We Need To Talk with Paul C. Brunson - Pop Star Caity Baser Breaks Silence on Assault: “I Was Just A Child"

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Starting point is 00:01:15 We never really had any money when I was growing up, but I was like, I want to leave. I want to go to like a big city. I want to be a star. And nobody really got it. Posted the video where I was singing. And it was like blowing up. I had a lot of nose, open mic nights where people booed me. So I was like, no way is anyone going to turn up and see me on stage.

Starting point is 00:01:31 Then I start hearing, K-E, K-E, K-K-E, K-K-E. for me. When I went out on stage and there was all those people there, I was like, literally two of these. Look at all these people that are here for me. I worked so hard. What has happened in your life that's allowed you to be more vulnerable with your music? You were eight years old when the assault happened. My granddad's an ex-law neighbor grabbed me and like pulled me in. When you're little, you like, you trust an adult to like do the right thing and like make you feel safe. I had to do like police interviews. I was just so young. I truly. believe that you are a very important voice for all generations.

Starting point is 00:02:10 Katie Bacer, we need to talk. Oh my God, I'm scared. All right. Before we begin, I want to say from the bottom of my heart, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you. Why? Because we can't believe how far we've come with this podcast. But in particular, we've come this far because of you. Your support means everything, whether it's a comment, whether it's a DM, whether I get

Starting point is 00:02:36 stopped in the street, which I do and I appreciate. I just want to say how much we appreciate. And if you have not yet subscribed, I want you to click the subscribe button or hit that bell icon. What it allows us to do is bringing more and more of these incredible conversations. And that being said, let's get into it.

Starting point is 00:03:02 Katie Baser, we need to talk. It just happened. It just started. She's like that. Wow. Just like that. Okay. So can we start in Southampton? No, let's leave,

Starting point is 00:03:18 right away. I hate it. Are you serious? Yeah. If you were to think about what it was like growing up, what was the community, how would you describe Southampton? It was quite nice. Like, I lived in a councillor state and like everyone was really friendly. I had a great like upbringing. My brothers are lovely.

Starting point is 00:03:38 Life was, life was good. Life was actually quite good. But I think the reason why I struggled so much is because I wanted to break the mold. Is that how you say it? Break the mold. Yes. Everyone was very happy with just sort of like buzzing about and doing the same thing. But I was like, I want to leave.

Starting point is 00:03:53 I want to go to like a big city. I want to be a star. And nobody really got it. And I think that's why where I really struggled. And I had a bit of like a shit time at school as well because I was quite a big character. And people didn't really get that. I was quite, I'm quite an energetic person. If you couldn't tell.

Starting point is 00:04:12 Just a little bit. Just a little bit. And that doesn't really bode well with like schools and exams and. and things. And I wanted to be a singer in school. And everyone was sort of like, yeah, good luck without me. Like, I'm going to college and I'm studying chemistry. What are you going to study, K.E.?

Starting point is 00:04:27 I was like music and music production and musical theater because I want to be a star. And nobody understood it. No one got it. Now they want the guest list, though, don't they? I'm sure. I'm sure. But it sounds like not only did they not understand it, but they didn't believe you could do it. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:04:43 They didn't believe I could do it. And honestly, like every lunch or break time, I would be in the, music rooms, playing the piano. Because I feel like I felt a lot of things when I was growing up. And I never really knew how to like explain how I was feeling. So I would like go to the music rooms and just sort of like play a chord and be like, oh, that's how I feel. Or like I used to love writing poems or writing stories. Like I've always been very creative in that sort of sense.

Starting point is 00:05:10 That's always been an outlet for me. When people were pissing me off, I'd go and write a disc track in the music room. This makes sense. Right? But now, you know, full-fledged adults, you can reflect back to how you were feeling. So when you were a little girl, 11, 12 years old, what were those feelings? Insecurity, feeling like shit all the time. Feeling so sad all the time.

Starting point is 00:05:33 Like, I remember feeling so sad for a lot of my, like, teenage years. I'm not really knowing, well, sort of knowing why, but not really knowing how to navigate that. And instead of navigating it, I would just sort of make music. write stories, say it's fine because I'm quite a big loud character and I would just sort of be like, ha ha! Like I'm fine but then it would get to points where I'm like, wait, much it quite sad.

Starting point is 00:05:55 Yes. So you'd almost cover it up with the humour. Yeah, with the humour, which is literally what I've like done my whole life. Like even with like music and stuff, I've gone through some like really sad things like relationship-wise and instead of writing like a really heartfelt ballad, I would just make

Starting point is 00:06:12 a song about how much I hate you and how I'm so hot and how I'll be fine. But deep down, I'm like, you know, it's like a coping mechanism. Yes. But why do you think you do that? Why do you think you use humor to cover up emotions?

