We Need To Talk with Paul C. Brunson - Mel Robbins "The Let Them Theory Changed My Marriage!" Watch This Before Breaking Up!

Episode Date: July 8, 2025

This is an interview like no other. Mel Robbins opens up about overcoming crippling anxiety, undiagnosed ADHD, and childhood trauma with the life-changing 5 Second Rule. At 41, she was $800,000 in debt, unemployed, and waking up with a feeling of full-body dread every single day. Mel shares the one rule that became her turning point - helping her get out of bed and rebuild her life from the ground up. She opens up about how the "Let Them" theory saved her 29-year marriage, and how she faced identity struggles and mental health challenges that were holding her back. Now one of the most influential voices in personal growth and self-improvement, Mel reflects on the pivotal moments that shaped her journey. With over a billion video views and multiple bestselling books, Mel shares how she transformed her life and how you can do the same. Whether you're navigating a long-term relationship, struggling with anxiety, or simply looking to reclaim your power, this episode offers real, actionable insights for anyone ready to change their life. Follow me here: https://www.instagram.com/needtotalk  https://www.tiktok.com/@weneedtotalkpod  Support Mel here: Instagram: https://g2ul0.app.link/TtCoupouOUb TikTok: https://g2ul0.app.link/3kBIBVruOUb Let Them: https://g2ul0.app.link/3EslE4vuOUb  (00:00) Intro (00:52) Mel's Upbringing in 1960s USA (09:14) Mel's Attachment Style and Childhood Trauma (18:49) Mel's Experience of University (27:08) Mel's First Legal Job and the Lessons It Taught Her (42:12) Shopify Ad (43:15) Tinder Ad (44:25) How Mel Met Her Husband Chris (52:35) How Mel's ADHD Affected Her Marriage (1:03:32) How the 'Let Them' Theory Helped Mel's Marriage (1:06:24) Indeed Ad (1:07:36) How Mel and Chris Navigated a Dip in Their Marriage from 2008–14 (1:12:58) How Mel Changed Careers (1:16:38) The Success of Mel's 2011 TED Talk (1:22:19) Roles Within Mel's Marriage with Chris (1:28:04) A Message from Mel's Daughter (1:31:54) Mel's Thoughts on Motherhood (1:36:09) Some Parting Thoughts on the 'Let Them' Theory from Mel (1:43:07) Most Memorable Conversation (1:47:03) Paul's Takeaways Sponsored By: Shopify: www.shopify.co.uk/needtotalk  Tinder: https://tinder.com/en-GB  Indeed: https://indeed.com/weneedtotalk  ♥️Get The Love Journal now: https://bit.ly/lovejournal-mp  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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So when your mind won't switch off, you've got something that can help. Erasing thoughts and restless nights won't stand a chance. Find Ollie's sleep solutions for the whole family at ollie.com. That's OLLL-L-Y.com. I have watched countless Mel Robbins interviews. You can change anything in five seconds. I have never seen one like this. I needed help, but I didn't know what kind of help I needed.

I feel like, you know, I'm part of this slipstream of something bigger that's happening right now. We've just hit 200,000 subscribers, and honestly, we're blown away. This started as a space for honest conversations and the fact that so many of you have shown up means everything. If you haven't subscribed yet, it's free, takes just a second, and it helps us grow. this community and bring you even more powerful episodes. Speaking of, let's get into it. Mel Robbins, we need to talk. Yes, we do.

All right. I have some things on my mind. Do you? Yes, Jill. Give me some questions to ask you. We got to talk about it. You're good. You're already deflecting. Look at that.

You're already deflecting. Can we go to 1968? Mm-hmm. All right. And the reason why I want to go to 1968 is not only were you born, Yep. In this year. But what strikes me is that was also the year that Martin Luther King was assassinated.

That was also RFK. Really? Was assassinated, yes. Was taken from us in, yeah, it wasn't as it was. You're the first person that's ever connected the dots between the year I was born and those tragedies in history. Yeah. So it's the aftermath of. of those tragedies because you were born at the end of the year.

Yeah. Okay. And I know it's Kansas City. Yes. Okay. Kansas City at that point, it's a hotbed. I mean, you're talking about civil rights, fallout. You're talking about riots.

So walk me through the first few years of your life, what was, how did society shape, not just you, because you're a little girl, right? Yeah. But the decisions that your parents were making. at that time. Okay, so first of all, I just have to say I'm one of these people that have so few memories of my childhood, but I do have one. I have one that came to me in sort of one of these meditated guided therapy sessions that took me all the way back, and I had this vision of being in a little, like, I don't know, like a kid sits in a stroller, and I could see my little feet.

Okay. And then I look up and it's... clouds and a bright blue sky, and then I look straight ahead, and there's my mom. And she has this kind of shag haircut. It's the late 60s. Looks like a typical woman that, you know, would be like a big Beatles fan, right? You know, the kind of Argyll sweater or the short skirt. My dad has a big perm and a mustache. And what struck me about this vision is they were so young. My mom was 19 when she had me. And, you know, the thing about growing up, the thing about kind of the context, I don't remember the cultural or the historical backdrop, mainly because I was just a little kid in it and my parents were just working and trying to pay their bills. And I was surrounded

by just a community of people that weren't my relatives. Do you see what I mean? Yeah, but I find that insightful because even today when I look at your podcast, which is incredible, you have a diverse. I mean, the guests are diverse. Of course. You know, but not every podcast is, is this way. And I always wondered, I thought, you know, where did that come from? This, this notion of I am, I can see importance in everyone. And this makes sense. But also I hear that you talk about, you know, you're proud of the Midwestern values. Yes. That was instilled. So what would you qualify as Midwestern values. Well, you know, I don't even know that these are Midwestern.

I think it's been marketed that way. I personally feel like these are the values that are hardwired into human beings. Okay. Family. Connection. Community. Service. Kindness.

I believe we are all aware of the better nature inside all of us. That we all feel good when we are in service of others. We feel good when we operate in a world. a way where you are connected to something that seems bigger than you, whether it's a faith practice or it is a service practice, and you are a part of that. And my parents did not preach that. My parents moved through life that way. My mom always was involved in Service League, always involved in the little, like, Methodist Church that we went to, always involved in the school, always involved in the community. And since my dad was a doc,

there were no minute clinics back then. And so if anybody like got roughed up or tripped or twisted a knee, it was like our kitchen was the local minute clinic. And people were constantly stopping by. He was also the dock for the high school football team. He was also the hometown dock for the Muskegon Lumberjacks, which was the Farm League for the Pittsburgh Penguins. I got dragged to more hockey games as a little kid sitting in those stands

watching people like ring the bells and do the horns. and my dad would shuffle out in his loafers on the ice to stitch up a Canadian guy who didn't want to go back. And so I just watched. You can learn anything from anybody. We are all on this road of life together. And there are times where you're going to be a couple steps of me. And I can learn from you because, you know, our friend Ed Millett always says you are best equipped to help the person you once were. And so there are things that you and Jill have gone through with your boys.

where you could turn around since I'm walking behind you and say, hey, Mel, you know, if Oaks struggling with this, that, or the other thing, you know, you might want to try this because we've been through it. Right. And so I think if you go through life believing that inside of everyone, you know, this might not be true for 20% of the people. Our friend Stephen Bartlett told me that a therapist once told him that in the world, 20% of people are just mean, awful people. probably because of what had been done to him.

Right. I think David, have you read Bad Boys? No. So David Bus has written the evolutionary psychologist. He wrote that roughly, up to 15% of the population are just awful. Awful. Awful. Yes.

Blank their parents. Awful, awful, awful. And then there are like another 20% of people that are just, yeah, they're kind of lost their way, but they absolutely could be great people. And then 60% of people are reasonable, well-meaning, kind people. Yes. Right? The 15% that are coming to join us have just been stressed out

or been handed a lousy deal or got screwed over. We're going to find their way back. And so I think from a very young age, saw two people going through life in a way where they were tied to the community, they were interested in other people, they were giving of their time and of their energy. And I saw how much they got.

up back from it. Like, you know, since my podcast has exploded in popularity around the globe, oftentimes I'll be asked about the way I do things as if it is a shtick or a technique in order to try to game some thing. And I can't express enough that one of the reasons why I am so giving and I am so interested in other people and I hold everybody that I meet in a high regard, that I believe that the janitor and the public bathroom deserves your respect and deserves to be acknowledged just as much as the person that is the CEO of the company that you work for. In fact, I believe they deserve it more because they are cleaning up after you. And they are often walked by without even being regarded. And no human being should endure that.

And so I go through life that way, not only because this is just what I believe, but it's also because when you are kind of other people, people, when you say thank you to other people, when you give your time and energy to other people, when you lean in and realize everybody has a story to tell. Everybody has remarkable lessons. If you've ever had that experience where you're riding in an Uber and you take the time to talk to the person driving you, especially if they have immigrated to the country that you're in from another country, you will find they were probably an engineer or a dentist or some other profession or have a degree you had no idea and this is what they were doing to fill the gaps because that's what happens in people's lives.

Right. Again, so much you can learn from other people. And so I think that's where it comes to. Absolutely. Sounds like a very secure, you know, in terms of an attachment style, a very secure environment. Well, I think so. But, you know, look, I think everybody's parents can only give you what they have to give. Like, I don't know if I have a very secure attachment style.

I think I have an anxious one. Interesting. Yeah, I really do. Because I feel that I'm the kind of person that needed. a lot more just emotional stability. And there are times where my mom or dad's mood, my mom in particular, would be completely unpredictable, which is normal.

