighbor, even though most religion is meant to say love their neighbor. You know, and I think that's something that we're all missing is just loving each other. I mean, I completely agree. It is divide and conquer. And I think this is why these conversations are so important is because we're bringing nuance to the world. You know, the world typically moves off of fear. This is what we do. Yeah. And is if we feel threatened or we feel our family's threatened or we feel our value system is threatened, then the objective is to eliminate the threat, opposed to then reevaluate the values in the first place.

Totally. I was talking with your show sponsored Tinder and they wanted to know if you've ever been on a date that ended up in an unexpected way. Do you have anything like that? Oh, absolutely. Endless, endless stories. I mean, one in particular is that when Jill and I were dating, we went to a slam poetry competition, which I will say I knew nothing about slam poetry. And that's when I learned that you snap your fingers, right, when you applaud. I specifically went there because I wanted to impress Jill so that I can get a little, I'll say bonus afterwards, you know.

But what I learned through one of the poets is that we are all artists. The poet specifically said, we are all artists. And that triggered something in me. It made me click to the point. where I realized that I wanted to create. I wanted to figure out how to do that. So afterwards, we went out to eat Jill and I, and we started talking about creating art together.

And I learned from that date that, you know, the date isn't just about the other person. It's not about your physical pleasure. It's not about their physical pleasure. It's about what you can learn about life, about yourself. It was an unexpected outcome from a date. So wherever a date may lead, it starts with a swipe.

That's why you need to download Tinder. Are you ready? That's probably too much. Let me see. How about everyone? Everyone. Oh, my God. Sheffield.

Chef. Scott, how do you say this? Is it Shepfield? Chef. Sheffield. At least this isn't life, right? Well, no, but that's about the change, isn't it? So we are going to do, we need to talk,

live for the first time. The magic is in the conversation, so we'll have a very special guest. You know what's probably most cool about this, is this will be the first time that the we need to talk community will come together in person. You know, I'm curious to see,

what does everyone look like? What do they smell like? Sheffield, July 5th, at the Crucible Theater. So to get tickets, very simple, it's crossedwires.com. It's very important to buy tickets quickly because they will go fast.

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Curious, at university, what did you study? I studied journalism. I studied journalism, but I also went on to do a master's at Goldsmiths in human rights. Did you? Look at that. Okay. And then I got an honorary fellowship from Goldsmithsmith for conversations around gender, which was amazing. Look at that.

These are facts. I don't think people know. Yeah. So at that point, what was your... your career trajectory? What did you want to do? I was very, I was very politically engaged, but it was at a time when Corbyn was, Jeremy Corbyn was, he'd just become the Labour leader. It was such a, like, it's such an energetic time. I would, like, write for some, like, left-wing newspapers, and I'd, like, do, like, certain pieces where I'd, like, go to, like, I was in Calais for a bit and, like, to see what was going on, but then I also felt like, I don't like, I don't

like this, what I'm doing here. I'm like going to write an article about this fucking disaster that's happening while I'm going to get to go home and like go to, well, these people, do you know what I mean? I felt very like, I don't know if this is right for me. Like I don't know if this is like this kind of idea of me being an investigative journalist. It didn't sit right morally in a way. So I then decided to put a wig on my head. as you do, you know, I should do.

Yeah, I'm going to think, I should do this. Yeah, it's like, because I'm questioning what, what am I going to do with my life? Maybe this is what I should do. There you go, do it. I don't wake on my head. I entered a drag, like, a competition at the glory back in 2017. So if there's one going, you should do it.

Was that 2017? Was that the lip sync? Was Liping 1000? I watched that. Did you? I'm, Bimini. I've watched everything of yours. Can I say

this all connects now Yeah Because if I recall When you were doing that 2017 That entire When you walked on stage The entire first couple minutes

Was political Yeah I mean I've always tried to bring that Into my My drag in a way Yes In a way And I think that was

That for me That was That was drag Like that was Having something to say On stage Like I'd never done it before You know

I was always A bit of a show post when I was younger. Like, I stopped, I would dance, but I stopped dancing like 13. Again, pressures of being younger. I stopped that, which I wish I didn't. But I loved performing. I loved dancing.

I wasn't always told that I was creative because I was shit at art. I was shit at draw it. So I was told in school, oh, you're not very good. So even though I loved music and fashion and all of these things, I never really had access to that. So this was quite a new world to me. But I there was something in me that was like you need to do this you can do this like there was a belief But where is it I mean because okay so the I think drag in itself is an area that I'm fascinated by

Because how long have you got because we can keep going Yeah let me get we here take my water I've been had this take this water Okay, thank you very much you got it because so the reason why I'm so fascinating is because I thought drag was a new concept. But I didn't realize that this is, I mean, from what I see is since 16th, 17th century. Oh, yeah. You know, you had in Shakespearean theater, men playing the role of women. Women weren't allowed to play the theater, were they? Not allowed to play, patriarchy in full effect. And it was, was it literally the robes that were dragging along the ground? And this is where drag. Drag, yeah, yeah.

And I think it was like drag and dressed as girl. Oh, dressed as girl. But then that's, I don't know where the R-Way. I swear, that's one of my granddad's told me. Okay. It might not be right. I mean, I don't know why he'd know. You never know?

You might know. Yeah, they love him. I mean, he's very supportive of me now. Like, he's come to a lot of my things. But even, so, like, when do you first become aware of drag? I will, well, first being aware of drag was when I was. younger. First,

memory was walking through Soho with my mum and my stepdad. Okay. So, Ray,

and my mum and I remember being told to look for the Adam's apple. Yeah, my mum said it, I know.

Look for the, like, they're like, she was like they'd be very glamorous and tall, but look for the Adams apple.

