We Need To Talk with Paul C. Brunson - Joshua Cavallo: The Pressure of Being The Only Openly Gay Footballer And Why So Many Stay Silent

Episode Date: December 2, 2025

Professional footballer Joshua Cavallo opens up about coming out as the world’s only openly gay active male footballer - and the reality he faced once the headlines faded. From his coach’s immediate response to the fear he’d lose the career he’d worked his whole life for, Josh reveals why so many gay players still feel unable to speak their truth. Josh reflects on the years he spent living a double life, the isolation that defined his teens, and the moment he finally chose honesty over fear. He also shares the global ripple effect of his coming-out video, the abuse he’s endured in stadiums and online, and how falling in love with fiancé Leighton changed everything. Josh reveals: ◽ Why he believes LGBTQ+ rights are moving backwards ◽ The family expectations he grew up with and why he felt he could never truly be himself ◽ The double life he lived as a teenager and the mental toll of hiding who he was ◽ The coming out letter he wrote to his family ◽ The conversation with his coaches that changed everything ◽ Why so many gay footballers still stay silent ◽ The homophobia he still faces every day ◽ How he secretly mentors closeted professional players ◽ How he proposed to his partner Leighton  Josh Cavallo. We Need To Talk Follow me here: https://www.instagram.com/needtotalk https://www.tiktok.com/@weneedtotalkpod (00:00) Intro (03:35) How Josh's Maltese Heritage Shaped His Upbringing (06:11) Paul Shows Josh a Childhood Photo (07:57) What Josh Learned About Love From His Grandfather (09:48) When Josh First Realised He Was Gay (11:27) Josh on Developing and Maintaining a ‘Mask’ (14:22) Support Josh Had Starting Out in the Football Industry (18:26) Leaving Dating Apps and Meeting His Fiancée (23:33) How Josh Came Out To His Family (33:03) How Josh Came Out to His Teammates (37:20) Public Reaction to Josh Coming Out (40:20) How Josh Realised He Wanted to Be an Advocate (42:43) Did the League Embrace Josh’s News? (43:44) Surprise Video Message For Josh (46:20) Statistics Around Homophobia in Football (48:05) Josh’s View on Homophobia in Today’s Football (49:09) Why Josh Thinks the Problem Is Getting Worse (51:23) Why Other Athletes Aren’t Coming Out (52:18) Josh’s Experience of a Homophobic Attack (54:52) Being on the Cover of Attitude Magazine (56:26) Too Good To Go Ad (57:42) Differences Playing Football in Australia vs the UK (59:51) Times Josh Felt Unsafe on the Pitch (01:05:21) Mentoring Closeted Footballers (01:09:16) The Story of Josh's Proposal to His Fiancée (01:13:35) Video Message From Fiancée Leighton (01:16:26) Josh and Leighton on Having Children (01:19:12) Adobe Express Ad (01:20:19) Huel Ad (01:21:45) How to Stop the Backslide in Civil Rights (01:29:40) The Hypocrisy of the Qatar World Cup (01:34:44) Josh’s Message to the Queer Community (01:35:31) Most Memorable Conversation (01:38:29) Paul’s Takeaways Sponsored by: Sponsored by: Too Good To Go: Download the Too Good To Go App to get started Adobe Express: https://ADOBE.LY/ONEBETTER  Huel: https://uk.huel.com/WNTT with code WNTT Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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That's when I saw, okay, that person that pat you on the back for coming out didn't mean it because when it counts, they're not there. Yeah. I never knew little Joshy could even play football and be gay. It turned to a point where I won best young player of that season and having to act and hide from these people and I'm getting such a privilege award.

It killed me. We had a huddle in the change room and I announced who I was. To the team. And I thought that I'm not gonna have a football contract. That's me hanging. up my boots. So it was incredible to see how much love and support was coming my way. What happened next? It was me just at a petrol station filling up my car and it was so approaching me from behind trying to hit me. Have there been times where you have felt unsafe on the

pitch? I channeled all that into being the best football I can possibly be and it's basically to say F you to all the haters. Finding myself in a club was so welcoming. It made so much sense for my proposal to be there. I'm in a football pitch and I'm kissing my fiancé. This is nuts. I can't imagine what it's like to walk in your shoes. If I had to go back, my one message would be. Hey there, before we get started,

I just want to say a huge thank you for being here and watching the show. It's really one of the greatest honors of my career to have these conversations. Can I ask a small favor? Hit the subscribe button, please. It's just one click. It's completely free and it helps us grow the community. The more we grow, the bigger the guests we can bring on, and the deeper the conversations we can have. Thank you, truly, it means a lot.

Josh Cavallo, we need to talk. We need to talk. Thank you for having me, Paul. I'm honored to be here. You know, it is an honor to have you here. It wasn't until the last two years that I've become a football fan. You know what I mean? But I've always been a fan of civil rights.

I've always been a fan of representation. And I think this conversation for me, why I'm so excited about it, is it merges all of that. And I can't wait to unpack it all. We can talk all day, Paul. This could go day and night for me to be fair. I feel like we're in different industries and different fields, but we understand and we're connected and we know what it feels like to be that lone person in a field where people look at you and people point at you.

So I feel very comfortable in this space here. that you understand, have experience to some extent of what my everyday life is. Yes, yes. Can we begin then with Malta? Really? Love that. Yeah, yeah. And the reason why is because I just visited Malta this year.

What did your thoughts? Loved it. Amazing, right? Loved it to the point where I could see myself living in Malta. And you want to talk about representation too is I will never forget. We're walking down this beautiful street in Malta, and this Maltese man who appears to be 80, 90 years old, walks up, and he was like, I love black people.

This is the first thing that he says. But I think my interpretation, because we then had this whole conversation is, my interpretation is he wanted to ensure that we felt welcomed. That was what my walkaway was. But when you think about, because your heritage, you've Maltese heritage, how do you think that that heritage impacted you growing up as a young boy? Yeah, it was quite tough at times. I feel like being from a European background, half Maltese, half Italian, there's that expectation, especially when I grew up to have children, to have a wife.

Interesting. So I felt like that was the only way forward for myself. and that's the non-negotiable of what I must follow and what I must do. So to see that even visiting these countries, especially Malta, and seeing how progressed it is and how it was one of the first LGBTQ places to legalize same-sex marriages, is just astonishing to see. But living all the way on the other side of the world in Australia,

it's difficult to see these things in person. And I feel that as I grew up and came out as Joshua Cavallo, the real person I wanted to show the world, I am seeing there's countries that love you for being you. And it doesn't matter what sex you are or what religion background you are or what ethnicity you are. It's people of welcoming you. And sometimes people don't know how to say it in the right educational way. And they'll say it in a way that could be quite offensive, but they mean well. And I feel like that's a spot where people like myself and you can come in and educate these people.

And that's something that I've really enjoyed in this process of four years of coming out with my platform is to make people aware of what's okay and what's not okay. Okay, fair enough, fair enough. So now you felt it's interesting because you're saying between the Maltese and Italian culture, that heritage, you felt pressure to have a big family. That's what I've ever known growing up. Like in Melbourne, Australia, that's what we do. And that's the only way that I thought is forward. And to see my brother get into a relationship and he's a straight male and to see that that's something that I need to do for someone else in my family and my cousin doing the same thing, it was pressure that I thought, oh, this is the only way forward and this is the only way I can do this. But it's actually really nice to see the reception I got from my family and the reception I got from my mum and dad to see how welcoming they were in this space and to see where we've moved on today with my fiancé as well.

and how they're welcome to me. It's just absolutely incredible. I never thought I would be able to say this proudly that my parents accept me for who I am. Yes, but now growing up, though, let's look at this, Josh. You ready? I'll have a few surprises for you.

Okay. So describe to me this photo and how old this young man is. Oh, my daze. Are you trying to make me cry on set or something? This is nuts. So this was my first day in prep. Okay. Yeah.

That's young? Yeah, I was very young. And I had a very close relationship with my grandfather, who's no longer with us today. He passed away. But he was my father figure growing up. My parents worked very hard to get what they've got today, and they had a business and are working, God knows what hours, early mornings to late night. So we had to have someone to look after us.

And my grandfather, for me, was that father figure. I would always be at his place. I'd always be there. Name it, I'm there. But I wish I could talk to him at that time to say everything's going to be okay. It doesn't matter what, I didn't know what was happening there. And obviously, I didn't know my sexuality. I didn't know what I was in for, even if I wanted to be a professional football at that time.

You don't know. Yes. But to see the path I've had and to come from this is incredible. Yeah. So it's very close to my heart this one. Yeah. I love it. I love it.

