We Need To Talk with Paul C. Brunson - Louie Spence Reveals Life On Tour With The Spice Girls

Episode Date: January 13, 2026

Dancer and TV personality Louie Spence opens up in one of his most honest and emotionally revealing interviews to date. From growing up in a working -class household where love was present but rarely shown, to the sacrifices his parents made to support his talent, Louie reflects on the early experiences that shaped his independence, anxiety and drive to perform. Louie speaks candidly about living with panic attacks for most of his life, how anxiety followed him through fame and success, and the private battles behind his larger-than-life public persona. He opens up about touring the world with the Spice Girls, sudden celebrity, family addiction, and the grief of losing his mother - sharing moments he’s never spoken about publicly before. Now, Louie reflects on what it’s taken to slow down, sit with difficult emotions, and keep going - even on the days when the fight feels internal. Louie shares: ◽ Growing up feeling loved, but rarely shown affection ◽ The sacrifices his parents made - and the pressure that came with it ◽ Living with panic attacks and anxiety from a young age ◽ What life on tour with the Spice Girls was really like ◽ How fame amplified his anxiety rather than fixed it ◽ The impact of addiction inside his family ◽ Losing his mum and processing grief years later ◽ Why the most important conversations he’s had are with himself Louie Spence, We Need To Talk Support charities:  MIND: https://g2ul0.app.link/gbuRaxjM3Nb  Follow me here: https://www.instagram.com/needtotalk https://www.tiktok.com/@weneedtotalkpod  Support Louie Instagram https://www.instagram.com/louiespence/ Watch Louie's YouTube series Louie Spence In Care: https://youtu.be/i8jbDXpzJE8 Subscribe to the channel: https://www.youtube.com/@LouieSpenceInCare (00:00) Intro (01:36) Louis’ Working-Class Upbringing and His Relationship With His Parents (10:41) Louis’ Experience of the 1980s and Article 28 (15:28) Gay Life Today vs the 1980s (17:41) The Beginnings of Louis’ West End Career (18:59) Louis’ Experience as a Backing Dancer for the Spice Girls (25:25) How Louis’ Anxiety Limits His Life (31:34) Where Louis Believes His Anxiety Comes From (36:30) How Louis Manages His Anxiety (41:14) Why Louis Started Working at Pineapple Dance Studios (42:49) The Pineapple Dance Studio TV Show and Louis’ Rise to Fame (43:58) Does Louis Know How Many TV Shows He’s Been On? (44:38) Is Louis’ TV Persona His True Personality? (45:33) Shopify Ad (46:36) Louis’ Experience on SAS: Who Dares Wins (53:50) Why Louis Left SAS (57:32) Louis’ Experience of His Mother’s Alcoholism and Her Passing (01:15:08) Most Memorable Conversation Sponsored by: Shopify: https://www.shopify.co.uk/needtotalk Sync ID: MB01OEKSZ3W7SYM Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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Dancing on ice, celebrity big brother, celebs on the farm. Anything with phleb on it, I was there. Just wheel out the gate with the high kick and the speech impediment. Get him on there. When I was young, on the council estate, it would have been my mum, convinced my dad to remortgage. So I could go to London to a stage school.

We had a great child as every, but I was having anxiety. I remember I couldn't go to bed until my parents were home. Because I thought they were going to die. Then what would I do? I became famous. It was in 2010. It was really intense. I imagine being in the street where people are,

oh my God, I love you. Don't do the split for lifting your leg up. But inside, you're feeling it. I'm going to pass out and something's going to happen. My mum was an alcoholic. She had damaged the liver. We went to the hospital. She's got this mask on, the oxygen, they put it up.

She's a bit in and out of consciousness. And then, I swear to God, she sat bolt up bright, took the mask off and said within 20 seconds, she was dead. It's really hard because you think, She chose that over my dad, over me, over my siblings. I'm just sad. There's so many joyous things that have happened since she passed.

I mean, I've never spoken about this anywhere before. But... Hey, right before I go in, I just want to say this, we absolutely love shooting this podcast and we need your help. So hit subscribe. That's how you can help us. Louis Spence, we need to talk. Fabulous. Let's go.

All right, let's do it. Now, what I find interesting about your childhood is most parents sacrifice. for their children, but it feels as if your parents made additional sacrifices for you. Yeah, 100%. Would you say that as the case? Yeah, 100%. How so? Well, I mean, we were from a very working-class family in a council house on a council estate,

which was fabulous, where I was always dancing around and flipping and, you know, I was always very active. And I went to a dance school there in Essex. and then when I was 12 the dance teacher said you know he needs to go somewhere else he needs I can't do no more with him because you were so talented really

well I had I had a natural ability you know it was kind of very natural to me so I suppose yeah you could call it a talent so I auditioned for a stage school in London which was really expensive like going to a private school and there wasn't a grant system really

or, you know, we tried to get a scholarship or a grant, but it just wasn't there. And, you know, my parents had just bought their council house, this scheme coming in the 80s with Margaret Thatcher, where you had a chance to buy your houses, you know, at quite a low price. Anyway, my parents took this up. Unbeknown to them, I was going to want to go to this school. And we didn't have the money. We just did not have the money.

It was impossible. and I think my mum, it would have been my mum, convinced my dad to get to remortgage. So already he had taken on this huge debt in them days. You know, it was, you know, lots, it was new to everybody because when you come from that background, you didn't have the opportunity to get on the property ladder, but because what Margaret Thatcher did,

bought up all the council houses, that's why there's none left anymore. But anyway, it was a great scheme at the time. So he'd already taken on a huge debt. I mean, my parents worked really hard, both of them. My mum would work cleaning up the school. She'd work nights in a chicken factory, packing chicken pies. But my mum was a nightmare as well because my mum would just spend money.

So her money, she'd sort of spend it and lie to my dad and we'd have beans on toast for a week. Do you know what I mean? And pretend that she had bought the shopping when she hadn't. She'd bought a new dress or she'd bought a new sofa or so. So she was terrible, but, you know, I'm very much like that. But I have a question just on that. Is that so at a young age, you were aware of this? Oh, God, yeah.

Absolutely. I mean, I was like, I was my mum's best friend. I was her cover. I was a cover story. I would say that, you know, we'd gone to do something. I was her backup. You know, when my dad would say, oh, well, you know, especially when I was at school. Oh, I had to buy Louis something for school. She didn't at all. She got a new pair of shoes. But she, the thing is, you see, my mum was, my, my mum and dad got married at 17. They'd been together since I 11. My mum had three kids by the age of 19, a nervous breakdown after each one. She was on uppers and downers since she was 11 because her mom had mental breakdowns. And my mum as a child suffered really bad. What was anxiety then? Okay. But probably not diagnosed. No, absolutely not.

So my nan who was on uppers and downers in them days, that's what the doctor gave you, it's uppers and down. So something to bring you up, something to bring you down. She started to giving them to my mom at 11. Goodness. So my mom was already addicted. So after each one of the birth, My mum had a nervous breakdown

and she would just go on the uppers and downers. So all through her pregnancy, she was on uppers and downers, my mum would literally pass out through anxiety. So many things that I see in me and my siblings traits. And I know they say with these things, sometimes is it nature, is it nurture? I think it's got to be genetic.

I think part of it is, you know, nurture the way that we were brought up. But anyway, so my mum would treat herself because that's what made her happy. That was her reward. She needed that because the anxiety and the depression was so bad at times that that would give her a little pick-up. Okay. So now I'm older. I understand why she did it.

