We Need To Talk with Paul C. Brunson - Myleene Klass EXCLUSIVE: I Caught My Ex Husband Cheating At My Birthday Party! He Said I Emasculated Him

Episode Date: July 29, 2025

In this episode of We Need To Talk, broadcaster, musician, and campaigner Myleene Klass shares the deeply personal story behind the headlines. From discovering her ex partner’s infidelity on her birthday to surviving four miscarriages, Myleene opens up about the private pain she carried for years - and the strength it took to keep moving forward. She reflects on the overnight fame with Hear’Say, the pressure of life in the spotlight, and the exploitation she faced behind the scenes. But through loss and hardship, Myleene transformed her grief into a powerful voice for women’s health rights, fought for legal changes, and earned an MBE for her campaigning. Myleene reveals: ◽️ The moment she caught her ex cheating with someone famous ◽️ Why her wedding day was filled with tears ◽️ How the divorce nearly broke her ◽️ The highs and lows of Hear’Say◽️ Whether there will be a Hear’Say reunion  ◽️ Her encounter with Harvey Weinstein  ◽️ Her painful journey through multiple miscarriages ◽️ How she turned grief into campaigning and earned an MBE ◽️ Why she finally believes in love again If you've ever loved, lost or felt betrayed - this conversation will stay with you. Myleene Klass, We Need To Talk. Content warning: This episode contains discussion of miscarriage and baby loss. We’ve included links to support charities below: Tommy’s: https://g2ul0.app.link/yiLgVePdnVb Sands: https://g2ul0.app.link/1c7K7WVdnVb Follow me here: https://www.instagram.com/needtotalk  https://www.tiktok.com/@weneedtotalkpod  Follow Myleene here: Instagram: https://g2ul0.app.link/nVClu9venVb TikTok: https://g2ul0.app.link/cZTElXyenVb (00:00) Intro (02:14) Myleene's Parents and How They Met (05:09) Growing Up and Facing Racism in Great Yarmouth (09:35) Where Does Myleene's Love of Music Come From? (12:24) Myleene's Journey to Popstars (17:11) Hearsay's Catapult into Fame After Popstars Finished (20:45) Myleene's Experience of the 'Wild West' Music Industry (35:48) Myleene's Encounter with Harvey Weinstein (38:50) Returning to Classical Music Post-Hear'Say (40:53) Myleene's Experience of 'I'm a Celeb' (43:46) Myleene's First Brand Deal with M&S (48:27) Treatwell Ad (49:40) Tinder Ad (50:53) Myleene's Complicated Relationship History (53:31) How Myleene Met Her Ex-Husband (55:38) Myleene's Wedding to Her Ex-Husband (1:10:40) Myleene's Current Relationship (1:21:41) Myleene's History of Miscarriages and Her Campaigning (1:27:40) Myleene Getting an MBE for Her Campaigning (1:36:52) Most Memorable Conversation (1:42:23) Paul's Takeaways Treatwell: http://Treatwell.co.uk with code PAUL10 - T&Cs apply Tinder: https://tinder.com/en-GB Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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The Hilton sale is on now. Book on Hilton.com or the Hilton app and save up to 20% to get the stay you expected. When you want savings, not surprises. It matters where you stay. Hilton for the stay. When you need to build up your team to handle the growing chaos at work, use Indeed sponsored jobs. It gives your job posts the boost it needs to be seen and helps reach people

with the right skills, certifications, and more. Spend less time searching and more time actually interviewing candidates who check all your boxes. Listeners of this show will get a $75 sponsor job credit at Indeed.com slash podcast. That's Indeed.com slash podcast. Terms and conditions apply. Need a hiring hero? This is a job for Indeed sponsored jobs. I walked in on my ex with a famous person on my birthday. My life literally just broke apart very, very publicly. Who was it with? That'll definitely get your lawyers and I'll pick off.

And it was overnight fame, selling millions of records. Music industry is the Wild West. I've been screwed over by agents, managers, stole the money. So who do you trust at this time? Own each other. And it was heartbreaking because I didn't want it to end. Can we talk about relationships? Okay, let's go there.

I asked him why he wouldn't sign the preempt. up. I was just crying. My eyes out. The entire wedding. Why was the divorce so contentious? I was like, just please don't take my money. He just pushed this little post-it note across the table with the figure he wanted. Let's talk about Simon, your new man. I had a new lease of life. At what point did you feel as if this could be my partner? The image of my baby floating down into the dark will haunt me till the die die. Every year it felt I was pregnant and every year I lost a baby. It's just So many women don't get to hold their babies. In order to make change, it doesn't happen in clinics. It happens in Westminster. Your advocacy has resulted in you having an MBE.

Mileen, you are a national treasure. All right. Before we begin, I want to say from the bottom of my heart, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you. Why? Because we can't believe how far we've come with this podcast. But in particular, we've come this far because of you. Your support means everything, whether it's a comment, whether it's a DM, whether I get stopped in the street, which I do and I appreciate. I just want to say how much we appreciate. And if you have not yet subscribed, I want you to click the subscribe button or hit that bell icon. What it allows us to do is bringing more and more of these incredible conversations. And that being said, let's get into it.

Mylene class, we need to talk. Okay? Okay. And here's where. I would love to start with your parents. What, roughly, what year was it when your parents came together as a couple? So my dad's originally from Austria. Okay.

I mean, you work it out. They're landlocked, but he's a diver and a captain. Like, how did that happen? Well, he ran away from home when he was 15 and joined the Navy. So there was a rebellion, the right there. Okay. Interesting. Yeah.

And then my mom came from the Philippines and she came with like the wind rush generation. So the call out, you always think of the West Indies and you think of, you know, there's a very specific group of people when you think wind rush generation. But if you look at the NHS of what it looks like today, if you pulled the Filipino community out of it,

you would, you'd flaw the NHS. Wow, look at that. Yeah. So roughly what year was that, do you think? Seat, oh, 76. Okay, mid-70s. Yeah. Okay. So now it just so happens that I did some research around the mid-70s.

Okay. This may or may not blow your mind. This is because you're a history major. Oh my gosh. I love history. If I could be anything, I would be anything else, should I say. I would be a history teacher. Yeah, but you are because history is written by the winners and you're writing it. This is good. Thank you for that. You can have it. I'll take that. So mid-1970s, point four.

of the population was what mixed race or mixed ethnicity relationships. Point four. So that's less than one out of 100. Whereas today you fast forward in the UK, it is 20% of the population. And it's predicted to be 50% or more in London in the next few years. Well, it's the fastest growing group of ethnicities, the mixed race generations now.

But when I was growing up, I wasn't even asked where I was from. I was just asked, what are you? Though when, as you've pointed out, it's just being mixed race just was not a thing. You grew up, was it Great Yarmouth? The rabbit's tail, if you're looking at Great Britain and, yeah. Okay, fair enough. A little blob on the end. But it was not an easy place to grow up in when you are mixed race.

Well, let's talk about growing up. Okay. You know, what is your most happy memory, early memory as a little girl? I have really good memories from growing up, actually. I used to love going to pick strawberries. It's very Norfolk coded. I'm waiting for my brother and sister to come out of their piano lesson. I'd just go and pick the rows of strawberries.

And just hearing that buzz of the electric pylons above you, it's just a really sort of visceral memory. Okay. Eating more strawberries than you can pick. Yes. Farmer chasing you off the land, that kind of thing. But then as you also mentioned, it was challenging as well for you. Hugely challenging.

You know, my mom's a very smart woman, and I think she must have probably chosen to ignore a lot. I remember people would do, probably it's the equivalent of trolling now, but they'd send, like, Thai bride catalogs to my house. Again, it's the wrong Asian. It's like, it's only now that people are beginning to understand they're just different Asians. Yes.

I remember being on a coach and everyone doing sort of the eyes. But when you've got a whole coach doing it, pulling up, you know, another coach of school kids who are all doing this to you. And it's pure racism. And the embarrassment, the heat, just wanting to disappear, just feeling that moment of just being different. Did you have any conversations with your parents about what you were going through and how certain people were antagonizing you.

Oh, my dad marched into school once. He did. He marched into school once because everyone was, the racial slurs. Again, they'd probably show you at what age of this was happening, but my nickname was chink. And I remember my dad just walking in, well, going straight up to the guy and the boy at school. Like, I'm the dad.

And my dad does not look Chinese. It's not at all. Right. What age do you think that was for you? nine it was nine you know what i find so interesting about that nine so that's what like year three yeah almost you know it was my sons my youngest son his first year in school ever was year three because we had homeschooled him oh wow prior uh and then we moved to the uk and so he enters the uk year three is his first year nine years old you think nine years old what harm does a nine year old

child do. And I distinctly remember that my son, who is black, was playing with another black child in the playground. And another child who was not black, nine-year-old, walks up to them with a Lego that he's created in the shape of a gun. And he says, this is what I use to kill all the black people. Wow. It's a nine-year-old. A nine-year-old. And I remember when I heard that story, I thought, okay, he's nine. So where do you learn this from? Exactly. Right.

And you think about that. So at nine, you are receiving the equivalent of that at nine. But do you think that those incidents were ever taken seriously? No. By the school or by the community? Never. Never. No.

