We Need To Talk with Paul C. Brunson - MAFS Star Ella Morgan "You Say I'm Crazy, You're With Katie Price Now!" Most Trans People Attempt To Take Their Lives

Episode Date: March 25, 2025

Married at First Sight star Ella Morgan sits down alongside her dad Chris for an emotional conversation about identity, acceptance and resilience. Ella opens up about knowing she was different as a child, the challenges of transitioning, the heartbreaking moments of self-doubt and how her relationships on MAFS and Celebs Go Dating shaped her journey. She and Chris reflect on their struggles to understand each other, the moments that nearly broke their family, and the unconditional love that brought them back together. Chris speaks candidly about his struggles in coming to terms with Ella’s transition to being her biggest supporter. Together, they address the misconceptions surrounding trans identities, the harsh realities of discrimination, and the power of unconditional love. A powerful conversation every parent and child needs to hear. This episode discusses sensitive topics, including suicide and eating disorders. If you need support, please find resources below: MIND - https://g2ul0.app.link/w5vNMYwowQb Samaritans - https://g2ul0.app.link/zsXiEH8BORb Beat Eating Disorders - https://g2ul0.app.link/gHK6cjr3ZRb Follow me here: https://www.instagram.com/needtotalk  https://www.tiktok.com/@weneedtotalkpod  Follow Ella here: Instagram - https://g2ul0.app.link/T9GbS7j3ZRb TikTok - https://g2ul0.app.link/lTRuysm3ZRb (0:00) Intro   (1:27) Ella Being a Trans 'Advocate' Not an Activist   (3:41) Ella Explains 'Dead-Naming'   (6:14) Why Did Ella Go on MAFS?   (9:53) Ella's Relationship History Before MAFS   (12:07) Safety as a Trans Person   (14:40) What Were Ella's Lessons from MAFS?   (20:18) Ella's 'Ill-Advised' Relationship on Celebs Go Dating   (23:26) Adobe Ad   (24:26) Tinder Ad   (25:18) Ella's Reaction to Three-Year-Old Evan   (27:54) What Was Ella's Childhood Like?   (30:10) Ella's Experience at School   (31:54) Societal Scripts Around Gender   (33:44) When and How Ella Realised She Was Trans   (36:51) Ella's Experience of Bulimia   (43:52) Ella's Experience of Suicide at 16   (50:01) Ella Coming Out as Trans to Her Mum   (54:04) Ella First Presenting as a Woman   (55:44) How the Rest of Ella's Family Found Out Her True Identity   (57:34) Ella's Dad Joins the Conversation   (58:59) How Did Chris Find Out About Ella's True Identity?   (1:00:53) How Did Chris Feel When He First Found Out About Ella?   (1:02:56) Paul Shows Chris a Picture of Him and Ella from 2001   (1:04:43) What Were Chris' Hopes and Dreams for Ella as a Child?   (1:06:25) How Chris Dealt with Changing Terminology After Finding Out   (1:09:10) When Did Chris Realise Ella's Identity Wasn't Just a Phase?   (1:11:02) Public Reaction to Ella Presenting as a Woman   (1:12:49) Ella's Experience of Gender Reassignment Surgery   (1:15:27) Chris' Experience of Ella's Transition Surgery   (1:17:13) Stats on Suicide in Transgender People   (1:17:57) Ella's Second Experience with Suicide   (1:19:42) How Did Chris Deal with Ella's Suicide Attempt?   (1:21:35) How to Hold Space for Someone in Crisis   (1:22:29) What Is the 'Work' for Families During a Transition?   (1:25:29) Support for Parents of Transgender People   (1:27:23) What Ella's Transition Means to Chris   (1:29:26) Paul and Chris' Experience of Transphobia Among Friends   (1:31:02) Why Ella Is the Bravest Person Chris Knows   (1:34:02) Chris' Advice to Parents of Transgender Children   (1:34:43) Ella's Procedures and the Costs   (1:38:23) Statistics on Transgender Employment Rates   (1:39:40) Most Memorable Conversation   (1:43:19) Paul's Takeaways  Sponsored by: Adobe: https://www.adobe.com/uk/express/  Tinder: https://tinder.com/en-GB  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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For one moment, I see you two together. And the next moment, JJ's with Katie Price. It does make me laugh because I'm like, you say I'm crazy and I love Katie, but you're with her now. My name's Ella Morgan. I'm a trans TV icon. I believed that my parents and everyone else around me

was going to disown me. This is the perfect time to bring your father in. At the beginning, in my eyes, you didn't take it. very well. A feeling I've never felt before, like, shock, but just didn't want to say. Is it just a phase or what people got to remember is it's not just a person transitioning.

The whole family are transitioning. Can I show you one image that Ella Brock? I want you to tell me what comes to mind. I think she's the bravest person I know. I'm proud of what she's doing and nothing else matters, really. But then things take another turn for you. Before we get started, I want to personally invite you to subscribe if you haven't already. Joining our community means you'll be the first to know when new conversations drop.

And trust me, we've got some incredible ones coming your way. Plus, your comments shape the show. So let us know who you want to see on the show next. You are the first transgender woman that I believe that I have ever been close to. And I remember when I found out about you coming on to Marriott at First sight, UK, because that's where we met, is I remember how almost nervous I was in ensuring that I was... You didn't want to say the wrong thing? I get it. I get it. I get it all the time. Didn't want to say the wrong thing. Didn't want to be offensive. No. But that's what I'm trying to change, Paul, is that... And I get that because I look at the activist. Monroe, I look up to so much. Sean Faye, Charlie Craggs.

But the reason I call myself an advocate rather than an activist is because, once you say you're an activist and you say one thing wrong, I feel like you're completely cancelled. And as a community who everyone wants to cancel every day, look at what Donald Trump's doing, even today trying to ban trans people in the military. I don't want to be one of these, no disrespect to them, where everything I talk about, every conversation is trans.

There are people that do that job and they're fantastic. I personally don't relate to that. I learned more through watching our John Big Brother when I was younger because there was no one else to look at, and inspired to. And she was just like me, just a woman who's trans, living her experience and doing it so openly. And people relate to that more I feel.

No, no, you made us feel incredibly comfortable, right? And what I also loved is I loved the learning opportunity it gave me. And also what I noticed is that because of you, I began to become more aware of transgender, I would say challenges across the world. and I leaned into these topics because of you, right? Okay. So I say all this because in this conversation,

I am going to ask questions that I'm curious about. Yeah, good. I'm glad. And what I love is that, you know, you're not going to say bad Paul. Yeah. But still check me, though. Oh, I will. Oh, yeah. I didn't go laughing, but I will.

You still check me. Me, I get to check Paul everyone. You do. I want you to check me. Okay. Please check me. And can we start with this is that, so in my research for this, what I realized was the term dead naming. Yeah.

Or what I found is I'd never heard of this term before. So with this term, this is referring to, well, if you could explain. Okay. So dead naming is essentially where somebody refers to you as your old name that you were born at. So for example, me, my name was Evan. For me, it was part of my healing because everything I do in like, from like if it wasn't for Evan, I wouldn't be who I am and where I am now. So I actually talk about Evan as a third person.

So Evan was always a girl in my eyes and Ella is that person inside and out. Does that make sense? But if someone dead name me, they'd say, you know, you're a man, you're a hare and you're called Evan. But people, everyone knows my old name anyway. But so and I know your old name, right? So if I refer to your old name, that's not dead name because I'm not saying that's who you are now. Yeah, exactly. Okay.

It's usually when you do it in an aggressive way. Gotcha. And yeah, that's when it doesn't, it's not comfortable for either parties, really. Okay. All right, fair. See, I'm learning already. Yeah. We just started.

I'm learning. I feel more comfortable being in a space where if I acknowledge it and I talk about it, no one can then hurt me or upset with their words. Because the one thing someone would want to do if they didn't like me, it's come up to me and call me a he, call me a man and call me mild name, thinking that that would upset me or offend me. me. But actually, where I'm so at peace with that, it won't hurt me. It won't offend me. I'm the first to call myself this and that. But I think I'd do it as a bit of a coping mechanism.

Yes. I've learned so much from you. Am I not mature now? You are very mature. I'm a 31 year old woman. Yeah, I was going to say. And this is, I mean, you're looking very mature. Thank you. Can I see. Yeah. No latex anywhere? No, well, it's not a ward show, so I'll leave that for the Bafters. Well, that's where I, no, I did see you. I've seen you at the Bfters. Yeah, I saw you. I've seen you.

Ella, I've seen you many places. You have. I've seen you. You have the privilege. Yeah. And I want to talk about these places. Can we talk about the first place that we saw each other? Yes.

Married at first sight, UK. Yeah. All right. So if we could talk about a taboo top, I think this whole conversation is to be taboo. Yeah. But the topic I want to talk about is, Why did you decide to go on to maths? Because people, there's a massive debate.

Like, do you go into these reality shows for money and for branding? Or do you go on for love? Or is there another reason? Why did you choose to go on to Meredith Firstite, UK? And I'll be completely honest. I'm not going to sit around lie and say, I did math solely to find love. I ever since I was younger,

have always said to my parents, when they say, what are you ever? and what are you going to be or what are you going to do when you grow up? My answer was always, I'm going to be a girl and I am going to be a star. So I was also conscious and I knew that most reality shows, there was virtually no visibility for trans people or queer people.