Starting point is 00:06:30 Because maybe emotions weren't allowed growing up. Okay. Maybe. Were they not? No. Not really. Interesting. do tell.

Starting point is 00:06:50 Well, here's how I view this, is this is tapping into your emotion. You're so wise with it as well. You've got such a soft voice. It's freaking me out. But I think that's the beauty is to tap into the emotion. Okay. I think that growing up, emotions weren't really allowed. Like, I was given like a few days to sort of get over things.

Starting point is 00:07:21 Like things that were quite hard. And I think the reason why I'm so bad at processing my emotions because I wasn't given that like security emotionally. You know what, Katie, this is exact. Like you just... Have you done that? No, no, no. But what you just identified is exactly right.

Starting point is 00:07:49 Is that if you're not given the space, not given the words. Yeah, you'll just keep it within. You just keep it within. And if you're a little girl, there's a tissue by the work. Okay. You like it. Oh my God. Whoa.

Starting point is 00:08:01 But also, if you're not able to witness people show emotion, you probably think it's a bad thing. Yeah. And I really did, like, with my mom, like, my mom would, like, never process anything. Like, if there was ever a problem, it would be like, no, it's fine. I'm over it. Like, don't need to talk about it. Don't need to deal with it. But, like, me, I'm the kind of person that needs to, like, sit and, like, talk.

Starting point is 00:08:25 it through until it's fine. Otherwise, I will think you hate me and we, you're going to leave me basically. You go. So then as a little girl, you process this and say, I can't show emotion. No. And if I do, you're going to get angry at me. So I'm just going to not bother. Yes. Queen. Yes. And you know what's so challenging about that type of deflection too is that life is about connecting with people. Yeah. And it's great. I love connecting with people. Yes, but the moment that you deflect, so if there's a moment, like in that moment right there, you could have deflected, told a joke, we could have gone, kept moving. Yeah, it's fine. But instead, you stopped, you paused, you dug deep into the emotion, and now I feel even more connected to you.

Starting point is 00:09:13 Yay! You know? I love that. And so I think that that's even a tip that you could use going forward. Yeah. Is that in any moment when you feel triggered, when you feel something bubbling, you ask yourself, you just pause for a second. Yeah. And you ask yourself, and what I'm about to say, in what I'm about to say, is it going to connect me with the person or is it going to hide something?

Starting point is 00:09:40 Yeah. One thing I will say is I think I'm like really great at explaining myself now, like explaining how I feel because of the lack of that when I was a kid. when I have falling out now, like, with my friends or like with partners or with family, I will be so like, this is how I feel. This is what you did to upset me. This is how you might feel. Let's resolve it. Because I never had that like growing up.

Starting point is 00:10:03 It was always like, I'm right, you're wrong. Get over it now. Yes. And like, because I know how that feels to be like shut down, your feelings aren't real, get over it. I would never want anyone else to feel like that. So I'm so like in tune with my emotions and my communication with people. I can see that in your music

Starting point is 00:10:22 because I did a binge Yay! I did a straight What do you think? I went Do you know what I'm Like pleasantly shocked on? What?

Starting point is 00:10:33 You've got bars. I have bars! You have bars! I have bars! You do! I have bars. You do. I have bars.

Starting point is 00:10:41 I know. They're good. Like flow. Thank you. I'm telling you. I'm from New York. Like, you pass my test. You pass my MC test.

Starting point is 00:10:49 Thank you. you. Yeah. So, yeah, so I love it. Thank you. I love it. And the lyrics seem to be emotionally charged lyrics. Yeah. You know. Whether it's anger, whether it's sadness, it's always done with intent. Yes. Yes. So I love it. I love it. Thank you. So now if we're still in 11, 12 year old. Oh. Okay. Okay. So you just acknowledge something big, which I appreciate, that you deflect or you used to deflect. But You would talk that. I was. So can we talk about family?

Starting point is 00:11:23 Oh, yeah. Okay, let's start with the brothers. Oh, kings. Kings. Kings. Not everyone considers their brothers king. Kings, best friends, kings. Really?

Starting point is 00:11:31 No notes. They are literally perfection. These are older brothers. Older brothers and the baby. Okay. Very peaceful life. No one fucked with me. You know what I mean?

Starting point is 00:11:41 Got two big brothers. Because you got them. Yeah. The reason why I posted my first ever video was because of my brother and my dad. They were like, If you post a video and it doesn't go viral, I will give you 50 quid. And if it does go viral, you owe me 50 quid. And I was like, okay, deal, 50 quid.