That's how you'll tell. Okay. So that was my first, like, thinking of it. And I remember, see, and being like,

oh, wow, like very confused. But in like, not a weird way, not like, oh, confused and a, like, oh, that's cool. Okay.

Like, that's interesting. Like, why, what is this? You know, like, and then also, I'd say, so that was that one. And then Lily Savage was an iconic drag queen from England, from the UK, funny as anything, rough as nails, like comedy gold. And they were mainstream, you know? But what was drag?

Because this is the part that confused me too, is drag. the dressing and performance or is... It's definitely... I mean, it's definitely changed, I think, over the time. Over time, I think drag used to be very just... Like, very underground, very like, wink-wink, nudge. Like, in the UK and the US, I think they're very different. Interesting.

So, US has a lot more pageant, which is, like, the idea of, like, in drag and drag queen sense, looking like a woman. like the female illusion whereas in the UK it was less about the polish less about the perfection

more about the humour more about the fun more about the message like more about what you were saying it was not necessarily about the whole like trying to look like a woman and I still feed into that narrative like I my drag if it is if people would still call it drag

I don't know I call it as me you know like it's an extension of me I love fashion and it's a way to utilize my identity in different ways, you know. But I don't necessarily, I don't tuck, I don't pad, I don't do anything to kind of change my body to look like a female body. Because I firstly think everyone's body's different. So we shouldn't be like feeding into like one particular stereotype of what that shape is. And two, I'm not trying to be a woman. I'm just trying to be me.

knows what I've got between my legs and everyone knows like so I'm not trying to do I mean like sure not that I'm like having it on show but I'm like I choose not to do those things like the things like padding and putting boobs on and like I've done it in the past but now I'm like no this is me so that's what drag is to me okay and drag I think is just drag I think is your heightened version or like your most um whether it's masculine or feminine because drag can be drag kings too you know like there's not just drag queens, like there's a spectrum of drag again. It's a performance. It's an art, you know.

And so when you decided that this is an art that you wanted to go deeper into, it was about expression. Totally about gender expression, yeah. Okay. And it was tapping into a truer sense of identity as well. It was exploring and understanding that the binary doesn't exist. Like the binary exists, but you can live beyond the binary and play with, the binary and have fun with the binary, you know?

Yes. And like it was, East London drag is to me like it's the top tier. Like it's like the most kind of creative, ruckus, silly drag. And I came from like incredible performers and artists like Johnny Wu and John Sizzle who owned the glory. They now own the divine. They are pioneers in like the field. Like they are legendary.

And it's, it's a space to me. allow yourself not to be so serious? And I think that's the best style of drag is if and I don't do it as much now. Like I don't do standing on stage performing to an audience in the way that I used to or

but like if a drag drag artist can host the room and has you in the palm of their hand, they can say anything and you know every single person in that room is in a safe space I don't know I'm holding a mic but everyone's in a safe space and they're allowed to come in on the

the journey and it's meant to take you out of the world that's happening, whether it's taking the piss out of the world that's happening, but in those spaces it's okay to be yourself. Yes. And that's what is so important about those spaces. And losing those spaces is terrifying because I feel like they were so formative for me. They're so formative for a lot of people. And like I think the idea of like the demonisation of drag and what that is is again,

it's a threat to the patriarchal ideals of what gender and the binary is. because we play around with it. Yes. We use it as performance, you know, because we do every day. But do you feel as if there is a threat to drag today? Because at least from, maybe it's because I've opened my mind, you know, more is that I feel like,

like, I feel like, wow, my God, drags everywhere. Like, it's everywhere. I'm going to events. You know, there's a drag queen hosting the event. Yeah. And I feel, you know, I've gone to drag shows, you know, so it's one of those, you know, you see obviously drag race on TV.

me, it's like, which is incredibly popular. So to me, it feels like the popularity has increased, but do you feel like there's, has the popularity increased or no? And then where's the demonization coming from? So I think two points here. I think the first one is, I feel like it has peaked and it's been going back down. And I think that has, that is also in response to what's been happening with the, the pendulum swinging back to the right and like the conversation is getting a lot more conservative.

and the approach to views and ideologies being restricted and conversations around gender and trans people is becoming so more toxic. And people can't actually differentiate that drag is a performance. And like you can be trans and do drag, but it's not the same thing. They are two completely different things, you know? And with that, I think just queerness in general

is being kind of seen, just being ushered in a different way. I've definitely noticed, I think last year at Pride, there was like 47% less brands than the year before. And this is what the big problem where we always talk about like the pink washing of, or the pink pound. Like, are you supporting us or are you just profiting off us at this time? And are you going to be there when it gets hard? And it's getting harder.

You know, spaces, we're losing spaces. We're losing performers. We're losing artists. We're losing people that are struggling because of the weight of the world at the minute. it and how toxic it's become. And that's why spaces and prides are so important. And that's when you go back to your point about being an ally, that's what is so important.

Like showing up now when it's getting harder, you know? Okay. I think that to me is the main thing. But I say about the popularization of drag, we have definitely seen. I've had amazing opportunities. Like, I was in vogue. Like, what the hell? Like, that's crazy as a queer working class kid, as a drag artist to get to go into

those spaces. A lot of things I've got to do is mind-blowing. But I'm worried that now that there's a lot more drag and there's a lot less opportunities happening now because I think people are, brands are too scared, conversations on TV turn toxic more so than I've seen in many, many years. There were drag artists that were on things over Christmas and mainstream stuff.

And the hate online was volatile, you know, and it wasn't necessarily like that five years ago. So I think we're in a weird time where, There has been a shift in in people's either consciousness about what drag is or about queerness in general or they never really got it in the first place or understood it and they've found other people that also don't and that has bred more hate. Okay. With the algorithms online and social media.