So I knew I couldn't do Love Island. So what I guess I'm trying to say to you is, yes, part of me did, I'd say 60% of me did masks because I wanted a platform. I wanted to be the voice for the community, but then when it actually happened, I got scared of being that voice. And I know it's really taboo to back yourself and be like,

I'm this and I'm that. But if I don't back myself, after years of not backing myself, if I don't do it now, I'll never be that confident person. I always was like, I'm special. And I knew I'd got maths. I just had this feeling, and I also knew about celebs too, before anyone actually told me. And the thing I said to my parents was,

I'm doing this so that I can make enough money to pay off your mortgage and give you a comfortable life. And my dad come back me on that. And that's one of the big reasons that I did it. I love that answer because it's an honest answer. Yeah. And quite honestly, the more and more people that I talk to who are on reality, this is the answer. Yeah. It's like those two things don't have to be mutually exclusive.

No. You can want a brand and business opportunities and to pay your parents' mortgage, but also want love at the same time. Yeah. All right, so one more question around the business of reality TV. Yeah. And this is, I'm very curious about your answer on this because I was talking to someone who will, I will say will remain unnamed. Okay.

And she was on a very popular reality television show, dating show. And she told me how before the show, she studied other celebrities, namely the career of Megan McKenna. And she said, I studied how Megan McKenna was on Taui and she was able to leverage the, you know, being on the only way as Essex show to then become this singer and how she got brands. So she watched her career and then tried to emulate it.

Was there anyone's career or careers that you watched? No. No. Someone DM to me the other day, who I won't name. She's a trans woman. Okay. And she said, I don't know who else to talk to, but I've got this opportunity to do a certain show.

She said, can you give me your advice? And I said, the one piece of advice would be, no one gave me advice before I did mask. What you see off screen is the same as you'll see on screen. I've never faked anything. This is true. Other than the outside. The outside is very fake.

But I would say, be you, be authentic. Because if someone's going to hate you, you want them to hate you for you, rather than you faking something. And then you could turn around and be like, oh, well, that wasn't actually me. You looked like a dick then. So I would say, no, I've never looked up to anyone or tried to have anyone's timeline of their career,

because I just think that'll most likely fail because you're not that person. I think that is the best answer I've heard, and that's the best advice to anyone entering reality television. So now, also with Married at First sight, from what I understand, you had not been in a committed relationship, before or is that not the case? So going to, I've never spoken about this before either. When I was 20, that I didn't disclose my transition

and we were seeing each other for about a month. So I don't call that a relationship. And also I wasn't honest with him because I would never think of doing that now, whether I was in or out of public eye. Now it's slightly different if I date somebody. But yeah, back then I was so, I didn't have any confidence, and so I just wanted to be liked for Ella,

and I was like, if he knows about me, he's not going to want to be with me. So there was that lasted a month. Then I met somebody not long after, and we dated for about six months, but again, he didn't know. The pattern that I was trying to do was get validation from dating people, because I thought that would make me feel more of a woman. I look back at that, Ella, and I just think, girl, know you're worth, but I didn't have any worth then. What I hear you saying is that you were in casual relationships. Yes.

But you were never in a long-term committed relationship before maths. You said you didn't disclose. No. What didn't you disclose? I didn't disclose that I was trans. Okay. Yeah. So here's my question is, what is your opinion on that?

Now, I think it was wrong. Technically, I didn't lie. I didn't say, you know, I just said I'm yellow. I never actually said, no, I'm not trans. That's a lie. but I think I just didn't feel comfortable or confident or secure enough in myself to put myself in a position where I fully disclose

something so personal to me. When is the right time to tell someone you're trans? When you're dating someone, most men, and I've only ever dated cis straight men, most men that I've met aren't open and accepting to dating someone like me. So going into that, I was thinking, well, then if I tell them,

they're going to judge me if I tell them too soon, they're never going to give me a chance. If I tell them too late, I'm classed as a liar. They'll never get to know me for me. Or, you know, I've betrayed them. So there is no time scale. There's no right time to tell somebody such a personal thing.

And you just mentioned one reason why you didn't want to disclose is because of safety. Yeah. And that's probably the key word is that as, and I don't always feel safe even now. Like when we did celevskia dating, I went into that first mixer being like, I don't know these people. Do they know who I am? Do they? And it wasn't in a cocky, confident. I was just thinking, I'd rather know, you know, no other person has gone on Selez Gadda as a trans person and had to navigate this in their head.

People know Helena. She didn't have to say I used to be a boy or I was born in a boy's body. And I had to be like, do these people know who I am? You know, are they going to be accepted to me? I don't want to be hurt or, like, insulted or beating up on national television. All these things were going through my head. And that's the way it was in life. I kept thinking, am I going to be raped?

Is there going to be three men around the corner waiting to hurt me? because this is the reality of being in the trans community as a trans person. So yeah, and there was one time where I went back to this guy's house. I must have been about 25 and I was single. And he brought his friend back and it was in Bristol where I'm from. And his friend knew about me, but this guy didn't. And we were in bed and things started to happen and he had a text. And he said, is there something you need to tell me?

and I got my shit and I walked out as quick as I could. Before I could get out, this glass went past me, smashed, and he was trying to throw these glasses at me whilst the other guy just sat and watched. And I was like, there's two massive grown men in their 30s. I'm going to get really badly beaten up. And somehow I managed to get out. And I think it was after that that I then started to be like, right, I'm going to put them on a trans person because I never want to be in that situation again.

My answer to your question is, if you feel uncomfortable, you should be open. them. But from a safety point of view, I definitely feel safer with people knowing. Whether they're going to judge me and give me a chance or not, I don't really care at this point. I'm in a lucky position that they may know me anyway. So I don't have to tell them that conversation because it is an awful conversation to have. And from your perspective, though, you could see the fear of what happens if they don't know, right? Because I distinctly remember celibus go dating is that first mixer. Because I remember you before or yeah, before we started filming asking the producers, you know, do they know? Are these men aware? And I can also see the relief on your

face when the producers are like, yeah, they know. And they're here for you. Yeah. Yeah. And how incredible that must have felt as well. But back on to maths, we're going to get to Slumsgood dating. But on Maths, so with Maths, what's your takeaway? Because you're now, I know, the more mature Ella, right? So when you think about the lessons, what were those? I received a lot of hate and I got the hate before I even was shown on the show when people knew the cast had a trans bride in which was all the headlines were about. Rather than everyone else it was first trans bride, first trans bride. For me it was such a big deal. I know I was getting hate but I was like are people not seeing between the lines that a straight cis guy from Essex who has been open about the fact that he's never met someone trans, never been with someone trans, who knows he's going to probably get a lot of abuse for being with me, has just accepted.

me and been in an open relationship with me on national television. And that's what I thought was going to happen. I thought people would be like, Ella deserves this. She wasn't loves, you know. Her husband didn't really make the same effort she did. And now she's with someone that she could. And honestly, Paul, I mean this. I generally felt like I was living in this fairy tale when I got with JJ.

It meant so much to me. And I said to JJ, I was like, you need to tell Bianca because it shouldn't have to come from me. I've told my husband, Sure. You now need, albeit it wasn't on camera, you need to tell her. The mistake was that he didn't tell her, and I was like, great. And also the mistake was that I told all of the cast about, you know, how I was Gideon. I kept looking at my Nokia phone, because we weren't allowed our phones.

And every time he texts me, I'd be like, oh, and it was nothing inappropriate. But I was just like, it was, hey, how are you? You know, it was nice to see this morning. And I would be like this. It was generally my first crush. It was like, oh, my God, he didn't know about me from the beginning. He didn't see me do my speech. He had no idea I was trans.

The first time he knew was when we were at the spa day. And I made sure I was like, I'm going to bring it up somehow. And then we got on the bus and there was no cameras to go home. And I sat next to him and I said, oh, so did you know? We had this conversation. He was like, no, I didn't. But it wouldn't bother me. It was like, I thought maybe it would have done.

But actually it doesn't bother me. And he's like, I think you're beautiful and you're funny and you're, there's something about you that I gravitate towards. And like I'm smiling now, he's in a relationship. You know, I don't want to be back with him. and I'm sure he don't want to be with me. But it did mean a lot to me at the time. But sadly, people got hurt in this situation.

Me and JJ, I think Hodderhands up, doubt with it, you know, not the best. And I think the only person I feel really bad for is Bianca. He's super. Bianca's incredible. Yeah, she is. And I think I didn't feel so bad for Nathaniel because I also knew that off-camera, he made it clear to me he wasn't, you know, going to pursue things with me and that we should just stay in for the majority of the show if we can.

And I thought, I'm too authentic. I can't fake this. It's going to show because I can't hide things. You know what I'm like. And my mouth gets me in trouble. So, yeah, that's how that happened with JJ. Yeah. But the moment where you were really smiling in that story was his acceptance of you.

When I said it on the couch to you experts, I remember. I honestly was like, this is like a dream for me. I can't believe I've met a guy who accepts me. And it's on national television. I kept thinking the help that the inspiration this is going to do and the help that he's given me, it's going to inspire so many little boys and girls that are in my position or trans or transitioning.