Starting point is 00:11:57 It went viral. They never got their 50 quid. But it was because of them. Really? Yeah, yeah. And like they used to come to my, I used to do a lot of stuff in school, like singing stuff. And they'd be like, you're amazing. Give it a go, girl.

Starting point is 00:12:13 So I did. And they come to all of my shows. I can always, because my brother Charlie, he's like gigantic. He's like six foot six. or something. So whenever I'm in a crowd, I always look and it goes like this. I'm like, there he is. He's like, he's right there. He's right there. They're big guy out there. Yeah, and he's just like crying. And my other brother's crying. My dad's crying. They're just so proud of me. Like, you know, we used to sing in the kitchen together. And now I'm selling out

Starting point is 00:12:36 tours, prancing about on stage. And there's people that have taken time out of their weeks and days to come and see me. To come. Yeah. That is a crazy content, by the way. And end of it. I may have a surprise or two, you know, for you. Okay. So this is the first surprise. I want you to listen to this. Oh my God, I'm scared. Caitlin Rose, it's your big brother, Harry here, and I wanted to say how unbelievably proud I am of you.

Starting point is 00:12:59 Watching your journey has been an absolute privilege. From singing together as kids to watching you steal the show at every single school performance, to now headlining festivals, touring, and selling out the Hammersmith Apollo. You've been completely yourself the whole way through, funny, fearless, and absolutely unapologetic. and that's a really, really rare and powerful thing.

Starting point is 00:13:21 I love you so, so, so, so much and I couldn't be prouder to call you my sister. Love you. Love you. Love you, bye. Oh my God. That was beautiful. Wow. That was beautiful.

Starting point is 00:13:36 What a guy. That was beautiful. That was lovely. That was lovely. That was lovely. That was so kind. It was so kind. And thought out.

Starting point is 00:13:45 And he sounds genuinely proud of you. Yeah. Wow. Yeah, it's good. That's so nice. I think it's a blessing to have family. The creation of the grandfather, can I say, I find that intriguing. Your granddad.

Starting point is 00:14:05 Yeah. What, who he was and who he is or like how it came about. How he came about. So I didn't have any grandparents. Also, like, my granddad is like instant waterworks, by the way, because I love him so much, just letting you know. I didn't have any grandparents well I had a grandma but she was kind of scary and my best friend had a granddad at school

Starting point is 00:14:26 and I must have been like four and in the playground I run up to him and I was like hello I don't have a granddad will you be my granddad and he said yeah sure and it turns out he lived like two minute drive from where my mum lived I would see him like every single day my mom worked like three jobs he would come and pick me up from school and like make me little sandwiches and he'd take me to the garden centre,

Starting point is 00:14:49 taught me how to ride a bike, taught me how to fish, taught me how to, like, play golf, roll a cigarette. Obviously, at a right age. He was, like, the best. Icon. That is absolutely incredible.

Starting point is 00:15:03 I mean, what made him, in essence, because you are his, so his grandchild's friend. Yeah. So he has grandchildren up stone. Yeah. I'm sure he's busy, he's off doing things.

Starting point is 00:15:18 This four-year-old walks up to him. He was like, oy, you. And he literally went, yeah. It literally was that. Like, we had a connection, like, straight away. I felt safe with him. Best mate. And your mother and father approved?

Starting point is 00:15:34 Yeah. He became like a sort of dad vibe to my mom because she lost her dad when she was younger. So he was like, just everything to everyone, basically. And even like after he became my adopted granddad, like all the kids in the estate knew him. Like they'd go over to his house and he'd have like this big massive Wendy house and a pond with a lot of frogs. And I was like a creepy little frog girl that would just sit there and like play with the frogs. A big swing.

Starting point is 00:16:04 I think that is such a heartwarming story. Yeah. And he was so like just incredible. Superman. This is good. This is good. Can we talk about mom? Yes.

Starting point is 00:16:18 what was she what was going on in her life when she had you all i know really is that she was going through a really difficult time financially and just in life like she doesn't get along with did not get along with her mom either which is crazy um i think she was just struggling through a lot and was sort of left on her own to to deal with things obviously she had my dad but i mean like with from her family you know which is hard and like whenever i think about it with me and my mom like I love her so much I love her so much and I think the only thing that keeps me holding on to her and like wanting to be cool with her is all the stuff that she's gone through and all the stuff she protected me from and my brother's from because she was that

Starting point is 00:17:06 strong assertive woman of like this is my like heard get away like I'm protecting and she did yeah like on paper she was great emotionally not so much girl I hear you. If you could go back, yes, as a little girl, and tell your mom what you most needed from her. Fucking hell. What do I most need from her? What would that have been?