Obviously, my dad knew what she suffered with, but he was so focused on just paying the bills, looking after three kids and everything. So I was her cover. My dad put himself an incredible debt, which even once I'd left stage school, he was still paying. So I put my dad under immense pressure when I was a child, which I didn't know. And also, you know, the whole family structure. I've got three other siblings. You know, I've got three sisters who, you know, may want to go on school trips.

Exactly. All these kind of things, which no one went. No one went on the skiing trips. There was no money for them. Was the family aware? that all the money in essence was going to pay for your schooling? I don't think they did because they also had what they wanted. Because like I say, my mum would always find a way.

This is the thing, and me and my sisters talk about this. We were loved, but we were never shown love. So we had everything we wanted and needed. My parents worked every hour God sent. We had a beautiful home. Like on the council estate, we had one of the best homes. You know, we had like new windows and like, you know, bifold, not bifolding doors, like French windows at the back, you know, weird.

And my dad had a bit of brick wall around the front on the council estate, you know, we're the only one with a brick wall with pillars, loved it. You know, so we had all of this. And we were, there's nothing we wanted for. And there's nothing we couldn't speak to my parents about, whether it be sex, drugs, whatever. You know, my parents were very young parents. And but we were never shown love.

Okay. And what do you mean in particular? We were never, we were never cuddled. There was no affection. There was no physical affection. I see. There was no. And also there was no,

it didn't really matter what we did. Like when I went to stay school, then I was in the West End when I was 13 or 14 in Bugsley Malone. My parents were proud, of course. But it wasn't anything, because they had to get on with their life. They had to get on with paying the bills, looking after my three sisters, going to work. So yeah, it was great, whereas you'd have these showbiz parents who would be there every day at the stage, you know, with their kids and that. And not that I wanted it because I didn't.

I didn't want that. I was very independent. I didn't care whether I didn't care whether they come to see me in it or not. I didn't care. Do they ever say, I love you? No, not when we were children. Now wearing your children. So when you reflect back now, right, and you look at Louis as a child,

do you feel as if you missed being shown love? I think subconsciously I do. Like I say, don't get me wrong, we were loved immensely. But, you know, like sometimes when I'd watch films on TV and I'd see parents cuddling their children or just if I'm out and I'll see a dad or a mum cuddling their children and we never had that and I just sit there and I look at it I think

God I wonder how that must feel I wonder how it must feel whereas my husband's Spanish very Latino family he's constantly cuddling his nieces and nephews His sisters are arm in arm They cuddle they kiss You know and he's very much like that

And for him it's really difficult Living with me Apart from all of my other, you know, things that go on in my life and the way I am with anxiety and depression, you know, that alone, you know, we went to, we went to this shop once and you put some money, it was an Anne Summer shop, and you put money in a machine and you get this thing out what you're like and little things. Mine come out, it said cold fish. And he's never forgot that. And so, you know, that's what he calls me, a cold fish. Because he's very affectionate,

very loving, just the warmest, most incredible. incredible person, kind, he's just an incredible person. And he's very, loves to cuddle. And I'm like a cold fish. I don't have the ability sometimes. It's like, he's cuddle me and I actually physically can't, I can't do that. Can't hold him. I just can't.

Physical embrace. And it's the same with my sisters as well. Yeah. My sister, we don't cuddle me, my sisters don't cuddle. It's learned. Yeah. It's definitely learned. Yeah.

Can I ask you a question here? because you're talking about a time, because we're talking about the 80s. The 80s. Right. So I just recently went to go see a musical at the Royal Court. It was called After the Act. So it was about Section 28 that I was completely unaware of here.

And you grew up during Section 28. Now, for anyone who doesn't know Section 28, let me just read this now because it, it actually blew me away that this was just 2003 when the legislation was finally over here in the UK. So Section 28 was legislation that sought to prohibit the promotion of homosexuality. So this is a prime minister Margaret Thatcher, right? And she said at the time, children who need to be taught, I'm sorry, children who need to be taught to respect traditional moral values are being taught that this. they have an inalienable right to be gay.

Now, this was such a mind-blowing concept for me because what I realized, what Section 28 did is it, in effect, halted any discussion of gay, being gay within the school system. And it sought to punish those and ostracize those. So what it did is it kept people from coming out, kept people from discussing it and it caused heartbreak

and it actually caused death, right? Many people taking their lives. So you were growing up in this time, right, in the UK. So what was your experience? Well, I think what you just said for hit the nail on the head, I think for the people who were out of my age then, like in my early 20s,

it didn't affect us as much because we were already out and celebrating who we were, that's it. You're not putting us back anywhere. I think like you say for the educational system, for people what weren't and we're learning this through the education system or conversation in the house. Yes. We're not coming. So that is the pressure on them pushing them down. Whereas we were already, well, we're not going back in. You know, we're out. So I was in a really safe environment when I was young on the council estate. I never felt

bullied or when I went to my schools. I was an environment of. That was, yeah. though you were safe? I never experienced it. And even, you know, even on the streets of London, you know, I was always lived in central London. So like Zone 1, you know, and even walking through the streets, I was always in central London, like around the West End, around like Covent Garden, Compton Street.

So it was a safe environment and I never felt targeted. You know, I must, you know, I know how many people are and how traumatic it is for them. But for me personally, and I never tamed it down. Never felt that way. So it was a worry and there was a lot of fight for that within the community. But also we had a really big issue of HIV-A. Yes.

There was people dying. You'd see them one week and the next week they were gone. It was so rapid. It was so severe. it sort of halted your youth, your, I mean, you know, people, because of my personality and the way I am and everything, people, you know, presumed, a lot of people presumed that I was a right slag that I took loads of drugs. One, I never took drugs because I was the person what would die. My anxiety wouldn't let me take them. I had very few sexual partners I mean literally I was in a relationship for seven years

and I could count on one hand the amount of people I had sexual relations with and that wasn't intimate sexual relations because the fear of HIV AIDS was so strong and having seen so many people die and I mean we're talking young, fit, healthy men these people who are like Adonis and then a few months later, you would see them skeletal, and then a few would say, you hear, they're dead. You know, it was like, it was so frightening.

It's like that was a bigger issue for me, I think, and how I was dealing with the community then at that time, because, you know, lots of people I knew died or became very ill. So, yeah, Section 28 was an awful thing. But in saying that, where are we today? Where are we today? I'm not a political gay at all. I'm not.

So if you were to compare, Louis, the 80s to today, do you feel like that we have advanced, stayed the same or gone back with regard to gay rights? Well, I think, as it stands out, we're definitely advanced because we can marry, we can have children. So, you know, there's all these things. The awareness of HIV AIDS is so much broader.