So about how old are you in that photo, you think? I think it was about six. About six. Yeah. Okay. And what I find striking about what you just said is that your grandfather was your father figure. So when you think about at six, what did you learn about love from your grandfather? I kid you not.

He was the person that I looked up to and he was the reason why I went down that journey of football. We would go to his house, football was on television, we would sit in front of the TV. I would sit like so close to it and he would be there with his cup of tea and we'll just watch football, football, football. So I think that's where my love for the game kind of sparked. And when he passed, it was seeing that that really motivated me to take my game to the next level and at the time I was 16 when he passed, I ended up getting a professional contract a month

after he passed away. So I felt like that was his doing, he was doing something up there in the universe for me to reward me for what I've been doing, what I've been working hard for in my whole life. And it was very young to get professional contract at that age. So I didn't really know what I was in for. That was kind of the age where I was working out my sexuality as well. And to see that I wish he could see me now and I know that he didn't get to experience my coming out but I know he would be so proud of who I've become as a person today. Love it. I'm going to hold on today's.

We have many more of these. Oh, stop. You've got to make the tears coming out. You had an older brother. You have an older brother. And your brother also plays football. Yes. So you think was it your grandfather that also inspired your brother as well?

Absolutely. Exactly. He was the man of the house that we all looked up to. Like, my brother and I are the only two children, and that's where we were on a Saturday or Sunday. Or he would take us to our sporting events. And he was that person, that role that looked after us. It was the last person we see when we went to bed. It was the first person we woke up. So he was that person for us.

So let's go back to 16. At 16, you said you're trying to figure out who you are, including your sexuality. So what, when was the first moment that you internally, that you knew you were gay? I think for myself, I had a really close breast friend and she's name was Sarah, Sarah Altamari. And I grew up with her by my side. And I remember I was at like a school party and she came up to me and asked me for a photo. And that was the first time a fan ever asked me for a photo at 16. Like, I was super young, right?

And I was over the moon that I got asked to have a photo with someone. And then she ended up becoming my best friend and was so close. And it almost turned into like, we're in a relationship kind of vibe. Okay. And that was for me, me forcing myself and saying, no, it has to work. I had feelings of I was at school and I was like, kind of boys caught my eye in certain spaces. And I was like, oh, that can't be allowed. I'm not allowed to think like that.

I have to think one way and one way only. And it took me time and I went through this journey and this experience. And then I finally expanded and tried with a guy. And that for me was the opening of, this is who I'm meant to be. This is comfortable. This is like, this is Josh kind of vibe. Okay. You know what, Josh, here's, if you could really, like, enlighten me on this, right?

Because I can't imagine having a thought that is natural to you. and then having to self-correct and say, I'm not allowed to think this way. What was that like to have that conflict? And how were you able to convince yourself not to think a certain way? Yeah, it was tough because change rooms, entering a change room, that laid that thick on me. You have to act a certain way. You have to think a certain way. And I think from 16 onwards, when I started realizing what I like and who I am as a person,

And I also wanted to perform at such a high level and the best foot forward I could for my career. But being in a change room, you want to be friends with your teammates. You want to relate to them in certain ways. And they would ask questions and they would say things. And I'm sitting there thinking about I'm actually gay. And I have to make up a story of I took a girl to a movies and did a date and did this and did that. And then I think the forefront for me was having to have that 24-7 act, literally like I had a mask on. It felt like I had to paint a picture for people that actually didn't know who Josh was as a person.

How does it, how do you reconcile that? Because you have, because you know it's a mask, right? And you have to wear it, you said 24-7. So are you wearing the mask even at home? Absolutely. Really? With your brother. It doesn't stop.

It goes from your parents to your brother, to your family members, to your friends, to people at school. There's no switching off. And it's almost like you brainwash your head into thinking you have to act a certain way. So you're putting this forefront on them. You don't actually get to be Josh. And that's the thing for me. What is life worth living if you can't be that person behind the mask? And that was a time for me in my footballing journey when I was about 19, 20, 21,

I started to feel a real sense of this is not my life. This is not who I want to be growing up. I know in the world of football, we had Justin Falts, who come out. He was, yeah, a first openly active gay player. Active gay player. Okay. And then he had a lot of racism come his way. And soon after he's coming out, he couldn't deal with what was facing his way, the backlash of racism and homophobia, and then ended up taking his life. So going through my journey and seeing that that was a field that I didn't

want to repeat and I didn't want people to look up and say, that's how it ends. That's how that story is written. And I wanted to show everyone that I'm living proof of you can be who you are, be happy who you are and be authentically, unapologetically yourself and be okay with that. Yes, yes. However, though, when Justin took his life, you're still wearing the mask completely. And I would imagine that that story of Justin makes you now want to double down on the mask. Absolutely. Yeah. Did you have anyone who was a mask? gay in your social circle, in your community that you could look up to. It's a funny one.

When I was finding this, it turned to a point to me where I was 21 and I was like, I just went to a new football team in Adelaide in Australia and I won best young player of that season. And it was a new team that I went into and having to act and hide from these people. and I'm getting such a privileged award that you work so hard for your career. Yes, you want to win the league. Yes, you want to win games for your team.

But to get recognized individually for who you are and what talent you've got and how well you did and you still can't be that person, it killed me. I couldn't bear it. I couldn't have that face where I could be happy accepting award. And I literally went home that night from the awards night

and cried myself to sleep. It was one of the worst nights to be on such a high in football. This is the epitome of what you want, right? and achieve to be so down and out in my personal space and not happy with how I wanted to live and exist in this world. Yeah. So doesn't that impact even your performance on the pitch?

Absolutely. A question to myself was, imagine if they knew, how much better could I be? I'm having a drink break. I'm getting asked about what I did on the weekend. And I'm trying to think and make up a story that aligns with someone that I've told in the change rooms 30 minutes ago and someone that I've told in the car on the way to training. And all the same time, it's drink break and I'm supposed to be playing football and being at my best. But I'm thinking about fake scenarios.

It is such a distraction to who I was as a football line to get recognized at such a high level and to still be having a 24-7 act. It just made me think I can't live like this. I want to evolve and I want to be that person that takes the reins in that. step and be an advocate and be unapologetic. I don't care if you don't like me. I'm not going to change what I do and how I live my life. Did you have relationships though between 16 and 19? Because if you are, I would imagine you also have that double pressure of now you have to ensure that you are not seen whatsoever. Absolutely. I feel like dating was a real problem for when I wasn't out.

It was a time where I would connect with people that was the same sexuality of me, but I would be so obnoxious to not do it in public, to do it behind closed doors, to do it. And I noticed that I was in a room like very similar to this, a very small room with someone that I liked. And I didn't worry about anything around the world. Didn't worry about my football. Didn't worry about any friends. Didn't worry about anything.

I was just happy. And I was like, this is the life I wanted to live. And it was just me sitting in a couch talking to someone. someone that had the same sexuality as me and getting along and being nice to each other. That was literally it. I think the turning point for me was seeing my best friend Sarah think she was the issue in our relationship because I wouldn't pursue sexual interactions. I would be forcing to do things that I wouldn't like.

And I think seeing the weight on her shoulders also meant that I can't continue a life like that. It's not fair to do that to someone and make them think that there's something wrong with themselves when really the issue is me not accepting who I was as a person. Yes, yes. So there's a dating app that I head up global research for. And one of the interesting pieces of data that I've seen is that many of our queer men come out on the app. before they come out to their friends and family. That's something that I didn't realize. So in your journey, in your coming out journey,

did you talk to your parents and family first or no? Absolutely not. And this is the whole point of living the double life. And it leads on to how I met my fiancee. Okay. Is that I was on the app and I was not displaying my face. You can don't have to have a photo. You can be discreet.

You don't have to. People that aren't out with their sexuality are allowed to access and message people that are, have their dating profile, just like Tinder, just like anything. And I reached out to my current fiance and the whole point of me not living the life and hiding behind a mask is that he thought I was fake. So he blocked me. And that for me was like, I can't even pursue what I want. and it's just something that I can't continue living, a life that I have to hide away and be ashamed of.

Why? Because you like holding a guy's hand, because you have attraction to a male. It's laughable, but that is the scenario of so many millions of people around the world right now. And I'm so lucky to be in a position where I can be out and loud and proud in the UK and be who I want, unapologetic myself. But there's people around this world that I'm... I can't afford to do that stuff. So how old were you when you reach out to him?

I was, that's a good question. I think I was about 19. It was kind of an ego hit in the face where I explained to who I was, gave him my Instagram and said, this is me. I'm not out. This is my situation. Please respect my thing, but I find you really attractive. And then it got followed up with gone.