Starting point is 00:17:35 A floor of acceptance and an open, an open floor all the time, open communication about everything. I didn't want to feel like you are the mom and I'm the kid. We are a family, you know? I feel like there was a big hierarchy there. Like, you listen to me. I'm your mom. I know what's right. And for like most of your like childhood, that is true.

Starting point is 00:17:57 But when you get older, like when you go to school and stuff and you start going through things and you have all these things going on with your body. Like I would just love to have an open floor all the time to just say whatever I want without being shamed or like, you know, shat on, basically. What is a memory that you have of being shamed? where you wish it was an open floor. Okay. The birds and the bees. Right. So when I was 17,

Starting point is 00:18:30 I said to my mom, oh, I think I want to get the implant now, like contraception, you know? And she was like, why? Are you a slag? You're a slut? You're sleeping around. You're like, what are the boys going to say about you?

Starting point is 00:18:41 And I literally remember being in the car, being like, oh my God. Like sex is a thing you should talk about with your kids. I had to have it with my dad, the birds and the bees conversation. And my dad was like, so this is what happens, la la la la. And I was laughing the whole way through it. And he was like, right, so who was it then?

Starting point is 00:18:55 Because you already knew I'd already done it. Do I mean? Right. My mom would just boys, relationships, anything. It was like forbidden, taboo. What's your relationship like today with your mother? Oh, we don't talk. I've not, like, she's been blocked for like two years.

Starting point is 00:19:14 I saw her for the first time at my brother's wedding. Like, when was his wedding? like a couple months ago was the first time I saw her Does she talk with your brothers? Sort of, not my My oldest brother she talks to a little bit

Starting point is 00:19:33 But like me and my other brother No, and my dad like, no, we don't talk Okay Yeah And this is so sad But it's like been the most peaceful Two years of my life Without her

Starting point is 00:19:44 Involved Interfering with my brain What is your hope for the future with your mother. Ooh, for her to just sort of like snap out of it and realize that if everyone in the family is telling you something, it's probably right. And you need to like really look inward

Starting point is 00:20:06 and do fucking what I'm doing. I'm 23. Like really look inside your brain and your heart and wonder, why am I so pissed off? Why can't I deal with things? Why am I pushing everybody away? Why am I alone? Ask herself those questions.

Starting point is 00:20:20 The thing that all, always gets me, yeah, is it's her first time living too. And she's allowed to make mistakes. Of course she is. Everyone makes mistakes. Right? That's profound. It's a TikTok thing, so I can't think credit. But just before I go, thank you. I'm sick to. Yeah, that was brilliant. Thank you. Well, I read songs. That was brilliant. Yeah, it's her first time living too. She's allowed to make mistakes. And I'm cool with that. But it's how you then deal with it after, how old you deal with the aftermath? Like all the things, I wouldn't just block her for no reason. Do you I mean. I wouldn't just not talk to her for no reason. Like it gets to a point where you're like,

Starting point is 00:20:52 you literally make me so unhappy. And if it was anybody else, I would have gotten rid of you years ago. You're my mom. So it's like different. It's different. So kind of last on your mom, right, is have you expressed this, these feelings to her? I feel like I have, yeah, I have a lot. Like over the years, I've gone like, so you have. I've tried. Katie, I think the most effective method for you, a letter. Writing it down. Yeah. I've done this before.

Starting point is 00:21:23 Have you? I did it to one of my best friends that really, really hurt me. My feelings, I wrote it all down in a thing and read it out there. Yeah, this is a kid. Or just write it. Send it. Send it. Allow your mother to sit with it.

Starting point is 00:21:36 Yeah, but I don't, I don't think she will. I genuinely feel like she never will. And maybe she won't. But if you have tried to express your opinions and you go into the, those scenarios where she just shuts you down, then that is the most effective way. Yeah. And maybe she doesn't read it for another two months. That's fine.

Starting point is 00:21:54 And it's fine. Maybe that's a great idea. But also I feel like it's just so far gone now, two years. And when I saw her, like, for the first time at the wedding, it was just so, like, weird. So weird. She was like, I love you. And I love you. She was like, do you, though?

Starting point is 00:22:10 Really? I was like, oh, God. Like, I feel like I'm this big again. And I'm going, please, Mommy, love me. You know? Exactly. You've gone right back. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:22:18 Like, little girl. And so whenever I have an argument with someone, I go right back to that like little girl. Yes. I'm like, please love me. You're going to leave me. Oh my God.