Okay. I know they weren't for sure. You know, if my mom can have her children. called mongrel to her face that's where was she supposed to go with that you know I don't even know our conversation would go

here but what I realize is that wherever the conversation goes is typically what is on the heart of the guest right and I go with with them on that so well no you started with my mom and dad

and then when I think well it's a break move to go to a suburban town. It is. Goulston, Norfolk, Great Yarmouth, they're the only ones who have voted reform. How did you growing up in that culture, how did that impact you and your identity? I remember trying not to get a sun tan and trying to powder my face to be whiter. My sister remembers it so well because she reckons my skin's good now because I went through a goth phase.

So she would be out there with the oil and I would be just hiding from the sun. Look at that. Yeah. Look at that. And I would open my eyes and I would really just try and work on fitting in. All right. But it obviously didn't work. And the weirdest thing is it's been the making of me, being socially luminal, being sort of not fitting in any one place but fitting in everywhere.

I worked for CNN for nine years because people didn't know if I was Latina or Asian or Spanish. You know, that social, being socially luminous just gave me an opportunity to actually be everything. Yes. But music was a staple in the household as well for you. Where did that come from? So my dad's from six generations of classical musicians. So there's Russians in there and Hungarians and they're incredible choreographers. We've got the Gislavskis who are ballet dancers and a choreographer at the Viennese Opera House.

My granddad, I inherited his violin, had a mandolin. to the Chagrin of the family, never learnt to play it. I learnt to play everything else. It was just, my grandmother, she's an opera singer. So it was really big. At the time, I didn't connect the dots. So my dad would drive me to Wales when my grandmother lived and he'd play Wagner and then I'd bargain for a few Kylie tracks.

It's quite a mixed take. Oh my God. So you, I mean, you liked all music, but you wanted to be a little pop. You liked a little pop in your life. I wanted to sing Kylie and, you know, the B-52s. But what's so brilliant about it now, and I'm so grateful, is I wasn't fed a diet of one genre, and it informs everything else. And now I've poured that into my kids because I've recognized the power of it

because music is socially minimal. Music has been the one language that everybody speaks. And it's meant that I can go anywhere in the world. And I can, whether it's the Yap Islands and I'm playing to a tribe on a piano that we've managed to get over from Nagasaki, whether it's in the Congo where we're just beating out rhythms because none of us can speak the same language. You can speak music. It's all of those incredible things. Music opened up every door that I've ever been able to walk through from hearsay through to getting a,

scholarship at the academy, which my parents wouldn't have been able to afford. And I've now gone full circle and now a lecturer at the academy. Yeah, look at that. It's just opened up door after door, and I am so grateful for it. So when you began playing as a young girl, you didn't have a voice. Is that fair to say? Yeah, yeah, I think that's fair to say. But so much so that when I was in primary school, we found one of my reports quite recently,

and the family think it's hilarious. But the report says if Mylene's name wasn't on the register, we wouldn't know she was in the class. So then what I'm confused then is, how does someone who doesn't have a voice, right, then end up on pop stars? Using her voice. Literally using her voice. I know by accident. By accident. How?

How do connect the dots for me? So the dots are, got all my grandparents. started teaching, got some money together, then went to the Guildhall, music school, got a scholarship to the Royal Academy of Music. And I found that my superpower is I can hear a piece of music and I can play it. No problem. And so I could make money at music college just by cutting people's music, cutting it down. A lot of the vocalists didn't know how to arrange their music. So I had money. When you've got money, you've got freedom.

You've got choice. And because I was a sight singer, a lot of singers can pick music up very quickly, but they can't sight read. Okay. I didn't have to be the best. I am no Celine Dion, but I can graft my way to whatever job needs to be done. And I got work as a session singer. So they'd say, come in, Katie Lang needs you to sing this. you're going to be on radio in 10 minutes and that'd be it.

And so I could just cite read the part and then I'd get more work. My look meant that I'm sure boxes were ticked. Okay. So that was good too. And so I realized, you know, I had a more commercial look suddenly. The reason I didn't think I would get hired in the past was the very reason I was getting work. And then the royalty started coming in. So all these repeat fees.

I thought at the time I was going to go into music theatre. I did do music theatre for a year and realised it was almost a bit like an office job for me, going to the same place, the same hours, and I wanted something new. So I turned down, after doing Miss Saigon, I turned down a role as Mary Magdalene for a role in here so, which came about

because I was working on the Lily Savage show. Okay. So Lily Savage icon. I was in... She had a show running. I was in the choir. I was a backing vocalist. At the time, I was going around

with all these incredible singers. I'd just been booked to sing back up vocals for Robbie Williams. It turned out we performed at the same gig because that's how quickly I became famous. I was booked to perform at the Brits with Robbie Williams and I ended up singing in my own right at the Bricks. Look at that. Because while I was filming Lily Savage in ITV Studios,

they were auditioning for hearsay in ITV studios. All right. So from what I understand, okay, and you have to walk me through this because this is roughly 2000, right? 1999 because the Millennium, Melendial Prayer. I sang with Cliff Richard as his backing vocalist. And then Millennium with Robert Lee Williams. All right.

That was what I was hired to do, yes. So 1999, but the show, so ITV is then doing pop stars. Yeah. Okay. So Pop Stars was a show to literally create a band. Yeah. Okay. So you then are casted to be part of, potentially part of this band.

Yeah. All right. So the first question. I have is that you're a classically trained artist. So at all are you thinking there's any shame doing pop? Does family place any shame on you for going in this direction? My dad was horrified that I'd given up a year's work as Mary Magdalene. And it's Mary Magdalene, don't forget.

Yes. Yes. For six weeks in a band. I was told you'll get six weeks work in a band over Christmas. And I was like, well, that sounds fun. I had a culture shock because I was sitting in this room and everyone was crying and everyone was unprepared and no one had learnt their lines or their songs and they'd been given parts to learn and you're going to be given different configurations and they're going to see which songs blend with which voices and learn the dance moves and I could not get it in my head that nobody was learning it. And that's not even Asian value. That's like Royal Academy and that's being in Miss Saigon and West End theatre and it's like just the training is do the job.

job that someone's asked you to do. But in so doing it, I nearly lost out because one day the rehearsal pianist didn't show up. And that's how I got in the band. I was playing. I remember it was a certain member of Liberty X who was like, I don't know what I'm singing. I don't, I haven't cut my music. And I'll cut your music for you. And I cut it down to, I don't know, 20 bars. And I was playing it. And then Nigel Liscoe, Paul Adam, Nicky Chapman. We all walked in, Nigel said, you can play the piano. Why didn't you say it? And I was like, you never are. That's sealed a deal. Yeah.

All right. So you're now in the group. And your thought is that you're going to be a part of something for just a few weeks. And that's it. So help for everyone who had not seen pop stars, though. How does the show end? And then how does that catapult the group into the zeitgeist of the UK public? It's so weird because I wrote two years worth of diaries around this entire experience.

And when I read them back and when I look back at all of this, and then I match it up to what was going on, you know, on the outside, I suppose, looking in. I mean, it was fame like you could never, ever, you know, encounter. It was like parody. It was like something like a spinal tap or it was like the Beatles. People were coming to our shows and there were crushes at the signings. And it was overnight fame selling millions of records that we'd only just heard this on ourselves. it was pretty instantaneous.

And I was so glad to have the rest of the band going through it at the same time. And so as much as we were all together all the time, probably driving each other nuts, also we became like family because it was just us. But we were at the absolute height. It was both the Halcyon Days of Fame. Yes. Because, as I know, 25 million tuned in to see us become this best.

and get the number one and what happens now. It was 25 million. Yes. It was this event viewing. It was just the beginning of the internet. It was the beginning of camera phones. Because we were right at the very dawn of it. I remember it very clearly.

Somebody first put in their phone in my face and Danny from the band going, oh my God, the phones have got cameras now. We're not safe. It was just, it was all happening at once. Because before that, we had the flip phones. We were like, we were advertising the flip phones. Yeah. I mean, that's practically.

at that time, there's practically half the population of the UK. That's incredible. Oh, it was, it's so, you know, I say it to my children now, tried to paint the picture for them what it was like. But it was just, it was overnight fame, and it was just huge. So pure and simple, first, right? It debuts at number one in the UK charts. It becomes the fastest selling debut single at the time, right?

So sets a record for that. So can we speak to what actually happened behind the scenes? Here's when I, once again, I was not here. So I didn't live through it, but I've now experienced it. You've lived through the culture of it. I've lived through the culture of it for sure. And I've now lived through the research of it. And what I find to be so fascinating is I don't think I've ever seen a group go from obscurity to notoriety and then break up in such a

short period of time. Yeah. Because it was, in essence, correct me if I'm wrong here, 2000, 2001. Yeah. To 2002. About 18 months. 18 months. I mean, we thought we were going to be bigger than you too.

We didn't even get, I don't know, we got out of one territory. I think we got number one in New Zealand as well. Okay. But now I know the nature of the beast and how it worked and how it operated. You know, is that be careful what you wish for. We had everything. But we were also broke. We had these number ones, but we didn't have the advance through yet.

