We Need To Talk with Paul C. Brunson - Jordan Stephens EXCLUSIVE: I Want To Tell JADE I Love Her ALL THE TIME! I Was Shamed For Going Down On Girls!

Episode Date: March 18, 2025

In this episode of We Need To Talk, Jordan Stephens opens up like never before. The musician, writer, and actor shares the untold story behind his rise to fame with Rizzle Kicks, the struggles that nearly broke him, and the pivotal moments that shaped his life. Jordan reflects on his battles with addiction, the weight of fame, and the personal challenges he’s faced behind closed doors. For the first time, Jordan reflects on a period where he felt his lowest and how a phone call with his mum brought him back from the edge.  Now, in a high-profile relationship with Jade Thirlwall, Jordan opens up about how they navigate their relationship in the spotlight, and whether marriage and fatherhood are on the cards. Paul and Jordan have a powerful conversation around masculinity, exploring the struggles men face with emotions, intimacy, and societal pressures. This is Jordan Stephens as you’ve never seen him before. Support charities: MIND - https://g2ul0.app.link/w5vNMYwowQb Samaritans - https://g2ul0.app.link/zsXiEH8BORb Follow me here: https://www.instagram.com/needtotalk  https://www.tiktok.com/@weneedtotalkpod  Support Jordan here: Instagram - https://g2ul0.app.link/eQmG1muoJRb TikTok - https://g2ul0.app.link/n3LMyDBoJRb Book: Avoidance, Drugs, Heartbreak and Dogs -  https://g2ul0.app.link/iC6Y7KJjNRb  Audio Active - https://g2ul0.app.link/h2gPqvCjNRb  (00:00) Intro (01:36) Influence of Jordan’s Mum and Dad on His Upbringing (02:53) When Did Jordan Realise His Parents Were Anti-Establishment? (04:24) Jordan’s Experiences on His Childhood Estate (06:05) Jordan’s Parents’ Situation When He Was a Child (07:28) Jordan Moving to Brighton at 10 (08:25) What Did Jordan Think of His Parents Growing Up? (10:38) Jordan’s Complicated Relationship With Class (13:37) Jordan’s Experience as a Young Mixed-Race Man in Brighton (17:25) How Does Jordan Categorise Himself? (22:01) Jordan’s Early Experiences With Drugs (26:33) Changing Attitudes Towards Sex (27:38) The ‘Bizarre’ Story of Jordan Losing His Virginity (32:48) When Did Jordan Fall in Love With Hip-Hop? (35:17) The Origins of Rizzle Kicks (39:08) How Jordan Made ‘Down With the Trumpets’ (43:13) Does Jordan Have Any Regrets About His Music Career? (48:19) Paul Loves Jordan’s Book ADHD (49:29) Paul and Jordan’s Thoughts on the State of Masculinity (54:37) Internalised Homophobia (58:53) The Kinsey Scale: Understanding Sexuality (1:00:28) Jordan’s Experience at ‘The Bridge’ (1:05:24) Adobe Express Ad (1:06:24) Tinder Ad (1:07:34) Jordan’s Experience With Suicide and Suicidal Ideation (1:16:13) Jordan’s ‘Break-Up’ With His Mother (1:22:05) Jordan’s ‘Type’ (1:23:33) How Jordan Met JADE (1:30:26) Jordan’s Thoughts on Polyamory (1:32:20) Jordan’s Thoughts on the ‘L Word’ (1:34:52) Jordan and JADE's First Date (1:38:56) Will Jordan and JADE Get Married? (1:42:06) Jordan’s Thoughts on Fatherhood (1:47:44) How Jordan Navigates Being in a High-Profile Relationship (1:54:10) Jordan Praises Paul and WNTT (1:56:27) Most Memorable Conversation (2:00:04) Paul’s Takeaways Sponsored by: Adobe: https://www.adobe.com/uk/express/  Tinder: https://tinder.com/en-GB Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Absolutely adore foreplay. I think it's fucking brilliant. I feel sad of people who don't. But then that became a thing, you know, that like I was somebody who went down on girls. So you became almost shamed for going down. Yeah. 17.

You do Coke for the first time. Yes. You are removing pain you didn't realize you had. And my last memory was, I was trying to escape something. What were you trying to escape? My therapist would be buzzing that you're asking me these questions.

If there's any question that feels off, you just say, Paul, let's not go there. I'd be impressed if you feel. somewhere. Wow. Okay. There was also a point where I was very close to a suicide. A mom run me and I was like sometimes I feel like I just don't want to be here. Knowing that like I put my mom in a position where she could think about losing her son while she was alive. My dream throughout my whole life was for my mom to be happy. Let's get to then Jade. Jade tells me she loves me all the time and I fucking love it.

I never knew I could feel like this. She's my superstar and I'm my superstar. Do you believe that you will marry Jade? We need to talk. Yeah, yeah, we do. Before we get started, I want to personally invite you to subscribe if you haven't already. Joining our community means you'll be the first to know when new conversations drop. And trust me, we've got some incredible ones coming your way. Plus, your comments shape the show.

So let us know who you want to see on the show next. I'm telling you, I have, think I've watched every Rizzle Kicks video. Did your father play sometimes with you? Yeah. He plays in a life battle where he's all kicks. So talk to me. What was it like growing up and what influence did your father and mother have in shaping who you were as a little boy? I was mostly raised in a place called Nisden, which is Northwest London, on a council estate, which I don't think is there anymore, which is a shame.

My mom and dad, I don't have any really solid memories of them being about them actually. dating like being in a relationship but um my dad was in my life was always been part of my life but it was predominantly me and my mum and i think their most defining features of both of them is that they're very creative they're both lyricists my dad is a very accomplished musician um and my mom has you know yeah yeah she obsessed with words i mean both of them are quite anti-authority so a lot of like fighting spiritually and politically

in my childhood so you get it honest because I see this is how you show up in the world yeah right but when did you begin to recognize that that your parents weren't together

not that they were not together but that they were not aligned with politically what was happening my mom just took me to protest when I was kid so so I even though I couldn't I didn't necessarily know why I was in places I was aware that it was a fight against something you know so I had these early memories and my mum used to take me to music

festivals as well when I was really little like we're talking like five or six seven my mom reminds me sometimes that I like stopped her from seeing I mean not in the mean way but she reminds me that I think she was trying to watch Jeff Buckley or someone at Cypress Hill one of these incredible groups or artists but I wanted to be on the play bus you know I was that age I had no concept of who I was watching, but my mom was taking me to some crazy festivals. And then with my dad, my dad actually, I guess, I could, I was aware, you know, because he's just, he is like that he's, he's a piss taker, he's joking, he's charming. But I didn't really know how much of an anti-authority person he was until I was a little

bit older. He was in a rock band, but he used to be in a punk group when he was younger. My mom had a t-shirt that said, look, shit on it. Wow. when I was against. Wow. Wow. This is interesting because, so that was, what year was at roughly? So I was born in 92.

Yeah. Yeah, I guess I would have been taken on some kind of martial protest in the mid-90s. And then I guess when I was older, my most memorable one was against the Iraq war. It's interesting. So you're growing up in that. Yeah, I didn't feel like I was in the middle of, at least I wasn't aware of there being much happening literally where I lived. To me, anyway, it was this. fairy tale, which in terms of there were so many characters I was obsessed with the names and

stories and worlds of people that I'd meet. One of the beautiful things about living in London, especially living in, you know, working class London and an estate is it's a quadrant of culture and identity and stories, you know, so, which can be fun and enjoyable, but also kind of scary and traumatic sometimes. But I have vivid memories, you know, I remember on the bottom floor of our estate was a woman called Linda and she had I think like 12 bouquets of flowers just outside her house that she just let die from a person a man I'm guessing she'd kicked out and refused to take back you know there was a guy who called hop along genuinely and because he had a leg brace and the route the story was that he was pushed out of the top floor of the estate

and landed on his leg you know but it's like because I'm a kid I didn't have a concept of of the severity or like what that meant. In fact, there was, I've just had a memory then that of my mom or my mom and dad shouting at me because I had like a water pistol that I tried to shoot at like a police car ones or police van and they obviously freaked out. Yeah, yeah.

I didn't have, I don't know, we did our social media back then, so. True. That was just my entire world. This is true. But I understand you did not grow, they did not live in the same household. No, so with my, no, it was just me and my mom predominantly.

we lived in this, getting a council flat, top floor of this estate. And my dad I saw, now and again, I wasn't allowed to see my dad for maybe a year or so, just because my mum felt that

it was probably better for me. My mom's main concern, I think, when I was young was to make sure that my perception of my dad wasn't tainted, and he was going through struggles of his own, so she was protecting me from that for a little bit. And I think actually it's good to contextualize

that he, had a particular struggle with an addiction to opiates. And that was a really bad point. But he did go into recovery and sorted himself out. And he has done two or three times. Fair enough. How old were you at that time? I think it was about five.

Okay. So you remember not being able to see your dad, but not understanding why? I have one memory of my dad being at the flat in the morning, only because I remember being excited and jumping on him, but I landed on his, I like need him in the bits. And he, and he, uh, he was like, rah. And I was like, oh, shit. You know, I have a memory of that, but it was only really when I spoke to them more recently,

where I started to piece together what was even happening. But yeah, never, never living in the same house. Okay. Okay. Ever. Fair enough. So your mother, from what I understand is she was an artist. Yeah.

But, and then she transitioned to therapist. Yeah. I know. Tell me about that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So when I was in my teens, she just went to uni, started studying psychotherapy. Oh, so she did that in your teens? Yeah. So in your teens, you had already moved from London, though?

Yeah, I moved from London to Brighton when I was 10. Okay, you were 10. Yeah. So now, why did you move to Brighton? Well, I think it was a mixture of things. Brent was super rough. When we were there, like the crime was pretty high, I guess, in comparison to other boroughs in the And then also my grandma was there, my mum's mum, and my mum's sister were both from Brighton.

So there was a support network there? Yeah. Yeah. But now moving to Brighton, your father remained in London. Yeah. Okay. So at that point, was there any thought of, hey, I'd rather stay with dad or no, it was just no question, go with mom? Yeah, I've never.

That's interesting. It's an interesting question. My therapist would be buzzing that you're asking me these questions, actually. The dad stuff has been hard because I definitely do put up quite a guard with my dad for some reason. No, I don't ever remember wanting to live with my dad. I definitely saw him enough

to feel like I had a relationship with him. And I guess when I'm younger, I naturally idealise both of them. You know, both superheroes to me, my mum and dad and I literally didn't know any different. I don't even really remember being jealous, necessarily of my mates who had a mum and dad in the house.

I guess his thing was quite, dare I say, typical fatherly thing where he would try and spoil me when I saw him and he had various girlfriends. And that's why I ask because, you know, I think that what ends up happening with a lot of children where you're not living with both parents

is that you have the parent who's not with you full time becomes the spoiler. Yeah. You know, so whatever you need, toys, candy, whatever it is, you go to them. So they become the fun parents. Literally. Yeah.

Yeah, I say that in the, I say that there's a line in the book where I remember that. It's one of my most vivid memories is that my mom didn't let me drink where I'd be in her. See? And my dad gave me so much that I threw up, you know. So what I'm curious about is, why would you not want to stay with the fun parent? Yeah, I know. That's a good point. I don't know.

I guess because I didn't like throwing up. You know, like I think a part of me understood that they were friends the entire time other than that break, which I guess was actually still quite a friendly loving boundary. And I think that has bled into having quite a latent understanding of partnership and that family unit. I've always been very open-minded. Another thing is that it was never just me and my mum. She would have, I have godparents and I would constantly meet adults that,

of different walks of life. Having an insight into openness around sexuality and race and gender and class. Yes. Class was a massive one because hilariously, from my mum's side, my mum was actually born into money. Her father is a man called John Bolting, who is one of these identical twins

called the Bolting Brothers, who actually made the most famous for making a film called Brighton Rock in the mid-50s, which is a kind of staple British film. It was Richard Attenborough's first, lead role. And so like the Attenboroughs were friends with a part of my family. But the funny thing is, these identical twins married five times each.