People have so much more knowledge of it. Are people trying to take us back? Absolutely. I'm not into politics. I'm as knowledgeable as most everyday people when you watch the news and see the things that Trump wants to do with, you know, immigrants, with gays,

with any minority, you know. Obviously, all the things he says, I don't support. You know, they're just awful. So they're trying to take us backwards. So I can understand why the young gays now are far more militant. But like I say, I just feel with the younger generation, with Instagram and Twitter,

TikTok and so much information and misinformation. Yes, and disinformation. And disinformation. That's what I meant. Sometimes I feel as though they're losing the joy of being gay. And being gay, we are a community who are very joyous and celebratory. And we have fun. We take, you know, we say things to each other in our community that we, you couldn't say,

but we can say them to each other. Like within your community of like, you know, if you're with a group of, of your black friends, you may say things that if a white person was to say or you're in a situation, it wouldn't be acceptable. But when you're in that invite, you can take the piss out of each other and say these things. I'm not going to give examples, but there's some really dark places, dark, humorous places, me and my friends go to, you know, when we're together. But I just think sometimes we need to have other ways. Of educating, it sounds like you're saying. Yeah. So like I say, I'm lost in my own community

sometimes. I think to even help us all understand how you got to this place, let's even unpack your career, right? Because I think that's, that lived experience has shaped who you are today. So you mentioned that you were, once you got out of school, West End, you hit West End. I got a job in the original cast of Miss Saigon. It was, you know, we didn't know it's going to be such a massive show. And that was incredible because I went from school with like, you know, you know, you know, it's not, you know, young theatre people, you know, we're all like thinking we're fabulous, into massive West End hit in the centre of London in Jury Lane, in this beautiful theatre, surrounded by these incredible theatrical people

who were singers, dancers, actors, the humour, the camaraderie, just the joy of what they love doing. It's a crime that there's so many talented people. that just haven't had that exposure or that luck because they would piss over most of the people who are on TV who are comedians, singers, you know, all of the...

But they just haven't got the break. They just haven't had that moment. I was surrounded by those people and I learned so much from them. And then after that, I went and did lots of commercial stuff. When I say commercials, like with pop bands, like, take that, E-17. These are groups in England.

England. And what were you doing with those groups? Back in dancer. Back in dance. Okay. And then I did the Spice Girls World Tour. We have to talk about that. Which was incredible. So then at that age or in that period of your life, was that your goal? Your goal was, okay, I want to be a backing dancer or was it anything else? No. I mean, I was very fortunate that I could go from doing a West End show to doing a commercial show. Because sometimes there's dancers who are just really sort of more West End based, as in tap, modern ballet, you know, it's more of that, you know, where they couldn't really sort of get down and, you know, they didn't have the, you know, the club dirt, that kind of thing.

They didn't have the thrust. Yeah, they didn't have that. They just looked a bit ballerina going, you know, with a straight back. Whereas they couldn't, you know, whereas I was fortunate, I could do both. I come from a very musical family, as in we always had song music on in the house. My mum loved to dance. My mum was a great dancer, like a club dance. kind of thing.

And in the 60s, she, you know, she would, like she would do, the music come on, the things she would do was, she was a great dancer.

Anyway, so we always had music in our house. So we were, all my family loved music, we love to dance and, you know, really get down, you know.

So you were versatile. Yeah, you could go, exactly. So it was never that I thought, that's what I want to do. Obviously, a job like the Spice Girls

World Tour comes up. Every dancer in the land wants to do it because, if you think about, we always had American artists coming to England with dancers. whether it be Madonna, Janet Jackson, Michael Jackson.

And they would bring their dances from... Of course. And for the dancers, they would be like, oh, my God, they're amazing, you know. But how many British artists went to America with dancers? So a dance act. Yes, you had the Beatles in the 60s. I can't think of any other British groups, pop groups, or solo artists that went there with dancers.

You can think there are lots of Americans that come here. It didn't happen. That's true. So that particular... was once in a generational thing. That's, you know, even now, well, now, I can't even think of, oh, Juleepa maybe. Yes.

Now she has dancers. So, Jue Lepa, sort of broke America. So this particular tour, and I have some stats on this, and this, you probably know this better than me, but this particular tour, so this was the 1998 Spice World Tour. 2.1 million people saw this tour. The Spice World Tour was the band's first,

large-scale multi-continent tour. It covered Europe and North America with 97 shows all the way from February to September 1998. And it was the highest earning concert tour by a female group. So this was bigger than big.

So you had to audition, I would imagine, for this. And once you found out that you had gotten it, what was the thought? Well, it was amazing because also my best friend got it. The most joyous thing about it was they treated us

like when I say you're a back in dancer you were a back in dancer it's very rarely you got treated really well not because the artist thought because the artists had lots to do they were doing press and you know for other groups they can have time to see if you're okay whatever do you know what I mean it wasn't their fault

but sometimes the management and the they didn't really give a shit about you you know you would just just get on and do it and the incredible thing as well was they were in control of this tour them five girls they were the bosses Okay.

They were the bosses. It was them, you know. So for that reason, I don't know. That's why we stayed in five-star hotels. We got paid really well, which you didn't have time to spend because you're always on tour. You ate in the venues. You stayed in these hotels, bed and breakfasts included. They were wonderful to us, considering you've never, you know, up to that point,

I'd never seen anything like it, the madness around them, but I'd never seen five people not have a minute. I swear to God, they would be having their makeup done doing interviews. They would be, there'd always be somebody wanting something from them. It was exhausting to watch. They were, they were flying. If we were in Paris, say, doing a show, we'd have that day to rest.

They'd be on a private jet going to London's doing, view, then going to Belgium and then come back and do the show. I mean, those girls worked incredibly, incredibly hard and they were so, they were so generous with us dancers. They treated us so well. And I think it's one of the, what is the, that and another job is the best thing I've ever done. And also, you know, through it, I gained a really good friend in Emma, in Baby Spice.

We had a very similar upbringing. in. There was like, I think there's eight years between us in age, but we had very very similar families as in closeness, the same kind of humour, and we became very close, and we still are to this day. You know, we, she, well, I mean, you know, I mean, yeah, she's just, she's just a very unique, incredible soul. She's a beautiful, beautiful person. And, yeah, when you look back on that tour, since it was so impactful for you, what's, what's, the moment of that tour, what is a moment, that you'll just replay in your mind

for and over and over again. There's so many of them, like, you know, chatting to Madonna, you know. Not bad. How was Madonna? She was fine, you know, she was just walking down the corridor going to see the girls said hello. Bumping into Prince, you know, when we're in Minneapolis, running away from Michael Jackson with Emma. Why'd you run away from Michael Jackson?

Because Emma has done. doesn't like big things like planes, the site of the planes, you don't like it, like, you know. And not the Michael Jackson on the side of the plane. But we were in a hotel in Germany and he was in the same hotel. And we, I think, if I remember, he was sort of a person like he had a mask on and did it. And she didn't like the look of it. So she fucking, we run. So we run away from Michael Jackson because like literally he was all, you know, masked up.

And she was like, we just ran. So yeah, so lots of, lots of, you know, lots of, I mean,

there's so many situations at that year of my life that were incredible. And, I got to see the world in style. Yes. I got to see the world in style. But in saying that,

I got to see the world, but I didn't see anything because I chose not to because of my anxieties. So I only felt, safe in the hotel room. I didn't know where I was going. I didn't know, you know, so my anxiety stopped me from, you know, going to clubs or, you know,

I did it if we went with the girls and it was safe and we were getting the car or the van, both, all of that. Yes. But yeah, I do look back on that and regret the fact that I didn't enjoy that experience, the stage side of it I did, but I didn't enjoy all these countries around the world because I was too anxious to, um, explore on my own. I wouldn't do it. Another thing as well, when you're on tour, you think you're going around the world.

Imagine me, you know, I was single. Imagine how many people you could sleep with. Not one. Not one. Not one. Not one. And I had had five-star hotel, room of our own. We didn't share. No. I was like, one, I was too, still, I was a bit insecure about myself, even though when I look back now, I look fucking amazing. You know, I literally had an eight-pack. I was like that, you know, I had an after. like two hard board eggs in an angstchief. You know, I was, I looked great, but I didn't have that confidence in myself. And also there was that whole, once again, HIV-AIDS thing.