We didn't know how the business side of music worked. I knew music. I knew some of the chords better than the producers working with us. But I didn't know business. Did you have agents assigned to you? Boy, we have agents. But problem number two, it just is an industry as we are learning that can attract any facet of society, any kind of character.

There is no graded scheme of entry. You can have a mate who's like, oh, do you know what? My brother drives cars. And suddenly the next thing you know, he's the driver. Next thing, you know, he's the tool manager. Suddenly, you can work your way up in a very different manner. And you don't know, you know, no one's DBS checked.

Nobody's, there's nothing. Right. It's just, it's not like, hi, I'm a brain surgeon. I'll have a go. Right. It's a very different set of rules and operational skills. The music industry is the Wild West. Yes.

Now, when did you, first recognize it was the Wild West because I would imagine that when you enter the show, you're still somewhat guarded, you're very optimistic about what's going to happen, you don't know how large you're going to be, and then as the notoriety comes, that's when, that's when, should I say, leeches come. Oh, yeah. Right. But what was the first moment where you realized, oh my God, what am I doing here? What's going on? What is this? What? What is this? I mean, there were so many of those epiphanies. It was just relentless.

I think it was what the gloves came off when anyone could say anything they wanted to about your families. I found information where they were trying to find out about my family in the Philippines, really digging deep. And you are then answerable to all those people. You have a responsibility. So you're not now just singing pure and simple

of all three and a half minutes of it on stage and learning the dance routines. You're now trying to look after your family. There's people coming out that suddenly they need money. I mean, I never knew I had so much family. They were suddenly like... Interesting. So people coming out that would work...

Oh, yeah. Beth friends that you hadn't spoken to, everybody. You know, and it's a lot, it's a lot for young minds to deal with. Yes. On top of the constant scrutiny, the body image, scrutiny, sexuality, who you're with, who you're not with, what you said, what you didn't say. So who do you trust at this time? Only each other.

Only each other. I mean, my hands are tied because there's so much I would love to say to you, but obviously there was other forces at play as well with phone-tappings and things. But I guess you can move between the lines that the only time we can really be really safe, is when we're just talking to each other. But then you imagine five of us trauma bonded all going through the same thing, all terrified that each other's secrets

or family secrets or worries or woes. And sometimes those stories would be fake. Sometimes those stories would be planted. Sometimes those stories, yeah, are used to cover up something else. Like you never know what's true. Well, you've got to remember, no agent is a lone shark.

All agents, you know, they might have other bands. So all you need to do, if you really want to start getting into it is match up which agent has which fans and match up which person got protected. And suddenly it all starts to make sense. And then suddenly you start realizing, well, who is playing what? Which role, yeah.

So is it, did you feel protected during that time? We were not protected. We were not protected. We were almost bait, I would say. I have been screwed over by agents, managers, dodgy accountants. Can we talk about the end of, of the group before it disbanded. Because it was one thing that I read is that,

you know, there were moments where you were touring and as you said, it's people, it's thousands upon thousands showing up, cheering you on. Yeah. But then there were moments towards the end where there weren't cheers at the time. No. I remember someone throwing chicken chameen at me. That's how the racism came back in again on stage.

Things like that. Yeah. Or nobody shows. going up, no manager, no tour manager. I remember my brother, because he wasn't old enough to drive, getting on his bike to drop off a duct tape so that we could perform. So the Greek could perform.

I got told by my manager because I said the backdrops really creased. What are we going to do? And he went, you're going to have to iron it. Have you ever seen how big a backdrop is? Literally you're going to have to iron it. I'm like, where are you? It turned out he was where he shouldn't have been so that I had a phone call from his wife.

That's how hearsay ended. It fizzled. It just was left. It was just left to die. I closed out. I turned the lights out. Literally. I literally turned the lights out.

And it was heartbreaking. Because at the time, I didn't want it to end. It was, we took a vote. Everything was about a vote. And I've made peace with it now because I realized that we're all kids. None of us were in control of it. But I didn't want it to end. But the vote was yes.

And I remember walking into. a meeting where one guy said, we've got 250,000 Easter eggs with your faces on them. What are we going to do? I was like, I don't know. Like, it almost, it was almost comical. What, I haven't got an answer. Yes. As to what you're going to do with 250,000. But I can imagine, because if I'm on the receiving end now and I put all my money into this group and they can't get their act together and I've invested all this money and Easter's on the way.

Then, but how does the, group go on this demise so quickly because so I understand the pressure being placed I understand that the agents are not consistent uh I understand all of those aspects but at the same time it was like it was consistent hits the debut album reached number one and sold over a million copies so you were red hot the group was red hot how does it fall off so quickly I think we just didn't have have anyone who was solidifying us as a group. So at the time, it's, it's the, yeah, the same old story, but it was major mismanagement.

Because as a mum now, I know that you have to rally the troops. Yes. And if you've got people going off in different directions, as a mom, someone's got to bring you all back together and go, right, this is what we're doing. This is when we're doing it. What does the group need? You're only as strong as the weakest performer person, personality,

whatever's going on there with that person and in that moment you carry them and when I look back at what was going on we were not a solid unit and we were not being encouraged to be either so if there was a cheeky booking here and there was a shoot here

well if I'm the manager and I'm like well let's bring in the money I'd just send everyone out on all of these separate gigs and in so doing you then cause division in the ranks I see everyone had come from humble beginnings not one person in that band had some privileged upbringing.

And so that that was taken advantage of. And rather than seeing the power of the group, we were divided. I see. Can you disclose how much you made during that period? It's not a patron one I make now because it was split between five, the band. Then it was split with the manager six. Then it was split with the record company, seven. Then it was split with the TV company, eight.

then you bring in tax. I mean, all those people that were trying to take advantage of us. They did it with our time and our image, and they obviously took their cut. But we weren't making the amount of money that people think we were. I mean, we've just talked about a lot of challenging moments, right, in that 18 months. But I would imagine there were some incredible moments. Oh, David, Sam, Zipa, we sang with Lionel Ritchie. Did you?

We sang with Lionel Ritchie. Oh, my gosh. He walked out on stage and we were some. One of us cried and one of us, we were just, I was just, it's on Ritchie. It's like, I played the piano for Shaka Khan. It's like, you know, all the things you dream of doing and then you're doing them. Yes. It's just magical.

And that's what makes it worth it. What was the most, I mean, performing with Linal Ritchie playing for Shaka Khan. I mean, those are up there. Was there anything that you think, this is like, this is what I will tell my grandchildren. this moment. Okay, so the very first concert that I ever went to was my own, and it was at Wembley. So when I said, hello, Wembley,

I couldn't even get the words out, because it was just magic. And then this piano rises up from the floor, and I play the piano, because I'm not actually the best anything. I know that, I get that about myself. It's fine. I'm very, very lucky, and with the luck,

and those opportunities that I've been able to line up. I've just carried on working for it through the pain, through the hours. I'm a cart horse. I make up for those failings in being a cart horse. Interesting. So even in hearsay, you didn't find yourself to be particularly great. No. I just thought you were what?

Really lucky. Yeah. Yes. You didn't consider yourself talented? I think I have a talent for sure But I'm very aware that there are incredible talents out there But you didn't consider yourself talented I think I have talent for sure

But all the things that I've done When you put them all together You know, I get to do so many jobs You know, in one day I look at all the mixture of jobs I never wanted an office job. I have friends who want the stability of it, and that to me is the thing that would suffocate me. I love difference.

I get bored very quickly. I find it hard to be satisfied, and I get to do all of those things. And I still, maybe it's imposter syndrome, but I do still feel like, oh my God, this is incredible. I'm so lucky. That you're so lucky.

This is interesting, because I've asked a few times, it sounds like you can't, say the words that you felt as if you were talented you were lucky you were at the right place at the right time that's true all those things are

there's always an Asian that can do better there is it's just it's true it is true but it's funny because when I meet other people who come along and they're often my producers who yeah I've written this song and but you did not find yourself you didn't you didn't believe

that you were talented at that time in that group? I didn't feel that I had the more popular attributes that the band had. Like, you know, they were funnier than me. They just had that sort of swagger. That's not sort of, it wasn't my background. It wasn't.

No. Did you at all feel like you were going through imposter syndrome? Yeah. I've got it every day. Every day. Yeah. On stage?

God, I remember finding out what a tax write-off was. And I remember thinking most of PSA was a tax write-off was. And I remember thinking most of PSA was a tax-stress. right off. I'm like, God, any minute they're going to just go, oops. They made a mistake. Yeah. Yeah. Really? Yeah. Miley, really? Yes.

When you reflect back and look at it, do you feel like you were, did you deserve to be there? Looking back now, I'm like, I do think, like, God, I was there, yeah. It's definitely earned my stripes, and I definitely did the time. But at the time, But at the time, I remember thinking it was just so magical and so everything that I'd ever dared to dream of.

I couldn't believe it. Wow. Okay. Just a few more in here, say, we'll move on. Yeah. Are you in touch with any of the band members today? We do go through peaks and troughs and flurries for sure. I mean, it's 25 years ago.