Can I ask, why do you think it didn't work? Because from, you know, because I was close to the situation, but then once the couples leave, you know, the project, it's hard to keep track. and I just distinctly remember one moment I see you two together and the next moment he's JJ's with Katie Price

so how does that happen looking back now it's like was there that connection was there that emotional connection I think maybe it was a lot of fancying being sexually attracted to someone but there were times

where it would just be me and him with no cameras and he's you know he outwardly said I was too loud for him and you know I'd have a drink and go out with the girls or be with Tash we'll have a few drinks and then I would take out my anger and how I was feeling on him. So I'd be like, well, you know, I could probably get better than you anyway.

You know, all the things that he said on the show where he was like, Ella has a drink and she's bit was true. Like I wasn't the nicest. And I think I was a hurt person. Hurt people hurt people. And that's definitely what I did. And I thought, well, I'm going to make you feel shit because you make me feel shit. But he actually never intentionally did that. He was just a slow burner, which I used to think is a bullshit thing for.

for like, you just don't like that person, you don't want to admit it. So you're going to say, I'm a slow burn or I take a while. But maybe he did. Yeah. I don't know. And he was worried about how the public would portray him, what his friends and family would think. But it does make me laugh because I'm like, you say I'm crazy and I love Katie, but you're with her now. So, yeah, you never know.

I just wasn't the right person for him. I mean, we have no contact since the show. We haven't. I haven't actually seen him at all since we filmed the show. Because we were texting before we did. the vow and yours. So I already knew that he wasn't feeling it and I knew he was going to say no at the vow and yours. I actually wanted to say yes. I didn't get over JJ for, because it was such a big moment in my life on a big public scale. I'd say it took me a good six to eight months

to get over him because I was like, I really did like him. But I'm fully over him now. I'm fine. I wish him the best. I wish Casey the best. If they're happy, they're happy. Fair. Fair. And Clearly, you were over him because then in the next show, we did Slubs Go Dating. You had another highly publicized relationship. Yeah. All right. Now, this is one that I personally never endorsed Ella. Can I ask why, though?

Yes. Okay. The big reason why is that we had Sher Lloyd on. Share Lloyd, a phenomenal person, right? She was talking about her marriage. And I literally watched videos where she was going to New York, paparazzi every one. and her husband would take a step back to give her the floor. What I saw with your partner is he stepped up.

When he saw that, in my opinion, when he saw the light, he stepped into the light with you instead of saying, no, Ella, this is your moment. You take this light. That's, you know, so I always say that our behavior is more indicative of our words. But that was my perspective. Tell me what happened. You were probably right.

There was something about celebs that was different to mass where I could just be me and I felt more comfortable and I kind of knew how it would, how it worked. And I actually went into it being like, I really do want to meet somebody, but I'm probably not going to. So I was so relaxed about it and I thought, I've got nothing to lose. I'm just going to be me.

And if it happens, it happens. And I didn't expect to meet somebody. But I also didn't expect that a load of, you know, straight guys would apply to date me or want to be with me. I didn't foresee that happening. But I guess from my presence en masse, the perception that a lot of guys had of trans people had then changed because they'd seen me. And there was something about Alex that I was a bit like, he's not my usual type, but there was something. And I do always go off of a feeling or a, you know, gut feeling. And usually I'm right.

I clearly wasn't with this one. But I, do you want to know why it ended? Yes. The relationship was really good, I thought, during the filming. And just, you know, not long after him. We were a couple. And I was so shocked you were there when he said,

will you be my girlfriend? And I was gobsmant because I just thought, we've only known each other for a month. We've probably met like five times at this point because we would secretly meet up and stuff outside of the show, which you weren't really allowed to do. Sorry to the producers. But the truth is it was very toxic.

Like everything was an argument. And I just lost all self-confidence. And then I discovered that there was girls that were messed in me saying that he'd been messaging them. And I still don't to this day know what to believe. Neither do I care. But yeah, just at the time, it was a big deal. Like it was my first proper committed relationship.

Yeah, look at that. You know, the fear of being alone keep so many people in toxic relationships. Your instinct was right. And I should have trusted my gut. It's all that we live, love, and learn. Here's something I've learned from all my years talking to people about making changes in their lives. We all have moments where we get stuck in the thinking phase, planning, dreaming, waiting for the perfect moment.

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Can we talk about someone else? Yeah. This is, you brought some photos in. And I say I want to talk about someone else because you referred to this person. Yeah. Doesn't mean you have to. That's just my way of doing it.

No, no, I want to do what you do. Oh, okay. That's how I know that I'm being respectful. So this, this is who? This is little Evan. This is Evan. Evan is a good look. Wait, hold on.

Is that Darth Vader? I was very cute. I was obsessed with Star Wars. Evan is cute. Oh, I haven't had a physical copy of this in so long. Evan is cute. I think that this is a great opportunity for us to talk about your childhood. Yeah.

So when you look at that photo, what comes to mind? Oh, it's so weird because I've got, like, with my family and stuff, we've got pictures of me around my mom and dad's house. But there was a stage when I first transitioned where I was like, take all the pictures down. I don't want to talk about him. I don't want to see pictures of him. How old are you in that photo? I was about three or four. Okay.

I had an obsession with Star Wars. I'm glad that I can say I. Because we're the same person, really. I just look beautiful now. But yeah, I... This is just weird. I've never speechless. I've never, like, lost words.

When I look at this, I just think, God. What would you tell Evan at three, yourself at three? I look into my eyes, and I look into Evan's eyes. Yes. And they're the one thing that I have never changed and probably never will. Everything else about me physically has been altered or changed or I've grown older or had hormones or gone through puberty. And, you know, it's kind of changed. I don't know.

I feel sad because I look into my eyes and I guess from the outside, like I look happy there. Yes. I exude happiness. I look happy. But I feel sad because a lot of my memories for some reason from when I was younger, managed to forget or like blank out. And so it's really hard to try and remember. I had a really good childhood. Like I was a happy child. What was childhood like for you? And also because you mentioned everyone around you. So who was around you also at that time? So I've got three brothers,

Ross, Owen and Drew. So Drew's younger than me and Ross and Owen are older. And my mum and dad. So for me, my family unit was always the six of us. My three brothers. others and it still is and my mum and dad and we're we are all close and I absolutely love them to bits and I was just so flamboyant and I was so out there and they yeah they let me just be me like I was I had this obsession with Star Wars and it was just like I'd like that that's why I had to have a picture with it um god it's so hard to remember because this is really young this is like I was about three yes so you felt love I've never not felt love from my family.

You felt love from your brothers, from your parents. Yeah, I was loved. Like at that age, you felt love. Yeah, I've always felt love. You mentioned you were flamboyant. Yes. Okay. How do you define flamboyant?

Oh, God, maybe I'm wrong, but I just thought flamboyant is kind of like I was very out there. I was very feminine and kind of girly. I just remember being like, my mom's shadow. I was obsessed with my mom. I would follow around everywhere, but she dropped me off to her kids' party, and I would always cry. Because I just used to love sitting and watching and get ready,

and I was my mom's best friend, or she was my best friend, like I just was obsessed with that. And this was, where did you grow up? I grew up in Bristol. In Bristol. Yeah. So Bristol, even from visiting Bristol, I always think of it as more liberal than other cities

and areas within the UK, but still you're a little boy. You're in a little boy's body. Body, yeah. Okay, you're in a little boy's body. You love everything about your mother. Yeah.

You consider yourself flamboyant. Yeah. Do you feel at all ostracized from social circles as a result of that? And the reason why I say that is is because I know how little boys and little girls are, Right, especially with my boys. And I see how vicious they can be with each other at school.

Did you feel any of that at school or in other social circles? Yeah, I do remember from a very young age feeling like I didn't fit in. I didn't know I was trans until I was kind of 11, 12. But I definitely thought from a young age and I knew from a young age, I felt different, you know, as a parent, and I don't know, I haven't got kids. but it's like you have a child, okay, but you base the gender on their genital, genitals. Yes, yes. And instantly there's this like social construct of, okay, you've got a boy, blue, has to play football.

Oh, you've got a girl. I'm hoping that kind of changes now. But it's like pink, play ballet and your friends are all girls. And that's how you're kind of programmed to think. And that was also on things I watched or in books I read. It was always Princess meets Prince Charming. And like, it's all, people talk about trans people trying to brainwash kids. I'm like, we all still get brainwashed with what society thinks that boys and girls should like and do, etc.

From such a young age. And so I knew that I was different, but I couldn't put my finger on it. And I did face a bit of, I mean, my whole life I've faced bullying, like a lot of people. All my friends were girls, so I didn't really get on with the boys. And so in primary school, that doesn't affect things so much. But when you then go into secondary school and you've got things like PE where the boys had to be with the boys and girls with the girls,

I hadn't faced that in primary school. I could just be with my girlfriends and we weren't segregated from one another, whereas all of that changed in secondary school. Your point about that social construct is so powerful. You know, I remember with our firstborn son, Kingston, there was this beautiful writing that we had above his, well, we call it a crib.

What do you call it here in the UK? No, a crib. It's a crib. It's a crib. It's a same thing. Okay, it's great. Beautiful. writing Kingston. And I remember my wife and I saw it, it was in pink letters. It was great,

beautiful, right? We place it up pink. And I'll never forget some friends coming over and asking me, Paul, why did you have pink lettering for your son? And I was thinking, this is the most ridiculous question you can ask me. But I also realized the reason why is because I was able to experience things within my life and be supported to in essence not be as ignorant as as as those folks but it was through I think phenomenal parenting that I had so I would imagine that you were able to feel comfortable in yourself and comfortable with the girls because of your parents yeah and and the and the love and protection safety they gave you and they did they love me and my brothers and like my brother Ross wanted an Ariel doll, Barbie doll.