I never met my grandfather, by the way. So they have this huge kind of shrapnel, you know, family vibe. Yes. Where everyone kind of looks like each other, but they're not that close to each other. And a lot of people have lost the money. So, you know, my mom literally signed on. We were on the door. We were on benefits when I was a kid because she hadn't.

In fact, I was homeless before Neesden, I was homeless for two years. I would just stay at my mom's friend, Tina's house. You know what's so incredible to me about that is that, so when I got to the UK six years ago, what was most blatant to me was how rigid the class structure still is. Yeah. Still is. Because in the U.S., we do have class, but it's not as rigid as it is in the U.K. In the U.S., it's predominantly, predominantly about money.

Yeah, right? So if you were uberly wealthy, you are typically considered to be whatever high class is. Regardless of race, ethnicity, sexuality. It's definitely not the same in the UK. But that's why this is so interesting to me. So at what point do you become aware of your class? It's just funny that you reflect that

as an American coming over it, Because yeah, my mom's values, I think a lot of people would agree were middle class. But in actuality of our money and our financial status, she was most certainly working class, like sometimes even below working class because we couldn't afford to live without support, you know? Because her father died and the money is, you know,

with multiple marriages like that and stuff, money just goes, it's gone. But what was so funny was still at a wedding or at whatever, I'm suddenly in a room with people who are not only middle class but sometimes upper class. And what was more fascinating was I would then go back to my estate and I'd know that I've just had an experience that like 80% of the estate would never have. We never have, yeah.

And then I remembered that as a brown boy that gave me this extra step. Like there was a privilege in that because I never from that point onwards felt threatened in rooms or people who look like that because I'd seen it as a kid, you know. Even though I wasn't allowed to see some family members because I was black, which is a whole other mixed race complex thing. No, but we have to talk about that. Yeah. Okay. We need to talk.

Yeah, yeah, we do. Yeah. Because, so your mother is white. Yeah, mom's white, yeah. Okay. So your father's black. Yeah. So by the time you're in Brighton, you're 10.

So what is your impression of who you are when it comes to race? No. Then. Oh. Yeah. So, yeah, the maddest thing about Brighton was that there's not that many black people. When I was there, there wasn't that many black brown, I think. I think we called it BAME then.

Oh, yeah. I remember it. It was six years ago it was Bain. Oh, really? Yeah. Yeah. Because I got here, I was like, BAME? Are you serious?

I know. Are you serious? I know. Yeah. I know. It's kind of nuts. But. all I remember was assimilation.

That's what I remember so vividly. I am, I've learned of myself, I'm naturally a sponge anyway. I do, if I spend enough time with a person or a vibe, some part of me, admittedly does blend or I want to, I want to merge. You don't mean. Okay.

Again, even being mixed race as an idea or as a feeling is bizarre because you don't look like either pair and you're caught between two cultures. The whole thing is a true. anyway. I remember very much being the London boy in Brighton. And then after about two years, I just assimilated with a couple of the subcultures there. So I remember like I dyed my hair red when I was about 11 and then became like a grunge kid

and I wanted to be a skater, you know, and I had like a couple of grunge mates. You're like, even if I wore a football top, they'd be like, nah. You know? Like it's too chavvy. I think it's El Townie or whatever it was. now in hindsight I feel I was trying to minimize the qualities of mine that would be associated of blackness in order to fit into social groups in Brighton which you've said I could talk to you for for a week about right yeah on this particular topic yeah in the United States yeah there was a very famous court case called Plessy versus Ferguson have you heard about this

so Plessy versus Ferguson essentially stated what constituted a black person. This is the one drop day? Exactly. Which stated that if there was one drop in essence, that was one eighth of your heritage could be tracked back to someone black, regardless of how you presented, regardless of the color of your skin, regardless of your hair, regardless you were black. So in the United States, growing up, I grew up in the 80s and the 90s, we didn't necessarily categorize as mixed race, black, white, white, it was. It was a It was you're black or you're not, right? And for the most part, if you had that one, you're black.

So for me, you, if you're Jordan, you're growing up in New York with me, you're black, right? Now, when I got here, I remember talking to someone on a show and I said, so are you, and I said, are you, are you, it was a dating show. And I said, who you're interested in dating? And he said, you know, well, I'm mixed race, so I want someone. I said, you know, I said, you're not mixed race. You're black. Wow. He said, no, no, no, no, I'm mixed race.

I said, no, my brother, you are black. You know what I mean? I hear it. My African friends would say the same. Yeah, I was like, you are black. And then he said, no, he pushed back again. And I said, mind blow. Yeah.

And I realized that I'm in a different place. I need to sit back and listen. So I'm still trying to reconcile this in my mind. Yeah. So even now, what do you categorize yourself as? I would say I'm mixed race just because I do think that there's quite a unique experience that comes with that.

In the same way as there's a unique experience that comes with being dark skin black. But to answer a few of the things you said at the same time, I guess, the first immediate thought I have is that I can't be white. This is what I find so funny. I couldn't, and I would never be

because even if I am genetically half white, there's not even a discussion with whether I'm not. white. Definitely not white, which is funny because that like based on percentages, surely I could have a choice between the two, but no, that's not how it works. And there is a lineage of people whose features look like mine, whose hair textures like mine and whose skins like mine that are treated unfairly because of that.

It's not like there's any point where a mixed race person was like, oh, you know, which side do you want? It was never that. It's, you know, if anything, sometimes there are a reflection. being mixed race in itself was a reflection of something having gone wrong before. You know, either a white woman is a text with a black man or a black woman as a white man. Something's gone awry and this person not exists, you know. But I also understand why people challenge these ideas.

Yeah. I do. But ultimately it comes down to, I think, the culture you feel most aligned to. And I do push against monolithic ideas of what represents blackness, you know. I don't like falling into spaces where something is seen as unblack because historically it's not recognized as that. Because then you fall into tricky territory like rock music. People think rock music could be like white music.

That's a preposterous idea when you look at the history of rock music or guitar music. So it is tough. It gets into tricky territory. But all I know is I was in a space, I was in a city that was predominantly white. I would just straight up experience things that would make me feel othered. And I need to disclaimer this because this isn't like a poor me situation.

This is very matter of fact. I actually, I've rarely been that affected by interpersonal racism because a lot of it, I think, is grounded in ignorance and that person's own, just lack of experience with black people. I'm with you. So when I was a kid, you know,

I remember the first time I was told in a football match to go back to my own country, I actually didn't understand what they were. on. I wasn't upset. Do you know what I mean? I wasn't. I actually was, was, I remember going to one of the, you know, the manager being like, what do, what, what country is he talking about? What is he? What is my own country? Let me know, please. I would love to return to this country I own. That would be fucking great. I hear you. So, so, so, so, so those, but, but, but, you know, the feeling of otherness, that is something that I would have, that would have sat within me. And that would, and that will, that will have manifested itself in certain situations. And, and. And, and. And, I certainly have a complex about my position in black spaces sometimes, much like I do in white spaces. And that's, to me, what is, what feels so sad when I talk to many people who are mixed race

is this feeling of never feeling comfortable in white spaces, never feeling comfortable in black spaces. So it's like, how do you even navigate life? I think for me, like coming from Brighton, where I feel like I have tried to assimilate with a less black culture, then re-assimulating with the London culture that I was initially raised in,

that was then confusing. Yes. So when you think about Brighton in particular, that was really where you came of age. Yeah, I guess people would say that. Yeah, I was a teen. I had all my first experiences there pretty much with drugs and sex and... Yeah.

Police. Fug sex and crime. It all happened right there. This is Brighton every night. Pretty much. It actually was the drug capital of the UK when I was there. Oh yeah, I believe it. You know, Brighton is the only place where I've seen inflatable penises on every corner.

Also gay capital, yeah. I think there's a massive gay scene in Brighton. And again, I felt that that's probably one of the aspects of growing up in Brighton that I really loved. So you're growing up in a much more liberal space. Yeah, definitely. Right. So it's a blessing, it sounds like, to be in Brighton. Yeah, but in that sense.

In that sense. So you have all these firsts, right? So let's talk about, well, actually, let's talk about drug use. Yeah. Right. So in, I think it's, what is it, 17. Yes. You have, you do Coke for the first time.

How does, how do you get, because I've never done Coke? Oh, really? Yeah, that's a good thing. That's a good thing. But how does that, how does that happen? How do you know? Yeah, I mean, how do you get introduced to it? If you're not looking for it or are you looking for it?

No, it was a friend of mine who was looking for it. I was on holiday, actually. I did it in Barbados. The dealer was called Mr. Cool. I swear to God. And you know what was even more mad is? He cemented his name because he came to deliver us the stuff. And then we were in like a club bar.

kind of thing but it was like loud pumping music a lot of people and he walked in did the did the deal and then went to sleep on a sofa in this club so do you know how much sense of self-assurity you have to have so yeah mr cool I remember it vividly and yeah we did it I was instructed on how to take it we're in a toilet we did snort at two lines and then how did you feel because I was here it's that first bro it was the most it was the The most memorable part of it for me, and this is, which inevitably led to my immediate downfall. In that, the situation was that alcohol becomes like water.

There's no feeling of consequence. A lot of people in the UK, I would say most people in the UK, unfortunately, Paul, they will be doing Coke, you know, weddings, birthdays, because they've drunk too much. And it gives them a little wake up, sobers them up. And they carry on drinking is wild. I would not recommend. Um, but, uh, I remember being sat there speaking to this girl.

I was attending the chat up even when I was 17. I used the fake ID to get in, but she was like 19. And then I had these row, this row of drinks lined up in front of me. And there was literally six drinks, six mixes. And I was like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I'm talking to her. And I'm just thinking, oh my God, this is, I can knock these back. Yeah.

And then I said to her, I'm just going to the toilet. And my last memory was saying by to her and walking towards the bath. and then I come back round and I'm just like under a car in the car park. There was three women. I remember this. There was three women and I was like, am I dead? And then my friend parted them like the ending of some kind of war epic and lifting me up and it was like, Joe, and I'd been like sick on myself and then they basically got me

a red bull and made me drink the red bull and I, you know, cleaned off the sick and went back in and then you were back in some more. But so it allowed you to go through the alcohol with no consequence. Yeah, yeah. Or you felt like there was not. Initially, that was the most memorable hot of Coke, yeah. But what about the whole, I always hear everybody, not everybody, but I feel like maybe it's part of the narrative.

Yeah. Is that that first high, like you'll never be able to get that first high again? Or is that just all nonsense? I don't know about that with Coke. MDMA, maybe. MDMA, I can hear that and certainly heroin. I've not tried heroin, but that is the, I've heard

that that's the part that's most overwhelming is that being that it's a painkiller you know that you are removing pain you didn't realize you had so just being alive

feels painful and the only way to remedy that is to do more opiates that's why they're so dangerous got you got you coke man I don't fucking know I feel like you know

it gives you raise a sharp focus and you know like a sense of confidence for about 25 minutes until you've got to do another fucking line in London it's pointless anyway because it's at most about 25% pure even though people will tell you otherwise everyone will be like yeah mate i got it off the docks my cousin works on the docks i got it's not been stepped on it's like

yes it has bus it's cut with benadryl come on yeah but um but no i don't feel as that mdma yes the first high of mdma incredible and if it was regulated and i feel like there's actually a lot of medicinal and therapeutic benefits so mdma did you try that when you were in the teens yeah i think 16 when i did that you were 16 i think i did that first that actually before the Coke, yeah. It's before the Coke. Yeah. We were pre-rexed in Brighton. Okay. With drugs and sex, which I only realized a sex thing when I started speaking to people in London about their secondary school time. And I was like, oh, Rob, we were active. Yeah, yeah. I didn't realize that that was going on in Brighton. But you know, though, the amount of sex, though,

has dropped off. Oh, really? That's the thing. I think that's the part that people don't buy, but it's the fact. So if you look at the percentage of gen alpha, we're like up to your, what, mid-20s having sex, it's much lower than Gen Z. If you look at Gen Z compared to millennials, much lower. If you look at millennials compared to Gen X, my generation, much lower. So we were doing our thing much more. Serious. And then you keep going. So you go to baby boomers. Social media, man. So you know who was having the most sex? Our grandparents. Yeah, if they're living it up in the 60s, come on. Yeah.

