We Need To Talk with Paul C. Brunson - Lou Teasdale Reveals The Reality Of Being On Tour With One Direction!

Episode Date: October 7, 2025

Beauty powerhouse Lou Teasdale opens up about life on the road with One Direction, her close friendship with Caroline Flack, and her mission to change the conversation around mental health. Content warning: This episode includes discussion of self harm and suicide. From styling the world’s biggest boyband to navigating the intense scrutiny of fame, Lou shares what life was really like behind the scenes with Harry Styles, Zayn Malik, Niall Horan, Louis Tomlinson, and Liam Payne - from fans chasing cars to quiet one-to-one moments in the chair, where conversations often felt like therapy. Lou reflects on her friendship with Caroline Flack - from the qualities that made everyone adore her, to navigating mental health challenges under the eyes of the world. Today, Lou channels her pain into purpose through her work with suicide-prevention charity Body & Soul, determined to ensure others get the help they need and to show that kindness can truly save lives. Lou shares: ◽ How she became One Direction’s hair stylist ◽ Her favourite One Direction hairstyles ◽ The truth about working on The X Factor ◽ The reality TV transformations they weren’t allowed to do ◽ How mental health support is often left to “unqualified people” ◽ Insights from her close friendship with Caroline Flack◽ Why we need to do more on mental health awareness ◽ Her relationship with footballer Andy Carroll Lou Teasdale, We Need To Talk If you’re struggling, you don’t have to face it alone. We’ve included support charities below: Samaritans - call on 116 123 or visit https://g2ul0.app.link/xghDmmYV4Wb  Body & Soul - https://g2ul0.app.link/yoNKZXDYeXb Campaign Against Living Miserably (CALM): https://g2ul0.app.link/npaQKXUV4Wb Follow me here: https://www.instagram.com/needtotalk  https://www.tiktok.com/@weneedtotalkpod Follow Lou here: Instagram: https://g2ul0.app.link/Wt22ItOYeXb TikTok: https://g2ul0.app.link/QmcImVJYeXb  (00:00) Intro (02:31) Why Lou wanted to join us (04:07) How Lou became a make-up artist at 16 (05:51) Lou's choice to work as a make-up artist for boybands (07:17) The role of a make-up artist outside aesthetics (10:57) Lou's time on X-Factor (15:20) How Lou met Caroline Flack (16:51) How Lou ended up working with One Direction (19:49) How did One Direction change as they found fame? (22:00) Life on the road with One Direction (25:52) Lou's most influential look whilst being with One Direction (28:00) Lou reflects on the year anniversary of Liam Payne's death (33:21) Adobe Express Ad (34:19) Love Better Tour Ad (35:27) The popularity of Caroline Flack (39:35) What was most misunderstood about Caroline? (42:27) The events in 2019 that impacted Caroline's life (48:06) Caroline’s mental health struggles and navigating media coverage (51:00) The role of friends and family in supporting Caroline’s well-being (56:20) The events leading up to Caroline’s passing (58:22) Lou's experience of discovering Caroline (01:01:45) The '#BeKind' social media movement (01:04:49) Lou's charity work with Body and Soul (01:09:09) Lou's relationship with Caroline's mother (01:11:34) Lou's relationship with Andy Carroll (01:14:55) The tabloid treatment of Andy Carroll (01:17:02) Who's the celebrity that's most surprised Lou? (01:17:54) Which celebrity currently has the best hairstyle? (01:18:54) Most memorable conversation (01:23:02) A letter from Lou's sister (01:26:35) Paul's Takeaways Sponsored by: Adobe Express: https://ADOBE.LY/PAUL Get Your Tickets to the Love Better Tour: https://bit.ly/lovebetter-YT Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

You said this place was steps from the water. We just haven't found the steps yet. How much did we save? Enough. Enough to get lost. Or you could book a stay with Hilton. Welcome to your ocean front room. Just steps from the water.

The Hilton sale is on now. Book on Hilton.com or the Hilton app and save up to 20% to get the stay you expected. When you want savings, not surprises. It matters where you stay. Hilton for the stay. Good sleep is everything. That's why Ali's science back support is made with a blend of melatonin and L-D-Nine for both kiddos and grown-ups.

So when your mind won't switch off, you've got something that can help. You're racing thoughts and restless nights won't stand a chance. Find Ollie's sleep solutions for the whole family at ollie.com. That's O-L-L-L-Y.com. I've just watched today's episode, and I wanted to take this opportunity to speak directly to you. Firstly, that we need to talk team and I have considered this episode at length. Suicide is a difficult topic, but one we felt was important in our mission to talk openly about mental health. Lou has lived an incredible and unique life, and I'm sure you're going to enjoy hearing

about how her career has taken her all over the world, working with the world's most talented individuals. Our conversation includes Lou's close friendship with Caroline Flack, who sadly took her own life. Lou has been impacted by a number of losses, and today she shares her understanding of this difficult subject. With the support of the Samaritans, we've approached this episode with sensitivity and care. In the episode description, you'll find links to organizations that can provide help and support. we all need to talk I worked for One Direction

you had a very intimate look at one of the most successful bands was there anything shocking that you learned about in the industry how can I say this and you wanted to be a makeup and hair artist it was just a little girl dream one direction it just got bigger and bigger and bigger

when he never really came home for five years do you think the guys felt safe It's almost like something happens to people who have something amazing happen in their life as if to be like, we need to balance this out. It's almost a year that Liam has passed. Tabloid article feeds into how we treat people. Caroline Fleck was one of the biggest names in the UK, and you're a best friend. She was just really very real.

She wasn't like a celebrity as what you would imagine. She was very open. I don't know if it was to a detriment. Everything happened all at once. I want to talk about how mental health affects so many people. The issue that we have is that if it's not a physical illness, it's not really recognized. I think Caroline pioneered that movement.

You can be anything in the world. Just be kind. So there's one more area that I love to talk to you about. Lou Teasdale, we need to talk. And we are talking. We're talking. All right. Can I start with why are you willing and wanting and open to talk in a long form format now?

Well, I think that mainly I'm not a celebrity myself. I worked for celebrities. My boyfriend is a celebrity. A lot of my friends are celebrities. But I actually was hair and makeup originally. And I think that I should talk about my experiences and the things that have happened. and how suicide specifically has affected me and now the work that I'm doing

and how it affects so many people and mental health. And that's kind of how it came about and I've become more open to thinking about talking about some of the things that have happened in my life because I think it helps other people. And I see people come and talk on your podcast specifically and I think it does help other people

who are going through the same thing. Yes. So that's why I'm here, I suppose. Well, we thank you for being here. And thank you for having me. And absolutely, absolutely. And where I'd love to almost begin your story, was it at 16 that you just to truly become a makeup artist? So 17, when I was 17, I came down to London.

Yeah, I managed to get into London College of Fashion. And I just did my art foundation. And just worked really hard, just did whatever it took. It did take quite a few years to start getting paid. And there's so much exploitation in that industry, in the music industry, in the fashion industry, with not paying people. But it wasn't really until I was pregnant, really,

that I started getting paid properly, which as a woman I always felt like I needed my career, finished my career, and then I can stop earning money and have a baby. And actually, as soon as I was pregnant, I realized people took me seriously and that they had to pay me. Otherwise, I'm not coming, you know. And that's when I started earning proper money and being able to really support myself.

