We Need To Talk with Paul C. Brunson - Little Mix's Perrie Edwards: I’ve Never Spoken About THIS Before! And Why I Hated My Public Breakup

Episode Date: August 19, 2025

Little Mix star Perrie Edwards opens up about her journey from a shy girl in South Shields to global superstardom, and for the first time, the private battles she fought along the way. From life-threatening childhood illness and years of surgery, to panic attacks so severe she couldn’t leave the house, Perrie reveals the moments that nearly broke her, and the resilience that kept her going. For the first time, Perrie shares the truth about her most painful heartbreaks, the public breakup that left her traumatised, and how toxic relationships once shaped her idea of love. She speaks candidly about meeting her fiancé Alex Oxlade-Chamberlain, finding a safe and supportive relationship, and becoming a mother after experiencing a devastating miscarriage at 24 weeks. From X Factor auditions and being underestimated as a girl band, to selling millions of records and learning to redefine success on her own terms, Perrie reflects on fame, grief, motherhood, and the courage it takes to protect your peace in the public eye. Now, with her debut solo album on the horizon, she’s learning to create without pressure, embrace vulnerability, and find joy again in the music. Perrie shares: ◽ How a childhood illness shaped her love of singing ◽ The panic disorder that made her afraid to leave home ◽ Why toxic relationships once felt “normal” ◽ The grief of miscarriage and losing a baby at 24 weeks ◽ How Alex helped her find safety and love again ◽ What fame taught her about resilience and self-worth ◽ Why she’s no longer chasing chart positions with her music Perrie Edwards, We Need to Talk. Content warning: This episode contains discussion of miscarriage and baby loss. We’ve included links to support charities below: Tommy’s: https://g2ul0.app.link/yiLgVePdnVb Sands: https://g2ul0.app.link/1c7K7WVdnVb 'If He Wanted To He Would' is out this Friday 22nd August! Follow me here: https://www.instagram.com/needtotalk https://www.tiktok.com/@weneedtotalkpod  (00:00) Intro (02:08) Perrie's Experience of Moving Around a Lot as a Child (05:51) Perrie's Health Issues as a Child (13:56) Perrie's Lack of Smell (19:49) How Did Perrie's Love of Singing Develop? (26:03) How Perrie Got Onto X-Factor (32:52) Tinder Ad (34:03) Love Better Tour Ad (35:08) Perrie's Time in Little Mix and Their Dynamic When They Were Making/Touring Their Music (40:27) Why Perrie Thinks Little Mix Remain the Underdog of Girl Groups (43:21) How Perrie Has Dealt With Instability in Her Life (46:49) Perrie's Relationship With Zayn Malik (56:34) How Perrie Met Her Husband Alex (01:00:43) The Difference in Dynamic Between Perrie's Relationship With Zayn and With Alex (01:07:19) How Would Perrie Describe Her Relationship With Alex? (01:09:37) How Has Having Her Son Changed Perrie? (01:11:58) Pregnancy Speculation in the Media (01:14:09) Perrie's Experience of Pregnancy and Miscarriage (01:20:53) How Alex Dealt With the Miscarriages (01:24:20) Perrie's Struggle With Panic Attacks Since Little Mix (01:30:04) Perrie's Experience of Agoraphobia (01:33:11) Perrie's New Album (01:36:25) Most Memorable Conversation (01:40:25) Paul's Takeaways Sponsored by: Tinder: https://tinder.com/en-GB Get Your Tickets to the Love Better Tour: https://bit.ly/lovebetter-YT Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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Because I've never spoke about it before. I remember sneaking out X Factor to say one direction. It's a relationship with saying it was your first true love. We were engaged to be married. But when I looked back now, it was a little bit toxic. Why do you think that is? How did you get through that heartbreak? The girls.

In terms of how successful the group was, numbers don't lie. It was really hard to have relationships because we were never home. And I remember it came out in the press that I was singing Alex. And my dad, he was just fuming my brother. brother was fuming. You've just dated a boy band member who's completely shattered your soul and now you're going for a footballer

and I was like, I think I love him. Alex and I have been through a lot. I remember every night before ashore I kept bleeding. I just knew something was wrong. Alex just put his hand on my leg and he went, oh no. We lost the baby at like 24 weeks. In a world that is so cruel,

we need more paris. Before my success was kind of deterrent. determined by how I would chart. And now I'm in a place with my album that if one person loves it, I'm happy. I'm done. So when are we getting new music? All right. Before we begin, I want to say from the bottom of my heart, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you.

Why? Because we can't believe how far we've come with this podcast. But in particular, we've come this far because of you. Your support means everything. Whether it's a comment, whether it's a DM, whether I get stopped in the street, which I do and I appreciate, I just want to say how much we appreciate. And if you have not yet subscribed, I want you to click the subscribe button or hit that bell icon. What it allows us to do is bringing you more and more of these incredible conversations.

And that being said, let's get into it. Perry Edwards, we need to talk. All right. So you're ready? I'm ready. Okay. I know you're ready. I can see that you're ready. I'm so ready. I'm so ready. I'm such a fan of yours, though, so I'm so ready. I love it. I appreciate it.

And can I say too is I love how you show up. Oh, that's nice. And truly, and when you said yes to this, I was super excited. Yeah, I know me too. And I can't wait. I know, I love to talk. So it's perfect to me. And I love to listen.

We need to talk. Yeah. I could talk under water. Oh, well, can we start talking then? Yes, let's do it. About growing up. And what I didn't realize is that you moved. around quite a bit

when you were younger. Yeah. I mean, we make fun of it now. Like me and my brother make fun at my mom and she's like, it's not funny. I'm like, no, but it's great. Like, it was an adventure. But I think from the early age, I think I was about six months

when my dad left. And my mom was like a single mom, grown up. She had two kids. I think she struggled a lot. But we just moved here there everywhere. Like, basically in South Shields, there's like loads of areas. And we lived in all of them.

So we moved to Weymouth. I remember going to school for a while. We lived there for like a year or two. Moved back to South Shields. My mom's partner at the time, my stepdad at the time, was a Kiwi. He was from New Zealand. So we ended up moving to New Zealand. Okay.

That's how you got to New Zealand? Yeah. Yeah. And how was that experience for you? The best experience of my entire life. Really? It was like everything you could imagine. Imagine it being. It was that. It was beautiful. It was like serene. It was peaceful. The people were incredible. Our lifestyles, like mine and my brother's lifestyle completely changed because we'd never been used to something like that. And I think we had school. We made friends. We were out in about all the time. But my mom, she just felt really lonely. So she didn't work out there. So she got into bacon, gained a lot of work. Because all she did was big. And she was like, I don't know if I can be away from my family.

that my granddad got really sick so I just remember coming home one day and my mom sat me and my brother down and she was like, we're moving back to England and me and Johnny were like, please no, we love it here. And she was like, I know but granddad's poorly and I can't bear being away.

Like, I'd never forgive myself if anything happened and I'm not there. And when you're a kid, you're like, you're ruining my life. Like, this is so unfair. And my brother was so, like, popular. And like, because he was British. It was just like, well,

He was cool. Yeah, he was so cool. He was like pretty emo back then. He used to wear a top hat and eyeliner. Like, he was the sickest dude. He still is. And I just remember being heartbroken thinking, please, can we just stop moving around?

Like, I've had enough. We're at the other side of the world. And then we went back. Now that I'm an adult, I see it completely different. When I was a kid, I used to think, oh, my mom's dragging me back to England. I don't want to go back to England.

I've got a life here now, and I've got best friends. I've got crushers at school. and like it was a whole lifestyle. And then it was just gone. And then we moved back. We had to live with my nana for a while in her little bungalow because we had nowhere to live for a while. And then we eventually found our house in White Lays, which is where I basically grew up from 12.

Wow. So all of that that you just described happened before you were 12? Yes. That's a lot. When you reflect back, how do you think that entire period shaped who you've become today? Well, one, it made me good. go to meet new people, I think.

But I think it's because I had to. Yes. But like all of this was going on, not only was my mom a single mom and were we moving around so much, but I was really badly ill as a child as well. Which I've spoke about a little bit in the past, but not like in massive detail.

Okay. Can we talk about it? Yeah, of course. I spoke about it recently. I did a show with Alison Hammond. Yes. And she gets right. She is the nation's sweetheart.

She's a gorgie hun. Love her. She just has me. cackling all day. But we did like, we went back to South Shields and I told her a bit about like hospital and grown up, but I spent a lot of time in hospital. But basically when I was born, I had something wrong with my esophagus. And that's obviously your food tube. So where food goes down, every time my mom would feed me milk or whatever, I would just project her, I'll vomit the milk back out. And my mom was like, something's obviously not right. This isn't normal. So she took me

doctors, nobody could find anything wrong with me. They were like, maybe she's just a sicky baby. It's the way she is. My mom's thinking, no, this is off, but okay, so I guess I'll just monitor it. I got to about, I don't, honestly can't remember. I was probably seven when they discovered there was actually something seriously wrong. But I was severely undernourished. I couldn't eat a thing.

Couldn't keep food down. My mom had to blend my food for years. Like Sunday dinners were in the blender. Goodness. soup, mash, all that kind of thing. And she went to doctor after doctor after doctor. And I'll never forget it. We went to see this specialist, right,

and went in, did the blood tests. They tried to put a camera down my throat to see. First time that even tried. And this is, yeah. Couldn't get it in. And they were like, right. The camera, bearing in mind, it's tiny. It's a little wire with a camera at the end that goes down.

And they can see it all on the screen. They couldn't even get that down my esophagus. Because, you know, so I was researching this. So this is asafal. All right, you're going to have to pronounce it for me. Is it esophageal atresia? I think so, yeah. Yeah, you're probably better to say it than I am.