60s and 70s. Yeah. Free love. It was a movement. It was a movement. But to your point, social media. Yeah. Makes it people think, act like.

He's ruined everything. In that respect, for sure. Yeah. Expectation. Absolutely. Absolutely. So the first time that you have sex is in Brighton. Yeah.

Okay. Yeah. Do you recall? Oh, yeah. You recall the moment. It's a bizarre story. I can't lie. Because it came as a result.

of me being off school for a couple of weeks because I was put on police suspension because I had allegedly assaulted a girl in my class which wasn't true I was found innocent which actually turned out that that girl's mum was charged with wasting police time but it was it was fucking surreal just in short what happened was I'd nudged my friend on the shoulder to say hi this was someone I knew and then at the end of the lesson The teacher said, oh, this person said that you hurt her. And oh my God, you know, I'm sorry. Apparently this sorry was considered legally an admission of guilt.

So the next day I went into school and I was put into isolation. I wasn't allowed to see any of my school classmates. I was made to sit in the back of the class. And I did, it was too scared to tell my mum that this had happened because I didn't know what the fuck was going on. And I was trying to speak to this girl and her friends. Her friends were kind of a little bit confused. I saw that tomorrow will be fine.

It'll be fine. Next day I'll go in, I'm taken to the deputy head. And that's when I now realize the severity of this memory is, I might have been pushing it down a little bit because he actually, he locked me in this room, the deputy head, and he basically just told me that I was, I'd been raised to beat women. I mean, but it was pretty, I was in tears.

I remember breaking and a bit shocked at myself. I didn't realize that I had done this. So he made me write a letter of apology to like this girl and her mom. And it fucked me up, bro. Like that was, shit was crazy. And that, when it got to that stage, it became a legal matter. And my mom was working as an appropriate adult at the custody center, weirdly at the time. Okay.

She was friends with some solicitors. And they offered to work for free. They said it's ridiculous. What's going on? And now I realized that there might listen. There might have been a racial element. I really hadn't considered that at the time with a teacher. It was a white teacher.

I was one of the only black kids in my school. I don't know. I definitely didn't think that at the time. I wasn't even aware of that. But it was fucking horrible. And now thinking that as an adult to do that to a kid and tell the kid with no evidence, by the way,

just this story. My friend and some of her friends, they gave statements and then I was found out and it said, you know? Yeah. But even with that, it's interesting. I can see how that waits. Yeah.

And you're revisiting it. And you think how incredible it was for your mother to be in your corner and for her to have those contacts. She had a few words with that teacher, yeah. And what would have happened if you didn't have that advocate? Dude. Exactly.

Like, that would have been, you know what I mean? I could have, I remember being in that room like rewiring my own memory of the event. Like, surely for somebody to be telling me this, I must be misremembering what I've done. Like in my head, I'd fucking grab someone and throwing them across, you know? Right.

But I know it feels like an odd space to tell this story, but those really were the grounds in which I was then, whilst this investigation was taking place, I wasn't allowed to go to school for two weeks. And so all I did was meet up with this girl. And then she ended up taking my vicinity and leveraged it to try and make a boy jealous. Oh, that's what it was. That's all you were.

Yeah. You lost your virginity to grow older than you. Yeah, but I mean, I couldn't have been consenting more. I was fucking buzzing, Paul. I could not have been consenting. Where's the consent for them? And I actually remember, I remember as well that I had like the early forms of video porn had started to come about. Okay.

Like people could get video on their phone. And I remember someone had showed me like a video of a blowjob. And I remember being like, what the, like. So I remember when I lost my virginity, I was almost more excited about the bunch of it. So I was like, this is an. same concept like that you could just pleasure someone with the mouth that's mad like it was a it was actually that was also definitely a two-way thing because I didn't see at that point also there was no conversation or whether I would do that and not a hundred percent I went down on her like that was just felt you know

and then that was again a thing that became a thing you know that like I was somebody who went down on from girls and I always have done always will do absolutely adore four play I think it's fucking brilliant and I feel sad people who don't oh so you say it became a thing so you became almost for going down. Sometimes, yeah, when I was, yeah, with boys, there's a whole term for it, Boat, you know, which actually stemmed from Jamaica. But like, it's some power thing,

I don't know, that's been, you know, repackaged and thrown into youth culture, but I didn't get it. And then also it helped me, because girls were like, well, that's great, you know. Right. Exactly, I get a bonus from this guy. But so, just to move us out of Brighton,

is you fall in love with music. Yeah. I would imagine. Yeah. But the question that I have is rap, hip hop in particular. At what point do you fall in love with hip hop? I mean, man, listen, I'm giving my age here, but there was once a time. There was once a time where UK hip-pop was predominantly a space

and was people would voice their struggle. Like the true legends of UK hip-hop would be that just, Chester P, Task Force, Foreign Beggers. Hip-hop was this form of like, you know, I'm on Ben, you know, I've got no money, I'm scrounging, I'm trying to do something with my life. You know, the currency and rap at that point was, how many words could you rhyme in a sentence? That was rap.

That was the rappers you'd hear and go, oh my God, like there's a rapper called Charlie Tuna from a group called Jurassic Five. That group inspired me in Harley to make Rizzle kicks, right? Charlie Tuna is known for multisyllabic rhyme schemes, cadence, delivery. That's what we were listening for. And Jurassic Five spoke often about, they were quite anti-capitalist.

They were talking about not wanting to be celebrities, not wanting to be stars. They spoke about community and the genres they liked and they just were fucking around, you know? That was the rap that inspired me at that point. So I'm like, fuck, I can get down with this. This is the kind of shit. My first rap's were about like,

like rumors in school. One of my first rapes was a diss on my school form tutor. Oh, where. Like there was, that was, that was, it was my, it was a channel for me to express my frustration with something in my life but I didn't feel like I couldn't use it because I was really talking about like quite minimal experiences you know like going to a house party or like playing spin the bottle I would literally rap about these things you know interesting

because that's what I that's I didn't feel like there was any barrier it was just how am I saying it what words are rhyming when I say it and then now I guess it's another conversation but now there was a massive shift around that time and now you have to really look for those artists hip hop and rap I think has got this this has been tied in quite heavily to consumerism and you might talk about having struggled but you're definitely ending it by telling people

how well you're doing now you know and like those rappers before that were talking about where they were at they're like you know they struggle to sell records so selling a dream is kind of more marketable it is it sure is Yeah. So at that point, though, I would imagine that you're not necessarily thinking, okay, this is a career, this is a profession. It was, this is a passion and I'm pursuing it. I made music because, well, firstly, I made it genuinely because I just wanted to express myself. I know it sounds mad, but it really was it. And I guess my mom, I'd grown up, you know, reading my mom's lyrics on the living room floor. And a lot of my mom's demos that she was making when I was six or seven, I remembered every word, every lyric, you know. So that.

idea of writing lyrics to express an experience or a self that wasn't out of the that wasn't an alien concept my dad was in a band called the self and i'd hear his music and you know he's had a song called conscience like you which was this like rock song and i'm like you know so i felt like that was already something that i could do to express myself where it might surprise you is i fundamentally didn't understand what i considered to be the time wasted were people just hanging out i It's sad in hindsight. At school, I didn't. If they went, oh, Jordan, we're going to go to the park.

For me, I didn't understand what, to do what? To just sit. Didn't understand. I'd rather, I'd literally rather watch a film. At least I had this insatiable desire to be moving forward. Okay. And so at the same time, you know, my mom, she's trying to make it as a psychotherapist. Money's tight.

She's doing mad hours trying to finish her. degree and I wasn't really helping, I wasn't very good at helping it out around the house. I now understand why with what I've learned about ADHD, but I really struggled. So I was like, all right, cool, I know what I'll do. I will make myself so good at creating websites, so good at making music that I will get us out of the situation. And I had that focus from 15 years old, like 100%. And actually, I got voted most likely to be famous in the school year book.

Firstly, I wasn't even there for the end of the year. I was somewhere else It's a whole other story But I knew that If I put enough time in My own time, I could get out So I made this music I had a paper round

I'd use the money from the paper round To pay for studio time I'd make these demos I'd then print these demos I'd print the CDs stickers I made press packs I put press packs through

All the record labels doors I emailed people Like constantly I had no shame No worry no embarrassment People were mocking me about it They were. Oh my God.

I got people, one guy made a banner on his MySpace that said, like, if you think, they used to call me Rizzle back then. If you think Rizzle's a dickhead text this number. Wow. And it was my number. So I would just get a random text saying dickhead for a day, which was just, but it didn't, it didn't, for whatever reason, I had this armor at that point. I was like, all right, cool.

I'll chat to you in a couple of years. And actually, that same person came to see me. Wow. Look at that story. So it's like, I just had this desire. I would discourage this in my child, personally, because I was trying to escape something. What were you trying to escape?

I was just trying to get my, I wanted me and my mom out of this hole, you know, as she was stressed. I wanted to give my mom money. My dream throughout my whole life was for my mom to be happy. My mom focused a lot of her intention on me being happy and gave a lot of herself to me being happy. But of course, as you'll know,

children, they pick up how long. the parents also treating themselves and it broke my heart like every day I could see that my mum wasn't treating herself with kindness. So I went okay well I'm going to go ahead and and sort this out for us which I shouldn't have really been thinking as a teenager

I should have felt more guarded I think by both my parents but it is what it is they're both doing their best so that's why I stuck to music because it felt like something I could 100% do I entered every single music competition possible. I literally would go UK music competition and I would just enter every single one about where it was applicable that I could enter it. Okay. And once one of these websites was called Go Busker, they went, congratulations, you've won our bursary.

I'd given one of these songs that I had made with my paperboy money. Okay. So we're going to give me 500 pound. And I was like, 500 fucking pound. Yeah. And they were like, all you have to do is show us. that what you're buying is musical. Can't I get the 500 quid and like buy a track suit,

which I almost did. So I remember I bought, I must, I might have bought an iPod maybe because obviously I was buzz really wanted to get an iPod. And then the other thing was, I bought these three beats off this guy called Dag Nabit. And one of them later became a song called Down with the Trumpets,

which is to this day the biggest Rizzle Kick song released that I made when I was 15. 15, 16 years old, you can tell by the chorus. But it's a banger. It's a banger, you know, and it was really made out of that kind of desire. Over a million sold, right? Single. Oh, yeah, single.