Starting point is 00:22:25 I'll do anything. I'm sorry. Yeah. There you go. I do think in this case, the letter would be effective. Maybe I do it. I do. Hey girl.

Starting point is 00:22:32 Yeah. But if you do let me know. I will. Truly let me know. You can sign it off. Yes. Yes. You talked about not being able to concentrate in school.

Starting point is 00:22:42 And I know you were diagnosed with ADHD. at what year? Well, I wasn't really diagnosed. I don't think I was. Interesting. Okay. But like I definitely have it. 100%.

Starting point is 00:22:55 Like when I was a kid, I couldn't walk in straight lines. I'd be like this. I'd be like, come on, Kate, you walk in a straight line? No. But also I'm like blessed that I work in an industry where I can just like, like ADHD the fuck out. You know what I mean? I mean. Do whatever I want.

Starting point is 00:23:12 Absolutely. Let my brain think about what time is in America and what I'm having for dinner next Yes. Like look at some of these stats, right? So you have in the UK 2.6 million people have ADHD. Very good. I have been diagnosed. 2.6. 11.4% of children in the U.S. have ADHD. 7% of children in the UK. But what I find to be, I feel effective is knowing that you have ADHD. Yeah. Opposed to wondering if you do. If I do. And why is there a different?

Starting point is 00:23:46 Why is there a difference in me? See, I feel like I've always been really good at just being like, that's how it is for me. That's how it is. That's how it is for me. Like, I'm struggling with this because that's how it is for me, you know? I feel like I find security in that. That's just how it is for me. You know why I would suspect that if I already guessed, Katie?

Starting point is 00:24:04 Why? All right, this is a guess. But I would guess that because everything you've told me about your upbringing makes you more in the emotionally avoidant category. And if you are emotionally avoidant, you kind of look at the world as it's me against the world. And I'm self-reliant, right? And so typically this is what happens. So that would be my guess. That's a great guess.

Starting point is 00:24:31 I'd say correct. All right, well, thank you. Thank you. Thank you. All right. Can we talk about music? Yeah. Oh, my God.

Starting point is 00:24:39 Because I, so this is where, you know, this is where I start to feel old, Katie. Is I remember, you know, people being discovered on mixtapes. Yeah. I remember people being discovered going out at the talent show. Yeah. Right? But it seems as if your break was your brother and your dad, I guess both of your brothers and your dad, making this challenge. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:25:05 50 quits. I said, all right. Okay. Okay. So, so let's even back up, right? Okay. Before, so they knew you had something special. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:25:15 That's the only reason why they bet you. Yeah. So at what point did you know or did you begin to think that you were musically inclined and you had something special? That's a really great question. What point? I feel like, honestly, I feel like I've always known that I was different, which sounds so, like, cringy and, like, a bit stuck up.

Starting point is 00:25:39 Do you think so? Yeah, like, I always knew how I was different. Like, I always knew that I was made for something like this. I always knew it. And I knew it would happen one way or another. I just didn't know how or when. or why. I always know it. I think that's why I struggled so much at school because I was like, I'm better than this. Oh, I hate all of you. It's so scary, you know? Right, right. So in school,

Starting point is 00:25:57 you're thinking, I'm going to be... Like, why am I learning photosynthesis? I want to set out the, like, arenas. So you were already thinking you were going to be on stage? Yeah. At what age? One day old. I don't know. Like... I knew you're going to say... Literally, like, straight out, hello, you know? Like, I'm here. You knew it. I knew it. And I was always like a show pony, like, when I was a kid like bring my family into the lounge. I've made a dance. I've made a song. Everyone come listen to it. Okay. Put on a show.

Starting point is 00:26:27 Like, I loved it. All right. All right. So then did you, because you had that inner belief, did you start playing instruments? Yeah, I taught myself the piano, started writing songs, sang literally everywhere, every single day, no matter what. My neighbor's dead. Really? Who's the singer? Yeah. Did you do talent shows?

Starting point is 00:26:50 Because here's the funny part is I actually did have stage fright. So I didn't have stage fright. And then I went to school, got very insecure about myself, and then got stage fright. And then it was my drama teacher, Mr. O'Brien. Shout out to him. Okay. He gave me a solo in the school play. I was like, it was like the Buddy Holly story.

Starting point is 00:27:13 That was the play. And I was Buddy Holley's. Come on. And my brothers, because, you know, like, I say they always believed them. that's a lie. When I was in school, I would sing in a shower. They go, shut up. Oh my God. You're fucking wha. They came to watch this show where I was singing for the first time properly. And they were in the front row like, and then after the show, they were like, Katie, that was really all right. Really all right. And I thought, fucking all right. You think I'm all right. Because that was big. Yes. You're really all right. Yes. I thought, wow. I think that was the moment that I thought really and truly I can do this and I'm actually all right. Is that? Okay. So I. Okay. So I. I. I love interviewing musicians and artists.

