We Need To Talk with Paul C. Brunson - Jamelia EXCLUSIVE: The Dark Side of Being A SUPERSTAR! This is My Truth. Fame wasn't worth it!

Episode Date: February 25, 2025

In this episode of We Need To Talk, BRIT-nominated, MOBO award-winning singer Jamelia sits down for a raw and unfiltered conversation, sharing the untold chapters of her life - from rising to fame as a teenage Superstar to the dark realities of the music industry. She opens up about being groomed at 16, surviving an abusive relationship that inspired Thank You, and the relentless scrutiny of the tabloids, who hacked her phone for a decade. Despite it all, Jamelia has never been happier. She reflects on fame, family, and resilience - how she’s navigated betrayal, heartbreak, and an industry that tried to break her, only to come out stronger. She shares how motherhood saved her, why she’s finally at peace, and the power of owning her story. This is Jamelia as you've never heard her before - honest, fearless, and thriving. Support charities: Refuge - https://g2ul0.app.link/DyflXtM08Qb Women's Aid - https://g2ul0.app.link/kW1JuPO08Qb Follow me here: https://www.instagram.com/needtotalk https://www.tiktok.com/@weneedtotalkpod Follow Jamelia here: Instagram - https://g2ul0.app.link/f4cAxiQQ8Qb TikTok - https://g2ul0.app.link/lgMDMYG08Qb Spotify - https://g2ul0.app.link/vsj2h9y08Qb (00:00) Intro (01:54) Growing Up in Handsworth (03:01) Riots in '81 (04:27) How Would Jamelia Define Rastafarianism? (10:26) Jamelia Father in Prison (13:38) How Did Jamelia Father's Consistency Shape Jamelia Relationships? (18:55) What Would Jamelia Say to Jamelia Father Now? (22:28) Self-Work and Self-Reflection (24:58) Forgiving Jamelia Parents (27:12) Jamelia Mother (29:32) How Did Jamelia Decide Music Was the Career? (33:00) Making More Money Than Jamelia Mother (35:32) Music Career Takes Off (35:56) Jamelia Brothers Groomed Onto the Streets (37:33) How Do Jamelia Define Grooming? (41:42) Did Jamelia Blame Yourself for Jamelia Brother's Conviction? (44:49) A Mother to Nieces and Nephews (49:42) Career Regrets, Phone Hacking, and Press Harassment (56:49) Sexualisation in the Industry (1:04:10) Code-Switching (1:07:46) Eating at Nelson Mandela's House (1:09:28) Adobe ExpressAd (1:10:25) Tinder Ad (1:11:37) Thank You Song (1:19:27) The Next Relationships (1:33:00) Second Husband (01:43:27) Our Children Are Angels (01:49:44) Getting Back Up After Being Knocked Down (01:54:36) New Album (01:56:04) TV Career (02:08:10) How Amazing Life Is Now (02:15:15) Self-Actualisation (With a Partner) (02:18:13) Breaking the Generational Curses (02:21:20) Where Is Your Dream Partner? (02:25:02) Flipping Society's Script (02:31:49) Most Memorable Conversation (02:35:11) Paul's Takeaways Sponsored by: Adobe: https://www.adobe.com/uk/express/ Tinder: https://tinder.com/en-GB Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

I was paranoid thinking that people around me were selling stories to the papers. That was the least of what was about to happen. The UK's biggest R&B star, she is, of course, Jamelia. The winner is Jamelia. The thing that I'm most proud of is my song, Thank You. I was rising and becoming successful, but then it got really, really ugly. I remember just being assaulted and nobody knew, and I went back out and finished the video. That was my most unhappy, my most paranoid and my most isolated.

If you can go back in that office, you get the record deal. Uh-huh. What would you have said? All of my relationships have failed. All of my relationships have broken down. When I was three months pregnant, he just said I'm leaving. I have? I was absolutely broken because I didn't protect my kids from me.

There were points where I was just like, I'm not going to survive this. Being a parent was the beginning of me bouncing back. My children have saved me so many times. My childhood was getting to see other people be loved. You don't believe those things will happen. The most important relationship I will have is the one that I have with myself. But what is it that you want? Before we get started, I want to personally invite you to subscribe if you haven't already.

Joining our community means you'll be the first to know when new conversations drop. And trust me, we've got some incredible ones coming your way. Plus, your comments shape the show. So let us know who you want to see on the show next. So we are here. Yes. We are here. And when I was doing the research,

so I do so much research going into each of our guests. Yes. And one of the areas, and you actually said it when you came in, but we're definitely going to talk about this is, I didn't realize about the circumstances in which you grew up. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And there's a shared interest, I think, that we have in terms of how we grew up.

But in particular, though, is so you were born in, is it Hansworth? Yeah. Well, I was actually, I was actually born like in the, literally in the center of Birmingham. It used to be called Dudley Road Hospital and it's literally in the middle of Birmingham. But I spent most of my time in Hansworth after being born, Hansworth and Aston, yeah, the hood. Those are, okay, so now 81 is when everyone was like, yeah, okay, okay, so 81, but 81 pivotal year. Yes. In Birmingham in particular.

Yeah. And in many cities around the UK. Mm-hmm. So what's happening in 81? So what I know just from historically, there were riots happening. Not necessarily at the time of my birth, but I remember that there were riot, there were rioting. it's happening and it was it was like the police against the rasters in in particular so it was a time where um and forgive me if i'm incorrect i'm not a historian but um i know that it was a time

where a lot of there was a lot of pressure on rastafarians to um to basically conform and um and they were rebelling in an extreme way um to well yeah to the point where they were having riots um but even just kind of like racial, there was a lot of racial tension. Some of the stories that like, especially my dad has told me about that time, just like, you guys were having kids in the middle of it. But when I think back, my mom and my dad were very, very young when they had me. So, you know, I, yeah, I kind of get it, but I still grew up as a raster. I still, I was arrested until I was about 10, maybe.

Yeah. Can we talk about this? Yeah. Because these are these stories I needed to know when we met over a year ago, you know. So first is for a lot of people who don't know what Rastafarian is, right? They think it's just dreads. Yeah, no. You know, how would you define Rastafarianism?

So as someone who lived in it, I just, I'd just say it's the most, it's the most beautiful way of life. It's a real community-based religion. We still follow the Bible. but we I'd say that like the there's huge history connected to how the dreads are relevant

so basically the warriors who were part of the I'm getting nervous about describing it in case I get it wrong but basically so highly Seleasi he needed like an army and if you were in the army you committed to being in the army by not not manipulating your hair

so allowing it to to dread up and the hair caused dread in other people which is how dreadlocks became the term for the hair and it was not about the hair but it was just the hair was a commitment to the cause and it's for me what my experience it was a beautiful religion that celebrated you know being black celebrated

nature and natural food a natural way of life there were lots of children lots of children very fertile yes very very very fertile and one of the things I remember being told from early doors

it's like you know we're all supposed to go forth and multiply like that is something that we're supposed to do we're supposed to have lots of children and so that you know I've got four daughters now and I kind of I still have a little feeling like I should have had more children

yeah yeah I feel like I'm post, especially because the whole religion, you know, the way that it treats children is like we are so cherished with all blessings, you know, no matter how we get here, who we're

born to. I grew up with how I would describe it, like we were all brothers and sisters. So I grew up with lords of brothers and sisters. Some of them not even biologically connected to me, but there were still my brothers still my sisters. And their parents treated me like I was theirs, you know, and it's something that I carry

through to my own life. Like every child I'll come across, in my heart, you're my child too, you know. And I really take that responsibility seriously. My impact on a child is so important to me. And so I want to be a blessing, you know. Yeah. Not only to my own children, it's just, yeah. And I love that.

definitely carry that forward from being born a Rastafarian. And even so I had my luck's taken off when I was about 10 because I was going to a Catholic school. My mom wanted me to go into the Catholic school, but with the dread, it would let them know that I wasn't a Catholic. I don't know why they did that, but it was a thing that parents did. And so, but I've never, I've never stopped having Rastafarianism in my heart. I wouldn't call myself a practicing rasta, but it's definitely a religion that I, yeah, that's in my heart. Yeah. For sure.

You know, why this is a shared passion of ours is because it's a whole spiritual movement that I've been so fascinated by because of my Jamaican heritage. Yes. Yes. So when I'm in Jamaica, I will visit Rasta communities. Yeah. Yeah. And in terms of. How beautiful are they?

Oh, my goodness. It's like, you know, first is you talked about how. they treat their children, right? They're called princes or princesses, right? The adults, kings or queens or empress, you know, and there's that level of respect. And then also what I noticed too is that in terms of science, mathematics, some of the most genius people I've ever met in terms of science are a rostas. So when you're having a conversation with a rasta, it's called reasoning and these conversations can take hours. You could, but they're the most beautiful conversation, transformative conversations.

And even as a child, I would love just like sitting down listening to the elders, like reasoning. And you'd learn so much, as you said, about science, about, about the Earth, about, you know, the astronomy. Like, you will learn every single day. Like, yeah. And then also, this is, I have to say this is because, so this, this photo, when you walked in, you were like, those are the Blue Mountains. Yeah. So these are the Blue Mountains. My favorite place in the world.

Yeah. was there recently, okay, and I'm walking up this trek, right? This land that has never, there's never been a building on. Yeah. And I'm walking with my two sons. Walking up the Blue Mountains and my son says, oh my God, Dad, there's a man standing in the pathway. He has a machete in one hand. He had marijuana in the other hand. He had no shirt on. He was the most cut up. He had like a 16-pack. Of course. Not a not a, not a, not a, not a, not a, I don't have, six, I ate a 16 pack. He walks over

and I'm talking to him. This man is 70 years old. Good. 70. Yeah. The most beautiful physique I've ever seen him. 70.

Yeah. This is, I want to be this. Because health is wealth. Like they've, you know, so Rastafirin is, Rastafirians eat like an idle an idle diet. So it's like, you don't

have sore. You don't have, you know, everything's from the land. If you can grow your own, if you can grow like your own food, like you are, you are, you are the richest man. Like you are the richest man. If you are, you know, you have land

and you have crops and all of that. Like that's, that's the life. Yes. That's success. Yes. You know? So this is beautiful because this is the community you grew up in. Right. So this is how you entered the earth. Yeah. Right. And clearly

this has shaped you throughout your life. But now you mentioned your father. But now you mentioned your father in there. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So your father, both your mother, father, Rastas. Yeah, yeah. Were they officially married? Nope. They weren't married. And then I understand that

your father left. My dad was just very inconsistent and he was inconsistent because he was in and out of prison. And I don't know how to explain this because I wasn't there. But from my understanding, Rastafarians were discreet.

discriminated against heavily, so they couldn't get like normal jobs. You know, I remember, I remember being around. I had many fathers, by the way. Like, and when I say that, not to do with my mom, just I was, I was around some incredible men, like, and they were all my dad. So not to, obviously, I wanted my dad, but I got to see men in a fatherhood role. Even though I felt like an outsider, they still treated me with. the same love and kindness

and, you know, I was never, I was never left out. I was never, you know, I was never, like, to this day, they'll see me and they all call me jamas. Jamas! And I love it because it just reminds me of being a child. But, yeah, my, so my understanding is that because of the discrimination,

I remember growing up and seeing, like, men like carving, carving amazing things, out of wood and selling them and so you'd have like a, not necessarily like a carnival, but like an event maybe in like a park and people will come and buy their ways. But I understand that that wasn't sustainable as a way of living and so my dad found other ways to make money, which, yeah, was crime, you know, which meant that he would be in and out of prison. I'm not, I don't excuse my dad for not being there because it wasn't just because of crime. It was also because of women. It was also, you know, there were also other reasons. But the result was

me having, you know, a very inconsistent relationship with him. And I think, I think that might have, like, infuriated my mom because when he was around, it was like, oh my God. You know, absolutely. To him. Yeah, I was just like. He could do no wrong. Oh, my gosh. Not at all. Not at all.

And it's crazy with hindsight, you look back and you realize mistakes that your parents may have made. But as the child at the time, I will tell you that I had the happiest childhood ever. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you could see it. Yeah. You know, it's one of those ways. And I love how you framed it was your biological father wasn't consistently there.

Yeah. But you had fathers. Yeah. So you had male presence. Yeah. But when you look back now, because now, you know, you could look back. Yeah. And truly reflect.