Oh, over a million. Over a million. All right, so it was that song that allowed you to get the deal? Actually, I think the moment where I was like, oh, something's going on here was when I, so I was doing all this stuff on my own, actually. The first time with the trumpet song, it was just me. were just rapping in and the whole thing and then i was at college and harley the other member of rizzle kicks he was studying theater at brit and so we'd get the train in i was there's only like

eight of us from brighton who were getting the train into east grade and every day and i heard this song by the streets um where there's a singer singing the end of mike skinner's lines uh the studio at the street yep yep and i went oh that's so cool a singer at the end of the rapper's lines so i said harley do you might come into the studio and singing the end of my life lions and it was like yeah yeah because I knew he could sing and then all we were there were like oh do you want to just to jump a verse on on this song and I put that song on my my space and then suddenly everyone around us was like oh this is cool and then that was the moment where I'm like I actually don't know firstly of any other duos at in that moment there was some historical duos like

sort of pepper or kid and play yes you know um nice and smooth you're in there's all types of you know double acts but um nice and sweet yeah But certainly in that space at that time, that seems like a unique thing. A singer and a rapper hadn't been done at that time. So I was like, let's do this. And from that point onwards, everything we kind of did seemed to go on a more attention.

And then you get the deal. My mate was having birthday drinks. If I hadn't have gone to my friend's house and met his cousin's boyfriend. He was a wedding photographer, showed me the video function on his camera. And I was like, God damn, that's amazing. the shadow depth of the field was like an insane concept and I was like want to shoot a music video

and he was like yeah right you know I wouldn't mind using the function monologue shot a music video 100,000 views what music video this is it so it's actually not online but there's an original version of down with the trumpets down with the trumpets okay in like in the new version you can see a video at the beginning yes of the old version yes old version got assigned is that the the tape going no no yeah yeah yeah okay yeah so so we We had already shot another video. And when we got signed, the label took it down. And me and Harley were like, what the fuck?

There's 100,000 views. You man, crazy? And they were like, shoot another video. We'll re-release it. And then it's on like 26 million views or something. Yeah, look at that. Yeah, but it was just us and this guy and Toby. And our videos cost barely anything.

And they all got millions of views. And we became a sensation momentarily. Yeah, look at that. You said momentarily. Relative to, you know, my life. Yeah. Yeah. So when you look back, I'm sure you're proud of that chapter of your life. Yes.

Are there any regrets? Yeah. I've got loads of regrets. Do you? Yeah, of course. Specifically. Do you – are you on the side of – well, if I asked you if you had regrets, would you say? Yeah. Well, you know what I think I do is I take that and I pull the lesson out?

Yeah. And then I say, you know what? I couldn't have received that lesson. Unless I had done the thing. and I mean are there moments that I wish I could get back I wish I can get them back but at the same time then I always counter it with with I wouldn't I learn that thing that then I think does that make it not a regret that for me that's that's what makes it not a regret really yeah but what I mean so

when you yeah I've got regrets specifically well I just I just think I'm career the music career what's what's your top regret I don't like I second album cover. And I had to, because we, we, Rizzle kicks, me and Hals, we released an album for the first time in 12 years or something, like literally last month. And we were doing signings, you know, we're, our approach to it nowadays is a lot more low key, you know, we're not trying to reach the heights of pop stardom that we kind of accidentally fell into all those years ago. But we were doing a signing and people would come with, you know, our first two albums on vinyl. And I remember looking at the

second album cover, being like, fuck, it hate. that shit. I hate it. And it was me. It was me. I was so high on drugs at the time. I was like, this is a good idea. And it just was not a good idea in any sense of it was so. And we had shot a whole other album cover with an incredible up-and-coming videography who ended up working with ASEAP Rocky. And, you know, I don't know, Paul, I don't know what the lesson is there. I don't know what I did take it. I don't know what the lesson is out there. Don't do drugs. Yeah, literally, literally. Don't do drugs. So, but but other than other than the album cover. Yeah. what is a top regret on just the music career?

I think if I was to be objective about music careers, like 18, 19, 20, being that famous, was now, I'm realizing completely like, what do I do with that? How do I do? I don't know who I am. I hadn't developed as a person, a human being. I'm being constantly criticized. Because we had ended up in the pop sphere,

There's a whole other level of snobbery attached to that pop star. People just assume, for example, a pop star is a moron's for a start. And also, the irony is, I was a moron at 20, 21. What do you expect from a 20, 21 year old boy? You know what I mean? So if I was given the option and choice, objectively, I'd be like, no, man, chill, do exactly what you want to do, make the music you want to do for as long as possible, and crescendo into your 30s.

That's one, those careers that I love seeing, are people who've been knocking away for eight years, nine years, and then boom. And then once they're there, they have that resilience. It's like, you know, it's like a butterfly coming out of its cocoon. Whereas for us, we knocked on the first door, Paul, and it opened them when, I were, boom, number one, we had like eight top 20s. I don't know what it was, but it was astronomical so fast.

To the point where people thought we were industry plants, they thought that some people didn't believe us because they didn't see our journey. Because our journey was playing to 35 people in a basement in Brighton to headlining the introducing stage at Reading within a year to like 15,000 people. It was really one month of our lives, July 2011, just shifted everything in our lives. You know it's so, so interesting about what you're saying

is that now I'm reflecting back on guests, especially artists like Jamelia, like Sherlewitt, and they were trying to escape something. I mean, it's hitting me for the first, Right now. They were trying to escape something. They got it young. And there were issues as a result of... Massively.

It's uncontrollable. Uncontrollable. And also, you know, we have a society maybe, or I don't know if that's an overused term, but we obviously celebrate, in my opinion, quite nothing material. We have this obsession with materialness. So I was told quite early on, don't complain about... They can't complain about fame, you know, because look what you get, you know, get free clothes, get taking places in cars, you know, I'm, I have an instant alleviation from the poverty

I was in before. I tried to pay off my love's debts, but at what, what's going on spiritually, right? That doesn't, or emotionally, you know, I've got stuff I've got to work through, you know, I have to mature, I haven't had a right of passage. I've not gone through that pain and I'm, and I'm stuck in the suspended state where I have a social currency and now I'm privy to rejection and comparison. My egos through the roof, you know, in my early 20s. Like, it's a lot.

In that fame, and I want to go to connect it to your book. Yeah. Okay. So I said this when you walked in, but I want to make sure that everyone hears me say this, is that I believe that your book is, so it's avoidance, drugs,

heartbreak, end on. Yeah, right? ADHD, right? I believe that this is one of the best books that I've read this entire year. Thank you, Paul. It's phenomenal.

That means a lot for me, honestly. It is phenomenal. I encourage everyone to read it. You know, just for those, just to give it context, my book is centered around me cheating on my ex-girlfriend, telling her that I cheated, her leaving me as a result, I feel rightly. and that pushing me or almost triggering me into a desire to rewire myself slightly,

go into a state of recovery. Do you feel like there is actually a kind of crisis in terms of men being able to be honest about how they're feeling about life and society in the West? Absolutely. I think all over the world. And then we have a challenge around identifying what the emotion is. Yeah. And what I notice, and I do this with a lot of the television shows, it's funny enough, I was filming, I guess I could say it, I was filming Married at First sight yesterday.

And there was a gentleman that I was working with. And I asked him, I said, so tell me what emotion do you have in this moment right now. as you sit with your wife, what emotion is it? He had no words. And he wasn't armed to be able to articulate the words. He doesn't know what an emotion is. So I said, if you cannot tell me what the emotion is, you can't tell me what the feeling is.

Therefore, you definitely can't tell me what your partner's emotion is. And you definitely can't tell me what your partner's feeling is. And if you can't tell me what your partners is, then you can't hold space for them. No. That means you can't connect with them.

It's like the most important thing. It is. And you said it. It is. It is. Like, do we start like a heartbreak high or, you know, just some space where we can just in, why at school is that not the utmost priority to be, I think it's one hour a week in the UK, PSC, personal social education, one hour a week.

Well, when I went, one thing that all children and young people, people need to understand is how they feel and how they engage with people interpersonally every day of their lives. Yes. And this would, and I bet you you feel the same. This will definitely get us both into trouble, but I'll say it. So it'll get me into trouble is trigonometry. Yeah. When I was in ice. You used that today, right? Yeah. I was going to say, I have not used trigonometry. Oh, what? Since I was, but yeah. Acute angles, though. Yeah, no, we, I have no idea. I don't even not Trinom, yeah. It's like it is, it is almost pointless.

Yeah. If not pointless. Yeah. Right. However, being able to identify your emotion and feeling is everything. Yeah. In life. Everything.

Everything in life. Like I'm saying, this is what spins me out. The basis of these huge political, social, economic shifts is a human being. Yes. Like a human that is feeling something. And that feeling is a part of their. a fucking decision. Yes.

Sometimes I look at the House of Commons. Yes. And they're talking about this massive change of policy. Well, someone's fucking asleep. I definitely want

them to be awake. Like when, do I mean? Like, how are we not like, like, if it's down to me, they'd be having, you know, therapy is a, is a no, that is, you're in therapy, 100%.

If you're making decisions about my whole country, yes. I want to know what you're eating, how many hours you're sleeping. Yes. And who you're talking to. Yes. Like, these lot are getting pissed

at the bar and passing out in the... Yes. So like we need to re-engage with that very fabric of our society of putting so much, like how much better would decisions be if we were emotionally regulated when we made them? That's all I'm asking. Yeah, yeah. And this is the reason why I think these conversations are so important.

Yeah. This is the reason why being considerate parenting is so important. This is the reason why, you know, normalizing these conversations with friends, especially among men. Definitely. You know, one thing that I notice is that, you know,

I think one of the most toxic places for men, other than the internet, is the barbershop. Brilliant. Uncle's telling old stories, I know. And you know, so, I mean. That's so funny. So clearly I don't have to go to a barbershop, right? But my boys do.

The one, yeah. And so it was, this is, this is, this blew me away. So for years, I would cut my boys' hair. Right. And part of it was I was cheap. Yeah, yeah, sure. And I was like, they're young. They don't care.

They're dad. Like, they don't care, right. Then I brought them to the shop. Yeah. And I was like, oh, no, no. I can't keep them in this. No way. Because they were bringing stuff back.

So I was like, I'm going to bring them home and I'm going to cut their. Then I thought, this is bad parenting because they're going to get exposed to it anyway. Yeah. So what's the best? What's best is, okay, I need to be there. so that we can have conversations around this. And you can go and chat to the other guys around it. Oh my God, but what is said is just, and this is not every,

every barbershop. In London. But this is in London. We're in barbershops in South London. South, London, you're in South. And once again, I'm not throwing all of our, all of these barbershops under the bus. But what I am saying though is that I think that. You're going to get dragged for this.

Yeah, yeah, I'm definitely going to get it for this. But what we do need is we need to have conversations around these topics that we're talking about in the shops. One of my biggest frustrations with, obviously I'm being, I'm generalizing here, but with the male community is this internalized homophobia, definitely rooted in misogyny where anything outside of this heteronormative framework. Anything is just, it's gay, it's, you know, there's all these kind of phrases that are thrown around like, why, why feed out or no homo, pause, like all of these phrases are, and I said gay as an insult when I was a kid, which is, again, hilarious because I was so, I was so not homophobic. It was just, I was just trying to fit in, you know. I think everyone did my, in my generation as a slur, you know, and culturally it was way more acceptable to be like that about it. But it doesn't make any sense to me. I honestly, honestly, I cannot get my head around the concept of homophobia. So I just ask myself questions, what can lead to that? And I think there's a lot of issues in society that are rooted in this immediate limitation on boys' sense of intimacy, you know?

Like, there's so much in the world that seems to be, as a result, of boys and men who, if not gaining that intimacy from a woman, there's no chance. that that's happening from their male friends because there's this fear. And I remember seeing these pictures online, like there were these photoshoes that used to happen in like the late 1800s or something, I don't know.

And there were men who were best friends and you can look at the positions that they did. They sat each other's knee, head on the shoulders. Yes. They were very tactile. And then there was an introduction of heterosexuality and homosexuality as a means of understanding this human psyche.

So you're saying that, in essence, society has shamed us into performing this script this is why I sent to so much of my work I'm doing now around trying to push back against this self-hate that I think

festered within men because of course you have to understand the beauty of another man or the attractiveness of another man in order to have an understanding of your own beauty and attractiveness and there's, you know? You know what's interesting is I'm with you entirely. Yeah.