Starting point is 00:27:55 And what I find to be, for me, fascinating is that there are these early moments where it took one person. Yeah, who I like idolized, Mr. O'Brien. Exactly. He was like the coolest man. Yes. It was him. It was also like Mr. Jones, my music teacher, who was like, you know, all these people. Because in music, people took music to sort of just like fluke it so they could just piss about for an hour.

Starting point is 00:28:17 Whereas I was like, I wanted to know about music. and he would be like, you've got it, basically. You have that, like, curiosity and that hunger for it. So that was first kind of public performance. Yeah. Did you have any others before you started posting videos? No. Like, all my performance experience, all my performing experience,

Starting point is 00:28:41 you know what I'm trying to say? Yes. Performancing experiences? Performances. Yes. All my performances. What the fuck was that? Are you joking?

Starting point is 00:28:49 Performance sing experiences. You did say that. But I went with you. I was like, maybe that's a... Mint sentence. Maybe. That could be, definitely. Um...

Starting point is 00:28:59 So, like... Performacing experiences. Also, I like was like... That was with chest as well. Performancing experiences. You own that. Never do anything half-assed, you know? Yeah.

Starting point is 00:29:08 Um, yeah, it was all sort of like in school plays and like with college and stuff, but it was never like... I'm Katie Boe there. Okay. Okay. Okay. So... When do you make your first video? In college, just before lockdown.

Starting point is 00:29:26 Okay. I made a, how did it go? I made a song. And it had like a really super high note in it, like a little like whistly thing. I've been practicing it for a week. I was like I got to record it because then everyone would think I'm really good. I posted on Instagram and I got like 100 likes. And back then that was like huge.

Starting point is 00:29:42 But I deleted it because I got scared of what people would think of me. And, you know, when you watch something too many times, you think, oh, I hate everything about that. I'm deleting it. Yes. Then lockdown hit. And, you know, lockdown gave me a lot of time to think. And I started thinking like, well, why am I not posting? I'm never going to see these people again.

Starting point is 00:30:01 These people that could potentially judge me. So why don't I just do it? And they remember that time where they were like, lockdown's over. Go outside and have fun. And then a week later, they were like kidding. Yes. Get back inside. Yes.

Starting point is 00:30:13 So it was during that, like, period. And I remember thinking like, I want to be a singer. I want to be a star. I want to do all of these things. things, but how am I going to do it? Like, we're in a lockdown. I live in Eastly, in Southampton. I have no money. I have no way in. Like, what am I going to do? And I made a song about exactly that. It was called average student. It was about having no money and like having these big dreams and feeling like I can do nothing about them. Posted the video. Okay. And then

Starting point is 00:30:43 was about to delete it. Post it on TikTok. On TikTok. Okay. It was about to delete it. And then I was like, no, no, no, no, no, just turn your phone off. I literally turn it off. I was like, I don't want to look at it. Whatever happens happens. And then my friend came pick me up. And because we're so cool, we went to hang out in the M&S car park. Oh, wow.

Starting point is 00:31:00 Because that's what the cool kids do. All right. And drive around really fast. And then I took my phone back on. And it was like blowing up, like notifications from TikTok. And I was like, what the hell? Went on the video, it had like half a million views. And I had like 11,000 followers.

Starting point is 00:31:15 Oh, wait. In how long? An hour. Wow. Maybe two hours. And then we plugged my phone into the orcs and played this like 30 second video of this song over for about two hours

Starting point is 00:31:26 and we were running around the car like all the windows opened I gotta be famous and the style my God I've done it I'm so cool and then I went home and then the next day I get a call a DM from this girl who was like

Starting point is 00:31:40 hi can you give me a call I was like sure I just had 18 just got a million views I'm the shit like, sup, it's yay, you know, here I am. And she called me and I went, what do you want? Who is this? What do you want?

Starting point is 00:31:57 And she was like, oh, hi, like I work for a management company. We've seen a video we'd love for you to come to London. I was like, ha ha, okay, who is this? Like, you're joking. And she said, no, no, no. We're a management company. Here's who we work with. Here's our website.

Starting point is 00:32:11 Here's our details. Come to London tomorrow. I said, okay. Tomorrow. Tomorrow. I said, okay. And then you know the song that's like, What a feeling.

Starting point is 00:32:19 I played that for about three hours, as loud as it would go. And in my house, old house, there was like a door here and a door here. And you could like run around them all. I did it for like three hours, just screaming, I'm going to be a star. Hi, babies, everyone loves me. My brother gets home. My brother's a barrister.