So some more than others for sure. I think it's almost a bit like an office it was like an office job from 25 years ago which is sad really because we went through so much so yeah of course we you know when big things happen we all jackaling on each other okay will we ever have a hearsay reunion funny because I've learnt now I keep on saying never say never say never

but it's you never know now you never know well if I say no then this will be the this will be played out across the arena see I like already you said arena well I've got to think big I've got to put us there I've got to give us a running jump

yes I like it so never say never there could be you never know I before I would have been a definitive it's never going to happen I'm sure they would have been the same but I think as you get older you just realize you know you'll grow up and you just think who knows who knows why we'll be in the same room again together or for what reason. But again, I don't know.

I actually don't know. Yes, yes. So I see this. It's 25 years coming up. Exactly. I mean, nothing's planned. But people are interested in the diaries. People are interested in very interested in the diaries.

I think there must be some people very scared as well. Yeah, I managed to. Rightly so. Can you give us any taste of what you have in the diary? because I think that there will, to your point, there are people who will be scared. But in guarding those names, what's in the diaries? Everything.

Everything. I mean, the lawyers saw the diaries and then they sort of redacted everything. And then it was like just being given a black piece of paper with just three, four words sometimes. Just, they were like, this is just libelious. I'm not sitting here gatekeeping. I just don't need to get sued by every 80s pop star that made a move on us or every manager that thinks they might be in there. But, you know, the people that are being even now outed for their behavior.

Yes. Nobody is shocked ever, are they? Did Harvey Weinstein offer you a sex contract? Yes. I interviewed him because I was in Cannes. I was working for CNN, as I did for nine years. And we were trying to show, because it was a behind-the-scenes working, we were trying to show how do you get a movie from its infancy of a, say,

I don't know, an inception or a script to the big screen. Okay. And then I met Harvey at a party And I did a mini interview with him And like the press run And then after that he came and found me And I gave him the bare bones of what we were covering To the point that I was so convinced

That we were going to have a work meeting We were going to actually have it as an interview That I even said, should I bring the crew? Or is this the meeting, you know, the preliminaries Just to pad out what it is we're going to be discussing And he's like, it's fine, John. bring the crew. Just because we're on this.

Yeah. I'm just, this is, so I've, I've not heard of a sex contract before. Well, it's, I'll, you have sex with me and I'll make you famous. And I said, I'm already famous in the areas I want to be. Well, you can be in this movie like X, Y, Z started naming all these women. And then I said, well, I don't want to be in the movies. But it's literally that. He literally says this.

Yes. It's so mad. Yes. I believe every one. woman that came forward because I sat there. I was utterly devastating so I didn't know if I was going to get out. How did you escape?

I said we'd be in touch. I made it very business-like, I suppose. I got out. Dinner, lunch finished and I got out. You know, from hearing it firsthand, you know, from you,

I can't imagine what that experience is, especially knowing that you were going for entirely different reason. Any woman will tell you, it's flight, isn't it? Any woman who's been in that position where somebody's being predatory, they don't have to come with a weapon.

You know, we feel it in our gut. We know immediately when we're in danger. Yes. And this is, you know, I got asked to talk about the music industry recently and what do you think about the sexualization of that Sabrina Carpenter is putting on to our young minds And I'm like, well, we had Madonna.

And before that, we had X, Y, and Z. That is not new. What is, is, is, is not okay, is the people that take advantage. And it is usually these middle-aged men who are cast in the dice and deciding how we are represented or when we can be cast aside. And women, especially, we feel that every single day without us even realizing. It's just innately in us. Yeah, yeah.

So you come out of hearsay. and what's the next career move for you? Classical music. Go back to my roots. Go back to something I know. Would you say classical music is your first love? Classical music's like a leveler for me. It runs through all of us. Twinkle twinkle twinkle is classical music. Twinkle twinkle, what's still?

Yes. It was taken by Mozart. It's a French nursery rhyme. Mozart developed it into twinkle twinkle that you know today. Wow. Yeah. Happy birthday. written by two incredible women every time we sing it. Like, you know, when you think of how classical music runs through everything, it's got its own heartbeat. Paca Bell's canon's written by a man called Pacaabell,

it's a series of chords that every single pretty much pop song uses from Oasis all the way through to Maroon 5. You know, there are so many different styles that have come from what is ultimately classical music. And it's just been sort of canonized by people who want to keep it in this box. But Mozart, when he was writing, I mean, if he was alive today,

he wrote some of the most vulgar songs. It would make an M&M blush. Really? Yes. You say Mozart was a grime artist. Yes. Yes. Was he?

I don't know how your German is. He wrote a song called Lichmich in Dem Arche. You can figure out what that means. Really? Oh my gosh. Oh my gosh. My stomach hurts all over. So.

So I wrote it. Most I wrote that. Yeah. He was vulgar and fun. He wrote all the operas you listen to now. They were written for people to pass the whistle test that we could all sing along to. The whistle test is something that a lot of pop artists use. So if you can whistle it, it's a hit.

So they call it the whistle test. And his songs, like the magic flutes, they were considered pantomime at the time. They were like, just right, give it to the, give it to the boy. So they all passed the whistle test. Yeah. All right. So then how does your television career really start? Is it I'm a celebrity?

Is that first catapult? Yeah. So I did, I've done I'm a celebrity twice. But the first time I did it, it just came left to fields. It changed everything. Okay. I had nothing left to prove. But I think I just looked sort of just, I don't know, not very capable, I would probably say, like a bit small and dull like somebody said when I went in.

And it was really nice to go in and just show that I'm tough. I am mentally extremely strong. And I don't think a lot of people probably think that. But I'm tough. So did you feel like going on to I'm a celebrity the first time, right? I had nothing to lose. It was nothing to lose, but it was, but I have something to prove. I think I had a lot to prove to myself.

Everybody that knew me said, don't do it, bar a couple of people. My best mate, Lauren, Laurenne, she said to do it. Did you go further in I'm a celebrity than you thought you would? Every single time someone picked the phone up who kept me up. who kept me in, I couldn't believe it. Couldn't believe it. And then when I got out, it's really funny because I actually thought

I was going to either get a rice commercial because I made the rice. So they kept burning the rice. You know, I'm Asian. I've got the rice. Like this I could do. What are you all doing to the rice? Like my Filipino auntie must have been like,

what are you doing? Everyone puts too much water. Yeah, yeah. And then they then kill it. Yeah, so I got involved. You didn't think that you would get a white bikini commercial. Are you sure? I was in there with Fina Arucce, who was in a program called Footballers Wives,

who looks like this Amazonian goddess. And I was in there with Faith, who, bless her, I am not well endowed, but Faith got the gift. And I thought that, you know, those shower scenes, I admit, looking from the outside looking in, they look great. But what you don't see is if they just frame out a little bit wider, you've got Dean Gaffney and Toby Anstice, all waiting with their razors and their soap and their towels

because you're in and then you're out, and the next person's in and then they're out. Because that waterfall is on and off. Yes. They decide when you're going to wash and when you're not. Yes. But now, if we could talk about that scene in particular, because I've noticed a lot of online chatter about those scenes.

It was the most Googled. I was the most Googled name, Glover. believe, top three during that time. Okay. It was a moment. It was a moment. It was a serious moment. Yeah.

You know? Honestly, I couldn't have written that script. It was written for me. I went in with a stripy bikini. And I was told moments before you can't wear that. It's going to strobe on camera. Go and get a plain bikini. You don't even have long.

Go with the researcher because you weren't allowed to meet or bump into anybody else. You get the plainest bikini you can. confined and I went into the shop and I said I need the plainest bikini you go should remember well here's a white bikini I owe that girl I had her a phone you owe her a lot I do you are a lot so you would say then that as well as everything else the rice etc contributed to you you were runner up correct I'm runner up that time now runner up on I'm a celebrity especially then right that typically catapults people to the next

do you feel like I'm a celebrity moved you into a different perspective with the audience? 100% it gave me a chance to be a person again. Okay. Honestly, and it was like going to Girl Scouts.

I'd never been to camp. I'd never done anything like that. So I loved every second. You hear people who are just begging to get out. I was begging to stay in. Wow, look at that. Yeah. Look at that.

It was unbelievable. By the time you left I'm a celebrity, do you feel like you had found your voice? I feel like I'd found the confidence. Oh, God, it sounds so... To be me, but I felt it was okay to actually be me. Because there was no editing

because you don't know which bits they're going to use, so you can only be yourself. Yeah. Let's think about that. What year was that? 2006 2006 so 2006

is the first time where you thought it's okay to be me yeah from I'm a celebrity what deals did you actually get coming out of that it changed everything

did it yes and I met some of the most incredible people who I still speak with all the time now I met Twiggy Twiggy's like a goddess yes she is oh my God she was so kind to me

I signed my first brand deal and it was two M&S and so I became one of the M&S girls. And honestly, you imagine walking on to set and, you know, there's your Winni Bego and you want, you want to talk about imposter syndrome. Yeah, it's modeling was never, ever on the cards, ever. No. I built a brand before there was any celebrity brands. I had no blueprint. I know that because I looked at J-Lo. Oh, did you?