And I bought a flat and things like that. So the career we're talking about is makeup and hair. Yes. Okay, so I'm just curious. Why did you want to go in that direction anyway? And when did you see that that was an actual career that you could, that you could participate in because I don't think a lot of people realize that that's an actual career, you know?

So when did you know for sure? That's the direction you wanted to go in? I don't even know how to answer that. I don't know. It was just a dream. It was just a little girl dream, probably just from seeing it on TV, that that was people's jobs. I never wanted to be the celebrity, but I wanted to be around them and I found it really fascinating

and make them feel good and be their support, I suppose. Ah, so I didn't realize this. So you're saying you wanted to specifically be a makeup and hair artist for celebrity. Yeah, I never worked in a salon or anything like that. I was actually on the biggest black ever and wasn't trained at all and managed to get as high as I could get in hair and getting paid really well and traveling the world, the biggest boy band. You're talking about One Direction?

Yeah, but I wasn't trained. I was makeup first and I did a makeup call. but I worked with a hairdresser who specialised in men. So he was doing like Westlife Boys and that's kind of boy bands. And I was his assistant. So he sort of barber trained me and did all of that. But actually what I realized was it was with the male grooming side of it, it was more like making them feel really comfortable.

And it being undone, not really done, you know, and they're feeling cool. Yeah, break that down from me. I think like, so, you know, know, if they ever had to get another hair and makeup artist because I couldn't do whatever in the early days when I first had my baby, they just felt like they'd done too much to them. Whereas I used to sort of, even if I would sort of blow dry their hair a little bit, I would sort of undo it at the end and make it cool. Do you know what I mean? And just a little bit rock and roll rather than technical hairdressing. And that's what I kind of masked that mastered a craft in. And I ended up getting employed by a lot of men in the entertainment. industry that wanted that look. Okay, so you'd say that what you mastered was this done but undone look. Yeah. But how much of the success of a makeup and hair artist is about your ability to listen and counsel?

And the reason why I say that is, so I've been in the television industry for maybe about 10 years, and I never realized how important the makeup and hair artists are. Now, clearly, I don't need a hair artist. but makeup. Yeah. And what I've noticed is that an artist, whether it be television, music, et cetera, they come in at the beginning of the shoot or wherever they are on set, and they could be frazzled, they could be super stressed with what's going on at home,

and they pour into the makeup artist. And if the makeup artist is able to listen and soothe and calm down, they can go on and perform extraordinarily well. But if the makeup artist is able to listen and soothe and calm down, they can go on and perform extraordinarily well. But if the makeup artist doesn't do that, then they leave the chair frazzled and they could have a terrible performance. Yeah, we're the therapists. Like, that's just how it was. And with my job, we were on tour.

So, you know, I do the five boys, get them ready. But really, then their girlfriends would come in and then we would do like little bits with their hair. And we were passing time more than anything. But all their friends then want their hair cut or their moms or their moms. or their PAs and everyone in their life really, you know, we're all on the road. We can't really get to sell on that easy. So where they would maybe sit down and then they're saying about an argument or something that's gone on for them and you're listening and giving a little bit of advice.

And then the next one generally is who it's with. And so you can kind of, you can kind of see how you're a bit of a, you're in the mechanics of it all really and you can say the right thing to calm it and be helpful in that situation. And I think that for me anyway, I definitely wasn't there because I was the best heroin makeup artist that they could get because they could go and get whoever they wanted in the world quite early on. They were making so much money and everybody wanted that gig because it was really exciting. And, you know, they were from up north and I was from up north and they let me bring my little baby and look after us.

And it felt like a support system for everyone. And that was really important. But even earlier, right, I'm even thinking just early when you kind of cemented this look and you cemented who you were. So you were working with Westlife and was it boys in? Yeah. So Ben, who I assisted, he worked with both of those acts. And actually our main gig was on X Factor. So we worked on the X Factor and we put together the team.

And, you know, these kids would become, and Britain's got talent, and these kids would be coming through and they would have this huge opportunity of their lives that was about to happen. And that room was stressful, you know. That was it what we needed to calm them down and we needed to make them feel confident to do this.

and then manage their parents who were coming in the room, riding them back up again, you know? And I think that I learned quite a lot from that time. I worked there for four or five years and, you know, just learning people and conflict resolution and regulating themselves and things like that. And so you were working still with this gentleman Ben at X factor, but then also on the side, Westlife, the other groups.

Yeah, so what would happen was X Factor would generally spit out a couple of big acts. So we would work with the big acts that came out that got signed by the record label. And then in promo, they would be like Boysome would be putting out, they were doing like a reunion at the time I remember. And he was working with them because he'd worked with them before I worked with him when they were first around. So all these boy bands were doing these big reunion things and he was doing all of that work.

And so whoever he was working on, I would go and work, I would be his assistant. I see, I see. Was there anything that was shocking that you learned working in the early days, you know, that you thought, wow, I didn't realize this goes on, or I didn't realize this happens in the industry? How can I say this? I think that when you understand mental health and you see people that are making good TV,

and they might not be aware of that's why it's good TV. I found it very uncomfortable to be around and one of the cogs in that. So some of the contestants, they might not want them to look really glam because the story is that they're from poverty, basically, and that's a good story for TV. and there were a couple of times where we would, you know,

glam them up and do a transformation, and then that would, we would then get told they don't want them to look like that. And it was knocking the confidence of the person who wanted to look really nice that we were working with as a human. And I mean, you work in reality TV, you know, the duty of care with these people is a really big responsibility. Absolutely. Obviously with X Factor there was Simon Cowell who was just very, very,

I've never still never been around anyone where when someone comes in the room you can just feel the power and he really did have final say over quite a lot of things or someone who worked for Simon who was sort of speaking for Simon in that scenario. But quite often that was probably the most detached person from the contestant and being in the room and dealing with their feelings and what they wanted. Wow. So it was Simon first and then kind of everyone else. Producers, yeah.

Producers, yeah. Wow. So working in that environment, though, I would imagine it's high stress. Because you mentioned, yeah, because you have people coming in for their shot. What they feel is they're one shot at fame. You have loved ones surrounding them. You have judges who probably have faith. favorites, producers, etc.

So it does seem like it's high stress. What I think I've learned from working in that and things that have happened since with people in the public eye who are dealing with extreme mental health episodes. That happened a couple of times with contestants on shows that I've worked on where you're trying to keep it with management and record labels and people, producers looking after them. and actually they're not qualified to do that. Again, with Caroline, where we needed intervention and it to be taken seriously and professional because we weren't qualified to handle that. And I think with mental health,

it's left on friends and family and employers, really. Whereas with physical health, you know, we wouldn't be expected if there was an injury to stitch it up. it would, you know, even something small goes to a professional. Whereas with mental health, it's left to unqualified people every day. And especially in the industry like this, because that information then becomes public information, which is damaging to people's careers and to the show

and to everybody involved in the show. And so it's all kept under wraps. And then those people become really vulnerable. Yes, yes. Now, you just mentioned Caroline, Caroline Flack. of so you met Caroline, I believe, at X Factor. Is that where you bet? No, I did already know her.

So we were like, we were both Camden Party Girls back then. So I did already know her and I would see her out and then, but then I would see her at work as well. And so there was always like a little nod and then, but I was doing Olly Mers and she worked with Olli Mers on Extra Factor and they worked together. And around that time we got really, really close friends. Okay. And like, you know, we were going through the same stuff personally.