So I think there's a lot with it. But I mean, drag will always exist. Like we're not meant to be mainstream, I don't think. Like drag is meant to be a bit underground and cheeky. You know, and that's when it's the best, when it's raw. and real. So drag will forever go on. But I feel like maybe we might have seen the

peak of for now anyway. Okay. That's interesting. That's interesting. So if we go back to that competition that I saw you in. Yes. So that's at the glory. This was your first. Yeah. This is your first drag competition. At this

I pissed on Donald Trump in my performance. Yeah. Not really. I saw it because that was the first Donald Trump. Yes. It was the first time around. First time around. Yeah. First time around. Yeah. Look at that. Who would have thought? Yeah. What happened? So that performance, I'm curious about your lifestyle though at this point. No drugs? No, no drugs. So you've quit? I wasn't fully sober, but I was not using drugs, yeah. Okay, so you're not using drugs.

I smoke, mm-mm. No, I wasn't so we could read. Okay. Essentially, every time, I honestly, look at me, it doesn't count. I know, yeah. I mean, apparently it does here, so. All right, fair. So you were, okay, so that, and then in terms of your identity, sexual identity, how did you identify? Queer. Queer.

Yeah, and I think I was around a lot of queer people, and we were living in a warehouse in North London, and there were like 14 of us living in this one tin, basically, that if it rained outside, it rained inside. But it was fun. amazing and it was like-minded people that were like in our mid-20s and discovering drag. Like me and my friend Barb's, we started drag together, you know? Okay. And we were having the best time.

Like 2017, it was the, like, to me, that was the best year I've ever done drag. Wow. Before the show, before drag race. The scene was thriving. There was exciting things happening. There were drag kings coming up that we hadn't necessarily seen on big stages before. Like, they'd been one or two, but there were loads. Like there was a wealth of opportunity and talent and creativity and it was a real buzz.

Could I ask at this point, had you or were you in any committed relationships? I was at that time, yeah. Actually, yeah, I was in a relationship with someone. Wow, look at that. So it was a good time. It was a good time, yeah. We were like, unfortunately, we didn't end the greatest. And that, to be honest, that's on my part.

Like, I wasn't in the best place when we ended after. it was about four years we were together for four and a half years. But I was going through some stuff and I didn't deal with it in the best way. I think I became avoidant. I think that's something that I have struggled with to do over the years. Avoidant. And I think that's where kind of drugs have come in as well. Or not even just drugs.

I think like I have like a bit of an all or nothing mentality. Like it can be good, but it can be bad. You know, it's like a real balance. It's a fine line. Like I can get really into exercise and be really fit in. healthy and like it but then it can also go the other way. So that's something I've always I've always kind of felt I've had to to strike a balance with and but yeah, I was in a commit relationship, a really good group of friends like everything was exciting stuff felt new. There was like a lot of competition

but it was healthy, you know, like it was everyone was hungry. Everyone wanted something like everyone wanted to succeed. Yes, yes. So when you got RuPaul's Drag Race UK, right? You're casted. How are you, How does that process work? So you have to send a tape in, a 10-minute tape, and they have different parts of it. So like performance, lip sync, fashion, and then you have to edit it together, obviously personality where you're talking,

an acting challenge. I don't know if I said that. And then you send it in, and then you just wait for the beckon. Okay, and did you feel confident sending your audition tape in? I did know it was all right. It was good decent.

And me and a few of my friends we showed each other our tapes and then they were like that yours is really good and I was like and I didn't expect to get the calls but I did it I went on it

and I wasn't ready but I just threw myself into it I feel like that's something I always do you know just go for it and when you and that's the all or nothing so you're all in

you're going for it what's your vision of why you're there like what do you think that you're going to get in return for being on the show I think that as a child

or as a young person I always wanted to be an artist and I didn't I didn't do it I like didn't get to do that so for me that was like I might have only started this two years ago or two and a bit years ago

and I might not be the best queen I might not be the funniest I might not be the best at acting but I will work the hardest and I will push myself if I believe when I'm in in that space where I believe in myself, then I could do anything, you know?

Yes. And that was what I went into it with. And unfortunately, I was in the bottom two on the first week, which is not a good place to be. Like, you don't want to be there. So I already, and I won the lip sync, but I was that put my backup because I was like, shit. Like, I'm, I'm, there's so many strong personalities.

Because I think, I mean, I've got a personality, but I'm not, when there's a lot of big personalities, I'm not the loudest in the room. Like, I can, do you know what I mean? Like I can, I guess that comes back to school where I was like trying to fit in in a way. But there were definitely a lot of people that were like shadier and louder. And that's not necessarily me. Like I don't, I don't bitch or I'm not inherently nasty. It's like not kind of my, my wit or my tongue.

I don't like, I could be sassy or bit sarcastic. So I struggled with that in drag in general. Okay. That idea of like having to be a bit of a bitch. We don't have to be, but that would happen a lot. And then COVID happens. so we were filming and we had to stop after four episodes

and I remember being like I've just spent all of my savings all the money that I have on these outfits like that what was the point like I was doing it I guess when you're saying what was it for like to prove to myself that I can

figure out myself as an artist and I'm getting to go on this massive show and this platform but at that point I was like very, it felt very redundant, you know. We were like, we came out, went on to universal credit. Thankfully, we have that system. And we had no jobs.

Like, all of our complete income had gone. Wow. So it was scary because we were like, are we even going to go back? And funnily enough, and I don't, shouldn't look into this too much. But I'd started drinking by that point. The second time when I went back and I was like, I went back and was confident and did it, you know? Whereas in the first part, I was like anxious and a bit second-guessing. So I don't know, like I wasn't, I think I was happier though then.

Okay. When you went back? When I went back. You went back. So you started drinking, not using any drugs. No, just drinking. But just drinking. Were you in a relationship at that point? Yes.