Yeah, yeah. J-Lo was your blueprint. Yeah, absolutely. I've got the longest selling celebrity brand in the UK because I looked at Jaila and I looked at how is she doing this? What's she doing? And it's about building the brand around who? So for a lot of people, you know,

I just come out of I'm a celebrity in a bikini and then I got pregnant. And for a lot of people, that would have been death now. Yes. And I could see that you take this very seriously. Very seriously. Yeah. Losing sleep, yes.

You know, looking at trade routes and wondering what the price of, you know, certain fabrics are and her Brexit affects the trade route. It wasn't something you could do when I was pregnant, Bill Brands. If they could have got me, you sent me off to the countryside in the consumption, you know, being pregnant. How dare I be pregnant? pregnant on TV. I could even name the women who were around my peers who were pregnant. You had Holly Willoughby. You had Davina. You had Spice girls. You had the All Saints girls. They were

pregnant and owning that space. But it was very rare. Yes. As soon as you get pregnant in the workspace, they know, well, is she going to be as reliable with, you know, that she's got a family, but they don't question the same of the guys. Right. This is true. Which is why I make sure I show people more so, because I've got a responsibility to all of the other moms. We've got to show that we can we can more than shoulder this. In fact, we work more effectively because we've got to be home for tea time. I'm with you. I've seen what my mother, my aunties, my grandmother in particular, but then what my wife is able to do. And it's something that I know that literally I'm not capable of doing. Hey, Paul. It's time to tell our listeners about our new show sponsor, Treat Well.

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So now, can we talk about relationships? Not my strong point, but sure. You don't feel like you're talented in this category? I'm definitely not talented. Okay. Can we talk about your marriage? Yeah, sure. Okay.

Hey, you're a relationship expert. You could probably shine some light here. I do have many thoughts, but I'd love to hear from you first. So how would you describe your marriage? I will use his words how he would describe it, because it's fascinating to me. I was told I emasculated him. I met my ex when I was extremely von derby.

I'm reading over the diaries quite recently only goes to enforce that. Does it? 100%. Does it? What are you, what do you look at the diaries now? What was going on in your mind in your world? I was in court with two ex-push friends at the time. I'd had one who'd got, him and a friend had sold a photo of me.

for 140,000 pounds, which is a lot now, but take that back 25 years and do the maths. Oh, yeah. And so with that amount of money on my head, you can imagine it was the Wild West. Yes.

I was heartbroken because it was my girlfriend and really angry because it was my negative So then I then went into a new world of ownership rights. So then I was sitting in a lawyer's office, and they were all looking at the negatives, and there's all these old men and lawyers. And I'm sitting there in my UFOs, my baggy pants, in a lawyer's meeting. In that, too, though, is you're talking about someone who was close to you who sold that.

So there's the betrayal of those that you trusted. Yes. But your ex-husband is he security? Yeah. In essence. So is he group, band security? Yeah. You're a specific.

Oh, ban, okay, ban security. Okay, so he's working ban security. You don't have a relationship with him. So then how do you begin to, how do you enter a relationship? Because it's very. Oh, it's so lame. He chucks the guy out of the building. And I'm like, oh, oh, someone's protecting me.

I see. Manager and management not protecting me Rock Company not protecting me Two exes I'm in court I'm with lawyers sweating all over photos of me Really embarrassing Very humiliating And he shows up as a hearing

And I'm going to keep singing pure and simple Yeah yeah Sing it right And iron the backdrop And iron the backdrop Yeah But so he So your ex-husband

He is he He you feel safe with him Yes Yes He protected you. Yes. Physically he protected you.

Okay. Yes. So that becomes romantic. Yes. Does anyone know? Because I would imagine... The band knew. The band knew.

And it's romanticized. It's like Kevin Costner and Whitney. It's like in my head it's romanticized. Okay. I see. But it didn't actually happen that way. If you put us together on paper, don't have very much in common.

But he looked after band. I've had to really think about how I got myself into a situation where I really did lose a lot of myself. Was it they say with rose-tinted glasses? Red flags just looked like flags. Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. Were you in love with him? What I thought was that it was a savior thing, I just felt safe until I realized I wasn't safe. Did you feel as if he ever truly loved you?

I would like to say yes. Actually, I don't know why I'd like to say yes at all because what he wanted to get, he got, I guess. Okay. I don't know, actually. I actually don't know. I don't think you treat someone you love that way. Okay.

So your wedding, what I find fascinating about this story is I feel as if you knew. The movie, you'd be like, no. No, no. Yeah, I mean, tell us about this because it feels as if you knew what was about to happen. So, we'd had the biggest row, myself and my ex, and he'd gone off because I asked him why he wouldn't sign the pre-up. So you presented a pre-up to him? I asked him to sign a pre-up. Wow, okay.

Yes, on the night of our wedding, I asked again. Okay. I just felt something, I felt something was wrong. And he didn't want a big wedding. My best mate wasn't even at my wedding. They weren't allowed to come. Otherwise, he wouldn't go through with it. And it was just trying to just claw, hold on to those last moments.

And what was the reason that he gave to not allow your best friend to come to your wedding? It's turning into a circus. It's too many people. Too many people. I didn't want this. Okay. Now, how do you think that what was it about what was happening that allowed you to go through? I had a six-month-old baby. I had my mother, but she didn't want me to have children out of wedlock. He's Irish Catholic. I don't think his family were that happy that he'd had kids out of wedlock either.

So let's bring in good old Catholicism, because that'll fix it. Yeah, yeah. So it's 10 years of... On off, on off. On off. He's missing for five. Well, he had like his own court deal to deal with. He was on the run.

So he was on the run. He was on the run. But don't worry, I can fix him. I can fix this. So he was on the run. Yeah. You find this out that he's on the run. Yeah.

And that's part of the reason why he's gone missing. The reason he was in this country is he'd skipped bail. And he'd... started working here and by the time all the details and just the intricacies of what that actually entailed looked like I was I was two feet in I was just too late I was I'll stand by my man and I did I when he um when his past caught up with him and he had to go to court my mum and dad went I mean that's dark day

my mum and dad having to listen to all the details of what he'd done and was horrible really really like it's my mum and dad we're talking like class A drug because it was awful awful okay

so you felt something was off did you ever have that conversation with him no I walked in on him with a famous person on my birthday on a balcony So, yeah, we had a conversation. Okay. Yes.

All right. I've made peace with that situation now, but for a long time it was very difficult to see their life. Not that I would wish that on a family. I don't know. I feel conflicted, but my life literally just broke apart very, very publicly. Yes. And their life, they've managed to continue building a family brand on it. And it just felt so difficult for a long time.

This is your exes. The person I caught my ex with. Okay, so not, we can't name names, obviously. That'll definitely get your lawyers in a right old pickle. Okay. So. You're not giving me very much left to write my own. My goodness.

My members, this is going to be like, I sang pure and simple a few times. The rest. I sang pure and simple. This is on this podcast. See, we don't. My manager is like going, it's ching, ching, it's over. No, no, because you have all the names, but this is, I mean, this is a movie.

Your life is a movie. I know. Your life is a movie. I know. And I actually, all over wanted it was a really simple life play by piano. I really did. I was like, hopefully one day I could be in an orchestra and that would be the best thing ever. And look at this.

Yeah. So just to recount this story, before you were married, you're dating, you're in this committed relationship. You love him. Yes. You walk into a house. No, I'm in my house. It's my party.

Your house. Yeah. On to the balcony. And he's having sex with... They weren't having sex, but they were like unzipping each other. It's not what you think. But I'm like, it is what I think. It is.

Yeah, it is. It's the first thing they both said. Okay. With a famous person. Yes. And what do you say? What do you do? Because this is the first time you caught him.

I kicked everybody out of the party, including. his mom and dad, they went back to Ireland, and his dad said he doesn't get it from me. And I was like, okay. I just remember that it's been quite a weird thing to say. And then, I'm assuming he apologizes to you. Yeah, he makes up. Said it was the drink. It was the drink.

Okay. Yeah. Okay. Okay. So these are all of these red flags that you're seeing over. It's a pretty big flag. It's a pretty big flag. I have to take some accountability.

Like, you know, first and foremost to my children. My children have asked enough questions. and it's never been a case of laying out my stall now. It's got to be as and when. But here's a funny thing. School mums, people who just want to gossip, will go to your children before anybody else. Really?

Yes. Do they? Yes. That's interesting. Yes. And they'll ask them questions about... Tell them facts. Facts.

Yeah. So your children come back and now they can read what they like and they ask their own questions. But, you know, they've been raised by me. Yes. And only me. Yes. So they...

So, God, Malian, so you went through all of this and you still went through with the wedding. Yeah. Okay. But it was the most... You say your wife's at a wedding tonight. I guarantee the wedding... Most weddings kind of like, you know, they go into one.

There's a format. But no one forgot this wedding because I literally cried the entire reception. Just cried. Because it wasn't really a reception. We kind of had to haggle our way through with the restaurant. Could we have some burgers, put the tables together?

It was just, there was no planning because I wasn't allowed to plan a wedding. All right. So you're crying because you're sad? I just was gutted. I just didn't know why I was crying, but I just gutted. Okay. It's just not how it was supposed to be. So you mentioned that it was only a few months after the wedding.