We were trying to have a career in this industry so busy all the time. And then that makes your whole relationship fall apart. And the same thing with men. And we were the same age. And so we just ended up attached to each other. All right. Fair enough. Fair enough.

So now X Factor is where you met this small group called One Direction. Yes. Yeah. So when One Direction comes off of X Factor, they're already. huge, right? And I said a little group very facetiously, right? Because they go on to sell 70 million plus albums, like massive, one of the best-selling pop groups of all time. So they leave X Factor, they're huge. You're working now, you've worked with lots of different, in particular, you're only working with men. Is that correct? I ended up specializing in men, yeah. Okay. So how is

it that you begin working with one direction? So, I was actually pregnant when I met them. And so I wanted boys. And they were really like nurturing with me. And I felt like they would just look after me. And I just wanted to work with them. I didn't realize at the time how big they would be. I actually thought it would be an easier gig.

And one of the big female acts where it's sort of hard of work, you've got to carry a lot more kit around for one of the girls or whatever. So I just thought they're cool. They're really easy going. They're nice to me. I'm going to stick with that and they just got bigger and bigger and bigger and bigger.

Wow. Did you have anyone assisting you or was it only you working for One Direction? So, no, I just worked for them on my own but later on in the tour, maybe four years later, Louis from One Direction, his younger sister, her mum called me up and was like, you know, she hasn't got into Sixth Form

and she wants to do what you do. So she's coming to be your assistant and I didn't really have much say. But she ended up being my assistant and actually she was like a little grafter and she ended up teaching me so much because the world of social media was taking over the beauty industry

and she was 16 so she knew all of that. And I just wouldn't have been across the social media world like I was so early on if it wasn't for her. And she taught me a lot that ended up making me secure in my career even after One Direction had finished because I ended up going into that outside of things because of her. Wow, look at that. This is Lottie.

Yes. Okay. All right. So now let's talk about this tour that you think you're going on this little tour with this band that probably won't become huge. Yeah. So I just had a baby and they'd said, you know, what about if you bring her because the boys really want you? And we can do this and some logistic discussions.

And actually never really came home for five years from that. It just kept going and more would get booked in because it was going so well. And it just spiraled into what it turned into. And I was committed. I was in it with them. What their diary was my diary. I would never say I can't be there because they can't do that

and the commitment was there then they committed to me, I committed to them and that was it. Hey there, real quick. If you're enjoying this conversation, take a second to hit subscribe and tap the bell icon. It's a small click that makes a big difference.

Thank you. All right. I think what's so interesting is you had a very intimate look at one of the most successful bands as they climb the charts. So what did you notice about how they changed as their notoriety grew?

I think that when people become more successful, they do naturally become a lot more, they keep their circle closer. And we sort of had five circles, really, on our tour. And I think that, it just became really difficult for them to go after what they wanted because there was kind of this bigger picture going on that was so successful. They had to all really not make it about them,

but they all had things that they wanted to achieve. And I think with that gig specifically, there just had to be an end point because it wasn't sustainable because there were five human beings. with five, you know, life goals and things that they want. Even people on the team, we were being offered these opportunities because it was so successful that we couldn't take. You know, they were being offered movies.

They were being offered all of these things. And so to keep touring as a group wasn't really possible if they wanted to achieve anything, what they wanted to achieve, outside of that. So, I mean, I would love them to come back together. and do something. I hope that they do because I think that's actually

even if they've gone on to do amazing things, I think now when you look back at what they were doing, that was what was cool. Yes. And that was why all those fans are there because it was really cool. But then they've gone off to do all of the things that they want to do.

And so have we and everybody who is part of it. Yeah. But it makes sense in that as the whole enterprise became more successful, everyone's getting opportunity. Yeah. Right, as a result of that. Yeah.

When you think back to the highs and lows, right, what were some of the greatest highs of traveling with the band throughout the world with your daughter? What were some of those greatest highs for you? I can never think of anything specific, and that is because it's such a blur, really. Even just how it would be with some of the hotels and the crowds of fans that were waiting all the time

and it sort of meant we couldn't really do much. It was, it was, you know, we would kind of, me and Lottie would kind of try and sneak out and get to like a Zara or a Starbucks or something to try and get out of the hotel. But really, we were waiting for the time off to be able to just go on our holiday or things like that because the time on tour was,

quite hard work to do anything fun. Yes. We were, they were going on like the biggest shows in the world and we were on a private jet every day and all of that. But really that becomes quite, if that just becomes normal life and not that exciting after, you know,

my mum used to come out to help me with the baby. She'd just be like video in like the police convoy and like the jet and like video and Harry what he's doing. I'm like, stop filming him. And she's like so exciting. And it becomes a bit of an eye roll, really, when you're doing it. You're doing it? Because you're just doing your job.

So what stands out most are the sea of fans. Yeah, the sea of fans and like the people, you know, they would be like Barack Obama there or like. Yeah, everyone. Anyone you could think of. I remember we saw Eminem at something and his daughter was there and they would just be like everyone you could think. think of would have kids that wanted to come and see one direction wherever we were in the

world. You know, I always find an interesting when you see someone like a Barack Obama, for example. I would imagine it was his daughters that wanted to come see one direction. Yeah. So, Sasha and Malia. So you think, okay, here's Barack Obama. At that time, was he president of the United States? He's president of the United States.

Comes to see this group, right, that you're working with. What does that teach you or show you about humanity? Just that were all the same So you talked about the sea of fans I would imagine that fans did some pretty wild things To get to the boys What were some of those You know they would be just

Like transit vans full of girls Along the motorway And they've opened the side thing And they're trying to touch the car And we're all driving And it's really really dangerous Oh my gosh Do they break into the hotel

hotels? They would always be in the hotels, yeah, because they would just book rooms. So really, they were, you know, because they were young, they would generally do as they were told. So if they were in the swimming pool or the gym and we would go in the gym, if security would say you need to get out for now, they would do as they were told. Okay. Whereas some of the older people that would come and there was a quite, there were a few elderly fans that would come everywhere. They sort of don't get moved on as much. Interesting.

But actually, it was, I would find that more threatening. I didn't understand that as much as the younger fans of why they were there again when they were in the last hotel and now you're in this. Oh, wow. So they would just book throughout the whole tour and just stay with you all. Yeah. And they would have a lot of information and some of them were like elderly. Do you think the guys felt safe all the time?

No. Yeah, I would have meant because I would have meant not whatsoever, you know, with that. So when you look back at styles, hairstyles, you know, out, well, makeup in particular, but makeup and hairstyles, are there any that you are particularly proud of? So the one that went really viral that I love was a, it wasn't an accident, but did you ever see the film Crybaby, Johnny Depp? Oh my gosh, yes. Yeah, it was sick. Yeah. And I was doing Zane's hair and he had this like big quiff and I flipped this little bit down.

Do you remember he had like one round of hair? Yes. And he kept pushing it back as if it was wrong. And I was like, that's supposed to be down there. Like leave it. It's really cool. It's like, what? And I was like, no, no, no, it's really cool.

Like just get down the carpet with that flop down like that. And that's like, that went really, really viral. And a lot of boys that I knew from like London were texting me. Like, I want that strand of hair. Like, and I still see it now sometimes. I still see people do that. And that was my, that was my favorite hair. All right.

I love it. I love it. See, look at that. And then isn't it interesting how you can do something like that? And then it becomes a trend. Yeah. Yeah, that's cool. Yeah, that's pretty cool.