He was obsessed with Ariel. And like they just let him have it. And so I think a lot of the time people are so fixated on like gender of, I hate gender of ill parties. I absolutely hate them because, you know, what if they end up like me? You've done all of that. And then they end up changing gender anyway.

So waste of money. No, I'm joking. Don't have children if you're going to be appalled that they've turned out to be gay or, you know, that their life. ambition is to go away and do this and they don't want to live in the UK or just any aspect of life really you could say that about. You just mentioned at 11 is when you realized you were trans. Yeah. Now, help me understand this because at 11, I had no idea what transgender meant me at 11. So at what is it, because at 11 you became familiar with what trans what trans. Okay, that's why.

Yeah, so we did sex education in school. Okay. And up until that point, I was kind of aware from watching soaps and things, what someone who's queer, someone who was gay or bi or lesbian was from watching things on TV. But I didn't, no one ever really spoke about trans or what trans was. And so I think I did sex education, and I generally mean this, it was a light bulb moment, where I just kind of, the definition was described. Someone who's trans is somebody who's born in the wrong body

and assigned a different gender at birth to how they feel. Okay. And it was like, oh my God, this is me. I knew I fancied guys or I was attracted to guys from quite a young age. But because nothing about trans had been mentioned, I was like, maybe I'm going to turn out like my brother who's gay. Like maybe I just fancy men, I'm not sure. But then as soon as I knew, I was like, I'm trans.

I was like, I'm a girl, and it all made sense. Like, I was born in the wrong body. I have to imagine that moment must be. Yeah, because my whole family is mainly just boys. I suddenly felt, not that I had a purpose, but there's other people like me out there. So I am, those feelings I had made sense. You're not alone.

Yeah. You're not alone. Yeah. What did you do with that information? Did you go talk to your brother or maybe your mom? No. No. I kept it in because then I do this thing where I, if I think about stuff, I obsess over it. And then I just like to look at like, I go down these rabbit holes and I'm just like, okay, I'm going to focus on that. So at the minute, it's a Birkenbag. I really want a Birkenbag. So I'm just like focusing on that. But when I remember. I like a Buckingback too. Oh, so good. Yeah, I'm like for me too.

So I remember, as soon as I knew I was, I'm, you know, I'm trans. I was born in the wrong body. I'm a girl. But I just remember I need to keep this information to myself and I obsessed over it. And I was like, I'm going to do computer work. ICT or IT, whatever the lesson's called. Because I didn't, we didn't have a computer or a PC at home for a while. And I would just Google and research and be like, trans, what's trans, what's trans?

And then I started being like, okay, there's a program on. soon, but it's past 9 o'clock I'll probably in bed where Big Brother Nadia was on, or there was a documentary about lady boys and different cultures and I started to just see it everywhere and then I was just like, oh my God, I need to know more about it. Just a heads

up, we'll be discussing eating disorders and suicide. Please watch with care. And you could find support charities in the episode description. Is this when your eating patterns begin to change?

Oh, God, yeah. I was obsessed with things like the Kardashians or like America's next top model, and I would watch these shows. And I would fixate on the type of woman that I would look up to, which was this, you know, Pamela Anderson and Tyra Banks. And those were the days where magazines would really put, you know, who wore it better, this person or this person? and they would really ridicule people on the front page.

And so I started to have this very unhealthy attitude towards food. But I basically would make myself sick because I wanted to be skinny. I wanted to be small. I was thinking, well, my friends keep talking about pleading and my friends talk about bras and things like that. And that's going to happen to me. Like that will happen to me.

And I used to look in the mirror and think, like, I don't look like a girl. I don't look like my friends and I want to. And I thought by doing that, I would resemble more of a feminine body. Even though, Paul, I was tiny. I was so small and I've always been small. That's why I look back now and I just think, I can't believe that I did that for so long.

I think my mum and dad knew what was going on because he'd stand outside and I remember I got shouted at because it was like, what are you doing? Why are you being sick? And then I was being bullied in school and I would use that as an excuse to not go to school because I'd say, you know, I've been, I've been sick, I've been sick because I made myself sick.

I'd eat yogurt in the morning because I knew I could always bring that up. This is funny talking about it now. When I was like 12, 13, that was definitely a time where I struggled and I found it really difficult. So if you showed me a picture of that, it would have been very different

to the answer that I would give for this. Did you at that point begin experimenting with... Yeah, different clothing at that point as a result of... So it was the sick, it was the bulimia, it was the trine on my mum's clothes, obviously the house is full of boys. I wanted to grow my hair,

didn't really like getting it cut, I had this big sweeping fringe, and I'd want to dress as feminists as I could without actually being clocked and being like, okay, well, that's, you know, girls' outfit, you can't wear that, so I still wear makeup, you know any money i'd get i'd secretly try and get my girlfriends to buy things for me with

their um and i try and live as girly as i could without it being given away because i generally thought everyone in my life was going to i actually i actually remember this i believed that my parents and everyone else around me was was going to disown me and so what i thought in my head for so many years was before I got to the age of like 16, 17 when I left school was I'm actually going to have to leave school and then learn to drive, which is one of the first things I did, and then I'm going to move away. I preempted that my family were not, I'm not going to cry because I always cry, but I just preempted my family and what I thought their reaction was going to be

and I thought I'm going to disappoint them so I actually remember thinking this is such a, I remember this I remember thinking I'm going to learn to drive and I'm going to move to a different country or I'm going to move somewhere else because they're not going to support me and they are going to disown me

and I just remember thinking how am I going to navigate my life but I know I so desperately wanted to just be ever to express myself as Ella and be Ella outside. And like talking about it now makes me so sad because I've got the best relationship with my family. And it just makes me sad that there's probably kids out there that made me feel like that.

Sure. That the only way to live your true identity is to leave all the people that you love. Yeah. That's incredibly powerful because you talked about how much love. there was in your home. Yeah. But these counter images and information that you were reading about was so negative around the transgender community.

It seems like you felt like, okay, this is who you are, but it's not a good thing. It's negative. Yeah. It's bad. Everything to be in trans I thought was negative. Other than me, be authentically myself and look the way I've always kind of dreamed of luck in, everything else connected to being trans, I thought was a negative thing.

It was negative. There's some statistics here that are alarming. Nearly 50% of transgender teens, over 33% of young transgender adults reported disordered eating behaviors. Think about that, including binge eating, fasting, using pills, laxatives, or vomiting for weight loss. 50% of transgender teens, that's mind-blowing. I didn't know that. Yeah, it's mind-blowing. And also, it's important to say, too, is that this,

what you described is an eating disorder, right? An eating disorder is a mental health condition where you're using the control of food to cope with feelings or other situations. But it makes me sad that I would do that because I actually look back at pictures now from that time of my life. And I wasn't big, so I don't know what I thought. But I know I was just hurt and I was scared and confused and upset.

What I did know about your story that is now, you know, it's quite sad, is how alone you were during this period. Because there was no one that you were talking to. So you were getting this information where you're just online. and then you were making these decisions yourself without even talking to it. No friends, no one. No, I was, I was scared.

This was at a time where it wasn't discussed. Like it wasn't something that people would really talk about. Whereas now people are having these open conversations and it's a lot more open than it was when I was younger. I was a bit like I can't talk to people about it Because if this person tells that person, my mom might find out or my brothers might find out. And they were in the same school as me. Fair, fair.

So with this continuing to build up, you know, you're in your early teens. And set the parameters where you want to on this. But then at 16, roughly 16, things take another turn for you. Oh, no. Sorry. It's really hard to talk about. But sadly, like statistically, most trans people do attempt to end their lives, either before transition or during or after. So my story is just one of so many.

I suppressed, like, being Ella, like I somehow managed to do day-to-day life as ever. So where I used to live, there was a big motorway bridge. It's called the Avermouth Bridge. And there was a side alley, like walk path, pathway to get to the other side. I just felt so low that I was like, I keep, you know, every day having to wake up and put on this front and be this person that I'm not and lie to everyone. And when can I be me? When is my life going to change? And I just, that day, it all just got too much.

and I thought I don't see the light at the end of the tunnel. And I started to walk up towards the bridge. And I got to the middle and I just remember that I could see actually my family home where I lived in the distance. But what I was thinking in my head was that my family would probably be better off without me and that I'm never going to be able to change. And I'm never going to be able to live this happy life like all my, my, my, brothers or like my friends do and I just kept thinking like I'm a mess like I'm a freak like I I will never be able to be the person that I am now sat with you I was like I don't think I've got

the courage or the guts to physically sit my parents down and say to them I'm a girl and I'm going to transition so for me the easy way out was to end my life um So I sat there and I just, I sat on the floor and I was just going to and fro of, okay, well, I'm not going to ever be able to be me. I'm going to let my parents down because I'd had their love so unconditionally up until that point. That that's all I'd ever known, like all I'd ever known was their unconditional love. And I just thought, I'd rather end of our life now. knowing that that's all I've ever had,

then to tell them about what I was feeling and how I felt and disappoint them and not make them proud. And I didn't want to embarrass them. And I just remember thinking this is the easy outcome for everyone. I don't have the strength to go through this. And so it was life or death. Like when people say to me, why did you choose this? It was literally life or death.