Yes. That you were separated? I hired a tour manager and because I couldn't find him. and I took the babies with me took my friend with me to where I knew he was working and did a surprise and I knew there'd been someone in that room

and that was it for you weirdly even then I mean Christ the baby was so little hero was so little it was just a baby and that

was trial by papers it was horrific there is nothing you can throw at me now ever that I can't come through and I've lost babies I've been to court I've lost a house

I have that divorce and what people through and the mud that was slung and the kiss and tells and the societies like the groups that came forward Yes. They don't deserve to be named because they'd love it,

that there was a pretty fractious group that came forward that essentially bully women, taking them on, taking all of that on. Why was the divorce so contentious? I guess because, you know, it's that song, isn't it? The heart doesn't break even? and so I was just catching up all the time and every time new information came my way

I just couldn't believe it couldn't believe it like one pop star rang me up and she was like I think I've got your money it's in my safe I was like I think you have I don't understand he'd hidden

the money because he was way way down the line they say you leave how many times you know more about this than me you don't leave when you leave right you've gone already right you've gone already

up to a year oh well there you go well that makes a lot of sense because he'd actually got a house he'd got a he got he had like a secret house that he bought

already interesting you don't just buy a house like that and so when that came through I was just reeling from it but on the day that he decided it was over And he just pushed this little post-it note across the table with the figure he wanted.

And I just, that's when I'm just, how have you figured this out? Right. So while this is happening, is he seeing his kids? Is he stepping up as a father at all? All I can say to you is I've raised my children single-handedly, financially, as a sole parent. for 12 years. For 12 years. Yeah.

One other question, this is a controversial question. But there's more. This is my last question on this, but how would you answer this? How does a woman who is incredibly strong, assertive, independent, enter a relationship and stay in a relationship with a man like this? It's a really, really good question. relationships like that, they don't happen overnight. Right.

This is one thing I know is that there are multiple pieces to the equation. There's a blueprint that we're given. We see how our parents interact or how our first caregivers interact. We begin to take that as part of this script that we're building for ourselves. Attachment plays a big role in this. From everything that you've told me, I'm not going to place this on you, but it sounds like you could have had more of an anxious attachment than a secure or another type of attachment.

When we have anxious attachments or certain attachments, we then begin to chase people who are emotionally unavailable. That's what we look for in a partner. That actually is what we feel safe with is someone who's emotionally unavailable. That's another. Another is that when you find people who have extraordinary skill like you,

you have extraordinary skill. You are an accomplished pianist. You are a phenomenal singer, right? You think about how you've built that. How have you done that? You've done that through hard work. Through always identifying a problem and being able to do what, fix it. Yes.

So when someone in what enters your life, that seems to be hard work, what do you do? You take that on, you say, you know what? This is a good challenge. I'm going to fix this person, right? There's what society says Society says is you know what you should be happy You're getting older now You have a partner right

You should be happy with this partner So you have society What society's placing on you I'm sure you have peers saying oh this could be good right It could be a great relationship Every relationship goes through struggles Everything goes through this

At the other No but I'm angry with myself that I let that go on for so long I wouldn't let a friend do that And then my friends got angry because then they felt responsible. So everyone got upset and what? But ultimately what your friend, the only thing that your friends can do is to be there to hold space for you and make you aware that they will always be there for you, but ultimately it becomes your choice.

Now they can arm you with information. And then on top of that with arguments, you know, we had the Gottman's here as guests, foremost experts in this category. they say 69% of arguments will never be resolved. They'll never be resolved. So instead you have to figure out how do you manage that. It's important to do that out in the open. You know, I tell parents and caregivers all the time, one of the best things you can do for your kids is to argue in front of them.

Then show them how to repair. And show them how to repair. Absolutely. Yeah, you're right. Yeah, we try to do that. I mean, that's something that needs to be learned. I can definitely do with getting better at that because I'm very good at move on.

Yes. Get on with this. Yeah, it's all right. I should learn to sit and being uncomfortable. I don't know. I can't figure out if I was really strong because I stayed and that was the strength, that's all I had.

Or if I wasn't strong enough and I've had to get strong and this is it now and what I'm doing retrospectively is ensuring no one else goes through it. Yes. So that's how you reconcile it. Maybe. Maybe that's how I, that's my,

what forgiveness looks like to myself. Forgiveness to yourself. There you go. So you're giving yourself grace. Maybe. Okay. I'm Asian. We don't do any of this.

The repetized chat. It's just, it's. We bury it. We file it under do not open. Yes. And you see the importance of opening it. Right. The only way to heal from it is to address it.

Right. So you got through the divorce. by doing what? Raw dogging it. I literally like one day at a time choosing when I could slide down walls and radiators and then putting a smile on my face when the kids were back around.

Well, can we talk about one man that I believe has not tried to bring you down? But he's tried to bring you up. Okay. He's tried to support you. He's uplifted you, right? So let's talk about Simon. Okay.

At what point do you meet Simon? How many years after your divorce? Four and a half years later. Okay. And my girlfriend rang me up and she said, Oh, I've got this. Just hear me out, hear me out. I know you don't want to meet anybody.

I know you've sworn off men forever. But... Had you sworn off men forever? Yes. Yes. I was like, I am not going to be handing out houses. Yeah. So you had sworn off men?

Yeah. You have no interest, but a friend calls you up and says... This guy, I'm going to set you up with this guy. It turns out, I wasn't really... I don't know. Either she didn't explain it very well or I wasn't listening. She said, oh, he's really nice. He's a family guy.

He's got these kids. She's giving all the details. And then later down the line, this is important because it turns out she'd never met him. So it was such a blind date. What had happened is my girlfriend was having a... chat with her girlfriend and she's like, I've got this friend. And she's like, I've got this friend. Let's put them together.

And it was just as random as that. It was so blind. Wow, but you trusted in the process, the friendship group. Well, I was actually having a really good time in my life, really good time. And just enjoy, actually, just suddenly realizing that actually, you know, dare I say, one goes far as to say thank you, but I had a new lease of life. And I was enjoying where I was. But my girlfriend, she'd, she trusted her instincts and I trusted nothing.

And it was really weird because the builder had said in this new house, what kind of door handles do you want in the kitchen? And I just burst into tears because it had been like question after question after question. Mental load, going through everything so publicly, trying to keep the girls buoyant and myself solvent. and I just ran out of answers. And my girlfriend, she'd run out of money with her IVF. And Richard struck up this conversation where she said, I'll do your house so you don't have to think of any more answers than you do my IVF.

And I'm like, okay, done. So I didn't make any more decisions in the house. She did the colours, the walls and the door handles. And I got her IVF. She got her baby. I got my home. It was amazing. And it was things like that.

Good trade off. It was brilliant. She still holds me to like babysitting now. But I realized I just couldn't make decisions. I'd run out. I had fatigue. I had just like scroll fatigue. And so my friend, my other friend said, look, I've got this guy and I'm not sure.

All right. This is going to sound like an obscure question. But how long was your first date? It's about five hours, but that could have been the painkillers. See, I'm telling you, Molly. This is a theory I have running. So how long? did you think it was going to be?

We emptied out the bar. So it was five hours, but how long did you think it was going to be when you got there? A burger. I thought I had my burger. That would be nice. Less than an hour, right? Yeah, I guess, yeah. So the length of time over how long you thought the date was going to be, that I think is a strong

indication of how successful these relationships go or how strong these relationships become. So my first date with my wife, it was supposed to be like, Two hours maybe. It was like a movie. Like it ended up being... A movie on your first date? Yeah, well, we knew each other. Okay.

Yeah, yeah. So we were friends. We didn't sit next to each other and say nothing for two hours. Yeah, well, so we were already, it was Hellraiser. Oh. But we, so this is a long story, but... So weird. We were already good friends.

She was dating my friend. Yeah, so I kind of slid on in there. Oh. Yeah. But it was only supposed to be like, movie and it turned into a movie and then dinner and then dinner and going to the beach and then a long walk on the beach and basically turned into like you know almost overnight where we were where's the friend where's the friend was i said it i set him up i sent him somewhere it's okay i'm terrible

i'm diabolical but lost her sure you're ruining my theory i just i've got to get it out where's the guy yeah i sent him away i sent him away literally i said it in my car too. It was crazy. But long story short, this date that you had, it was five hours. You closed down the place you were in. So at the end of that evening, did you feel as if you were with someone that had the potential of being a partner? I didn't actually look at it. I didn't really look at it too deeply, actually. It was just... He's literally the opposite of everything I think is my type. Not that I know what my type is. I mean, it's like, it's quite a variation on a scale, I suppose. It's quite, there's a lot of breath, but he's just, yeah, I thought maybe that's got to be a good thing,

that someone else had made a decision for me. Okay, okay. So at what point in that relationship did you feel as if, oh my goodness, this could be my partner? I guess it was actually his kindness because he, when you get to know him, he, I suppose, in the conventional sense of like alpha, he's a sailor, he's very sporty, but that's not something that he really puts out there like that. So I think he actually seems really quite soft, really, really kind.