It's pretty cool. With all the boys, you know, unfortunately, we've lost one. Are you still in touch with the others? Yeah, so especially with last year what happened, we all got to speak. But it's like old friends and other colleagues that I've worked with over the years. You don't want to come together because of these things and you just do. And it's, you know, we were like a family. You know, I feel like a lot of the boys had a lot of tragedy in their families as well.

and it's almost like something happens to people who have something amazing happen in their life as if to be like, we need to balance this out because it's not fair or something, I don't know. Yeah. You know, the time, I cannot believe it, it's almost a year that Liam has passed. But when you think now, when you reflect back

and you look at his life and his legacy and your relationship with him, what does it all mean to you? I do wish that I'd kept in touch with him, more because he would always reach out and try and chat and he was always quite lost and everyone always worried about him and yeah it reminded me of the Caroline situation as well like Liam when he was in one direction was really well protected yeah the boys would go and do an interview and it would get edited to make them look good that's how TV interviews for

pop bands worked. And since then, social media has become ruthless. What people want to watch, unfortunately, has turned so toxic. And everyone forgets that there's a human being when they're sharing this stuff. You know, he was an empathetic person. If he was ever reaching out to me, it was about Lux and my family and my relationship and how I was on a deeper level. level and, you know, I think the past few years of his career, you know, I'm not surprised he was struggling.

And again, people would say who's looking after him? Right. Well, you know, his friends, his girlfriend, his parents and a whole lot of people not qualified to look after mental health. And probably not many people who are because they don't really exist. That set up, any sort of structure for that doesn't really exist. No. You know, when you just mentioned the industry is so savage, you know, that's a term or phrase

that I've heard time and time again with almost all of our guests. But how would you qualify that? You know, like when you think about the industry being savage in particular in Liam's case, what does that mean exactly to you? For example, they'll write a story. and they're responsible for they control people's minds who are reading it, you know, so that their narrative with Caroline, if they would write a positive story about her, she would feel confident to go out and her social media comments would improve

and start being a lot nicer because the tabloid articles were positive and it really feeds into how people would be treating her, even if we were in, you know, in Topshop or whatever. And then when they were negative, when the articles were negative, you know, whatever they started portraying her to be towards the end, she would be scared to leave the house because people would start, people would go for her because what they write there goes into the whole nation's heads. Right, right.

And then these people are generally, you know, Not weak, because they certainly aren't weak, but, you know, people who might not be able to cope with that. Yes. And it shouldn't have to. And unfortunately, it's a part of being in the public eye. And there's not really any sort of regulation to protect them from it. And so they just become very, very vulnerable. And their mental health spiraling is spiraling.

And there's not really anybody who can help it. Yes. And then, too, you know, you just mentioned some. something that I think is very important that everyone should take a moment and think about and reflect on is that you mentioned, especially with the One Direction case, is that when they were in an interview, it was edited a certain way to make them look good, right? So these bands, but also if you're part of a television show, et cetera, you're kind of wrapped. You have a PR team, a communications team, a management team that kind of wraps around you. so that you will look good so that the audience will like you and the audience will want to see more of you. Yeah. So that that entity can make more money.

Yeah. In essence, right? Yeah. But the moment that you start to go off on your own or post things on your own without the confirmation of this entity, then you're more susceptible to these negative comments. Right. And the rise of one direction came with the really the popularity of the Internet. or I'm sorry, the popularity of social media.

Yeah. And just as social media became popular, that's also, once it did start to become popular is really where you saw the beginning of the trolls, the beginning of this enormous amount of hate that's come from social media, the keyboard warriors, in essence. So I would imagine this is part of what you're saying with regard to the savageness of the industry, the role that media, traditional media and social media plays. Yep. Yeah.

Paul's about to show you a presentation he made in Adobe Express, so you better be nice. You might not know this, but I am the proud co-owner of the mighty Sutton United Football Club, and this year I had the honor of designing our away kit. First things first, Sutton Amber, black, the crest, the fonts, locked in with our sponsor Adobe Express's brand kit. I was presenting to the board, and the story I wanted to tell was that we're modern, we're sleep. Yes, we were founded in 1898, but we're still a club that belongs in 2025. I wanted everyone from a 10-year-old to a 90-year-old in the stands to say, I want that.

All over Sutton United Script pattern. Mono crest, amber trim, I obsessed over the collar. Okay, Paul, are you ready? Yes, yes! Yes! Look at that. Look at them. That is it.

That is it. Yes. Got a pitch to make. Adobe Express is the quick, easy and free app to create anything, like this presentation. Let me ask you something. When was the last time you really thought about how you love? Not who, but how? Most of us don't.

We're moving fast, doing life, hoping love just shows up and sticks. But that's not how real connection works. So I've created something different. It's called Love Better. and I'm taking it on tour. A live experience for anyone who wants to build deeper, more meaningful connection.

We'll unpack the lessons from the couples you've seen me coach. I'll share stories I've never told on camera and you'll walk away with tools you could use right away. This isn't a show you just sit back and watch. It's a night of honesty, insight, music, and connection designed to make you walk away with something real. Come solo, bring a partner, bring your crew, Everyone's welcome.

But seats are limited and they will go. Tickets are on sale right now at livenation.co. I can't wait to see you there. How many discounts does USAA auto insurance offer? Too many to stay here. Multi-vehicle discount. Safe driver discount. New vehicle discount. Storage discount. How many discounts will you stack up?

Tap the banner or visit usa.com slash auto discounts. Restrictions apply. We all have that dream trip. We've been wishing. we could go on. But too often life or usually price gets in the way. That's why Priceline is here to help you turn your dream trip into reality. With up to 60% off hotels and up to 50% off flights, you can book everything you need for your next adventure. Don't just dream about that next trip. Book it with Priceline. Download the Priseline app or visitpriceline.com and book your next

trip today. Go to your happy price. Priceline. Just a heads up, this conversation includes difficult topics including suicide we've included links in the episode description and please watch with care i came to the uk in 2018 right um and when i got here quite honestly lou i feel as if caroline was one of the biggest names in the uk yeah that's that's how it felt uh because she had had When did she start Love Island? I'm not sure she did about five years, I think. Okay. Because, okay, this is just my impression, is that, so I got here at that time,

Love Island must have been one of, if not the biggest show here. And she was presenting for Love Island. I felt like she was everywhere, you know, in the press. And from my impression is I always thought that she was. was beloved by the public. Yeah. You know, so that was my looking from the outside. I was like, wow, this Caroline Flagg.

She's a superstar here. How did you see your friend? She was your best friend, right? How, I mean, describe how you felt like you saw her, but how did she see herself right around that time? I think that she was so popular because she was very good at, you know, she was very good at putting across on TV that girl best mate character. And she did that on Love Island.

She did it on X Factor as well. She could connect with the contestants like your mate. And she did that on Love Island. and she would keep in touch with all the contestants and she was just really very, very real. And that's what I liked about her. She wasn't like a celebrity as what you would imagine. She was very real.