But as a child, you don't know how to process it. And some kids are more sensitive than others. And for me, there was a huge defining moment in my past that happened in fourth grade, where we all went away on a trip on this family ski vacation. So we're in this bunk room and this rented house. with all these other families. And I wake up in the middle of the night

and there's a kid on top of me. Now, here's what I say about this. There are horrific things that happened to people. This was a very traumatizing thing, but not a serious one. And trauma is very personal. And I wake up and this kid is on top of me and it's dark and I'm confused

and I don't know what's happening and I'm only wearing a nightgown. And for crying out loud, I'm in fourth grade. And I just kind of, of roll over and disassociate. Like, I'm out of my body. I don't even know how anything ended. Like, I don't know if I just, like, push this person.

I don't know if the person left. Like, I don't remember. But I do remember the next morning, I woke up, and I was under the sheets, and I had this full body feeling of dread. Full body. And the mistake in the human wiring, I think this is so unfair. This was explained to me by Dr. Paul Conti from Stanford. Yeah.

And so famous, famous psychiatrist wrote this incredible book about trauma. He basically said that little kids, when something happens to them, or when adults are in a bad mood, mom comes home, throws the purse down. Dad comes home, slams the door, starts drinking. We are missing this wiring in our brains and things. body called attribution. Okay. The ability to attribute someone's bad behavior or someone's bad mood to them. What children do because we can't, we don't have attribution yet, I don't even know

if I'm saying it right, is we attribute everything to us. Yes, yes. So you wake up or I woke up and I immediately feel the sense of dread, which is a mentally healthy response to having something like that happen. Right? Yes. Because you're experiencing the, like, negative programming of the experience. And then I think I've done something wrong.

Right. I think I'm going to get in trouble. Exactly. So you don't want to tell anyone. Correct. Yes. Correct. And I hide under the sheets until all the kids leave.

And I think they're all done with breakfast because I hear them scuffling out the door to go ski. And then I creep downstairs and my mom is standing at the stucke. and she turns around and says, how'd you sleep? And at that moment, I look and the kid's standing right there. Oh, my God. And I freeze.

And I say, fine. And I'm going to tell you something. That moment, and it is crazy how you can have one moment arrest your ability to evolve beyond it subconsciously until you go back and reprogram.

that moment in your body and your mind. And so I just said fine because I knew if I started crying and I pointed at him, she'd probably take that spatula and hit him in the next week. I didn't know what he was. I just didn't want to get in trouble. And I also felt like I had done something wrong and that I would get in trouble, which is not necessarily rational. But again, it's a child.

It's a child. Exactly. That's what we do. And so I think from this. that moment, I did not realize that that traumatic experience really made me kind of go into that hyper on edge state. And what we know about everybody is that if you have any kind of adverse conditions in your childhood where you were experiencing things like poverty or abuse or emotional neglect or racism or violence or just unpredictable personalities in your

house or homelessness, it can put you in a state of hypervigilance. Yes. And for me, that's when it turned on. And I also believe that everybody has had it turned on at some point. Oh, wow. Interesting. I do. As a child. Yes.

And if not as a child, I live my life today with the belief that the majority of adults that I meet are in that. state right now. And if it's not because of unresolved stuff from childhood, it is because of the overwhelming amount of uncertainty and change that human beings went through during the pandemic and lockdowns. And now it is exacerbated by all of the headlines and the layoffs and the recession and the rise in hatred and bigotry that we're seeing. And so I, I, I, operate in a way. And this has also been confirmed by Dr. Aditi Neurokars research at Harvard Medical School, who's one of the leading experts on stress from a medical standpoint. She says that 83% of people based on her research are in a state of chronic stress, which means you're

amygdala. Yes. And your fighter flight, on-edge nervous system is running the show. Yes. How do you then experience life at this? Because I'm assuming you don't tell anyone. No, because I don't have the words for it. You don't have the words for it. You don't even We didn't talk about this stuff back then. What are you talking about? Yeah. We didn't. So how do you believe that that hypervigilant state that you then entered? How did that shape your adolescence? I really think the experience of that kid on top of me, and I've never, and this is a complete layman's interpretation. But I personally, believe that that experience also accelerated my interest in relationships sexually. Because I,

by the time I was 13, I had a boyfriend who was two years older. I was sexually active with him for, by the time I was 14, we were in a really committed partnership for those two years, but it was way too soon. And I transferred the attachment that I should have had, with my parents to being in a romantic relationship. Yes. Like that became the anchor. And the interesting thing is that if you attach yourself to other people, what happens in the cycle of that relationship is, you know, you have the attraction phase, which is so distracting.

It's so amazing. I mean, basically doing laundry together is like the most hot first date you've ever been on because your attraction, attraction, attraction. Right. But what happens is you then are in a relationship for a year and the relationship settles into a flow and a rhythm. Yes. And guess what comes back?

Yes. The anxiety. Absolutely. Correct. Yeah. And then you start to think it's the person because you now feel this agitation when it's actually the underlying unresolved stuff that you haven't looked at. Yes.

And it's your own uneasiness. Yes. Your own engine that's revving. Yes. And you just distract, like we all do it, you distract yourself with the booze or you distract yourself at being busy at work or you distract yourself with a new relationship or you distract yourself with porn or whatever it else it is that has you numb out and not tune back in. And for me, it was this cycle of like, just got to be in a new relationship, got to be in a new

relationship. Like, I look back on poor Mel. Oh, my God. And the poor people I met during that period of my life, because they were all, that. ICE people, they just met the train wreck version of me that had not sorted my stuff out or even understood all of the things that I was wrestling with. Let me tell you, I don't have a lot of female friends from college because I was one of those chicks that always had a boyfriend. And I look at my daughters and I am so proud and excited for them because they have these big, like, groups of women that they connected with. and male friends that they connected with. But I was so in this pattern of needing to be attached to a person for safety and for security that I missed out, I believe, on a lot of what the high school years and the college and even the law school years could have been like.

What's your thought in terms of the future? What are you thinking professionally what you would like to do? God, I have no idea. You're just there. I'm just drinking and having sex and being in a relationship with somebody and getting very stoned. I almost flunked out my sophomore fall because my best friend and I, whose name, I'm not going to like announce here, but we went to law school together too. We signed up for this engineering class. I have no idea why we signed up for an engineering class.

We heard the professor was really fun and amazing. And then we went past the point where you could drop. Our solution, once we realized we were completely hosed, was to basically get baked every day. That was it. Yes. Like, I don't even know how we made it through that semester. I squandered the opportunity at Dartmouth. I really did.

So at university, I also keep in mind, by the way, I don't know I have anxiety. Yes. I have no idea. I have this traumatic experience that is still forcing me to wake up every morning and feel dread, and I don't know why, which creates anxiety. I have no idea that I have pretty profound ADHD that's undiagnosed, and I also don't know that I'm dyslexic.

And so I am sitting on. a gigantic casserole of things that when they go unaddressed, it just creates not only more anxiousness, but a

lot more dysfunction and a lot more self-hatred. And so I am caught in this soup while I'm relatively high functioning because I'm at a great college, I am in a relationship, I am

getting through school, but I personally do not ever really feel like I'm present. I don't feel like I'm giving it my all. I'm constantly beating myself up because I just can't seem, you know, those periods in life where you just, like, it's like you can't get into the rhythm of drinking too much. I just, the whole thing, I hate the person that I was, even though I can have a lot of compassion for myself in college and law school. I've never been to a reunion because I don't want to go back and actually have to feel the way that I felt or pretend that those were really positive years in my life. It wasn't the school's fault. It was just a fact that I was a person that needed help, but I didn't know what kind of help I needed.

So even if we had photos of you during that time or you went back to visit the school, those feelings would come back. Oh, of course. Like, I've been back to Dartmouth. I've been back to Boston College Law School. I barely remember being there. Barely. And again, also because you and I grew up at a time where if you were going to take a photo, you had to get a camera and then you had to take the film out. And then you had to get it like.

Yes. Right? Process. Yes. Which costs money. Right. Then you go. And I didn't want to take the job in the cafe and use that money for that when I need a beer money.

So I, like, who had photos? Right. Right. That's true. And here's another thing. I want to normalize something. There's a lot of us that do, people walking around that don't have memories. Because if you're not present and if your nervous system isn't settled, the part of the brain

that stores long-term memories is not online. And so if you're somebody like that. like me where it frustrates a hell out of me that my best friend Jody, who I've known since fourth grade, she'll have been like, remember that time? You came to Central Michigan University and you and you visited me for the weekend and we did blah, and I'm like, I came to visit you? She's like, what do you mean? You don't remember that. I'm like, I don't remember going there. And it's the weirdest experience to have full periods of your life where you can't locate a memory. And the reason why is if You are in a state where you're the watcher and you're on edge or your stomach's going or you're in your head.

Like, what if this happens or what if that happens? Or did that person think this? Or, oh, God, what if I flunk it? You're not present to capture the memories. I'm sure they're in there somewhere. Right. But you're not. You know what's so fascinating about this is I have this conversation with Jill all the time because I'll say, I don't remember.

She'll say, where were you in that whole period of our life? I'll say, I don't even remember that. And I know I was there. I know I was being present. Yes. But it's interesting. Maybe I was the watcher in that moment. And it's just been taken offline.