So he was removed from me. But then, which is such a big. Bittersweet moment when my announcement was, happened and took place and I got a message from this person, who's my fiance, saying that he saw me on TV and he apologizes for thinking I was fake. Yes. And that he can't believe that he judged a book by its cover and like, it's just crazy, right? But, but I'm putting myself in his shoes.

I would have thought you were fake too. Right. You know, because one is you didn't have the photo. Right. But also because you, he was probably familiar maybe with you, the athlete, not as the individual. And also, I think that's a lot of trust that you placed in him. Strangers. And so help me understand that, right? Is you don't tell your parents, your brother, even your best friend, but you tell a stranger. Nuts, right. Why? I think because it was, I had a thing when I first was doing this and my strategy was,

how can I not get caught, right? And it was the fact that I would message people out in different towns, not in my town. So if my fiancee lived in Perth, that was very far away from Melbourne, so it wouldn't track back to anyone that would know of someone and know of this. And you kind of become like a sponsor. and you investigate and it's really, really, really pathetic if you think about it. But this is what every, as I'm speaking right now, there would be someone doing this as well. And it's a sad reality of it because sometimes I wish I could tell that little Josh here,

it's not that deep mate. You can go and be whoever you want and go and tell your parents and go and tell your brother. They're going to be there to give you the biggest hug. Yes. And it's all going to be okay. But you were thinking, though, that what, if someone, if someone, Someone found out that it would what jeopardize your football, jeopardize the relationship with your parents and your brother. You thought that.

Absolutely. You think everything's at risk. You know, I research so much about gay professional footballers. Nothing came up. Am I going to be the next Justin? Am I going to take my life because of what someone on the other side of the world is sitting on their couch thinks of me? So that's the messaging that I have grown in these lines. last four years and they've had this shell and like the things that do come my way is obscene

and so disgusting people saying, I all things under the sun to get rid of my existence on this earth. But you were already, you were already believing that could happen to you, right? Because I can imagine you're, I mean, you're still, you're playing. You're hearing what fans are saying. You are hearing probably what teammates are saying and alluding to. and you just don't want any of that coming your way, right? So you're trying to keep yourself safe.

And so I can, it's interesting because for me, I can see other incidents of life where if you don't feel safe with the people around you, you need someone to talk to. You need someone to share that with. So at what point, though, do you tell your family? It's crazy because I didn't even trust a therapist. That's someone that I was like, I was at school and I was like, I might go and talk to her. I can't do that. I can't tell anyone.

No one needs to know. There's a slight chance that this person will tell my parents or tell someone I knew or one of my friends at school. I feel like I was stuck in a world that wasn't built for me and didn't accept Josh where football and being LGBTQ plus is okay. And to see that in how it's evolved in the space of I'm still not welcomed in this community of football, but to see the impact I've had and people coming out and having representation in all different sports and seeing how I can really change someone's life, even if they're a primary school kid, is quite life-changing. Yes, yes.

So, wow, you didn't feel safe enough to sell a therapist. No. It's crazy, right? Yeah, it's interesting because your therapist, you're supposed to have a private relationship with your therapist. So if you couldn't tell your therapist, you told people you didn't know, but who was the first in your family that you told? I, after I received that award, I had off-season and I was 20 and I had the Best Young Player Award. I remember going to my hometown in Melbourne and we had six weeks break. And I said, right, in this six weeks, I'm going to be who I want to be.

I'm going to plan out what I'm going to do. And it got to the last day of the holiday that I was having at home. And I wrote a letter. Oh, wow. And I wrote it to my mom, dad and my brother. And I was going to put it underneath the couch and then drive to Adelaide, which is an eight-hour drive. So I would tell them to open up the letter and read it when I'm long gone.

because I thought that would just not accept me for who I was and just that's it. I'm finished in this family. So I feel like that was the only safe space I could do it without being in trouble or frowned upon or told off. It was a really scary time for me because that was literally the first time in all these years. This mask was dropped. Yes. And also I can't. I mean, my heart really just sunk because you slid that letter thinking that you

would not be accepted. So you probably thought that was the last time that you'd be. I'll see them. You see them? Yeah. It's actually, it baffles me because that was my thinking. And it's difficult because to see their reaction and to see what's happened now and how much they've evolved is being absolutely incredible.

But these are the things you do when you're at this point. You're so in your head. You're so locked and stuck. You don't want to open up to anyone about it. It was tough for me because I just thought on a career aspect, I'm finished. That's it. I'm going to go and do other work and work in a different space because that's me hanging up my boots and I'm not allowed to be who I am.

You are, yes. So then did you ultimately, you wrote the letter? Yeah. Slid it under the couch. Yeah. I wrote it about four times. And I remember making a video and recording myself and talking to the camera and saying, this is it. This is Josh letting go. This is Josh finally putting his armor down and showing the real

person who he is. And it's actually really sad because I didn't have the balls to do it in person to my mum and dad. And that would have been such a lovely reaction to see and the joy. And that's something that I missed out and I'll never get back is seeing their reaction with it and seeing how much of a not of an issue it was. I think after the coming out with my family, they were so upset and angry that I had lived this life till 21 and not felt comfortable to speak to anyone in my family about it, whether that was my brother, whether that was my mum,

whether that was my dad. How did you all reconcile that? Because I can imagine they, because what it sounds like is they read that letter and they immediately accepted the fullness of you. Absolutely. I think it took me by surprise because there wasn't much of a reaction.

I thought literally, yes, my parents have raised me to 21 here and this is my time to say goodbye. And it's nuts to think that that's the way I programmed myself to think. But did they ever, did your family ever give you a reason to believe that? you would not be accepted. I think it's the masculinity thing. There was times where I was younger and would be in the car

and would drive past two guys holding hands and my dad would say something obnoxious out the window. Not to them personally, but loud enough that we can hear in the car. And it wasn't anything offensive. It was just something to joke about and to, oh, look at these guys. And it wasn't just my father. there was other people as well in my family that would trigger me and that would only push me so far deep back into who I was

and not comfortable to be safe around them. And I feel like growing up, that's why I had such a detachment from my father. And that's why my grandfather for me was that person. Yes, yes. So there was a fear that your father would not accept you at all. Absolutely, yeah. I remember I would go straight to my room when I got home. I wouldn't socialize with my parents.

I wouldn't hang out with them. I'd lock myself in my room and I did that for years. And my parents all thought it was part of growing up being a teenager. You know, don't want to hang around with your parents. And I would isolate myself a lot. So you end up becoming your only friend. And that's something that I really struggled with. And they understood why I did that when I came out.

And right now to see that they're my biggest cheerleaders and support. quarters is absolutely insane. Yeah, yeah. But it sounds like then growing up, you know, you were quite lonely. I was very lonely. Yeah. I didn't trust anyone. I didn't trust friends.

The thing was I had really close friends. I was lying to them the whole time. So how can I call someone a close friend and be nice to them when I'm lying straight to their face? It is really hard to explain to the public what it's like in the shoes of someone that, that doesn't feel like they have a place in society. That was what I was struggling with all my teenagehood. And I almost feel like my growing up,

I had to grow up very quickly and then forget to enjoy those years, which is the most funnest thing of growing up through high school and enjoying yourself. So I do feel like that got taken away from me and caused me to be a lot more mature of how I am today as a person. Yeah. You know, with so many people who have, whether they have been ostracized by society or family, or they have ostracized themselves, they typically become what's considered avoidant in their attachment.

And normally people who are avoidant, you know what, they become very successful in their careers. Because they begin to learn to, the only person they can rely on is themselves. Themselves. you know and it and it's interesting i didn't know this about you but now i can begin to see how you probably took all of that energy you doubled down on football doubled down on becoming extraordinary football and you also have the motivation of your grandfather who had passed knowing that you're doing it for him as well absolutely i feel like that was the only space that i had could have a break not talk to anyone put my head down

and just show my talent and ability and be judged on that. And it wasn't a fact of me. Yes, it was me also being isolating in the change room, not really socializing with anyone, avoiding showers, avoiding spaces where I felt uncomfortable or I'd be looked at in a certain way, or people might think that I'm gay if I'm doing a certain walk or a certain clothes that I wear.

So I channeled all that into being the best football I can possibly be, And it's basically to say, literally today I can look at it and say that was my big FU to all the haters that think that I am not good enough to be where I am today and in the position of Joshua Covello, the footballer. Yes, yes. So when you, you've written the letter, your parents receive it, right? I would imagine that's a very emotional conversation that happens. So your family now knows, your close family now knows, what's the next step that you take to really liberate yourself? So the next day I was in the change room

and I went to the coach's office. I knocked on the coach's office at the time. There was two coaches in there. And one of them was very close with me because he was like, he knew I was living away from home. I'm young, I'm 21. He was kind of like made sure I was always okay. and his name was Ross Aloisi

and he was someone that I would confine in in space of getting better as an athlete and getting better professionally. So I felt comfortable speaking to him and I said that he's going to be the first person I'm going to tell. So I knocked on the coach's dressing room and they were there sitting in the office

just Ross himself and I said there's something that I need to tell you and he said, you're not going back home there's no chance you're going back home and I said no no it's not that and he's like, what have you done? What have you done? Like, are we in trouble here?