She would go to bed in her makeup and, you know, she was very open. I think, I don't know if it was to her detriment, but she would just post whatever on her Instagram. there was nothing really curated about it and she was controversial and sometimes she would then just let her boyfriend's arguments play out on there which probably did affect things for her when it came to commercial deals or whatever

but really she was very, very popular because she was so real and she was a really, really good friend even when she was going through the worst of the worst of it right at the end she was still really consider her and making sure she got my right oat milk when I came round and like, you know, thinking of me and she's, she, I think that just came across and that's why everyone loved her and then she, I think she looked relatable. I don't think she, she was beautiful, but I think she didn't have that overly glam look. She was, she was who she was,

she was really comfortable with who she was. And, you know, she had the most requested hairstyle in all the salons and everyone would just want her. Yeah, and that was just who, you know, everyone wanted her in their friend group. I think that's why she was, but we were lucky enough to have her in ours. Look at that. Look at that. Did you have anything to do with her hairstyle? I did her hair a couple of times, but I never wanted, I never really like working with friends.

I'd get involved a little bit with, you know, advice or whatever with her look or, you you know, when she's choosing, choosing outfits and things. But really, I think with girls especially, you need to be careful with that stuff. Yes, yes. So, you know, while matchmaking, my rule is I'll never matchmake a friend or family member. Yeah. Yeah, it's kind of the same thing. It's the same.

It's the profession. It's too stressful. It is. It is. It's too stressful. It's too much. So you two, right, were incredibly close. what do you believe was most misunderstood about Caroline?

I think most people loved her. Everyone has something to say about her because I think people are judgmental of real women and women on TV. And she would let it affect her too much. I think that people would assume that celebrities can just brush that off and most of them can't. and she just wasn't as confident as you would think that she was.

She was confident in a sense that she could walk into a room and tell a huge table of really important people, a story and have everyone falling on the floor laughing. And I think was kind of my first experience of anyone like that. And I'm not like that at all. But she, behind Clothes Do she wasn't confident at all and she would just read all her comments too much and let them affect her.

And I think, again, she didn't have that secure base with a relationship. She was quite tortured by men and the relationships that she chose. And I think if she was going home to a loving husband, I don't think it would have happened. Well, well. Because I think she would have been able to cope.

Okay. So the only one, who did she have? Who was her safe space? So she did have like a really nice group of friends and we're all still really close. And she had a really close friends in the industry that especially towards the end were really reaching out. Like everyone reached out and everyone with the best intentions reached out to her. And, you know, we were there consistent. she was never on her own or anything like that.

She actually moved in to an apartment around the corner from mine so that we were really close. And her sister and mum were a little bit up north. So between us and them, we were kind of all doing what we needed to do. But she had criminal proceedings. She had the press. She had a relationship breakdown, just all at once. Oh, exactly.

Can we talk about this? So what year is this? So this was 29. She died in 2020. So 2019 was like the beginning of COVID. Okay. Yeah. So 2018, I feel like Caroline Flack is on top of the world.

Yeah. And Love Island was huge. And she was doing a lot of big endorsement deals and things like that. And I think the fact that this happened at this point in her life as well made it more to lose. Okay. So then what happens between or what happens after 2018? So what happened was she had a huge blowout with her boyfriend where the police were involved and she ended up getting arrested. And I think from there everything she felt like she couldn't cope with the way the press portrayed her, the fact that she couldn't. see her boyfriend at the time because she had bail conditions.

She then lost her job and all her contracts. So she lost the job at Love Island? Yeah. Okay. Okay, I see. And so again, ITV were offering support and her management company were trying to get involved with support. But like I said before, I feel like there was so much stress.

mainly from her for things to not be public or get out. It was about making sure nobody knew what was going on. And I didn't realize this so specifically she was then, was she let go from Love Island and then all of the contracts that she had were all of them? Yeah, they'll essentially sort of say things are basically put on hold because you're in criminal proceedings. Okay, okay. So at this point for someone who's worked her entire life to get into the position that she was in to now have lost it all, what were, what did you believe was going on in her mind?

I felt a great sense of pressure on the trial that was upcoming and I could feel that that's what she couldn't face. I think of what was going to play out. She had to go into a court one day to do her plea. So she just had to say guilty or not guilty and then leave. But the prosecution started talking and went into a lot of information which then just created a whole lot of press stories from one line that they had

that made it sound really sensational. and that just made the whole thing worse just from going into court that one day and I could feel we needed to get her to that because not until after that would there be any sort of journey for her to heal? I see. But there was this really, really intense couple of months

that we needed to get her through, which was almost like babysitting. And I feel like where, She was attempting to enter life in that time, and there was a couple of attempts. There wasn't any professional help. So during the court proceedings, I can't imagine what the articles that are being written. So I'd imagine that at this point, Caroline doesn't want to go out in public at all. But is she reading, she's reading the comments still?

Yeah. Okay. Are people sending, I would imagine, hate-filled commentary? She would even be like she would read the comments on the mail online, like those awful comments, like she would read it all. And I could feel that a lot of people who would come in the room would be like, stop reading that, stop looking at your phone as kind of advice, which would almost make her push them people away because she would. She would need to just sit on her phone and just read it and obsess over it and not want to hear it. So it was about kind of, okay, she's doing that and she's going to read it all.

And then trying to manage that from there was impossible. So a guardian analysis during this time, a guardian analysis showed that one newspaper published 99 articles mentioning Caroline Flack in the six months before her death. 99 articles. Just, so it was just article after article after article. And she's reading the comments. Well, and as well, the way that they write articles, you know,

they can use language that says one thing and they can use language that says something else next to a picture and they can basically make it so what they want. and, you know, an article with a picture with a lot of blood on it, which was hers because she was self-harming, but written with language that basically describes an attempted murder scene. You know, it's kind of, that's what the article basically said,

even though they're really clever and they write it so that they're, using language that suggests that with the picture. But really, that's what she's dealing with. Yes. Yeah. So this is in December, after she was charged with assaulting her partner, Louis Burton, Caroline received twice as many negative headlines as positive. So the trend then shifts from positive to negative headlines,

and she's consuming it all. How do you find out that she attempted? I was actually out on a date and my friend who was staying with her just called me to come to the hotel and so I just attended to her. But I was attending to her pretty much every day around this time and so both of them I attended once I'd realised what happened. And I think that both of those attempts were very much. much like this is how bad it is and somebody needs to do something. But what anybody could do, I don't know. That's the thing.

And I think that, to be honest, I think that a lot of people in criminal proceedings probably feel like that because it's really scary to face that. I haven't ever been in civil litigation, but even that makes you feel a little bit like you're going to lose everything and you're getting all of this correspondence that makes you feel like you're in the wrong. Yes.

And you just can't, normal people just can't fight that. And so I think for her, it all playing out publicly was just too much. She just couldn't face the day. I think that she could have dealt with the punishment had it been private. But not public. Mm-hmm.