And I was looking at diagrams of this. And it's incredible because to your point is that your esophagus next to your stomach. Yeah. But your esophagus did not connect. It basically, when I was a baby, it's like your windpipe, I think, and your esophagus are like one. When you're born, they kind of separate. it and usually it's quite common in boys it's not really seen in girls

so it wasn't 32 years ago when I was born so when it kind of separated it came with like a saddle on its back almost and it had like a curve in it and it was just like something was wrong but they could never find it and then finally they found it and I remember someone saying to me

Darling are you hungry do you want to eat and I said I'm starving I really want to eat I don't want to eat food out of a blender anymore. I want to eat food. So they sent me to a head. She was incredible Miss Lawson, Dr. Anne Lawson, my absolute queen, and she

basically saved me, but I was in hospital every other week. Look at that. For operations, yeah. Look at that. It shows you the importance of asking the right questions. It was so bad. Like, the doctors were like, if you didn't persevere with your daughter, this would have been it. Like, I had

nothing left to give. I was just skin and born. like it was wild. And then that is then resolved. Yes. You're able to get nutrition. So you probably feel alive. Yeah, almost. It got worse before it got better

because then the acid from my stomach came up and burnt a hole in my esophagus and then that was a whole new ballgame. But I feel like luckily I was in the perfect hands. The care was incredible. I was there like every other week for an operation. So I was used to being put to sleep. I used to like sing to them.

They'd be like, sing us a song, you know, instead of counting down from 10, like, Me, turn on stairs in the v. Off I went. Really? Loved it.

Was that the first time that you remember singing? Yeah, I've sung forever. I've sung forever. It's just something I've done but both my parents are singers.

Okay. So I thought that was normal. I thought everyone just sung until I heard people who were torn deaf and I was like, well, that's not right.

And it really threw me. I'm fascinated by that. Yeah. All right. So you would sing yourself to sleep basically. Yeah, I sung myself to sleep every night. In and out of the hospital. Yeah.

Right. And I did not know this about you. I would imagine this is also impacting how your character shapes. Yes. And now when you reflect back, how do you think those moments have impacted who we see today? I think, you know, I have therapy every Friday. Absolutely loved my therapy. And we got to the point in one of the sessions and I kept seeing like sometimes, you know, sometimes. when I'm feeling anxious and I'm in a car and I'm in traffic or I'm in certain situations, I start to feel a bit trapped. And we kind of discovered that my whole upbringing and my whole childhood, I was in a body that

wasn't working. And that must have felt like it was almost a little bit claustrophobic being in a body that wasn't doing the right functions. But I couldn't escape it and I couldn't help it. So I think part of it kind of comes from that. part of maybe the uncertainty and the unsteadiness comes from moving around so much. So I think like so much of my upbringing has a part to play in one, why I'm so robust, but also why I probably have a few little issues going on, shall I mean.

But isn't it so incredible to be able to do that reflection? Yes. So now that you can pinpoint those things, does that make you feel now? It made me feel kind of like, oh, okay, I never thought of it like that. I never thought of like, because when you're a child, you just crack on with it, don't you? You don't really think about things. I wasn't sat in the hospital being like, poor me. I was just like, oh, I'm in hospital.

Okay, this is my life. I just was what, it was the cards I was dealt. So I think as a kid, you just crack on with it. But now that I'm an adult, now I've got a child as well, I can't imagine being in the shoes that my mom had to walk in for all those years, being a single mother trying to keep us afloat while sort of. will spend in every other day in hospital. And I was a clingy child as well.

Like there was never a time where my mom wasn't sat in that chair in the hospital because I would just be terrified without her. So I'm thinking, how did she do it? Yeah. And now because you're a mother, right, I'm a father. And the majority of my day is spent thinking about my children. Absolutely. You know, so you think when they are, I always say that as a parent,

tell me if you feel this way, is that the limit of my happiness is my child's happiness. Yeah, I agree. And so if my child is sad, I'm inevitably sad. I echo their emotion. Yeah. So I can't imagine having a child who is in and out of the hospital and you feel like there's nothing you can do. You know, you think about, you know, how incredible your mother was. Yeah. It's just next level. She's such a badass. Yeah. She's the best. Yeah. She really is. You're blessed to have her. No, I know. I couldn't do life without my mom. Like, I'm attached to the woman's hip. She's here somewhere. She's with me all of the time. Is she literally here? Yeah, she's literally here. She's like here in the studio. Yeah, you know when people say it takes a village. It doesn't. It takes Debs. Like for me, it takes Debs. Debs does everything. She's the handyman around the house. She helps me with Axel. Like, she's my queen of life. Wow. Yeah.

Wow, look at that. She's epic. Look at it. She is. I'm going to have to meet her after this. She's the best ever. So when did you find out about the, is it congenital onsomnia of not being able to smell? That came later in my life. Look at that. You're gifted.

I was like, ooh, I'm special. There was two occasions, which is straight. I don't know how I got my whole life. I was in secondary school, probably about 13 years or maybe. But I don't know how I got through my life. not known that I couldn't smell until then. But there was two occasions. One, I remember being in school and, like, you know,

there's like misty sprays that all the girlies were into. And it was like a thing and you'd wear like your Victoria Secret Mist or your blue jeans or red jeans or whatever. It was the thing the girlies didn't. I remember the girls like spraying it. Be like, oh my gosh, now I'll smell this one and I'll be like, hmm. Thinking, I really don't get it.

Like, I don't understand what you're doing? And they're like, well, don't you think that one smells nicer than that one? and I'm like, I guess, like, I don't know. Interesting. Weird. Our kitchen sat on fire once and there was like smoke and I couldn't smell it until I started coughing. And then I was like, oh, hang on, something's not right. But I couldn't smell any burn and couldn't smell like the burnt toast or whatever it was.

Just went straight over my head. And another thing, actually, when I was a kid, my brother would be like, oh, mom's making baking sandwiches. And I'd be like, how do you do that? Like he would just know we'd be upstairs and he'd be like, oh, mom's making baking sandwiches. stairs and he'd be like, Mom's meeting a roast dinner. And I think, but how,

and he's like, I can smell it from up here. And I'm like, smell what? Wow. So then I thought, something's not right. So I went to the doctors. And how old were you? I think I was about 13.

I must have been, because I was secondary school. Okay. See, I was 13 and then we went to the hospital again. Off I go. I'm like, the regular. And I was like, I don't think I can smell.

And they run tests and it's really strange because I can taste everything. but normally they're connected. So I think there's like a disconnect between my brain and my sense of smell or something. But I had surgery. Didn't work and they were like, we'll probably have to do the surgery again.

So I think they lays had like loads of stuff away in my like nasal passage way. Okay. And it was a horrible surgery and the recovery was horrendous. So when they suggested a second one, I thought, you know what, and I'm good. I'd rather not smell anyway. And I've never had it, so I don't know what I'm missing.

So you cannot smell to this day? Nope. So I can't smell. in work. Oh my good, really? Yeah. So forgive it. When you walked into this room, you couldn't smell this.

There's some beautiful scented panes. Oh, no, I'm so sorry. It's wasted on me. It really is. I can't smell a thing. Not a thing. Okay, so help me understand this. Yeah.

I mean, because I can see there could be some advantages to this. Yes. Mm-hmm. Helpful for Trumpies, pumps and whatnot. Yes. Yeah, you could just go in and do it. Yep. So I've often read that when you have one,

sense that's diminished. Yeah. Another one will try to overcompensate. Yeah. Hearing sight. Yeah. So did you feel like that happened for you? My sight is really good, touchwood.

Okay. And my taste is really good. Like I feel like if you blindfold me and you give me something, I'll tell you the ingredients. This is why you're a foodie. Yeah, this is why I'm a foodie. Also, because I couldn't eat it for my whole life. So now I'm like gobble, wobble, gobble.

Yes. So now I can eat. Okay. So you're the taste. but probably all the sense as well probably feel you said your sight right yes I love I see like I'm a visual

eater as well I love food to look good like I eat I love when it looks all artsy and gorgeous like whenever I dish up even if it's beans on toast I make it pretty do you know what I mean yes make it a bit fancy that eat with my eyes and I just love food so much

but I think it's because I was deprived of it for so long my dad always says you're making up for lost time darling because I can put it away Like at all you can eat buffet I hate the same makeup and I've got hollow legs I think Oh you might

You might You might But wow That's so fascinating to know that you cannot smell But you are no longer interested And it was because of the pain of the surgery Yeah

I just thought it's not worth it If I had it Like people through COVID Lost their sense of smell right And it really like Traumatized them or affected them And they didn't like it

And it was like a change Because I never had it I thought What's the point If it was taste, I'd probably be like, send me under. Let's get my taste sorted out. But smell, I'm like, where do I need it for? Where you need it for?

You know, so on that note is I didn't realize how prevalent this is. But there's a significant percentage of the population who lose a sense, we'll say. And then literally have to exist without it. So it's just so interesting. And I think maybe I'm looking at it from a place of privilege knowing what it's like to have it and lose it. Because during COVID, I remember getting COVID. Yeah. Losing my ability to smell.

It impacted taste as well. Yeah. And I just, it was so unbearable. Mm. You know. But it's because it's different. It's not what you used to. It's like a shift.

Yeah. Yeah, I'm totally cool with it. But I find it crazy when, you know, I'll be doing whatever. And my little boy would be like, oh, that smells nice. And I'm like, I find it fascinating. Because I'm like, how can he smell? But I can't. Yes.

And then Alex is like, because people smell, babe. And I'm like, yeah, but I don't. He could have ended up like me. Yes. But when I do the washing with him, I'm like, is this fresh or dirty? And he's like, stinky mama. I'm like, thank you, darling. Like, he helps me with the washing and like, oh, that's.

He's so funny. And he can smell everything. He's so good. Oh, heaven forbid we go to the supermarket and the fish is laid out on the ice. I hate that smell, Mama. Please, not the fish. It hates the smell of fish. And I'm just pushing him in the trolley, thinking,

now this is sick. This is so cool that you can smell. Yeah. Look at that. It makes me so happy. It makes me so happy. So I'm like living vicariously through him and his smell. And it shows you how much appreciation we should all have. Yeah.