Yeah. And it's somewhere in there because you can, you know, I've had experiences with the maps protocol and psychedelic guided therapy where it is extraordinary what you can go back and locate in the system and then put it in, you know, the storage system that allows you to recall it. One of the things that I think is unbelievable for our kids is that they have all of this record of all of the things that are happening. Like to be able, if I could look back and see all these photos, oh my gosh, I would probably recall being there. Yeah. And isn't it even incredible as a parent? Yes. We can go back and say, oh, this is what happens year one, year two, it's beautiful.

It's beautiful. You know, so Mel, college law school. A flushed right down to the toilet. It was disastrous. The real disastrous, law school. Law school. Law school was more disastrous than college. Way more.

How so? I just didn't know what else to do. And my dad said, well, if you don't know what to do, that's a great degree to get because they're going to train you to think. And you can use it for anything. And so I end up at Boston College. And I get there. And I have this realization.

The second I am there. this is actually the last place I want to be. And so I went through law school and really, really struggled because the amount of reading, the amount of writing, my brain does not work that way is very hard for me to get thoughts from here, like through the hand and get them all out. I processed everything clearly verbally. But I didn't know this yet. And there were none of the tools that we have today where you can talk. and dictate and it transcribes it and then you can edit it, which is a super easy hack for people that have trouble with that kind of processing.

Sure. And it was second year, I took a mock trial class and it was like a fish to water because there were no papers to write. It was all oral argument. It was a super small class so it didn't feel like a speech. We were on our feet all the time. We were talking through things all the time, so it didn't feel like performance. It just felt like talking.

Yes. And I realize now the reason why I'm a talker is because it's how I adapted through school in order to accommodate for the fact that I was having like real trouble with the writing. It was almost a mask. Yeah, completely. And there's a lot of research around this that people that are very successful that turn out to have some sort of learning difference in terms of the way that their brains are wired tend to adapt and develop a different superpower. as a way to work around all the things that are being expected of you. There's also a lot of very troubling and terrifying research about the number of people that go through life who are not diagnosed properly, who then end up being shuffled away from school and who end up in jail

or who end up unemployed or who end up not getting the support that they deserve. And that's a huge tragedy and a huge problem. Yes. And so I, even though, I wasn't diagnosed until I was 47 years old, I was lucky in that I somehow adapted. Yeah, you found that what clearly has become a zone of excellence for you. So then from there, you graduate. Yep. And then where do you go? I went to the public defender's office in New York City. All right. I worked for legal aid. All right. So that was, I think, an important position for you. Because you're representing the community at that point. It's incredible.

So what I'm curious about then is you seem to be finding yourself and your identity at that point. Well, you know what's interesting? You are giving me so much grace because I describe my life in two ways. Okay. I feel like that Looney Tunes cartoon. Yes. Is it Donald Daffy Duck who goes into the, he's sleepwalking? And he goes into a construction zone and he wanders up something.

And then he goes to step off the cliff and the beam falls. Yeah. And then he walks. That's how you see. That's what it felt like. But that's what it felt like. But I personally believe that there is a, if you're willing to look, not through the eyes of, did I deserve this suffering or like, why is this happening to me? but if you're willing to look for the lessons in all of it, there seems to be an order to the way that things turn out.

Because there was so many life-changing lessons in that job. And it was unlikely that that's the job that I would have gotten. Yes, I agree. And so there is that nudging of all the job. of the things kind of pushing you in a certain direction. And that's one of those core experiences, the three and a half years that I spent there, that fundamentally changed me forever. Yes. So when you think about the person you were at that time, who was Mel then? Well, when I walked into that job, I was a naive, but completely open-hearted, want to change the world.

really smart person that wanted to put her brain and her energy to use for good. I had so much to learn. Oh, my God. So much to learn. And when I think now about how little experience I had when you first walk into a courtroom. Yes. And you're representing another human being it's just jaw-dropping how not unprepared but just not experienced yet I was, you know? Right. So with the inexperienced, what were you most scared of at that moment in your life? Making a major mistake and having somebody go to prison that was innocent. Making a major mistake and doing something that costs somebody their freedom.

Making a major mistake and having somebody be sent upstate when they could have been held at Rikers closer to their family, like making a major mistake and having the guy who was buying drugs get actually convicted of the buy and bust, like for selling when they weren't. Like I, there was just this getting tossed into that experience. It was such a incredible wake-up call

of just how unfairly, life is at every level and this deep desire for it to be fair like it just it was heartbreaking honestly yeah i could see it you know i could see you carry that with you oh i do to this day yeah does what is there which one in particular stands out the most to you it's not one it's everything it's everything it's this realization that you know because of the schools that our kids go to. Like my kids went, go to public school, but they're really nice public schools and safe neighborhoods. They're surrounded by other kids and

families where it's, okay, you're going to finish school. You're either going to go into a trade or you're going to go into the military or you're going to go to a college, right? That's the example. Time and time again, my clients would reveal that they just expected to go to Rikers at some point because that was what the example was around them. And so there was this just deep discouragement that was clearly part of a larger structural system in America that bothered me deeply and I felt powerless to address the things that I felt were really wrong.

the quality of the schools, the just, there are just so many things. Yeah. You know, on that note, in full transparency, when I was in my late teens, going into early 20s, but I'd say late teens, I truly believe among my peers, the expectation was half of us are going to prison. A quarter of us are going to get shot and killed. And maybe a quarter of us makes it through. But that's, that was the expectation. And then as I had friends pass away, as I had friends get locked up, it was just like par for the course.

It wasn't shocked to the system. Right. You know what I mean? And I think of how sad that is for someone in their teens to think that that is the status quo, is that state. Well, it's not only that you internalize it, it's that the external systems around you, also look at you that way. And so I just felt the sense that, God, if only there was more support in communities. If only there were more support in school systems. If only some of my clients had been diagnosed with dyslexia or, you know, the real issues had been addressed when they were younger,

they wouldn't have felt so singled out at school and so stupid that they stopped going. If only there were after-school programs where because mom's working full-time and nobody's home, they've got a place to go with mentors and a thing to eat and somebody to help with homework. Yes. If only. Like you can see how so many things that happen in your childhood. There are a lot of people that overcome those circumstances, but I dream of being in a world where people don't have to.

and it just seemed profoundly unfair to be able to start to trace back all of the obstacles that somebody was facing, that we have the ability in today's day and age to actually solve an address. Like, I don't think we need another social media company. Yeah, I'm with you. I feel like the chasing of profits has led to a level of depravity of values that is profoundly troubling. And so for me as a public defender, what people don't realize is that that's not a job about getting guilty people off. That's a job about constitutional rights and the dignity that human beings deserve no matter what they've been accused of doing. And one of the core experiences for me is that, like, keep in mind, if you're a public defender, the person doesn't pick you.

You are assigned. You're assigned, yeah. Was that during the time of three strikes or was three strikes? Three strikes and you're out was like, I think it, no, it already, it was in full swing. Okay. And so, yeah, that's another thing. Why are people in jail for marijuana offenses when it's legal to sell it? Like, it just blows my mind that this is the state of things.

But I digress. I could go off on all of this. But I, so here's the situation. In the state of New York, there's what's called the 48-hour rule, which means if you're arrested, you have a constitutional right within 48 hours of being arrested to be brought before a judge and to be arraigned, which is where you are formally read the charges against you. You are read your rights. You are assigned counsel if you cannot afford one to represent you. And you have a bail hearing.

And so because there were so many arrests and so many people in the system, they were running courts 24-7. So as a brand new lawyer, my shift was the night shift, four nights a week, and I did not leave until 8 o'clock in the morning. Wow. And I would be in there in my little Ann Taylor suit, you know, dressed like a little lawyer with my little like Bob professional haircut. I looked more like a prosecutor than a defense attorney. And I, you would get your cases because when literally people would be brought into the courthouse after being processed, you know, paperwork process and stuff at the precincts, they would be, you know, in jail sales behind a judge. And they'd have all these manila folders. Every folder was a person. And they'd thump them down on the, on the basket. And then we'd grab them and divvy him up. And if you're a felony certified, you get those. If you're a new lawyer like me and the misdemeanors, you get me. And then you would walk to the right of the judge and you would push the door open and you'd call out the person's name. And that's how you met your client. And it's three o'clock in the morning. And some of the people are going through detox back. because they were arrested high on drugs. Other people are scared to death. You got college kids that are drunk that got picked up for jumping a turnstile.

You got somebody with a serious case and a couple parole holds in there. And it's just like everybody. And so you'd call out the name. And for the first couple weeks, my guys, you can smell somebody who does not know what the hell they're doing. Right. They're like, oh, good. Here we go. Yep.

We got somebody fresh shut of law school here. You know, I know more about the legal system than you do. People just run it all over me. And they had a right to because I didn't have the experience yet. I was on the job. The supervisor was with me. But it doesn't bode confidence because how can somebody that doesn't have experience actually do anything for you? This is true.

And so it's yet another example of here I go. I got the lousy car. I got the lousy hand dealt to me. Now I got the lousy lawyer. And I don't know what it was that hit me, but, you know, one night, I think I was just extra tired, like three weeks into the job after the strike was over. I was like 2 o'clock in the morning. I kicked open the door and it slammed against the wall. And I grabbed the folder and I screamed, where the fuck is Paul?

Like the name, right? And there's all this stirring. And I'm like, are you Paul? And he's like, uh-huh. And I'm like, get your ass over. Don't look at me like that. If you think I'm a bitch in here, wait, you see what I do out there. And then some guy goes, hey, call that old Jewish guy, I want this lady.