Starting point is 00:32:38 Loves the law. Loves the law. All that sort of stuff. And he was like, you're not going to London on your own. I'm coming with you. Right? In case, you know, I get kidnapped for whatever because that would not be cool. meet up with the management team

Starting point is 00:32:48 that's so nice they put me in a studio with these guys called Future Cut who did like Lily Allen Oli Marr's like all the the classics went in literally remember walking through

Starting point is 00:33:01 and seeing like you know they're like number one plaques and like their MTV awards and all this shit I was like this is crazy recorded the song that I posted on TikTok they loved me and we're like can she come back next week

Starting point is 00:33:13 we want to make like an EP with her and I said sure All right. So help me in this story to understand this. Yes. So you clearly have a lot of conviction in yourself. You had the dream. Yeah. You've been dreaming this since you were day one. Yeah. Okay. You get to London. Yeah. But this is not a record company. It's a management company. Right. So do you understand the difference though at that time? No. No. I have no idea about anything. All I see is really cool producers, really rich looking managers, really, really, nice offices, things that I've never seen before. And I'm going, this is the life I want. Thank you. Yes, please. I'm in. Sign me up. Sign me up. And were you there? Did you have your brother? My brother, yeah. So it was just you and your brother? Me, my brother and his girlfriend, who is like my, they've done together forever. So she's like family. Sorry. She's in the crew. Yeah. She's in the crew. We love her. So you then, I would imagine, eventually signed that

Starting point is 00:34:10 management company. Okay. Yes. So how does that then end up in a record deal? So you, graft. You graft for like, I didn't actually graphed that long to be fair. I was going to say, because you know what year is this? This was... 2020. 2021 and I got signed 23 or 22? Fuck. So I didn't actually... Well, hey. You got to graph. You got to go through it all and then get signed after two weeks. It's so hard. No, but like I did. I had a lot of nose and a lot of like, like, I did. I had a lot of, like, Like, I did a lot of open mic nights.

Starting point is 00:34:48 I did a lot of shows where people booed me. I did a lot of, a lot of things. I did a lot of sessions. I worked so hard. And it, I don't know. I performed at Reading and Leeds. Okay. That was my first ever, like, proper show, Reading and Leeds Festival.

Starting point is 00:35:04 The BBC introducing tent. This was like one of the best moments of my whole life. I can literally feel like I'm there right now. All right. All right. So, sorry. But this is before, though, you have a deal. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:35:13 Okay. So no one knows. The before got me the deal, though. Okay. Okay. All right. this is good, okay. Please.

Starting point is 00:35:18 So this is what got, well, I'm pretty sure this is what got me to the deal. But I had a song called Friendly Sex, which was about like sleeping with your friends and it getting really weird. Went viral. Everyone loved it. Then I played Reading and Leeds and I just thought nobody was going to be there. Like, I couldn't believe that like the people, the numbers on the screen on TikTok were actual real life people. So I was like, no way is anyone going to turn up. Anyway, I'm backstage.

Starting point is 00:35:45 and it's all going wrong. Like my band, their things aren't working, they can't cue the tracks. So all the tracks we rehearsed, gone, gone, gone. So I'm sat there backstage going, they don't panic, la la la la, la, everything's fine, everything's fine. I can't see anyone out there because I'm like backstage.

Starting point is 00:36:02 20 minutes goes by and they're like, you can't perform, like you're too late. And I was like, oh God, this is awful. Then I start hearing, K-E, K-E, K-E, very loud, right? I'm like, is that for me? And my man is like, yes, like, get on the stage now or they're going to like cut you like you can't go on she literally like pushed me

Starting point is 00:36:19 out onto the stage and there's a video of me i literally go there was like 3,000 people in front of me i'd never i'm getting goosebumps right now because i'm like there i can see it and i just come on and i go and everyone's like what anyway all the songs we rehearsed didn't sing we just sang random ones that they had from like ages ago so it was all sort of like chaotic but i was completely at peace it was all going wrong behind the scenes that no one would know because I was having the best time ever. How would you describe your feeling in that moment? Unbelievable.

Starting point is 00:36:52 Like a god. Literally, I felt so amazing. And that like everything in my life had led to that moment right there. All the tears and the ag was for that moment right there. And even afterwards, like, they all stayed behind. And I went out to meet them all and I got up on the bars. And I was like jumping and everyone was like, K.E. K.K.E.