Like, and I said, no, no, it's not that, something else. And he's like, what? And I said, I'm coming out and I'm gay. This is who I am. And he laughed. And I was like, what is going on here? And he's like, is that it? He's like, get out of my train room.

It's fine. There's no big deal. I don't care if you like boys. I don't care if you like girls. As long as you're performing on the field for me, I couldn't give a rat's bum what you do off the field. and I was like, what is going on now? I couldn't believe in my eyes.

Like, this is something that I would never ever tell a person before. I was telling, this is the first person I was telling ever. Yes. So it was so rehearsed in my head. I was sweating. I didn't know what to think. And he helped me and said, how can I support you? How can we do this in a way that you want to do it?

The main coach walked in. And he said, he kind of gave me the nod, Ross, the assistant coach. and he said, Carl, sit down, he's the main coach, and he says Josh needs to tell you something. And then I said the same thing to the coach, and he said, there's no problem, buddy. He's like, I have the same thing in my family. I don't know why you're so scared to tell us who you are.

Obviously, they don't understand that I would be the first in the world in that space that's actively playing, existing in male, top flight professional football. So they just guided me and I walked out of that coach's room and I trained and I felt like just those two people knowing I had 15 kilos off my shoulders. Yeah. And to see that and feel that, I was like, that is two people in my life that know. Imagine if I told my teammates, imagine if I told my friends.

Imagine if I came out to the world. And they said to me, Josh, what would you like to do? And after that session, we had a huddle in the change room and I announced who I was. To the team. To the team. And to see this masculine environment of men, stinky, like, it's a football change room, right, I'm painting the picture. And to see each and every one of their eyes tear up and get emotional to see that this is

something I've hid for so long. And it made sense why I was acting so isolated to everyone. And once I walked out of that change room, everyone was gobsmacked, gave me a hug, and it was incredible. There's footage online of it. And I pressed the post button. I posted a video of me coming out to the world. And that's when I stepped out of that change in my life changed. Wow. What a story. Crazy right. What a story. I mean, when I go back to just you and the coat and the two coaches, there must be, maybe there wasn't any conversation around the fact that you, by saying this, you would be the first openly gay player of a top flight team in the

world. This is a world, this is, this is a, you know, it's interesting, and I look at this, this, I will say this like, this is one of the most significant events in football. So was there any conversation around that? I don't think they really understood what this meant in that space. I think they were just shocked that I would even bring that up with them and thought that I was walking out of that coach's room and I'm finished for the football. And that's not what happened. And to see how they all came together, my teammates and my coaches and see how supportive

they were, it really made me think I should have done that earlier. So it was literally like putting that mask I had on my face in a box and putting that box away. It was the most like thrilling day of my life and it's the best day I've ever existed was that that day. That day. So you were how old that day? 21. 21. 21.

Right. A magical age for many people, you know. But what is also to me, I think so profound is at 21 was the first time. since you were here because you didn't have a mask on here. And then after this Josh, you had to put a mask on and you lived with the mask for many, many years, right? What immediately happens once you hit post? I have never seen my phone explode like that before with notifications. It was started coming through of teams sharing it, news articles popping up, a Google search popped up of my name and I was like, what is, like, it literally found like a movie.

It was notified to me that was 500,000 messages in a space of 30 minutes. 500,000 messages just to you. Yeah. So it was incredible to see how much love and support was coming my way. And these are strangers. people that I thought that I'm driving home now because I'm not going to have a football contract. I'm done with football. Like I'm going to go work in a local store and just be Josh.

That wasn't the case. It was the case of people saying how brave you are and what's a step forward. And how is this still existing in the year of 2021? So these are what other athletes reaching out to you. Yeah. Really? Yeah. Who are obviously not out.

Yeah. So I help mentor a lot of closeted athletes and a lot of Olympians. A lot of football players that aren't out and don't want to be out. You know, my journey, I'm grateful and so happy I did what I did. But not everyone wants to do Josh Cavalry's journey. They're happy to go around their life and keep it separate to the everyday life. Yes. They're happy to come out next year or in 10 years' time or they just don't want to come out.

But to have that safe space with me with strangers I don't even know is incredible because I couldn't do that. Yes. So you're driving from the club thinking you're not going to have a job. You won't be able to play the sport that you've been playing your entire life. But then very quickly, you then become really an activist. You were forced into becoming an activist. Or should I say you accepted that. You accepted the responsibility of it.

Where was the, what was the moment that you went from thinking, I won't have a job to, I now have a responsibility? What was that moment? Was it a particular message? Was it the volume of messages? What was it? I think it was the volume of messages and seeing that people need your help. You are their lifeline.

I think when I realized that people are using me as their lifeline to like breathe in the next day and to want to live another day and want to live another week, that's when I knew I have a responsibility now. I didn't go into this thinking that I would be an advocate in this space and to see the movement that this had across the world of an international level and see the people this reached in countries that I've never heard of before

and them reaching out for support is not when I knew. I have a responsibility now. You know, there's aspiration, there's inspiration. This whole idea around aspiration is that you want to achieve what someone else has achieved. But inspiration is someone has basically said, let me show you the way. Let me show you that you can do this. And most people who inspire end up taking a lot of arrows themselves. I would imagine you've taken quite a few. I think what people forget is that I was 21. I am not the expert in all the solutions and all the answers and all what they need.

I feel like getting put into this limelight and getting this spotlight on you, everyone thought that I was the solution and had all the answers. to it and I was still, till this day, at 25, I'm still working it out, what is right, what decisions are right for me, what decisions are wrong for me. And that's the process of me growing up into an older person and I feel like that's something I had to miss out on because I had to worry about what people asking me and helping people and saying that they need my help desperately and urgently. And it just breaks my heart when I hear people from countries where they can't be themselves and they will get executed for being who they are saying for me and begging for me

to help them when I can't do anything from here. Yeah. So how do you then, I mean, how are you then continuing to play? Because obviously the team embraced you. The league, did you feel like the league then embraced you immediately? Yeah. I feel like we had a really open space and we ended up launching a pride round off my coming out and we introduced that into the league and every team

had a rainbow jersey numbers on their back. And that was a moment of celebration round of my coming out. And that created a historical event throughout Australian football. So that was signs that this is working, change that I never knew little Joshie could even play football and be gay. We've got an event for him now. Like that was the turning point to me saying, this is powerful. This is making a difference in society.

Okay. Now, it wasn't just this, though, right? because you had then other players begin to think, I actually can do this. I actually can come out. And I want to give you your next surprise, Josh. Take a look at this. Hey, Paul.

Hello to the team over on the We Need to Talk podcast and a very special warm hello to you, Mr. Josh Cavallo. Just a quick few words, basically, to say how thankful I am for you, You helped me before I came out whilst I was out, even now. You helped me every single day without you knowing, and not just me. You helped so many people all across the globe. And from my own personal experience, you helped me so much,

make me feel more comfortable within myself. So I massively appreciate that. I hope you're smashing it over at Peterborough Sports. I'm so jealous that you're in the UK, and now I've moved on. We could have played together. Who knows? But yeah, thank you so much. I hope the podcast goes well, and hopefully we can catch up soon.

All the best. A legend, right? Look at that. That's crazy. Isn't that beautiful? Yeah, it's a reminder that there is a light at the end of the tunnel. Absolutely. And I feel like in this space I've created so many internet friends that I haven't been able to see in person.

That's an example. Yes. So we have to, so this is Jake Daniels, right? And Jake was the first active openly gay player in the UK. Yes. As a result of me. Yes. Yes.

I'm so happy to see how that story's come alive. And this is the reason why I do what I do. And this is a very public version of Jake. But I have so many people, hundreds and hundreds of people that are in the same boat as Jake. So my goal is to make everyone. like Jake, like everyone like me, in their best version of what they would like to show. Yes, which shows the power of representation. You know, there's so many people who say, what's the point of representation?

This is it. And you think about going back to, you know, as interesting is this photo is going to stay with me. It really is. It almost gives me chills because what I think is that if he had you, Yeah. The childhood that you talked about that you missed, he wouldn't have missed that childhood, you know? And that's the part that that gives me chills and that shows you that another reason

why your work is so important. But can we talk about football and statistics right now, which are not the most positive? So when I look at some of these stats around football, first is there are, currently, there are only six openly gay football players in the world, only six. Zero in the Premier League. There are 549 players in the Premier League. So if we are just using statistics around how many. gay men there are on average, which is roughly 3.8%. It means that there should be a few, right?