Not public. And just that, you know, she was pleading not guilty and so they couldn't give her a caution or anything like that. They kind of had to do that. Otherwise, if she just said guilty in the beginning, but then she needed to admit something she didn't want to

or feel she was guilty of. So that's how this is our country's set up. That's how our justice system works. They need to figure it out. They need to hear evidence. And you've got to go through that. But most people, if you work, in an office or even if you worked at this production company,

you could probably go through all of that privately and no one that you have to face at work would know. Really, you could get it dealt with, whereas for people in the public eye, I suppose, it's just too much. And then the way it gets sensationalised, every little detail. Yes. So if you have done something that you might be ashamed of

of or being a human in an argument, you know, then it plays out for the world plays out for the world what and and i'm trying to figure out if the right word is responsibility but to be honest with you i don't know what the right word is but what responsibility do you believe that you and everyone in her circle has for her life because to your point you know that you've made with uh previously is that you're not a psychologist, you're not a psychiatrist, you're not trained in mental health, you're a best friend who loves her best friend. So what are you to do? What did you feel like at that time? What did you feel like you were supposed to do? I'm always very, in this situation,

think keeping somebody clear-headed, so not drinking and things like that. I was trying to keep her in that headspace and I think choosing to come to my house over maybe somebody else in her circle was her making a good decision and a safe decision on that respect because I have an alcohol free house and I often find people who struggle with that side of things come to me when they're trying to make a responsible decision and so I think that's she wanted to do that so that was good but for me it was about you know I was really trying to reach out and especially where there were any professionals there

whether it was like paramedics when she did attempt or any psychiatrist that some management had organised or whatever trying to I almost wanted them to take her because I felt like I wasn't handling it and I wasn't qualified to deal with it

but if she's not willing, that's actually not really a thing. They won't. Especially where she was, I don't think she was in denial, how most of being denial, I think she was denying everything to the professionals because she was so worried what would get out. So sometimes she wouldn't even want to give them her real name because she would think it would just go to. straight to the press because they just get their stories however they get them.

And so she wasn't, there was no truth to anyone professional coming in. Or even for me to be able to say she's trying to do this, she's done this now, this amount of times. That would actually anger her because she didn't want them to have the whole picture, because then the whole picture could get into the public to men. Yeah. Wow, so when the paramedics were coming to treat her. It was all played down. So they weren't going to take her.

I see. Goodness. What I find really frustrating is and she had a couple of physical injuries because from the night where she was self-harming and, you know, the amount they tried to push professional services on an injury she had on her finger, you know, was annoying her.

were trying to turn and put the hotel and stitch a finger up and all of this and she just didn't care she would just like leave me alone she wanted help for what was going on for her which isn't the same yes and and i've i've always found you know if someone has a terminal illness or a really scary illness like cancer or whatever they can go into a hospital and they get offered hundreds of thousands of pounds worth of treatment because without that it's fatal whereas many mental health, there's nothing. There's just absolutely nothing to help with it. And they don't really know what to do.

And one of the nurses had actually ticked on Caroline's form, thoughts of self-harm and asked her, and she said none, and she ticked none. But she was bandaging up her arm from self-harm, you know? And the same with the paramedics. The forms had said she was completely fine and just ticking the boxes and nothing is escalated

when it comes to people attempting they just sort of a deemed high risk but then nothing else and I think and I think that's kind of the issue that we have is that if it's not a physical illness it's not really recognised as an illness

yes professional people did see her and a couple of times I had, you know, it's just a bit of get through the night, can you? You know, one of them was a bit of babysitting for you tonight and then you can get back to your door tomorrow. And that was kind of it with a bit of an eye roll. And that's kind of why I want to talk about this because the services that do exist, which is what I'm working on, are very, very underfunded.

You were, from what I understand, you were the last person to see Caroline alive. Do you remember that moment? Yeah, so the night before she had attempted, and so the paramedics had sort of given me a big talk to get her through the night. And I always felt like I needed to get her through the night, and then in the day I could go home to my daughter, and she'd be all right in the day. I was never that worried in the daytime, so I'd get too panicky in the night to leave her.

So that morning, I was with another one of our friends and we left her and she wasn't in a good way. But yeah, we went home. My parents had come with my sister's kids and was like, come on, have a day with the kids because you've got your own life. And, you know, she's not going to do anything that kind of, I think with suicide as well, a lot of people kind of call their bluff, don't they? They give it that one where it's, if she wanted to, she would do it. She's not. She's just doing, you know. So my parents had come and said, come on, come home. We're going to have a day with the kids.

And Caroline's sister was going to come to see her. So that was all planned. And when her sister couldn't get in the flight, I just got panicky again. And I just couldn't sort of stay away. I didn't think she would have actually done it. But I was worried that she had. And I was worried that her sister was.

was there on her own. And so in the end, my dad sort of, come on, we'll go and see if she's all right. And then, but we're coming back here and you're having a day with the kids, you know, like, like that. And so, so in that time, it was when, was when she actually did it, yeah. So prior to her sister arriving. Well, the door was locked, so she just, she just couldn't get in. And then from what I understand, you also discovered. Mm-hmm.

Her body. Mm-hmm. Me and my dad went to see Joe just to, thinking we were going to just check she was okay, and then leave her with Joe. And then we had to get a key because we just couldn't get in. I had to get in touch with the landlord and get a key, so me and Joe were kind of sat there chatting for a bit

before we could get in, still not thinking. that's what she's done. What's the first thought that it comes over your mind when you realize that she's taken her life? What was really apparent for me, you know, when you're watching a really scary film and there's something really scary behind you and you feel like something behind you

and you're like this, it's really like something heavy, like chasing you or something. It's really hard to explain it. It's like an out-of-body experience, really. and yeah I was just screaming, panicking and glad my dad was there this time for him to deal with

what needed dealing with because you have to deal with the practicalities of what's going on whilst you're feeling such intense immersion and panic and everyone texting. Is she alright if you spoke to her? She's right, if you spoke to her? Even a land lady. Are you, Enish, you all right?

Because I had to say, we're really worried about Caroline, and we need a key. And have you got on, is she all right? Just let me know she's all right. And everybody doing those texts, and you just don't know what to say. And then trying to comfort her sister who was with us. Yes. Yes. Do you feel like you were ever able to properly grieve Caroline's death?

No, because I think suicides are really hard. death for people around to grieve for a start because it's it's filled with so many emotions and I think suicide is contagious. One suicide creates a hundred more people's really susceptible to suicide because of the trauma from it and it's it's just not a case of being sad I lost her as a friend. I don't feel like I had any capacity to just be really sad and miss her ever really because I feel like we've dealt with so much and then obviously the press off the back of them what she did do um but it was just such a

like as well when I say about suicide being contagious you know it doesn't create an environment where like a lot of death brings a lot of people together. It actually what I find is it makes a lot of people really angry and want to blame and separate instead of scoop each other up and makes people feel shame and guilt about their role in that person's life. And that's what it brings a lot more than say an illness that led to a death would bring. So it just creates such a hostile environment rather than space where people can grieve the person they love.

Yes, yes. You know, one beautiful aspect, I would say, that's come since, is the hashtag be kind, you know, going viral, making reference to one of Caroline's final Instagram posts where she wrote in a world where you can be anything, be kind. And what I notice is that there's probably not one day that goes by without me seeing someone use that reference. Yeah. That's incredible.

Yeah. And I think as well, like she was so clever with that because obviously she had such a negative side of social media that she was receiving. But there's a really positive side of social media as well. and we do talk about mental health more because of social media. You know, marginalised groups can have a voice on social media now and they just weren't heard before because there was no platform for them to speak. They were completely ignored. You know, I feel like that post, she went,

I'm going to flip this on its head because this is toxic and actually, and I think she really pioneered quite a lot of that movement where people spoke about being kind and it's really simple. You can be anything in the world. Just do that first and foremost. And I feel like she had, I don't know if she had a bit of a marketing brain on her,

but she just flipped the whole thing on its head and posted that out. And then, you know, it was the sort of ultimate, the ultimate FU, I think. Yes. Yes, yes. A bit surreal, you know, that she posted that. I think she just wanted to say, like, I'm hurting and this is hurting me.