Mm-hmm. How do you believe your father's inconsistency shaped all relationships that you've had, romantic, platonic, being a mother? Mm-hmm. I think, I think up until very recently, I've always been looking for him, you know, for the love that I think I should have been getting, you know. I think one of the very unfortunate things about my childhood was getting to see other people be loved

and not knowing how that felt. And so I think I spent a lot of my life trying to create it. You know, and it's manifested itself in so many ways. And I think for me, maybe the earliest thing I can think of is doing well at school. Like I just wanted, I wanted to, you know, have top marks. So, you know, I would get the praise or I'd get, you know, or I'd be loved. Do you know what I mean?

And or just, just even to be able to say, like, you know, there were times where I maybe didn't speak to my dad for a year or two years. And I always wanted to get the results so that when I did speak to him, I could say, oh, I got 10 out of 10 in my spelling test or I did this or, you know, I'd keep things. keep so many things. And was the thought that if you did well on your spelling test and your dad saw that, then he would see worthiness in you? Yes.

Spend more time with you. Absolutely. Absolutely. And then I'd say when I was about 10, my dad was in a relationship with another woman. I've never seen him in a relationship with my mom, by the way. But he got into a relationship with a woman. and she had two daughters, and they lived walking distance from my house.

And I then went to, like occasionally I'd go to his house and I'd get to see him being a dad. So that was so, again, at the time, I was so happy to be there. And, you know, oh, you know, my dad loves me. And my dad, my dad, my dad is so, he's overflows with love. you know, for me, but just doesn't know how to actually properly execute it. And so I still, so when he wasn't there, I knew he was up the road looking with two other girls who were

getting to call him dad every single, every single day. And I think that, um, yeah, I think I just, I just always wanted to know what it felt like, you know, to have, to have a dad all the time. I wanted, I wanted to know, like, you know, like, even to this day, like, like, even to this day, like, like, There's little things like, oh, you know, this is going to sound so weird, but like, oh, I wonder what he smells like or I wonder what his favorite food is or. And, you know, I occasionally speak to my dad now, but it's very, it's just inconsistent. It's still inconsistent. But I think what's changed is that I'm not trying to, I'm not trying to force this relationship anymore. I'm just, I've just accepted that, you know, I'm just not going to know what that feels like.

And he is not the only relationship in which I feel like that. Like I feel like in all of my relationships, I've always tried to be what I thought the person I'm with wants me to be. I've always been someone who morphs into, you know, like, you tell me what you want and that's who I'll be. You tell me, you know, how I need to be, how I need to look, how I need to act. And that's who I'm going to be. because I feel like in the past I've been that desperate for love,

that desperate, again, to know what it feels like. And it's unfortunate, but like I still, to this day, like even on my way here, when I came on the plane, I watched this movie and, like, there was this man and he was just like, he was just so in love with this woman. I was like, oh my gosh, like, I'd love to know what that feels like. Because I always feel like it's me performing. It's me being, you know, something.

But how does it feel for someone to just love you as you are, you know, without having to perform? And this was something that we spoke about on celev. We did. We did. We talked about the performing, you know, quite a bit. But now I'm beginning to better understand why it was. At a young age, you realize that in order to feel any semblance of love, or what you thought was love,

what was really a tension that you had to morph into something other than you. Absolutely. And I think that does speak to self-worth because self-worth is saying, regardless of who you think I am, you love me. Exactly.

I am enough. Exactly. But if I need to morph into someone else, that means that I don't feel as if I am enough. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So you mentioned that you have a relationship with your father, it's on and off now. Yeah.

Let's assume that your father's watching this. Yeah. Yeah. What would you say to him? I don't think I'd, I think this is going to sound so sad. But I think that I've resigned myself to like I, I'm just not going to know. Because I'm 44 years old. I'm not going to know what it feels like to be a little girl receiving love from her dad.

I'm never going to know that now because I'm 44. And it's kind of like, as I said, like, I would say over the last year, I've kind of come to terms with that. You know, even maybe three, four years ago, I was still trying to get that love slash attention. And not just from my dad either. I have to say that, not just from my dad, also from my mom. And she hates when I speak about her on anything. so I don't want to go too deep in that, but it's not. I am a child who got to see so many people being loved

and just spent so much of my time wondering what that feels like. And I think even my career, the reason I, you know, worked so hard, not necessarily to be famous, but to excel at work. whatever it is I was doing is because it's literally like, look, dad, look at me, look what I can do. Right. Literally. And I feel like I've spent 20 years doing that.

Doing that, yeah. And you know what I think is, could be profound, is you've already acknowledged perhaps that love that I've always wanted. It's not going to come. Yeah. But then I think it's also important for you to have a voice. Mm. to say, well, here's what I would have liked.

Yeah. Or here's what I need. Why? The reason being is because you know what it is that you need. Yeah. So even me asking you that, inside, deep down, I know that there are things that you desire. Yeah. But you don't believe those things will happen.

Yeah. So therefore, you tell yourself, I'm, just not even going to put it out there because it's not going to happen. Yeah. So it's wasted. Yeah. But actually, these are true feelings that you have. Yeah.

Yeah. And by allowing those feelings by releasing them, you're allowing them to live. Now, can you feel a bit of shame doing that? Can you feel a bit of being ostracized doing it? Can you feel a little bit of embarrassment if you do it? Absolutely. But this is why, you know, with many of the guests that we've had, I've said, write a letter. Yeah.

Right? And everyone says, oh, but I don't know. But the beauty of a letter is saying, here's how I feel. Yeah. And here's the end. Yeah. Like it begins here. Yeah.

This is how I feel. Uh-huh. And I want you to know this is exactly how I feel and here's the end. So what I will tell you is. I'm someone I'm so passionate about self-work and self-reflection and developing and growing and evolving. I've written many letters. I've written many letters.

Some I've written and not sent. Some I've sent. Nice. And I feel like, I don't know, I just feel like I'm, okay, yeah, I feel like, yeah, I'm just, I'm not going to get what I want in that respect. What is it that you want? I just want to know what like it feels to be like unconditionally loved by your parents. That's what I would like. Yeah.

Okay. Yeah. Do they know that? I think, I think any mention of it. So on one hand with, you know, my mom, like, I love my mom and I have so much respect for her. but I know that my truth, me saying this, is so offensive, so offensive. So the pushback that I'll get is horrific. And then from my dad's perspective, I feel like I'll get, I'll get acknowledgement,

but like no action. And so, and me now, if someone was, so, okay, for instance, my my children I give my children everything that I never got and I don't mean materialistically I mean emotionally I mean you know they get apologies they get explanations they they get you know

they they see me cry they see me happy they they I want them to understand you know either that I tried or that you know or I failed or I succeeded I that they are important

and how I show up for them is important to me and me being a parent is important. But I also, it's a tricky one. So for me I feel like how I

resolve the things that I feel is by giving it to my children. Right. And I think there's beauty in that. Yeah. But the reason why I feel is if this is an exercise, if you will,

that is important for you. is because you have just said that you are continuing to show up in a way where you desire that love. Yeah. And so if you're showing up in a way where you're desiring love and you are turning yourself into someone who you're not or you're turning yourself into a version where you're not. Yeah. That means that you're still internally, you're struggling with self-worth. Yeah. And when it comes to your mother and your father,

Yeah. You've already admitted, you know what, maybe they won't change. And you know what? They're Jamaican. Yeah. So there's a level of stubborn. They're older Jamaican, so I get it, right? I know I can't convince my grandparents of anything.

Yeah. So I get that. But for you to be able to forgive them gives yourself the ability to move on. Yeah. So, okay. Okay. Sorry. Yeah.

And how to do that. how it begins is what you just said about your father, for example. That is, you know what, here's what I would love. I don't think it's going to happen. Yeah. And I accept that. Period. With your mom.

Here's what I would love. I know you hearing this is horrific. And I understand why. Yeah. You're in that generation, et cetera. Like, I understand why. And I forgive you. Yeah.

Yeah. I think, again, I feel like I'll forgive him. my parents many times. Okay. Well, that's good. But currently, currently I feel unable to have relationships with them because of what I'm trying to do for myself. I'm trying to exist without longing.

And I feel like having them in my lives at such close proximity just reminds me of all the things that I don't have. Yeah, which is fair. Yeah. It is fair. And I think in this is like it is for your mental health. Yeah. You have to keep an armly.

Yeah. It's hard though. Relationship. Yeah. Yeah. But can we talk about your mother? Just, you know, however much you want to talk about her is because she was, she's been, she was consistently in your life.

Yeah. Yeah. So early on, what was that relationship? Oh my gosh. So as I said, I would tell you that I had the happiest childhood. My mom, like, she's, so I'm as a creative, my mom's a creative, and to be born to her was like, it was like the best, you know, the best thing ever. So our house was music. Our house was, we were making things.

We were, she, my mom loves children. And so we got to play, we got to pretend, we got to travel. And when I say travel, we weren't traveling around the world, but like, you know, go and walk through a forest and find different leaves and stuff like that. I, you know, we'd find frogs, we'd go and, you know, go and fish. Like we, I would tell you that my childhood was beautiful, like absolutely beautiful. And it's one of those things, like, as a mother now, I can look back at my mom and be, you know, just be so full of, like, respect for her, you know, because there are things about her life, that kind of parallel mind.

And I'm kind of like, well, like I understand, you know, I understand. I understand. I even understand how things kind of took a wrong turn. And when I say a wrong turn, so I was becoming successful at the same time, my brothers were going down a totally different path and we were all born in the same house. And so my mom.

And what age is this too? So I would say, I would say, even though I left home to pursue music at 15 my brothers are like three and four years younger than me so not weren't that far apart I'd say when I was about 18 I was like you know I'd started going on to like talk of the pops

and like performing like doing the big things can we even go back to 15 though yeah because so okay so you're in the home yeah with mom yeah you have brothers in the home as well. Two little brothers. Two little brothers.

Yeah. Okay. You're still in Birmingham. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. At 15. So how do you decide that music is the right route? Because 15 is still early.

So what is it about music that makes you think, okay, this could be a career? I was just obsessed with music. My music career was completely opportunity. I was ready for the opportunity when it arose. Like I was not pursuing music. I was not, I was not like, trained. training to be a singer, just nothing of the sort. Like, my ambition when I was 15 was to go and work in the corner shop.

Like, I was like, oh, I'd love to, you know, do the till, do the beep. The beep is cool. Yeah. The beep was cool. Like, literally, that was my ambition at 15. And I went to Notting Hill Carnival at 15. And I had my album. So I had a karaoke machine and I would record pretend.

albums onto a cassette tape showing my age and um and i'd put them in my walkman showing my age a walkman what's for that whatever i've never heard of what it was and um and my cousin just so happened to hear what i was playing and she was like who's decent i was like oh it's me like i're really embarrassed anyway we went to not in hill carnival and she went to the guy and behind the dj booth and she was just like my cousin can sing and i was just like what are you doing it. But then obviously like peer pressure the crowd started shouting at the store so I was just like okay

and I took the mic and I sang right here by SWV yeah and it just so happened that in the crowd was an A&R man from a Parlophone Records which is the subsidiary of EMI and he was just in the crowd he was just at carnival

but he came through the crowd crowd seeked out my mom and said can she come in tomorrow so I guess it was Bank Holiday Monday and so the next day I went in, I offered me a record deal. Right on the spot. Right there and then. Yeah.

Yeah. It's insane. And before that point, other than my little tapes, I, I, I, I, it was, it was like, I would dream of being a singer in the same way a little girl might dream of being a princess. It's not going to happen, is it? Like it's just, we just pretend, we just play. Right. You know? And so I was pretending.

and then it actually happened. Right on the spot. So you're in there. It's you, your mom? Yeah, me and my mom, three or four of my cousins. But it's typical to make. They're like cousins where they're like aunties. Like they're old, like, you had 16 people there.

Listen, the office was packed, just full of black women. And yeah, his name is Lloyd Brown and I absolutely adore him. And yeah, he changed my life. Wow. Yeah. So he offers you a deal. Yeah. So do you accept on the spot?

I did. But my mom was like, no, sir. She's got to pass her GCSEs first. And so I was like, okay. You know, it was just a challenge to me. So I was like, okay. And so that summer, it was so summer holidays. So carnivals usually at the end of August.