And for me, and I'll never, so I grew up in the States playing American football, right? And there were many things that we did in the locker room that I would think, you know, it's interesting. We as a team, as players, we would never do in public. Right. Right. You'd smack somebody on the butt, like as they're going out. But you would never do that outside of the context of football. And I think that I grew up being shamed in terms of,

to this script that you're talking about. And I will never forget the moment that I decided to break out of it is I was visiting Turkey. I was in me, I don't know, maybe my 20s, late 20s. I'm visiting Turkey and one of my good friends were on the Bosphorus, we're walking,

and he tucks his arm in. He, we locked arms, yeah, yeah, we locked arms and we're walking arm and on. And as soon as he does that, I pulled my arm back. I was like, what are you doing? What are you doing? He said, what are you talking about? We're walking.

We're walking. He said, this is within our culture. This is what we do. And I realized at that moment that I was falling victim to this societal script. And I locked my arm in arm and we walked. And I thought, I need to figure out, I need to do my own. Have you done or looked at it?

looked at the Kinsey research at all. No, what's that? Okay. So this is interesting because when you said this, I thought, I was like, my man, he's talking about research here, right? Because there is, so one of the most, I think, famous studies around sexuality is done by Kinsey in the 1940s, I think. Wow.

And you know what his findings are? Wow. That the majority of people are bisexual. Really? That's his findings to the tune of 80-some-odd percent. Listen. And now, there's lots of pushback, especially recently, exactly, bias in the survey, the data. You looked at who they're speaking to, et cetera.

So, yeah, we have to take that into consideration. But in essence, what he's saying is that if you have someone who is interested in same-sex purely here, someone who's interested in, you know, heterosexual relationships here. What Kenzie is saying is that the majority of us, 80% are somewhere in that spectrum. And what's interesting is that you are, without even having read his research, going back to the 1940s,

you are saying from your observations, you're in agreement. Fluidity as a concept, you know, waves. This is something what I had to learn in myself about emotion that a lot of the bigger emotions that I had struggled with and now less so were because they are not fixed. It's not a fixed principle. You know, grief isn't a fixed idea.

It's something that will, like the shore, you know, in and out, obviously I don't need to tell you this. Yes. But these are facts. Yeah, so it's just odd to me that something as free, as sexuality has to then be forced into this space. And I think what it results in is a lot of people who are, angry as a result of having to suppress the side of them or they, yeah, or they are

ostracized for being brave enough to be like, yeah, that's cool. Yeah, absolutely. All right. So then from there, this is the perfect segue to religion. Tell us what the bridge is. A bridge? So, yeah, just to contextualize, I had written, during this heartbreak, I wrote an article for The Guardian about my perception of masculinity at that time.

I was heartbroken, I was left by my ex in the middle of the Me Too movement, which was quite a wild time to have been a cheat. It was like obviously that we're looking at the extreme cases, but there was a much, as you know, there was a much more watered down social discussion going on generally around behavioural patterns. Yes.

So it was seriously like, whoa, what the fuck. Anyway, I was invited me to this retreat called The Bridge. The retreat is a six-day transformation course dealing with grief. It's essentially group therapy. You deal with these issues as a community as a group. And I had instantly had an imposter syndrome. You know, I went in there and I'd hear these stories.

And some of these stories, like, you know, like some of the things people had seen or gone through, I said to get, I think I should be here, you know. I'm going for like a breakup and my grand died. Like, it's not that deep. And you're like, nah, that's not how this works. That's, there's no comparison in grief. It doesn't work like that. It's relative. And yeah, you build up over six days to write these two letters.

And those letters are then read out. And the facilitator with their decades of training will sit in front of you and then challenge some of what you said, in order to summon these buried truths and realities. And if it works, you have a trauma response, which I did twice. And many people did. and you feel literally a stone lighter and the lust for life kind of returns,

which is just insane. Yeah, yeah, it's beautiful. Yeah, it's beautiful. So then lessons pop two lessons from the bridge. For me personally, there were two things that stuck in my mind. I don't know if they're the best lessons, but there were things that stuck in my mind. One was the relationship between feeling and movement.

You know, a lot of the work on summoning feeling was shaking, yoga, Pilates, these things that perhaps, again, because in the maybe in the pop lexicon or like in the spaces we share, these concepts can be tainted. You know, it's like yoga, seen it.

Oh, Lulu, lemon, yummy, mummy. You know, like, or shaking. Are you shaking? Like, you know, you're shaking? All animals who experience anxiety ever. Yes. They're going instantly. And yet we don't.

So just those principles, first lesson. Second lesson, which is fucking hard for me, because I'm a people pleaser. Uh-oh. I'm working on being less of a people-pleaser. Caretaking was banned in the bridge, which is oddly

therapeutic work for me specifically. Maybe not other people, but there was a handful of caretakers at the bridge. And just to give your audience an understanding of what I mean by caretaking is when people are processing these quite profound, emotional experiences, you know, they had to experience it on their own. Which is hard.

So you could be a bit more. be with someone, you wake up that morning, you have breakfast, you're chatting, you're chilling, you're joking, you do an exercise, you got to write down, you know, what is your first memory of, da-da-da-da, this person breaks, and you have to leave them alone. Number one rule, do not touch them, do not ask them if they're okay, you let them have their moment.

Crazy. Because I'm there, I'm personally like, let me make you feel better. Right. And why is that so important? Because it makes it about you. Not consciously. Not like, hey, look at me, I'm a nice person. It's just a, I don't like that.

I don't like that that's happening. I know I can make it better. And what is better in that context. We're so used to better being not crying. Yes. Or not processing because it's not happy. It's not bright. But actually that could be the best moment that person's going to have that week

because the other side of that is freedom, release, joy. You know? Yes. Yes. This is why I always talk about how it's so important. Like we're all, We're all either in the fire, you know, heading towards fire, etc. But you have to allow someone to go through it.

Yeah. And that sounds like precisely what's happening. Yeah. And obviously there are, you know, I wouldn't take it as extremely as to be like if my girlfriend now was feeling sad. I wouldn't just leave her to. There's a different context for that, you know what I mean? For like there is a space where you can hold someone. I mean, especially if men, my God, please don't take this as a,

That's the lead of being like, they're processing. I'm not going to... I'm not going to talk. No, it's not that. It's very specifically in the therapeutic context. Here's something I've learned from all my years talking to people about making changes in their lives. We all have moments where we get stuck in the thinking phase, planning, dreaming, waiting for the perfect moment. Our sponsor, Adobe Express, gets this completely.

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Download Tinder today. Just a quick one before we get into this next section. We touch on some sensitive topics including suicide. If this is a tough subject for you, please watch with care. We've also added links to support charities in the episode description. At this point, though, you are famous. Yeah. You are popular.

Yeah. Right. You have your in and out of relationships at this point. Yeah. You know, a romantic relationships. Yeah, yeah. All sorts of chaos. Right.

You are abusing drugs. Yeah. About your life. Where did you feel alone? I mean, yeah, there was one point where it's difficult. You might have actually, you might actually found the point where I, what a boundary. I think because it involves someone else. But there was a, there was also.

a point where I was very close to a suicide as well and the suicide implicated people around me just because of the support network that this person had had. I'm trying to find polite ways of discussing it and I was literally on tour when that happened and I kind of came off tour to deal with the repercussions of it and that I was that everything in and around that led to not only me having to engage with like the least mature and most confused parts of me, but also this suddenly this desperation for me to have someone,

you know, like by that point I was probably making the most money in my family and was siphoning that out. But I don't think I was quite, I definitely wasn't emotionally unstable enough to be like the anchor of my immediate family and yet I found myself in a space where I was trying to be.

That felt that felt really alone. Interesting because I wished more than anything in that moment that I had someone above me like to just scoop me up and take me to a place that they have and that they own and that

and protect me from kind of my own idiocy and also help me understand what happened and what decisions I should make. Fair enough, fair enough. Stop me where you want me to. But the topic of suicide is one that's come up in several of the conversations we've had. And we need to talk.

And an area that I think has been very helpful for the audience has been when that ideation happens, there's thoughts arise of taking your life, how do you move to a space where you don't? Right? How do you stop? How do you prevent yourself? How did you? How did I?

Yeah. I definitely said that in that moment, the last thing I could ever imagine was myself. That was also an added pressure, you know, at that moment of learning this as a reason, because it was in proximity to that having happened, actually, to a full extent, having lost someone to suicide.

Oh, that wasn't it, I couldn't even dream about that myself. Later on, when I've gone through this particular heartbreak that has basically torn all the plasters off whatever I was put over this abandonment wound, there was a point. There was a point in that situation where I was like, oh man, I just just was like, this pain is unbelievable.

I just, no one had, I didn't know it was possible to feel so alone and so, like, alone, not necessarily alone, actually. I had a lot of people around me, but just so profoundly damaged, you know, like, I would go to sleep and not want to wake up. I just, I preferred being in my dreams, even if they weren't nice, because I'd wake up and just have this crushing feeling of anxiety straight away that I was in this situation. I had no control over.

I felt rejected. I felt wrong. and I wasn't quite stable enough to avoid I mean to be fair I went sober and maintained that for a period of time but I was smoking a lot of cigarettes and so yeah I thought crosses your mind there was one point where I was too scared to go to get the tube because I just thought you know like who knows

like we all have that imp of the perverse you know that what if I did just thinking that one moment the moment of madness you know in front of a fucking train and it feels so achievable. So I, you know, but I was fortunate enough to have a friend and I expressed that with. I said, look, I know this sounds really mental, bro, but like I feel like I can't even get the fucking tube home. Like, I just come and stay with you for a few days.

And he did. And I love them with all my heart. And I was lucky with that. But the real wake-up call for me, and again, I don't speak about everyone. Everyone, a lot of people have different feelings around suicide. But the real wake-up call for me was when my mum called me,

and I was on the way to the studio. And I think I even recorded the song that explicitly said that I wanted to kill myself. Not like, again, as you know, there's different stages. I was certainly one, two, I wasn't anything more, I wasn't planning things. I wasn't the scary stage where I'm actually happy. Right.

Because I've made the decision, which is, as you'll know as a therapist, that's the most ages place anyone can be here when they're suddenly okay. And so my mom rung me and I was like, yeah, you know, I'm just feeling, you know, sometimes I feel like I just don't want to be here. And bro, like,

makes she feel sad now, but like hearing my mom, it's a response to that. Like, having, like, knowing that, like, I put my mom in a position where she could have to think about losing her son while she was alive, like that, for me, that was, that ended it for me. In terms of, of that being how I was going to deal with

the pain I was in, because I just going to put my mom through that. And actually, one of the most beautiful pieces of, and such, like, most articulate, simple, concise ways of explaining how I feel about suicide now. We're actually expressed by Dave. You know the rapper Dave?

Dave, yeah. He has an album called Psycho Drama. And there's a lyric which is, if you're thinking about doing it, suicide doesn't stop the pain you're only moving it, lives that you're ruining it. And, you know, I remember hearing it. And you wrote it only like 21 or something. And I was just like, fucking, that's it.

For me, if I'm ever down, like, I can't do that to people around me. And I'm now in a place where I can believe that people love me. For a long time, I couldn't believe that. But I believe that people love me. And for that reason, I will live for them more than anything. That's powerful. And I appreciate you sharing that.

You know, it's interesting seeing that you were at a place where financially you were probably, you were at your top, right? Yeah. You had paid the debts for your mother. So, in essence, you had moved her out. and if you go back to Brighton, all you wanted was to move her out of that situation, right?