And so now I'm crowdsourcing approval. But what I was demonstrating was that I care and I'm tough. And even though I didn't know what I was doing, I had my supervisor. I wanted to demonstrate that I was somebody. that you could trust. And in that moment, it taught me that that job, that's what it was about. You are dealing with a human being who has big decisions to make. And if you are going to have any influence, and if you are going to be able to help guide this case

and the decisions that they're going to have to make, you have to create trust. Quickly. Quickly. And that one thing changed everything because it created this sense like, oh, this might be different. Oh, this person might actually care because I've had a long string of situations where people didn't. Yes. And then the second thing that really changed me for the rest of my life is that when you do a bail hearing, they deeply consider ties to the community. The best way to show ties to the community is to have people show up.

Right? Okay. I cannot tell you how many times I would walk out into that courtroom after using the payphone and calling family members that there would be nobody there. No one showed up, whether it's because they didn't want to or because they couldn't, whatever the circumstances. But it would just break my fucking heart every time I would walk out into that courtroom and nobody was there. And I just thought to it. I just want to be somebody who shows up. Wow.

Wow. Yeah, you think about that. You're calling mothers and fathers and grandparents, friends. Friends. And no one showing up. Yeah, bosses. Yeah. Yeah.

So clearly, you're learning a lot about yourself. I can see how your heart is growing at that moment, you know, in your life. Yeah, well, I choose to see the best in everybody. I refuse to reduce people to the worst thing they've ever done or the worst thing they've been accused of. Yes, yes. I really do. You start to learn about humanity, you know, from a different angle, different lens. Well, you're in trouble in society if you believe just throwing people away is,

the right solution. Like, we're in big trouble if we can't see that every human being is capable of changing for the better. I mean, there may be a few outliers that have really significant mental or whatever neurological conditions that prevent that from happening. But by and large, I choose to believe that every single person, while they may be stressed out, they may have really offensive opinions deep down in there, there is a good person who wants to do well. Yes. That's what I choose to believe. Yes.

Look, we have a lot of reality TV stars on We Need a Talk, and I'm always talking to them after the recording about what's happening in their lives. And you know what always comes up is that they all are building their own businesses. They are their own brands. And what amazes me most is between filming, interviews, events, and creating content, they actually have the time to run a business too. But when I ask how they do it, almost everyone gives the same answer. They're using Shopify, which also happens to be a sponsor of this show. You probably know Shopify as the platform that helps you sell products around the world, managing things like shipping,

inventory, and returns. But what I didn't know is how much more it can do. Shopify's AI integration writes copy, enhances photos, and even creates campaigns. If you're starting your own business and need extra help, visit shopify.com.uk slash need to talk to sign up for your one pound per month trial. Paul, your show sponsor, Tinder, wants to know, can you remember the very first spark you felt between you and Jill? Absolutely. The first spark was the first time I saw her,

which was from behind, to be honest with you. She was walking up ahead with her father. Well, she turned around. And I thought, oh, my goodness, she looks like a model. Like, she's perfect. And then what happened is, because we were in a summer program, we went to the class, and Jill had the highest test score among our class. And I knew, wow, at that moment, that was it.

You know, she was beautiful. She was smart. That was the spark. That's all I needed. The spark is where it starts. It's like you're opening a new. book. It is the beginning. And that's why the spark is so exciting and so beautiful. What's great about Tinder, it's the place that allows you to start the spark. And then you can carry that spark into

real life where it matters most. So remember, it starts with a swipe. Download Tinder today. So tell me about Chris. Christopher Robbins. Because you have, because it's interesting, because you said, if he would have met you in college, oh my God, thank God. He would have. He would have. not spent any time with you. Oh, he would have. But then it would have been the like, you know, year and a half like, okay, swing to the next person. And then that's out, right? Yeah. So tell me about meeting him, but also how do you believe that you evolved from law school to the point that you met him? Well, I was a public defender. So I met him in New York City. And all of the legal aid attorneys were, we had gotten these passes to go to this United Way benefit. There was some

partnership. He had just gotten back to the States and was invited to go to the same thing with some of his college friends that were like finance guys. So he had to borrow a talks from his brother and he shows up at this thing and he's wandering around in his brother's talks. And at the same moment, I've had enough. So I grabbed my coat and I'm headed to the door. And I look back and for the first time all night, there's no line at the bar. So I go running back to the bar with my coat in my hand, and I say to the bartender, hey, can I have a bourbon on the rocks to go? Could you put it in a plastic glass? And from behind me, I hear, that sounds great. Could you make it too? And I turned around, and there he was. And I don't remember, like, what we really talked about, but we both got our drinks,

and we stood there and drank our bourbon on the rocks. And then we danced once. And then we came back to order another drink, and he said, well, let's get out of here. And then my mother's voice came on in my head. And she was like, don't go. Gate rape. You don't know this guy. Like, get out of there. And so I gave him my phone number.

Okay. And I think he gave me his. And I left. Oh, he did give me his. Oh, he did? Yes. He did. Because I went home.

And I got home and my roommates were like, how was the night? And I was like, I met this really cute guy. In fact, I think I'm going to call him because I'd had a couple drinks. So I called that night. Really? Yes. And I left a message and was like, hey, it's Mel. You want to go for a run in the morning?

And he got home and he heard the message and he called me right back and said, I would love to go for a run, but I got to go out to the burbs because my mom's got some things she needs me to go to. But why don't we go out Sunday night? And so we went out on our first date Sunday night. I met him at his apartment and we walked 30 blocks down the east side, down to Benny's burritos. And by the time I got to Benny's burritos, we both knew we were going to be together forever. We really did. Like, it just, it wasn't like love at first sight. Like, I always tell my daughters that you know it's the right person if they feel like homebase.

Like, when you walk in the door at the end of the day, the world's hard enough. If you exhale because your person's there, you're with the right person. Well, can I say? You have hit. So, I have a theory. It's called the inhale exhale. You're kidding me. No? You do? Yes. I should write a book. I should write a book about this. Right. But this is a theory. Because there's a, there's a show I do called Married at First Sight, UK here, right? And there's a moment where you have, they're at the altar, right? And typically in the heterosexual relationship, you've got the man at the altar and the woman's coming down the aisle. And the moment that he turns around, it's the first time they're meeting. If he inhales. Oh, my God. Yeah, they are married at first sight, right? So if he turns around and does the, it's not good.

But if he turns around and does the exhale. Have you really crunched the data on this? Truly. You should. I have. I have, and I'm telling you 100% of the time, 100% of the time, the exhale is the, that's the success. This is going to be my new party trick, because I'm going to be able to literally. predict when we're watching this show. I'm going to bet $100. Oh, I know exactly what's going to happen, guys.

The inhale, exhale. So, so I'm with you. Yeah. I'm with you and what you're teaching your, your daughter. So this idea of you felt like you were safe with Chris. Yeah, I could just be who I was and I could be who I wasn't. Okay. The first, like guy didn't feel like I needed to lie to or be something different. Right. Yeah. Right. So you two get married in how long. from meeting to you get married? Well, it was our second date that he basically said, I want to marry you. And then we moved in together.

And then, you know, we basically got married a year or so later. Okay. So did that feel fast to interview? No. To friends, family? No, because, well, I, like, the truth is that this probably, this could have been another Tarzan situation. Yes.

Right? Because this felt different, even though it was fast, because it didn't feel like gripping. it just felt like I could exhale into being with him. Yes. And so it felt very different, but it was fast. But very quickly what happened is that we just got into personal development. And that began this path of me leaning into just trying to sort out all of the things that didn't feel right in terms of my

experience in life. And I had gotten very lucky in choosing a person who leans in and choosing a guy who is very sensitive and choosing somebody who just is a real deep thinker and very inquisitive. And so, you know, he's the perfect person for me in terms of a partner to be able to do that kind of growth with. Now, I've heard you mention a few times in this conversation, leaning. Yeah. Okay. So I would imagine that's opposed to lean out, lean away. Yeah. Or as Fat Joe would say, lean back. Yeah. Right. So lean in. Is there a theory around lean in, no? Not really. Like I just, I feel like in a relationship, I think about it like being on a teeter, totter, right? You know, that child or seesaw. Seesaw, yeah. Right? Seesaw. That every relationship is like a seesaw. There's two people and the energy and the connection between them. is always going to go up and down. Sometimes it'll be in balance. And the key to the relationship is number one,

nobody gets off. The second somebody decides to lean back and get off the seesaw, the whole thing flips. And in any relationship that doesn't work, whether it's a friendship, whether it's a romantic partnership, a business relationship, you can look back and see

that there was a moment where the other person got off. I'm no longer in this thing. I'm no longer leaning in. I'm no longer like participating. I'm quietly quitting. I'm cheating. I'm doing whatever.

And it's typically months or years before the actual breakup happens. Okay? So first thing, you've got to have two people that are actually on the thing and leaning in. Second thing, you've got to have two people that are willing to adjust a little, right?

because if someone's down, you've got to adjust your side a little to bring them back up. When you're up to bring somebody down, you've got to adjust a little. Like, it's constantly like that. And if you don't have those two things, it's not going to work. Yeah, yeah.

And so we got really lucky because we've worked very hard to just even when we're pissed off, even when it's terrifying, even when it's been very, very difficult, we, neither one of us got off. And we, at times, have crossed her arms and be like, figure it out yourself, you're fucking asshole. But there is mostly, we come back and lean back in. Yes.

