We Need To Talk with Paul C. Brunson - Our Favourite Moments From We Need To Talk So Far!

Episode Date: December 25, 2025

Paul reflects on the unforgettable moments that shaped the show so far. From candid conversations with stars like Yungblud, Gabor Maté, and Holly Hagan, to the raw honesty of Kerry Katona, this episode offers a heartfelt look at the topics that matter most. Paul shares his favourite reflections, the wisdom that stayed with him, and the surprising insights that challenged his perspective on life, love and grief. It’s a celebration of connection, growth, and the power of vulnerability, all wrapped up in the spirit of the season. Even in the chaos of the holidays, there's always room for reflection, healing and a little laughter. We're Talking, Our Favourite Moments So Far! (00:00) Intro (01:28) Yungblud on Falling in Love With Someone Multiple Times (04:09) Gabor Teaches Paul About Childhood Trauma and Its Effects on Adulthood (09:19) Nadiya Reveals How She Felt Like an 'Alien' in the Bake Off Tent (13:16) Kerry Talks About Her Lowest Ebb in Atomic Kitten (18:04) Paul and Holly on How Grief Has Affected Them (22:57) Mel Robbins Explains Her History With ADHD and Memory Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Greetings and happy holidays. You know, every Christmas someone gives a big speech. The Queen, the King, or a celebrity who definitely didn't write their own script. So this year, I thought, why not me? Only kidding. But I do have mince pies, a mug of hot chocolate, and a few reflections. I've sat down opposite, over 75 people on We Need to Talk. We've had heartbreak, headlines and conversations so unfiltered,

they probably should have come with their own content warning. We've had 10-hour chats, Carrie Katona, that was you. We've also had surprises that I didn't see coming, and we've had a world record of F-bombs to edit over 250 Youngblood. I can't believe you have a potty mouth like that. But between all the laughter and chaos, there were moments that honestly changed me.

Moments where someone said something so honest, so human, that it stayed with me long after we stopped recording. And at this time of year, when everything slows down just a little, connection, reflection and community feel more important than ever. So I wanted to share a few of the moments that have stayed with me, the ones that made me laugh, made me think, or made me see the world just a little differently.

I wanted to start with Youngblood, who genuinely I loved sitting down with. When he said you have to fall in love with the same person multiple times, well, that stopped me in my tracks. I have been on such a journey. and kind of like arrived here at this place. At this place, yeah. At this kind of turning point, you know.

And we know 27, I mean, we have to talk about the 27-group as well. You know, this is something that looms over so many, yeah, incredibly talented musicians. At 27, we lost Hendricks, we lost Amy Winehouse. Yeah, man. You mentioned Kirk Cobain. Yeah, 100%. You know, we lost all in that 27. Were you aware of that entering your 27th year?

Yeah, and I think with it, like when you're getting such a staple of youth, like Youngbud was. Yes. Nogbid is, young but whatever. You either die, which was kind of probably maybe on the cards with the way I was drinking and eating and doing whatever the, and indulging. It's definitely like a possibility. You know, if you ask me managers and me mates, it was wild. you either become a pastiche of yourself where you do the same thing forever

and you become a staple of the 90s or the 2000s or the 2010s or whatever or you reinvent and you become reborn and you change and I think that's what we're meant to do as humans you know what I mean like I think like that's why when you fall in love with someone you've got to fall in love with them 15 times in the life because they're going to change.

Yeah. Well, you know, I've been in the love space forever. I've never heard that. That's a great... You know what I mean? Because the love of your life... It's got to be the love of your life ten times because that person's going to change.

You can't hold on to... You can't hold on to the person that you met on the first day you met them when you're 80. You know what I mean? You can look back on it and be like, oh my God, I remember when I fell in love with you. But that person's going to probably become completely different. Because you've gone on 70...

years of adventures together. Absolutely. That's the reason why, you know, with love, it's so important to have that connection of values. Because your interests will change, but the values kind of leave you anchored. And that's cool. And that's literally it.