Yeah. Okay. Still in a relationship. But then also what was, what was very memorable was, you know, you came out as pansexual. Yeah. Do you choose that moment specifically? I think, no. I think it was, so again, when we spoke about, because I spoke about it, because I spoke about

non-binary on the show they were they do kind of tell you oh you're why didn't you have a conversation with this person about that so that's kind of it was organic like the conversation

we didn't have it's not scripted but you are kind of like production does have a little like some in the summit you know puts you in a position that kind of allows those conversations which is not necessarily a bad thing but it kind of initiates it so that's kind of why

the non-binary conversation came up, which I'm so glad it did, because myself with Ginny got to have that conversation really raw and openly. Like they were struggling with their identity and I was there for them to have a shoulder to cry on. And, you know, I at that time didn't, don't know all the answers. I still don't.

I think everything evolves and we should be just open to that. But like I spoke about how I felt and it resonated with people, you know, which was a crazy moment, which I didn't expect. Well, what did you say And why didn't you expect it to resonate? I think I simplified the feeling in a way Where I said it feels like a circle

Trying to fit into a square hole Like it's just not quite right Like if everyone, if the circle is this binary And a square is this binary We're something like a triangle And we can't fit into either And then you feel like your other There's a difference between gender and sex

that I think a lot of people might misinterpret or don't understand. Gender has been commonly and widely accepted and known as the definition being a socially constructed view. So gender is what has been created. We have gendered things. Male clothes, female, like boy clothes, that's kind of gendered clothes was actually really. You could both wear jeans the same. You could wear boots, just get the bigger size. Like it's all, we have gendered those things.

we created the pink and the blue for the boys and the girls. And we've created this idea of like, girls have to be quiet and boys have to be strong and can't cry, you know? And that's why there's a big problem with male and emotion because we were told from such a young age. And I, from a young age, didn't fit with any of this. I was like, well, I want to be like this, but I can also be, I can also play with the frogs

and I can also wear a dress. I didn't fit into all of that. idea of what gender is. And that's what the difference with gender and sex is. Sex is the biology, like the biological parts of you, the anatomy, like what you're born with, but gender is, is everything else. Really, if we were to be like all rejecting this idea of the binary, which I know some people it's important to feed into it and that that gives them a sense of belonging. But actually I think like it would benefit every single person on the planet if we didn't have these rigid roles. that's going to ruffle a lot of feathers.

Do you think? Yeah, I mean, because the reason why I say it ruffles a lot of feathers is look at what's happening in the United States. Yeah. So, Jordan, who came on your podcast. Yes. Incredible conversation, by the way, just to say. And the way he spoke about it, that's a similar vein to what I'm trying to say with it. I'm not saying, like, reject this idea of what male and female is.

But, like, it's okay to also be fluid and just understanding that if you have both masculine, and feminine energy, you are like it's the best way to be. Yes. Accepting you can be emotional and strong. Yeah, agree. Agree. You know, and that we all embody this.

We all should. Yeah, we all inherently, in our nature, have qualities of masculine and feminine, whether people like it or not. Facts. These are facts. So then in that conversation as well, you came out with pansexual.

Yes. Which is a term, I'll be honest with you. I did not know about pansexuality until, you know, maybe like three years ago, you know, and I was like, what is this? Let me try to understand this. And then after I looked at it, I thought, maybe everybody's pansexual. Yeah.

So what's your take on being pansexual? My take is that it's more about the person than necessarily genitals, necessarily gender. It includes all walks and all types of identity, you know. It's not exclusive or exclusion. of any one you can fall in love or you can be attracted to the energy of whoever that may be you know and i i found that over the years with so many people because we do live in a superficial world where everything is like especially on like apps yes it's like oh you don't like the look at this person swipe but actually you're just seeing an image of that person they might be the funniest

most kind person you've ever met and might like so it's to me that's what pansexual is it's being open to the experience that it doesn't have to be one or the other. It can be kind of very fluid. It can be all greedy like other people saying, yeah, it's not. It's just like, you know, I think that we're spiritual beings living in a human experience and that we will hopefully go on to another amazing place where they're like, well done, you passed. You didn't.

But like, who knows, you know? Like I think it's nice to think that's my idea of what faith is. There's stuff that's much bigger than us. We are like a blip in time, whatever is going on. And I think that tries to kind of ground me. And recently I've been really feeding into that when I've been stressed or anxious. And I'm like, those feelings are a moment. We just have to ride it out.

Yes, I'm with you. I'm with you. Now, on drag race, that in itself was a very memorable conversation. But something else happened that is the most, I think, memorable. Do you know what that was? Me not winning. That was probably close. No, it was UK Hun.

Oh, yeah, that was, yeah, Big Bang Bong. Oh, my gosh. That was... We charted. Like, you know, so I read in the research first that you charted, right? It was, I think, 27. Yeah, 27. And I was thinking, okay, so how did this sound if you charted?

Because I wasn't here, or I didn't see drag race during that time. So I went YouTube, right, I look at it. And honestly, I was like, this is phenomenal. It was, yeah, it was a moment. It was, and not only was it was a phenomenal, is I have to give you your dues because I saw, like, you're even in growth from 2017 to that moment. The dancing, the physicality that you showed

was just like next level. Thank you. I don't know if I could do that now. No, I could. I'm hurt myself. But that was a real moment. That was the first episode back. And people were like, oh, Bimini's back in the competition.

Because in the first part, I wasn't necessarily like, so that I started having this like trajectory in a way. But it was a real big moment for drag race in general because we were so worried about how it was going to be perceived. COVID, we're like, we're going to have no work. But because of COVID, everyone was at home. And it meant every Thursday night, people had an hour and a bit of joy

where they could just switch off from all of the shit that's going on, all the parties that the Tories were having, all of the, like, stuff that people were doing wrong and all of the, like, scariness and just see humans being vulnerable and creative and expressive and open. And I think that is what is just missing in general in society, is viewing people that aren't yourself. Yes.