So you wanted to move her out. But then here you are at a place where you're considering taking your life. So you had made her happy, but it was that idea of removing yourself how that would have crushed her. Yeah. That would have crushed her happiness

and how that in part saved you. But then also talking to your first, You know, and I think that's a part that we all need to, we all need to, I think, think, think about embodying. And that is, is that when these ideas begin to percolate to talk about it to someone that we love and trust, because just that can reduce the ideation of suicide. 100%. You know, and studies support that. 100%. point I hadn't made my mom happy by helping owe their debts or helping go with money. I hadn't.

Actually, the biggest shift was eventually after that point of engagement where I was like, fuck, that was, you know, hardcore that I'd said that my next process and most important process in the relationship between me and my mom was I actually kind of broke up with my mom. I wanted to get to this. Yeah. I wanted to get to this. So let's, we're there. We're already there. We're already there. So you broke up with your mother. Yes. This confuses me.

Yeah. So help me understand. It's complex with moms and sons, I think, because there are, again, a lot of social, there are a lot of social politics to support the idea that it's a massive green flag for moms and the sons to have a good relationship, you know, to love your mom, to be openly, outwardly loving of your mom is a good thing. But I've come to understand, of course, that. that love is a good thing if it's not codependent you know and naturally again to no thought with my mom or dad's you know I would have I might have inherited some tendencies towards codependency anyway but a single child and a single mother for being that for that being most of the situation

avoiding codependency is not impossible unless you have an emotionally secure parent and so you know I was realizing that my mom's decisions would still upset me. You know, well, I'd be nervous on the account of my mom. She would be a nervous on the account of me. Her critique of my work would be really important to me. My mom had to like it. Otherwise, I didn't like it. You know, there was this in meshment.

And I had just given her everything I could. Like, any time I got something, money, I'd give it to her. Like, it got to the point where I tried to give her a flat. I tried to give her, like, a whole property that I had. and which is a dream by the way for many especially boys who don't come from much money boys and girls anyone

but unfortunately it came in the expense of me having a house so I had you know given my mum this place I then had a fucking my life just blew up and then suddenly I didn't have anywhere to go I barely had anywhere to go

and that for me was quite a literal representation of me giving so much that I'm actually leaving myself with not even a place to repair what good am I going to be right if I'm like that So I had to stand up and go, I can't keep doing this. I can't.

And by the way, from my mom, and my therapist would be like Jordan, you're protecting her, but this is a public podcast. My mom isn't encouraging this. My mom's not going, where's my flat? Right, right. Where's my money? No, never in life.

This is me being like, I want to do this for you. I want to do this for you. But in doing so, obviously, a part of codependency is allowing for your boundaries to have been crossed. The person who is crossing your boundary sometimes it isn't even aware

that they're doing that, yes. So, so, yeah, so we got to the point where, you know, she had this dominion in my life. And so I was like, no, I need my flat. I need my place, need my space. And I need us to just step away for a moment. And this is when I was most heartbroken. So for her, of course, it's complex on a few levels, yes,

because she wants to be there to support me. And me, my personal experience, from that point onwards, the relationship to my mum and I has been incredible and there were moments after that where I pushed back on her expectation of me

be that like to even to stay at my house unannounced, to turn up at my house or something like that which should, again, to many people this is very usual but specific to me and it hurt doing that because I felt like it came at the cost of my mum's momentarily the cost of my mum's emotion

but since Paul right now me and my mum best ever. Best ever in life like our relationship same in my dad and it's both come from me sitting down i mean with my mom i wrote her a letter with my dad i sat down in front of him and had it out just and had it out and just was like this is i don't like this this is this is a good for me i want us to be separate and then we can talk again as adults to some people they're going to receive that and that will be gospel yeah to them that's going to be refreshing to hear um and it's going to be a new idea you know

this idea of breaking up. Because in essence, you didn't break up with her. What you did is you initiated boundaries on your relationship. And I think it's very important for us all to include boundaries in any relationship that we have. Platonic, professional, definitely romantic. And I think also the term boundaries end up getting conflated with other things because boundaries, in essence, are not what you're putting around.

yourself. Boundaries are what you put around your entire relationship and say in order for me to be able to sustain this relationship with you, this is what I'm going to need. And if this happens, then I can show up as my best self. Yeah, exactly. And that's exactly what you did. You know, so for that, I'm proud. And I love how you used a letter. Yeah, I did. I wrote that a big thing and she wrote one back and there was a moment of frustration, but then that's dissipated. I held my own, you know, I stood by my word even though that was pushed back. Yeah, yeah. Your parent, I guess.

Yeah, yeah. So I'm going to go home and get a letter. I'll probably get a letter from my 11-year-old. I think he's more likely to give it to me. But your life is fascinating to me because throughout each stage, even though you walk through the fire, you walk away better. That's how I look at it. Like, you walk away with the lessons, like the. The armor is etched.

You know, it's not a nice clean plate of armor. Oh, no, it's got many, many scratches. But because it has all those scratches, you have more dexterity the next time. You know, that's how, at least that's how it's felt. Yeah. Especially as it relates to your relationships. A hundred percent.

And that's, that's kind of this last chunk that I want to get to. And I was going through here. You know, I was having my little scroll on your name, looking at photos and looking at photos. looking at different relationships. And there was one that popped up that I didn't see you right about. And that is Chloe. Yeah.

Yeah. Who is Chloe? In real life. In real life. I mean. So here's why I ask that there's a type for like there's a type that you have. Yes, there was a time. Yeah, yeah.

In terms of like physical beauty. Physical beauty. 100%. Okay, so what was your type, relationship-wise? I just often found myself of, like, white brunette women. White brunette? Who had kind of, but my friend was there, pixie features. Pixie features?

Yeah, I mean, it's not too far from just, like, the fucking image where they're shoved on our throats in the west anyway. Okay. You know? Okay. It's like, if I was to pick one of the friends, it's Courtney Cox. You know what I mean? It's that look. Okay.

Okay. So in the book, Susie and Chloe. Friends been a good example because I wouldn't have even had a black woman to choose from. I'm in Brighton, you know. Charlie, I guess, Charlie, Ross's girlfriend. Yeah, yeah, yeah, there was nobody on there. There was no black people. No, black people in New York during that whole night.

Yeah, it's crazy. It's crazy. And I was there. Yeah, crazy. Man. So, all right, so Susie, Chloe, physically, same, same like. Suzy. Oh, yes, yes.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. The versions of the same type, yeah, 100%. Yeah. Okay. All right. Let's get to then Jade. Yes. Because Jade doesn't, she doesn't fit that situation.

No. So how is it that you and Jade come together? During lockdown, I did a lot of work on myself because I went through, I broke up with, I actually got back with the X that spurred all this. And then we broke up, rightly so, after having a decent rekindling. but we're just not we're just so on different pages so different and I just sat with myself and was like you know I've had a bit of a glow up I think personally then I look pretty good my hair was growing out like and I thought like let me sit down and ask myself what do I want from love there was a point towards the end of that relationship but she asked me it she said what do you want from this and I couldn't you know something was vivid remember I know exactly where I was driving at the time I was driving around the bat in Waterloo I remember it's so vividly because I just remember being like I don't I don't know you don't know what you want I don't know what you want I don't know what you want I don't know I don't lost I had completely lost sight. I was so focused on being a good boyfriend

because of what had happened in the past. I had just forgotten that like I myself require things from love. I wasn't afraid this time of a breakup because I had gone through what I'd gone to and I knew that if the feeling passed and I knew that I could rebuild myself and my soul needed it.

So I sat down and went, alright, I literally wrote a list. I literally went, what do I want from love? And I started writing down qualities that I wanted to. in a future person and then had all this spare time

I'm in lockdown and I was like oh man I fucking love Little Mix this is like I always love Lilmix as a group and I had this memory of a friend of mine being like oh you'd really get along with Jade so I just like texted it and was like

dude is Jade single like is this a vibe like what can we yeah and then me and Jay start talking and I was there wait wait wait wait give me some more detail so you text your friend so yeah so the story is I text my friend I said I knew that Jade was single actually and I said like, can you pitch me to Jade?

I said, can I pick, can he, that's all I said. He said, pitch me. Pitch me. And he's just like, he like screenshot that and just send that to Jay. Yeah. And then, and then, but then, but then I get this, I get this, uh, I get this DM out of blue. Because obviously, she's a lockdown doing fucking.

Right. Okay. Now, how long? How much time is going by? I can't remember a couple of days. Oh, gosh, she gave it a couple days. In lockdown. There's nothing to deal.

Oh, oh. Okay. maybe not then. I don't know. I actually can't remember the time. I can't remember the time. But like, I just remember like getting this DM, you know. And she's a superstar, you know what I mean? Like obviously I'd done well, but like, and actually oddly, we'd almost made a song about seven years before, but that's a whole other story. I'd never met her. And she popped in and she went, what's your pitch then? Like straight up at the DM. What's your pitch? Yeah, what's your pitch? Show me. And so I was like, hilarious. Firstly, hilarious. And then so I made

this PowerPoint presentation, which was awful. Like I mentioned, I mentioned, I meant to make it bad. See, that's my sense of humour. You made a PowerPoint pre-stitch. I made a PowerPoint straight off the bat. I was like, cool, give me a minute. So I went in. And I basically wrote, like, there's one page

was like, reasons to like me. And I was like, I've got more than five mates. I could definitely have more. My dog loves me. She obviously has funny. So we start talking and I'm tapping my mates. Listen, I'm chatting to one of little makes, like, but then I was like, oh, this is a viable.

You know, I said to my boy, like, yeah, you know, I'll see how it goes. You know, wait until these restrictions get lifted. have a little yeah but then I do a couple of these zoom dates and then I was just like looked at this list and I was like oh like she's all these things like what am I going to do here all right I'll meet up with her in person and then I'll know and then we had this date can I ask before you even got to the date yeah what was on the list well do I say uh you know what I can't remember the list exactly but there were some important factors one was actually uh uh

humor, which everyone would say. It wasn't like this was separate to what I'd already experienced. It was just like a conscious focusing on it. Okay. So like humor was massive. Fun, funny. Dancing was really important to me. And this is bizarre. But like

dancing because I'd started to visualize my future with and that being such an important element of it. You know, moments, you know, that, you know, you'll know this with your wife. You know, you go away. There's music and then you want someone you could fucking dance with. And it's good that it's your part of it. Exactly. It did also help that Jade herself is mixed race.

Just because I hadn't had the ability to connect with a person in my immediate romantic space that had also had that complex lived experience. Now I don't, this isn't to say again that this is that everyone should just mate with people who have this shed, you know? But for me, specifically with my history of dating, I was massive for me, you know. To meet her mom, her mom's black. Her mom is Yemeni Egyptian. You know, she's half Arabic and then half Georgie. She's got a wonderful father, Jimmy, who's like,

Georgie. I don't know what that is Anglo-Saxon. But she had had that complexity. She was raised in South Shields in a little town where, I mean, now in London, she would be seen as light-skinned. In Jordyland, they were fucking signing off on her yearbook saying, like good luck selling camels this kind of shit real racist shit wow so like so she had that understanding of just like the confusion of of of of that and I and I felt that is you know

this is another value that we share it's just another lived experience that we share experience yeah and so um yeah so so so so all of that kind of amounted to me ringing my mate and being like well this is a bit fucked in it because I fancy her she has all the qualities that I've deemed important for me to have a loving relationship. I'm definitely ready because I'd had a mature, certainly the rekindling was a mature relationship. I understood boundaries. You know, everything was in place.