Yeah. Yes. Now, you've mentioned that you were not diagnosed with ADHD until you were 47. So early in the relationship, you were unaware. No, and it drove him crazy. And I was going to ask you this in particular, too, because in the research, I found 80% of adults are unaware. So 80% of adults who have ADHD are unaware that they do. Yes. So how do you believe that that impacted your marriage? Well, first let's talk about how it impacted me. Okay.

So it's very important to understand that women are profoundly underdiagnosed and there's a reason why. When they were studying ADHD as a clinical diagnosis, they only study boys. And so, When the diagnosis hit, it was mainly around hyperactivity. Boys and girls, based on the research, experience ADHD at largely the same levels. Girls for decades, like myself, went completely under the radar screen because while we experience the neurological difference, because it's like a structural functioning difference in a part of this part of the brain, People mistake it for not being able to pay attention. That's not what it is. It's being able to direct your attention when it requires effort.

And it's also being able to outside noise while you're trying to direct attention. So you can have somebody with ADHD that is able to play a video game like this or read a book for hours. And then you're like, you don't have ADHD. You can focus. Well, that's because I'm interested in this and it doesn't require effort. But if I have to go do this thing over here,

I hear everybody talking and I don't have a mechanism in my brain to like, shh, that down. And I don't have a mechanism in the brain to lift up the energy to just do this. And so with boys, there's a lot of fidgeting and this and that. And so there's the hyperactivity piece. With girls, it's the opposite. Most symptoms for girls is you go inward. You get self-critical. You kind of get lost in your thoughts.

And so there is what psychologists call the lost generation of women. It's about a 20-decade span of women that are probably, I don't know what ages we would be now, but I'm like right smack dab in the middle of it. Women who had ADHD or some of these other kind of neurological learning style differences, we went undiagnosed, and then anxiety starts to come to the surface. And then you get medicated for anxiety for a long time when the real issue was actually ADHD. Because if you have dyslexia or dysgraphia or executive functioning issues or you've got ADHD or something else that is making it difficult for you to do what's being asked of you to do in school, the number one thing that happens is anxiety and self-criticism. because you're sitting in a classroom like, why won't my brain work like everybody else's?

And so women underdiagnosed and then medicated with anxiety. And then I got diagnosed the way that most women do. I had a child, our son Oakley, who was profoundly struggling in school. And luckily, this was at a moment in our lives where we were starting to be able to pay off the debt. My husband was out of the restaurant business. I was starting to gain traction in the speaking business. And so I could afford to pay, it was $5,000 to pay to have a neuropsychoval done by a psychiatrist at Mass General Brigham in Boston. And sure enough, he had profound dyslexia, profound ADHD, profound disgrathia.

The kid could barely write his name. He's in fourth grade. And yet he's like the most verbal kid on the planet. And he was having severe anxiety. And I was just, we were losing sleep over. We did not know what was wrong. we get this diagnosis, and I'm like, wait a minute, I'm sitting with this pediatrician. Shout out Mark Blumenthal.

And I'm like, Mark, this kind of sounds like me. Like, I'm looking at this like test result. Like, this really feels, this sounds like me. And I say, do you think I might have ADHD? And he puts his papers down and he takes his readers off. And he goes, do I think you have ADHD? Mel, you are the most ADHD parent I know. I'm like, what are you talking about?

What do you mean? He's like, Mel, you are so intelligent. You are so successful. Do you know how many appointments you miss? You are the one parent that we know for sure is going to miss the annual appointment. And then you're going to call in a panic before school because you need the physical done. You need it done yesterday. You are classic.

And I look at him. I'm like, why didn't you tell me? He goes, I'm not your doctor. And so I went and got a formal evaluation. And honest to God, I tried a long, whatever, acting release, Adderall. It was as if I had had terrible vision and all of a sudden put glasses on. Wow. Look at that. I could not. I felt so bad for little me that I struggled all those years.

And then, of course, I look at. my oldest daughter and I'm like, oh my God, this is you. And I would imagine it's hereditary for the most part. I think so, although Gabor Mata says that he also believes that the experience in utero and the state of your mother and the stress that she may be under is also something. Okay. Fair enough. Yeah.

So how did that then, so clearly that's how it impacted you? Yeah. How do you believe that not being diagnosed early in your marriage impacted that's a great question. So I think the biggest thing is that it made it possible for Chris and I to embrace the fact that I'm not trying to be an asshole. That when I blow my nose in a Kleenex and I walk toward the garbage tan, I have the full intention of making it there. And then when the dog runs in front of me and I stop and pet the dog and I put the Kleenex here and then I stand up and I walk this way, it's not because I'm a slob or I'm trying to be rude to Chris. It's because I literally lost my focus for a second.

And there are so many instances where Chris would feel slighted and disrespected because I hadn't, you know, I'd left a bunch of stuff in the sink with the full intention of coming back. You know, Like those sorts of things that he would ask me over and over, and I would be really good for a couple days because I'm putting a lot of energy into doing it. And then I just forget it. And it has, it really helped me be more compassionate with myself, too, because I'd beat myself up. Like, I want, if Chris asked me to do something because, you know, Mel, it would make a huge difference for me if you were on time. And then I'm on time for a couple days. and then we go back to him sitting in the driveway in his pickup truck

while I'm running around trying to learn Spanish and find my shoe and pack a lunch for tomorrow morning. Yes. Which, none of which needs to happen right now. And he, and then I'm like, oh my God, what am I doing? I get anything. I'm really sorry. I didn't mean to keep you.

I'm sorry about that. I can clean it up quickly. And so it gave me something not to use as an excuse, but to basically say this is something I have to work hard to manage. I'm not trying to be a jerk who is not sensitive to the things that would make your life easier. Yeah. You know, what blew me away, and as I was prepping for you, I saw that the divorce rate for couples where at least one has ADHD is twice as high. Really?

That doesn't surprise me because I do think what ends up happening is that there are so many small things that build up. Like, I'll give you an example. A lot of us order a lot of stuff online. Yes. Cardboard boxes come to the house. Yes. Right? And there are two types of people in a relationship. There are the people that open up a box and then they cut the box and then they flatten the box and then they put the box where it's supposed to go. And then there are those of us that open the box and then we leave the box by the door. And then we put another box that's empty on top like a giant janga puzzle that we intend to come to next. Or we just launch them into the garage or we launch them down the stairs fully intending to come next. This was a fight in our household forever.

that Chris is Mr. Open Up the Box, Flatten the Box, put it where it belongs. He is so disciplined and regimented. I am like, if my brain is like, if you put a bunch of mice in a cardboard box and we tip it over in a restaurant, that's my brain. And so we, he would get so frustrated with me. And then he finally sat me down. He said, look, when I see the Tower of Cardboard sitting next to the garage door, it makes me feel like you think I am your maid. It feels so disrespectful. I have asked you over and over and over again to do this. And now it feels like you're literally creating a cardboard middle finger. And when he explained it like that, I actually want to change because I don't want that habit to make him feel that way. Right. Because we have the tools, and we know what we're dealing with,

it makes it easier for him to give me a little bit of grace on the days that I forget, or I'm running late, but it makes me want to try harder because these are skills you can build. But what happens if you don't know how to lean in, if you don't know how to talk about, not what the person is doing, but how what they did impacts you,

then all of these small, micro moments of disrespect and judgment and resentment and resentment start to build up. And you start to believe that this person disrespects you. And oftentimes the person who's doing something has no clue how what they're doing is actually impacting you. But we don't talk about these things. We kind of let it slide and let it slide. And, you know, the interesting thing about the let them theory is that it has really changed our marriage. Yes. Like I thought, you know, we're going to be married 29 years this year.

And I would think that if I discovered this thing two years ago, I would think that by the time you're married 27 years, that's it, right? You're not changing. Second marriages are amazing, especially when it's with the first person. And you can create a second marriage because I didn't realize how much both of us were sort of a little in our corners. And like, oh, Mel's just who Mel is Chris just who Chris. there are things I want to change. I didn't realize how both of us felt a lot of judgment from the other person, because you know when somebody wants you to change. Sure.

We know our partners can do better. We wish they would do this thing. Our marriage would be easier if you would just flatten the boxes or you would make an effort or you would try, like all that stuff, right? And I'm not talking about the skills we need to build. I'm talking about the judgments that we carry. Yes. And the way it impacts you. And so discovering the let them theory and using it, what was incredible,

is there so many instances where I was holding an opinion over Chris about what I wish you would do. I'm not expressing it. Or I'm just judging him. Learning how to let him be who he is and let him be who he's not is how you love somebody. Because you're seeing them and accepting them exactly as they are. And then when you go to the let me part, let me choose what's worth my time in energy. Let me express myself in a way.

Yes. where I'm not angry about this thing. I'm just expressing how I feel and how it's impacting me. Let me express myself in a way where I can make very clear requests about what I would love to see change and how that would make me feel. And then don't manage it. Just let them show you through their behavior whether or not you matter enough for them to try. And it's just incredible how by backing off and learning to really appreciate

exactly who he is and exactly who he's not, like we are tighter and closer than we've ever been. Yeah, yeah. I could see, because one is, I mean, what's great is that you two do a lot of videos together, right? Everyone's like, my friend's like, he looks like he's a hostage in that conversation.

I'm like, no, he's thinking. He's a deep thinker. He's a slow processor, okay? Some of us are like, he doesn't want to be there right now. He's like, oh, God, huh? But what's great, I think, is that I feel Like from the outside looking in, you could see this evolution, right, of the marriage. Yeah.