And I just remember thinking, like, that I didn't want to let them down. And so, right, this is it. I'm going to end my life. And then they can meet their happy family without me, and I won't break their hearts. And they will never need to know the reason that I was feeling this way or why I did it. You know, it can be a secret that dies with me. And I must have been sat there for a good hour.

I looked through the pictures. obviously I had family pictures on there. And I thought, I can't do this to them. Like, it would absolutely break the hearts if I really do this. At least they deserve is for me to be open and honest with them. And whether they accept me or not, it was like a turning moment. I thought, I don't want to leave them. I'd miss them too much and I love them.

And I was like, I need to get the strength now to face the music. And I was like, I would actually rather be here. as Ella, than to die as Evan and die as a boy and never have got to have lived the life that I'm living now. So sometimes it's like moments like this where I pinch myself. And I just remember thinking, no, I need to get up now and go home and tell my family how I'm actually feeling. If they support me, they support me. If they don't, they don't. So, and I've kept all of this in for years, so I knew it was going to be a bit of a shock to them.

Yeah, you're right, because 11 is where you discovered. So you're 16 now. So for five years you kept this secret. And it was also not just them, but it was also me. Like I wanted to be Ella. Like I wanted to live, get to live this life. And like, I know what it's like to date a boy and be beautiful and look in the mirror and feel happy with how I looked. And just be the girl that I've always known I am.

Like, I wanted to experience that. So it was my mum I had a conversation with. And I sat on my bed. This is the same day. No, no. It must have been. and maybe a few weeks later. Okay.

Because I still had it in my head that they were probably going to disown me, and so I kept thinking I need to drive, I need to learn. I had this fixation with learning to drive so I could get away and escape. Yes. And I remember the day, I was in my bedroom, and she came and sat on my bed. And as a teenager, she'd said to me privately, like, are you, do you mind me asking, after my brother came out, it was gay,

do you mind me asking, are you gay? And I was like, no, no, I'm not. And it always stayed with me for a while because I was like, she knows she's on something, she knows something. But I was like, no, she won't know. She came in and she said, like, what's wrong? And I just, I remember breaking down and being like, please don't hate me, please don't be angry.

She said, do you want to be a girl? And I said, no, mum, I am a girl. And this is what I said at the speech at the dinner party at maths. I said, my mum asked me. And I just said, no, I am a girl. and I said, you won't be able to understand this or believe this now. And I know I'm sat here in boy form, but I have always been a girl, like I always have felt like I am Ella inside.

And no, I want to be able to just blossom and be this butterfly, which is why I've got the butterfly on me, tattooed. So she took it better than I thought. And I slowly started telling friends them. That's when I started telling people around me. I remember talking to my brother Ross, and I was thinking, okay, he's getting. But you still haven't told your father yet. No, no, no, no.

I actually, I didn't ever tell my dad he ended up finding out. I never really sat down and told him there was a load of leaflets from the doctors because I'd gone to the doctors. I went on my own and I said, I don't know if you've come across this before, but I am a girl and I feel like I'm born in the wrong body. The way I think and everything about me just doesn't align with how society thinks, I should be or how everyone else views men. She said, no, this is new to me, but we'll help you through it.

And she was really supportive. And she got these leaflets. And she told me how the pathway works, where she will refer me to a psychiatrist for an assessment to check my mental health and things of that. And I wasn't open, actually, about my eating. People always like to put a blame on, like, were you, I always used to get asked. Were you molested as a child? Were you raped?

Does anyone ever touched you? Have you ever had? had bad eating habits or if I tried to kill yourself up all these things and I obviously lied because I thought I need to lie to get through this pass it and just be Ella so she did what she said this all took a very long time by the way this whole and this the NHS waiting list is even longer now yeah yeah I if it's an NHS waiting list right now is five years and can I ask a question about this because as I saw this in the in the research let me see if I can find it here To legally get gender reassignment surgery, you must prove that you have two years of real life experience living as a woman.

Yeah. Was that the case for you? So gender reassignment surgery is the surgery. So you only need to do that two years lived experience if you want to have surgery, which obviously not every, I think about 40% of trans women at least do go ahead with having gender reassignment, which is the vagina, the making of the vagina. And just so I'm clear is, what journey are you on right now? So I'm still presenting as Evan. Okay. I've told my mom, I spoke to the doctor and I've had my assessment with the psychiatrist,

but basically got to a point where even though I knew I was on the list to go to the gender clinic, I physically couldn't wait any longer. I literally was like, and I said to my mom, I don't want to be out like, I need to do this now. I need to do this. So I decided to physically transition. So I decided to do this two years of what they're talking about is to work as a woman, to pass as a woman, to mix with society, to come out and to present physically as a woman. That's what that means.

So I thought, right, as soon as I've got to this gender clinic, I want to be able to say, I've done the two years already, but luckily I didn't have to wait that long. Can I ask, though, is that because at this point, when you decide you've not presented as a woman, Publicly. No. So could you describe that first day? And I say that first day is first time publicly going to whatever it may be. So I had a friend, Claudia, who I used to, and obviously at this point I'm still working like in a supermarket, in a weight trays, whilst going to college.

So I was like, fine, I'm going to do your money I earn. Once I pay my bills, I'm going to start buying my wardrobe. So I used to get everything delivered. I had wigs, hair extensions, make. come. I had no clue what I was doing, Paul. I looked a hot fucking mass. And it's funny because like the memories, it was fun because I just got to be me. I remember her parents were probably a bit like, oh, what's going on here? But I used to go around to hers. I'd walk up to her house and I would literally try on everything. And that's why I'd put makeup on and she'd dress me up.

And I'd sit there as Ella. Then I decided I was like, right, I need to now do this publicly. I want to go to work. I want. Because also, I'm sorry, to interrupt, but it seems like when you would do that at Claudius, you would then have to take it all off. Yeah, I did. And then it would all stay at hers. Yeah. It was all at her house.

And I think maybe her dad said to her, we can't keep this. I think they kept in the garage. And he said, Claudia, we can't keep this all here now. Ella needs to take it. So I was thinking, oh, God, I'm going to have to, where do I hide it? So I did take it home eventually. Right now I'm still presenting at home and publicly as a boy. I put all of it under my bed

along with the leaflets for the gender clinic and we were going on a family holiday a few weeks after this is like the summer we had this massive row because I was like I don't want to go on holiday and this is then when it all started coming out about me

your father had found out that I was going to change and that I was on that pathway to change and I wanted to be Ella and I remember saying I don't want to go on holiday because I don't want to have to be in swimming trunks, I want to cover up. Like, I want to be a girl.

And, yeah, we had an almighty round. And then he found all of the stuff under my bed, and he hid it in the garage. I remember that. He got quite angry. I didn't know this was happening, but my mum and dad were arguing about it because she was obviously supportive at first,

and then he wasn't. And where he wasn't supportive, it was then turning my mum kind of like the other way, and she was like, actually, I can't be involved with this. you're going to have to move out. So I remember her saying you're going to have to go. To your father? No, to me.

To you? To me, yeah. Oh, my goodness. But the reason why that hits hard is because to me, that feels like that taps into a fear you had since you were 11. And that was your family disowning you. Yeah. I didn't know how my dad was going to rat and I was petrified. And I was thinking, oh, my God, this is all going to be a disaster now.

I'm going to have to go. That's your worst nightmare. Yeah. It wasn't a positive time is what I remember. And this is you sitting your father down for the first time and telling him, you are a girl. Yeah. I think this might be the right time to bring your father in. Ah, okay. Could we do that?

Yeah, absolutely. Okay. Because I think it's going to be fascinating to hear the story. Yeah. From this point on, because he now is included in the story. Yeah. From this moment on. There he is. Trace, it's a pleasure.

No, no, he's an honor. It's an honor. Come on. Have a seat. Come on. Like a little family day out we've had so far. Oh, my gosh. Because, Chris, you are, do you still live in Bristol?

Yes. Just outside Bristol, yeah. Okay. What I found so interesting about Ella's story to this point is she talked about how much love she saw between you and you. your wife. Yeah. Yeah.

But you know, you know, it's there. It's there. But then also how loved Ella felt. But yet she was timid to tell you and to tell your wife that she is a woman. She was a girl. So here's a stat. Almost half of LGBT. plus young adults.

So 46% are estranged from at least one family member. So there you go. I mean, that is incredibly sad. Yeah. Right. So if we go back to that moment, okay? I can't remember much about the conversation in the room. It's more about a conversation in the room after when me and Drew seeing you in the car in Weston.

Did you know about me at that point now? No, not at all. Okay. So I was with Rosie, my friend Rosie, and I was driving my car, and I was... Stopped it around about. I stopped it around about. And we came on the opposite side in a roundabout and sort of drove around, and I looked. And then there was Ella, dressed, never like I've ever seen him before.

The wig and the makeup and the... It's awful. And then I just looked in my side and went, was that? And he said, yeah, that's Ella. Or that was Evan. That was it, right. And it's just like a, I don't know, just a funny,

with a never a feeling I've never felt before. Like shock, but just complete, like, didn't know what to say, just didn't know what to say. Yeah. In that moment, Chris, I'm imagining. So you have no idea whatsoever about, about your child's true identity. Yeah.

Right. And now you're at this roundabout and you look and you see for the first time. It might as well have been on a billboard. That's the effect it had. You drive along and you see. And you just see it. You see it.

Yeah. If you could describe those feelings, quite honestly, what were some of those feelings? Because when I look at this data and I see that 46% of LGBT plus young adults are estranged from at least one family member to me that sounds like the feeling on the part of one family member is disappointment, upset, you know, etc.