It's like everything I know about love. You know what I mean? Up next is the man, the myth, the legend, Gabor Mate. I probably reference him more than anyone in my conversations. And for good reason. For me, he really highlighted, not just trauma, but stress,

and the disproportionate impact that stress has on the body, that was a major epiphany for me. With regard to attachment style, because I've noticed that awareness is key, and I believe that I have an anxious attachment style. And I think it's because my parents adored me and continued to adore me.

They worked their butts off. Right. My mother was an immigrant. Yeah. You know, my father was the first in his family to go to college. Yeah. And they worked incredibly hard. Yeah. But as a result, weren't always in the house.

Was there a grandparent around or anybody? My grant, so they would bring in sitters. Oh, yeah. And I felt, and when I look back, I realize that potentially anxious, I have an anxious attachment style as a result of this. Right. But my question is, what are the health consequences of having an anxious or avoidant attachment style? So first of all, we're wired for fear. We're wired for it. It's essential. Again, if the saber-toothed tiger walked into the room, we should have fear, you know because that'll help us survive we also wired it seems for what's called panic and um that's an

attachment need so if an infant is left alone what should they feel they should feel panic which will make them do what which will make them cry it for hell cry yeah which should do what they should bring their pants running yes so this is all survival stuff um In Aboriginal cultures, kids are never left alone. There's a book you may wish to read. It's called The Continuum Concept. The Continuum Concept. Yeah.

It's by an American lot of Gene Lidloff who traveled to the Venezuelan Amazon, six weeks away from civilization, lived with some Stone Age people. And they're just parents totally differently. Kids are don't, never left alone. When the parents go to work, the kids, of course, are attached to them. Attached to them. When the parents engage in social activity, the kids are there, they all sleep together. There's no separation.

There's no anxiety either because that panic never gets triggered. But in your case, if at a small age, you find yourself with semi-strangers some of the time. And your parents are not around. that panic is wired in. And that's what creates the anxious attachment style. So that's a perfectly normal response that you have. And that's not the only issue either. The other issue is,

do you remember feeling that anxiety is a child? Yes. Who would you communicate it to? You know, I think I kept it to myself. That's the whole point. Now, you have a child you said? Yes, two. How old?

Ten and thirteen. Okay. Now, if they felt anxiety, who would you want them to communicate it to? Me or their mother. Right. If you found out through some third party that your child felt anxious

and they didn't talk to you or their mother, how would you interpret that? Oh, gosh, I'd be incredibly sad. What would happen between them and you for them not to come to you? Oh, I would have to have created distance. You would have created the message to them that you're not available.

Yes. Okay? That's the message you got. So it's not just that you were anxious, is that you were left alone with the anxiety, and that has an impact. No. Harder plays out in adulthood, you might become a people-pleaser and never say no. Because you don't want to be rejected, you want to be liked and you want to be accepted

all the time. And that not saying no, as we said earlier, can lead to all kinds of stress in your life. And that stress can create all kinds of physical health problems. It can also manifest as frank anxiety. It can manifest as depression. Or if it was very painful for you to be that alone, the pain might be too much. And it might arise in the form of addictions because addictions are all about trying to soothe pain. So if you have unresolved emotional pain, you might behave in a whole number of ways

that are there and unhealthy for you. I also wanted to highlight someone whose voice truly left a mark on me, Nadia Hussein. Her confidence in speaking truth to power, I could feel the weight of that moment. And the whole conversation was fantastic. And here's a taste. And I have to ask, going into it, though, you're not sure what you're fearful of. Yeah. But you're still in fear. Your husband's propping you up, giving you that motivation.

Do you begin to think at all, okay, I'm going on. I'm a second generation, Bangladeshi, a woman of color, like, I'm Muslim. Do you begin to think about any of those aspects of your identity? I didn't till I walked into the tent. Didn't even think about it until I actually walked into the tent. And then I walked in and I looked around and I was like, oh, great. Because I know that feeling.

I know what it's like to be the only me in a room full of people that all feel familiar to each other, but I felt like the alien. I walked and I was like, oh. And even production, you know, the team behind the scenes, there was nobody like me.

So I was like, I felt very much like a, I stuck out like a sore thumb. And I felt different. But there was Tamalo's on there, and he's from a part of Bangladesh. But again, I just didn't feel like, I just felt like, I just felt very alien. How do you describe that? How does feeling alien, how does that feel to feel alien? You know, the voices in your head, you know, the noise in your head just gets really loud.