The ability to smell. Exactly. You know? Yeah. I love it for him. All right. So then if we can talk about singing. Yes.

Okay. So this is. 13, 14, when you're dealing with scent. Yeah. Right. But between 14 and 17, it sounds like you've already started singing as a passion. Yes. Right.

At what point do you begin to think, I want to do this beyond just a passion? Oh, gosh. That one took me a while because I was quite shy. Like, I was painfully shy, but I loved singing. So I was the type of kid that would lock myself in my room for hours until I could hit like the Christine Aguilera knots, the celendion, the pink. Like I'd sit in my room for hours.

It was like homework to me. If I heard a song and it had big notes and riffs in it that I wanted to kind of replicate, I'd be like, I'm not leaving this room until I get it. Like I would sit for hours and hours by myself, just singing. It was just the best feeling. Like it gives me a feeling like inside that just makes me feel like,

giddy, especially when I hit the notes that I've been like practicing or whatever. So singing was just a passion that was like undeniable in my life. I just loved it so much. Did you ever, and I'm sure you've thought a lot about this is, have you identified what the catalyst was, right? Because talking, I've talked to so many incredible musicians, Youngblood, Jamelia, right? Sheryloyd, right? Yeah.

And what I've noticed is this commonality. around almost escapeism. So almost a, I'm singing to not do this. Or I'm singing because I don't want to be involved in this. Yeah. I'm singing to express myself because I can't do it over here. Yeah. Did you find that there was any link between your singing and something else happening in your life?

I think just anything. Like I wasn't academically bright at school. I wasn't interested in learning. Sounds terrible, but I wasn't. If it was music and dance and drama, I was like A-Star student, I got A's and Bays and Bays in that. But maths, English, science, forget it. I was like, bore off.

I'd just sit with a bunsen burner and have a bit of fun, do you know what I mean? But I couldn't help it. It just wasn't there. I tried. It just wasn't there, whereas I knew singing was like my escape. It was my thing. It was what I was really good at. So I found that quite early on, luckily.

But then I started to worry thinking, I remember sobbing that I filled my GCSEs. And my mum was like, it's okay, darling, you're going to be a singer. And I was like, why are you such an irresponsible parent? I'm never going to get a job. And she was like, but you're not going to need a job. You're going to be a singer. And I'm like, stop saying that.

You don't know that for sure. Like she was so chill. And I remember thinking, how am I not getting a bollicon right now of my mom for failing school? but she was like, babe, like, it doesn't matter. It's not the be all and end all. They're grades. I get it.

Yes, I wish you did better and you probably are good. But you're so gifted and I know you're going to make it. And I'm like, how many people say this to their children? Do you know what I mean? So I thought nothing of it. But isn't that interesting that you didn't, so when you failed those, which I didn't realize you did, right? I did. I mean, you know, it's one of those where I could see you being scared of prospects, career prospects.

Yeah. And you're probably, what, 17, 16, 17? Yeah, well, 15. I'm like a young, I'm a summer baby, so I went to prom and everything when I was 15. Okay, so 15. Yeah. But your mother believed in you to the point where she said,

no, you're going to be a singer. I thought she was nuts. At what point did you actually believe her? I think I, like, don't get me wrong. I can't sit here and be like, oh, I didn't know I was that. good. I knew I was gifted with the singing, but I had no confidence whatsoever. So like singing in school shows or talent shows, like I would sing with my friends and it'd be a thing, but I would never, I was never one to grab the mic and be the centre stage and be centre of attention. That was my

worst nightmare. I hated that. Yet my mom was constantly in the background like pushing and pushing and pushing and I remember she took me to an audition in Sunderland for a West End shore because I love musical theatre. Like, I'm such a musical theatre geek. And she wanted me to audition and I was like, I don't want to do it, I'm embarrassed, I don't want to go, I'm really scared, like, I'm terrified, I'm not into it. By only my musical theatre is so over the top and confident and you're walking in a room and everyone, me, me, me, me, la la la la, and I was just like, I remember getting my sticker with my number on. I remember thinking, get me out now. And I came, she dropped me off two seconds

later, I'm stomping out the door and I'm like, I'm not going in. She's like, what do you mean you're not going in? I was like, you can't force me? And she was like, yes, I can. And I was like, no, you can't. And then we had a bit of an argument on the stairs. And then she was like, you have this gift and you don't want to share it with anybody. You're so talented. Why can't you see that? This is incredible. Your gift is, it's mind-blowing. You don't see it. And I'm like, I do see it. But I want to do it in my bedroom. I don't want to do it with people staring at me. And then X Factor dropped the age. because at the time

I think you had to be 16, 17, 17 or something to audition and they dropped the age that year my mom was like, I think you should go for X Factor and I was like, not a chance. She's like, look, if they tell you you can't sing and you don't make it, we've tried. I will leave you alone forever. I won't make you sing if it's not what you want to do,

fair enough. But please can you just try so that you can hear from other people that you're good rather than me. She's like, because you don't believe me when I tell you that you're great. And I'm curious, was there anyone in your life at that point

also saying that you were great at singing? Or was it only your mother? My dad, being a singer himself, he knew that I had a great voice. My brother always knew I was a great singer. But it was kind of just like us. Friends would be like, oh my God, maybe I was such a good singer. But it wouldn't be anything.

Yeah. It wouldn't be like, this is great. Like my mom was my biggest cheerleader. Yes. So she wanted the world to like, she wanted me to showcase it. Interesting. But it sounds like,

you didn't fully believe her. No, I didn't. At all. You thought she'd just be a mom. Yeah. Everyone tells their kids they're special. Right. I tell Axley special all the time, which he is.

But I was like, Mom, you love me regardless. Like, you think I'm great, but I might not be that good. I know I'm good, but I don't know if I'm X Factor winning material good. Yes. And then just before the auditions,

Newcastle cancelled, and she came in my room at 4 o'clock in the morning. And she was like, your bag's all packed we're going to Glasgow and I was like I beg you pardon she went we'll go into the X Factor auditions in Glasgow and I thought oh she's still at it she's still trying to push this so I thought oh my gosh rocked out of bed put a big jacket on with a big hood because I thought if any of my friends see me on TV it's game over so I put my hood on went to the auditions got through all the stages got to the judges and I was a I was a I was a

song like Larry the Lamb, I didn't know I had such vibrato in me. Really? I was that nervous and I've never experienced nerves vocally where I'm trying to sing something and my voice is doing something different. I remember thinking, oh God, I sound awful. So I don't know how I even got through, but I think they could see something in me maybe and then the further I got. And I remember, I'll never forget it, I got through and I got a gnaw at boot camp.

And I remember ringing my mom and I was like, everyone's so confident and I'm just not. I want to come home. I give it a goal. Please let me come home. And she was like, oh darling I'll come and get you. Where are you? Like I had to tell her where the house was in the middle of nowhere for boot camp. She was ready to come.

And I rang her back and I was like, Ma'am, I'm back in. And she was like, what? I'm like, they've told me, I'm back in. I don't know why. Maybe they're going to start making groups or something. And my mom went, do you know what, darling? darling, if you're lucky and God is watching, you'll be put in a group.

And I was like, thinking, oh, cheers, you don't think. You've pushed me hearing now you're saying I'm not good enough. That's what I'm thinking. I thought, you're joking now. But I knew what she meant now because she was like, you're so gifted, but you have no confidence. Like, I did not have it. So she's like, if you're lucky, they'll put you in a group. So try and get in a group.

And I was like, all right then. And I remember getting put in the group. And I was like, this new lease of confidence just came out of me. The moment though, before your mom gave the prayer around you get into your group. Yeah. You had been denied, right? So you were going home. Yes.

How did you end up staying? So we got called back into a room. And they were like, we're looking at maybe doing groups this year. Like we're really keen on finding some groups, whether we have to make them ourselves or whatever. So we think you're all talented, but we're just trying to like work some things around. And we were in two different girl groups originally.

So me, Jessie and two other girls were in a group. Jade Leanne and another girl were in a group. Both auditioned again. We were put through so much on X Factor. We were here there. We were thrown here there in every way. It was a lot. It was definitely a learning curve for me.

Yes. And again, someone who's not very confident, I was thinking, oh my gosh, like, what is going on? And yeah, we eventually, we got nose again. I thought, I'm coming, I'm going, I'm coming, I'm going. And then they called four names on stage. And it was me, Jesse Leanne and Jade. And they just said, do you want to be in a group? And we were like, yeah?

And then we won. Look at that. It's wild. Look at that. So in that process, though, it feels like. It feels like your confidence grew. Yes, it did. How?

I think having girls around me, I remember singing in front of Jessie for the first time, and she was like, oh my God, you are like Christine Aguilera. And I was like, what? She was like, listen to her sing. Listen to her sing. And she was like gathering people around and be like, sing, babe sing. And I was like, oh my God. And she just made me feel amazing.

And then the same with Leanne and Jade. Like they were like, oh my gosh. like this is so good but weirdly I mean I've said this before but there was a guy called Elliot who put the Spice Girls he was part of the Spice Girls like journey I guess

and I again like I say I was so not confident I was so not out there when I was singing I sounded like Larry the Lamb it was awful and I was singing in the squash courts one night at boot camp because it was really echoey and the acoustics were so nice and I remember singing something in there with like Jesse or whoever

whatever girls were in there at the time. And I wasn't in the band. I wasn't on the list for the girl band. And Elliot was like lingering, hovering around everyone, like listening to their rehearsals and sing. And he sprinted back to the producers. And I think it was Kelly Rowland, Tulsa, Louis and Gary Barlow. He sprinted.

He was like, we've missed somebody. And they were like, who? And he was like, the little blonde thing, the little blonde one. What's her name? So they're getting all the pictures out. And it was like, her. And they were like, really? Really?