Yes. I'll go back to school in September. A stole my exams, of course. And then as soon as I did, went back to EMI. I was like, yeah. And they gave you this deal. Oh, yeah, yeah. That's incredible.

Yeah. So you were, what, 16, 17? So I was, so at that point, they still signed me to like a retainer deal so that I wouldn't sign anywhere else. So, and even that was life changing. So it was, it was £600 a month, which at the time was more than what my mom was being paid. And so you can imagine that that changed the household. I'm with you. Because now you're bringing in more income.

than anyone else in the household. Exactly. Yeah. So you can imagine how that changes a household. It didn't change me. I mean, I bought traders. I bought lots of trainers. But, like, again, in hindsight,

I can only imagine what, you know, how that must have been a little bit, I don't know, like, discombulating, like, oh, what's going on? Like, you know, if one of my daughters turned around, and they could now pay the bills. Right. Right.

Did you feel that? Did you feel that the dynamic in the family changed once that money started coming in? I felt like I definitely felt like there was a shift in, especially in the relationship between me and my mom. I couldn't explain it. I didn't understand it. And but for me, I had a focus. I had, I could go, I was going to the studio. I was going to dance lessons.

and so, and I was just in heaven. Like, I was, you know, it was just playing by at the same time, my brothers just started getting into trouble and my mom wasn't telling me about that. So I'd be going to London and I didn't know, like, I remember, I remember coming back, like, for, to, just coming back home and realizing that my brother had started smoking. And I was just like, like, what?

You're smoking? and we were really against smoking in my house because my mum used to smoke and she stopped smoking and she taught us all about the effects of smoking, the hazards of smoking and so we were really anti-smoking in the house and so yeah, to find out my brother was smoking

was just so strange, so shocking but that was that was like that was the least of what was about to happen. Okay. Yeah. Okay.

Yeah. What did happen? So at, so this is, this is, by this point, I've released singles. I'm in the charts. And then, and I don't, this was, this all happened at the same time. So I was climbing the charts. I was. What did you release by the way, this time? So I released money. I released my, my first album drama. So I would have been promoting that.

up and down the UK. I could see how you were getting so much love and attention. Yeah, yeah. But your brothers at home, perhaps they were getting love and attention elsewhere. Yes, okay. So, and this is the thing. I think it's really important to know that none of us were insulated from the perils of growing up in the inner city. I would describe maybe at the same age, not the same time,

but at the same ages we were groomed. So I was groomed at 16 into a relationship and my brothers were groomed to go on to the streets. Interesting. Around the same age, around when they were like 16. And it's really strange. Like, again, these are things that I realize in, adulthood like me in my 30s like hold on that that's isn't that because because I'm I'm I'm I love to

read I love to learn I love to learn about psychology in particular it's um and and then I also love to apply what I've learned to myself um I'm not big on counseling I'm big on having conversations with myself and self-reflection I'm really that's that's what I enjoy doing and um yeah so to kind of look back at our childhoods and realize it was grooming yeah 100% you know grooming is it's interesting because it's it's a it's a term that I think is just recently begun to become used more and more so how do you define grooming so when when an older person spots of vulnerability in a younger person particularly you know at the child that for instance my mom was an incredibly hard worker and such an inspiration to me when it comes to work ethic,

but it meant that she couldn't be at home with us all the time. So we were able to, we could do what we want. And at 15, 16, we needed protection, you know, that my mum was unable to provide. And so, and also there's this thing about boys and girls as well. There's a, there's a difference. So, you know, my brothers were allowed to go and do things that I wasn't allowed to do. at their age. But yeah, I, I, so I remember my brother explaining it to me that someone offered him,

someone said, oh, you know, what are those trainers you got on? Like, you know, here's 50 pound going to buy yourself a better pair of trainers. And then, you know, do you want to make some money? Do you want to make some big boy money? Do you know what I mean? And, and it slowly became that. And then he became the big boy. Do you know what I mean?

Like he became the guy or the second in command. This is another thing I have to be transparent about. I don't really know how it works because I've not experienced it. I've not, I wasn't a part of it. I only know what I've been told. And, but what I am sure of is that my brothers were groomed just as much as I was. And that we were, the grooming was able to happen because we were on. supervised.

Okay. And, you know, I think it's so eloquent what you're saying because oftentimes when we think about grooming today or when it's talked about, it's typically talked about with regard to women or should I say young girls. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Who are being coerced into sex.

Mm-hmm. Right. Whereas it happens at high frequency for our young men. Oh, my gosh. Especially into gang culture. So is this what happened is that your brothers were groomed into gang culture? Yeah. Absolutely.

And again, it's not something I can talk about at length because I don't, I wasn't there to see it happening. I was never privy to it. So this is another thing. When you are, you may be in close proximity to crime, but not be aware of it. Like, I just, I just had my brothers, you know. And they're not telling you. Oh, my gosh. You know, I know, like, if I was to describe my brother, like, if I was to describe my brothers to you,

and someone else was to describe my brothers, you could have two totally different explanations. Like, to me, my brother's just silly and just we spent all of our days just cackling, like just laughing, busing joke. Like, that was our life. Like, I, so when I was, I think I was 22, I think I might have been about 22. my brother was arrested for murder

and I knew nothing about it but obviously and obviously I'm just like well my brother would never do anything like that so there's got to be a mistake I paid for lawyers because I'm just like there's no way he did this there's no way

and then he was convicted and got 18 years and like yeah that that was earth shattering you know but all while so it's on the front pages of the newspapers because I'm also number one in Australia I'm also on every TV station you know so going back to what I was mentioning earlier my mom found it very hard to celebrate me because it also meant she's also the mom of her murderer yeah You know, I'm curious because you talked about how there was a dynamic shift when you started earning.

Yeah. So that dynamic shift must have exacerbated as you're earning more, as you're becoming more popular. Did you ever think I'm actually one of the reasons why this is happening to my brother? Did you ever put any blame on yourself? I think I felt like everything changed when I left the household because even though I didn't move out, I was away more and more. I was literally, you know, going to Australia for two weeks or going to, you know, Europe or, you know, and I'm literally living this life like I'm going on a private jet for two days to go and promote my single in France.

Like I'm living a life so far removed from that that my family is living. I've bought them a house and they live in a nicer area, but, you know, I haven't, I didn't have the knowledge that in order to change someone's life, you need to change their whole infrastructure. It's not, it's not good enough just to move them from one area to another, you know. And I think just because you live in this house doesn't mean that, you know, you're not going to want to go back to what you know, go back to what's familiar.

because even though I was removed from the house, I was removed and I was placed in a totally different environment where everyone was creative, everyone was working, everyone was, you know, doing this thing. Right, inspired. Yeah. Right. You know, and I think I'm great because, you know,

my mom drives a nice car and she's got a beautiful house and, you know, there's gates outside the house now. So I'm like, you know, I've done my, you know, I've done my eating. That's kind of like how I felt. But I didn't, looking back, I think I feel like had I experienced that now, I would have done something totally different. And I feel like I could have changed the trajectory of my brother's lives, for sure. You feel responsible for what happened to your brother.

And it's your brothers because. Yeah, two younger brothers, yeah. So within years of each other, they were basically in and out of prison. Before my brother was convicted for 18 years, he'd been in prison before, maybe a couple of times. Then my younger brother was in and out of prison. And yeah, it's really difficult for me to speak about it because I feel like I'm speaking about it as an outsider, not as someone who experienced this. Like I experienced the consequences of the aftermath of

when my brother went inside for 18 years, he had two children by that point. So I then become responsible for the children. I fostered them. They lived with me. And yeah, yeah. At what age? This is...

On and off for years. So sometimes they, you know, sometimes they would go home. But like all of my nieces. and nephews became my children and they still are to this day they're my kids they're all they're all over 18 now

but like I do have and this is the thing like my family is so broken now like I do have nieces and nephews that I don't know and I hate that like I absolutely hate that

because my older nieces and nephews I'm so close with them as I said like um with my brothers being in and out of prison, I became, you know, I just became another parent to my nieces and nephews, which I loved, by the way.

I love having that relationship. But this is such enormous responsibility for someone who has just started their career. Yeah. And I think what's so interesting is I bet you, everyone's looking at Chimilia, going to Australia on the private jet, singing money,

thinking she's living. living her best life. Yeah. That they have no idea what's actually happening. Oh gosh. Yeah. Yeah. There's, and I think, I think there's that. It's, I was, I was living this constant duality, up until very recently, by the way. And they're both my real lives.

And I think the thing that I hate more than anything was when they crossed over, when, you know, they would print stories about my brothers or, you know, things, things like that really affect me because I want to keep them separate. Not because I'm ashamed, but because the two are not relevant to each other. They're two totally different things. You know, me, me going to, you know, do prison visits and bring my kids and my niece and nephews to go and see their dad. Like, that's, that's my life, you know, that's my, you know, it's my heart. It's something that, you know, my duty, I think.

And then me going to be on stage, for me, that's just my job. And I know it's silly, but I expect other people to see it as me just as the same as someone going to do a nine to five. Like, you know, you don't broadcast your private life at your nine to five. And why should I? And I think, and I fought very heavily against that on several occasions. because number one, my family did not choose what I chose to do with my life. They did not choose to have a life in the public eye. I did.

And so the consequences that before me and my children, I feel like their decisions that I've made on mine and my children's behalf. And so it's my responsibility to protect them. Yes. But when it comes to my brothers, I'm just not cool with them. them being demonized in the press. And it's going to sound like an insane thing to say.

But like there are, there are so many people who commit crimes for so many different reasons. And I'm not justifying anything, but I'm just saying that they get to, they get to do their journeys in a way that they get, that they, they get to do their journeys in a way in which, you know, they can go back out into the world and be anonymous or or rebuild their lives but printing my brothers in the papers and stuff mean that you know when they do get to an age where they turn over a new leaf or choose to change their lives or you know try to yeah try to try to change their lives for the better they they have a different experience because you type their name in and you've got all these front covers you see you see these articles yeah and they haven't and they

they have nothing to do with it. And I'm not, it sounds crazy because it sounds like such a crazy thing to say. But, but you know, it, it, I don't believe it is. Yeah. And a matter of fact, there have been several guests. Yeah. Who have sat here. Yeah.

And have said the exact same thing in regard to. They chose this path. Yeah. It has led them to celebrity. Yeah. Their family didn't choose that. Uh-huh. But their family bears the consequences.

Exactly. And typically it's the consequence of media. Yep, yeah. But you said something there that I have to go back to because you said, reflecting back, you realize that you could have done things differently. Oh, yeah, yeah. What would you have changed? Oh, just not gone into the career.

Really? Yeah, just I feel like if I hadn't become a singer, I'd probably have a happier family unit. I think that I'd have a lovely relationship with my family just because I think one of the things that people don't understand is like, especially in the time where I began my career, the tabloids, they were relentless. I had my phone hacked.

Did you? Yeah. So there were things. So I lost friendships. I lost, you know, because I was paranoid thinking that people, around me were selling stories to the papers because they were finding out things

you know the things to do with my brothers if I was dating someone if I don't know if I bought a house it was always getting printed in the papers where I was going to be I was always getting papped to some people being papped

is like you know this glamorous thing as someone from from inner city Birmingham That's so intrusive. It's so scary. And you feel like you're being stalked. There are some celebrities who were calling the Papps and, you know, and that's fine. I had no, no shade to them whatsoever.

But that's never been me. That was not you. Yeah. I've never wanted that side of things. You know, the phone hacking, because I see that this comes up many times I see. Yeah. Harry, Prince Harry, just won a phone hacking suit. Yeah.

So with the phone hacking, was that press that that's, that hacks your phone? Yeah. Yeah. And they're just looking for any kind of message. Like, so they check your messages every single day. So multiple times I go to check my messages and it's like they've already been listened to. But I don't know about phone hacking. You know, I've found out that my phone was hacked in 20,

17th and I sued the papers and um and it was nice. I didn't know this. So it was it was press. Yeah. That hacked your phone. Yeah. And how years. For years.

Oh for for over 10 years. What? Yes. For over 10 years. So so for instance, things like, um, revealing that I was pregnant, you know, before I was ready to do so or before I'd probably told my family members, um, you know, I've probably made an appointment to go to the hospital or whatever and so they can hear all my messages and with my friends.

It got to the point where I was, you know, I was just, I isolated myself so much because I'm like, well, someone saying something. Right. You become paranoid. Of course. Of course. You probably reduce your circle. Over and over again until it was just me.