I just, it just, you know, it just, it's, you know, that did, not ruin my sex life, but it stopped me from having casual sex. And now at the age I am now, I'm with my partner, we've been together 25 years, we've been married since 2007, like I say, the most wonderful person in the world. But I've actually said, you know, like, I never had that sexual freedom experiences of different partners. I never had it.

So... Do you regret having it? Yes, I do. Not for the fact that, you know, my husband is... My husband is gorgeous. I mean, believe me, everyone falls in love with him. I lucked out. But it's just...

There was such a... Like I say, there was such a stigma about sex when I was young. And that's part of my life that I can never get back. The youth, you know, the spontaneity. I can't get that back. It's too late.

I don't want to do that now. But it's definitely something I would have liked to have a lot more variety. I would like to have seen. But sexually, what do you think you have missed out on? Just sex. Just literally sex. Just casual sex.

Like when people like other gay friends of mine I mean maybe they went through a bit too much do you know what I mean I'm not talking I want to go a hundred like that but I mean maybe more than five or six and as a gay man that's almost like literally putting me in a monastery do you know what I mean so it's I think it's just not knowing it's that not knowing of what would that have been like

with someone like that or like say not loving them I don't, it's not about love. It would have just been about sex where my friends would say, oh God, you know, and I'd be like, I'd pulpitate for them thinking, oh my God, were you safe, did this? And, you know, and are you going to go and get tested? You know, straight away, I would be thinking, oh my God, what, what if they didn't and what if, you know, and so, no, I just won't do it. And so I didn't.

So, and now, you know, now the kids, they're just on prep. For them, they don't even know that experience because they can just take a tablet before they have sex and continue taking it. So instead of the people are on combination therapies to actually you know, sort of bring this virus right down so they're non-detectable and can't transmit, even if you're not HIV,

you can choose to go on prep where you can just take a tablet every day and go and have, I think it's like very, very high percentage of like 97%. You know, there's still a risk, I think. Yes. But so these kids now, for them, they don't have, it doesn't have that feeling.

So they can be more liberal. So because of my anxieties, which I suppose I was constantly, constantly battling all the way through my career to getting on a plane, to getting in a car with someone who drove that I didn't know, didn't feel safe, crowded spaces,

places that are too bright. Like I've never been to a concert. I've never been to a concert where I'm either not in the pit or been on the stage because I can't, Even now, and I'm a lot more, I'm so much better with my anxieties, that it's still something I choose.

I could, I could put myself through it. But there are some things, I suppose, what are still avoidance, that I choose not to. And I suppose it is me saying, I'm so much more advanced that I can actually do those things now. But really, I suppose deep down in the back of my head, I know that I know that I'm, I'm still avoiding. So the thing. Absolutely. You know, can we spend a moment on anxiety?

So I have a moment. I have a, it might be more. I have a very good friend of mine who literally sent me a message yesterday. And she just suffered. So she's in her 30s. She just suffered her first panic attack. And she's completely freaked out by this because she was driving. And that's where she suffered the panic.

panic attack and we were exchanging some messages and I told her I said this is interesting I'm getting ready to interview someone who has long suffered from anxiety but on top of that I have now interviewed multiple people Nadi Hussein Perry Edwards etc who have suffered not just anxiety and anxiety disorders but panic attacks and high level of anxiety and what I found is that it comes from this combination of things. It's part genetic, it's part circumstantial, it's part, you know, ever you're exercising, have you slept enough, etc. But when you think about the origin of your anxiety, where do you believe it's come from? I think it definitely is partly, it was nurtured from my mum. And looking back now to see the times, you know, all the time, you know, all the

she was anxious and having anxiety and her anxiety would then be put on us so we couldn't do things because it would make her anxious so she would stop us from doing things like I say we had a great child with every but there was certain things that you know we couldn't do because it'd be too much of a worry for her thinking that we were there or there

she couldn't cope with that and then I remember my mum used to go every Wednesday night to this club with her friends and I would wait until she literally as like an eight, nine year old child I remember waiting until she was home I couldn't sleep

I'd be at the window waiting for the lights of her friend had this car and it had square lights the headlights and I knew those headlights when they come down the road I couldn't go to bed until she was home

so there was them kind of things and how was that Louis because I thought she was going to die and I thought if she died, then what would I do? Because my world would end. So I was always frightened of her dying and my dad. I was always frightened whenever they went, whenever they went out anywhere,

I'd find they'd have a car crash. And this is at a young age of like seven and eight. You know, and it just continued, you know. So I always thought that they were going to die, that something was going to happen to them. And then, you know, then what would I do, you know? I think lots of kids experienced that. I don't know.

Maybe I'm saying that. I don't know. And then as I got older, my anxiety manifested in very physical anxiety. I would get the complete, you know, the body rush. I could feel my balls shrinking going inside me. So that's when I knew it was kicking in because the adrenaline would take my balls inside me. So that's when I knew it was really coming bad. Then I'd get the dry mouth, the tingly tongue.

And then I'd start to lose my eyes like that. Then I couldn't see. And then I couldn't breathe. and then I couldn't get my breath in like this. And then this is happening like this. Then I'm going to die. My heart's going 100 miles an hour. I can't see.

I'm dizzy. I've got numb fingers. I've got numb toes. I've got pins and needles in my tongue. You know, literally is this never going to end? It does end, you know. But the first one, like I say, for your friend, that is the worst one. Because then unless you're really strong, you're waiting for the next one.

Exactly. Then you're in the cycle. Exactly. You see, and my cycle, okay, my cycle has lasted from when I was eight until now. Apart from, I can tell you, the last six months I've been physically anxiety free, apart from one night about four weeks ago where I had the heart racing. But apart from that, the last six months have been really good. And this is how you know when you suffer with physical anxiety or anxiety,

because it's every day, it's every moment of your day. And I have a, I have this thing, it's like a heart monitor thing. You see it on TV. You put your fingers on it like this and it shows you an ECG. Okay. So I got that because I'd been to the heart specialist for the last 16 years, once a year, convinced, you know, never, even though, convinced there's got to be something wrong because I wake up at night,

literally or just before I go to sleep my heart would go to 140 150 beats and I have it on the I can show you I've got the thing and I showed it to the heart doctor so you imagine being a you know my resting heart rate is in between 55 and 65

so all of a sudden from nowhere my heart literally not even I get a little bit of a warning like I say I get this little little feeling the adrenaline is going around my body and then I'm like fuck it's here and they say you know just let it happen

just go through it just you know don't don't fight it you try not fucking fight him when you feel like you're going to die and your heart is going to burst out of your chest you can't breathe literally you're in a cold sweat right literally and

you're completely relaxed you're just about to go to sleep and then literally so what does someone do in particular what does my friend do so she's she's had this one she's now fearful it's going to happen again she's scared to drive right how have you been able to i haven't you haven't i haven't it's just part of my life it's just part of who i am i i manage it

and that's it i've had psychotherapy acupuncture um cranial osteopathy i've had everything and then i went on when i was 45 i think it was i went on prescription medication Because I got to a point where, apart from the physical anxiety, I suffer really bad depression, really dark. I mean, it's like when people say dark cloud, it really does feel like that. It's just like a darkness sweeps over you. It's just like you're in mud and everything around you. No, people can't get in. It's just a mist.