So did you have any of those feelings? Only upset knowing, not knowing I could have been spoken to about it or I could have been approached or I would have been fine. But to find out that way, it was more of a sure. than sitting down and having a conversation like this. Okay, okay. And that was funny, because from what I remember, and obviously our stories may differ,

my eyes, you didn't take it very well at the beginning, and I was more scared about telling you than I was telling mum's. Well, it's not, let you say not take it well, it's not like you're coming home with a tattoo and you've kept it secret for six months. It's a little, there's something a bit more sort of, is that what you really, really want is it are you like certain this is the sort of thing you want to do is that sort of that

was what how it came to me it was it was you sure you're doing this do you want this or is it just a phase or is it an experiment or is it that's that's the that's how I felt really yeah but that's that phase we did have a lot of like rouse like we didn't have the best relationship like we do now didn't Like we both, I maybe didn't deal with things very good, but initially when I came out and the first few months of me presenting a Zella were difficult. Instantly, instantly you wanted us to just forget the past

and just say, this is what I am now, and just get on with it. But it's not as easy as that for a parent. We weren't ever involved in anything like this before. It was all new. It was like a bomb went off, basically. Yeah, I can imagine. You know, I think what would be helpful,

is, so I gave Ella this photo. So she gave us the image, but we printed this image, right? And I have another image. Can I show you one other image that I have? I want you to tell me who's in this image and what comes to mind when you see this image. So, Chris, you're looking good at that, Chris. You're looking good at this, Chris.

All right, so if you could describe this image, what do you see, what's happening? Well, it's just love. Yeah, just, I don't know really. Just have your time, really. Okay. Which is now, but. Chris, I tell you, this one, this one's got you emotional.

Yeah. What do you think is pulling at your heartstrings when you look at that photo? Times would ever... You know what, you know, it's so profound. I think, you know, as a parent, I can tell you that. when you look at when you look at when you look at your child at least for me i have hopes and dreams for for them and i realize that they may not have have have these hopes and dreams but you have hopes and dreams for your child at that time what what were your hopes and dreams for

Evan? Just to be happy and just sort of you loved acting, didn't you? Yeah. Just sort of follow that and just be happy. I don't care why any of my kids do as long as they're happy. Yeah. Yeah. And so from that, it felt like from that moment, you entered a hard period of your life.

You know, there were many, many years that were challenging. but ultimately we get to this place now where you're set, you know, together, reflecting back upon these with someone who I believe is incredibly happy now, right, in her life. So the dream has been realized, you know? But at that point, especially then,

because I think a lot of people don't realize that was a different time. Yeah. You know, there was a lot of, there was, there still is not enough visibility around the transgender community today, but then it was almost non-existent. So at that time, what year is that roughly?

That picture, that was 2001, that one. All right, 2001. Did you know what the term transgender was in 2001? No. No. So you know, Chris, this is where you and I are very similar because you know when I fully got introduced to the transgender community.

You know when that was? when I met Ella. Oh, was it? Yeah. So I was, I've been on the outside, you know, so I think we're very similar in that. And when initially, when I met Ella, I was, and even now I find myself almost tripping over certain words to not cross a line. How do you not offend, but yet learn as a father? How do you do that?

Um, just, just a simple thing of referring to Ella as she instead of he was, it was hard at the beginning because for the best part of 18, 9, sort of 17, 18 years, that's what you've always said. Yeah. And you've said he or, and to completely want to say something, but I think I better customize this to not offend. in anyone. We would be talking about it past, but I'd have to refer to the past as as a she, or Evan as a she.

So it was the case if you were tuning your mind to sort of not, and at the beginning, whenever we even mention that name, you'd kick off. Yeah. Oh, okay. You would kick off and then it'd be a big, big few, big row, not physical, but any pictures

any pictures that were around, anyone come in that didn't know about it we'd all be we'd get a text or whatever get the pictures down get the pictures down so we'd have to get all the pictures down and then and you're talking to this person and they say and then obviously won't ning nings but there are instances where you would be talking and and they would say what was ella like as a girl what was ella like at school and then you would you'd have to think about what your answer because you could instantly get something completely wrong and then this thing what are they talking about it?

Which I feel bad looking back now I remember my mum did keep saying you're going to have to be honest, she's going to have to be honest and I was like no no no I got and they were amazing parents in the sense that they did whatever I asked but you know it also they were put in positions that they probably

didn't want to be put in the way I was back then it was just like you need to call me her you need to call me Ella and I just have a go at everyone and I was just quite angry at that stage in my life So this stage is, this is a pivotal stage because you're transitioning, physically, you're transitioning at the same time. So during this process, Chris, I'm curious because, you know, you mentioned initially you thought, okay, maybe Ella's going through a face, you know. At what point did you fully understand this is not a face?

the dress wearing the clothes Ross is gay Ella's brother okay so I thought because you looked up to him you just thought

I thought she just wants to be Ross she just wants to be like Ross because he's trendy he's cool she's not cool yeah he's cool

he's cool and I just thought maybe maybe I knew there was something going on but I didn't think it was

the transgender thing. I thought it was just you were just going to be a gay guy. Gay. But then the clothes thing and I thought well if you've got the guts to do that it's not a phase because even going to work because you worked at the airport, yeah.

Yeah, just to do that. I mean I think she's the bravest person I know. Oh. I mean, you think You think of what Ella and so many other people have gone through and the resistance. And I think that the power of this conversation is for us to help to destroy a lot of the ignorance that exists, you know, in the world. It's like bullying, isn't it, at school? I mean, how kids do it at school now, I mean, that must be so brave.

Yeah. Yeah. I couldn't have done it. No, same. The same, you know, because I can imagine, you know, you even going to work. So you were working at the airport. Yeah. Right?

You're going and you're now presenting as a woman. Yeah. What's the reaction? Oh, God. Well, I started the job as presenting as Evan, so they all already seen what I looked like. I worked on check-in. So I was a checking agent. There was protocols because of security.

and you have to go through security and I have my name badge so we had to change that and I had to have a new picture and, you know, they had to have talks of what toilets I would use. So all of these things had,

I couldn't just come in one day. I had to actually tell them and I was so nervous the day I think I had a few days off and then I knew that maybe the Monday, whatever it was, was the first day that I was going to be going back to work

as Ella. And it was, yeah, I don't know how I did it. I was so nervous because people had already heard that I was going to be coming in, you know, different. They were already prepared for it. And I was told, right, you can use disabled toilet, not the girls.

And when you go through security, you'll have to go if you beep, to go up to them board the flights. If you beep, a male has to assert you in a private room. So I knew I was having this special treatment. But everyone's reaction was mostly, like, positive. Everyone was really nice to me. Some of the passengers would be rude. but I still don't know how I did it to the state.

You know, that notion of passing, though, and then also you mentioned that there's a, you mentioned 40% of transgender women go through with gender reassignment. So was that, what was the reason why you opted to do that? And why do the vast majority not? More than likely, most people aren't ever going to meet a trans person, especially with what's going on in the climate now. Everyone wants to keep quiet and keep their eyes in.

too quiet because we don't want to have to face, you know, discrimination more so than we already do. So I think because society's view of trans people, a lot of the time is just based on one person that they've seen on telly or that they know, they basically think that every trans woman has surgery. So a lot of people will ask me, have you had it done? You know, well, I talked about it so much on the show that I have a vagina that I don't think anyone needs to ask me now. But there's so many other types of trans people. We're not all the same, and we don't all share the same journey and story.

So I don't know why a lot of trans women, you know, a lot of the time it's because they're scared of the surgery. It's a very daunting, scary surgery. My dad was with me when I had mine done, and it was horrendous, not just for me, but obviously for him. It shouldn't matter what's in between your legs. It doesn't define you. Your pull, like you are a man,

but whether you have a penis or a vagina, I'm not going to see you any differently. Chris, you were there to, support Ella through the procedure. It was the first procedure I had out of everything. I had down below, then a year later my breast, and then two, three years ago I had my face done. But my dad was with me for that first operation.

I was 20. 2000 to 15. Yeah, not only 21. Yeah. Okay. It was hard. It was brutal. Because a lot of people had said from when I did start to research,

oh, you'll wake up and it will be like euphoric. Like you'll be like, I am a woman now. And because you put that pressure on yourself that once you've woken up, what, just because I've suddenly had, you know, a vagina done, I'm going to feel more of a woman. And I couldn't get my head around it. So I thought, maybe that's how I'll feel.

And I didn't, I didn't feel that. I just felt pain. I couldn't walk. It was, it was graphic. It was awful. So the reality is, and this isn't the case for everyone if anyone is watching and obviously having it done or on the waiting list.

Best thing I ever did, but I was so young and I hadn't prepared myself mentally for the pain and how life-changing it was. And there was so much emphasis on you're going to wake up and feel like a woman. I already felt like a girl anyway. I've always felt like a girl. Having that didn't really make me feel any difference. So I was a bit let down. From it.

I'm curious though. So, Chris, you're with her the entire time. What was your experience? as a parent going through this process. I think we got there the day before you had it done, didn't you? So we just went there and just found a room and just got some tea, didn't we? And it was a bit surreal, really. And then the next morning sort of said goodbye to you

and he went down on the thing. But then I knew as soon as I said goodbye, there was no turning back. It wasn't the case of, oh, I've changed your mind. I want to go back as a boy, I knew that was the final thing. So I thought it could hardly get 100% better or 100% worse. And obviously it's all good now. But at the time, I thought if she wakes up and says, I've made a mistake, it's too late.