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Before starting Ebbglis, tell your doctor if you have a parasitic infection. Ask your doctor about Ebbglis and visit Ebbglis.com or call 1800 LilyRX or 1-800-545-9. One question, because you mentioned you could quite quit. And I know that you've talked about how there was a moment where you and Chris. Hate each other, yes. Right. So if you could speak about that. And was that the two,

2008 roughly. Oh, yes. Okay. So just, just it was if I'm looking at the time. I'd say 2008 to 2014. Oh my goodness. Really? Of course. Oh my goodness. Like let's be real. Okay. Like I mean, it's possible to love somebody and hate them at the same time. Well, that's a long period of time. No shit. Yes. Yes. Well, because it's easier to be angry than it is to be afraid. And, you know, I'm in a heterosexual relationship. So despite the fact that you see me as successful as I am now, I still had the social conditioning that his money was our money and my money for like spending and fun, that it was his responsibility to be the successful one. And men feel and have the burden from society of being the provider. And just like women have all kinds of social conditioning

and pressure largely around appearance and around gender stereotypes, one of the biggest pressures that men feel is around the fact that your value is in your work, your value is in providing. And one of the things that Chris does now is he is designed and leads men's retreats. And one of the biggest takeaways is that every guy that goes there, whether it's a former NFL player or it is a guy that's done several tours of duty, talks about how they don't even know what their needs are. Because they believe that their value is in the work and the providing and that they're not supposed to rest. they that everybody else comes before them and I when Chris first told me that I was like that's not true women women feel that way well it turns out you guys do too and so when Chris's restaurant started to fail and we had secured it with our life savings and our home and every credit card and the home equity line and then the liens hit the house and at the age of 41 with three kids under the age of 10 you start seeing everything that you thought that was going to happen go down the drain and then you got friends and family that in invested in it. The man is trying to fix this. It's not like he tried to fail, right? Not like he's

trying. And by the way, I was by his side every step of the way. Yeah, let's do the credit. Yeah, let's shove all the money. Yeah, let's show. Conveniently forget that when things go sideways. And so I was mad at Chris. I was mad at Chris because I blamed him for getting us in this mess. And the truth is, we were both responsible for it. But it's so much easier to do one of these than to really look in the mirror and not only see your responsibility in the matter, but see the more important thing, which is your responsibility

to do the work to change. That period was one where everything flipped upside down. Chris and I had always both worked, and there had been times when we'd been even Stephen, there had been times when he had earned a little bit more. He had gone into the restaurant business, and I had been holding down the fort, with my coaching business, and I thought this television show was going to be the ticket, and then

all of a sudden that crashed and burned. And so I fell into this belief that it wasn't fair. He was supposed to be, he was supposed, I wasn't supposed to have the pressure on me. I wasn't supposed to be the one with a eight-year-old and a seven-year-old and a two-year-old, now working two jobs and trying to fix this thing, this motherfucker, while my friends are having their kitchens renovated and getting nicer neighborhoods and I'm pulling my kid from town soccer because I can't, this is not part of the plan. And so you've got a situation where he's already beaten himself up and already feeling like he's failed as a man, as a husband, as a father, he can't provide, he can't pay his employees some of the time and his investors. And I'm now filling in the gap,

and I'm mad about it. So when I say it was a like four to six year period. I it really was because um it was during this time that I created the five second rule to help me get out of bed you count backwards five four three to one that's right this is the TEDx talk yeah in San Francisco yeah that was three years after I'd created the five second but but I would imagine that was there any imposter syndrome at that because 2011 it was tough hold on a second tough time do you want to know the backstory like so the backstory is it's 2008 we're 800 well six 600,000 pounds in dead. Okay. And yep. Look at that calculation, Bill. Look at that calculation. And I, the liens are on the house.

Chris is in a state of depression and drinking. I'm in a state of rage and just pissed offness and realized if I don't want to lose this house and lose my sanity, no one's coming. Like it's like this. This guy is not going to fix this. He can barely hold it together. I'm going to have to fix this. You mentioned, too, that you were drinking at that time. Oh, yeah.

A bourbon. I don't drink bourbon anymore. I'm a real bitch when I drink bourbon. So like we had the bitchy bourbon thing. Because alcohol is how you hit the release valve. Yeah. Okay. And so I just got to work.

I got any kind of job I could. I called old coaching clients. I tried out for a radio show in the morning. And that's what had me step back in. 5, 4, 321, 5, 5, 4, 321. Just go put a foot in front of the other. Step back into life. Make the phone call.

Apply for the job. And so I literally just went from that Saturday morning radio show to trying out to a Sunday night show on a bigger station, to trying out for a five day a week show on a radio station in Orlando, Florida. Okay. I landed that job, didn't pay a lot of money. But five days a week, I was live for two hours a day on a talk radio station and then Trayvon Martin was murdered. Did you move to Orlando? No. I did it remotely from Boston.

Oh, wow. And when Trayvon Martin was murdered, I went right into public defender mode, and I started talking about that case every day because this show was broadcast in Orlando and the motor happened in Sanctly. Right there. Yeah. And so when the trial happened, the radio station was what's called the pool feed. They were the one group of cameras and they had two seats in the courtroom. And that feed went to everybody, ABC, NBC, BBC, CNN. It was my first experience with anything like that.

And they asked me if I would come down and sit in the courtroom. So I sat in the courtroom literally every day. And then I would come out on every break and I would do a quick live report for the radio station. It took two days for CNN to scoop me up. And they made me just a correspondent on that case. So every break I would come out. I would then go into like this big truck that's a mobile studio. And I would do like 12 to 16, what they called TV hits every day.

I was that person, you know, standing with the background behind me, like, just talking about what was happening. I was not a reporter. And then I would go to a radio show at night. CNN called and brought me in. And the head of it, which was, I believe it was his name Jeff Zucker at the time, sat me down. And he said, I would like to give you a job. And I said, okay, what do you want me to do? And he said, and I know I don't want Fox News to hire you.

And I said, well, why do you want me? And he said, because I love how smart you are. and you have something that nobody in this building has. And I said, what's that? He said, you can explain the most complicated things like you're sitting at a kitchen table talking to anybody. Yes. And I want that. And so I said, great.

And so that was my first big job. And it was three years after that rock bottom moment. I'd been using 5, 4, 3, 2, 1 in the dark forever. And so what happened next, I'd never told anybody about the five second rule, except for Chris. So I get a call from my college roommate. I was like, hey, I got a friend. They're putting on this event in San Francisco. And they were talking the other night at a cocktail party out here,

and they were saying they're trying to find a speaker who could talk about career change. And I immediately thought of you because you've changed your career so many times. And I'm like, I don't know if that's a compliment. And I said, look, I don't really like speaking. But you're a lawyer. I said, I know. But talking to courtroom, the same courtroom basically every day. That's not giving a speech.

She's like, I know. but they're willing to fly you and Chris out to San Francisco. And they're going to put you up in the St. Regis. And when you're $800,000 in debt, you know what that sounds like? A free vacation. And so I called my mother-in-law and she came down and watched the kids and we got on that plane. And then we landed in San Francisco and it dawned me. Oh, my God, I got to get on a stage tomorrow.

I'd never done that. Wow. You had not written the speech. No. And here's the thing. this was one of the first TEDx conferences ever done. This was not a thing. I didn't know what Ted was.

I didn't know anything about it. I thought, I'm going on vacation with my husband. I have to do this thing on the afternoon. They didn't really prepare you. This wasn't like some big thing. You kind of did a quick run through. I had some slides. I was not planning on talking about the five-second rule.

I literally was talking about career change. And then all of a sudden, at the end, I forget how to end the speech. And I just blurt out the five-second rule. And then I say, thank you very much. Oh, by the way, here's my email address in case you have questions. And then this is 2011. I'm just starting at CNN. A year goes by. Nothing happens. We're starting to pay our bills. We're starting to get back on track. The rage is starting to disappear. And this year goes by, it's 2012, I'm on CNN and they put it online. TEDx does.

Tedx does, yeah. I don't know this. It starts to spread, and by spread I mean like 10,000 views. Okay. And I'm like writing people back that I've never met who are telling me these crazy stories. Oh, I saw your thing in San Francisco and my God, I'm using that five second thing. I've lost 100 pounds. I didn't jump off a bridge.

I walked away from an abusive relationship. I'm sober because of this thing. And I'm like, were you there? And they're like, no, I saw it online. You saw it online. And then they would send me the link and I'm like, oh my God, this thing's online. And so for a year, another year goes by.

And I would come home from work and I'd pour a glass of wine and I would literally have to put the kids about it. I would write back to strangers because of the stories they were telling me. Yeah, look at that. And I started to feel this sense of responsibility. that if I've put something out into the world that's actually making a difference, I need to figure out why. Like, I got to find the evidence. I got to build the case. And so I, because I was at CNN, I could email anybody. Hey, it's Mel Robbins legal analyst from CNN and people call you back. So I started doing my own research project only because I wanted to be able to give people that were writing me more resources. It wasn't about writing a book. It wasn't about anything. And then people started to ask me if I would come and, speak for free. Could you come do that TED Talk for free? And I'm like, sure. Because I didn't think a

normal person gets paid to do this kind of thing. And so I spoke for free for a number, like probably seven or eight times. And then somebody came up to me after the Pennsylvania Women's Conference, where I had a little side breakout room thing. And somebody came up to me at that and said, hey, I saw your session. You're fantastic. I'm also speaker. Do you mind if I ask you a question, speaker to speaker? I'm like, sure. She goes, did you get your check yet? I'm like, check. You got paid for that? Wow.