Like my husband would, and I would be like, I couldn't care if he was there. I couldn't care if he left me. I couldn't care if I was on my own and my, I just couldn't care. because I'm in such I'm in so deep in this hole I can't get out and I'm in my head in my body

I'm trying to get out I'm trying to get out of it and in my head I'm saying come on get out of it you can get out of it you've got out before get out of it but it's in my head

it's like there's two two people talking the one which is trying to be rational and the one what's got control anyway it got really bad when I was about 45 my mum had died in 2013 I became famous in 2010

it was really intense which was, you know, a whole other story. My life had completely changed financially. Imagine being some of anxiety, being well known, and that you're known for being really open and gay and camping, loving everybody, where you can't even get on a train, go through a tunnel, go to a concert, go into a supermarket, before that. So now imagine that you're in this environment.

Like I say, I go into a TV show, I'm fine, like here, this is my safe space now. I know I go out of here, I've got a car to get in, that gets me home. You know. Yes. So. But the unknown. So now imagine being in the street where people, oh my God, I love you. You go do the splits for lifting your leg up.

And you're trying to be, all right, darling. But inside, you're feeling it. It's going. You're like, I'm going to pass out. And something's going to happen. So then you're going to go now, girl. You know, I've got to go and do this. I'm going to spin off.

You know, and you've just got to run to a safe place. And I'd always not gone on medication because I always thought I could, I always thought I can beat this. I'm not. I was having a battle. I was always like, you're not going to get me. You know, I don't need medication. I'd see my mum on medication. I'd see my siblings on medication.

Anyway, I finally succumb to taking medication because I look back on it now, I look upon it as an intervention. That's what it was. It was either that or I don't know. Like I said, when people say you get to that point, you know, they are you, are you suicidal? I wasn't thinking about killing myself,

but I thought I'd be better off dead. So I wasn't thinking about killing my... I didn't, no plans, but I just thought I cannot live with this. Any longer like this. There's also that battle you have in the outside world, you know, and like, why, why, why, why can't I get through this? Because now I've got, you know, I own my own house, I've got money, I've got nice cars, I've got Rolex watches.

I've got nothing to worry about. All those things you think are the things like most people, their worries are financial mortgages, paying the bills, paying for the kids, so that's taken away. but it's still there. So all these things were taken away and it was still there. And then when I did take the medication,

I would say it resolved the place I was in because what it done, it gave me nothing, it gave me no emotion. I mean, I didn't cry much before, but unable to cry, no empathy, no emotion, didn't care, literally someone could have dropped dead there and I would have stepped over him. That could have been somebody in my family.

I'd have been, it's inconvenient. Okay, let's call the undertaker, get them buried, you know. Had no drive to do anything. Then I did nothing. I wanted to do nothing. So that was great because I had a rest from this constant, you know. Having to perform. Not that, but the constant anxiety.

Oh, okay. No, not just the, you know, living with that, it was constant. At that point, it was constant. It was just a constant churn. So it gave me, it gave me a break from that. this adds up. So, okay, so can we go back coming off of the tour, Spice World, this is massive. Yeah. You then, I would imagine, continue to... I went into cats for a year, magical Mr. Mustafaelis in the West End. Another huge win. Yeah. Then I decided, then I decided that was it. I can

no long, I'm too old to dance behind, back in, you know, be a backing dancer. I don't really want to do the West End anymore. I don't know what I want to do. I'd done everything I wanted in my dance career, in a sense. I didn't want to be one of those old dancers still trying to like, you know, hoof it with the 18 year olds. I was 28 at this point, 29. You could still go up, but I didn't want to. And that's when I went to start to work at Pineapple.

So I was in an environment that I loved, still surrounded by dance and the people I loved. You know, I didn't care what people thought that I'd been like a spice boy, you know, leaded a West End show in Cats. Mustafa is one of the sort of mate, had a big dance and everything. I didn't care. That didn't bother me at all. I'd never bothered what people thought.

But why would, it sounds like you should. saying that some people carried shame around that. Oh my God, yeah, absolutely. You're now behind the desk, taking people's money when they go in, whereas before you were on the stage with them, you were, you know, and now you're sort of, in their eyes,

some people wouldn't do that because they'd be like, people's going to think that, you know, I'm a failure. You know, I didn't really care what people thought because I had everything I wanted. And actually, it was a really safe space for me and I felt really good working there. And Pineapple was an esteemed...

Well, it's been going since 1978. I mean, it was like, you know, all the West End shows rehearsed there. Like I said, we had, like, you know, Madonna, Beyonce, you know, Spice. Everybody went and rehearsed there. It was a great place. It was a great place.

And I loved it. I absolutely loved it. Then they did the TV show, 2010. You know, it's going to be on Sky. I didn't have Sky. I was like, how many people watch Sky? You've got to pay for it. You know, it's not on 1, 2, 3, 4, or 5.

He's going to watch it. it don't care. Literally, they filmed us. It was no scripted. Absolutely not. We had a cameraman with each person who, like, there was me, the manager, there was Andrew, there was someone else.

They'd just follow it. And then they'd edit it all. They'd never asked to create a scenario, apart from we put dance routines in it, which were choreographed, obviously. But apart from that, everything was totally as it was, the people coming in, the camarader we had. And it became a hit.

It was. And then before I knew, I mean, it started in February 2010 and then in April I was on Jonathan Ross as a guest with Gwyneth Paltrow, who else was on it? I can't remember anyway. But like going through, I was like, what? You know, I found it funny, you know. And then it just went mad for three years.

10 through 13 just went mad. Louis, I was going through how many television shows you've been on. Do you know how many TV shows you've been on? No. You have no idea. Yeah. I was, okay, so this is, this is a, I'm literally scrolling because this is how long the list is.

So, okay, you were on Louis Spencer's show business, right? You were on this. Dancing on Ice. Yeah. Celebrity Big Brother. Yeah. The jump. Yeah.

Slebs on the farm. Anything with celeb on it, I was there. Just wheel out the game with the high kick and the speech impediment. Get him on there. It gives us five minutes of something. Anything with celebrity. I was there. You were on air, all of this.

Yeah. So when you think about that period, okay, do you feel like you had to play a role or were you doing you? No, I was being me. Look, there's the sides of me, like I've spoken about a lot here, the dark side, which I think I'm not the only person, lots of people suffer in silence, not in silence, but privately, you know, with, and especially in the industry we're in, that person you see pineapple and they show, 100% is me.

That's just another side of me. That's when I'm in that environment. Like when I was coming in here, chatting to the kids, I suppose that I am partly performing, but I like it because I can see them giggle or laugh or may say something a little bit uncomfortable. And I think, oh, yeah, I know that deep down you're going to go home and go, oh, you never guess what he said.

Yeah, and it makes me laugh inside because I can see I give him a little bit of joy. You are a performer at heart. There's no question about that. 100%. You know that feeling when you've just committed to starting something big and then it hits you. How am I going to pull this off? When I started my matchmaking business, I remember sitting at the kitchen counter one night

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Let's then talk about SAS, right? So SAS, because it literally is celebrity SAS. Exactly. So I thought it's got to be for me. It's got celebrity in it. I've done every other blood. Right. It is you.

It is you. So with Celebrity SAS, you departed what a lot of people thought was early. Yeah. Okay. So what was the reason why you departed early? Well, I'll tell you, I spent more time doing psych tests going into it. They're very diligent. I'll give them that, you know, at the channel and everything.

They make sure you're psychologically up for it. You know, I told them all about my history of the medication. I come off of it. And actually, I was feeling mentally really strong because I wasn't on medication. I was in control. I had emotion back. I had empathy back. Okay.