And seeing that they are human as well. All right. So now, Bimini, I have to quiz you. Oh, can I quiz you? Yes, go on. Because you're sharp. You're sharp, but let me see. Let me see.

I want to see if you remember your verse on UK. Yeah. Do you? All right, hit it. Release the beast. Bimene, get a pillow for these girls because they sleep on me. Gender bender. System offender.

I like a rough, but my lentils tender. Don't be scared to embrace the femme. Whether you're he, he, she or them. Limpress hairflit, creme de la creme, love yourself. Say that again. You know, the rhyming skills, the rhyming skills, yes, yes. So. It was very like 90s prodigy, Keith Flint Energy was what I was going for.

Yeah, but you know, but you did that also while the dancing. And really, I go back to it as like, no, you're phenomenal on a stage. Playwrights, I do Lumpeter on stage. Yeah, you could see it. Like you could see that you are a dancer and you're athletic as well. You could see where the yoga is in it as well. and also to be able to carry your verse and then do all that at the same time, that takes skill.

It was what I think always dreamt of doing, you know, that performing. I've written music and a puzzle, written raps or written, like, poems or whatever, but that was the first time of getting to do it in that setting as, like, a girl group. Like, it was a girl group challenge. And, like, that was always what I wanted to do. I mean, solo, but, like... By myself. Solo, but, like, yeah.

I remember first starting performing shit in myself. so scared. I'd never done it. And then the confidence grew and I got more confident over the years and I was doing some crazy performances before drag race like getting myself covered in oat milk. Like it was, I'd come out as a cow, talk about like the dairy industry and then strip off into like a fake Louieva Tompikini and get covered on oat milk by like someone and then like twerk into milk money by Fergie. Like it was ridiculous and it was fun. But there was a message, you know, like it was always, I was always trying to say something whether people liked it or not. But performing is something that I love to do.

I haven't been doing it as much recently. I'm focusing it out of the areas, but like in music and like DJing. Like I love that. And I used to DJ before drag race anyway. Okay. So it's something that I've picked up because I just love it. Like I love being able to DJ to a massive crowd of people that are in with you and take them on a musical journey, you know?

One of the best feelings. I think you can't beat it. But I do love being on the stage. I think I just felt out of love with it. What's interesting is that that's a moment that you had been basically waiting for anticipating your entire life. Yeah. And you have this moment, massive stage, as you're saying, everybody's at home. Everyone that I talked to about drag race, they specifically remember that moment.

Yeah, it's crazy, isn't it? Yeah. That's the moment that they remember. Yeah. So here you had your moment. And it sounds like it was like an anti-climax. It wasn't an anti-climax. For a long time I was enjoying it.

A long time I was having a good time. It wasn't until I, something big happened in my life that threw me completely off course. And I'm not blaming that necessarily. That was, that was impactful and it was a trigger that I didn't deal with in the most healthy way. And that's when I first kind of, I used drugs to numb how I was feeling about it. Because I came off the show and I had a wealth of opportunity. and I was flustered into this incredible world and I was going to like five-star hotels

like getting asked to go there and I'm like this is so not me like it's crazy and that was amazing and I was working and I was shooting magazine covers and I was like my dream is coming true like I shot like four covers in a month like after drug race like I was so grateful and so honoured but I was working myself

every single day like I didn't I think it's not working class ethic in me it's like keep up because my mum would always say like I know I'm going to pay your bills for you. You've got to do it yourself. So I've always had that. Like I'll keep hustling.

Opportunities were there. Kept on hustling. Had a really, but then unfortunately about six months in, it went sour with my manager at the time, who I had signed a contract with quite illegally, to be honest, and it shouldn't have been, it shouldn't have been kosher. And I was then said, I wanted to leave because he was pushing me away. I didn't want to go in.

And I was like, I don't really want to be doing that. I don't want to do that. I don't think you get me as an artist. And then it turned into a seven and a half month legal battle with him. I ended up losing a lot of money to get out of the lawsuit. I paid, like, settled out. But it broke me. And I ended up just, yeah, trying to forget.

And that's when I first used drugs again. So drag race, you come off. You were at the height. I mean, everyone wants access to you. You then sign a deal with someone. I did it before. Oh, you did it before. I did it in the break of the thing.

and I was doing not very well in the beginning of the competition, but I shouldn't have done it, and we were told not to. But I was, I guess, hungry for my career after and naive that I went for this, went for it. And it's my fault. I regret it. I had to pay the price. Not so going to say groomed, but like, there was a way of like, kind of,

you're going to get this and this and this, you know? And I'm like, I've never had that. I'm living in my overdraft. Like, I want this world. Like, I've worked to get here. But then after the show, like, yeah, it's really, it should have been void, but we were like working

and then I have never dealt with lawyers before. I'm like never, like I've never had to do that and I couldn't do it. Like I'm, it took away my creativity. It took away what I loved to do. It took away the passion.

It then became a game. It then became something that I was like, this isn't what, this doesn't feel right. I'm like going to gigs. I'm unhappy. I'm not making any money from this. It's not about, I'm not saying it's about the money, but I'm not making money because it's going into the legal fees

or because he's holding it from me. So I'm having to do all of this work. And what for? I'm like getting worked to the bone, like working every day. And it finally just took its toll on me, you know? And that pressure encourage you to begin using again. Because I didn't know where to turn.