It's too late. But there was no telling you any different. We didn't try and talk you out of it. But we just said, is it you sure that's what you want? So, yeah, and I just, yeah, I just. yeah I just left her and went off and had some food and just walked back and they went back later and it was

yeah she was just a wiped out really completely wiped out she couldn't even hardly speak let her mean well you could get out of bed could you but um yeah that was when it hit me really I think it is and I knew that was only the start of it really

it was not the like the like I said wake up with your bits done and then it's all playing sailing because it's not it's not it's just but it's the start if that's what you want it's a start it's a start yeah it's a start but but but now

Ella I have to ask you that I know I believe that it's it's it's around this time where another event happens in in your life so here here are the specific stats uh

And this is, this is, this is alarming. And this is a UK stat in the past year, over half of the LGBTQ plus young people, which is 58% seriously considered attempting suicide and nearly one out of five. That's 19% attempted suicide. This is significant. And this happened to you. So it was, um, I'd had. down, I'd have my general reassignment surgery. The year later, I'd had my breast stem.

I just was out all the time, hanging out with the wrong people, just going out and getting drunk. And I guess that strained my relationship with mum and dad, but especially my mum. We would just bicker a lot. And I was, you know, being intimate with guys and just, it was dangerous. I remember one day my dad said to me, like, I'm scared that you're going to be found in a ditch, like you come home and you've obviously had someone not standing. It was dangerous.

The way I lived my life is dangerous, but I didn't care. I was in this bit of a self-destruct state of mind. And I went to Ibiza and it was like I just went mad and I was drinking and I was doing drugs for the first time. Then I came back and it really did hit me then. And I just took loads of tablets from the bathroom cabinet under the sink. There was loads of tablets. And I took a picture of everyone.

And I just took certain things, put it in a suitcase. And then I went to go to my car. And the plan was that I was going to obviously do take these tablets and then just drive into something. Did you announce that to your family at all? Or no, you were just telling them goodbye, but you knew what you were attempting to do. Yeah.

And you were saved by your family. My brother, really, who we didn't have much a relationship. shit then. So then Chris, how do you, once, you know, I think this could be helpful for so many parents as well as that when you realized this was happening, that your child was attempting to take their life, what do you do? I mean, what did you do? I mean, let's, we won't even preach. We'll just say, what, what did you do? What was your, what were your thoughts? And then what did you actually action? What did you do? Well, we, I mean, we had a count. I mean, we had a Canc have come round straight away, didn't we?

It's like two o'clock in the morning the same night. Yeah, my brother rang the crisis team. And we were just basically frightened to leave her, really. But we kept telling her how much we loved her, but it was never enough. It was just never enough. We just, you just, yeah, we just wanted to help you, but you didn't want to help yourself, did you? So how do you help someone who doesn't want to help themselves? I think you've just got, just be there for them

and just reassure them that it's going to get better and it's not as bad as they think. I know you didn't want to know at a time, but now you can look back and think, obviously it wasn't the right thing to do, but yeah, it's a funny situation to be in. You don't expect to think you could have lost your kid before you. You don't want to go before, you don't want your children to go before you.

So it was, and then you think to yourself, well, is it something we've done wrong? we let her down but I don't think I ever did or we did me and mo I think it was a lot

of undoubt with trauma that I had in this I didn't you and I used to do therapy which I had to do as part of my two years lived experience

before surgery I didn't really use it the way I would have done now I didn't open up like I was just you know I I'm Ella and I just want my surgery You just thought there's a formality to go through to get the end result.

And Chris, I said, like, what do you do? How do you do it? But what you just said is textbook in terms of how you hold space for someone, right? Because there's technically, there's three ways that you hold space. One is that you allow that person to talk. So you listen to that person. That's one. Secondly, is you validate their feelings. And then third is you don't try to fix, but you just make sure that they know that you are there to support them.

just doing that hold space for someone and that by itself can help to change the dial. And then on top of it, someone from the family called the Crisis Center, right, which is incredibly important as well. So I think those things that you did, it may not feel significant, but it is everything, everything that someone needs in a moment of crisis. But I'm curious, from that moment, that was a very low point, right? how do you change it around? How do you make that transition? Because there are so many people who would love to get to that place of self-worth and happiness

that you're in now. There's so many parents who would love to be able to reconcile with their child and have a strong relationship. How'd you do it? You've just got to work at it and not give up. I mean, so many people get divorced now because it's easy option. Say, oh, but it's not working.

Let's get divorced. But you just got to work at it. You just got to work for it. it. It took time. Like I said, the fact we sit here now, like, you know, we have this love for each other and this bond. Which we always had a love for each other.

Nothing's ever changed. No, but the bond, I wouldn't say, was always there. And that we didn't have that closeness and my dad wasn't as emotional as he is now. We wouldn't talk openly like we do now. You both mention work. You have to put the work in. Can you give some examples of what is that work?

I mean, clearly, I think, going through these traumatic moments and coming out the other side, that's work in itself. Are there any moments that happen where you thought, okay, this is a moment of growth for us. And it could even be for you, Chris, like a moment of growth in that time. Just doing things, normal things,

like a family does. Just going out and like a family meal, and it's not, because before it used to be, you'd sort of wear things and I'd say, go into quite a posh restaurant. You can't wear that. And you would say, I'm wearing, this is why I'm wearing it.

And then you would go there or you're on edge. And you'd just think, I wish you wouldn't have worn that. But now you, I think you consider, now you say, before I even say, don't worry, I've bought a nice dress, my tits aren't going to be hanging out. So just relax. So that's a moment of like, it's sinking in a bit, you know? Respecting other people.

Yeah, but before you say, I'm wearing this, if you don't let me wear this or not coming. And it's like, and then you would just, I would not come or you would do it. And then it would just be tension. Yeah. I would say, I guess I've kind of gone through a second puberty. I've had to get to know who I am and what I like. and who I am as a person.

And that does take time. Whereas most people go from like 16 to 80 and have their fun to whatever they're doing. And then they start to realize who they are. Whereas for me, it was like I went from being Evan to Ella. Right. And it was a bit like, whoa, I don't know, you know, who I am or what I want. And at the end of the day, what people got to remember is who are transitioning. It's not just a person transitioning.

The whole family are transitioning. Yeah. With you. and what support is there for the parents? Well, we had none. We had none at all. This is something I want to fight for in terms of the government. We went to the doctors or a man who went to the doctors and asked

and they said, well, I don't really got any information. Best thing I'd say is just go on the internet. So if I was setting up something now to help, say, transgender people or children or adults, whoever it is, it's the support for the people around them. Because if that person who's transitioned hasn't got to support, it just means it must be so hard. The person who's transitioning, if their family get the help they need,

they can see what they could be doing or what they should be doing or what shouldn't be doing, and that process could help them and to help everybody. Yes, yes. All over the board. I agree. Yes. So currently, though, you're saying that there's,

so you had no support. That's still the case. And there's still the case. I looked into this because it's one thing that I'd love to change is obviously NHS funding is being cut all of the time. And so with me, it is I got funded to my surgeries. I've got funded to my laser hair removal and my therapy. And there's some voice coaching. That was all for me.

There's no current funding to give therapy to family, spouses, partners, family members or siblings of trans people. This therapy is solely for them. And even though I used to try and get my mom and dad to come with me, so we could all, I guess, talk, it would only ever be me. They'd have to wait. You know what's clear is I can see that this is both a passion bubbling in both of your hearts is to not just talk about this, but to ensure that the support is there for others going through this process. Chris, I'm curious.

When you think about the fact that you are a father, right? to this beautiful transgender woman, okay? What does that mean to you? And the reason why I say what does that mean to you is because I think that there's lots of noise in the public. There's multiple sides. One side is you should be incredibly proud. You should be, you should be cheering from the mountaintops.

There's another side that says you should be disgraced. how could this happen? How could you let this happen? Right? And then you have everything in between. What is your experience? My experience is as long as they're happy, I don't care what people say about me or whatever.

It's just I'm proud of what she's doing or done. Nothing else matters really. There are some narrow-minded people out there. but hopefully they're a minority yeah so you just got I try not to read the comments

because it's too upset it sometimes do you have a message to any any of those people which I doubt those are the people who listen to we need to talk but they just need to look at themselves if that's all they've got in their life

to red a corn make fun out of other people and put other people down they must have a sad life must have a sad life and then everyone's here for you only get one shot at this just live your life

you know one thing I have to say personally and this must happen tenfold to you now that you know I've become friends with Ella I find myself as the defender of the transgender

gender community among my friendship circle. And I do have friends, and these are friends. And I mean, who will say, no, I said she. They said, no, no, no, you meant to say he. You know, and I have to correct them. And even correct them to say, this is not a joke. This is not a joke. So if this is happening to me, I can't imagine.

what's what's what happens in you know what's happened in your social circles through the years yeah and the defense that that you've had to put up yeah you pretend not to hear things or see things yeah yeah hmm does it hurt yeah yeah yeah there is so much i would call it ignorance but then also hate they hate because they don't understand it's easier to hate and it is to try to understand it, I think. That's the easy option. Yeah. What is going to stand out to me when we walk away from these seats is when you talked about how

proud you were of Ella. It was him saying that I was the bravest person that he's ever met. I'm glad you corrected me because you used the word brave and that's what you said, Chris, brave. That's different. So you're right. So what I'm curious about is Why?