That's what I really felt was very, very different. Okay, okay. Now, he had, was it one child, two children? Two children. Two children. Okay, so was that part of your conversation? Very much so. I said, are you, Jennifer, a Ryu Ben Affleck?

Because that was pretty out there at the time. And he said, unfortunately, I'm Jennifer. And I was like, that's good, because I couldn't be with a guy who'd left his family like that. that was it wow wow at what point do you realize

okay we can actually or we should be partners and that means that our families must also blend together

um it's not a metaphor but he showed me his lightsaber collection and he's a Star Wars fan and I'm like okay you're a geek

and then he has had all his photos up where he was staying at the time, all his pictures of his kids' drawings. And one of them fell down when I walked in, and I picked it up. It's just little things. It's the little things that I wasn't familiar with.

And, you know, just taking care of things, putting them back onto the wall, giving them that value. Yes. And it's things like that I just really, really liked. And he came to the house. We've been seeing each other for quite some time. and Ava had her suspicions because she's so switched on

she came down the stairs and she just said to him what do you prefer dolphins or sharks she's like she's obsessed with marine biology and he was like well dolphins of course and that was it it was just he was just that was it and he was in I'd say that was the moment

we actually had quite a moment quite recently because it's the same set of stairs she came down he was standing in the exact same place for her prom. It was like... Yes. Yeah. So now do your children see Simon as dad? I mean, the first time I heard them call him dad,

kind of jarred because it was just, it was so uneventful. It wasn't like fan fairs. there's a saying and it has been so misused and I think it's down to misogyny and its blood is thick in the water but it's not the full saying yeah this is true yeah

the blood of the covenants is thicker than the water of the womb but that's my life daily my friends have showed up more than many members of my family have and sim might not be their dad by blood. Not one person has mentioned it.

He's their dad. Because he's showed up. He runs a dad's race. He does the mundane things, the dad jobs. He does the homework. He does the conventional dad things. And that's incredible for the girls to have. And it's a funny one as well,

because I've also thought, like, you know, how does he discipline them? Can he discipline them? But then there's been times where one of them is literally hanging off a climbing frame and he's had to step in and no one questioned it. So that's been a huge relief not to hear. You're not my dad. You can't tell me what to do with it.

I've had friends' experience. Exactly. Exactly. So how does it feel in this kind of stage in life to have your family? Well, it's a different shape of my family now because we also have my son and getting him. was no mean feat. So we, along the way to get, we call him Snoopy. His name's Apollo, but all the children collectively made a list of names that they thought

the baby would be, and one of them was Snoop Dog. And I actually said, don't be so ridiculous. We can't call the baby Snoop Dog. And it turns out that's the name that has stuck. Oh, my goodness. Snoopy. Snoopy, after Snoop Dog. One of the kids just said, we had a whole list. I just said everyone add to the list.

Whenever you think of a name, and it's quite a motley list when you read it. I mean, I can imagine it. It went left to field. I mean, they were just so little, all of them. So all four kids just kept adding to this list. And, yeah, I was like, Snoop Dog is not going to happen. But Snoop Dog has happened.

And it just became a running joke, and now he's Snoopy. And, yeah. So look at this. So you have this family, right? Now, you just mentioned it wasn't an easy feat to get to Snoop. Snoop. get a little snoopy. Right.

Can we talk about that? Sure. It's something that I've talked about a lot because of my campaigning. But when you actually break down where it came from, I mean, every year it felt I was pregnant and every year I lost a baby. Every year. Pretty much. Yeah.

So it took us a good four years. You know, the campaigning, I see women who never got their rainbow baby. and I, it's such infinite bravenate. It's another level of bravery. Yes. They said never got their rainbow baby. He's my rainbow baby. That term, rainbow baby.

What is that term? That's a baby at the end of the rainbow. It's the one that binds you all back together. So I don't know if you're aware of something called microchimerism. No. So this is what just gave me so much peace because I struggle with the terminology around miscarriage. in women's health anyway.

And the rainbow, you know, it's like the pot of gold, the baby at the end of the rainbow. That's where the term comes from. But microchimerism is a system whereby your body and your baby, you recalibrate constantly. So your baby uses their cells to bolster your main arteries. Now, it sounds very scientific, but at the heart of it is actually something really beautiful. So your baby cells go to your brain, your kidneys, your liver. your heart. Wow, wow.

And yours, in turn, go to theirs. And I think the most unforgiving part of miscarriage is when you lose a child is nothing. You don't have photos, you don't have memories, you don't have, do you remember that joke they used to tell? Do you remember their laugh, their smile? You have nothing.

It's a void. And you have something worse. You have what ifs. Or I wonder ifs. Oh, they'd be starting school now. I wonder if they'd have your eyes. I wonder what kind of mother I'd be. It's just torture.

but microchimerism really did give me something and I know it's helped a lot of mothers that I've spoken to about it because when mothers subsequently died they did autopsies, they found those cells still in the mother's bodies. Incredible. So that idea that they leave you,

they never leave you, they never go, they're always with you, you just carry them literally in your heart. Yes, yeah, that's incredible. But the real magic is our little Snoopy, idle rainbow baby he carries all of us he has Ava's cells

here are ourselves mine sims and the four babies that went before him look at that so I'm like oh yes he's like the goal

you get an extra hug yeah I get every single one of us in him yes that's incredible it's just amazing to know that I still have them somewhere and he has them all yes

so that that kind of research is so important because it's just percatory when you lose child. You don't have anywhere to go, just wandering. Can we talk about the psychological impact on both the mother but also the father? Because I don't hear much about the impact on the father. I did a documentary and I included Sim because of that reason to hear. to hear what he had to say because he said

you were in so much grief I didn't feel that I could add to your sorrow which is a kind thing to do but also you end up doing this dance of avoidance around each other so I wouldn't want to raise it with him just in case he wasn't thinking about it but then I was always thinking about it

so he didn't want to raise it with me in case it triggered me And then we just, that's it, dancing around each other. We live in a country where women's health is so neglected, call it misogyny, call it just carelessness, call it whatever you like. But Viagra is on its sixth generation of being improved, whereby we can't even get progesterone still in many cases. So women have this sort of silent battle constantly.

And we don't have any data collected on it. So we don't officially know how many it happens to. We don't know why it happens, where it happens. So I make my girls fill everything in on an app because I could have done with that information and so could my sister and it turns out my auntie. So it is in the family. Is it related?

We don't know. But I'm not going to let my kids go through that. This is a great point because in the research I saw that it was roughly 15% of pregnancies will end in a miscarriage. But to your point, we don't know. Who's decided that? We don't know.

You know what? That's just a figure you read because in the States, you need to wait for two consecutive miscarriages before you get any kind of medical intervention. But here in the UK, you have to wait for three. So there's no logical or medical continuity of care, nor is there any reason as to why that is. Right.

Which, when they tested by miscarriages, which in... Some people don't like the scientific side behind it and they throw more of their faith behind it, I wanted to know what had happened. The tricomies that came back were all unrelated. So I could wait for 10 miscarriages going by that way of thinking and still not get anywhere. It's so cruel. So one should be enough to set those alarms going.

And that's what I'm working on. Yes. So your work that your advocacy, should I say, has resulted in you having an MBE. Yep. Which congratulations. Thank you. I took all the family down there. Oh, my gosh.

It was wild. It was wild. I would imagine, yeah, parents. It was wild. Yes, yes. But to have the little rainbow baby to have him standing there. I just saw him just in my periphery and his two other mums, his two sisters. And honestly, after everything we've been through, there is no good ending.

In order to make change, it doesn't happen in clinics. It happens in Westminster. So I had to get into Westminster. Suddenly I'm a campaigner and never thought I would be. on that path. But now I have more reason than ever because I can't, with all of the knowledge I have and all the experience and knowing what I know and knowing that I can make a big noise about it and have those really uncomfortable conversations with the people that want to shut

the door in my face and have done countless times. Yes. You're not going to beat a mother on this. Yes. Because I've got something far greater and more important to fight for. So your campaigning work. Yeah. How has that changed laws and legislation?

So bereavement law has just come forward, which means that you're not sick anymore at work if you have a miscarriage or lose a baby. It means that you now can take what everyone else is entitled to, which is bereavement leave. And you don't have to then have the uncomfortable conversation and explain, oh, I'm going to have to say I'm sick and I'm going to have to get a doctor's note, but I'm actually not sick. I'm grieving. And you don't have to then explain that you're trying to. for a child, which could then, in certain cases, thwart where you are in your work. You've got enough to worry about as it is.

Eventually, we'll get to the point where you get paid bereavement leave, but this is enough just to start to get a foot on the rung. Yes, absolutely. And to be able to say the word miscarriage in the palace of Windsor, knowing of those queens that we've learned about in history who lost their babies and the many men and women who've served in the country. castle and maybe the royals themselves, but in between, you know, within those four walls, to have the king address miscarriage, to have Westminster address miscarriage.

That's where change happens. They have to sign the honor off. And that's how you can use your name and your privilege and your power. It doesn't have to be to get the best table or the club entry. It can actually change laws. Look at that. Look at that. Look at your life, Miley.