Yeah, you're ready. So I said to him what, am I going to like keep her at arm's length, shag around and then hope that she's still like, nah. I was like, fuck it. And now we're almost, you know, five years. So in terms of committing, though, is that something that you hadn't, you had a

conversation around and was that with my friend no with with Jade oh in terms of with boyfriend a girlfriend yeah yeah like full on and the reason why I asked this is because

the whole boyfriend girlfriend thing is it's real hazy now is it oh situationships or like we're just seeing each other or you know and then also because and I know at one point

correct me if I'm wrong in the research but at one point didn't you qualify Didn't you say you consider yourself polyamorous? Oh, wow, yeah. But prior to that, way prior. But so does that mean that you then? Yeah, I mean, I think that's interesting to polyamory thing.

I kind of forgot. I didn't forget. I'm interested still. I find much like you, and again, I've listened to do you have sex experts on this podcast talk about polyamory. And I was open to the idea of an unconventional approach to love. And I still am. when I hear people talk about it, Jade and I talk about this.

Again, massive part of our relationship. She's not threatened by me talking about it. I'm not saying to her, I want to do this or I want eight girlfriends. It's nothing like that. It's just like, you know, Jade has an incredible circle of, you know, queer people around her. She loves gay culture. You know, this is a, I love gay culture. You know, this is a big part of us, her attraction to me actually was that I'm not afraid to engage with my feminine side or express myself.

way drag culture cross-dressing I did a film around that topic and so all of that has you know he's joined us in that culture that hey these guys are just trying out all different types of fucking un-comventional spaces and ways of being and so it would be I think kind of ridiculous for us to not go oh that's interesting that's that's working or not working or so we just discuss it and that in itself is almost enough for me you know monogamy I get it you know I understand especially if there's if if it's it involves ease and flexibility in terms of

thought and an expression and then then then great you know and and I think with jade she actually just asked me out she just said you want to be my boyfriend and I was like fuck yeah and that was it do you want to be my boyfriend yeah but I had to promise her that I'd be the one to say the L word first and I did I thought I loved her okay jade really hasn't seen a version of me that existed before that had

at times insurmountable intimacy issues. She's never seen it. And it was a joke early on with my close guy mate, like immediate circle that she just doesn't, has no idea that there was a time where even cuddling in bed, I would lead to me basically vibrating. Like I would be so anxious. I'd be so triggered by the concept of like,

or somebody, one thing I used to hate would be like, someone asked me, do you love me? Be like, what the fuck you're talking about? Like, we're in a relationship. Is that not enough? Right. I mean, this is before I've listened to six hour, fucking audio books about safety questions and attachment theory.

And yes, I understand that in that moment, is it really much of a compromise for me to just tell the person and assure them that it's not them asking, it's the child. I get it. I get it now. But it's what so interesting is,

I thought about that. I thought now in my relationship, Jade tells me, she loves me all the time. And I fucking love it. It's like, it's like, it's the most, the best comfort food,

but with no health risks. is no it's no sugar it's just and i'm just like and i just felt so grateful and i was just i think i was just about to leave somewhere and she was away already and she just sent me a text i love you for no reason and i was just like fucking i felt so grateful and this is a lot of the reason paul where i speak about men and young boys because i i never knew i could feel like this i never knew that there's a safety in somebody with such a she's so willing to just express it And listen, I've been party to that. I've made sure this is years of trust that's been built up.

And I get that now. And now I'm understanding partnership more and communication. And now the things that used to stress me out about like communication that doesn't even exist anymore because we just trust each other. Right. If I fall asleep, I forget to say goodnight. I love you, which I like doing. She's not going to be annoyed.

She's going to assume I fell asleep because we trust, you know. Yes. So there's those things that have shifted. But I used to think, I used to have this ardent view, you know. I tell you, I love you, spare. because then it has more value. I bet you hear this all the time. Absolutely.

Like, when I say I love you, that's, that the world, the time will stop, cars will pause. Right. You will feel it. And you cannot demand this of me. You can't say, do you love me? Right.

I used to think that. Whereas I've moved away from this idea that love needs to be something that's short on supply. Like, what the fuck? Like, I want to tell Jade, I love her all the time. I want her to tell me she loves me all the time because it's just great. Yeah, it is. Like, it's just great.

It is. What was your first date with Jade? Where was it? On Zoom. That's true. Sorry. In person. Physical.

It was in Greenwich Park. Yeah. It was in Greenwich Park. And, yeah, I just wanted to see if I liked that. I just wanted to see what the vibe was and we were both nervous and it was difficult because there were like restrictions at the time. It was just out the one side of lockdown. So, but we were there for eight hours. For eight hours.

How long did you plan to be there before? I don't know. But this is important. Yeah, this is important. Dude, there was nothing else going on. There's nothing else. But I'm sure you weren't thinking you would be there for eight hours, right? You know what?

I really had no expectations. Full disclosure, I fucking loved that first lockdown. I miss it all the time. I really do. I literally think I was like what bliss to have to wake up. And my only concern is connecting to people. I know there's an irony in that because we literally couldn't see people. But I was writing.

I was eating well. And not everyone had this experience. But I know when you did see people, the gratitude. Those first parties. Oh my God. You're like, fuck. I can't believe it. Yeah, we're together.

Oh, God. But also, though, you were falling in love. Well, yeah, I did. I was fortunate to be. But here's the other thing. And this was actually difficult for Jay to deal with. And I'd like to say this on this podcast. because it is relevant.

I didn't want to fold into the immediate experience of lust and desire. That chemical high. Yes. Which leads to what the the failing of 70, 80% of relationships because eventually the chemical stops

and you think who the fuck is this person? I don't even like them, get out of my life. Three months and most relationships end. I was painfully aware that I'd experience that four times in my life, four times, you know, convinced this person would be, so when I knew I liked her,

I said respectfully I'm not going to say I love you the first time until I am not high high on oxytocin yeah yeah yeah true

so you're not in the state of limerence the branding chemical dude it's the whole thing of like we will surf over red flags in those initial stages because we just want to fucking yeah yeah we got this person and so I knew that was coming

so I was said so I was literally using all of my energy, I was offsetting my opinion of Jade on my best friends, for a start. So I was relaying everything to them and I got them to meet her as quick as possible. Well, you're doing it all right. Dude. You're doing it all right. Because I didn't want to fuck up. That's the bad thing is when, you know, being a cheat, right, being a cheat in the middle

of the Me Too movement and someone who's been a fucking drug addict on and off, destroying myself for like the best part of 10 years, I meant it. When I was like, I'm changing my life, I fucking meant it. And I was privileged enough to have the time and space. enough money to actually face it, you know, and a lot of people don't have that. And that's why now all this work I do, the book, whatever else, it's not like, people ask me that why, it's just like, I have to, it's a duty, because not everyone has this. Not everyone can do this.

Like, dude, I'm in love. I feel love. I didn't know you could feel love. I used to be like this. Now I'm like this. Let me tell you guys about it because it's as shocking to me. Yeah. But it's beautiful that you're having this conversation.

because they're giving you qualitative feedback. Yeah. You're then taking that and then you're using that to like recalibrate how you interact with with Jade. I can't remember you spoken about how you met your wife. It was at uni, sorry. It was it was high school. It was so it was it was the year before uni. Ah, so it's a older than you.

Yep, she is. Right. She's older but so the but but the year before university is when we met. But we started as best friends. Right. Yeah, so it was just slow and like, oh, wait. Yeah, it was like, oh, oh. And you'd seen each other with other people.

Seeing each other with other people. Yeah, yeah. And that's why hearing everything you're saying, it's like, it's, you're doing it all right. And this is why I'm so curious about this. And I haven't yet heard you definitively say which route you're thinking about is. So do you believe in marriage? Yeah. So, yeah.

Do you believe that you will marry Jade? This is, unfortunately, this comes to the consequence of a headline if I do one plainly. That's just how it works. Like, that is literally a headline. I'm going to have to answer like a fucking politician. Do it. I no longer have a much issue with a day celebrating love.

Like, of all things for me to be on my high horse about, I think I can, I think I can compromise on marriage because celebrating love great commitment sure like why the fuck no right and then of course tax relief no but check check big check but there's something like I guess like the the the the spiritual element of it like the definitely not the religious element by the way the organized religious element I wouldn't want those traditional vows I'm not too concerned with any of that necessarily even the clothes. I'm sure Jade has a right opinion, but there's something beneath it, I feel, even the circle of the ring, like that idea of like an infinite circle,

there's something I think that's like deeper, like some deep, like undefinable spiritual bond that has manifested in this thing. Yes. That we have romanticized. Yes. And I fuck with it.

All right, you do. But now it's interesting because that's the, wedding. Yes. But I'm asking about marriage. It's interesting because one of the best, one of my favorite points that you made on this podcast was your idea on marriage is just be harder to get married and easier to divorce. Yes.

You should also almost have a test. Yes. I think we'd pass that test. I think, I think Jadenna would pass that test. Yeah. From everything that you said, everything I've read, I think you would. Yeah. I think there's a stability there that I've not yet experienced.

And when I weigh it up now, as long as the declaration, is done in a way that I feel is reflective of our approach to life, i.e. no one's giving Jade away to me, in my opinion. I'm not wanting to engage in this kind of latent idea that women are in some way possessions or... Fair. I don't like that. That's fair. But two people stood there looking dope as fuck. Everyone clapping and shit. Rings exchanged. Rends exchanged. Like, come on bring it on. All right. We'll do some crazy shit with the names. Yeah.

Yeah, I'm not bored about my like family lineage, but, I mean, I love my family, but, you know, might even make a new name. Might be numbers. Might be numbers. Yeah. Turn into Elon Musk out here. Well. All right. So, so wedding check.

Yeah. Marriage, yes. I'm not against it. Not against it. Okay. All right. Fatherhood. Yes.

Yes. Oh, do I want to be that? Yes. 100%. 100%. Like I go through phases about two or three months a year where I don't. I think one of the burdens of overthinkers, especially in modern society,

is rationalising how unfair it would be to have a child right now, which is a, I guess, philosophical conundrum because wouldn't we need more people, even contemplating whether it's okay for children, to be had to be having children because I tell you who is having children people who aren't thinking that people who are just

fuck it consume consume stick the telly on six kids give a fuck you know so it's like meanwhile there's like really contentious people being like this is well by burn to a crisp

I refuse to engage it's complex also I do a lot of reading of course about like you know just general gender politics and I can totally understand, you know, again, the historical pressure of motherhood, you know, the expectation upon a woman suddenly to rear a child, you know, for free. I know it's a lot. The reality is this right now in the world, boys are going for a traditional time. I love boys.

I love girls. I love boys and girls. I love children. But I think the reason I'm specified that is children are having a tough time because there is a history of fathers not. And if they're there, either not present or not emotionally present, because not having the dexterity to be able to, or not dexterity, the availability of information or freedom to engage in that or because of the typical structure,

I would love to practice what I preach. It's that simple. I really would love to try it out. You know, I've got all these ideas and thoughts and my mates, the dads, and I'm like, guys, have you read this book? And have you tried choice parenting? And then I look at their faces and, you know, I'm going to get shit wrong.

I am going to get shit wrong. This life is going to be, it's going to be, I'm going to be responsible for this life. I want to be there for my child. The dream is for Jada and I to raise a child or children who feels secure, emotionally secure in themselves. It feels like the greatest challenge facing arguably the world, certainly the West.

Yes. You know, this is something again, Gabel talks about. A large majority of children, unfortunately, because of the pressures of capitalism, are growing up with a disconnect. So the dream, imagine, imagine I was able to provide enough love and connection to a young person for them to feel securely connected and spread that feeling. That's the dream.

That is, and to that point is that typically when you have a secure person, they then help those around them become secure. Massively. Yeah, so you're right. You're like that first, your child is that. that first domino. Yeah, literally. Like, yeah, I think they say that,

doesn't they? In attachment theory that, like, secure attachment or another book, they called it an anchor. You know, you can actually pull someone. Absolutely. From anxious or from avoiding. Absolutely.