I didn't know who to speak to that would relate to the issue that I'm having. I felt so much shame that I had given. been so much power to this person and it took away my creativity and my soul. It literally took away my soul and I have had to fight all these years to get it back, you know? It's tenacity that I've got like I will keep on going determination but it did definitely take it away and it scorned me for a bit. Like I didn't, I wasn't present for a lot of things. I'd go to events and I'd go to gigs but I wasn't there. It wasn't the bimini, bimini that from dragways that people liked. It was a version that wasn't happy. It was a version that was become a robot in a way was just shutting everything out

and couldn't cope, you know? How does the relapse in using, how does that then impact your day to day? Because I would imagine that, because there's a common theme in this conversation around shame and the reaction to shame. And you just mentioned that you felt shame and that pushed you essentially into using again. But now you're using again. And the shame of that made it worse. Like everything was rooted in shame with it when it comes to it. And I think this last year, the end of last year, I was a lot more open. I decided to be open about what I'd been through because I have, I'm in a better place now and I'm in control of my life again. I feel like I'm doing what is making me happy and I'm getting back to that happiness or that's,

that's my goal. But the shame of getting back into that, not knowing who to speak to, I then lost a lot of my friends that were close to me because I was either just like working or not coherent like not that I was like quite isolated isolated myself didn't know who to trust because this person that I was meant to trust who's like managing my career has messed up a lot of people that were like fans that were ordering merch for example and like just didn't send the stuff to the money like there was a lot of things that were like I don't know what to do here like I'm out of my depth. Like I'm not equipped to be able to be creative and go on stage and be witty and be fun and deal with what's going on without. And unfortunately, I just numbed myself with it, you know.

It didn't just hurt me. It affected people that I was in good friendships with, relationships, people that I worked with, people that were like around me. And I'm very much aware of that, you know, like I, and that's again, shame that fed into that. So it was a constant cycle of shame and regret, but then like getting back into it to just switch off. And then it comes to the point where I was like, I can't keep doing this. Like this is, this is going to take me if it keeps going, you know?

I'm not going to be here. And I don't want to do that. I've got too much more that I want to give. And I can't allow, I'm not allowing this man. I'm not allowing the power of just this one thing to knock me when I'm like achieving every single thing that I've always wanted. There are moments that happen where we really

realize we have to make a change. Yeah. Right. And typically they come at the lowest point. So when you think back to the lowest point during that time of your life, when was it? I would say 2003, about just after Halloween, which was the anniversary of, you know what, like, if I look back, like, I mean, that's something I need to work on and deal with, I think, but around that time, I think there's always been a bit of a my mood does change a lot I think was subconsciously without like acknowledging then but that's that around that time was when I like had the bit like the worst

the worst of it I think like switched off went missing for a couple of days like I was on my own um but I was just yeah just couldn't see anyone didn't want to see anyone I was like so alone crying out for help but I didn't want didn't want the help as well I knew then that's when I needed to make a change. And it's been a journey since. Like, it's not been perfect. It's not been linear. It's not like on that day.

I was like, I'm going to be, I'm 100% sober. I was for a while. It's fluctuated. But the drug use isn't there now. Like, the drug use isn't part of my life. I've drank alcohol. Like, I'm not 100% fully sober right now. And I know that I understand that this is a journey that I'm going to be on forever in whatever capacity that is.

But I've now understood after a lot of therapy that is how. that I need to be focused on the most. Because it's when I'm unhappy. And I've lost that happiness, I think. I have to work harder. And it's coming back. Like, I mean, I definitely, I went on to antidepressants, which I don't actually think were that great for me.

But I realized I was suffering with depression and anxiety as well. And it was like it was not, it was something that I didn't admit. And that was why I was using in the end, because it was numbing those feelings, you know. and what I'm trying to learn now, and I'm getting better at it again, is allowing myself to feel those things.

It's okay to feel low. It's okay to be emotional. It's okay to not to just have to have a negative feeling and numb it, you know, because it doesn't do good in the long run. And I've felt that, and I think it like hinders myself, my soul, my creativity, who I am, what I want to achieve, and it just, yeah, it masks everything.

I think what I struggle with is going to a lot of situations. in a lot of events and a lot of parties and like I'll have like one or two now and like one or two drinks and I'm like I hope that this balance could continue you know but whether that's the truth like I don't know what sobriety or recovery looks like for me fully I think my ideal scenario is to be fully completely sober I hope that like the bad days are past and it's not going to happen again I think I'm equipped and strong enough now to to know how to navigate that. Right. And even know how to, I would imagine, identify,

because you mentioned those moments that were incredibly dark. Yeah. Right. And it sounds like what you were describing was a spiral that was happening. Totally. Like, not necessarily not realizing, but yeah, it was definitely a spiral. It was a spiral. So what were the moments ahead of the spiral that you identify? Because I think that could help people before they get to that point.

What did you notice, especially checking in in terms of your, your emotion, what was happening around you, to indicate I'm moving to a very dark place. I was overwhelmed. I had just, I think, just basically partied the weekend before I was doing something that was quite important to me. And then I was like let down in myself. So I think it's those like when, because I'm very grateful for all the work and stuff I get to do

and I'm not in that space now but I definitely was in a space of being unhappy so when I was overwhelmed instead of dealing with it and maybe reaching out to someone or like being or like being like you know what I'm feeling like this let me write it down or I'm feeling like this these are all tools now that I'm like learning to do yes like they're all like things that I'm understanding to do

will help me instead like I did a natural thing to me which was to either turn to the bottle or like do something. Because it was, I think that's been so ingrained in my culture as a human. Like my family is Scottish. Everyone drinks. Like it's a, it's a, it's so normalised, you know. So like, oh, in a good time, drink. In a bad time, drink.

So I think I'm unlearning that. So I think I would just say like if you're, it depends on what, it depends on how the spiral is, what that looks like for you. If you know you have tendencies, to take it too far or like to use too numb, then like try and do everything you can not to do that. Right.

Because that's what I was doing. And then I would also imagine something that you did, I think is very important is, and you've started to pick this up now, is to know the trigger. Yeah. So you felt overwhelmed. You felt like you were letting yourself down.