And he was like, no, I've just heard her saying and you don't understand. And they were like, she wasn't that good because I wasn't, I was not good. And then luckily they were like, all right, we'll take a chance. So I think it was supposed to just be the three girls. Look at that. I know. So Elliot, you. Elliot, everything to Elliot.

Have you ever talked to Elliot since? Yeah, a little bit, yeah. Yeah. He used to take us out to the cinema and everything when we were on X Factor. He is the nicest, most genuine guy ever. He's brilliant. Look at that. You know, I always say there are moments in life that are these inflection moments.

Oh, yeah. That change our life. Now, it's interesting. You could look at that story and say, that was Elliot. Or you can also look at that story and say, you stepped out onto that court. To sing that night. Yeah. Everything happens for a reason, doesn't it?

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Tap the banner to learn more and get a quote at USAA.com slash bundle. Restrictions apply. So the super group is put together. Yes. And you go on to win. Yes. For what I understand, this is the first group to win the X Factor.

Yeah. All right. Not bad. Crazy. Not bad. Not shy. And then you go on to participate in a little group called a little mix. Yeah.

Casual. I will say what I was blown away. This is the stat I was blown away. So I was interviewing Ashley Roberts. and I was doing research on the Pussy Cat Dolls. Yeah. At how many albums, streams and singles, the Pussy Gats, Pussy Gat dolls had sold.

Yeah. There were only a few groups that had sold more. Right. You know the top three. Okay. It was Spice Girls, the Supremes. Oh, wow. And Little Mix.

No. Yes. I thought you were going to say Destiny's Child or like on Vogue or... Destiny's Childs was next. Wow. Yes. That's wild. In terms of albums, streams, singles.

That's mind-blood, isn't it? That's just... We did so well. That is crazy. Yeah, it's just mad. Yeah. So when you think about that entire period, like how many years were you and the girls together?

Twelve, I believe. Okay. Yeah. And that was an important 12 because you were literally becoming a woman. Yes. During that time. So how do you think being in this super group shaped you as a woman? Oh, massively. I feel like, because I was the youngest as well, I looked up to them so much. And I learned so much from them. I feel like grown up in the public eye isn't easy. But when you have three other girls who are going through it, it kind of takes the load off a little bit. But I always say, like, it sounds crazy. But

Me and the girls were so in each other's pockets and so in sync that it was like next level in sync. So like if one of us went through heartbreak, we all felt it. If one of us lost a family member, we were all heartbroken. If one of us was like winning in life, we were all winning in life. Like we were literally, we felt every emotion like in sync. It was so bizarre. Like not just like, oh, babe, I'm here for you. It was like we were all heartbroken because we just felt it.

we didn't want to see one of us that down and that sad. We all just kind of tuck it on as well. So I think our connection was huge. And I'm so grateful because when we were put in the group, it was like, go bands clash. You'll argue. You won't get along. It'll be really competitive.

And there was moments where it was like, babe, can you stop pissing me off? But other than that, we just adored each other. Like we had each other's backs. we didn't argue. And even though people wanted to make that the headline every five seconds of our career, we didn't. We just knew exactly what we wanted. We had each other.

We all had one vision and one goal and we knew what we wanted to do. And we were always the underdogs. Like from the very beginning, it was like, you won't do very well. Girl bands don't do that well. And it won't last. And all this stuff. And I think that's what gives us the fire in our bellies to want to one or one. work so much and so hard to prove everybody wrong.

So I think that's why we were never, we never just sat back and thought, we were like, what can we do now? What else can we do? How can we make this bigger? Where can we take this now? Like, we were constantly going at a pace. Yes. I mean, you can see it in the results, you know, so the biggest selling single,

shout out to my ex, stayed at number one for three weeks, achieved over two million. in total sales in the UK. Wow. Billboard ranked Black Magic among the 100 greatest girl group songs of all time. Wow.

The debut album, DNA, was the first by a British girl group to debut in the U.S. top five. Yeah. Spice Girls didn't even do that. That one was a big one. I mean, your fourth album, Glory Days, became the longest reigning

top 40 album by a girl group since. the Spice Girls. It's like numbers don't lie in terms of how successful the group was. Do you think there was ever a point where you were no longer the underdog or did you stay? Stayed.

You stayed. Yeah, you could read those numbers to a million people and they'd be like, yeah, they weren't that good. People just didn't see us as that credible for a long time. I think eventually people started to see it, but I still think they looked at us

and thought, oh, they're just four little girls in a pop group. I don't think they really saw the graft and the dedication and the numbers and the success that we had, I still think people kind of oversee it a little bit. Why do you think that is, right? Now that you could reflect back a little bit, I know it was a different time in terms of media.

Yeah. But why do you think that the little mix remain the underdog? I think part of it was our age and our name, which is great because it kept us here. young. But at the same time, I think we were like four little girls kind of at the start. And I think even when we were like 30 years old, people were still like, oh, little mechs. Like I don't think they really like people age, funnily enough. And I think they always just seen us as like these little pop girlies. I don't think we ever shook that, which we didn't really care here to be

honest because we were like we're living our best lives but people did have that like opinion on us yeah so i got to the uk in 2017 2018 every time i heard little mix right yeah i thought um you know advocate around feminism yeah advocate around queer rights yeah you know so to me those are positions of leadership mm-hmm did did you feel like that gave the group any bit of uh The visibility of maturity? Yes. Okay. I do think so.

I think like when I'm saying people didn't see us as that credible and all these other things, it was more the people that didn't want to like Little Mix. Everyone who wanted to like Little Mix, they were the reason we were so big because they were so dedicated. They were like die hard and still are like die hard fans. Like I think our Spotify streams were still one of the highest girl groups.

Still, we haven't released a song in years. But they're still there. They're still listening. They're still loving it. And that's why I think we have it all to thank. They are everything, our fan base. They were huge. Yes.

Like massive. Yes. Yeah. Massive. They went hard. Gargantuan. Yeah. Large.

Like every. Yeah. Every descriptor you could say for massive. It was so good. So those moments, though, I know that you've said that there were some of the greatest moments of your life, but it must have been challenging as well. Oh, yeah. When you reflect back, what was, or what do you believe was the most challenging moment for you

during your time with Little Mix? Oh, God. I don't even want to see it because everyone would be like, oh, let it go. It was so long ago. Probably going through a public breakup was the worst ever for me. It was horrible. And also going through, like, personal things with family or personal things with, like, like we were so dedicated to Little Mix

that I think being away from our family and friends was really difficult. Like that's another side that people don't see. We were like young girls whisked off and that was it. I didn't see my mom very much. My brother didn't see my family for a lot of time. And I think that was kind of the hardest parts. And then just going through anything personal in the public

is just icky McBickey. Yes. It's awful. Yes. How did you manage that? because, you know, you were from looking at you as a little girl, right, moving around, the sense of I need to have some stability in my life. Yeah.

Then you become an adult and you're moving around, going around, there's no stability. Yeah. So how do you then reconcile being able to feel safe and stable and this motion that you're continually in? I think I probably feel more safe and settled now than I ever have been but I think it's because I have like a very stable relationship I have a child like things aren't as chaotic as it was in the little mixed days so I think obviously having a child it just puts everything in perspective right you don't sweat the small stuff anymore you think there's actually bigger things in life

than these worries and issues that I have like yeah they're valid it's great to feel them but I think when you kind of settle down and you meet your person and you have a child and all these lovely things happen in life it's like oh I can I can exhale I can exhale this is lovely but during that time it seems like during the you know the time in the group you couldn't you're just I couldn't no you just yeah it was too much it was really hard to have relationships when we were in Little Mix because I think it's a lot to ask of someone um because we we were never home, like ever, and we never really had days off.

It was probably like round about Christmas would get a little bit of time off, but yeah, I think it would have been hard to kind of navigate a relationship at that time anyway. And I remember meeting Alex, and we were going to go on the Ariana Grande tour for three months. And I was like, look, I'm going on to her three months. We can call this off now, if you want.

And he was like, why would we do that? And I just, in my head, assumed that someone wouldn't wait for me, if I was doing my thing for three months. So I just assumed, oh, he'll probably just go, and then that'll be it. And he was like, why can't I wait for you for three months? What was wrong with that? And I was like, really? He was like, yes.

Well, why would I? What do you mean? And I was like, okay, fab. And then that was when we started our relationship. So the first three months of our relationship, we would just Skype and Skype. But let's talk about that, though, because you had already assumed, that you can't sustain a relationship with someone, or maybe someone can't sustain a relationship with you,

or maybe it's not fair. Yes. Because of your job. Yes. Right. So when you look back, what do you think it was or what is it? And this isn't just for you. This is for anyone who's in this constant flow in their position.

What do you think the reason is why a relationship can't be sustained? I think it probably comes from maybe past relationships. and how the other person's handled it. And then you just assume, oh, nobody's going to want this. Does that make sense? Yes. So I think maybe my previous relationship made me think, I probably can't have my care can eat it.

I probably can't be a pop star and have a relationship. It's one or the other. Okay. Okay. Can we talk briefly about the past one? Yes. Yes. It was big.

Yes. It was pretty big. So this is the relationship with Zane. Yes. Okay. So how would you describe it? Because you two were part of these two enormous groups. And it felt like, okay, the press was making it about the two of you.

Yeah. But how would you describe that moment with him and how the public received you two? I think because we were so young and we were both starting out, it was very early days for One Direction and Little Mix. We just won X Factor when I met him. Yeah, I was on X Factor because I remember sneaking out every night to say them. So this is early. This was early days.

Okay. And it was all very new for them as well. So I think meeting someone at that time in your career who's kind of at the same point is kind of refreshing. Because it's like, oh, you get it. Like we kind of get each other. We've got this like same kind of thing going on. And it kind of just worked and maybe we clicked from that. and it was pretty easy at first it seemed

and then I think it got more difficult obviously as it went on Would you say he was your first true love? Yes Okay Yeah Yeah because I can see it Because it feels like

Yeah You were You know You were in and out of the hospital You were very sick when you were little Yeah You know a very strong relationship with your mom Yeah

That X factor was really your evolution Yes, it was. As a woman. Yeah. You know? Yeah. So that's your first proper love. Yeah.