But presumably there are, but do not want to say a word. For fear of, there's a litany of things, but I would imagine largely it is the backlash that the fans are going to serve up. So when you think about fans, this absolutely blows me away. is that the fans, so this is currently what the Guardian says, 8% of fans say they would not watch their team, would not watch their team if there was an openly gay player. 8%.

Then it goes on. 26% of LGBTQ plus people do not feel welcomed at live sporting events. And 29% of LGBTQ plus people do not feel welcome. watching live sports in a pub. This is the modern state. This is where we are today. So because you play, what has been your perception of the fan base?

What is your perception of, of, I wouldn't say of the fans, but really it is of the fans. And what's actually happening in the stadiums? I think we're struggling. I think in the society of today, especially in sport and the way we're heading in this world, it's certainly going to get worse and tougher. It's so sad to see the statistics on the representation of people just wanting to be themselves.

It's pretty sad that people will hide themselves just because they're a professional athlete. and this is a space where I can't give you the solution, but I can help be a building block and to make sure the next Jake Daniels to make sure the next person coming through is okay and can be loud and proud. But you believe that we are regressing, so things are getting worse.

And I mean, I think there's lots of arguments to suggest that's the case, but why do you believe that so? I see that a lot in the news about rights of LGBTQ individuals and community laws getting stripped. And especially in the US, people encouraged to have hate sent and cheered almost to send hate to people of the LGBTQ plus community. especially like just me in having a coffee or taking a photo putting it online people will hate the way I look the way I do just because I'm a professional footballer and I don't fit the criteria but I'm still paving away for others people don't agree with that so you have you personally felt an increase of negative commentary yeah you think about this you know that shows right there you're

Right, that it's a step backwards. It's one of those where today it feels like we are in this incredibly divisive environment where it's very tribal and people feel like they need to pick sides. And a lot of it is being selected out of ignorance and out of fear. And so it sounds like what you're saying is from your perspective is you feel like the anti-movement is growing faster than the pro movement. So is that one of the reasons why so many of the players that you talk to don't want to come out now?

Absolutely. I feel like I wish I could paint a picture where we're going to have so many players existing in the next 10 years. But I can't see that from what I've been getting, from the feedback I've been getting, if anything, everyone's getting a little bit more uptight and rather keep their privacy and not expect. themselves in that space.

And it does break my heart because I got so much joy from unleashing who I was as a person and to know that people don't have the same opportunity as me to do that because of what others think of them is really sad. So I'm curious with the athletes and of course without naming any names is are there other reasons or what are all of the reasons that they're giving for not wanting to come out, especially given how liberating this has been for you? I think because people look at that as a side of weakness. For me, if someone says something about who I am as a person and my sexuality,

I've got a tough skin in this last four years. Is it acceptable? Absolutely not. To say homophobic abuse my way, absolutely not. But I have gone through so much in the last four years that anything thrown my way, I can bounce off it and turn into a positive. I've had physical roars as well where I have felt quite threatened and quite unsafe. and that's stuff that you don't expect by coming out and literally telling people through a video of social media who you are as a person.

Wow. So you've been physically attacked? Yeah. Yeah. Are you open to unpacking what happened? Yeah. It was the first time where I thought my life was in danger. For me, hate online does get to you and it does take a mental toll on yourself.

But seeing something in person and having. an abuse and something happening so close and you're on your own and you're isolated, that was very confronting for me. That was, it's real. What it's happening now is like quite scary. And it was me just at a petrol station filling up my car and it was someone approaching me from behind trying to like hit me. So it was really hard to like see and they said stuff I probably can't say on a podcast. They're being very abusive and homophobic. But that was the first time where I was like, this world is scary. Wow.

This world is not safe for people like me. When that, when something like that happens, I mean, obviously you have to defend yourself, but then immediately thereafter are you thinking, I need to shield myself? Yeah, I need to go back into that safe space of not disclosing, not talking. Absolutely. And I think when I opened up to my family about it, they were. scared for my safety and they love what I do and what I stand for, but to know that my safety in person is at risk, that was quite concerning for them. A moment for me where I was like, maybe

should I have not come out because it's affecting my everyday life now. So what do you do? From that moment, because I would imagine many people would say, all right, that's it. I'm not talking anymore. I'm not going to advocate at all anymore. But what did you do? I don't care. I don't care what people think about me, Paul. I really, if you have an issue with what I do, you have your own personal things to worry about.

Yes, it did scare me. It did make me take a backward step in some elements, but after reflecting and speaking to my network and my team around me and they really gave me a hug and supported me during this process and time, but to think that my announcement has now turned to stuff like that is pretty confronting.

Can we look at another moment to celebrate then? Because I like a good celebration. All right, I have another one for you. All right, I want you to take a look at this. All right. I want you to tell me what this is, what this photo is, and how you were feeling in this moment. You ready?

What's going on there? Describe that, describe that. That is insane because that was the attitude, gay, magazine is the epitome of as well as gay times to be on the cover of that and to have representation where I can do a photo shoot and be out and unapologetically myself and to be that person that I didn't see when I was growing up loud and proud and these are the moments for me where it's okay to be you and this is powerful and this is life changing across not only in Australian football, but across the world globally.

Yes. Yes. There you go. There you go. I'm not sure about the shoes now. But yeah. Let me see. Let me check out the shoes.

Let me see. Yeah, I see what you're saying. I don't know. It's not bad. It's not bad. It's not bad. It's not bad. Oh my gosh.

But it was a moment for me where these stuff and having this publicity and having achievements like this is fantastic. But I get more out of speaking to a local or speaking. to someone a stranger and having that one-on-one conversation where they've opened up to me instead I've changed their life and I don't know who this person is. Yes. That for me is the lottery ticket. This is great, phenomenal, no worries, but for me, having day-to-day interactions with strangers

to know that I've made their life better and I don't even know these people personally is all I can wish for. If you're looking for easy ways to show care for our planet, have you ever thought about saving food that would otherwise go to waste? That's exactly what today's sponsor. Too Good to Go does. This is their surprise bag that I picked up earlier from a local store. Now, you might be wondering what's inside.

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have you noticed a difference in the reaction between the two countries? Or should I say between the two nations? Yes. I feel like Australian football is a bit more family-orientated in terms of in the UK, they're a lot more passionate and louder. And there's like you have fewer people compared to Australia, for example, but they'll be twice as loud. So I think adapting to hearing.

so much noise while you're playing is a change in mindset for me. Yes, we did have that in Australia as well. And kind of when you step on that field, you're Josh Cavallo, the footballer, you're zoned in. You don't know, it's all blurry. Everything else is all blurry. So you don't really see the people in the stands. But to feel the loud noises, to feel the energetic that comes from the UK crowds, there's just nothing that beats that compared to football in Australia. Yes. Now, have you felt the love and support? here in the UK. I have.

I truly have. Yeah. I think that a lot of people that follow me online or followed my journey are UK-based. And I find myself interacting with a lot more people in the space of they have similar stories and they're a fan. And it's really nice to see that this exists in the world of football. And we've been suppressed so much that now is my time to shine and show people that you can be yourself and happy. And it's obviously working if we've got fans, football fans in the

crowd being themselves and coming up to me and talking. I got involved with the football club two years ago and representation is the key, that was the key driver that I got involved. And I very quickly started a campaign to try to introduce people to football who historically have felt unsafe. And this is something that I didn't realize that there were many people who grew up feeling incredibly unsafe going to the football match, let alone being the player, you know what I mean, on the field. And so have there been times where you have felt unsafe on the pitch? Yeah.

Absolutely. It's a no-brainer. There was times in Australia where we had abuse in the game, and that was heartbreaking. And to see, it went all around the world internationally, to see that there was abuse homophobic in one of my games was quite heartbreaking because that's the reality of being the first out gay male professional footballer. These are the situations that I have to walk through to make it the next one a little bit easier. As far as you're comfortable, can you describe what happened with that abuse? Yeah, so I had a bit of a head knock and I was coming off the

field and I had to walk around the field to get back to the bench. And when I was walking around, there was chance, homophobic chance being yelled at me. And it kind of took off and a lot of people started with like five people and it kind of, it was a pack of a chance. And that really wiped me. And I think to see how much that affected me even though I was in the zone with my football, it really got to me. And that was. was a time where I was like, being public, this is not acceptable, but this is the road that I've chosen to go down. And these are the learning moments we have to go through in order to make it a safer place for others.