And then, you know, and even then. I had things like reporters turn up to. my daughter's school to try and pick my children up from school. Like, and, and like my, you know, obviously my daughters were like, we don't know who that man is. And but to, so for me, that feels like someone is trying to kidnap my children. That's why it feels like. And, but they're doing it for a story to talk to my children to try and interview them. And so, and it was at that point where I took my children out of school and decided to homeschool them.

And I still homeschool, I homeschool my seven-year-old. You know, I had no idea about this. I had no idea. I mean, to think that you had your phone hacked for 10, that's a decade of every message coming in, they're reading. Yeah. Right. I can see the paranoia that comes with that. So now I better understand, but I want to make sure this is what you're saying.

So you're saying that if you can go back Yeah 15 Yeah In that office Yeah You get the record deal Uh huh

What would you have said? I'd have said no I'd say no I would say no Because I've I've enjoyed Obscene amounts of money It doesn't make you happy

It doesn't make you happy Especially if you're not in an environment Where you have your people Like I've never been someone who was impressed by money. I like that I have money now because of what it's allowed me to do with my life now.

But like, I'm not earning like anywhere near what I was at the height of my fame. But when I was at the height of my fame, I think that was my most unhappy, my most paranoid and my most isolated because someone around me

is making money from me, you know, and everyone was targeted my my ex-boyfriend, my dad, my ex-husband, even just like little things like what my children were doing at school, you know? And then obviously like my brothers, my mom, it just becomes so intrusive. And as I said, like, they didn't choose this, you know? And so I feel like I chose this for them. I've chosen, you know, I'm not the only person experiencing this paranoia.

You know, it also means that, you know, my brother's not safe in jail because he's, you know, everyone knows who his sister is. So now because everyone knows who his sister is, it causes him to have issues. Issues. Is this why? Because one thing I was looking at. Yeah. I looked at your dysography.

Yeah. And I was looking at when the first. So it was really 1999. Yeah. It was when you released a debut single, So High. Yeah, yeah. Your last album, which your third album, is 2006. Yeah.

Seven years. And then you, that's it. Yeah. It's a rap. Yeah. Because for me, it was like it's too much. It is too much. And so even though it's seven years, I signed my records at 15.

so between 15 and 18. So to me it's like that's 10 years. And so and by that point I was I was just done. I was done because this is the thing. That's one thing that's happening. But then then there's this idea that if you're an R&B singer, a black woman, you know, you need to have this hypersexualized persona. And I was fighting against that so much.

Like I definitely fell into it at first and, you know, and I love the attention, you know. And how does that come about? Because I know when I was talking to Sherylouille. Yeah. I mean, what she was saying was blowing my mind. She said, management sat me down. Yeah. They said you should have a shorter.

Yeah. Is that? Yeah. Yeah. And it's like, well, for me, I'd say it was more subtle because of my personality. Because I'm, if you look at pictures at the beginning of my. career. I was in my trainers. I was in like baggy trousers. I was more I was more like Elya. You know, that was like my vibe. And then then it became, I think a huge turning point for me was

Naomi Campbell pulled out of presenting an award at the Brits. And so they asked me to present it. And then they did this whole thing that I was going to replace Naomi Campbell. I got a modelling contract off the back of it. And it was kind of like I was a sexy black girl now. And so, okay, I feel like this is important. I was very small for my age for a very, very long time. I've always looked way younger than I actually am.

And so I think for me at that age, I must have been about 23, 24, to be seen as sexy was like, oh my gosh, me. Okay. And so I definitely fed into it. I definitely fed into it and and lapped it up. And so, you know, when they suggested shorter skirts, you know, and I mean like really that you could,

I was on top of the pops and my bottom was on top of the pops. Like it was when I look at it now, you know, you'd do shows and they'd be perhaps underneath your skirt, taking pictures. and I won't lie to you. I was just like, you know, I know what shot they want, so I'll make sure they get it. But then having a daughter,

when she's a baby, it didn't matter. But I'd say like, so 2000, I had my second daughter in 2005. I had my first daughter in 2001, and then my second daughter in 2005. And seeing my my second daughter in 2005, and seeing my, then four-year-old copying my moves copy my

music videos and stuff like that I was just like no and it was again it wasn't just because it was my daughter it was like this is everyone's daughter right and I remember you know going in and saying I'm I don't want to do that anymore I don't want to

influence people's daughters to be sexual you know my child is four And so there are other four-year-olds And just little girls Who are big fans of mine Yes

Why am I selling this to them? Yes, yes And then it became It became this thing that this is what R&B singers do If you want to be R&B Then this is what you do And I was just like No

How far do they push it Because you know In Shares episode Yeah Or should I say in her conversation Yeah. What really stood out to me was when she said she was in a management meeting. Her husband is with her. Yeah. And they tell her to go chase Justin Bieber down at a club, get photos with him, and even have a full-on relationship with him in order to promote her album. So did anything along those lines happen to you where you were directed at you should get with this person or you should do, you know, something that was just out of your nature?

So you know that Jamaican saying, do Pino, who'd be frightened? Yes. I think they knew not to have those type of conversations with me. But that doesn't mean that those conversations weren't had. Like, I remember once having a conversation where, you know, we started on a conversation about me going over to America. And the conversation was, what are you willing to do?

And I was like, what do you mean? And another artist was meant. and I was told what this artist was willing to do. Obviously, I'm not going to mention if that is. Yeah, don't mention the artist. But what was that artist willing to do? To sleep with people. And I was just like, okay, I'm out.

Like, I'm out. Because if that's what I need to do, if my singing ability is not enough for me to make it. It was because basically what they were saying is, if you sleep with the right people, then you get better opportunities. So the suggestion was there were certain producers, you know, like, you know,

some producers are a huge fan of. And the thing is, obviously, the conversation didn't even get to a stage where I'm finding out how it's going to be done because it was just an absolute no goal. And when I was told about this artist, I remember this artist was a younger artist, she was younger than me.

And I remember just being absolutely horrified and feeling, yeah, just just just just just feeling really awful for her that that she, one of the things that I've always been really good at is saying no. I've been, I've been offered. Honestly, that like I've been offered opportunities where I, you know, I could have retired. And I would say no because they either compromise my integrity, they go against my morals. or my values and much to the dismay of, you know, my management at the time, there are a lot of things

I'm not willing to do for a check. But what are those opportunities or is it, I mean, because I would imagine if it's that much money, it's a type of partnership, is it where? Okay, so, no, so for example, okay, okay, this isn't an extreme example, but my reason is because I know, know myself. So for instance, I was offered, I was offered a quarter of a million to do Big Brother.

Okay. Do you know what Big Brother is? Yes. Yeah. Okay. And I just knew I, I can't sit in a house with people, you know, I don't know people's hygiene. I don't know people's how, you know, I think hygiene, I'm Jamaican. So I know that hygiene was the main thing. And I don't know. And, and, and, and I don't know. I think there's an element of being a black woman in the entertainment industry, no matter what, no matter what, I'm code switching, then no matter what I'm having to show up as a certain version of myself. Can we spend a second for everyone that doesn't know what code switching is? Okay.

If you could just chill in the blank, yes. So code switching is when you, for me, it's kind of censoring myself. It's not being as honest and open. I wouldn't say honest, but not being as open with every facet of my personality. So in certain environments, I might just, I'll just present myself differently to how I'd be if you were in my house. And it's not, it's not about being comfortable. It's about protecting myself, right.

I feel, especially as a black woman in the entertainment industry, especially at the time that I was in the entertainment industry, coming up, we were few and far between. So I automatically became a representative. And so I was so straight and narrow. You would never catch me drinking. You'd never catch me. You'd never catch me. I want to say you'd never catch me, I would never drink.

Like I would never be caught in any compromising situations or scenarios. I would never, I didn't want to embarrass my family. But I also didn't want to embarrass the community of people that looked up to me. I didn't want to embarrass, you know, my aunties that were, you know, that would approach me in. the street like I it was really important to me to kind of yeah to be able to represent black women well and so in denying big brother yeah you were saying that you would have had to cross boundaries be uncomfortable so a quarter of a of a million is well you it was basically a

death certificate for my career that's how I looked at it because I could have done it but then that would have been my last check it would have been the last money I received because I know myself and I know that the walls would have broken down at some stage. And I don't know how that would manifest itself, whether that's in anger, in coming across as, you know, having an attitude. And I've seen it happen so many times. As soon as I speak about something that makes, in particular, white people feel uncomfortable, I'm the bad guy, you know,

or even speaking positively about myself, a lot of people find that offensive because on paper I have a really flawed individual and I get it I get it but I have a very high sense of self now today and yeah

and people find that offensive and yeah I feel like doing something like that yeah it wouldn't have ended well yeah I mean I think that's a good example because and I'm sure you're getting multiple offers like that

time and time again so it's one of those where you but what I find so interesting is that you now when you look back you would have rather worked in the corner shop oh yeah yeah I feel it's not

that I would have rather had done that because genuinely like I love like I love just being an entertainer I love I love singing I love performing. I love acting.

I love even this, like doing this interview. I feel I love being a representative. I really do. I love being a representative for women. I love being a representative for mothers, for black women, for black people. Like I love that. And I love showing up in these spaces. So on that, when you think about, especially at the height of your career,

Yeah. What are some things that you are super proud of that were just like you did and it blew your mind? I think, I think like moments like being at Nelson Mandela's house. At his house? At his house? In South Africa. Yeah. Was this the house?

This is Johannesburg. In Johannesburg. I've driven by the house. Yeah. And being there and eating dinner. There were like a hundred people. It wasn't like just me and him. But like, and I've met him multiple times.

Like, this is someone that we had, like, off on the wall. You know, wherever we, I remember celebrating when he was released from prison as a child, like, you know, seeing that day and it was such a historic day. And I've got a picture like me and him chilling. In his house. Like, to me, that's, it's just, it's just insane. Like, it's insane. As I said, doing a song with Beanie Man, going on tour with Usher.

being on like multiple private planes taking my children on private planes going to Australia you know New Zealand and being number one being the number one the most played you know most played song on radio like there are so many there are so many achievements and accolades that I have that that will never you will never sink in you know being being a success, just being successful, like the thing that I love is, is mind-blowing to me because there is a part of me that never stops being that 15-year-old girl. We Need to Talk is quite literally brought to you by Adobe Express.

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domestic abuse. If this is a tough subject for you, please watch with care. We've also added links to support charities in the episode description. Your music was the soundtrack to so many people's lives. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You know, it truly was. Yeah. The songs, the lyrics. Yeah. And it gave them hope. Yeah. Yeah. It gave them inspiration. It gave them a pathway. Yeah. I feel, I feel like, yeah, my proudest, the thing that I'm most proud of is my song, thank you. Yes. So, and the reason I'm so proud of that is because I have been told. so many times. I'm going to get upset. Sorry.

Sorry. I've been told like so many times that that song saved my life or that song changed my life or that song gave me the strength to leave. I just like, as I said,

like, I don't stop being that girl from Birmingham and to know that people are here. because of a song that I wrote. It's incredible and it's something that like, I wouldn't even just describe it as pride. I just, I think it's me walking in my purpose. I genuinely believe that I'm meant to share my stories, that I meant to, I meant to, I meant to share my experiences.

Like, if anyone's followed my, me or my career, you'd know that I'm quite transparent about the things that I go through. And it's because of that. It's because it's impactful, you know? Can I read some of the lyrics? Oh. Would you allow me to do that? Yeah, of course.

You hit, you spit, you split. Ever why? Every. Every. Thank you. She's like, I wrote this song. She better get her right. She said, I wrote.

Every bit of me, you stole, you broke, you're cold. You're such a joke to me. For every last bruise you gave me, for every time I sat in tears, for the million ways you hurt me, I just want to tell you this, you broke my world, made me strong. Thank you. Messed up my dreams, made me strong. Thank you.

Yeah. What was going on in your life? I literally wrote that song in about 20 minutes. And I'd come off the phone after having an argument with my first boyfriend, who is the father of my oldest daughter, and he used to physically abuse me for our entire relationship. And I think me writing that song was kind of, me closing the chapter you know it wasn't it wasn't about it was it's not like a vengeful song like

it wasn't about revenge it was more about here's what i i say this a lot like there are there are things there are things in my life that have broken me but i'm always proud of what i do with the pieces and that that is something that you know so those were pieces like i was broken at the time because it might sound insane, but I didn't want to be, you know, I really wanted to have like a family. I really wanted to, you know, have a mom and the dad and the kids. Like, that's what I wanted. And I felt like I made a mistake, you know, not my daughter.