Like I had little boyfriends at school and whatnot, but nothing like, oh my God, this is it. But we were engaged to be married, so clearly we had feelings for each other. But I think at that age, I thought that this is it. But when I look back now, I'm like, oh, my God, but I was so young, how was I to know that that was it? Because I didn't know any different. Do you know what I mean? Yes. So I think.

Now, were you advised, because also talking to many artists, almost all of them were advised not to at least showcase that they were in committed relationships because it would impact, especially the men. Yes, I was going to say that. The men, yeah. It's always the guys. Not necessarily me. I think part of us keeping everything private was because it was nice to have something private in general,

because everything else was just laid out. But I think we didn't want to, like, I felt bad for the girls because a lot was made to be about him. And it was the start of our careers. And I think everyone was worried that I was like, we're only going to make it because it's off the back of one direction. And it's almost like our success was kind of linked to that. Which it's not the worst thing in the world.

But I think at the time, it must have been frustrating for the other girls and getting asked about them all the time. It is a bit annoying. And when you're like young and you're in a relationship with someone, you're not just going to talk about them 24-7 in interviews, but it's what people wanted. But then I would talk about it and people would be like, shut up.

We don't want to know. Do you know what I mean? Like I feel like with, when you're in the public eye, like with relationships, like even just then when you were asking about it, made me feel a bit sick because it's been installed in me to just not talk about it. Because I can't win either way. I talk about it. People hate it.

I don't talk about it. People get annoyed. there's no like balance with that kind of situation that happened. But then I'm like, and it annoys me when you bring something up. Like probably the character could want, I think. People would be like, get over it. It happened years ago. It happened.

It was a big moment in my life and it happened. It doesn't mean that I'm just like, oh, never mind. I move on. Like it's a big deal. So I think it is tricky, but I think loads of people in the public eye have that. Like every time they talk about previous relationships or anything, it's like, why are you harping on about it? Yes.

But then people are so interested, they want to ask. So I'm like, I can't win. And then on top of all of that that you said, which I agree with is that was your first love. Yeah. And I think that there is something that, especially in studying relationship science, is that that first love does a lot with regard to shaping how we then show up in our relationships. Mm, 100%. You know, so that's what. why it's also important to talk about it.

Yeah. So then how did that relationship with Zane shape how you then loved after him? Probably not good. It wasn't ideal. I think it definitely, at the time, I thought everything we experienced in our relationship was normal because it was my first relationship, first love. I was like, oh, this is how it's supposed to feel. it's supposed to feel a little bit toxic in some ways.

This is probably normal. And then when I become single, I was almost thinking like, I never, ever want to go through that again. I didn't even want to meet anybody. I was like, that's me done. I don't think I could bear that pain. Like the pain of heartbreak is so grim

that I remember thinking, I'm done with men forever. That's me done. And then when I met Alex, I had so many issues in our relationship at the beginning that I probably didn't notice at the time but now reflecting back, I'm thinking, oh, that probably wasn't, it wasn't good.

And I've noticed it a lot. Like in the start of the relationship, I would handle things differently with Alex and he'd come at it with such a level head that it would throw me, if that makes sense. It does. But can we talk about those things? So then how long, how old were you when you and Zane broke up?

I actually don't remember maybe 21, 22 maybe. Okay. Maybe a bit older? I can't remember. But you're still in the group, though. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Just in the group. So still in the group.

So you're still in the group. You break up and you had just mentioned that, you know, you and the girls, you feel each other's heartbreak. You feel each other's pain. So they must have felt that. Oh, absolutely. They went through it. Them girls, bless them. We went through a lot.

It was a really difficult time. I think the press, like. the public. It was just a lot. There was times when the girls were just huddle around me or there was times Leanne was doing crazy dances in the street

just to distract from me because it was getting a lot. It was too much. It was just everywhere. It followed me like a bad smell that I can't smell. That you can't smell. But it was like a bad smell

that you could smell. Yeah, I could smell that one. It was honestly like a really difficult time. I'd never navigated heartbreak let alone having everyone criticize it in the public eye. So I think I felt embarrassed. I felt weird. I was really sad. And it was just like going through all these emotions and going through it with everyone staring at me. It was like, it was mortifying.

How did you get through that heartbreak? The girls. Probably the girls. And it just so happens that at the time, I think like Black Magic went to number one for weeks. Like things were really taken off in our careers. I was so busy. I was so dedicated to the girls that I thought I have to just get my shit together and get to work I can't sit and move around I'm not going to not go to work because I'm heartbroken so I had to just go through it grin and bear it

and there was times when yes I caved in live performances and whatnot but the girls rallied around so in live performances yeah there was one I have never lived it down but the girls again the girls were just like straight away just made a shield

and they were like yep nothing to say here. So I think they, yeah, they were so on it. Like the girls just absolutely smashed it. If it wasn't for them, I really would have struggled in my family and friends and things like that. So it was good. I think it was just like I've just felt like a little fish in a ball, really. So how do you then go from that, like that moment of you're breaking down, right? So you're feeling the emotional weight of the breakup. Which by the way is so painful for most people that it is the equivalent pain to breaking a bone. Really?

Yeah. There have been studies around the equivalence of heartbreak. And they have attributed it. Many scientists have attributed to literally breaking a limb. It makes sense. It does. It feels like real pain. You can't eat.

You can't sleep. It's awful. And it doesn't go away that quick either. It takes a while. Yes. But yeah, I think it definitely shaped me in a way that, I don't know, I learned a lot, which is good. I think I learned a lot from the relationship.

But yeah, I think then meeting Alex, straight away, though, I was like, he's just going to break my heart. What's the point? So I just assumed, Andy was a footballer, so I thought, I'm just asking for trouble. And I remember it came out in the press that I was seeing Alex. And my dad, after just seeing me go through it, he rang me, he was like, what are you doing? I was like, what?

you've just dated a boy band member who's completely shattered your soul and now you're going for a footballer and I was like yeah but he's not like the other footballer's dad he's different he's really nice and he was like oh yeah great I bet he is

so he was just fuming my brother was fuming my mom was a bit like really I don't know because we just had this impression of footballers cheat as scandal whatever but then I met him and I was like but he's so sweet and so genuine

but what even got you to that point because you had just basically sworn off men for the rest of your life. Yeah, it was like a year and a half later. Okay, but see, a year and a half later, but still, sometimes it takes people years. Oh, yeah. It does, yeah. So what allowed you to then be open? And where did you meet Alex? The girls made me go on a date and I'm. And I'm not good at being a single gali. Like, I was, and it was fun, and I went on dates, but.

I just think, because I wasn't ready, everyone just gave me the ick. And everyone just like, I just didn't, I don't think I wanted it. I don't think I was ready. But then I got to the point where I felt so alone. And I was like, I don't think I'm good at being single. I think I'm a relationship person. Like, I need that other person. But I felt like, yeah, I loved it.

I felt independent. I had a great time. But then I was like, I want to meet my person now. Okay. I think it's time. So it's dating up. Dating up. So you're on there.

Yeah. And so you see Alex? Mm-hmm. Okay. And then you message him or he messages you? The girls recognized him because they went to a game years ago. And he was at the game. The girls were at the game.

And then the TV people were like, oh, it would be really cool if we had like a footballer. If you were like a pop group, do you want to do it? And like, obviously now I know he was like, is the blonde one there? Is the blonde one there? And they were like, no. And he was like, okay, I'll do it. Because he had a bit of a crush on me at the time. So the girls met him, thought he was really funny.

They were having a bit of banter. And then when he came up on rear, Jesse was like, it's that guy. And I'm like, who? And she was like, oh, where he's really nice, you used to match him. And I was like, what does he do? Who is he?

We had no idea who he was. Oh, really? Because I don't come from a family of, like, football who are on fans either. Never watched football in my life. So obviously it was him. And it wasn't until, I was actually on a date with somebody else at the time

someone I was seeing for a little while and his name popped up on my phone he randomly texted me while I was out at dinner and the guy I was with was like Alex Soxley Chamberlain just text you and I was like, hmm? And he was like the Alex Oxley Chamberlain plays for England

and Arsenal and I was like is that good? I don't know and I was like anyway we don't need to worry about him How is he seeing what's on your phone. Yeah, that's what I thought. But we had that one at red flag.

But he probably wants you to answer it. But he probably was just a bit like, oh my God. I'm like, so much chamberlain's messaging you. But at the time, I was like, is that a big deal? I don't know. And it wasn't until I started dating him that he kept getting asked for pictures when we were out. And I thought, what?

And then I looked into him and went on YouTube and stuff. But I had a little stoke, you know. I just remember meeting him thinking, don't think anything of it, Perry. Don't go into it thinking, oh, he's going to be the one, just date him, see what happens. But I remember meeting up with him for the very first time at Cirque Nightclub. Okay. Yes. And I got there with Leanne and some of her friends.

And I remember getting out the car and he was stood in the doorway, waiting to like meet us to take us to the table. And I remember like pinching Leanne and I was like, I think I love him. Immediately. Immediately. I've gone from, don't expect anything. Don't even get into it. he's a football, I don't go there, and I've seen him, and I was like, uh-oh. And it's the first time I'd felt like that in such a long time.

I was like, oh my God, I actually fancy him. I didn't fancy anybody. Like, I think because I went through so much, I was like, nope, everyone gives me the ick, don't even want to know it. And then he was just completely different. And he was really charming, really funny, so charismatic, really holds a room well. He's confident but not cocky with it.

Like, he's just got every, he was ticking every box, like without even trying. and I fell from pretty quick. Yes. But how did you, because you talked about those negative behaviors. Yes. That you picked up. Yes. So what were some of those that you exhibited early in your relationship with Alex?