Wow. Yeah. And it was this more, I'm like, am I the only idiot that does not know what's going on? And I did not know

what to charge. So I came up with this rule and I want you to steal this so you don't know what to charge. Literally, if anybody asks you to do something, you're just going to use the five second rule.

You're going to five, four, three, do you want to put yourself in pause and you're going to take your breath and you're going to go, what's your budget. And then you're going to wait for the answer and then you're going to pause again and then you're going to say normally I'm double. That's how you find out your rate.

Just like that. Just like that. Normally, whatever the budget is, normally I'm doubled. Yeah. And so the next phone call that came in two weeks later was for the Jay Hilburn conference. And so I said, sure, I think I'm available in August. And I paused and I said, what's your budget? And he said, $10,000.

And I dropped the goddamn phone. I, that's three months of our mortgage. I couldn't believe it. Yeah. And so I forgot the second part and said yes. Yeah, I'll take it. And then I felt so unworthy of that money that I spent half of it working with a graphic designer to come up with a PowerPoint presentation that looked expensive. And that forced me to prepare.

And there are moments in your life that are these leapfrog moments where if you step into that moment and you are ready to meet the moment, it will accelerate your transformation and your journey at a pace that you cannot believe. And I stepped on that stage and I destroyed it. And he came off to me and said, I've been in this business 20 years. You're the single best female speaker I have ever seen in my life. And you're top two of all time. Who runs your business? And I said, you do.

And he still does to this day. Look at that. You know what's interesting is that story, I think that represents you. When I say you is it embodies everything that you learned from a little girl in terms of service leadership. It embodies everything that you learned in terms of the public defender work and your connection with the people and trying to represent the people. The tenacity, the assertiveness. And it makes sense. You know, it was interesting.

I didn't realize that part of your career and how where you are today is just the, it's just the tale of that story. Oh, it's just the beginning. Oh, yeah, you're right. It is. The tale of that story, but a new one. Yeah. Now I get it. Now I get it. Because I think that a lot of people may say, oh, look at Mel Robbins. She started a podcast in 2022. And look at her. She's the top podcast in the world. One of the top podcasts in the world. But they don't know the work that was put in. But now we began that story with the relationship between you and Chris. So I would imagine that there was a. that period of time it was rocky. Yeah. But then you were able to move out of that. Well, here's what's important about that.

Here's what's important about that is that we were in the wrong roles in our relationship. He is the foundation, the bedrock of our family. He is the consistency. When all of this happened, we flipped into the right roles. I became the breadwinner. I love building things. I'm an artist. I'm a creator.

I freaking love being out in the world. But I could not do what I do without the foundation. that he creates based on my deep values of family and connection and community. And so what was been amazing is that even though it was very difficult, because what happened once I started speaking is I was on the road 150 days a year. I missed my kids middle school and high school, truly. And it's not until recently that they truly see how big the business is, how hard I work, how much I gave up in order to be where we are now, what I missed out on. And it has been, it was very lonely.

And yes, it was fulfilling. It was amazing to be able to pay off the debt because every dollar I earned 50% right to the debt. 50% right to the debt. 50% right to the debt. And I wanted stability so bad that I was like, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. but there is a huge piece of the girl's childhood that I just wasn't around for. And for a lot of men that have careers or anybody that has a career where you have to travel for your work or you've got a consulting job or you're a long-haul trucker, you're serving in the military. You know what I'm talking about.

And so that period wasn't the easiest thing either. But for our marriage, it level set it. because Chris is a guy that cares deeply about service and community and that kind of stability. And I am clearly somebody who is meant to be out in the world creating. And when we went into the proper roles, it also helped change the marriage. Does that suggest that environment is critically important? Because I'm wondering what would have happened if you didn't find that success during that time? And like, what do you believe would have happened to the relationship?

I don't know because I don't do that. And here's why. Because I do believe that there is some sort of cosmic order to the way that things unfold. And I believe that if they hadn't unfolded the way that they have, it's because I was resisting the things that I was supposed to learn. but eventually you get taken to the things that you're supposed to experience or realize in life. And you can realize, you can have the same realizations whether you make money or not. You can improve your marriage whether you change your career or not. Everybody's so obsessed with this, the numbers, the rankings, the how big things are.

Because I don't ever want to get caught up in this and the rankings and the bigness and all that crap because if you do and you start becoming romance by the next thing or the thing we're going to do next or how much bigger you can make it, you lose sight of this. You lose sight of the very thing that you were doing in the dark when nobody gave a shit and nobody paid attention that built over time into the thing now everybody wants to be a part of. Like the thing that people don't realize is I've been in the top 20 podcasts in the world since I launched. Nobody cared. And nobody cared because I don't have celebrities on the show. I'm not in the slipstream of pop culture. I'm not a daily political show. I'm not spewing out like, you know, weird.

What is it? What do they call them? I'm not spewing out conspiracy theories. I don't believe in that. I am focused on just serving the person that is right in front of me. The one listener, somewhere around the world who is waking up today and has no time, but they have found the time and made the time to spend it with me. That is such an honor. So you better believe your friend Mel Robbins, I'm going to do everything that I can to make what I am putting out worthy of your time. So how do you deal now with the pressure? I would imagine. You don't feel pressure at all. No, I have everything I've ever wanted. I have 29-year marriage. I have three kids that I have a good relationship with. I have two parents that are alive. I live on a mountain in a beautiful, beautiful

place. I've paid off my bills. I don't need it. Like, how much is a human being need? I get to wake up every day and meet incredible people and learn from them. Do you know how extraordinary that is? Yes. People need to wake the fuck up and look around and really learn how to appreciate what actually matters. Like, we've become so obsessed as a society with chasing the likes or chasing the next thing or reaching a million dollars and do it all this is fine but don't lose sight of what actually matters on that note i have a surprise for you okay i've been waiting okay to hand the surprise for you i cannot wait what you got you ready for this yeah hi mom oh hi soy this soyer here i'm mel's oldest daughter

I have so many things to say, but I think that you guys have done such an amazing job at really showing your love for each other, always kissing in the kitchen and telling each other how much you love each other. And I think that you guys also do a phenomenal job at communication. And communication doesn't always translate when. you're pissed off or you're drunk or you're annoyed, but I think that you guys always come back together and have such good talks. And I think it's really cool to see you guys implementing what you guys are learning in therapy and really growing from it. I think is me, Kendall and Oakley, are in our 20s trying to seek out the love of our lives, I will say that it has made it very difficult because we are always comparing everyone else out there

to the two of you. I just feel very, very, very grateful to have been shown that example growing up. So thank you so much. Love you all. Have an amazing interview. Bye. That's freaking fantastic. Hi. That is fantastic.

Thank you. You're welcome. You're welcome. I better get a copy this. There's one thing I want to say about this. Sure. I say to my daughters all the time, your dad, as you see him now, is not your dad, who I met when he was 26.

It is unfair to judge the people that you're meeting right now in their mid-20s against the example that a 55-year-old man is giving. And here's why I say that. It is so important to understand that you can build skills. Through communication, you can in your relationship talk about what you need, you can make requests, you can learn how to communicate in a way that helps somebody grow with you. Yes. And if you don't communicate what you need or you don't communicate what bothers you, you grow apart. And what's fascinating is she said that we set the bar very high.

I kind of think I'm setting the bar low because the baseline for a great relationship is just communication. You know, I talk a lot about, I think a lot about love and I think about love is two things. It's admiring something in someone, and it's having them in mind, consideration. It's admiration and consideration. And you can find just about anything to admire in somebody. Like, you could be dating somebody and they're messy as hell, but you admire the fact that they are really dedicated to their family and they're a loyal friend. I admire that about you. Consideration is having them in mind. If you know that they love pepperoni pizza and you pick up a slice,

on your way home from work, that is having them in mind. Yes. That's an act of love. Yes. And the way that you learn what consideration is like and what somebody else needs is by communicating. And so I feel like the bar is low

because you gain all the things that you see 30 years later by leaning in and wanting to grow together. And nobody can grow with you if they don't know what you need. What you need, yeah. Can I say, I loved this message. This was beautiful. In particular, what I loved is you can see the gratitude that she has.

I mean, you think about how special that is for her to say, I just love being around you. Yeah. I love being around that. Here's the other thing that's important to recognize, and I'm not proud to share this. There were periods of our lives that she remembers where she would miss the bus and she'd have to wake me up in bed

because I was so depressed I was not getting out of bed. You know you're failing to parenting when you're having to have your kids wake you up. There are mornings where they would come downstairs and both Chris and I were passed out in the living room because we had drunk too much and had been fighting. And so they have been there for the good and the bad.

And she also mentioned that, you know, we talked to a marriage therapist And I think therapy gets a really bad rap. And I hate the word mental health because people immediately think something's wrong. Mental health is happiness. Mental health is managing stress. Mental health is having the clarity and the confidence to be able to communicate effectively. Mental health is your resilience in life.

Mental health is the way you talk to yourself. Don't you want that? Of course you do. And so one of the things that have really helped us is we do talk to a marriage therapist. It's not because anything's wrong. but because I don't want anything to be wrong. Sure. And there is a million ways for small things to build up.

And it just creates this moment for us to go. He literally opens our session by going, so what do you guys want to talk about today? Right. And I'm like, I don't know, what do you want to talk about? And then lo and behold, there's always something. Right. There is.

You know, when you talked about quiet quitting a little while ago, that's this ambivalence in essence in the marriage. 60, 70% of people who go to therapy, it's because of this ambivalence. It's not because there's a severe issue that they're fighting. So you're right. Just to go is helpful. Motherhood.