My children are never. ever mistakes but I felt like I got it wrong and and it's it's it's it's something that I carry forward in all of my relationships that have you know all of my relationships have failed all of my relationships have broken down all of my relationships have ended terribly and I always reflect on how did I contribute to them failing Okay. And it's not, I don't absorb them of their, their wrongdoing. I think that, I think, I just, I just think I've spent my time just desperate for love,

you know, desperate to know what it feels like. And I'm, and I'm going to create it by any means. But for me, writing that song, it was more of a, okay, I have, I have to close this. I have to close this chapter. In the last week, someone has told me that it's changed their life. That song is literally saved lives. Yeah. Yeah.

Think about that. Yeah. It's literally saved lives. Yeah. You know, some of the research coming in that just blew me away. Yeah. One out of four women in England will experience domestic abuse in their lifetime. Yeah.

Same thing in Ireland. Yeah. Roughly the same rates in the United States. Yeah. But this one is just, I mean, that's heartbreaking. Every 30 seconds in the UK, every 30 seconds a domestic. A domestic abuse-related call is made to the case. Yeah.

And I think I remember at the time releasing that song, like people didn't write songs like that. Do you know what I mean? Like it was so taboo. But I was like, if we're not having the conversation, how are we going to know that these things are happening? So at first it was just for me. And then when I discussed it with the label,

that I wanted to release it as a single. And they wanted to release it as a single as well. it became a bit of a movement, you know. It was a good song, but it was more about what we could talk about. Like I don't, I've never wanted to just be an artist who pushes out songs. Like,

I know a superstar is a great song, but it wasn't my favourite song of my own. Really? Because I just felt like, well, what's it about? What am I saying? that was that was how I felt I always wanted everything to you know to have some sort of substance yes and superstar is just a party song and it's a great party song and it's you know it's paid a lot of bills but um I'm just I I think I'm just that way inclined I love I love being a woman I love being

impactful I love being insightful and then to go on to have four daughters. Yes. Isn't there something? It's, you get one, one fella in there. Yeah. You know, it's just like, I don't know, I just, I just kind of feel like this is, this is the type of work I'm meant to be doing.

This is the type of impact I'm meant to be having. That relationship, then, was that your first relationship? Because I'm trying to get into, I'm trying to think about my timeline. The relationship timeline. Yeah. You know, it's like, let me piece this together because at an early age, 15, 18, you're out here building your career. Yes. But this is also when most people are beginning to experience their romantic relationships.

Yeah, yeah. Were you doing the same or was it just career focus? No, no, no, at the same time. So I don't know how I can say this, well, you know, without it sounding as harsh as the reality was, but I was doing, I was rising and becoming. and I don't know if I want to say it. No, no, I'll say it. So one of my videos is a video called Call Me. And I remember on the video shoot, on the video shoot,

just being assaulted by him. And nobody knew, nobody knew. And I went back out and finished the video. Yeah, I've never ever told anyone that. And this is So Call Me is one of my videos It was on

I think it was on the first album So I was with him Between the ages of 16 and 20 Okay So this is the relationship Where I would describe it as being groomed I was 16, he was 25 What does a 25 year old

One with a 16 year old And as I said I didn't even look 16 I didn't even look 16 When I recorded the Call Me video It would have been about 9 was before I'd had my daughter. But yeah.

And I actually I actually don't like telling stories like that because I read a book and it was saying about you know, when you retell a story, your body feels the trauma. Yes. And like even just in that moment, like I'm like, I remember it like it was yesterday.

I remember it happening. And I remember going back out and being like, okay, let's get back on camera, you know. And like, and I remember someone in the room kind of suspected that something had happened. But I was like, oh, no, no, no, I'm fine. And I feel, I feel like that's quite symbolic as to how I've lived my life, you know, as I have to, I have to specify that I think it's as a black woman. I think there are so many aspects of life that knock us down and we just shake it off and carry on. You know, we shake it off and we go back out and do the most incredible things, you know, to do that. Yeah, I was 19.

I was 19 on that day. And to have that kind of experience, you know, before even hitting true adulthood is awful. But it was the beginning of me, you know, bouncing back from BS, you know. And it's not, it's not a trait or a skill that I want to have. It's not a trait or a skill that I want to pass on to my daughters. It's not something that, you know, I, you know, when people say to me, oh, gosh, you're so strong. My instant, like, emotional reaction is, yeah, but I don't want to be. I don't this is not this is not what I want for myself

I want to I want to be soft I want to be held I want to know what that feels like like how does it feel to be a flower like and and early in your life at 19 for example yeah perhaps and I don't want to put words in your mouth but perhaps you're interpreting what's happening to you as some form of love well yeah because because I equate passion. So to me,

obviously I don't think like this now. But looking back, someone loves me so much that they're just enraged by something that I might do. Like, that's passion. It's insane. It's abuse. It's just abuse.

There's no, there's nothing romantic about it whatsoever. And, but again, it's like, well, you're not taught what love looks like, but it feels like, you know, you're not taught how to honour yourself, how to set boundaries for yourself, you're not taught that, you know, hitting is not okay. Now, even, you know, growing up in a Jamaican household, again, it feels like a betrayal, but so many of us, you know, grew up with people around us getting beaten, you know, as a form of punishment, you do something bad, you get hit.

I would never hit my children. Like, never, because, you know, because, and because I ended up in a physically abusive relationship and I normalized, you know, well, if, because what I was saying to myself was, well, if you just keep him happy, if you just don't get him angry, if you keep doing things right, then you won't get hit. No? And you're walking on eggshells?

At all times. At all times. At all times. But, you know, what I teach my daughters is no one is ever supposed to hit you. And if they do, it's a rap. It's a rap. Did you end that relationship? Oh, yeah.

Yeah. So I ended the relationship when just after I'd had my daughter and, I was holding her in my arms and he hit me while I had her in my arms. And I remember, as I said, I love to do self-reflection and self-talking. And I was just like, okay, you've chosen this for yourself for years, but you're going to choose this for this little baby. You know, she was six weeks old, brand new. Am I going to choose this for her?

And of course, the answer was absolutely not. And I got up and left the next day. Yeah. Look at that. You know, I often say. say that, you know, we are set, whether you are, whatever, if someone is religious or not, I'll say you, you are set, children. Yeah, yeah.

To be your angel. Oh, my gosh. Oh, my gosh. To be your savior. My, my children have saved me so many times. They, like, and I mean, like, every single one of them. I said, like, I've got 18, but I've got four children and four daughters. and I think what I find most profound about having four daughters

is that they are all totally different personalities but I see myself in all of them and I see myself at different stages of my life I feel like I'm raising myself and so I all like every interaction don't get me wrong I obviously get things wrong but I always think about what did you need when this was you because you know what this feels like

What did you want to hear? What did you need to feel? You know, and that's how I show up for my daughters. And in turn, I have the most beautiful relationship. I feel so fulfilled just getting to be their mom and getting to feel like this is something I'm acing. Like, I feel like. I got this right.

Yeah, yeah. Like, as a mother, I feel like I, I am doing an incredible job and I love it. I've really consciously parent my children. And in terms of being saved, they have, like there are decisions that I've made for myself, even like my last relationship, my ex tried to come back.

And I was just like absolutely not. Not like these are my daughters are watching. There are so many things that I choose or don't choose because it's like my daughters are watching. My daughters have a front row seat and I am so transparent with my girls. That hit me. My daughters have a front row seat. Yeah.

Yeah. That's profound. Yeah. Is so with your first daughter. Yeah. That enabled, she saved you. Yeah. Yes.

She got you out of that relationship. So then the next relationship. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We don't have to name names. Yeah. What happened?

happened in that relationship. How does that happen? Because at that age, you are a single mob. Yeah. But you're a pop star. Yeah. Or R&B star. Yeah, yeah. No, no, I was a pop star. I'm a pop star. I'm sorry? You're a rock star. That's what you were. You were a rock star out here. You know? So, so you're a start. So this is a different. This is a different space here. Yeah. Yeah. So he was a footballer. And at that time, it was very like, posh and Bex was like, were the big thing. So we were like the black poxianbex. That's what they would call us in the papers.

We were not. But yeah. And to be honest, I think I just wanted someone who didn't hit me, which sounds again, like, at my age now, looking back, I'm just like, wow, like the bar was so low. And I think the issue with him was just the cheating. like constant cheating again

I we share a daughter and she's just yeah she's just amazing she's amazing like I think I think when it comes to my daughters like

I have no doubt that these particular children are meant to be here these particular you know so as much as I may recount a relationship in a negative way, I don't regret anything.

And if I live my life again, I would do exactly the same things because I want these children. Yes, yes. So did you end up leaving that relationship? And you were married. Yeah, yeah, we're married. Yeah, yeah. So you got married. Yeah, yeah.

And this is the thing. I always try to evolve and do better. So it's like, okay, I've done the right thing. We got married. we got married after we had like a huge cheating scandal. But I believe, you know, I'm such a sucker for love. I believe in love. And, yeah, I believe in when he said he wouldn't do it again.

And then like maybe less than a couple of months into the marriage, he did it again. So it was, it was. it became, I would say, like a really, a really volatile relationship because I just felt like, well, I can't, I can't leave, I can't, I can't, I can't end this relationship as well. You know?

Why? Because I've got two children by two different men and it's just not what I want for myself. That's, you know, there's a huge sense of shame. a huge stigma associated with having, you know, multiple fathers for your children, you know, huge stigma. And because of that, I stayed single for nine years after my relationship with him ended. And then my daughter made herself a sandwich. So let me explain.

I was going to say, hold on. I'm going to say, hold on. So. So my daughter was nine years old and she decided to make herself a sandwich. And I was just like, oh my gosh, they're not going to need me much longer. So she was nine. My other daughter would have been about 13. And I'm just like, oh, it's just going to be me.

And at the time I lived in a massive house in Birmingham, I was like, he's just going to be me in this house. I need to find a man. I was literally like, I need to go out there. and start dating. Okay. I see. I see.

Yeah. Which, so I did. I did. And then, yeah, I had like a little boyfriend. And then. A little boyfriend. Yeah, it was like a little boyfriend. It's a little thing.

But it wasn't, you know, it didn't become anything serious. And then I met my husband, my ex-husband. Yeah, my second ex-husband. Oh, my God. Oh, it's fair. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

And we had like a whirlwind romance. And I've again like, so this time it was, you know, he was just, he adored me. Or so I thought he definitely didn't. But I thought he absolutely adored me. And I thought this is it. Like this is exactly it. We got married after five months. We didn't have sex before marriage, but there's only five months.

So, hmm. But that was intentional. Oh, yeah, yeah. Because for me, it's like, well, you've got that wrong. So how can I get it right? I'm always in the pursuit of improving myself and my choices. And I'm sorry, you got, what did you think you got had gotten wrong in the past? In the past.

As it relates to not having sex. I mean, to be honest. honest, I'm not the type of person that sleeps around or anything like that, but I obviously had slept with the boyfriend before. Oh, I see. Yeah. So your thought is... And that didn't amount to anything.

So for me, there was a sense of shame. I've got, I don't know what that is, but I've got this thing where I think really deeply about sharing my body with someone. I just feel like that's a really deeply spiritual event. and I know it's just it's just me it's just me um but then so I so I felt like you know what and and in the in the periods in between being in relationships I'm completely like completely celebrate like I don't I'm just not that type of person okay and so um in a way I think I think for me it's kind of like a reset you know I have this idea that I'm resetting myself and

preparing myself and making sure that I'm not muddying the waters of my mind. Like I want to, I want to be clear when I go into a relationship. I want to be ready. I want to be focused. I want to be like, oh, okay, I can have a relationship. This is interesting. And I say it's interesting because some people, they look at sex as this is part of my litmus test to see if I should be in a relationship with this person.

Yeah. And you're saying, no. No. No. So you told him right from the beginning, this is not going to happen. Yeah. And he was. Oh, he was fine.

He was fine. Okay. Because he was in love with me immediately. Okay. That was all I thought. And then also, just to set the stage. So you're celibate for nine years going into this. Yeah.