I had all that. And I was feeling, you know, six months. And I'm, I feel fine. You know, I'm really in control of this. So I thought, it'd be a good. great way to challenge my mental capacity. From what you've told me already, I mean, my God, I can imagine how challenging this would be to walk in.

And not being on medication. Not being on medication, the anxiety that you've suffered. You'd actually had been off TV for a few years as well. So this is, you're going back into something. So this is brand, not brand new, but this is new to you. Well, I mean, the thing is, I mean, I, you know, I'd done bits and pieces. of TV, very like, you know, a celebrity antiques road trip, you know, what, you know, but this is a big format show.

Yes. So, I mean, but I promise you, I promise you, the reason I chose it was I thought, right, I can do some mental challenges here. I went into this with not the intention of, I'm going to, you know, bring my profile up. You have your social media for that. Work on TV doesn't really pay you any money anymore. I get more money from doing things on social media, like commercials on social media, than I do from TV.

TV pay you such a low fee because it brings your profile up that then you may get these other things from it. And even on that note, do you feel like those fees have been going down over the years? Look, the bigger the pool, as in all of the shows that are there now,

Love Island, you know, Tawi was there, but all of these shows, you know, made in Chelsea. So you think the pool gets bigger and bigger and bigger and bigger and bigger. There's always somebody going to do it for less and less and less and less, you know. And all people care about now is literally how many people, even TV companies,

how many followers you have on Instagram or Twitter or TikTok, what's your reach? Anyway, so it wasn't for that reason. It was to see if I could get through these things. Got there, got all the uniform on, you know, get started. So then they line you up on this grim beach front in Wales somewhere. put the bags over our head, the black mask thing. And then, you know, I sort of put it like that.

And so I'm looking down like that. And I can see the feet coming. Because I thought, I'm not going to say, Lou, you're cheating. Lou, you're cheating. Obviously, and also a bit claustrophobic. So, you know, I knew when gone along there, pulled that one off, pulled that one off. Pulled that one off. Oh, my God, it's so awful.

And it's not that it was a fantasy or anything because it's not. But it just what reminds me off. So as soon as he ripped my mask off, I don't like that and I've always got lovely eyes really really blue eyes there and then he goes okay what's your name

all like this and I was like shit it's like gay porn so in my head I'm literally going I'm literally going in my head oh get down and give me five

you know I'm just literally you know I'm on Pornhub and I thought no don't I already had it in anyway and he said you know what are you and I just

and he said something and I said oh I'm too old for something or whatever. Anyway, do the first task. So that's, so that's in my head now. I'm like, shit, why is it in there? So the person, what is this? Sergeant Knight, the, the, the, the soldiers.

I don't know, the soldiers. The soldiers. The butch boys. So you're thinking, you're gay porn. That's, that's what you're thinking, okay. You know, and it wasn't, don't get me wrong, I wasn't fantasizing about it. It was just, it's such a typical gay porn scenario.

Soldiers in a barracks and, you know, and he's going to shout at you, and he's, you know. Yes. That's it. And I'm sure, like, in straight porn, they have a similar kind of thing. Anyway.

So then the first task we do, they're like, they say, right, you know, you've got to go on this platform, jump into the water. And I thought, oh, that's fine. I don't mind that. And I thought, well,

the bleeding action man that went before us, the soldier, he jumped in, swum, he didn't have no life jacket on. He didn't have no drag. So in my head, I'm thinking, well, it's dragging everyone. You can't go as fast as you can,

but you've got a life jacket on. It's keeping you buoyant. And you're fighting against the, he jumped in, like I say, the American one, really easy on the eye. Swimming like Flipper gets to the boat. I thought he had no drag. He had no jacket on. So I'm thinking, all right, darling, I understand health and safety.

I get it. I get it. So anyway, when it comes to me, I think, right, I know what I'm going to do. I'm going to get the tightest jacket I can get. So it's not bagging. So the water's not going to go through. So I don't have that drag. Okay.

And I'm an all right swimmer. You know, I love swimming. Anyway, so I jump him. I start to swim and I'm fine. I'm like, yeah, I've done this at the pool. Obviously didn't have the army outfit on and didn't have the boys chasing me in the boat and all that.

So I'm sitting there thinking, and literally, I'm thinking, shit, I can't breathe. And I swim further than this. You know, all right, I was in the sea and I thought I can't breathe. I swear to God, I promise you, I'm not making excuses. I could have got there to that boat.

I mean, I was about 50 centimetre to the way or a meter away from it. I had stopped breathing. It was literally, I was pushing my lungs up. As soon as I got on the boat, I went like that, and I could feel my lungs go like this. So me thinking I'm being clever, fucked it up. I see it. Anyway.

I see it. So anyway, I thought, all right, fine. That's fine. And then the next task we had to do, we had to go and save some people in a little hut thing. Give us a grenade and this thing and, you know, said, gave us a risk that this is guy you've got to save. Okay. Well, we had to run up a hill to get there. So I'm running up this hill.

and we've got Action Man, the American. I forgot his name. Brad Chad. I don't know. That's very American, is it, Brad Chad? Both of them. Whatever. Two others.

Anyway, he's running up there with this, you know, like I said, really peachy ass. And he's running up there and he's tight pants like this. And also, I'm thinking, you know, is it really necessary they wear that tight, lichre top and those trousers? Because I'm sure you wouldn't have those in the SAS. I'm sure there's Lycra in those, just in case they need to bend up and down quickly. So it doesn't rip. Anyway, so anyway, I'm running up this hill, and I'm knackers.

and I'm thinking, why am I so knack? I'm with Chloe, girlie did love on. Love the girl. Yeah, Burroughs. Yeah. So I'm running up, and she's in front of me as well, and I'm thinking, hold on. What's going on? Maybe it wasn't that jacket.

Maybe I'm just really unfit. I was unfit. I didn't think. You can do it. I thought, and I was really surprised with myself, I was like, oh, my God, this is bad. This is really bad. You can't even get up a bloody hill. You know, what's going on with you?

So in my mind I'm thinking, I'm not going to get through this. If I can't do this, and they made it very clear at the beginning that you're a group, this is a group thing, so you're a unit. If you need to go for a shit, you've got to wake someone up and they've got to come and sit outside where you drop the kids off. Do you know what I mean? Literally. And I thought, well, I'm going to be getting them all killed because I just feel physically,

and this is the beginning, I thought. They give us this thing, you're going to jails with this and then blow them up after. So we go running in there like that. I'm not, all right, darling. Right, don't worry about that. I'll get the door. Oh shit, the legs aren't quite as strong as they use it either.

Boom, bang the door, when we go in, so we're searching for this guy like this and then it's not him. It's not him, Chloe. Leave him. So we thought, right, leave him. It's not the guy of the picture. Go right, we find him, right?

In the meantime, there was someone else and then there was some girl somewhere. I'm like, go, get out, just get out. So she gets out and I bomb them. I think that shit, how fabulous are we? dot him, we've blown it up. Right. Well, as soon as I get out, they start

shouting at us, every life matters. You just blew up innocent people and she was, you know, pregnant or something. And I thought, oh, great. So now I've just killed two people in the pregnant woman. I thought they could have been terrorists. They were going to blow us up. I didn't hear them say every life matters. I mean, even if they're going to kill you, it matters. I just killed them all.

Right, right. I thought, well, maybe. And I thought, well, what with my, you know, lack of breath getting up the hill, obviously, you know, I'm going death and I've just killed three people in a pregnant one with a child. I thought this ain't for me. This ain't for me.