Like, why is it not stopping? I don't think anyone was really listening. You were listening. Yeah, I think that the people close to her were listening 100%. And behind closed doors, she was great even the day before. she was having a laugh and we were doing a photo shoot and it was Valentine's Day so she was thinking about her boyfriend and I was going on about mine and it was it's quite normal yes yeah and it was it was February 14th so that day being Valentine's Day you think there was

there was something about it was heightened and we would always spend like Valentine's Day we'd spent Christmas Day together because we were like 40 and single. So we thought that was so hard for us and we needed each other like that. And so that's why I was there really. Okay. Okay. What about what you want the world to know about the experience that you went through with Caroline in that last chapter of her life? I think everybody likes to talk through what they're going through.

And I think people are quite scared to ask a probing question because if we're very British and we don't do that and we keep it all surface level. And actually, you know, especially like when you work with people and you've got time on your own with them and to sort of ask them about something. something that's maybe going on for them, you realize very quickly they need to talk about it and you just need to give them a bit of space to do that. I'm volunteering with this charity at the

minute, which is they're really revolutionising suicide prevention and they have a six-month program, which is really, really successful, which is why I've got involved with them because there's just nothing out there. And then it's forever support as well. They've been around 30 years and they've put about 700 people through this program and not one of reattempted. It's incredible. And it's really, really clever. It's DBT therapy, do you know it?

Okay, yes. So it's a course of DBT therapy over six months, but alongside a really good community charity, so you become basically support, lifelong support. And they also offer a program for their support. so their mom or their partner and that person in their life because I needed support to be the support and I'm you know I was getting therapy myself

and private therapy and paying for it but a lot of people don't have that and so they get involved with that as well which is what really inspired me because I've never heard that before where they can look at the whole picture and that's why it actually stops people attempting. And DBT therapy is, you know, they're not doing reflective therapy or talking

therapy or going through their trauma with anybody. They're not doing that. There's no time for that. They don't have, the charity doesn't have the capacity for that. They're just learning skills to regulate their own emotions and distress tolerance, things like that, and acceptance and skills that we all need. And, really struggle with, I think, things that we should be taught at school, if you ask me, way more important than a lot of the stuff that they teach. I'm completely with you. You know, to learn how to emotionally regulate is a hundred times more important than trigonometry.

Exactly. You know, but are we taught that in schools? Absolutely not. It's so old-fashioned. Yeah, yeah. I'm with you. I'm with you. And so this charity, you mentioned the name, but I want to make sure that we, we

Body and soul. Body and soul. Okay. I just want to make a bit of noise for that charity because actually the way it works is it makes sense. It's really simple. It's they need lifelong support, not just support. Momentarily.

In the crisis. Yes, yeah. We'll help you make that noise. Thank you. I think, yeah, we'll definitely help you make that noise. Thank you. You know, you got it. You know, there's one area also that I'd like to talk about

and it's connected to what you mentioned around. When you have a suicide, you have those who are, who have loved the person who's past, begin to point the fingers and blame. So in the research, something that was shocking, and I don't know if this is a rumor, so you can clear this up if it is, but that Caroline's mother, Christine, that there was a falling out between you and her as it relates to Caroline. Caroline and the care, if you will, for Caroline in the last few days. Yep. What actually happened between you two? Yeah, so my sister and I are really close with Judy, her twin sister. I actually saw her at Glastonbury.

And hopefully we'll stay in touch forever. Obviously, we were together on that day, and she knows who we are and where we are. and I think what's really hard with parents, it does cause conflict because it's the worst case scenario for anybody for that's happened to your child and all you're going to do is think whose fault was it, which I understand. And I think a lot of, a lot of fingers get pointed. at partners. That's happened a few times that I've known about as well. And for me, where I sat in the Caroline situation was, I know what happened. I was there. I know what I'm comfortable

with. I personally just don't blame anybody and I panic about blame because it creates, again, another vulnerable person who has to take that on their shoulders and the trauma of that for the rest of their lives, especially publicly. And so without going into anything private, I personally have just tried my best to stay away from any sort of conversations about who was in the wrong or whatever. and I think that in this situation, people kind of come together and do that

as a way of trying to fight it and deal with it, I suppose, and as part of the grief process. Yes. But I had a relationship with everybody in that situation, which became impossible, really. Fair, fair.

Have you spoken with Christine, who's Caroline's mother? have you spoken with Christine since Caroline's passing? No. No. So there's one more area that I'd love to talk to you about. And then anything else that you want to talk about. And that is, you could probably guess it.

Can you guess it? Andy. Oh, yeah, my boyfriend. We could talk about Andy. Because you're football, no? Oh, yes. So you own Sutton. Absolutely.

So what league are you? Oh my gosh Well, because we're Dagny and Redbridge now So Andy's just invested Oh really? Yeah So we're National League Oh we're National South

We're below you Oh my gosh Yeah I'm looking at this And he's playing Yeah he's playing He's playing He's player and investor

Which is actually the One of the first Yes In Europe I tell you what And can I say this about Andy Can I brag on Andy a little bit Because I thought this was the case

But I didn't know this was the case is that your boyfriend, Andy, in 2011, he became the most expensive British footballer at the time when he was bought by Liverpool from Newcastle for a measly 35 million pounds. Yeah, how good is that? Oh, man, come on, Andy. We met a really nice time in both our lives. I think we're both really in the same place. He's got teenage kids.

I've got a teenage daughter. And he's got some little ones as well. And we just really like look at, he has the same outlook as me. And I've never met a lover like that. I've got friends who were just on the same page. But I've never had a boyfriend like that. And I just found him really refreshing. And I didn't think that he would be like he is.

So do you believe that we will see a Lou marriage? A Lou Andy marriage. I would really like to marry him, yes. So we'll see, but he is still married. He's still, oh my gosh, he's still married. Yeah. And yeah, and I hope that's not insensitive as well. But we've had to try and take it slow.

And we were really in love. And the tabloids again, he brings a lot of tabloid drama, that man. They are obsessed with him. Yes. Everything, everything he does. You know what I find so interesting about you, Lou, is that you have lived this life that has been filled with the highest profile people like in the world. Literally. You know, when I was doing research, I'd see you interviewing Kendall Jenner maybe.

Or Harry Stiles. Like you with all of these people. But yet you have remained like just super chill. I'm quite private. but with social media so I've got a lot of followers but really you can control that it's not until the tabloid press

get involved you lose control I've been spoken to by my agent about shows like celebs go dating and that kind of thing which would maybe put me in a celebrity category if I wanted to go that way with my profile and probably make more money

and that kind of thing or go to different different kind of things and I've never done it as much as I probably would have gone on maths because it's my favourite programme. But obsessed. Oh, my goodness. Yeah.

Oh, my goodness. I don't need to now. But there was a point where I was like, I'd actually quite enjoy that experiment, I think. But I've never gone down that road. How would you compare the negative articles, say, on Andy versus the negative articles, say, on Caroline? Now that I know him, a lot of it is really unfair on him, too. which does disprove what I'm saying. I think that with Caroline and things like,

things like Meghan Markle, for example, I find it so frustrating because, you know, they're talking about a man's behaviour with Megamarkal but blaming the woman. And it's, and it just is still going on like that, even after what happened to, you know, their mother and what happened to her, they just still get away with doing it.

Yeah. And with Megan, you're referring to which man? Harry. Oh, you're saying, yeah. Yeah, I mean, I love Harry and I think that what he's done is support his wife. But they're sort of trying to attack him for leaving the Royals and abandoning the Royals, but blame her. I see. And I've just find that crazy.