Probably like if something happened, I'd be worried how he'd react to such thing. Okay. And he'd be like. I mean, can you give an example? Like little things might happen. And I'd think, oh, no. he's going to like kick off he's not going to like this and I'd be like oh this happened and he'd be like all right and it would throw me it was he was like he's he's very mature he's very laid back

he's very level-headed he doesn't he's not the type to get mad or get angry or get funny about things very rarely we'll ever argue we're practically in reverse the pair of us like we're so chilled I see and I in my head was a bit like oh he's going to be so annoyed about this or oh this is going to really piss him off and it never did and he was so chilled and I'd be like oh okay okay yeah and it was refreshing it was nice so it seems and you're not saying this I'm saying this this is my interpretation is okay that from the previous relationship yes you felt like you were walking on eggshells yes yes and then you enter this relationship thinking you have to walk on eggshells yep and you're like hold over a second I'm like wait a minute this is weird

I can, yeah, we could talk about things. Yeah. calmly. Yeah. So did you feel like you were then pushing him away at all? Yes. I think so, yeah. I think I was just a bit like, oh, you don't care kind of thing.

But at the same time, I'm like, wait, no, this is good. Like he's so calm and he's so lovely and he's so approachable. It's like, it's a good thing. if that makes sense. Yes. And I remember there was one point my ex reached out, and I didn't know how to handle the situation because I'd been with Alex for like a year and a half, two years.

And I felt a bit uncomfortable about it. And I remember sweating and, like, panicking, thinking, I've got to tell him that, obviously, I've spoke to him. Yes. And I remember being terrified, thinking, oh, no. And then I sat down and I was like, I need to tell you something. He was like, okay, is everything all right? I was like, yes, such and such reached out today.

And it was really weird. And he was like, same what? So I told him everything. And then he was like, okay, well, I really appreciate you telling me. Like, thank you for letting me know. That's fine. Like, hopefully he doesn't contact you again. And I was thinking, okay.

That's it. And that's that. And that was it. And it was like, he's always kind of been like that. Yeah. And I think I needed that. Yeah. It is.

it is um i'm you know i'm thinking about how to say this it's like i think from for many people right you hear about the importance of being in healthy secure relationships and i think what's very important for everyone to know is that you could be as secure as like you grew up sounds like you grew up with secure love with your mother yeah and your father yes but you could enter a relationship being a secure, what's called a secure attachment style, and if that person is not, you will then shift. You will then become unsecure. You could become avoidant, right?

Or you could become something else. But once you move back to a relationship with a secure partner, you can then become secure again. And I think the beauty of that is. Well, there's a beauty and a danger. The beauty and the danger is that who we choose as our partner is, in my opinion, the most important decision of our life. Because it dictates our health, our happiness, how much money we make, how long we live, right? And so that's why having a partner who is healthy is so, so important. And it sounds like you have that with Alex.

Yeah. And so in the early stages of that relationship, did you begin to think about, I may want to marry this guy? Yes. Yes. Okay. I was thinking I hope he asks. Okay.

So you had those conversations? Yeah. Yeah, we did really early on. But he didn't propose until six years later, but, you know, we won't get into it. But he proposed, though. Yeah, he made me weird, but it was worth it. But we always knew we were going to be together forever, I think. How?

Well, we hoped. How did you know it, though? I think we just get each other. We understand each other. We support each other. There's no competition. It's very much just I want to see him win. He wants to see me win.

We want to build each other up. We want to build an empire together. And it's all very equal, which is what I've not really had in a relationship before. So I feel like we're even, Stevens, which is nice. And he's just so supportive of me. Like everything I do, he's my biggest fan. He knows my album, probably better than my A&R, better than my label, better than anyone.

He will notice if someone's changed the production on something or the lyric changes or he's so just such a fan of mine, if that makes sense. And I love that. And it's so nice having someone in my corner being like, and he's also a very confident person with, like, business. and in his career he's had to be very like outspoken in certain situations and that's not me either. I hate confrontation. I avoid confrontation. I don't like arguments. I just cry.

Like as soon as someone starts arguing with me, I don't, like I can't do it. I'm not good at arguing with people. If I have a point to get across, then yeah, I'll sit and I'll hold it together and I'll get it across. But I've learned a lot from Alex because I was a push over for a very long time. and he's like, babe, you don't need to be a push over. You need to stand up for yourself and you need to be heard in these situations. And I'm like, but I can't. He's like, yes, you can.

And he's really helped me, like, come out of my shell with that kind of stuff. So when you think about your love for each other. Yeah. Because so many people have not experienced love. Yes. I'm talking about pure, blissful, romantic love. Yes. How would you describe the love that the two of you have?

Safe. It's calm. It's positive. It's not that horrible pit in your stomach that you need to like get the love. It's it doesn't feel that way. It's like you just accept it because it just comes if that makes sense. So it's like it's lovely. It might sound boring to Sam. But it's just so unproblematic. And I love that. We're not problematic people whatsoever in our relationships. That's a very accurate description of what love it. Yeah. True. Everyone is like, yeah, people are like, it's kind of boring. It's problematic. Yep.

It's safe. Like those are the descriptors for love. That's what you want when you have to deal with such a stressful world. Yeah. You want to be able to come back to a refuge. Yeah. And have that certainty and that safety. Yes.

Yeah. Yes. So then motherhood? Yes. Axel. Yeah. Okay. How does having a child change you?

I think in every way possible. Okay. I think in a positive way. I think like I said earlier, like you don't sweat the small stuff anymore. You just see things so much differently when you've got a child. And I think you invest so much time, like you say, in their happiness, that you kind of just live through their happiness. And I love that this is his first.

Obviously, it's our first time experience in life. And we're still learning and navigating it. But I love seeing it from his point of view. And he asks so many questions that I'm like, huh, that's such a good question. And he's so much like his dad. He's so charismatic, funny. Like he's so jokes. He's got the best sense of humor.

Like he's just lovely to be around. Like, he's brilliant. Yeah. It's one of those where I've, have you always wanted to have kids? Yes. Always. So same with me. I had, do you know what a cabbage patch kid is?

Yes. Yeah, they're little dolls with the, it's a see. Yeah. So I used to have a cabbage patch kid. That's really cute. And I brought it to university with me. And I was like, I cannot wait to have one of these for real. For real.

And I ended up literally having a child that looked just like my cabbage patch. They were so cute. I remember them. Oh my gosh. And it was one of those. where it just fatherhood has changed my life, you know, to another degree. So how do you think it's changed Alex's life? I think it's definitely changed, but I think it's impacted him completely different

than it has me in like the sense of like work and like the things that come with like a mom who's working as opposed to a dad. But obviously Alex is in Turkey as well, which must be so hard for him. and I know it is and it's like I'm at home with Axel and I'm going through everything but then I feel like

it must just be so rubbish for him to not be present but he feels like what he's doing is for the best because he's setting up our life for the future and he's doing all these things and he's very driven and he wants to keep going

and he doesn't want to call it a day yet and I admire that but it is hard not having him with me all the time but I think he'd probably say the same thing like Kevin Axel has changed his life for the better as well. Yes.

Like for sure. You just, I don't know, when you birth like something that's just half of you and half of them, it's like this magical little being, isn't it? Yes. And they're just the best. Yes. It is, I think, the nearest thing to a miracle that exists. Yes.

Especially when you see your child for the first time, you think this is a miracle. Yeah. Literally, this is a miracle that I'm, you know. best feeling in the world. Yeah, it's next level. Yeah. You know, so another topic that I want to talk about and you can go wherever you want on this is so yesterday, just yesterday, I was reading an article, Glamour magazine, about you. Yes. And you know what the article, the title was. The title was why we should stop speculating on Perry Edwards' pregnancy. Yes, I saw that. You saw that? I actually DMed the right on. I was like, say it louder for the people

in the back, badass energy from you. Love it. Yeah. You know what? I was thinking about messaging the writer as well. Yeah, I messaged it. I was like, this is brilliant. Love it. Can we just talk about just not speculation on you? Yes. But just

the speculation on pregnancy among women. Yes. It seems to be prevalent. And I think it's, for me, it feels like it's increased. Yes. Over the years. Yeah. And I think there's a variety of reasons.

But why, for example, that article, why did you applaud the writer? And if you could tell everyone, even what the article, what the basis of the article was. Yeah. I think, so you can look at it two ways, I guess, with the whole pregnancy thing, right? It's a blessing. It's beautiful. People love pregnant women. And they kind of just want to be like, you're pregnant.

You're glowing. And it's a beautiful thing. But at the same time, it's a very vulnerable thing for. women. It's a very private thing for women. And I think, you know, when you're in the public eye, it's true because the article was like, if you speculated one of your friends was pregnant, you wouldn't shout it on their Facebook or their Instagram be like, oh my God, you're pregnant. You just wouldn't do it for everyone to see. I don't think. And I think we have to kind of navigate a bit better with that situation because, yes, it's, yes, it's.

It's beautiful and it's exciting and it's speculation and is she pregnant? I don't know. I want to know. But at the same time, you don't know what's going on behind closed doors with women. And pregnancy is scary. It's worrying. There's so many things that come with being pregnant and the stresses and the scans and the problems and the complications. And like Alex and I have been through a lot with pregnancies that people don't necessarily know about.

You don't have to. I've held it together so well. I knew that was going to get me. Yeah, I think it's a sensitive topic for me, and I know a lot of other women too. And I, you know, I don't think, I haven't necessarily not shared it with people because I'm like ashamed of it or anything.

It's just that it's like such a personal thing to go through and it's really hard. I did EMDR therapy on it, which really helped but it still gets me. But you know, I think it's a tricky situation. You know, me and Alex have been through a lot when it comes to pregnancies and things. Axe was a rainbow baby. So I had a miscarriage very early on with my first ever. a pregnancy. And it was so early, I remember finding I was pregnant. Obviously, I started bleeding not long after. And I went to the hospital and I had the scan and they were like, there's no baby.