Yeah, I mean, I didn't plan on campaign. paining. When I was lying in that bed after, I think the second miscarriage was worse than the first, and I didn't think that was possible. I didn't even think that was possible. But the first I thought was just awful one of those things that people dismiss.

And the second one was, then I thought, we have a problem. And by three and four, I was tail spinning. I didn't even know who I was. It just was hell-bent on trying to keep a baby but didn't know how to.

And also, you talk about men, you know, chefs, cyclists, they're more susceptible. We're now learning. So if you take a hot bath, if you're in front of a fire, if you're in saunas, if you're drinking alcohol, too much caffeine, if you drive a lorry, long-distance drivers, cyclists, I think I said, but yeah, we're learning now that the men's contribution is far greater.

Their blueprint actually builds the placenta. So when the placenta fails or those struggles there, actually it might be whatever's happened with the DNA, the contribution of the male as well. Okay. So as we learn that, then we now have to realize, hang on a minute, this is not just the woman's responsibility. If you want to have your healthy child, you have to take on as much of, I would say, burden, privilege, however you want to approach this.

But your health plays as big a role, if not in certain cases, more. If you're not looking after yourself and your wife is, you're creating a problem for her. But before, it was always the woman's problem. Yes. The woman's guilt. What did you do? What did you eat? It's one of those things.

It happened to your granny. It just happens. It's God's will. God needed another angel. All of these platitudes that you just don't want. I just want my baby. Yes. Yes.

Yes. You know, when you think about where we're going with the laws, one thing I saw is in the U.S., these laws don't exist in most states. And the UK now is leading most countries. in this particular in bereavement around miscarriage. So what I find fascinating, and I'm sure you probably did not look at this,

is that your work has now contributed to what has become a country that is leading the way around how we look at miscarriage. Think about how profound that is. Yeah, ancestors will be happy. Think about that, for a second. That's your work. That's your work. It's incredible. It's incredible.

When I started investigating this, I thought, okay, well, surely other countries do this. Surely this is done all over the world, but it's not. I think what's interesting is as soon as you start, you know, taking the carpet up, you're like, oh, okay, I thought it was just this floorboard that just needed a little bit of a, as soon as you start playing around the floorboards, all start unsettling, but that's a great place to be because fundamentally then we're going to have better foundations. But where we are now is I'm working with Tommies and the Miscarriage Association and this

is a thing, it's collaborative. I'm not here alone. I get to be the striker and I get to be the annoying one at Parliament that doesn't take no for an answer because I don't have, I don't want to be a politician. Yes. So, you know, whilst many of them are career politicians, it doesn't bother me who I upset. I just need the result. Stop these women's suffering and work and at a,

home and blaming themselves and living in this torturous life that they can't move on from their grief. They need answers and you're in a position to give them. Tommy's are working on something called a graded model of care which is being trials at a minute and if we can pass that, now we're talking. It means you won't have to wait for three consecutive miscarriages. It means you'll get 24-7 care so the EPUs, the early pregnancy units won't then become a postcode lottery. So you might be in Scotland miscarrying at 5 o'clock, but the EPU closed at 1. And you might not even be able to get any EPU help over the weekend. Why is this important?

Well, why are women miscarrying in A&E? You're sending them through triage. They're having to miscarry and be triaged by someone who has to decide is a non-beating heart of a baby more important than a bloody nose or a heart attack. I mean, we're playing literal God here, whereas progesterone, which many doctors, don't feel they have the speciality to prescribe, it turns out they are allowed to do that now. So we could save 8,500 babies just by passing that message along and giving that confidence to practitioners that they don't need to have the specialised expertise of miscarriage care

and fundamentally, data collection. I know where you bought your trainers. I know where you ate your dinner last week. I know all these facts about you and how your algorithm works. but I don't know if or how many babies you've lost and why. Right. How? Yeah.

I see that this campaign work is this is life's work for you. This is something that you're going to continue to do year after year. So I filmed the miscarriage doc and they were like, do you think you're going to continue with this campaigning now? And I was like, absolutely not. Having been in Westminster and just seeing how shoddy and ineffective and slow and just it's just it's almost like kicking the tin can down the road

I see so many politicians realize oh I'm going to have to do something here and I just thought I can't and here I am because I see that yes yes and I can't I just I should because every time I talk about miscarriage I have to rip the band-aid off again and I have to think of that scan

the image of my baby floating down into the dark will haunt me till the day I die. Like, so many women don't get to see their baby. I saw my baby. So many women don't get to hold their babies. But the women I speak to, that's their lasting memory. Dead babies. How are we okay with this?

How are we letting women 20,000 every month? I said this to the king, 20,000. And he said, is it that number? And I said, we don't know. We estimated it. Right. Because we have no data. But this is why your work must continue.

And this is why you must continue this, you know. Last question for you. Everyone gets this question. When you think about your incredible life, varied life. It's pretty varied. Nuanced life. Yeah. And all the conversations you've had,

which single conversation stands out as the most memorable Who was it with and what did you learn? Gosh, to choose one conversation feels like I'd be doing a disservice to the others. I'd say the one most recently is the one with the king for miscarriage. Because I think there's so many people who search for the glory and this one was bigger than me. This one was, I felt like I was standing on the shoulders of justice. I had a message to deliver and I had to deliver the voices that never got heard.

Like that's a very, very powerful message that needs to be heard and hasn't been heard once yet in front of a living monarch. And that's literally, that's like dominoes. It's kickstarted something. Yes. It's really big. And I said it to my daughters. You're bearing witness.

you're going to see that, you know, the maths, one of you, if this happens to you or to your friends, you'll know that your village, your mom, you've saw, you saw that you can make the difference. So that conversation might be, you know, the five minutes I had there, but you saw the build-up to what it took and why it happens and that it's in your power to do the same thing. The big conversations, they're actually the small ones that matter the most and they're the ones that you have with your children when your apps that you wiped out for the day and they suddenly come alive at night and they tell you whatever's been on their mind or whatever's worrying them suddenly like 11, 12 o'clock at night and you just suddenly realize you know what all those things

I could never necessarily go to my parents with the fact that they can say those things yes we all try to just progress each generation on that little bit more don't we and I could never I remember said some of the things that my kids say to me to my mom and dad. But what they say to me I feel really proud of. Yes, yes. And how safe they feel to come to you. Yeah, because I still think I'm the uncoolest person ever. But then they all bring their friends over when there's, I don't know, trouble at Mill.

They all come over and suddenly, my mom will help you. And I'm like, be cool. Hold it down. Marlene, you are beyond cool. You're beyond. Me, you think so, which makes you uncool too. No. Now we're uncool and in cool.

No, no, no, no, no, no. I have many. You know, I have at least three people indulge to tell me this. Yay! Go back to the nail bar. But truly, truly, truly, truly. You know, throughout this conversation, what I continually went back to in my mind

is that whole phrase of, to whom much is given, much is required, right? And I think that often what people do is they've been given just something incredible, but they don't deliver on it, right? They don't deliver on it. They're not accountable. They don't step up. They don't do it.

Every time you have been required is this step beyond who you are in life. Every time you've leveled up. In every experience that we've talked about, you've leveled up. And you know what's so beautiful about your story is that you could see how every step along the way you've gained a stronger voice. The mylene at 10, 11, 12, who didn't have a voice, in our late teens who didn't have a voice, in her early 20s who didn't even have a voice, right? You look at the mylene today is it's a mylene that has such a powerful voice. She is leading change throughout the world.

Hear me raw. It's profound. Trying. It's profound. Thank you. I got, so seven years ago, when I got here, I kept hearing this phrase that people would throw out national treasure. And I kept asking people like, what does that mean?

Who is a national treasure? And they point to different people. And I'd say, is that person really a national treasure? Like what? Maline, you are a national treasure. pleasure. You are. Very kind of you. You are a national.

Actually, Twiggy and Dame Jerome Collins. If I could ever join the upper out of the lawns. No. You are. Thank you. You are. And I think that's something that you should just sit with for a second and think about all that you've done, but more so all the change that you're creating, those trees, the shade, and all those kids are going to sit underneath it and say,

Thank you. Thank you. Yeah. Outstanding. Yeah, you're outstanding. So thank you. Thank you. Mylene class.

We needed to talk and we talked. I could literally talk to Mylene for three days straight without going to sleep, like just having conversation. I find her incredible. And when I said that she's a national treasure, I meant it. There's a part that will stay on my heart forever. And that's when Mylene was talking about miscarriages, the DNA and the genetics of the child who doesn't survive still breaks away and spreads throughout the body of the mother, kind of maps to her brain and to her heart and to other areas of her body. So that child is with the mother forever. It was mind-blowing to hear that.

that's a nugget that many mothers and fathers don't know and could provide a level of comfort that many need for someone who is known for her musical talents her voice to have found her voice as an adult later in life I think is interesting and it's something that should be inspiring to many people who feel as if they haven't yet found their voice. Having Snoopy is what allowed her to do all of this work. And now, Mylene is one of the leading voices, if not the leading voice, on not just miscarriage, but in particular the bereavement around miscarriage. And she has literally changed law in,

the UK, and I believe will indirectly change laws around the world.