That's what it feels like to me. So all the things that I always questioned about myself they just get really loud and that just overtakes everything because then you're like am I wearing the right clothes am I am I am I am I am I am I

are they looking at me do I look weird do I pronounce my tease better because I'm amongst loads of English people like am I speaking okay like am I eloquent enough so it's things like that And through time, I realized that I've just made myself in the last 10 years. I feel like I've just made...

I do. I often look back at myself and think I'm just a caricature of myself. Yeah. Do you? Yeah. For sure. My whole life, I've constantly shrunk myself to make everybody else comfortable. So even when I was in that tent, I would speak, but I would try so hard not to sound like I was from Luton.

I was like, no, no, no, no, no. sound as not bilingual as possible. Pronounce your tease. Speak slowly. Say every word properly. I'm thinking that while trying to bake, while being judged. So it just gets louder. That's what alien feels like.

But you win. Yeah. I was not expecting that. So then how does that change your perception of you and your identity and your self-war? Well, you know what? I want to say to you that I stepped away from there feeling like my self-worth was at its best and I felt amazing. But what happened to me so quickly after winning Bake-off was that I fell into a career that I never expected to have and didn't want.

That winning Bake-off did not prepare me for the cess bit that is. that it is, that it is to be in the public eye. Now, we couldn't skip Carrie Katona. That conversation took so long to record, it felt like a mini marathon, but it was absolutely worth it. Two and a half million of you watched our two-part special. Carrie reminds me of a cat with nine lives.

She's not supposed to be here yet. She's a live, healthy, and in this loving relationship. And I'm genuinely happy for her. So if you could think back to one moment, which I know it'll be hard because you said there are many moments, but one moment where you truly felt like this was, this is, it doesn't get any lower than this. This was the floor. I think for me was when the open lead pictures came out and I was pregnant with Molly. All these family are Irish Catholics and I was like, they're just all going to hate me.

I wanted to be famous to perform and I've got time on stage. I just didn't expect them to dig so deep into my life and my past as they didn't think, this is, this is madness. Yes. This is like, I didn't sign up for this. Yes. So with those photos coming out, how did that impact you and those around you? Somebody posted a handwritten, no, a letter from my mom's straw, wishing me to die and my baby to die.

and it was like I was getting bottles thrown up my head because of the Brian it was just it was just it's fight off light and because my mum always made it about her I didn't really have time to make it about me okay so that kind of got me through it does that make sense okay okay okay do you know what I mean it does it does it does so you weren't necessarily processing any of this for yourself no it just I just just cracked on yeah I just cracked on I think that's why I you know, when I got older, I just broke. It's like having a computer open and all these different tabs opened on it and it's like, boom! Yes. You know, you dare to do your job. You're so scared in case you get fired.

Yes. Fans are a rating, yeah. You're dating a boy band. It's in the papers. You've got your tits out. And it just gets a point that it's like, this is, I didn't sign up for this. And when you're in a girl band,

or any band, it's not glamorous at all. You work your friends. fucking ass off. That's the difference with those celebrities to these celebrities now. We grafted to get to where we got to. You don't just go and do a TikTok now or go on a reality show. I mean, not that there's anything

wrong with that, you know what I mean, but we really grafted, like we had to do like all the shitty nightclubs and we had to all the school performances and busking the street, like that climb for me and then I think the first single, the second single for me, was

amazing. After that, when I side dating Brian, just before Brian, and the focus came on me and my past, I was like, this is not what I expected. And the reporters are like constantly knocking on your family's door. That was on people was always selling, oh, we've sold a story. I didn't speak to her for a couple of years. Really? Can we talk about the press, right, and how they hounded you?

I never, will never forget Jamelia when she was on talking about her phones being tapped. And from what I understand now is that, many phones were tapped, especially during this period. The press was incredibly intrusive. So what was your relationship like with the press during that time? I didn't really know because everyone dealt with it. Like in the record company, you just go and do what you do and smash its magazine and all the magazines that you used to do, like photo shoots, that's what you used to do.