And then Halloween comes, which is the trigger. Yeah. Right. And normally when we get to that point where we are in that. depressed state and then the trigger comes along. That's what then leads us down the path of the spiral. So now you are aware you're armed with these things and will help to prevent that happening

the next time. And I think it has done because I have recently gone through something that has triggered abandonment feelings like of me and my partner splitting up and it's really sad because we were together two and a half years. I loved him. He loved me. I think I have been on this journey for a while and I'm And it's, like I said, it's not linear.

So I'm still discovering how to find my happiness and do these things. So I think I might not have necessarily been in the right place for a relationship. But I was wanting a relationship with someone because I loved him, you know. And I think maybe I wasn't giving as much as I could have. But I need to do that to myself now. Yes. Femone. Who loves you?

My mum. I assume my mum loves me and I've got good friends I think my friends my circle's a lot smaller than it has it used to be I used to or I used to have like like be with loads of people all the time but now I can't really I don't feel like I do that now I feel like I don't trust as much

okay so yeah I think the people that love me would be but like I think the main person I want to love is myself and that's what I'm trying to work on as much as I can. Do you currently love yourself? I don't fully love myself now. I don't think so. But I'm on the journey too.

I think I'd have in the past, but I think I might have lost it a bit. I think I lost. Because if I look back over the years and how I've dealt with things, that's not how I want to deal with things. That's not me. But instead of like dwelling on that,

I have to be accepting that that was what happened at the time and learn from it. Sure. So this journey of self-love, I think, is radical. So now I'm getting to do what I want to do and the art I do and the music and the performance, everything is for me now. Right. And those are all acts of self-love. Totally. And it's not linear. It's not one route for self-love. There's no, like, it's

something you have to constantly work on. You can't give up. And if you lose it a bit, we need to bring it back, you know, and that's where I'm at. So I'm not fully there, but I'm knocking on the door. You're knocking on the door. And you're knocking on the door because you're doing all these incredible things now. Yeah. So what are those incredible things that you're doing that light you up? Barry's today. No, I've been like, do you know what? I have been making the music that I want to make.

I love dance music. I came from the clubs. That was my world. Like, I grew up listening to like, obviously the pop girlies, but like I'm now getting to make the music I want to make. Like in the production sense and also in the performance sense, I'm getting to do amazing shows I'm doing. But I've got a new song coming out called Keith. on dancing with my friend absolute who's produced it he's amazing DJ and dance music producer and it's basically about like keyboard does it says what it is but like it's a kind of a love letter

in a way to the clubs to the night clubs and the places we're losing like we're losing a lot of music a lot of cultural spaces so it's a letter to that like keep on going we need to we need the music music brings everyone together yes so i'm getting to do that and obviously i'll suddenly the other side. I have my podcast, The Pieces. Yes. I've seen the pieces. The pieces. Yeah, we're doing it. We do it every week. Which is like, yeah, it's good. So that's been a lot of fun. And I've had some amazing guests. We've got some really cool people coming up.

So that's kind of where my time is split right now. Do you still enjoy being on stage, performing on stage? I, yeah, I do. Yeah, I do. I haven't properly performed on stage in a minute. But, well, when was I lost one of fun? But sometimes I don't. Sometimes I don't. It depends on what I'm doing. Okay. That's interesting. So if you think back to your happiest moments performing,

what were those moments? So I'd say the happiest times were when I was coming up through the scene. There was such a sense of community and fun and freedom of drag. It was so not new. Drag's been around for years, but this was new. The fact that brunches were booking drag queens on a weekend. Like I was doing four or five gigs in a day on a Saturday Running around with a fold up chair

Doing like aquabatics on it And it was like it was a hustle We loved it I remember working full time for five months It was the worst time in my life No it wasn't but like I'd find a job for five months in marketing And I would only go to basically the gym box at lunchtime Because that was the only thing to get me through the day Because I was like but I was doing drag on the side

And when I quit the job was teaching yoga Went full time I remember making more money doing drag on one month than I was doing the full-time job and I was like yes we're doing it like this is amazing like I'm getting to perform and do this it's exciting it was just like I don't know the air was amazing so that was one of the best times and then I would say we did the drag race tour they were really fun like my drag race tour I was I did a performance to prodigy and like my own music and it was like chaotic and punky and pole and like I loved that okay but I think the

things that don't feed the soul are like the generic um i don't know yeah i guess like the things that i don't necessarily want to do yeah yeah so and the and i'm with you it's like you want to do all the things that feed your soul yeah and everything else you just want to outsource it yeah you know and the more that you're doing those things that feed your soul the more you are literally self-loving yourself yeah can i say this is what i have most loved about drag so i've been to a drag brunch Right. And it's to your point of, I felt like the host, they were able to say anything to anyone in the room. And in particular, from someone, so from a African American community, right, which is a marginalized community. So being from a marginalized space, I always feel empowered when we can talk about everything, not just something. Yeah, totally. You know, and that was the liberation of going to this, you know, to this drag brunch.

Yeah. And what it also did is because we could talk about everything, it helped to destroy ignorance and arrogance in the room, you know. So ultimately what I'm saying here is that perhaps we need to elect the first drag president and prime minister. Yeah. This is perhaps what we need to do. Well, Donald Trump is in drag. But no, I mean, like, it's, again, this is, I've always loved, loved politics in a way, because I think one thing I don't like about it is how much integrity do these people have? Do they believe in the policies that they're now spouting?

Or is it just because that's what has been created in the media? Right. Your voting history, all of that. Like, there's only a few politicians, I would say, that have true integrity. But, like, I think I'm not going to get taken seriously when I say things because I'm the way I look, you know. Like, people don't, people like, oh, put you in a box. People, that's, that.