Yes. Because motherhood, right now, it looks good on you. Well, I'm really good mom for adult kids. For adult kids. Well, I think it's important to give yourself some grace. Like, there are periods where you're not going to like it. I like other people's babies. I didn't particularly like having, well, actually, that's not true.

I kind of liked having babies. I did not like toddlers. I did not like elementary school phase. Middle school, I started liking and feeling like I could connect with my kids more. High school, definitely interesting. College, now we're talking. Yes. Adul.

Now motherhood gets interesting. And so I think it's important to understand that you don't have to be the best for every phase. Giving yourself grace is really important. And the other thing that I think is very important, especially for the women watching and listening, is every mom or dad wants their kids to pursue their dreams. Who the hell is going to show them how to do it? Your kids are watching. And for women who hold themselves back and feel guilty because they travel

or they have to work too much or this and that, I'm here to tell you that if you have something in your heart that you want to pursue, you are both robbing yourself and more importantly, your kids of that opportunity. The example that I have given and that my husband has given, that you can work together, but the example that I have given as a woman, that you can go out and create something at any age, you can jump into something like podcasting and tech as a 50-year-old woman and actually build something incredible or, heck, just build something that you're excited about that's yours. It shows your kids that it's possible.

It shows your daughters how to do it, and it shows your sons how to support their partner in doing it. Yes, yes. Now, in the little bit of time that we have left, if you reflect back in your life, is there anything that we did not touch upon that you believe was pivotal in the person that sits in front of me today? Yeah. Like, I feel that despite all of this, it wasn't until I discovered the let them theory that I realized that I realized that I, I was kind of living life in reverse that I was putting so much time and energy into managing what people think, what they say, how they feel, what they believe, what they do. Yes. And I'd read books on stoicism.

I'd tried to be more chill. Chris is Buddhist. It's very annoying. Yes. I've tried to let it go. I could never let it go because that feels like defeat. I'm just going to hold on to it. Learning how to say let them and letting people be who there.

people think what they want, letting people believe what they believe, letting people misunderstand, letting people be disappointed. It's liberating because you start to realize every time you say it how often you're trying to control the uncontrollable, how often you've made it your job to make everybody else happy, how often as a parent you think that your kid's healing, your kid's success, your kids, everything is your responsibility? No. You've got to let them learn from life with your support by their side. But you've got to let them heal on their own. timeline, you've got to let them struggle so they can figure it out. Really learning how to do that and understanding that when you say let them, especially in situations where maybe somebody's

disrespecting you or you've got a challenging person in your life who's not treating you in a way that you deserve, when you say let them, you're not allowing it. You're recognizing it. You're recognizing that this person, this disrespect, this situation at work, this is the facts I'm dealing with. I've got to say let them and recognize this person's not changing and there's nothing I can do that will make this change. Even if this person is a narcissist, let's say. How does let them apply? Oh, I've used this in my life with a person in my life that has a narcissistic personality style. And most people that have a narcissistic personality style, you're probably related to or they're your ex and you don't have the luxury of just cutting them out. Or maybe you don't want to.

Right. Right? You still want them close. I have for years gone into situations with a certain person in my life, bracing and hoping it would go different. Bracing and hoping this time, it would be smooth. And then all of a sudden it's not. And then I'm upset. And learning to say let them. Let them be who they are. I know exactly who this person is. Why would I expect them to be different? Just let them be. I can leave any dinner table, any text chain, any conversation. anytime I choose. And if I'm not bracing, now I can go to the second part of the theory and pull back into my power. My power is in responding. I get to choose what I think about this person. I choose to believe this person is this way because of their childhood trauma because that's what the research says. You're not born this way.

You're made this way. Typically through emotional neglect. That is what that is. This person can only give me what they have to get. They do not have what I need. So stop going to them. expecting them to give me something they've never given me. Just let them be exactly as they are and exactly as they're. It's so much easier. And then you're not tense. Then you're not trying

to control it. And you don't take the bait. You see it coming a mile away. So you can actually access all of the amazing advice that the experts in this area and the experts in codependency say, which is hoping somebody changes, is actually keeping you trapped. Recognize. this is who this person is. Their behavior, their behavior reveals how they feel about me and what they're capable of and what their part. Let them reveal that. Now let me focus on the three things I get to focus on. I get to control what I think about this. I get control what I do and don't do and how much time I spend or don't spend. And I get to control what I do with the emotions that rise up. There you go. And if I'm chilling in my power and I see that this is that

narcissistic personality style coming, I don't take the bait. I don't expect them to be different. I see it coming a mile away. I do not expend any energy, but I keep them in my, you know, I keep them in my life because I choose to, not because I feel guilty, not because I feel like I have to, but because based on my values, I'm not just cutting this person out. Right. And I like that because you take the power back. Yes. You always has a power. And it's yours. And it's all in let them. And I will say, You have made this out to Jill. Of course. Jill is going to backflip when she get this.

Did you read the inside? Oh, my, oh, my God. Can I read it? It's a, yeah, I know, but there's a. Can I, yeah. Oh, my goodness. Paul loves you, and so do I love Mel. You know, thank you so much.

You're welcome. Really, thank you. And I tell you what, do you know who, you know Westmore? Yeah. So, Westmore, for anyone who doesn't know, he's the current governor in Maryland. And I interviewed Wes. Yeah. Well, watch where I'm going with this. Watch where I'm going with this. I interviewed Wes probably 10 years ago. Really? And I was the first on record to say that I believe you're going to be

the governor of the state of Maryland. And you will rise to the executive office one day. I said, that 10 years ago. He said, no, no, no, no, no. And the reason why I said that is because I said, you know what, the people need you. What you have, we need. It's not a want anymore. We need it. No. After spending this time with you, after doing this research, I'm going to tell you what, the people need you. And I'm not going to say anything other than the people need you. We do. We need not just what you have to say, but how you deliver it. You deliver it with care. You deliver it with passion.

And you deliver it clearly with assertiveness that people need you. Well, thank you. I feel like when the world feels very dark, your job as a human being is to glow. And that's all that I'm doing. I'm reminding you to do the same thing too. All right. We love it. We love it. So then we're down to the final question that everybody gets. Okay.

The final question is this. You think back to all of the conversations that you've had in this incredible life that you have had. Mm-hmm. What is the most memorable? Who was it with? And what did you learn? I think the most memorable conversation that I have had was had to be with Oprah Winfrey. So when I met Oprah for the first time, what month are we in? So six months ago. Yes. So I met her for the first time six months ago.

And after, you know, she, you're kind of, I'm held over here and I'm at her house in Montecito and I'm walking onto the set of her podcast and you hear her incredible voice. And it's like, Mel Robbins. that I've always all like this interview was going to be the pinnacle of my career and it was for me like it was something I had I grew up coming home and my mom would have her on when she was on WSB in Chicago and so I embraced her and she is so beautiful just radiant and then she grabs me by the shoulders, and she said, do you know what you've done? And this part was not on film, but she said, you know, there, and I said, I do. I said, this is not about a book. She said, you're exactly right. She, and I said, I feel our ancestors and ancient wisdom. I feel like,

you know, I'm part of this slipstream of something bigger that's happening right now, this force for good that is rising up in a moment where it feels very overwhelming and scary for people. And she said there have been three times in my entire career that somebody has written a generation defining book. The first was the road last traveled. The second was the secret. The third was a whole new earth by Eckert Tolle. And now this. and she said there are just times where somebody's chosen to put a message into the world exactly when it's needed. She says that literally she looked at me and said

that everything that I am doing right now and that I have written in this book and that I put into my podcast is exactly what she was trying to teach people when she was on television those 25 years. And it was this spiritual moment where I realized I was meeting somebody who I have admired my entire life. And I didn't need anything from her. I was actually her peer.

And that she respected and admired my work as much as I respect and admire hers. And I never, like, the experience of having, of meeting somebody. that admires you as much as you admire them is incredible. And so that conversation, I think just more than anything else, because it kind of sounds a little arrogant the way that I said it, it was, I felt like I really could own the amount of work that I've done on myself, the amount of work that I've put into the last 16 years, and step into this moment right now and do what needs to be done. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I'd say on behalf of millions and millions and millions of us, thank you.

Well, thank you. I can hear it. Thank you. Yeah, really. Thank you. Thank you. Keep standing in the light. That's right. Keep standing in the light. We're all going to turn it on. There she is. She's already, she has millions upon millions of listeners, millions of people buying her, books, hundreds of thousands of people showing up to her shows, but yet you could still see she doesn't feel like she's done enough. I'm most surprised that she got emotional. Oprah makes everyone cry. Oprah made me cry. Yeah. Oprah makes everyone cry. When I was talking to my wife, Jill, about what she loves most about Mel Robbins. My wife loves that Mel has lived experience and when she speaks, she's not just regurgitating information.

For example, she grew up in a totally different area of the United States than I did. We are different ethnicity, different gender, but yet I resonate with her lived experience. And that is the Mel Robbins magic. The Mel Robbins magic that she's been able to bottle that very few people in the the world have been able to bottle is that we're able to instantly connect with her message. Remember when she talked about she was a public defender and she had to very quickly gain trust. She's been able to do that with the world.

She's been able to gain our trust. And we believe in her. I have watched countless, countless Mel Robbins interviews. I have never seen one like this. Hey, Mama. Thanks for making all my favorite recipes. Hi, Ma. Thanks for your unfiltered advice. Hi, Mom. Thanks for always being by the phone.

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