But then it got to a point where especially when I left Atomic Kim and I got with Brian, that that's when I got Max Clifford because he was he was the main dude Max Clipper was the main dude I was like his adoptive daughter he actually gave me away to one of my weddings and I named my son after him

he banned the newspapers basically he'd be like you're not writing that here's a story everyone went to Matt's Clifford but Max took a real shining to me so I hired Max well I went to hire him before I went in the jungle

because I think the Westlife boys had him a retainer. And I went, I don't want to go in the jungle and not see me dad at first. I see my dad. So I went, Brian took me to Max Clifford and he didn't charge me. And obviously, I won the show. And he never put me on a retainer or anything. But if he got me something, he'd get a percentage of it.

But he became like my stepdad. The press was after the jungle. That was when, that was a different level that Paul. USAA knows dynamic duos can save the day, like superheroes and sidekicks or auto and Home insurance. With USAA, you can bundle your auto and home and save up to 10%. Tap the banner to learn more and get a quote at usaa.com slash bundle. Restrictions apply. We all have that dream trip. We've been wishing we could go on. But too often life or usually price gets in the way. That's why price line is here to help you turn your dream trip into reality.

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because it was also about death and why we need to normalize it and why we shouldn't push it to the side. Holly recently lost her sister, her first experience with grief, and her perspective was both brave and surprising. It reminded me that even when people are gone, their presence stays with us. When I talk to people who have not lost someone, there almost seems to be this ignorance. There is. On the appreciation of life. And not until you lose someone close, do you just realize how precious life is?

and the decisions that you then make subsequently become different. And it's so different to losing like a grandparent because, you know, I hate to compare grief, but all types of grief are different for different people. Yes. And I think, you know, my nana's got stage four lung cancer. She is my nana. You know, one day she is going to pass.

And the grief that I'll have for her is like, oh, I'm so sad for the memories and I miss her so much. But the grief that I have for my sister, is guilt that she didn't get to live the life. It is sadness at the way that she died and we weren't there. It's all these different things of like, and it just hits you every now and again, like, oh my God, my sister's dead. And that's the first time I've ever experienced loss.

Every single day now, I'm just so grateful because life is not promised. And sometimes I don't know if I'm being strong or if I'm pretending to be strong. It's that same feeling that I had in the beginning of Jordy Shaw. I'm like, am I actually a strong person? Am I just pretending? Like, am I masking or am I not? Like, I struggle with it a little bit sometimes. But actually, I do think I'm strong.

I do think I'm a strong person. And I do think if we can get through this, we can get through absolutely anything, because touch wood, I won't go through anything this traumatic for a while. Hopefully the universe will give me a few. few years of like respite from it but it's just been horrific and now it's just watching my parents and I think that's the hardest part journaling yes journaling has proven itself to be one of the most therapeutic strategies if you will to helping to heal from traumatic experiences like the loss of a loved one

and that will also help in you not forgetting 100% right you will be able to actually chronicle all of these memories, all these moments. And what I find to be really interesting about you is that you should not doubt for one second that you are not strong. You should never, ever, ever, ever doubt that. Because of the way that you've showed up in this moment, I think this is exactly what life does.

Yeah. Is life, I think, doesn't deliver us things unless we can bear the things. Yeah. That's my opinion. You would not have been able to bear this five years ago. No. Six, seven, ten years ago.

No. You wouldn't have been able to, you were able to show up in such a loving way to your parents, to your extended family, but also to your sister. Yeah. And you should be proud of that. You should give yourself grace. You should also know that healing is a continuum. it doesn't just, you don't just wake up three months from now and you're healed. I know, I wish I could.

It doesn't happen often here on this pod. I talk about my best friend who passed away. In 2017, I'm still navigating it today. Reflecting on everything that you now have learned in life. How do you believe the new Holly as mom is going to show up? What is the new mom? How different will new mom be? I think for me it's just about being a lot more relaxed and actually taking in the moments

because it's so easy to just get lost in like the pressure of it all and the stress of it all and it is hard work raising kids like it's not easy but it's just finding those small moments to like cherish and hold on to and knowing that life isn't promised and that I can't just be like oh when you get to this age because you know something might happen God forbid but I think Now that I know that life is so precious, it's just about making the most of every minute. And whether that's us just sat on the sofa watching telly all day and cuddling, or whether that's us out and about doing things or flying on holiday, it doesn't really matter what it is as long as we're having that connection.