Yeah. So when you say it got to you, how did it get to you? Oh, I was just really sad, emotional. I feel like my mentality is very lioness. I'm a lone Wolf. So I've grown up very much all by myself, kept everything in. So that moment was being publicized very much and seeing that there's a group of people that don't like me and attacking me. It made it feel real again, just like other scenarios where I've been confronted in person. I feel like seeing the reaction of my teammates, seeing the reaction of my coach to see how they protected me and guided me in the situations, even the opposition. Really?

Yeah. Okay. So it was really nice to see that in a bad scenario, how progressive professional athletes, referees, coaches, staff are reactive to that. And I think our team was very aware that this stuff might happen. So they were very proactive in that case. But is it acceptable? Absolutely not.

Yeah. So even on this is a survey of over 200 LGBTQ plus football fans found that nearly 75, percent of them had experienced some form of homophobic abuse. Does that surprise you at all? And how does it make you feel knowing that this is the current state of football? Yeah, horrible. People think that you can announce who you are and be yourself and then you move on with your life. And that happened four years ago. Then we move on. It's not the case. I'm going through every day through my daily life right now and experience the same thing. It's almost like a repetitive thing of doomsday.

And it keeps happening over and over. And it's like to a point where you don't look at messages. You don't look at comments because all you're seeing is vomit emojis. All you're seeing is stuff that you makes you feel in a negative mindset and negative space. So this is the reality of being who I am today. And I feel like a lot of people feel it's a very glamorous life. Yes.

But it's actually not. It's actually a very hard place. And I'm having to prove myself and my existence every day on a daily basis. So why do you continue? I'm opposed to switching it all off. I've thought of that. Absolutely. I've thought of just stepping away, stepping away from social media and that's it.

Like I'm happy to just clock off. But it's the people I'm helping. It's the people that advocating and saying we have a space on this earth, no matter who you are, no matter what you do, no matter where you come from, and to not listen to the outside noise of people that don't even know you is why I'm here. And this is the job I've been given on this earth and this place to be the representation for people that don't feel like they fit into society. Yeah.

I felt the lion's a lot right there. Sorry, sorry. I was the lion. Sorry, sorry. I get like, no, no, I could see is that you know that you're, it's almost as if you realize that you're not even here to be a football player. That's secondary. You're here to be, you're here to be an activist.

That's primary. You know, football is the, is the medium in which you do your activism now. Absolutely. I feel like I wish it could be 50-50. And I wish I could say to you that Josh Cavallo, the footballer, I think in my experience, people think I've gotten to where I've got to because of my announcement, but little did they know I was a professional footballer for six, seven years before this happened.

For me, that's more important than kicking a bag of air around. It's the meaning of I'm going to sleep at night and putting my head on the pillow and knowing that I'm proud to be Joshua Carvalho. Yeah, yeah, that's it with no mask, no mask. You know, so when you are, you're obviously, you're mentoring people, are you then in current conversation with players in the, say, Premier League? who are not out yet, but they come to you for advice. Previously in these last four years I've spoken to someone, yes.

Wow, look at that. And I think what's incredible but also interesting is I think about your story and how you didn't trust. You couldn't trust anyone. But now you have someone who can trust you. Yeah, it's crazy because I wouldn't do that to someone. Do you know what I mean?

I wouldn't message and to see the trust that these people are putting on me and to see how comfortable I make them feel through my story, and I don't know these people personally. And to see that the power and the impact is happening is it's quite numbing and it's quite pinch me moment because it's like I built up all this facade of I have to be a particular person. If I want a successful career in football, this is who I need to be. This is the way I need to go. And that's not the case. And every person that I've helped in their journey, it's being positive in their personal life and the element. And it's like, allowed them to be that white dove and fly out of the cage.

Yes, yes. So then obviously protecting that person. But what is the topic of conversation? Is he, what is he seeking from you? It's more about creating a safe space. It's more about me acknowledging that I'm here and I hear you. And your journeys won't be the same as mine. It'll be different.

But you'll be thankful for any way that you want to take this shape. There's no wrong and right. If you don't feel comfortable in doing certain things, don't do it. Yes. I feel like it's a lot of listening for me. It's a lot of work that I take out of my day to understand these people and help these people. But to see that this society is screaming so much for help like that means that we've got such a long way to go in the space of football. And it might not even be a guy.

It could be a girl. It could be a day, them. It could be anything. And you know what I think, too, is what you just said is something I've been advocating for for almost this entire year. And that is holding space for others. It is, I believe it is the most compelling way to show that you love someone is to hold space for them and say, I'm going to take the full weight of your truth. And I'm not going to run away.

And I'm not going to judge you. And if we can do more of that with our friends, more of that with our family members, more of that. There's more of that with our lovers. We actually will not only create these safe spaces where they feel seen, but we ourselves will feel of more value. And I think that's what's happening with you and all the people who are reaching out

and you're holding space. So it truly is beautiful. Now there's someone else that I know you're holding space for. Go on, what's now? This is so funny. You're like, what's next? What's next? is so when you were 19, you reached out to someone.

Yes. Okay. So dating at 19, you reach out. You get denied. I get rejected. Let me tell you something. I don't get rejected a lot in that space. I got so hurt that this person rejected me in that space.

And I, yeah, I, in the most humbling way possible, I was like, I'm going to, you. get this bugger. Right. And to know that this person palms me and, like, thought I wasn't real, that was kind of an eye-opening experience for me where I was like, that's mad. Anyway, sorry. Yes. It's a man.

So on that note, I want you to tell me what's going on in this photo. Okay? You're ready? You tell me, what is happening? What are you feeling in this? Oh. What's happening? You know what's in my pocket?

I definitely need to know what's in my pocket. You know what so funny is I was going to say, I'm going to let you let you say, and they was going to say, what is it in your pocket right there? So this is when I proposed to Layton. That was a ring in the pocket. And if I knew it was looking like that, I would have hit it somewhere else. But for me, finding myself in a place where a club was so welcoming, it made so much sense for my proposal to be there.

This was the place where I felt safe. This was the place where I could be who I can. and who I want to be and bring my partner and bring my family and it's a safe space for them. So that's why you proposed there? Yeah. Ah. That's where I found myself. I didn't realize it.

I didn't realize it. So that was essentially the first place, public place that you felt safe. Yeah. So this is very symbolic. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Love it.

I'm in a football pitch and I'm kissing my fiancé. Yes. I never ever thought I would be holding a photo like this and be talking to anyone. about me being openly and proud of showing affection in public. Yes. What does Leighton mean to you? Oh my God. We're like Ying and Yang.

So he brings me down and he is so calm. And I think people see his exterior and he's a rugby boy. So he's quite strong and quite rough on the exterior. But he's like the biggest teddy bear who ever meet. and I love that about him because it's his soft nature. It's his way of showing affection to me. And for me, it was like, we have a different age of 10 years apart from each other. Okay.

And when we're together, it doesn't feel like that. And in those seconds right before you proposed, what was going through your mind? Oh, my God. Funny story, right? So I entered the stadium and I told Layton that we had a photo shoot and it was for the pride jersey that we had an upcoming pride event. Leighton has never done a photo shoot before, so he was very nervous and his nature is shy. Okay.

And he was very unsure of wanting to participate in the photo shoot. And that was the narrative I had to paint to get him to the stadium. Once we got to the stadium, I said, can you please give me a coffee, darling? Like, I need to do some stuff. Yes. He didn't like that. He didn't like that at all because he wanted to be and watch me do the photo shoot and then he can know what to do.

So he went away to get coffees and that was the time where I had to plant. I'm going to do it in this position. This is how I'm going to do it. The camera's going to be here. This is the queue. We're going to do. We had to organize that stuff. While I was down on one knee practicing in the stadium, there's gaps on the side.

Oh, don't say it. And I see Leighton walk past with two coffees in his hands. He had no idea. He didn't look. But I was on the ground like practicing and I was like, oh my God, my heart skipped the beat because I thought that he saw me. Anyway, he comes back and he's like sweating because he's like, what do I have to do now, this photo shoot and stuff?

So we played it really cool and we did like back-to-back photos and we did like things that you'd do for a jersey and I kind of took a couple of steps back and then started talking to him on a deeper and personal level of why he's so special to me. And then I got down on one knee and proposed to Layton and he just bursted in tears. He was shaking. He couldn't even stand up. He was like, he had to sit down on the floor and, like, I thought he was going to pass out. You know, isn't it something to be able to find your forever person?

It is. I always say that, you know, I'm not necessarily, I've shifted from being this advocate around marriage. Everything needs to be marriage, marriage, marriage, to just find your person. Just find the person that you want to do life with because life becomes so much richer. And fun. And fun. Right? It's so when you have your person, you know.

I know you probably don't want to give that to me, but can I take that from you? Yeah. Okay. And I want to. It's a special one, that was. I know, I know it is. I know it is. You can have it back at the end.