No. And also, I, with all the others what were on it, we sort of had this, we did meet and we all churned. Some of them were so enthusiastic and really, really wanted to do this. Now, don't get me wrong. I wanted to do it. Right. But like I say, partly, it's a job.

You know, there's part of that. And for every one of them, it's also a job and it's going to do things, whatever. and like I said, if I've been thinking in my profile, maybe I would have pushed through and thought, you know, do, do, do, do, listen, the last thing I'm thinking about is my profile, I'm thinking about me surviving.

And for me to survive, I made the right choice to leave. And I believe I maybe would have got to a place where I would have cut off and I don't care, fuck off, I'm not, you know. And I didn't want to get there and make them suffer as well because, you know, some of them, this was really their dream.

Like, you know, Lucy was so into it, Lucy Spragun, really, really into it, as was Adam, the guy from Love Island. Atollard. Yeah. Bimony. Bimony. You know, Bimony was, you know, and it made me realize something. I didn't have that, what they had for this job.

That's fair. All right, if you've made it this far, I know you're loving the conversation. Please, do me one small favor. Hit that bell icon, join our community. But, you know, hearing this, what I didn't realize is what had happened in your life preceding you joining SAS. And two places that I like to end with, right? And you mentioned, actually, you mentioned both of these people. But you mentioned your mother in there.

You mentioned your mother passing away. And I'd like to, if we could, just talk about how that impact. I mean, I've never spoken about this anywhere before. I mean, when my mum passed, like literally, about two weeks later, I was on Lorraine and she said, do you want to say anything? And I was like, absolutely not. No one, none of anyone's business. I'm not going to have people giving me sympathy because my mum's died.

You know, I don't want that. I don't need it. But, and I'm sure, I'm absolutely sure, like I say, I'm very close to my family, and I'm sure they won't mind saying the circumstances. I mean, my mum was an alcoholic. but she was a functioning alcoholic. My nan, her mum, died of alcoholism. My nan's twin sister, my great aunt, my mum's aunt, died of alcoholism.

My uncle, my mum's younger brother, just died of alcoholism. So, but my mum was always, when I was grown up, she was always glamorous. She was beautiful. I mean, she had a great body, you know, she was really glamorous. She was, you know, and I suppose a gay man, a gay boy. You know, when she used to go out, she'd wearing the ages, these tight tube dresses and beautiful, like Stiletto Hills. And my sister's sometimes, me, mum, you can't go out like that.

I bet on mum, you look fantastic. She just looked stunning. She looked beautiful. So my mum always struggled, I think, and this is where I think we, I get it from. I think she was always looking for something that wasn't there, happiness that wasn't there. Anyway, I was in London a lot. So I didn't really notice my mum's stuff. to drink. Because my mum when we were younger

was very military. She'd have two Picardis and Cokes. Wherever she went, that was the limit. Two Picardies and Cope and she'd have a packet of 10 number six, which were a packet of cigarettes. And that's all the cigarettes she would smoke. She wouldn't drink anymore because obviously if she's drunk anymore she might be sick. It might make her phalanxious.

You know, all of these things why I've never drunk, why I've never taken drugs, the control. Yes. So she only did what she was in control of. I didn't really know that she had been drinking as long as she had and as much as she was. So she had got to the point where

she needed alcohol to get through the day. So if she didn't, she'd wake up the morning, I didn't see that. I go home one day, like, you know, from London, I go, and I look at my mum and I think, she looks a little bit sallow, you know, a bit, you know, she's always got quite a nice tanner, but she just looked a bit sallow,

and I was like, I mean, look a little bit. You feel alright. You look a bit, you know, pasty, a bit. No, no, no, no, it's fun. Stay there, wake up the next day. Yellow. I said, there's something not right there. I hadn't put two and two together.

Right. I took her straight to the doctors. He suggested I take it to A&E. And then the doctor in the A&E took her behind this curtain and started to, um, uh, examiner. And I'm the other. side of the curtain and I can hear her go, oh, you're going to tend to there, do, da, da, and then he says, well, yeah, Mrs.

Spencer, well, you were told last year that if you didn't stop drinking, then, you know, she was told the year before she had to roast of the liver, right? And she didn't stop drinking. And then after that, they admitted to a hot hospital and I was doing pantomime and I got a phone call on the 2nd of December we were told that she had to roast of the liver she had damaged the liver part of the liver will never function again right this is not a shock to me because I was

but she should have about five years because she had damaged the liver and the liver in Norman can replenish itself but where it's that damaged it can't so for her age and what liver she has left the life's best and see not great not great but you know okay we can deal with this we go home

have tea about two hours later they tell us you have to come back up to the hospital now We're like, what? We've just left. We go to the hospital and they take it into a room. My dad and my sisters, we had no idea this was coming and said, do you want to resuscitate her? And we're like, what? You just told us two hours ago, she got five years.

You know, and now we've just gone home for two hours and come back and you're asking about resuscitating her. And I was like, my dad. was beside him. I mean, complete shock. You know, there was no sort of build-up to it. Anyway, I actually can't remember what was said. I think we said, no, we want a resuscitate her.

I think we were so shocked. Anyway, we went back into the room. When we went back into the room at this time, she now had this full mask over her face, like a snorkel mask, but completely over her face, with this tube coming out on an oxymachine, and you can see the levels of oxygen going like this. So anyway, we stay there.

they've given a morphine so she's a bit in and out of consciousness and then they she tries to take the mask off of her face so without this mask she hasn't got oxygen so she's going to die

right because this mask you know thinking you know she leaves it on then she'd get a bit better and then you know but if she takes it off now the oxygen's so low she will die so then

I'm pulling this mask back on her face pushing it on her face calling for the nurse, call it, no one came, right? No one came. We were calling for them. No one came. Anyway, you've got to think, so she's been totally on morphing, like, totally out of it, sort of like this, da-da-da-da.

I swear to God, she sat bolt-up, right, took the mask off and said, I've had enough. And it's like, mum, I said, you know, if you take this mask off, you're not going to be able to breathe. She said, I've had enough. As clear, as clear, and like I say this whole time she's been like this on the, and you know, the oxygen, you're going to bolt upright. That's it. She laid down within 20 seconds, 30 seconds. Literally said, that's it, I've had enough.

She went like this and there's this horrible gurgling sound. It's like a gurgle. And then just, boom, she was dead. And I was very matter of fact as in she was dead I looked at her and I said no longer than two or three minutes

I said right then come and let's go got everyone out my dad said my dad as well so what do we do then oh you need to get a birth right next guy's up there you know birth

death certificate and like I say it didn't really hit me till about three or four years after then I realised she wasn't there and that could I have done something, could any of it done something. But, you know, the thing is when people die of an

addiction, it's really hard because you think, you know, she chose that over my dad, over me, over my siblings. Now, even though we weren't shown physical love, I know how much my parents love us and I know how much my mum loved all of us through the sacrifice and everything she's done for us. It's still hard to battle with the fact that, you know, to not, to not blame them for choosing that over you. I think, like I say, I always said, my mum is her own person. That was her choice. You know, and I try and separate it from being my mum to being a human being,

and I could make those mistakes anyone could and people have. But it's really hard if she had chose, you know, you hear about people what have got through it. why didn't she? You know, like I say, my mum was always searching for something that wasn't there, a happiness. I think that she found happiness in alcohol because it made her forget. It made her, you know,

and then it got to that point of no return. So she had already gone so far knowing that she had damaged herself that far. So what's the point of living another however many, I don't know. I don't know. And, you know, like for my dad, you know, I feel for him.