Oh, you can't have an opinion. You're dressed like that. But, like, everyone's entitled to have an opinion. But how does that make you feel to be, to be told? You can't have an opinion because you're dressed like that. Oh, I love it. I was invited to Sadiq Khan's, like, sign in ceremony for his mayor. Mayor of a funded, yeah.

I've been told I can't, but I still do it. Okay. Like, I'll sit, like, I'll do, I have my podcast of pieces, and I spoke to Jeremy Corbyn on it. I've spoken to, Owen Jones, like I speak to politicians, like I can engage and have conversations, as most people should, can. Some people don't want to, but like, we should all be able to be able to talk to a politician about how we feel and what is going on, because otherwise, what's the

point in having a politician? They're meant to bridge the gap between the people and the, that kind of the laws or the government and what's going on, whereas, like, if you can't have conversation with politicians, that's where the problem is. And a lot of the time we can't have conversations because they're higher educated and they come from a different class than the average person. They're all part of the same boys club, you know? So it's meant to be like that

because it's how it is. But I feel like yeah, being just me being me, other people being themselves, more voices are so important. Yes, yes. All right, there's a question that everybody gets, that I want to ask you. I cannot wait to hear the answer.

Okay. And that is, if you think back to all of the incredible conversations you've had across your life. What was the most memorable? So who was it with this conversation? And what did you take away? What did you learn? I would say, I'd say tweed.

I'd say it was only tweed. I'd say her light in general, the way she would view the world. Empathy, empathy in a way that was like not a cliche. She was just herself. and she would have a smile on her face all the time and she would light up a room and her energy was magnetic.

And I think she taught me that life is short and live your life. Go fucking go for it, you know? Don't hold back. Yeah, yeah. You know what I've loved so much about this conversation is I come into these where I do my research and as a result I have an opinion

about the person that I'm, you know, the guest that's about to come in. And then I sit and then 100% of the time the guest changes my opinion. And one of the things I will say about you, which is profound, is you have an incredible energy. And you've used that word a few times and you used it with regard to your best friend, you know, and you do. And I don't know if you're aware of how incredible your energy is. And I think this is a reason why you are loved by so many. When I asked you that question, who loves you, you mentioned a few people. I would argue that there are many more people who love you, who you are unaware of.

And I think that's important always to remember is that you have, there's this village of people who adore you and love you. And it could be because of that one moment on stage, you gay, hon, it could be because they saw you at a brunch it could be because they saw you at this particular event, but they love you and they adore you and they stand for what you stand for. And I am now in that category. I really am. I think you are brilliant. I think that you are introspective. You've gone through these incredible challenges and you are very vulnerable in saying, you know what? I'm still going through them, right? I may never fully get out of this, but I'm going to continue to fight. And ultimately that's all we can do is continue to fight and i hope for many things for you but in

particular what i hope for is your happiness because i know that is what you want more than anything and that is what i believe you're going to get thank you i appreciate that yeah just it was quite hard to hear that i don't know why quite hard to hear thank you i appreciate it all right you got it you know and also i'm going to say this is in it and it's This is one of the, I always say the thing that's going to get me into trouble, but I always say it anyway is, you know, when you're talking about, I'm non-binary, right? So don't put me in this box over here.

Don't put me in this box over here. I'm bimini. You know what's interesting is as I see you, I don't see you in a box at all. Good, I'm good, good, good. Yeah, like, I just see you as you. It's also like when it comes to like the pronoun. side of it, which didn't say necessarily too much, but like, I don't mind. As long as I know that it's not someone, you're not being a dick, you know, I don't mind

because I, like I say, I'm me. So if you say he, she, to me, it doesn't matter. Yeah. Pronouns, like, I've all, I actually say it without trying to sound wanky or anything. It's almost like a post-gender ideology of like, it's not the binary. It's not, like, it's just kind of like, like, the binary exists. but I don't want to exist within it, you know? Yes.

It's kind of different to that. And it doesn't matter if you call me he, it doesn't matter if you call me she. If you do it with Melin Tent, I'll know. I can feel it, I can see it. Yes. But ultimately, like, it's a weird one to say, because it's like, say whatever, really.

But like, for some people, it's so important for pronouns, you know? Yeah, yeah. But also, it shouldn't be. Like, you can see where it doesn't need to be. But I think that's why your artistry is so important, is because it is allowing us to step out of this script. One of the things I see more than anything is, as I have more of these conversations,

how much of a script we are handed and how much we almost subscribe to the script without knowing it. Totally, yeah. And if it wasn't for all these conversations, I could see how I would have just continued down this road of and thinking this is what it's supposed to be. Yeah. And why would you not?

Because it's just, why would you challenge what it's been like, yeah. Right, right. So on that note, I thank you. Really, this has been incredible. This has been phenomenal. This has been everything that I wanted it to be. Thank you. Yeah.

I've really enjoyed it too. Thank you. Thank you so much. That was well beyond my expectations. I think I had a stereotype around how Bimini would respond to certain questions. And what I just saw. there was a phenomenally mature person who quite honestly should be running for political office. Yeah.

When I asked Bimini, do you love yourself? And the response was somewhat. You know, it wasn't a specific yes. It was there's some parts. But I would argue this is their highest point in life because of the maturity, ability to self-reflect. and acknowledgement of the lessons learned, especially when I was in the U.S., there was a certain script I was following

and that I never realized I was handed to by society. And I think if I would have followed that I never would have come across abimony in my life, yet have been open and receptive to hear them. And so that to me is the number one lesson is not to judge.

Oh my gosh, you know what? One of the biggest things I have to say is how Bivini articulately identified shame as a driver of many issues throughout their life, but also the lives of others. It's important for us to examine shame, what that does to us, why it's doing that thing to us. That was very, very insightful. This is a conversation that everyone should live. listen to because everyone will see themselves through Bimini and not only see themselves, but see their pain, see their trauma, but also see their promise.