And I was like, oh, I've made this up. Maybe I got a false positive or something. And I remember being on my own at the appointment because nobody was there. And I remember going in to see like my gynecologist after with the report. And I was like, can you just explain to me? So there was no baby He was like No no no my darling you've had a miscarriage And I was like Oh

Okay because I didn't understand I was like I thought you were saying there was never a baby He said no there was a baby but now there isn't And I remember thinking Okay And not like insensitively It wasn't like Traumatizing

In the moment Because I thought oh it was very early It was one of those things I kind of, it didn't, it wasn't, it didn't impact me that much. Um, and then when I had Axel, when I was pregnant with him, like I loved being pregnant. It was one of the happiest times of my life. Like, I just love carrying babies. Um, and it was lovely, but I was a bit on edge thinking, oh gosh, like, I want to get past the 12 weeks. I want to get past this and I want to get past every scan. And that pregnancy was complete bliss. It was perfect. Everything

was great. Every scam was positive. and then we fell pregnant again after Axel maybe a year, probably not even. Actually, yeah, not even a year because Axel wasn't even walking yet and we were pregnant. And I remember thinking, right, I found out when I was rehearsing for the little mix tour, the last little mix tour. I was at rehearsals and I thought, oh, I don't feel good. Every symptom under the sun, I was like, I think I'm pregnant. So I remember doing a test. finding out, telling Alex

and he was like, this is great. And I'm like, okay, great, exciting. And then didn't want to tell anybody because I was like, I'm going to wait. Again, with Axel, we didn't tell anybody for a very long time because we were a bit cautious making sure everything was okay before we announced it. So with this pregnancy,

I remember being on tour and every night before a show, I kept bleeding. Like, too much information, sorry. But yeah, I was like heavily bleeding. I remember sitting thinking, this is it. I've lost the baby. It's happening.

And then I went to like a scan like the next day or something and the baby was still there. So the sack was still there, but I had a blood clot around the sack. And I was like, oh my gosh, okay, this is a miracle. Baby's still there. Everything's fine. And then again, it kept happening every night on tour. And I was thinking, oh my gosh, I can't cancel the show. I have to go out.

I have to put a brave face on. have to keep my shit together. Hopefully it's just the blood clot. So every night it was just so uncertain of like, is it this, is it not? Right. So I was completely on edge. Then, obviously it all stopped.

Everything was fine, went to the scan, 12 weeks scan, baby looked great, everything was beautiful. We were like, oh yeah, this is it. The clot's gone, cleared up, everything was fine. And then we went on holiday, started to show because it was not long after I had Axel, so I was like pretty out here. Managed to get through the tour,

there were no problem hiding it. People just thought I was getting in a bit of weight. Yes. And then got back from our trip to Portugal and I think we went for what was our 20 weeks scan, but we were actually 22 weeks. And that was just the worst day of my life, like horrendous. And I just knew something was wrong in the scan.

And he just kept going over the same thing, over the same thing. And he was like, sorry if I'm hurting you. I was like, oh, it's a bit uncomfortable. Like, is everything all right? And he seemed like, not angry, but our doctor was just like a bit like, right. He was like on a mission and I just looked at Alex and I thought, something's not right. And then I remember sitting down and I remember him just seeing these things.

But I don't remember what he said. I've never experienced, like an outer body experience where you know when everything goes in slow motion. Yes. And you start hearing, oh, everything sounds like. Like in the movies. Yes. That happened. And I was like, just sat there.

And all I heard was like, Alex just put his hand on my leg and he went, oh no. And I was just like, oh no, this isn't good. So then I remember sobbing. He was injured at the time and he couldn't really drive. He was struggling to drive. But I couldn't say straight. I was just distraught. And yeah, we basically lost the baby at like 24 weeks.

So I think I was just traumatized. Yeah. Like, it's weird because the first time it happened, I think, because it was so early, I was like, oh, that's sad. But I think when you're fully, like, carrying in your 24 weeks and you've planned out, like, their room and all these things, it's really hard. Yes. But, no, I've never spoke about it before because obviously I ended up a wreck. And nobody knows other than, like, immediate friends and family. And I remember, like, shortly after, like, friends would message and be like,

how's bump? And I'd be like, there is a bump. It was just a lot. You were your friend, Mylene. Yeah. Who's done a lot of advocacy. Yeah. For especially bereavement around miscarriages.

Yeah. I mean, she was awarded MBE. Yeah, I know. She's incredible. love her so much. Oh my God. Something that she said that has just, it just stays with me, is that when you're going through a miscarriage,

that the baby stays with you. Yeah. You heard her talk about this. Yeah. The genes. It caused me. It's so incredible. I didn't know that.

It blew my mind. I was like, oh, wow. That's so magical. Like the thought of having that. And then if I'm blessed enough to have another baby, be in the future it makes me feel kind of like that they're still a part of it in some way. Yes. Yes.

They will be. Yeah. They will be. All of them. Yeah. You know, she really has changed. I think she's helped so many. Oh, yeah.

And not just women, but men because the, so my wife and I went through a miscarriage. Yeah. And I think what's often not discussed is how the man. hides behind emotion. Yes. And doesn't discuss. Yes. Doesn't know what to say.

That's Alex, yeah. Yeah, I can imagine that Alex has gone through quite a lot of emotion. Yeah. I think, I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, but I think with when a woman becomes pregnant and, you know, the second you pay on that stick, you're like, right, what college are they going to? Like, you plan their life. You have this maternal kind of pull straight away. you have this attachment to this baby.

And I know for Alex, it's me that he's worried about. It's me who he's stressing over. And like we've spoke about it before. And Alex just always feels like helpless. And like through that whole situation, he was like, it's not about me. It's not about me.

It's about you. And I'm like, no, it's about us. Like you have feelings in this too. It's your baby too. And he's like, yeah, but I'm not going through it the way you are. I don't have to do all these things. And like, he's like, he's like, like, but I just hate not being able to help.

And I'm like, but you are helping because you're there and you're here and we're navigating, navigating it together. But I do think like we forget that there's two people it takes two to make a baby, of course. And I know he definitely went through it, but he keeps it to himself a lot of the time. But I know he was, he struggled massively. Yes. But he just finds it really hard to not be able to step up and do something about it. Yes. I think, and this is what, I think, the script that society has handed men is that we need to be the fixers.

Suck it up, brave it, fix it. We fix it. There's a problem. So how do you fix it? And I think that's why so many men we turn to work. So we say, okay, you know how we're going to fix it? We're going to make sure that our wife has a better life. We're to make sure that our child has a better life. Yeah. They're more secure. And in actuality, while that could be helpful, it could also be harmful. And what I've learned, and it seems like Alex did this for you and you continue to do this for him is to simply hold space for your partner. Yeah. So your partner knows when they are ready, you are there for them. Yeah.

When they are ready, it's their time. But when they're ready, you will be there for them. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you for sharing that. No. Thanks for listening.

Sorry, I really went for that sobbed, didn't I? Crocky. I tell you what, you never apologize for showing emotion. Yeah. Ever. I'd love just to address panic, your panic attacks. Yes. Because this is something that I see has become more and more prevalent in society,

especially as we're more anxious living in this world. Yeah. So when did you first come across, or when did you first realize that you were having a panic attack? And what have you learned about panic attacks? Well, I remember the first time having one. It was in Vegas. It was like years ago. We went to Vegas for some promo and like performances and things like that.

And I just started experiencing panic attacks, which I'd never had before. So I thought I was dying. I was like, I'm having a heart attack. This is it. I'm a goner. So I went to the hospital and it wasn't until I flew home and I rang my doctor because I made my mom ring an ambulance and she rang my doctor and was like, Perry wants me to ring an ambulance.

She thinks she's having a heart attack and he was like, she's probably having a panic attack and my mom was like, oh. And I was like, don't listen to him. I'm dying. Ring someone. I'm dying. And she was like, oh, okay. And then it kind of just like kept happening.

It was almost like once the floodgates opened, it just kept. becoming a thing. And then I developed like panic disorder, which was obviously the fear of having panic attacks. So I started avoiding so much in my life because I was just so fearful of having a panic attack that it was going to creep up. I see.

And it's so scary. And when you were in the panic attack, you said you felt like you were going to die. What were the other symptoms? Or what did you exhibit? It's like it starts with like a tingly neck and then my arms and legs go a bit limp. And my heart starts racing.

I can't really breathe. Sometimes my vision kind of goes blurry. So it's just like literally feels like this is it. I'm done. And, you know, for years, I thought that like having a panic attack was the scariest thing in the world, which it still feels that way. But I've done a lot of therapy recently since September. It got really bad. I couldn't leave the house in September.

Just a few months ago? Yeah, September last year. Yeah. Yeah. And it was so intense. And I remember thinking, this is not what I want for my life. And I know it's not as easy as that.

I'm not saying I switched it on and off because I don't. But I remember sitting down with my therapist saying, I want to get married. I want to have more kids. I want to have a successful career. I want to do all these things. And I feel like I'm really limited. And my, you know, like my capability is huge.

I'm capable of anything in my mind. But my capacity was not big. it was really minuscule and I just didn't have the capacity for anything at the time and anything to do with being a man easy taking axelter nursery taking them here there and everywhere fine

but when it came to like myself because I guess you have to step up for your children obviously so you have to kind of think right I've got to get through it whereas with work and stuff I thought is it even worth it for me anymore I don't know if it is like I don't want to feel that way

every time I leave the house and go to work Is this when you stopped, because I know you had stopped recording at a certain point in your career? Is this because you were reevaluating? Yeah. Was that around the same time? Yeah. I was kind of at a bit of a crossroads. And at the time I thought, oh, this is awful.