Yeah. There's, you know, there's, there is a double standard in every aspect of life. Like, it's just baked into society. But I am, I'm optimistic on the future and where we're going. I don't know if we'll get there in my lifetime, you know. Yeah. But I think that we'll get there. You know, I truly do.

Can I ask you just one question of curiosity? you've met some incredible people in your life. Yeah. Who has pleasantly surprised you? Like a big star that you met and you thought, I don't know how this is going to go

and they just they just pleasantly surprised you. We were once in the dressing room and there was like a couple of kids and I spent all day with this woman and she was so nice. And then she left. and I was just like, how nice was she?

And I was like, doesn't she look like Cindy Crawford? And Harry was like, are you joking? And I was like, what? He was like, that was Cindy Crawford. And I'm not normally that ditsy either, but I just was chatting to her as if she was just a normal person. Obviously she is a normal person, but I didn't realize it was Cindy Crawford. I thought she was just a really pretty woman.

Yes. And she was just so nice and normal. And I was munning and like just being like that and she was doing the same. And I think it was because I didn't know who she was, then I was probably, she was probably enjoying me. Yes. And like her kids were there and stuff and mine was there. And that was me being really stupid.

But I remember thinking she was really nice. Yeah. I love that. I love that for you too. Because you would otherwise, if you knew it was her, you would have been weird, yeah? All right, so what celebrity now do you believe has the best hairstyle? Woman for my inspiration has always been Zoe Kravitz. And now Harry's going out with Zoe Kravitz.

And I just think they're so fucking cool. Aren't they? I can't see him like part pictures of them. And I'm like, they are cool. That's pretty cool. That's pretty much as cool as it gets. Yeah. It doesn't get any cooler.

So then, final question. Okay. If you think back through your life, you think about all of the incredible conversations you've had, which conversation was the most memorable? Who was it with? What did you learn? So when I first went into body and soul,

to tie it back to body and soul, I was doing a tour and they were showing me all a different part. and they have all different community aspects of the charity. So they work with children who are adopted and families that have adopted. They work with immigrants. They work with people affected by HIV. And then also they have the suicide prevention.

So there's all a different aspect of the charity. And one of the guys that worked there, he gave me this hand-drawn picture of a bison. And he was asking me if I wanted it and it's like a sort of a symbol for the, the charity and I said yeah it's lovely thank you thank you and you know they're all trying to give me things and whatever and he just said basically byton's one of the only animals which and like their natural instinct when a storm's coming and animals and humans will run away from the storm and the storm keeps coming and it kind of a

slowly get to you eventually over time whereas a bison they run into the storm and they're through it in five seconds and that's why the bison is part of the is symbolic for

their charity because it's just about just face it head on and I remember someone talking to me about facing things a long time ago and I can't even remember who it is, but I do feel like I try and just face things and deal with it. And I can curb. And quite a lot of people who are spiraling and not curping is because they're running away or avoiding. Even though it's really scary and you naturally run away, I think that that's out with me.

Be a bison. I've got my little bison next to my bird, yeah. Be a bison. Yeah. Yeah, I love it. I love it. You know, Lou, what I've loved most about this conversation is I'm walking away with so many new points of direction for my life. Like be a bison.

Yeah. People who are suffering from depression and worry about the past. And people suffering from anxiety worry about the past. people suffering from anxiety worry about the future. And it's those that can live in the present. And it's just about being able to do that. Yes. It takes you away from the anxiety and the depression.

Yes. And I found that really helpful as well. Yes. No, it's good. It's so good. It's so good. And when you have these little nuggets, these little tips, these are the things that save our lives,

literally save our lives. And I feel like this is your work. and I'm excited to see what the next chapter of your life looks like because I could see you now doubling down on your advocacy and literally your work will save lives. So I applaud all the work that you're doing. There's anything that I can do, you know, further to assist. Never hesitate to reach out.

And I need you and Andy to come cheer on the Mighty Sutton United too. Oh yeah, we'd love to. Yeah. We should do one of those because I love to see, I love to see him at one of our matches Yeah, we'd love to. Yeah, done. And when we get promoted,

will we play in you? Or maybe we'll be promoted ourselves. Or you get relegated? Conversation over. Conversation over. Thank you very much. You know, there's one last thing. You know, we like to give surprises and gifts.

Oh, do you? Yes. I like gifts. You like a gift? So I have a gift that I like to share with you. you. Okay, you ready for it? Is it? Yeah. If you could take a look at that and give that a read for us.

Out loud, please. There's Lou Ties, there were millions of followers, and Lou who is one D's hairdresser, who is Caroline's friend, and then there's Lou, our friend, Don's sister. For many years, while Caroline was juggling, Lou dropped everything to be there. She gave all her time, her home, her loyalty, and her energy until the very end. She's the person people go to when life has unraveled and needs somewhere to go. who feels unwaveringly safe.

Over the years I've lost count of the number of people who have entered up at Luz, friends in turmoil, people who need a break from life to talk to all night long, she has quietly carried people through their darkest moments. By being the cleverest and nicest person in the room, whether she's never met you before or she's your family, she will hold court on equality, fairness and justice with a softness and wisdom that leaves everyone listening.

She unknowingly guides the people in her life, young and old, helping them make sense of the world and give some confidence and perspective. When I asked for help with body and soul, I think I meant some Instagram past, but she ended up training up in the therapy to work hands-on with the young people and be part of the team running the program. Program. Sidekick of dreams, we all need a loo. Is that from Emma? That is from someone closer.

Well, I want to say closer. It's from... sister. Oh, different. Some. Don't because, oh, Christ, she's sat in there. We're twins, but we're never nice to each other. So she's never said anything nice to me, so that's really nice.

But really, how does that feel to know that that's exactly how she feels about you? I know that she does, and I know that she sees me. But we just don't say it. We're just a bit British like that. Yeah, that's nice. Thank you. I think that was a beautiful letter. Yeah.

And I think what she was saying in it is, I see you, I appreciate you and I love you. You had to make me cry. I did the whole thing without crying. I now challenge you to say, I love you. She knows, but yeah, it's unspoken. Andy actually told me this because we're both from up north in England. And the northerners are so different to the southerners. I don't know if you realize this.

Yes. But like as characters are so different. And he says that Southerners will be nice to your face but talk around your back. Whereas northerners are horrible to your face but really nice behind you back. And they just can't do it face to face. But really as soon as you're not there, they're absolutely love you. Brilliant person but they can't say it to the face. Yes.

Yes. And I'm like that too. Okay. Do you accept my challenge? Yes, thank you. All right, all right, done. I appreciate it. Thank you promise.

Yes, I appreciate that. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Lou Teesdale. Lou is the first person I've heard talk about the rise of one direction in tandem with the rise of social media and how they were one of the first groups that could break a market without going to the market. I thought just from a nerdy music perspective, that was pretty interesting.

From listening to Lou's perspective, it's hard to understand how she could have done anything differently. I thought Lou was very respectful for Caroline's family. And you could see it's because of the love that she has for Caroline in particular. I thought that there were many moments where Lou gave some great instruction to all of us in terms of what we could do, whether it is on just generally life when she talked about being the bison, but also with regard to our loved ones, and that is asking probing questions, checking in, how are you? How are you really? Don't give me the everything's fine. How are you really? I'm here for you, holding space. I think that's something that we can all take, and that will help every relationship we have is to ask more probing questions of the people we love.