And my siblings, but I don't blame her. You know, I really, really, I promise you, I don't. I'm not angry with her. I'm just sad that, you know, there's so many joyous things that have happened since she passed. You know, one is thank you for sharing that story. Yeah. Because I know you haven't shared that story. I haven't never, only because, like, of my family, you know.

But like I say, we're a strong family. And I know that my siblings or my dad are not ashamed of my mum. That's one thing I'm not ashamed of it. I'm not ashamed that she was an alcoholic. I'm not. You know, she was an incredible mum. She was a wonderful, wonderful person. And, you know, I am part of her as my siblings are.

I am the person I am because of her. There was greatness in her and there was love and joy in her. And that's what I'll remember, you know. So, and there's many people in families who have bigger struggles or going through the same or people going through that. And maybe this conversation would make them look before they've been given that five years left or they can have a whole life. Yes. You know, you can have a whole life left. So, you know, I don't know.

It's their choice. I don't know. My mum wasn't strong enough. I don't know. I don't know. Yeah. You know, I, I, I mean, There's so many questions I have, but just that story alone tells me so much about you,

you know, and how resilient you are and actually how much of a pillar you have not just been, I think, to the community. And I say that there's many communities, but in particular to your family. How, you know, in those moments, I always see that there's someone who kind of steps up because everyone else is in this fog. I've had various family members and friends pass away. And oftentimes there's that. one person that

really steps up and takes responsibility for everyone, regardless of age. And it sounds like you were that person. Definitely me. Yeah, for your family. Well, then, if I can ask you the final question, but one last before the final that I just have to throw out there is what I found to be interesting in that dialogue that we just had

is I could see that you're still processing your mother's passing. So when you You said it took you three to four years To begin to process that Where are you now in the processing? I really don't know I don't think I don't think I don't think I don't know

I don't think I'll ever get over it It's the part of you that has died You know it's a I think the bit Like I say that I do accept and I don't blame her for It's just I don't know I wish it could have been stronger or was I too late?

I was way too late. That's something that plays on my mind. I was in, like I say, I was in London, you know, doing all my stuff. I'd come back to Essex where they were. So I wasn't seeing it. I was just seeing... So you hold some of the blame yourself?

Not blame. I'm not going to be the victim and say, oh, God, it's my fault. You know, it was her choice. It was her fault. But, I don't know. Maybe. I say maybe I could have

I couldn't I don't know in my head there's always that thought of maybe if it had been but if I'd spotted that and then what if I'd gone to the doctor sooner and what if then I would have just taken her into a bloody you know put her in somewhere where she couldn't get out

and she would have to come off the alcohol and you know all of this kind of stuff but it's not that's not how it happened and I can't change that but there's still that you know there's still a little battle about that Like only yesterday I was just literally really randomly

and I haven't done it for a long time. I have pictures of on the, you know, on a cyboard like this. And I picked them up and one was, you know, about 20 years ago and then one was when we were. And I was really looking, really looking and thinking, were you doing that then? I was really trying to look at her and think, how long was she doing that?

I thought she was only, but how, as it, like say for me it seemed to happen in the space of like three years. you can't you've got to drink some to do that in three years you know it's a gradual thing so it was going on a long time and i was trying to look for it but you know one thing i think that will help you with your processing is that oftentimes when we talk about love and you've even used this example is you talk about caring for someone taking care of someone that's love love is i'm going to be there for you but you know what also is love letting go. That's love.

Yeah. Is saying, I can't be more for you than who I am today. And I'm going to love you by letting you go. Yeah. Yeah. Like I say, I think I have, there's just certain circumstances of the situation that just

they stay with you. Yeah. Yeah. It's quite hard to let them go because. Yeah. And this is something that you can't do immediately, like on a dime. And this is why the processing is a lifelong journey. It certainly is because this was 2012 December.

You know, we're like 13 years on. Yeah. You know, and it's still, that's that I don't think about it a lot. That's the other thing I don't think about it a lot in a sense. I do, but it's not like, you know, when it first happens, you're, you know, you feel guilty if you don't think of them or, you know, just not when it's their birthday or whatever, but you never know, it's going to come and get you again. That's the whole thing.

Yes. You know. Yes. And I think this is why conversations like this are so important because people will hear this and watch us and say, you know what? I'm not alone in this. Here's someone else who also is suffering. And I think that that awareness is the beginning of how you manage.

Yeah. And what's great is you have the awareness. You have also experience, because you've experienced with different medications, et cetera. But more than that, you have someone who loves you. Oh, God. You're multiple people who love you. Yeah, but my husband is, like I said, my family love them. I mean, that's one thing I wish.

And look, this is a, so people say, what a stupid thing to say, You can just do it if you want to. I wish I could show my husband how much I love him, you know. Because sometimes I just feel that he doesn't feel it because I understand why. But like I say, if there is a God and I'm not a believer in God as such, I believe there's some kind of energy or whatever, I mean, you know, he has come from there because, and he will hate me saying that. And he, because he's so humble and so, but he's, you know, he's such a gentle, kind.

love him, just the, honestly, just a really wonderful person that if there is somebody or something out there, they have sent him to look after me. And, you know, I just wish I could show, and like, let's say, people say, well, just do it. It's hard when your makeup is the way you are. You just, it's just, you know. You know, I suspect that he, he knows that you love him. And I think another great step towards that is allowing him to see this. Yeah. But I don't know if they'd get angry. I'd spoke about him.

Yeah. I think you've spoken very positively about him. No, I tell you what, let me, I'm going to ask you the last question because I think it's going to be about him. And that is, if you think back, Louis, to all of the incredible conversations you've had in your life, what was the most memorable conversation that you had? right so what what did you learn and who was it with oh my god

this might sound really fucked up but i'd say the most in court that makes sound crazy it's conversations with myself in my own head because i think if i didn't have those conversations i i wouldn't sometimes i wouldn't get up i wouldn't do anything

if i didn't have like said that other voice in my head constantly when I'm having that, trying to get through and having a conversation, just telling me that don't let it get you, it'll be okay, you'll be fine. And that may sound really fucked up and self-centered, but without that conversation, there would be no other conversations. Other people wouldn't get in.

If that, like I said earlier, if that voice ever disappeared, that would be a worry. And even though I may sound, as though I need real deep therapy saying I've got two voices in my head, it's that voice of just keeping me battling. It's like, you know, not letting that darkness really take over. You know, and then when it gets there, it punches through and there's light. So I think, I think, yeah, the most important conversations I have is with myself.

Wow. I've asked that question to every guest. No one has given that answer. God, that made it sound really fucked up. No, no, but I get it because I hear what you're saying. And you've actually echoed this throughout the conversation. I said earlier if I didn't have that voice. Exactly.

Exactly. Louis, I've enjoyed this so much. It's been different for me. This has been so different. You know also is I like this right now for you. I feel like I'm tapping into Louis right now. And I love Louis. I love the high kick Louis, right?

But this Louis, I see, is a whole different one. Yeah. And I love him. Louis, thank you. Thank you. Thank you. This has been, this has been, I feel like I know you, you know? This is so strange for me.

Yes. Really weird. Like I say, it's like, yeah, this is, you know, this is a person that is normally at home, not here, not with a camera. Yes. You know. I just want to say a huge thank you for being here and watching the show. It's really one of the greatest honors of my career to have these conversations. Can I ask a small favor?

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