You've been dating. Yeah. But nothing serious. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And now you feel like, okay. Yeah. I found him.

Yeah. I found him. Okay. And, yeah. And then we get married and I get pregnant maybe at six months. Wow. So and then we had a really difficult pregnancy. My waters broke very early.

That was quite scary. But yeah, we were married for five years. And then I'm going to fast forward now because I was very happy. I was very, very happy. But again, I've got a different take in hindsight. I was very, very happy. At the time, I was happy. Okay.

Then when I was three months pregnant with my last daughter, he just said, I'm leaving. My husband? We were, in my mind, happy. We were on a baby moon like two weeks earlier in Jamaica. Like, we were having a ball. And then that conversation was just... How does that happen?

How's a conversation like that happened? What's wrong with you? I'm leaving. That's how the conversation went. Just in the middle of a normal Sunday. And I can't, I, again, you see, I'm feeling it now. I'm feeling the emotion because I have never been so confused in all my life. It was just like, but what, what, what do you mean?

You know, at that point we had four-year-old, you know, we built this blended family. And in my mind at that time, life was beautiful. We had conversations after and what came out of it was that I was too much was what was being said. I was too much. I was too ambitious. I didn't want to be humble and humility looked like. So, okay, and I think this requires explanation. I am someone who is very happy to defy conventional rules, as I'm sure you can tell.

And so I was the breadwinner. I was the one who went out to work and he was basically like, basically like he was a house husband I think what's transpired is that he wasn't happy being a house husband and also his family put a lot of pressure on him because I shouldn't be I shouldn't be the breadwinner

but for me it was like I'm the one who earns the most money so it doesn't make sense for you to go out and get a job and not be able to sustain the lifestyle that I can sustain and maintain and I thought it was okay but then clearly it wasn't

and I'd just gotten a new job and I think it was just yeah it was just too much and I think what it boils down to is him maybe feeling and I don't want to speak on his behalf but this is how I've kind of reconciled it and how I make sense of it is that

my my willingness to work and my ambition emasculated him in the process. But then it got really, really ugly. I don't want to go into how it did, but it got to the point where, I mean, yeah, he doesn't exist in our world anymore, you know, which, yeah. I actually don't, I still don't feel like I have the words to explain it.

Right. You know, and I'm sorry. And for me, I feel like I've experienced so much abandonment in my life already. So to have that type of abandonment as well, so unexpectedly, so out of the blue. It felt like the final nail in the coffin. And I think when I say that I, sorry, I was absolutely broken because I didn't protect my kids from it. because I didn't protect my daughters from it and I didn't see it coming and I wasn't,

I didn't know how to fix what they'd seen happen for particularly my elder girls to witness something like that happening. Like literally the rug being pulled from everyone's underneath everyone and not only that, someone who had been a good man to us turn into the absolute

just the absolute opposite. And I think particularly not having, not having an explanation, but not only that, going through a pregnancy, having a really, really difficult pregnancy, one of my daughters was just about to start her GCSEs, my four-year-old was just about to start school, and my eldest had just turned 21.

this is like these are pivotal moments in my daughter's lives and I'm pregnant and we've just been abandoned or you know and it didn't what I another thing that I think to explain it would be I think anyone if anyone wants to hurt me you know aim for my children you know it's an awful awful thing to say and it's not the first time people have have done so. But this is definitely the worst that it has happened. And I feel like that's exactly, you know, I think the problem is I don't know why someone would want to hurt me like that. I am such like, I'm such good vibes. Like I love being good to people. I love looking after people. I love loving people. I love feeding people. I love providing people. I love providing.

in a safe space for people. There are so many children that have come in and out of my home that know love, that feel, you know, that have felt joy and, you know, his family, him, like, I never did anything but loved them. And so I've just, I've never been so confused and hurt. And then, but then I had dream. So dream is my, my fourth daughter.

And my older two girls, honestly, without them, I wouldn't be alive. Like, they literally, they literally, they stepped up in ways that I wouldn't believe. They fed me, they clothed me, they bathed me, they brought me to the toilet, they did everything. They looked after their little sister. they saved me. Like they did and, you know, to a point where like there were moments where, there were moments where I couldn't walk. I couldn't talk.

Like, I was just, I've never felt like that. And I think, I think one of the things that I've always done is bad things might happen, but I'm just like, okay, it's cool. Don't worry. We're fine because my daughters are watching. And I think the most painful thing I've ever experienced is breaking down with my daughter's watching. That's the most difficult thing I've ever experienced. But it also became a motivator because I was just like,

this is not, they're not just going to see me break. They're going to, I'm going to show them and this is how you get up. Because if there's one thing I know how to do is how to get up. and even though I doubted it, I'm not going to lie to you, I really doubted it. There were points where I was just like, I'm not going to survive this.

When you're looking, when you're looking at your children and they're like, listen, they're not saying it, but where's my mommy? Like, where is she? Like, you know, there's a point where it's like, these girls are counting on you

and there's a brand new baby and she's just met me. Yes. And I want her to know, you know, I want her to know the great me. And so... Can I ask, though? Yeah. Who is in your life supporting you outside of your children at this time?

No one. It's so sad. And I'm the type of person where I will, I will, like, jaw into myself and just close the whole world out. And that's what I've done for maybe the past almost three years. I've just, you know, I felt so hurt and betrayed by the people that I felt should have been there that I missed out on getting support from people who were offering support. You know, there are people that I owe apologies to that I didn't allow to support me.

And I can be honest about that. definitely at a point in my life where I'm ready to do that as well because I created an environment where my daughters had no no other choice but to step up they became my they became my support system and I relied 100% on them all while one of them's in her 21st year and the other ones doing her GCSEs and they will tell you I have apologised so much they've seen me cry so many times because I shouldn't have done that. You're saying you shouldn't have put that on them? Yeah, because I know what it feels like to have so much responsibility as a young girl.

Like, I've always wanted my children to just stay in fairyland and be, you know, carefree. I definitely didn't want them to see me. Yeah. In that space? No. When you think back throughout your entire life, would you say that was, that was, that was, the worst moment in your life. Oh, gosh. Oh, absolutely. The worst. And it, and it, and it lasted, I'd say the worst of it lasted for about a year.

It's straight. And, yeah, we didn't speak to anyone else. We didn't communicate with other people. We just, because it was like, it was at a point where it was just like, okay, what's the bare minimum? And the bare minimum was we need to wash, we need to eat, need to drink. And, you know, there were, there were timed, like, We weren't laughing. We weren't doing stuff. We were just, we were literally just surviving. Did you leave the house? Well, yeah, we kind of had to.

So, you know, the baby needed doctor's appointments. Okay. I sent my daughter to school. I sent her to school. I'm a homeschooling mom. But I sent my daughter to school because I just knew I didn't have the capacity to do, to give her everything that she deserved to have. And so, yeah, so I sent her to school, which she loved, by the way.

She loved until she didn't. I hear that. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So how many years ago was this, was this moment? So in May will be three years. Yeah. Three years.

It's not long ago. No, no, no. That's why I'm still. And this is another thing. I feel like, I feel like my daughters have gotten something. incredible lessons. They, they now know that healing is not linear,

you know, it doesn't just, you know, I can be happy as Larry and then, you know, I can have a conversation and I'll just be like,

you know, as I said, like the amount of times of apologised, particularly to my elder children, you know, because I just hate that experience for them. But I do know

that they will carry forth some of these ideas and, and experiences with them. And also, for one of a better term, they've become little gangsters. And I love that for them. And to your point of,

and I love it when you just said, they see me down, right? But they're going to see me get back. Yeah. They're going to see it. Yeah. And I feel as if the last few years, the last three years,

yeah. It's been you like, okay, I'm a crawl. Oh, yeah. Yeah. And I'm going to walk. Yep. And then I'm going to run. Literally.

Literally, literally. And a part of that, a part of that was speaking about it. So I remember like when it got to about two years, I did a TV show and I spoke about what had happened. So what I just explained to you. And I remember, you know, that when you're in the public eye and you speak about something like that, so many people, so many people reached out in so many different ways.

and you've realized like how many of us are experiencing horrific traumas while just living life, you know, because I was carrying, I was, I was going to work, I was on Holyoke's, I was, you know, I was, because I had to earn money, I had to, you know, I had plans. I wanted to move. You know, there were, there were things that I was continuing to do. I was still working. I was still showing up. I was still showing up on social media. and no one would have ever known that, oh yeah, I'm like crying in the bed with my girls every single night. Like, you know, they just wouldn't know that that was happening.

And I think there's a lot of women who are living these dual lives. And then there just came a point where I was like, yeah, I'm not doing that anymore. Not doing it. I'm just not doing it. I'm going to talk about it. And then, you know, in the middle of the healing and I'm going to do something, even greater than before. I'm going to be somebody even better than before. Yes. Yeah. Yes. Where does the inspiration come? Because there are many people. I agree. Lots of women, lots of men.

Yeah. Yes. Who are in a position right now who believe they're in that moment when you said I was in that low, that point. Yeah. They're in that point right now. And they're trying to find hope. Yeah. They're trying to find something to aspire. too. How were you able to find the hope? So for me, I think I was just, I think my whole thing was just like, don't let them win. There are a lot of people or a group of people that really wanted to see me down, that really wanted their absence to be so impactful that I could never go and do anything again. Now I was just like, absolutely not. Not with my girls watching. No? And so two, the both things, you know, my daughters are watching me and I know that you're watching me too and you want me to fail. And I think there are many moments throughout my life that have been motivated by people doubting me or people actively wanting to see me fall. And so for me, I just kind of, I think it all starts with, you know, what action are you going to take? What are you actually going to?

going to do. It's so important. You know, it's not, it's not just hope and prayers. It's not just, you know, I'm not, it's not that. What am I going to do? And it's exactly what you mentioned earlier. Like, I'm going to crawl. I'm going to, you know, I'm going to, I'm going to put my, I'm going to put my two feet on the floor out of my bed. That's, and that's the first thing. And if I do that, then maybe I can get up tomorrow. And then the next day, maybe I can, you know, crawl across the floor and I'm talking literally, like literally. I'm curious though at this point because you said you're doing Hollyoaks so you're beginning really I would say the TV part of your career.

Yeah, yeah. I started on Holly Oaks maybe about a few months. I had dream in October and I started on on Holly Oaks in March. In March, okay. At this point, do you think, well, maybe I'll start singing again? You know, I can do shows. I can go on tour. Whereas do you have no interest at that point to sing?

I perform, should I say. So I mentioned hindsight a lot. So when I look back on my whole relationship that I had, my daughters mentioned this to me as well, I didn't sing. I had no interest. I'd probably do a couple of shows here and there, but I never, I wasn't singing around my house.

And I'm a singer. I love to sing. but the fact that I wasn't doing that is such a red flag in hindsight. Well, now I sing all the time. Now I sing all the time. And yeah, and like at the beginning of this year, I decided that I'd love to record another album. Really?

Yeah. You're going to record another one? No, this is great. Explosives. This is good. This is good. We're Beanie Man too. We need Beanie Man back.

Come on now. That would be amazing. I think for me as well, you know, it's not, it's not about chasing stardom. It's not about like being at the top of the charts or anything like that. It's just I love, I love it. Like, I love it so much. I love performing. I love recording.

I love writing. Yes. And, and also like, it's my favorite way to tell stories. Like, it's my favorite way to be impactful, you know. And like, yeah, I've already started writing. How good. I can't imagine. I mean, to think that this is a passion and that you're coming back to it,

this album is just going to be crazy. We hope so. But I think for me it's kind of like I genuinely feel, you know when people are like, oh, I'm living my best life. I genuinely feel like I am currently the best version of myself. Yes. And I just. thing to myself like imagine doing all of that at your best.

Remember I did it, you know, I did it while being beaten up or while being cheated on. Imagine doing it when life is amazing. Life is amazing. Can we talk about how amazing life is? Yeah. This is very important. Because life is good. We get another Jamila album.

Life is good. Life is good. Yeah. So what about life makes it so good right now? So. In March of 2024, I decided to move to Dubai with my girls. And the reason we moved to Dubai is just because I felt as if I felt like we needed a new start. But I felt like that was the perfect place for us to do it.