Now for Mel Robbins, need I say more? What she shared about your memory going offline pushed me to dig deeper into memory fragmentation. I've never heard of it framed that way before. and it really stuck with me, and I think it will stick with you. I squandered the opportunity at Dartmouth. I really did. So at university, because I... Now, also keep in mind, by the way, I don't know I have anxiety.

Yes. I have no idea. I have this traumatic experience that is still forcing me to wake up every morning and feel dread, and I don't know why, which creates anxiety. I have no idea that I have pretty profound ADHD. that's undiagnosed, and I also don't know that I'm dyslexic. And so I am sitting on a gigantic casserole of things that when they go unaddressed, it just creates not only more anxiousness, but a lot more dysfunction and a lot more self-hatred.

Yes. And so I am caught in this soup while I'm relatively high functioning, because I'm. Because I'm at a great college. I am in a relationship. I am getting through school. But I personally do not ever really feel like I'm present. I don't feel like I'm giving it my all. I'm constantly beating myself up because I just can't seem, you know, those periods in life where you just, like, it's like you can't get into the rhythm of it.

drinking too much. I just, the whole thing, I hate the person that I was, even though I can have a lot of compassion for myself in college and law school. I've never been to a reunion because I don't want to go back and actually have to feel the way that I felt or pretend that those were really positive years in my life. It wasn't the school's fault. It was just a fact that I was a person. that needed help, but I didn't know what kind of help I needed.

So even if we had photos of you during that time or you went back to visit the school, those feelings would come back. Oh, of course. Like, I've been back to Dartmouth. I've been back to Boston College Law School. I barely remember being there. Barely. And again, also, because you and I grew up at a time where if you were going to take a photo,

you had to get a camera and then you had to take the film. film out and then you had to get it like, right, process, which costs money. Right. Then you go, you go. And I didn't want to take the job in the cafe and use that money for that when I need a beer money. So I, like, who had photos? Right. Right. That's true. And here's another thing. I want to normalize something. There's a lot of us that do, people walking around that don't have memories. Because if you're not present and if your nervous system isn't settled, the part of the brain that stores long-term memories is not online. And so if you're somebody like me where it frustrates a hell out of me that my best friend Jody, who I've known since

fourth grade, she'll have been like, remember that time? You came to Central Michigan University and you visited me for the weekend and we did blah. And I'm like, I came to visit you? She's like, what do you mean? You don't remember that. I'm like, I don't remember going there. And it's the weirdest experience to have full periods of your life where you can't locate a memory. And the reason why is if you are in a state where you're the watcher and you're on edge or your stomach's going or you're in your head like, what if this happens or what if that happens? Or did that person think this? Or, oh, God, what if I flunk it? You're not present to capture the memories. I'm sure they're in there somewhere. Right. But you're not. You know what's so fascinating about

this is I have this conversation with Jill all the time because I'll say, I don't remember. She'll say, where were you in that whole period of our life? And I'll say, I don't even remember that. And I know I was there. I know I was being present. Yes. But it's interesting. Maybe I was the watcher in that moment.

And it's just been taken off life. Yeah. And it's somewhere in there because you can, you know, I've had experiences with the MAPS protocol and psychedelic guided therapy where it is extraordinary. what you can go back and locate in the system and then put it in, you know, the storage system that allows you to recall it. I, one of the things that I think is unbelievable for our kids is that they have all of this record of all of the things that are happening.

Like to be able, if I could look back and see all these photos, oh, my gosh, I would probably recall being there. Yeah. And isn't it even incredible as a parent? Yes. We can go back and say, oh, this is whatever. happens year one, year two, it's beautiful, it's beautiful. So there you have it, just a taste of the conversations that made this year unforgettable for me. Please do go and watch these conversations

in full. Each one is packed with laughter, insight, and maybe even a few surprises. This was just a small slice of what we've shared together, and I can't wait to see what next year brings. From my little corner to wherever you are in the world, thank you truly for being part of We Need to Talk. talk.