And then I have something that I want to show you. Okay. Take a look at. Hi, darling. I just wanted to send a quick message to let you know how incredibly proud I am of you and everything that you stand for. When I was asked to do this video, I instantly smiled and started thinking about all of the fun moments that we have together and all of the laughter in our house. And I realized that I do not tell you enough just how much I love and cherish you. On the flip side of that, I also started reflecting about a lot of the hardship that I watch you go through and the difficult things that you often don't talk about publicly.

And it's hard not to get emotional when I think about what you face daily, whether that's the stuff we see directed at you online, or just carrying that pressure of being one of few in the spotlight. You carry so much weight on your shoulders, and I think it's easy for the world to overlook the impact of your journey, but I see it. You continue to stand up and show up when it feels like the rest of the world is turning its back. And you're an incredible advocate for people out there who live in the world. silence or don't feel like they have their own voice. And I'm always going to be your biggest supporter and back you 100%. And I can't wait to continue watching you inspire others. I love you very much.

And happy birthday for tomorrow. He clocked it. Oh my God. Oh, my days. That is a lot for Leighton to do because he doesn't do that stuff often. So I know how much that, how hard that would. would have been for him to do a video like that. That is really probably one of the best things I've seen. I said you could see how reflective he was in that and how earnest he was in that. And what

struck me is exactly what you said that you do for others holding space. This is precisely what he does for you. Yeah. I feel like he, sees the everyday Josh of what has happened and what comes my way and I know social media at times there's certain things you want to paint

and there's certain things that you don't want to say but Leighton gets to see the raw Josh of reactions of things that come my way or he's my safe space where I can talk about things that really cut deep and hurt me. So Leighton now is with you here in the UK.

Okay. So in the UK, the environment, especially around family and children, changes, or should I say surrogacy? Because from what I understand is, Layton,

he'd like to have a few kids. Yes, he does. If I said yesterday, if we had kids, we would have a, yeah. Okay. So tell me, he would like how many,

and where do you stand on children? I want children definitely throughout my life but I am at such a prime age of still trying to live out and experience all of life that I'm not quite ready to be responsible for another human being. I feel like there is a space where we want two kids when I'm older. I want a girl, he wants a boy, but there is no reason. rush in my time to get a child.

I feel like that's some point in my life. I want to open that chapter for sure. I feel like that's something I want to pursue. But for me, it's difficult because we're at different points in life. Layton's 10 years on from me. He's ready for something like that. Whereas I'm still wanting to use my 20s and then maybe look at something like that in my 30s.

Okay. So that's a space where we kind of stand at the moment. And our dog has turned into our child. So you can see the roles that we take already. Yes. So it's already fitting. The dog is the precursor. That's right.

It's the precursor. Yes. How does your, how's your family received Leighton? They love him. So Leighton's like trained as an electrician was his first job. And my dad's like a car mechanic electrician. So they got on more than what I get on with my dad. So I was like, what is going on here?

But they clicked on from the first moment. And my family had been so incredibly welcoming to him. him. My brother, my mum, they absolutely adore him to the point where I feel like they're abandoning me. Really? They absolutely love him and I love that for Leighton, to be fair. It's difficult because Leighton has had such a difficult upbringing. He has worked really hard to get to where he is in life and everyone turned their back on Leighton and he is someone that is stronger than me. And I take off my hat to him because he has turned his life around 360 and he's someone I definitely look up to in that space.

So I don't say that. I actually haven't said that to him or said that ever, but that him for me is that person that I just knew that I want to do life with. Yeah, I could see it. And I think he'll appreciate hearing that from you in watching this. But he'll also appreciate it because I'm sure that you will tell him directly. Yeah, absolutely. There was an idea from the One Better Guide from our sponsor, Adobe Express,

It came from Jonathan Mildenhall. He says anyone who is creating should have a personal board of directors. Obviously, my wife Jill is on my board. She always tells me the truth, sometimes too much. So here's the test. I've made two logos for my football club,

Sutton United. Now, one of them is quite honestly terrible. So let's see if she tells me the truth. I'm about to send you something that's very important to me. What do you think about both of them? They're both very nice. but I think I like the black and yellow. This is the logo that would be blasted everywhere.

Why not the whimsical one? It doesn't scream football club to me. It screams maybe kids' football team. But... You think my first logo is a kid's logo. That was brutal. That's the beauty of Jonathan's idea. Not all feedback is equal,

but when it comes from people you trust, it makes every idea that one bit stronger. Click below to download Adobe Express and unlock the guide for free. Genuinely, I can't remember a time when the lead-up to the holidays hasn't been busier. I mean, I've got the school activities for the boys. They also have sports activities. Then there's the holiday shopping for not only the family but the wife. Then I have the podcast and filming a few TV shows. I mean, things are busy. I drink our sponsor Hewell throughout the year. But I got to say, I really appreciate their products the most in

December. It's one less thing to think about. Now, I saw, I sort of switch between the two. The Huell Black Edition ready to drink when I want to feel fuller. And then the Huell Light ready to drink when I need something a bit lighter. Black Edition has 35 grams of protein, 26 vitamins and minerals, and it's high in fiber. Similarly, light has 26 vitamins and minerals, 25 grams of protein, and it's only 190 calories. If you're new to Huell and want 10 pounds off your first purchase over 60 pounds. Use my code WNTT at huell.com slash WNTT. Off camera, you know what they're saying? They're saying that I don't eat. This is the only thing that I consume. And without this, I would not be able to do this podcast. So Huell, truly, thank you.

If you've made it this far, I know you're loving the conversation. So please do me one small favor. Hit that bell icon, join our community. Thank you. All right, so there's another area that I love to get into with you is that we've been talking about it, but let's go a little bit deeper on it, is that you feel like we're regressing with regard to LGBTQ plus rights. So if we are regressing, what must we be doing now? So what must I be doing? What must those who are watching this be doing? what should we be doing to stop that backslide that we're on? I think it's the approach of being welcoming and finding that it's a safe space.

And it's not the matter or the fact of blasting that this is a welcoming space for LGBTQ plus community. But in the space of understanding that it's okay to be you. And I feel like a lot of role models in a similar position to me in could be a drag queen. It could be a CEO to take that next step. And that is the most influential way that we are going to turn heads to do what I did in their own working space. Okay. Okay. So what I hear you saying is that it's the supporting those in our communities who come out, right?

Because that visibility, that becomes representation. And then that inspires others. So it's creating that safe space around them. Absolutely. And I think it's a little like a lot when I do talks to companies or public visits for companies and I'll go and have a speech and to see like a little gesture of a lanyard or to see a little badge or to see a little love heart that's a rainbow on the door. It already creates that sense that's it's obnoxious to like most people but people in that community see that. People in that community said this is a safe place for me. They welcome people like me. And it's so little of detail, but seeing that this is a safe space does and moves mountains for people. Okay.

Okay. That's very good for me to know. So what about at the sporting events, you know, we talked about some of this data around how uncomfortable so many people in the community feel in pubs, you know, sporting events at pubs or at the pitch, you know, at these sporting events. what should we be doing? I feel like people feel it's very difficult to be at a pub or to be in a place that's really masculine and can be quite toxic. The toxicity can be quite high in those spaces, especially around football, that people feel like they're not safe to wear a rainbow jersey, to not safe, to wear a young

lanyard to not do anything that people frown upon, look upon in their lives. in jeopardy or they're at threat of being endangered. It's hard because I wish I could walk out of here and say that tomorrow everyone's going to be amazing and everyone can come to the stadium and be welcomed and, but it's just not like that. We're in a world today where people are still frowned upon and looked at in a negative way just to being who they are or dressing the way they are. And you can say this about straight people that dress quite feminine as well.

You would ask them and I can guarantee you they say they get looks and they get geography things pointed to them that they look a certain way or they must be in the LGBTQ community because they dress like that. Oh yeah, I will say, do you know what the number one comment is about me being on TV? Is number one is, oh, there's Paul, he must be gay. That's right. Yeah. And how sad is that?

But you know what's so interesting is that at first I thought, okay, people are trying to be offensive to me by saying this. But then I thought, this doesn't offend me. You know what I mean? And so I think that it's one of those where I find to be so interesting for me in particular because I realize that I think the comments come, at least from me, because of how I express myself in my dress. I think if what you're doing is you are attempting to offend me by labeling me, by labeling my sexuality, how sad is that? you're trying to offend me by talking about sexuality like it's ridiculous but but but but but i i then think my god if this is if this is the commentary i get i can't imagine what it's like to walk in your shoes

it's it's it's it's tough it's the fact that people question a straight person and why why are we even questioning that like what has that got to do with a television show. What has that got to do with representation for what you stand for? Because you have style, you're put in a box and you look that differently. It's so sad to see that this is a place and time where people question that. And it's, I wish I had an environment where I came out and this, almost this story was forgotten because it's that regular.