Dubai is a fantastic place for women and girls, despite what Western society tells you about the Middle East. Why so? It's so safe. women and children are exalted. Like mothers, oh my gosh, mothers are put on a pedestal. And no one cares how your children got here. Like it's just the most beautiful, supportive. I feel like I have a village in every environment.

Everywhere I go, I feel supported. I feel cherished. And my girls are, some could describe it as a full sense of security because we're from the Western world. But living in the Middle East as a female, as a black woman, it's like, it's, it's like, what is this? What is this? And why didn't I know this existed?

I live without anxiety. I don't fear anything. I don't fear for my safety. I don't fear for my children. I, I am, every experience is a, beautiful one. You know, there is so much attention to detail to, to well-being. There's a huge, the culture is really, is really, I would say that everything is built around your well-being. Almost every interaction you have, you know, you can go to the supermarket and they ask you,

are you happy? Yeah. Like, are you happy as a question? You're like, yeah? Yeah, I think so. But more and more, there is a whole section of the government which is dedicated to the happiness of the people in Dubai and the people is everyone. There's no, I don't feel, I just, I don't feel other. I don't feel, I don't feel stigma, you know, no one questions whether you're a single mother or a married mother. You're just a mother.

And you are told, like, in every scenario, like, you know, respect your mother. Like, put, you know, your mother is a queen. And that's every single mother is given that treatment. I will go to a restaurant. When I first went there, dream was a little baby. I'll go to a restaurant. I'm trying to eat my food. Do you know how it is?

Yes, yes. Someone in a restaurant will come and take your baby so you can eat your, no, you're like, at first, obviously. you're like, no. And then you're like, hold on, this is, this is what support looks like. You know, I'm here by myself with my children. Someone has spotted that. Someone has identified it. And she's happy.

I'm happy. I've never heard of that happening. That's incredible. Yeah. I am, I am now getting to show up, not only as the best mother I can be, but also I feel like I'm the best version of myself. I feel like I'm. the healthiest I've ever been.

You know, I feel like I'm the happiest I've ever been. And also that my children, my children, they just, they feel secure. And I feel like that's probably something I've not managed to provide for them in the past. Because I've always felt like someone's missing, you know, we're meant to have a dad in the house. And whilst I'm not, I've not. For one second, am I denouncing the importance of a father? Like, absolutely not. I would much prefer to have a father in the house.

I, we just don't have one. So my option here is to live with a void. Whereas over there, the void is invisible. It doesn't exist. And like me, my children have many fathers. Like there are many men that they come into contact with every day. So for instance, like when you go to like play places or gymnastics or if there are men, there are as many men there as there are women. So normally, you know, any places that provide entertainment or or cultured, especially for girls, it's usually female led.

Right. But that's, that's wrong. you know, there are as many men there as well, and they, you know, they hold in their hands. They're getting to have experiences that they, that should be normalized. Yes. You know? Yes. This is, this is, this is beautiful for you.

Yeah. Yeah. Because you can see how, you know, so in the past, since you're, you watch, we need to talk, right? Yes. You've probably heard me talk at least 50 times. Yeah. about Carol Rift's six dimensions of psychological wellbeing. But you're proving her theory.

This whole idea is that when you have, she talks about environment, when you feel like you're in the right environment. Yes. And you feel like you're connected socially. Yeah. When you have goals or when you have a new vision for your life, when you begin to get self-acceptance, right? When you have autonomy, when you have these six dimensions,

then life becomes incredible. Absolutely. New opportunities open up. You know, you become light and bright like you are now. Yeah. And that seems like so that move in March of 2024 was pivotal. Oh my gosh. For you, it was life changing.

Absolutely. I believe that making that move gave us a freedom that we were never going to have over here. And I'm not, I'm not suggesting everyone moves to Dubai. but what I would suggest is that people do become concerned with their environments and how they are, how you're showing up for yourself. Like choosing yourself, that's what's life-changing. It's not because I moved to Dubai. I was just aware of what I needed.

I needed a freedom. I needed to feel supported. I needed to know my children were safe. I needed to rest. Yes. I spent about a month just chilling, doing absolutely nothing. I also felt as if I had lived a huge portion of my life in a very masculine space. And so I also really tapped into my femininity.

This is going to sound really weird. But like, I remember. remember I set myself a little challenge of like wearing a dress every day for 30 days. Like I'm the type of girl like I like wearing a track suit or whatever. And I was like, no, no, no. You're going to wear a dress every single day. And it really, it might sound like a weird experiment, but it really changed so much for me.

Just, you know, the way that I showed up, the way that I walked, the way that I allowed myself to be looked after. Because I think when you're not looked after, when you're when other people have been careless with you, you become super hyper independent to the point where you can't accept help. And I even felt myself on this trip

coming back to the UK. Today I was struggling up the stairs with like a suitcase and a guy came and offered me help. And I was just like, yeah. Whereas before I would be, I don't know, no, no, I've got this. Do you know what I mean? But like, I was like, oh yeah. Like I say yes

When someone offers me help which I am telling you Like There are so many ways in which I have said no to help Because I got this, I'm strong Sure I could do this So you're saying you're open now Oh my goodness

I'm not even open I'm actively seeking environments In which I feel looked after Yes And you know I I know for sure you know, like, I feel like a lot of people will only put this,

connect something like this to a relationship, but for me, it's, I want it in everything. Like my daughters will tell you, like I make everything an experience, whether it's a meal, whether it's, because I feel so fortunate to have made it.

And when I say I've made it, you know, as I described, being at rock bottom to now being at the highest height, the highest height I've ever been to do that. And with my daughter's watching. Yes. When you say the highest height, you're talking about the highest height of your well-being.

Of my well-being. That's really what, yes. Yes. Of my well-being. So Carol Rifts, is it the six dimensions of psychological well-being? Yes. So you mentioned that. And I'm a huge researcher.

and I went out I went into chat GPT I'm obsessed with it and so I wanted it deeply explained to me and so me and chat GPT were going back and forth and like how do I apply that to my life how can you know how can that benefit me how can it benefit my children how can I you know applied and what I discovered is that a lot of it I'd already started doing unconsciously and I was just like oh my gosh and to me that's what success feels like I don't think I've ever felt successful until now. Really? Yeah.

For me, I think taking control of my well-being and my children's well-being is how I've felt successful. And I think, you know, to a lot of people, I think, you know, making lots of money is where success is. And don't get me wrong, I love money. I'm not going to lie. I love money. But I don't, it doesn't determine success.

Because to me, money is a variable. I can have a small amount of money. I can have lots of money. I would like to still maintain my happiness regardless of where that variable is but I wouldn't be happy if my environment was variable because I think that's where the safety is lost. Yes.

You know? You know, this is another nerdy one. Okay. But you like this is, you know, Maslow's hierarchy of needs. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And ultimately, that's what that lower, if you think, it's really seven rungs, but if you're thinking about the lower third,

is that's what it's about. Yeah. It's about you knowing that you can be fed You knowing that you have shelter, but really what that shelter means is that you're safe. Exactly. Exactly. And when you have that need taking care of, you can move up to connection. Yeah.

Belonging. Yeah. Yeah. And so you have fully taken care of. Yeah. Almost all of those rungs because you have. Yeah. You know where I'm going.

You know where I'm going. You know where I'm going. You know. You're already there. See, I'm slow. I'm slow. Because you have these pieces taken care of, but you know what many people say is the highest rung of Moslow's hierarchy of needs is self-actualization. Yes, yes.

And the theory is that in order to reach self-actualization is often best to reach it with someone else. Yeah, not necessarily romantic. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But with someone. Yeah. We need people for emotional regulation in these things. So what is your outlook? on relationships and on love now.

So I think one of the things that I wanted to achieve was to feel loved without having a partner. And the reason I wanted to do that is because I felt that I felt that I've lived my life with this constant void, whether it's not having my dad around, not having a partner, you know, having a failed relationship, it always felt like, oh, well, because there's not a man there, I'm, you know, there's something,

I'm such a perfectionist, like anything I do, you know, if I'm cooking, I want it to be the best meal you've ever tasted. Like, if I'm, if I'm organising something, I want it to look incredible, like, and, you know, I've mentioned this to you before, like, I just feel like, but just with, when it comes to men, I just, I just don't, I don't know what it is that I don't get right. But I think the thing that I wasn't getting right was I wasn't loving myself. I wasn't showing myself. Like now I adore myself.

I'm so proud of me. I'm like I think the most important relationship I will have is the one that I have with myself. And I wanted to nurture that and I wanted that. I wanted to fill up my cup and I wanted to know how to do that. For instance, you know, what types of exercises make me happy? What type of food makes me happy? How do I like my friendships? What do I want my relationships with my children to be, you know, what do I, a lot of my

focus is what do I get out of it? Not just what can I give. Because I'm such a giver. I've always been someone who would just, I will give even when my cup is empty. but that's not me loving myself. That's not me honouring myself and that's me living without boundaries and that's why I get taken advantage of.

And so I've been really focused on making sure that I fill up my own cup before I give to anyone else, even my children. But now I feel like I have spent, I've spent a good amount of time really, really like niching down on what it is that I need and I have it and I know how to look after myself I know how to love myself and then while it's not a void I would love to have a partner I would love to I'd love to have a partner but I don't just want to have any man I want

someone who looks after themselves in the way that I look after myself I want someone who cares about their well-being who is thoughtful someone who doesn't need to be doesn't need me to

I don't know how to explain this doesn't need me to fill up their cop I want someone to come to me with their copful like confident ambitious you know that they feel I don't want to baby someone. I've got children and I adore them

and I love being their mom. I love nurturing. But I want to be the baby. I think that's what it is. I think that's what I'm saying. I remember because we, I mean, we met when you came to Slav's Good Aid. Yeah, we've had many conversations there.

Many conversations. Yeah. But you know what stands out to me the most is you were describing the man that you want You say, he needs to eat sushi. I'm like, oh, he needs to eat sushi. But I understand. No, I fully understand.

And can I say on the well-being, I think, that you actually, you represent why the myth around values being the most important ingredient for a partnership is wrong. It is a myth. And I write about this in my new book. Yes, I've seen. Because what you have described in. terms of the partners that you've had in the past is you've shared some of the same values. Exactly. But what you didn't have was well-being.

And that's the reason why well-being is the most important ingredient in yourself and in your partner. And that's why when you say, I want a partner that has high well-being, then you're good. Yeah. Now, of course, you have to recognize what that is. Exactly. Because you have that in your life, you can better recognize it. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. I guess Yeah, I guess it's just something that I've never seen as important. And I can either spend my time thinking about, you know, all the times that I didn't know this. Or I can just move forward with new information. I am aware that there are certain things I will never have. But I think, again, because my children, my children get to reap the benefits of everything that I know now. you know, I get to have certain conversations with them that would never have with me,

that I know that my journey is absolutely worth it, you know, for the things that I can teach my daughters, I know that there are four young women that are going to go out into the world way more whole than I was. Maybe not complete, but definitely, you know, with higher self-esteem, as I said, like they're, they, they, some of the things that they say because like I've been trying to dip my toe into the dating pool

I'm still not like yeah it's not it's not going well and just because like I don't know like I'm you know I say all of this I know what I need I do know what I need but then sometimes that kind of oh my gosh does he like me or oh my gosh like how can I how can it's like I want to accelerate

the process which um is silly So. But you know, you're dipping your toe in. Yeah. But it makes sense that you're going to dip it in and you're going to say it's too cold. It's too warm. And before you would have just jumped in. Literally. But now you know that you need the temperature to be right. Exactly. You need to be precise. Exactly. And there is beauty in that. And also when I was when I was younger, I read an essay called Let the Circle be broken. Right. And the essay was about how, what, ends up happening to so many of us is that we fall into these generational curses. So the way that our grandparents showed love and it could have been in a toxic form, then our parents see love that way, and then they teach us to see love that way, and then we then love our children in a toxic way. And this is why I have so much respect and love for my father. Because my father came from

a very challenged family environment. Yeah. And he didn't have his father in his life, you know, entirely. And without having a father in his life, he was able to be an incredible father to me. Yeah. You know what I mean? Yeah. And through that, he broke the circle.

Yep. And now, with my boys, it's like, you know, it's the same with your girl. We should actually talk about, because I have a 14-year-old and 11-year-old. You have the arranged things. Yeah, yeah, let's do. I'm for-arranged relationships. He too. Jamaica is like, good.