And that's like, is that not the most important thing right now? Yeah. Could that be? I know. I'm with you. I always think that, you know, like pretty much every single bad thing

that is happening in the world is as a result of emotional dysregulation. and knowing that I'm like well surely we should be working and getting people to know how to emotionally regulate there we go and that does require

considerate parenting considerate parenting so there you go and unapologetically fathers and I really mean that fathers like there are so many fucking brilliant fathers on this planet brilliant men who are doing the work

who are willing to to be there especially you know like I've seen I'm seeing like rap video with fathers holding their kids, you know? I'm seeing like adverts. I'm seeing it celebrated on,

I've just sat and listened to a fucking rap battle, Kendrick versus Drake, where one of the flexes... Right. Go ahead say it. One of Kendrick's flexes is, I'm a better dad than you. Yeah, look at that.

That's a big shift. That is. That's massive. You know? So I want to be part of that push because that energy, and, you know, there is some nuance in terms of the actual big,

but that energy, masculinity, I believe masculinity is a pure, wondrous energy that every human being can balance and that can be represented by a paternal figure. And it doesn't have to be your biological fucking child. We all have that responsibility. You're doing that right now. Yeah, I mean, I would say that I'm trying,

but I will say that that's one part of my life that I adore. Yeah. I adore. My boys are truly... I have two boys. Yeah, wow. Kingston and Lincoln.

I'm a 14-year-old, 11-year-old, and they're my buddies. But I love that for you. And I hope that you are able to enjoy that blessing. We'll see, by this. Of many children. Many children. Yeah, we have to...

Because I think you need many. Well, we need to find a way of reinstalling that balance. It's just unfortunate because, you know, children are expensive. They are. They are. They are. You are in a high-profile relationship.

So I'd love to... love to find out your thoughts, your feelings around how you navigate this. A high profile relationship. Yeah, in particular with Jade. Because it's interesting when I'm talking to a guest. Because I am listening to the words, but I'm more so watching body language. Yeah. And when we talk about Jade, I notice more of a reflection and a consideration of how

you're saying and what you're saying. True. Because, you know you deeply care about her, you're in love with her, but you also know she's high profile. Yeah. And you know that the moment you say something

that's linked to her, article after article after article. Yeah, I've definitely tripped on that in the past. Okay. Yeah. So that's just one component. Yeah. Of it.

And then you yourself are high profile as well. So you saying this, even, so you saying, it even elevates, it gives more air to whatever the statement is. So how do you go about navigating a high-profile relationship? I mean, I don't know. I feel like nowadays there's a, there's a temptation for high-profile relationships

to like maybe use their relationship or like make, the relationship part of their profile which sometimes really works you know there's the couples podcast or I don't know that's just like that's just how they present themselves which Jada and I I think I'll go as far as to say had made a conscious

attempt to take easy with that we've had loads of offers we get loads of offers to do things together I can imagine yeah and so but we you know only now we don't really like do massive post about each other. We support each other's careers unapologetically. That's always the case, which I love.

That's one of my favorite parts about this relationship. But in terms of like us, we did at least try for a long time and almost in our fifth year to just keep that to ourselves. Also just because, I don't know what you think about this, but I had seen a pattern of behavior where the more suddenly public a public relationship would become,

I felt like was maybe reflective of, it privately struggling slightly like there was a requirement of an external force to kind of keep them together so anyway so i so i overthrthing that so i everything that a little bit i would i would say i don't think that's way off okay you know but um yeah look it's straight up in terms of talking um yeah i got in trouble before because i spoke about our sex life in a podcast about about cuddling and jade was with me she was in the room when so so i i i I was on the podcast, it was on Zoom. I said what I said,

which was me talking about this time we had sex. And in the moment, I said, Jade, do you reckon we got to cut that out? Like, I don't know what the vibe is. She was like, no, I said, we've got fucking adults. We have sex. We're talking about.

Anyway, it comes out. And then I got fucking dragged by our fans for, like, weeks. Because admittedly, she has a worldwide fan base, you know, so attitudes to sex differ in those countries. And also, some of those fans are young. They're like 12. You know what I mean? so they don't get what I'm saying.

And so there's a friction there because me, I'm a transparent person. And I'm definitely of the belief that the more open people are, the better. The more honest people are, the better. So, yeah, balancing like me, especially around sex and intimacy and connection, me balancing my freedom to express my thoughts on it

whilst not speaking on behalf of her. It's something I consider. Yeah, for sure. Because it's just a headache, you know what I mean? But I do think, I think I know her enough to kind of know what she'd be cool with. She's pretty chill. So she is more than capable of discussing how she feels about things herself.

You know, so, so like, yeah, so I don't want to talk on behalf of her. But I also find that recently a lot of people love me talking about her at all, you know, because I'm very supportive of her. I adore her ambition and who she is and everything she's achieved. My girlfriend earns more money than me. She's super successful. and I fucking love it, you know, that seems like a,

it's some people that's emasculating or I don't know what their ideas are, which I find hilarious. So, but it's reflected in the fact that when I talk positively about Jade's career, they get shared loads. And it means a lot to,

I've actually had a lot of personal texts of, you know, from people who've been in situations where their partner, usually male partner, has struggled with their success or they felt emasculated by their success. Whereas for me,

Listen, I'm successful. I can totally support myself. But having somebody who doesn't require me to support them for the first time in my life ever is unreal. And of course I do. Of course I'm not a scrounge. Should I mean? Whatever I can do,

there's certainly equity within our relationship, you know? That's important. It's imperative. I mean, again, your story too is counter to so many narratives that people have fed in these hyper-real scenarios. Yeah, yeah. It's, it is unfortunate. But one thing that, you know, is interesting,

you said this is you started talking about Jade and you looked at me, you were like, she's a superstar. Yeah. You know, you could see, I can see in your eyes, like you, she is your superstar. Yeah. 100%.

Super important rule in a relationship. She's my superstar and I'm her superstar. I think. Enough to ask her. No, yeah, yeah. And I think, I think so. She's very, like, she's, she's so supportive with me as well.

It's like, it's really, yeah. But yeah, she's my super stuff for sure. Yeah, all right. Done on that then. Yeah. Also, I just, I do just want to praise you because I do think it's one of the reasons why I love this podcast so much

and why I did DM you just randomly. Do you see that saying, you're great or something like that? I messaged you out because I, I can't explain how important it is to me to see a man in this space, like discuss his wife and family with such beauty. Have an open conversation. You look fucking cool, which helps. Because that's also been an issue, if I'm being frank, in terms of coding.

I mean, it can be that basic. I'm sure you see that. Young men, they look for coding. They look for identification. Most of these kids, once these young boys won't even wear anything other than fucking black and navy blue. You know what I mean? And I just want people to know

because I understand that there's a growing male fan base of this podcast, but in its growth, I want people to know and remember that you're in a good place. I feel like I'm in a good place. And if I'm going to listen to people discuss relationships and love and stability and security, I want to be listening to conversations you're having. I don't want to be listening to conversations

from people who have shown me none of them. I say I don't want to be what do I say I don't want to buy a lifeboat or someone who can't say I don't know something like that I don't know

but I think that's important man and I just want to say and I thank you and I was buzzing when you reached out about this because I think it's a great platform and I've learned a lot I appreciate it and I appreciate you

I appreciate your journey you know and it's one of these where I am so happy for your next chapter given everything that you've learned, everything that you've experienced, all these tools that you're going to bring to it. And I'm telling you right now,

but you already know that you're going to be there is fatherhood is going to change your world. In a good way. In the best way possible. Scary. In the best way. Okay. The best way possible.

Yeah. So thank you. Thank you for being here. So final question. Oh, yeah. Everybody gets the final question. Yeah, of course. I can't wait to hear your answer to this.

Final question is, if you think throughout your 33 years on this planet, you've had incredible conversations. If you think about the one that is the most memorable, who was it with? Would you learn what was discussed? All right. I'm going to go with what's come to me.

Okay. This can't be, you know, again, I'd overthink. As a disclaimer, I've been had loads and loads of incredible advice. but there was a point in the in the probably like the nearly the lowest point of my heartbreak where I was ringing people a lot like I was doing things that people don't do I was reaching out so I was reaching out a lot of smoking a lot of cigarettes I was but I was manic and I kept ringing my best mate kept ringing him you know but but but but and I was trying to manipulate the scenario I was in,

trying to intellectualize, oh, but my, my, at the time, my ex, yeah, my ex, oh, she doesn't get it, you know, but this and that, like, how can she not see this? How can she not do?

Da, da, da, da, da, da. And I was just, it was going, this, you know, manic, manic, manic. Okay. And he just went, Jordan, no one is going to save you. Just like that. And it was bizarre because,

standalone, it's quite hard. It's quite hardcore. Yeah. It's quite a tough love. It's a tough lesson. But he wasn't saying this as someone who was just randomly, this is not my best friend, you know. And he was just saying that like,

we can't do this for you. This journey predominantly must come from you. And I tell you what, for me personally, when I'm not worth everyone, that was a huge turning point in my recovery. So it was literally someone saying, no one's going to save you. And then at that point, you begin to take responsibility.

Yeah, crazy. Yeah. You feel like that could have gone another way. Yeah. Listen, I can hear, when I say it, you know, I'm sure there's other advice I can think in my head where someone goes, you know, you know, early bird gets the worm, second mouse gets the cheese. You know what I mean? Don't rush into things because actually if you take your time, it might work out better. That I can see as a kind, you know, is not.

But when you ask me the question, I was brought back immediately to being in my kitchen, smoking my 25th cigarette of the day and my best, you know, you. You know, one of the closest people in my life. Yes. Dealt me one of the most firm lessons. And it was just a wake-up call. That's it. Like, some people don't react to cold water in the face. Some people need cuddling and, you know, if I talk about me creatively,

I'm a baby creatively. I need people to tell me in the nicest language possible that I'm the fantastic, which is ridiculous. But in that moment, it was a wake-up. What? What the fuck am I doing? And I still need their help, but come on. Yeah.

well so I tell you what we're appreciative that he did that yeah because yeah I'm here because you're here I'm here and I really there can be balanced that energy can be balanced it was just a truth it wasn't no one's going to save you

you're annoying me it wasn't if you don't save yourself something's gonna it's none of that it was just the truth and it is the truth Paul I think you can agree I'm sure you see this when you speak to people yes I can help I can okay what's the other one you can take a horse to water yeah can't make him drink

Yeah, yeah. You know? So it has to, and everyone has that ability inside them to step up for themselves, you know. I love it. I loved it. Thank you, sir. Love, man. Thank you.

Thank you. Man, no, no, I want a hug. Come on. Here, we're here. I love Jordan. I almost hesitate to say this, but I don't know if I've ever seen someone so well adjusted, given all of the traumatic experiences in his life. I could feel that when he sat down, he wanted to have a conversation.

You know, he wanted to engage. He's a fan of the podcast. It's so lovely to see. Jordan has now been with Jade for five years. I don't think they would have lasted five months if he had not done the work ahead of time. But the work, what was the work? I mean, he talked about how he got through heartbreak, how he learned from cheating, which led him to create this list.

And so he was able to walk into that relationship clear on his identity, who he is, without having a vision for our life. So a goal of our destination, it impacts our well-being. We've now had a few guests who have talked about having ideas and thoughts around suicide.

And what I find to be a commonality is the importance of telling someone that you love and trust. Jordan told a friend. He then told his mother. And as a result, you can see how that reduces suicidal ideation. And we know that the research supports this. That can save your life.

It saved Jordans. I mean, he's only 33. That is young, right? He's done so many incredible things with his life. but here is someone who has not only gone through all of these challenges, but now is at a place where he's in a very strong relationship with not just a partner, but with his parents. He's happy in life.

He is seven years sober. You know, he should run for prime minister at some point. You know what I mean? He is underrated. One of the most important voices of our day, right there.