Right. Right. That for me is a perfect move because I don't feel like I dress quite feminine. But what if I did? What if I wanted to walk around with things or have a handbag or whatever I wanted to do? I still think, oh, what are people thinking on me? What are people perceiving me of? And this is me four years on to the journey I've had.

So imagine that for someone that hasn't come out. Imagine that for people that are straight and get asked questions that about their sexuality, that they've never even crossed their mind before just because they have a bit of style. So it's just disappointing to see that this society, it's in today's day, age that this is a topic that we have to even talk about. Exactly. Exactly. And from your perspective, and I feel it unfortunately as well as is that we are regressing.

You know, it's this backslide and it's every marginalized community now is being pushed into this corner. And unfortunately, a lot of, I think is, a lot of this is being done very methodically to create tension and unnecessary noise to keep us away, to keep our eyes away from other things, you know, and we're taking the bait, you know, and we're more divisive than now than ever before. I think that's what scares me as well, is painting a spotlight on hatred or telling my experience of what happened to me is quite damaging, not for me, but damaging for people watching. Because that's going to push them backwards.

that's like when I was in the car and I was hearing these silly comments about two guys holding hands that pushed me back hearing these experiences that I've gone through will push people watching and viewers back. So it's a space where we need to work on, not only us, but as a society and to work through that it's okay to be who you are. And I just don't understand why people still to this day and age having to explain why they should be existing? Mic drop.

Mic drop. Yeah, mic drop. Yeah. Why do we need to explain why we exist? Yeah, to anyone. You know, and not just explain it, but then justify it. That's right. I've been trying to justify for the last four years of why I did what I did of coming out.

Why am I even paying attention to that? Why am I like paying and telling people and trying to explain why? I should have a place on this earth. Yes. It's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, not even a conversation we should, not even a non-negotiable of a conversation we should be having. Right, right.

Can I, one, one last last is, uh, we didn't talk about, uh, Qatar. We didn't talk about World Cup, but we, we, we talked about areas and places, right? Is, as fans. of football, what should we be doing for moments like that, where there is clearly a specific ideology that is against the queer community, but yet we support football. So from what I recall is that there was the One Love Armband. And the One Love Armband was essentially a to support all love, but yellow cards were handed out for anyone wearing the armband.

So these were players wanting to support. So for fans wanting to support, I mean, what do we do as fans? Yeah, well, flags are getting taken off, people, people getting thrown out of the stadium because they brought an LGBTQ plus flag. It's disturbing because it's like these people that have, issues with it. You look on your left or right shoulder and I guarantee you someone close to who's going through that journey.

And you're not only hurting people that you take this across, but you can be hurting your brother. You can be hurting your sister, your uncle, whoever it may be. It's just the fact that people don't realize of what they say has consequences for the people around them. Okay. And I feel like in the space of what we can do to improve it is that this shouldn't even be happening.

countries like Qatar shouldn't even be hosting a tournament and this is where we need to solidify and come together and say this is not on almost like protesting to say we're backing the LGBTQ community you cannot host a country can't host that discriminates between this sort of community and it's not accepting to be who you are in this country right off should not period be able to host a world cup especially something that people train for it's the epitome of it's the Olympics or football. You work so hard in your career to be able to represent your country on a world stage. And you have to worry about being in a country in a region that you're not allowed to be yourself. And I can guarantee there were people at that World Cup that were in the community. Okay. And when the team, because there were teams obviously that

backed down. So when when the teams were backing down, how did how did that make you feel? Excellent. That was fantastic because it felt like I was being heard. It felt like people were being respected. And it's not right. It's like saying you look a certain way so you can't belong in a country to host a World Cup. What do you mean? Like, I don't tell you that you can't have a cup of coffee when you wake up.

Like, it's just, it's honestly, it's a non-negotiable in a question that shouldn't even be discussed. And the fact that we continued and hosted in this country and people turned their heads and acted like this wasn't an issue is so concerning for me. And this was right in the prime of when I've just come out. Yes. Yes. Yes.

So we've done so much work as a world together internationally to give me a hug and to push me up and help others in need. And then we go and host a World Cup in a country that doesn't accept people like me. This is to your point of the regression, you know, into the backslide. I mean, these are all facts. It's all good to say, oh, Josh, be yourself, be yourself. When it comes to moments like this, people hide. And these are the times where I needed those people that said, congratulations, Josh, we love you for who you are, to stand up and be like,

that's not okay. We can't have tournaments in countries like this. We can't do that. It's all amazing when people is going fantastic and they're saying, pat you on the back for that. Well done for coming out. But it's those times where you need them. And that's when I felt the world was silent.

That's fair. That's powerful too. you know and for that to have happened i was one year later so just went through the whole news outlet of like everyone's fresh about it this is in everyone's mind and then we had this discussion and it was just like put that to the side this whole progress of like steps forward and such a significant celebration of joshua cavali the only first gay football and top flight football coming out was silenced and that's when i saw Okay, that person that actually said, well done, didn't mean it because when it counts, they're not there.

Yeah. Okay. Okay. You can see that this is your passion. So when you hang up the boots... This is what I was born to do, baby. I can see it. I can see it.

So what is your message to the entire queer community right now? Be unapologetically yourself. Do not apologize. for looking a certain way, for acting a certain way, for stepping forward on this earth and going through every life of what you exist on this planet. I feel like people can get so worried about what people think of them and end of neglecting their own body. Be unapologetically you and you don't have to worry about what anyone thinks about you in

this life. Another mic drop. Bang! Another mic drop. All right. So then I'm down to the final question. This is the one that everyone gets. Can't wait to get your answer.

is if you think back throughout your life, all of the incredible conversations you've had, which one stands out as the most memorable and who is it with? I think coming out to my parents, I feel like I wish I had that time again to do it face to face. I feel like I deserved a little bit more bravery from myself to do that. And I feel like if I had my time again,

I would have loved to sit them down and have a chat like this. and just believe that there is a place for Josh in this world. Because if I looked back then and see what he's done now is absolutely breathtaking. So I wish I was a little bit more braver. Yes, we could say I announced it to the world. But when it came to my family and stuff like that, I felt like I didn't have a place in that family. So if I had to go back, my one message would be just to be that unapologetically you,

like I told the community and I tell everyone that wants to look up to me and pave that way as well, be unapologetically yourself. All right, I love it. You know, I will say this with no, and please don't think I'm exaggerating at all, is that I talk to many people, but it is infrequent that I'm able to talk to real-life heroes.

And I truly believe you deserve a space in the hero category. Absolutely. Oh, that's crazy. you. That's really touching. Thank you. You do. You do. And I can't fathom the weight that you carry each day. And when I saw that message from Leighton, I thought, Layton knows the weight that you, that you take, right? And as someone who is on the ownership side of football, I believe I understand some of the difficulties that you face just there alone. Notwithstanding what you face on social, notwithstanding what you face when you

walk down the street, notwithstanding these thoughts of physical threats. And the fact that you continue to show up every day for, you know where I'm going, the fact that you continue to show up every day for this one right here to me is the reason why I think that you are a hero. So I want you to continue doing what you do, you will always have my support. And I believe you'll have, you continue to have the support of so many of us who will continue to hold space for you. Okay, so thank you. Thank you, Paul. That's honestly one of the nicest things I've heard. So thank you so much. It means a lot because, as you said, I think Layton's that person that sees the good, the bad, the ugly. So it's really nice to be able to open up in a conversation where we can help the public,

but also I'm healing from this. So thank you. Yeah, super. Super, excellent, excellent work. Or I should say Joshy. There's so much stress that I have in my day today to then have to hide my identity. And hearing Josh talk about the script that he had to create, stories he had to create, not feeling safe even with his friends, he mentioned.

I can't imagine how isolating that feels. and to deal with that isolation on top of the trials and tribulations of life is just extremely difficult. When someone is able to come out like Josh, there should be a celebration and a support of that individual. That visibility becomes representation. And once you have representation, many others will be able to see themselves through that individual. And then you have more people who are able to speak their truth. So that to me is a great lesson. It could be as simple as follow Josh and you like his post.

It could be in the sharing of this conversation. There are many things that we can do, but I'm taking away this understanding of celebrating those who are out and doing everything we can to hold space for them. Hey, honey, it's mom. Did you know if we switch to Verizon we can get four phones for $0 plus four lines for $20? plus four lines for $25 a line. Call me back. Me again. That's just $100 a month for four lines on Unlimited Welcome.

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