Listen. You should talk after this. We'll talk. We'll talk. But it's one of those where, okay, so the circle has been broken, you know, and I can't wait to see how they will parent. Right. You have broken.

You've broken. And I think, so I think what people need to understand. is that is that is completely intentional. There are so many things that were passed down to me that affected me negatively, affected the choices that I made, the, you know, even the ways that I showed up. And I feel like for me,

being a generational curse breaker is like, is such a flex. Like, I'm just, I think I love that. Like, I love that. There are certain things that are not normalized for my girls. There are certain things. so many things like, you know, my, my two-year-old, I teach her about setting boundaries for herself, you know, do you want to give this person a hug?

No? Okay. Right. You know? And just things, things like that, like, it all starts. It starts from the moment they're born. Like, and I feel, I feel I've been so intentional because I know what it feels like to lack. I know what it feels like to be yearning for something for love. And one thing my girls will never do is doubt whether or not they loved.

Were they, yeah. Like, no. This is it. This is it. All right. When you think about your dream partner. Yeah. So is your dream partner, you think, in Dubai?

In the UK. All right, how about this? I have, I have gentleman A. Yeah. He lives in Dubai. Uh-huh. Right. I have a gentleman B, just like gentleman A, just as charming, well-being is high, and he lives in the UK.

Yeah. But then I have gentlemen C, just as charming, just as attractive as A and B, and he lives in Jamaica. Which door are we going to, door A, B, or C? So I know that what I want is completely unconventional. I want him to be as far away as possible. Oh, really? So my ideal relationship is someone who definitely does not live in the same city, preferably a different country. Jamaica sounds nice.

But UK is just as nice. I think for me, I want something separate. I want to be able to visit my relationship. I don't want to live in it. I want someone who has their own life, who is pursuing their own things. And so I saw an interview the other day with Cheryl Lee Ralph. You know who that is? Yeah.

Do you know that she lives apart? Like she lives in a totally different state to her husband. No, I did not. No. Yeah. And it's been for 20 years. They have a very, she's very happily married. She's very happy in her relationship.

But they just live apart. And I think also I remember Helena Bonham Carter and her husband, Tim Burton, they also live. I think they live next door to each other. And like to me, that sounds perfect. Like that, that, and it's always sounded perfect. And this is another thing. I, I've always, especially when it comes to relationships, I've been someone who would like squeeze into, you know,

squeezing, was it a round peg into a square hole? Like, because this is what society says it's supposed to be like. And now, now I've come to reconcile because it's like, I've done everything that you've told me I'm supposed to do and that this is how it is. And to be honest, I don't like sharing my space. I don't like sharing my drawers and my wardrobes, my bathroom. I would much prefer if you live somewhere else, preferably another city.

You can visit. Yes, I can just visit you or you can visit me. And then it's exciting. Like, I love, I love dating. And I think one of the things that I've always, kind of wanted is to kind of keep that feeling alive, that kind of excitement, the anticipation. I don't really, I don't, I just have to be honest, I don't think I enjoy domesticity. I don't think I enjoy that, you know.

I tell you what, you know, I would have, I would have tried to debate this. Yeah. You know, but I've reached a point where I fully see that society. has given us a script. Yeah. And said, the society said, follow this script. Yeah. Or you will be penalized.

Yeah. And how you will be penalized is shame. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Right? You're not in a nuclear family. You're in a blended family? Shame.

Yeah. Raised that child by you? Yeah. Yeah. You're living apart from your husband? Shame on you. You know what I mean? Yeah.

But that is the script. Mm-hmm. And I think that the more we live according to our own beliefs and our own values. Yeah. the higher our happiness. So one of the questions that I ask when I'm speaking to someone is like, what laws have you decided for yourself? Like not,

not religious, not like, you know, what laws have you decided upon for yourself? What do you live by? What do you stand by? What's important? Because I feel like we are all given a set of rules.

And there's a great book called The Four Agreements. And it's just, yes. It's just basically about what do you agree with and it's about going through life and, you know, really analyzing the rules and regulations that you're set by society and but you're supposed to decide, I agree with that. I don't agree with that. Yeah, I think that's, I think that aligns with what I'm about. And I think one of the reasons that we can hit a brick wall is because some of us just want to be good. I have wanted just to be good for such a long time. I wanted to be. seen as a good, like a good girl, I guess, you know, so I wanted to be seen to do. So when I got, when I got married the last time, I was just like, yes, I've done it, you know. Because you've checked the box. Yeah. I've got the, you know, I've got the, I've got the, I've got the, I've got the husband, I've got the children, you know, the, the blending of our families. Like, it was just

so beautiful to me and I just loved it. And I still, I still, I still, I still believe in it. I still, I believe in marriage. I believe in love, you know, I, I, I want my daughters to find incredible relationships and have whatever relationship they would like to have for themselves. You know, my eldest daughter, she wants every traditional thing. And I love that for her. And I want her to pursue it. But I also want to live as an example for my children that, you know, there are also other options. Yes. You know, I know why I'm choosing this option now. So I know that at this stage and this level of experience, I know I'm choosing this option now because I feel like I don't feel safe.

I wouldn't feel safe combining my life with a man right now. But the most empowering, I think, message there is, I am choosing. I'm choosing, exactly. And when I look throughout your life now, understanding your story fully is that you were being chosen, you were being selected, you were being told. And now you're saying, nope, I'm going to choose. Absolutely. even if it looks, even if it doesn't look the way that it's supposed to, you know,

I get, I get that, you know, I get that I'm a weirdo and I lean fully into that. Yeah, but, but you're not. You're not. Now, we've talked about quite a bit here. Yeah. But I want to just stop and give the floor to you. Is there anything that we have not discussed that you want to make sure that we touch upon? I think, I think, I think, I think, and it's, it's a strange thing for me to say because I've told stories.

I think one of the things that I want to recommend to people is to stop telling the story. And the reason I say that is because I feel like we give so much power to our trauma sometimes by retelling the story. And I understand the power in telling the story. I do. But I think women, I think black women, sometimes our stories, you know, the way our stories are, our stories are entertainment for other people. And I would like to see us lean more into our joy, feel permission to turn away from trauma. I think what I would like to do, what I would like to do moving forward is to show what joy looks like, you know, even after all of that, despite all of that, maybe even because of all of that, you know, choosing joy is just that down.

That is what we should be doing. That is where we should be focusing. That is where we should be leaning into because I feel, again, with women, with black women, I feel like so much struggle is normalized. It's really important to me, I think, especially for women and girls. And I think also I live this way because I want my daughters to see my example. I want my daughters to pay attention to what it looks like when you look after yourself, that you're capable of doing that.

And also choosing people and environments that are that align with that, with your well-being, with your well-being at its highest height. is everyone supporting you looking after yourself. And also for men as well, like, does your partner contribute to you looking after yourself? You know, I feel like so many of us are afraid to look after ourselves because we're scared. We're scared of being selfish. We're scared of, you know, dropping the ball or not being productive. But like, I just speak as someone on the other side.

of it. I know what it's like to struggle. I know what it's like to experience trauma. But there is another way. There is another way to live your life. And I do believe, you know, not regurgitating the story and not feeling that in your body, in your soul, not like, you know, in the context of this conversation, it's been beautiful because I know that someone's going to watch this, feel what I feel, know what I know. And maybe also see where they can go with it, what they can do. As I said, you know, they may be broken now,

but I hope they know that there's still so much you can do with the pieces. That's a really important thing that I'd like to, you know, I'd like people to know. Like, don't think just because something's broken that me is that it's finished. Like, it's just not, it's just, the amount of times I've been broken. It's, you know, people always say to me that I should write a book. I'm just like that. You know, I had no idea.

The one through line that I think of, so I'll even, I'll tell you my, my Jamilia, like, behind the scene story. Yeah. Is that when, whenever we have a cast come to celebs go dating. Yeah. I have no idea who everyone is. Yeah.

I'm no clear. Like, even though I've been now, you can't for six years, I still have no idea. So they'll say, okay, this person's coming, this person is coming this person. When you were on the guests line up, I promise you, and I know I will get in trouble for saying this,

but I'm in a zone in my life where I'm just speaking truth, you know, truths or power, is I have never seen the production crew more excited to see, to welcome a celebrity than you.

But it gets deeper. because then as you're popping into set, everyone was like, I love it. Like, she had small lights up the roof. Everyone's talking about how much they love you. And what I realize is that you were at that time still going through struggles. Yeah.

Still going through up, still going through downs. Yeah. But you always came and you gave the best of you to everyone. Yeah. And everyone loved that. And I see that throughout your entire career. Yeah. You've given the best of you.

through your songs, through your performances. You have been the anthem. You have been the North Star for so many people. But we're out of place now. And this is what I want for you more than anything. And I see it and I love it, is that you are now showing up for you. Yeah. Yeah.

You're showing up for you. And that's just going to help to brighten you. You know, that's going to help help help to change. the trajectory of your daughters, right, of your life, clearly. But I love this for you. I love that you're in the zone. I think that you are such an important voice. I believe that you are such an important, such an influential figure in all communities.

But let's spend a second because this is rare, I think, in the UK, on a big platform, for two black people to be talking. We didn't even get into any of that. But the fact that so many, I know, I specifically know of people who believe that your presence save them and inspired them. And that's something that is incredibly special.

You know, incredibly special. And you did that. And the fact that, you did that through your pain. You know, it's just something that, so it's like, we have to give you your flowers. Oh, bless you. You know, we do. We do.

And I cannot wait to see, I cannot wait to see what the next chapter looks like, because the next chapter would be, you know, even more special. But let me ask you, there's a question that everybody gets you. You already know the question. You've had so many incredible. conversations I know in your life. When you think back to the most memorable conversation, who was it with?

What was said and what was it the lesson? I think honestly, it was a conversation that I had with my two eldest daughters and they were just basically asking me like a series of questions of like, you know, who do you want to be? who do you who you want to be and for me at the time I was 43 years old so it was like you know within the last few months that we had this conversation and I think what

what struck me about that particular conversation was that my young daughters still saw so much for me because I think a lot of us can feel like you know you get to a certain age and it's like okay I should maybe start winding down now. and for my daughters who still have, you know, extreme youth on their side, for them to see something bright in my future was just so beautiful. Because I guess it means that they see a light and they see potential. And I definitely think that I've been definitely in the past few years,

being a victim of like, oh, well, that's it. You know, that's, that's my life over, you know, on this age. And, you know, but for my children to, yeah, for my children to ask me those questions and to, and it was, it wasn't just who do you want to be. It was like a real sit down conversation of like, you know, let's make a plan. What are you going to do next? Why aren't, why aren't you singing? That was one of the questions.

And, you know, I think you mentioned earlier that, you know, our children are angels. And I really believe that like all of my children have been sent to to save me, to motivate me, to push me, to inspire me. And I am so, so unbelievably blessed to have angels in my home. So, yeah, I think that conversation in particular was, yeah, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was a bit shocking, but it also inspired me to make some huge decisions. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you.

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you so much for having me. Thank you. This has been a blessing. It truly has. It has been a blessing. I feel like that too.

Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. When I think about Jamilia, I think of a mosaic. The glass has been shattered. But what she's done is she's picked up the pieces and glued them all together and created something even more beautiful. And the best part of it is she sees that herself. She got the contract at 15, immediately started making money, and then became the income provider for her household.

And the joy just wasn't there. She would easily have gone back and said, I don't want the contract. at 50. Not only was she being groomed, but she rightfully said her brothers. And I love how she was able to juxtapose the male female to show that we're actually not giving enough attention to young men being groomed from violent purposes. It seemed like she wasn't able to cope until the biggest blessing of her life came. That's her children. Motherhood was her healthy coping mechanism, her children saved her time and time again. One of the biggest things she's done is moved. You can see how the environment wasn't the most conducive for her. She needed to remove herself

from the environment in order to gain a higher well-being. And I think the lesson for all of us is that sometimes our immediate environment may not be the best for us. That could be where we're working. That could be the village that we live in. It could be the country that we live in is that we need to understand that our environment directly speaks to our well-being. Everyone watching will appreciate the pain and the journey through the pain to where she is now, which is, you know, this beautiful mosaic. USAA knows dynamic duos can save the day, like superheroes and sidekicks or auto and home insurance. With USAA, you can bundle your auto and home and save up to 10%. Tap the banner to learn more and get a quote at USAA.com slash bundle. Restrictions apply.