But really, now I'm looking at it. I'm like, no, it was a blessing. I got to a crossroads. And instead of going that way, I went this way because I had to, like, I had to get through it. And I didn't know because having the panic attacks, in my mind, I thought, once I've had a panic attack, I'm done. I'm done. That's it. I didn't realize you could have a panic attack and then come out the other end of it and think, oh, I'm all right. Yes. I've never, I've never had that because it normally lingers for such a long time and the anxiety is just there for so long. It's so overwhelming.

Yes. And I, you know, started having therapy a lot more. Started digging to it. I've done a lot of like belief system things. Like what are my beliefs? Why do I feel certain ways when I'm doing things and why do I feel trapped? Why do I feel like this is going? going to trigger my anxiety or panic. And I started to do like, is it titration? Yes. So I started to, it sounds ridiculous, but I'd go to the shop for a few minutes and then come back.

And then I'd go again. And it's almost like I had to remind my nervous system that it was actually safe. And like I go through a lot with therapy as well. Like, you know, there's the adult, the child, the teenager. I think I was in my inner child for such a long time I was just scared of everything and everything just terrified me

and I couldn't access my adult my adult was not online she was offline and it was just this scared little girl rocking in the corner that's how it felt like you know on this what I find so interesting about panic attacks or anxiety

is how prevalent it is right so even in the statistics right now one in three people one in three experience a panic attack at some point in their life. Really? That's mind-blowing. One in three. One in three.

In the UK, up to 2% of people have had panic disorder, which you described, right? Which is a type of anxiety disorder where you're regularly, where you're scared, right, of having the panic attacks. Yes. And then one in three will develop agoraphobia. Yes. Which you also have. Yes. You have everything, Perry.

I'm winning. If it's a game, I'm winning. You are crushing it out here. I'm taking them all off. Just for fun. Yeah, no. I'm just unlucky, I guess. So agrophobia is twice.

I mean, we're laughing about this, but it's serious. It's really serious. It's twice as common in women as men. Really? Yes. So what is agoraphobia? So agoraphobia is when you feel, well, from my experience, I feel very unsafe and uneasy when I leave the house.

Don't feel safe. And I think for me, it was a case of like, I didn't want to go too far from home because it was too hard to get back. So home was my safe space. And I kind of told myself in my house where I'm safe, nothing can get me, nobody's out to attack me. I'm not going to have the panic attacks. I'm safe here.

But now I've realized that that is limiting me from doing the things that I love more than anything. which is my work, my singing, being a mom, like all these different things. And I just thought something's got to give. And I can't just keep assuming I can fix myself because I can't clearly. So I started having the therapy and that's why I think I've come so far since last September. Like, look, I'm here now. Yeah.

I have this conversation, which is wild because if you ask me in September, I'd be like, never, never. I couldn't do that. I couldn't do that. Yeah. Whereas since September, I've been to Turkey three times, Portugal twice, work every other day, gather and everywhere, like, went to view a wedding venue. All these things that I thought were impossible in September. I just couldn't see the light at the end of the tunnel.

It is a great, I think, testament to your resilience that I think you get for your mama. Yeah. It's a good testament also to, and I think it's a good, place for everyone to sit back and think, okay, why do we have panic attacks? Why do we have anxiety? From all of my research around it is some of it is genetic, some of it is circumstantial, some of it is based on relationships, et cetera, that we've had. It could also be something like, I understand when you were in Vegas, when you had that panic attack, you had espresso. Yeah, I did. And I'd never drank caffeine ever in my life. That is often a touch point, right,

to anxiety. So it's like it's this equation. But it lives up here. And you have done the work. And literally you are here as a result of doing the work. So I applaud you for that. Thank you. And it's not easy.

I'm not sitting here being like, oh my God, I just woke up one day and thought, I don't want this life. It wasn't that. It was days and days and nights and sleepless nights and upset stomach and shakes for weeks. to even get to like the next step and then the next step. So it wasn't easy.

It's being hard. I'm still not 100%, but I'm so much better now than I was then. And I'm like so grateful and so proud of how far I've come. Is this giving you the strength to work on new music? It did, yeah. I've finished my album. You finished the album? Yeah.

Okay, can we talk about this for a second? Yes. Because whenever a guest is coming in, yes. I like to look at their catalog. Okay. I like to evaluate. Okay. See what kind of talent I'm working with.

Yes. I think your voice is angelic. Thank you. I'm serious. It is angelic. Thank you. Right. Yeah. So when are we getting new music?

Oh, ASAP. ASAP. Yeah. So if he wanted to, he would, is the first kind of comeback single, if you will. But I thought my album was finished like last year. I thought it was all done and dusted, ready to go. And then I kind of just sat there and I was like, Like, it's not done. It doesn't feel authentically me.

It doesn't feel like my sound and what I want to do. And then I spent, again, a lot of time in therapy and a lot of time behind closed doors and just like took the pressure off. And I remember my therapist saying like, you can't access your creativity when you're constantly under pressure and you have the weight of the world on your shoulders and you've got deadlines and people saying, come on, we need to get going on. We need to do this. So when I'm in sessions, I'm like, quick, I need a song, I need a single. That isn't fun. That's not creative. It's not genuine.

So I just said to her like, I might just take some time off. I might just stop for a little while, go quiet, figure out what I actually want to do. Yes. Instead of doing it through my music and putting things out and hoping for the best and seeing what works and what doesn't, I feel like I needed to take some time, find my sound, which I think I have. Okay. write some songs that I absolutely adore. So you are writing?

And I've written the majority of my album now. Whereas before I'd probably written four songs on the whole album. Now I've probably not written four of the songs of the whole album. So it's like a huge deal for me because I'm like, oh my gosh. I've done it. I've actually, I have the worst imposter syndrome. I don't feel like I'm that great at writing or like I didn't think I was capable of these things. I just thought, I'm just going to sing.

It goes back to being a kid. Can't do anything academic, can't do anything else, but I can sing. So I thought, if I can just sing some songs, everything would be fine. And then when I got in the sessions, I thought, no, this is, I'm actually quite good at this, I think. I actually enjoy it. And now I'm in a place with my album that if I release it tomorrow and one person loves it and they think it's the best album ever, I'm happy. I'm done. I'm sold. Like, that's good for me.

That's success for you now. Yes. Whereas before my success was kind of determined. by how people would take my music and how I would chart and things like that, which doesn't massively bother me, but when it's not authentic to me and it doesn't work, it's a double-edged, like, it's like a whammy to the soul.

Yes. But now that I love my songs so much, if I adore them and they're so true to me and they're so authentic, if it doesn't work, it doesn't work. Yes. Because I love it. You know what?

I'm super excited about this, about this album. Because I feel like you have lived experience. Yes. You know, and I think as a fan, you can tell when an artist is just regurgitating words that were written for them. Oh, a million percent. You know? You can. I've learned that now.

But that, but you can tell when an artist has lived it. Yes. And there's just this other connection that you make with the art and the artist. And that's what we're going to do on your world. your new album. Yeah. That's 100% it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. This is good. It's good. So now Perry. Yes. We're coming to the end here. Oh my gosh. Last question. Everyone gets this. You've had some incredible conversations throughout your life. Yes. When you think about the most memorable one. Who was it with and what did you learn? Oh, gosh. Most memorable conversation.

actually I've got a good one. My mom, of course. Of course it's all Debs. She always says to me, I always worry about things with Axel or like, is he in the right space for this age? Is he doing what he should be doing and all the milestones there and this, that and the other? And I feel like that a bit about myself as well. I'm like, should I be where I am right now? And is this right? If my mom is choosiest it sounds, she's like, listen, darling, we're like butterflies. Some fly high, some fly low but at the end of the day we all get to where we end up needing to be and we'll get there one way or another

whether we're up here, down there, going through we always end up where we're supposed to be so just let it happen kind of thing and I think it's so cute and I'm like every time I'm doubting things and I'm like oh I should be ahead of this right now or I should be I'm like no I'm just a butterfly

and I'll get there in my own time when it's meant for me and what's for you won't go by you That's another one Deb says. What's for you won't go by you. Yeah. What's for you won't go by you. If it's meant to be for you, it won't pass. I love that.

I love that. I love your mother. I need to end this interview right now so I can go give her a hug. But I want to say this. Final note is, I think you are beyond incredible. Thank you. I saw you. Well, thank you.

But I knew that the second that I met you. There's so many people that I meet. especially in this line of work. Yeah. And you can kind of tell when someone is giving you a performance. Yeah. You can kind of tell when someone is faking. Yeah.

But you came in as genuine as you were leaving. No, that's nice. And I think, Perry, that's your superpower. Oh, thank you. I think that you are incredibly kind. And everyone knows that. Everyone around you. And that's why good things will continue to come your way because of how kind you are.

Oh. And I want you to, truly, I want you to hold on to that because in a world that is so cruel, we need more paris. That's the sweetest thing. I changed my mind. This is the best conversation I've had and I'll remember that now. True. From the bottom of my heart, we do. That's really cute.

We do. Thank you. So keep doing what you do. Oh, thank you so much. Thank you. My biggest takeaway is that Perry is normal. You know, but in a great way, you think about how big little mix was, how much of an international celebrity she is,

the stages that she's, you know, that she's walked across and performed on, the people that she's met, the massive following that she has, but yet she's so normal. And I would argue almost, the most normal celebrity I've ever met, even to the point where she brought her mom and her son with her. Yeah, she's just normal. And I say that in like the highest level of respect. Parenting and relationships, we sometimes place in a box outside of a profession or career. Why? Right. Just as you would have a mentor in your business.

or just as you would have a trainer in sports, why not have a mentor when it comes to parenting? We looked at several people, but in particular, my aunt and uncle, and we would observe how they parented, and we would talk about how they parenting. Just that by itself is enough to become a conscious parent. And this is what the world needs, more conscious parents. You know, when you have a healthy relationship with a parent,

you then know what to do and almost what not to do. And so it's kind of like Perry got this blueprint of how to be a great mom and she's executing it precisely. Because we also met Axel. Axel was here. Axel just gave me a high five. And he's so powerful that my left hand hurts. How old is Axel?

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