Just getting out there and doing it, even getting up on the stage in front of You introduced someone, didn't you? It goes aloud, 50,000. I couldn't even, I couldn't do that. Did a little trans shout out in front of 50,000 hoopah. Okay, okay, okay.

Just to do that, really, and just put yourself out there as brave. I mean, there's people that go, through life and they transition and they just want to be left alone and just get on with their life which is fair enough that's what they want to do but to do it in the public eye and then obviously some things you say people like something that you don't but to get out there and do it it's just just so brave that's that's it's just brave yes does ella inspire you yeah isn't that something to have your own child inspire you

you. Yeah. Yeah. I'm not to care what people think. Yeah. And then Ella, how proud of your father are you? Thinking about how, you know, because he's had a transformation. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um, if you told me when I was 17,

that point in my life, which was, you know, not the best, that my mum and my dad would be the biggest advocates for me. I probably wouldn't have believed you. Like, I know my mum and dad loved me unconditionally. They loved me when I was ever and I know they loved me now. And I really want that for all the other trans and queer people out there. But there was a time where I didn't think that would be the case. And so my dad is literally, my mother, dad and my family at Walkin proved that

with time, if you've got unconditional love for someone, whether it's your child or your parent, then love always wins. Yeah. You know, I get so many chills listening to you both talk about each other because this story could have gone in many different directions. Yeah. It's the love that you have for each other that regardless of the circumstance keeps you together

and will always keep you two together, you know. And I think that's something that is, that's all we want in life. You know, you think about it. It's so simple. That's all we need. And it costs nothing. You know. I'd take enough deal.

I definitely want to just go back to support for parents of trans kids. What advice would you give those parents? Just listen. And just listen to. time. It might not be what you want to hear, but just give them that opportunity to express themselves and just give them that support. Yeah. Once again, well said, holding space. You're a master at holding space, Chris. I was trying to keep track through this conversation of the procedures. Yeah. Do you know all of the procedures? Yes, I do. Okay. What's the list?

So, and I know the cost too, it's a lot to be a woman. Oh my gosh. Can you give the cost? Yeah, sure. So the first thing was... Do you know the cost, Chris? Roughly. Roughly, okay.

Gender reassignment surgery is 25,000. I've had two breast augmentations, and they were about five each, so that's 10. So that's 35. Okay. And then I had a nose job. That was five. 5,000 for the nose job. Yeah.

Okay. And then I had. had my, the amount I spent on fillers and Botox over the years is at least 10,000 over the last 10 years. I've been experimenting with fillers. I'm probably the most natural looking I've ever been. I try to have as much taken out as I could. When we did maths, my lips were terrible. Someone should have told me. They did actually tell me my parents were like, stop with the filler. But if you look at, you're at the lip work. Oh, I had a lip lift and a nose job. So all together, probably about 8,000.

Okay. So I wasn't happy with having masculine features. And I didn't want to keep getting injections because it costs a lot over time. And yeah, and I was like, well, get it done permanently. I'll have surgery. So I had eight things and I had my Adam's apple shaved. Okay.

I had a fat taken from my stomach and put it in my cheeks and my under eyes. Had liposuction on my stomach. I had titanium minty implants, put into my temples just here because I had really big hollow dense. Oh wow. Okay. Yeah, so it makes my face more rounder and heart shaped

rather than looking quite gone, like skeleton. I had a brow lift. I had an eye lift. An eye lift? Yeah. I had my hairline lowered. So a chunk of skin removed and sewed back up to make my forehead smaller.

And then finally I had a forehead shave. So they shave your brow bone and your forehead to be slightly more curved than a man's, which is quite flat. Basically, it's facial feminization surgery, which is to feminize the face so that I don't have the masculine traits or features that men could have. I'd done all of the small changes and tweaks. It doesn't sound small to change how I look.

What was the total cost on all of this? Chris knows. Probably about 80, 90K, isn't it? Yeah, that's what it feels, almost 100,000. Some of it was the National Health, which I'm grateful for. Yeah. But they're more strict now. So everything cosmetic I've had to do, I pay for.

You pay for it. And you are done. You sure you're done? Yes, I hope for. Yeah. There's nothing worse than watching your child go for all that. Yeah. And then you send a picture sent through after,

and it's like they've been hit by a train, you know? Yeah. But one thing I will say, about the national health, everyone's locks at national health, but they were brilliant. Yeah, they were. I know that there's so many private practices that want to do what they can to help trans people and transition. The reality is it's so expensive that most people can't afford to go privately.

And obviously some people choose to do hormones, some people choose to have surgery. But it's just so expensive. And the unemployment rate within the trans community is so high because people don't take you seriously. People don't give you jobs. People don't give you a chance. because of the stigma that comes with being trans or how you look. Yes. So I had this in the research.

Transgender people, the employment rate is 49.2%. So the wider population has an employment rate of 74.8%. So you could see. 25% is. Yeah, that is substantial. Transgender people are 81% more likely to be unemployed than cisgender peers and 66% more likely to be on disability benefits. Yeah. The people that are trans aren't going up, we're just coming out. So people are like, God, there's more trans people nowadays. That's not the case. We've always existed. There's always been the same amount. People now just feel more comfortable and confident enough to say it. And so where they're coming forward for treatment or applying to go to the gender clinic or the NHS, that list is then getting longer and longer and then funding is being cut. So I know the NHS is a long way to go, but they were.

amazing with me and my family. Yes. The government that we need to change, darling. Fair enough. Fair enough. So now it's time for a last question. You both get it because you're both guests here. So the last question is my favorite question. And this is it. You've had some amazing conversations throughout your life with many people. So when you think back to the most memorable conversation that you've had, who was it with? And what did you learn? Do you know what I'm going to say?

And I'm not just saying this. You said to me when we did Televskia datum, it's gone viral. It's that, it's that combination we had where you said, Ella, I don't think you realise what it's not said how much, how amazing you are and what, you know, you hold your head high through all the shit that I get, basically. That is a conversation.

I've got it pinned on my Instagram, because it does mean a lot to me, that I think because of your support, openly, publicly, a lot of people changed their mindset about how I was viewed or how they saw me

because of you and your kind words. Just, like, somebody said it was not a rehearsal. Just live your life. Yeah, yeah. It's not. That's all you need. I like it.

Can I say this? This is what really stands out. This is my closing. Listening to you both talk, You know, we just listened to Ellie, talked about all these procedures, right? And you said, I've had everything changed. But when I look at you two visually, you know, when I see you,

you've had everything changed except your eyes. I knew you're going to say that. Beautiful blue eyes. And I look and I see. I got my dad's like, yeah. You've got your beautiful blue eyes. Look at that. And, you know, it's, and to me, I think it's almost poetic because, you know, you think about how you've always had your daughter.

Right. You've always, you've always had her. And what you've done, Chris, is I think you've shown this incredible resilience in fighting against this narrative, this script that many men have been handed. And I think you're showing love through strength. and you're teaching others, you're teaching me. And through this conversation, you're going to teach many others about the power of love,

but also how, what is love? Love is listening. Supporting. Supporting. Just being there. Just being there, right? And you are an example of love. So thank you.

Thank you. It was phenomenal to have you here. Thank you. If there's a part two, we're not even inviting Ella. You're just coming to part too. Yeah, but thank you so much for being here. Ella, thank you so much.

Thank you. You continue to teach me. For some reason, we continue to keep reentering each other's lives. And I think this is going to happen for the rest of our lives, right? I think we're inevitably attached to each other. But I am happy about that. You know, I'm proud of that. So thank you.

Thank you for being here. Thank you very much for having me. And thank you for having my dad. Like to do this with him, just hopefully going to help a lot of people. And I feel better already for kind of saying certain things and hopefully my dad does too. And this episode is dedicated to him.

Yeah, before we all start going again. I'm proud. I'm proud. I'm proud, is the word of that person. And my family, obviously. Yes, yes. Well, we're proud of you. And Chris, we're proud of you. Thank you.

Yeah, thank you. Thank you so much. It's Ella, like I've never seen her. I've worked with Ella and known Ella now for at least four years. Never heard these stories. This is one of the things that I find so special about this podcast is that you have guests who are willing to come, wanting to come, not just willing, but wanting to come

to share pieces of their life that they held so sacred. Her father, Chris, we have to give it up for Chris. We always debate what does love mean. I think he embodies a version of love that is incredibly healthy, and that is, I'm going to hold space for you. But he's done that with Ella, and as a result, she's now emerging as this beautiful butterfly. If you could share this entire conversation with someone,

do it at bay and why. A friend who specifically called Ella, he, or him. and set it to make a statement, I'm going to share this conversation with him. I think about there's so many areas of my life where I say, I wish I had an ally in this. And now to hear Ella outline, okay, here's where I need an ally. Now I know, okay, here are areas where I need to step up.

So for me, it's now more important that I express my allyship through action. And I will. You know, I will. And I think these conversations helped to add more motivation and inspiration for that. Many of the stories that Ella told us was about physical transformation, but ultimately it was this emotional, spiritual transformation that was most profound in changing her life. And I think that's a lesson that everyone can take is.

that we can change our physical representation, but without changing anything inner, specifically emotional and spiritual, then the physical has no impact.