Starting point is 00:37:10 And I was like, this is what I've been waiting for. All this for me. All this for me. All right. So now, how did that then, you think, translate into or end up getting you a record deal? Because all the label people were there. And they thought, oh, she is legit. Okay. And I think, you know, I'd met with a couple of them prior to that. And then that was the one that just sealed the deal. Because they saw the transition from numbers and data to real life people.

Starting point is 00:37:40 I see it. Because if you can get views, that's great. Cool for you. But if you can pull a crowd of 3,000 and the bevis introducing tent, that's tiny. Yeah. And that's real. What do you think was it about you or how you use social media or who you built community to actually put the people in that place? Because to your point, there's so many people who are uberly popular on socials, right?

Starting point is 00:38:09 Yeah. But no one would ever go show up to see them. Yeah. I don't know I think it's just because I'm real I don't know like I post things in real time

Starting point is 00:38:21 about real experiences and I'm honest like I don't sugar-cut anything I'm always like this is how like the song friendly sex is like so blunt and honest and it's like what happened to like the day

Starting point is 00:38:34 the time what I was wearing what they were wearing like everything I feel like being so specific with your experiences is I don't know it makes it relatable.

Starting point is 00:38:43 Yes. And just being like, instead of being like, my heart is like a puddle of, no, I'm like, I'm pissed off. That's it. That's what I was there. I'm pissed off because of this. And I feel like, because I'm gobby and I prance around and like do all this, I feel like it empowers people to do the same.

Starting point is 00:39:01 What the fans have said, the groz and the gays, what they've all said to me is like, you are like the big sister and we listen to you. And if I'm going through something, I will listen to your songs because it will make me feel empowered about that situation. Because I feel like with relationships, especially that's like what the majority of my songs are about. Instead of being like, you broke my heart and I'm so sad and I'm literally going to never recover.

Starting point is 00:39:24 It's like, I will like hunt you down for the rest of your life and like ruin it. And girls and people love that because they're like, oh, obviously they're not going to hunt them down. Maybe they will. But like to feel, to take something that's negative and turn it around and make it into a that you can like scream to. I don't know. It makes you feel a bit better about a situation.

Starting point is 00:39:46 I'm with it. I'm with the case. Yay. Is there anything else you think? I don't know. I feel like you want me to say something. I have something in mind. Because I'm honest.

Starting point is 00:39:56 Because I'm vulnerable with people. Yeah. I think there's something else. Oh, because I'm gorgeous. Because I'm stylish. Of course. Super funny. Of course.

Starting point is 00:40:06 Because you are talented. Oh my God. You legitimately are. Oh, my God. This is something that I think misses a lot of people, right? Yeah. Is that you're actually good at what you do. Wow.

Starting point is 00:40:19 You know what I mean? But sometimes it's hard, like, to believe that. Like, the industry is savage. It's so hard and it's so intense all the time that I literally, that didn't even come to my brain that I'm talented. I swear on your life, I didn't think, because I'm talented. No, that did not come to me. How savage is it for all of us who are not in it?

Starting point is 00:40:40 You know, so you've now been a recording artist for what, three years? Okay. So you're early into your career. Yeah. But you've made a lot of noise. Yeah. Right. So how savage has it been?

Starting point is 00:40:53 I feel like when I was making the noise at the start, it was going swimmingly. I was booked. I was busy. I was going viral. Everything was great. Whereas I feel like if you take your foot off the pedal, even just a tiny bit, like it's all about the algorithm. and numbers and how viral you are now, basically. Like, when I first started doing music, I understood everything.

Starting point is 00:41:18 It made so much sense. I was like, this is what I have to do to make a hit song. This is what I have to do to reach people, whereas now it's completely changed. And I have no idea what to do anymore. And I actually, Paul, I actually had a bit of a moment recently where I was like, I'm shit. Like, no one wants to stream my music anymore.

Starting point is 00:41:39 Because I've made like this new music that is so personal to me and so great for me because it's healed a lot of things that have got on with me. But no one wants to listen to it. Like the streams are awful. Like no one wants to stream it. If you're not streaming, if you're not going viral, you're not doing well, basically. Okay. So the perception.

Starting point is 00:41:59 Perception. But how do you manage this? Because to a certain degree, the streams are important. Visibility is important. Right. So how do you reconcile that? You have people showing up for you. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:42:11 But yet, you know, you were concerned with the algorithms. Yeah. In essence. I feel like keeping the balance of performing live, that's like, as long as I perform live, I don't really think about anything else, genuinely. Whereas when I'm not doing anything, all I look at is the stream, the numbers, the comments, the people. And when nobody's doing that, you really, well, I really think that, well, no one's there anymore.

Starting point is 00:42:35 They've forgotten about me because I've, like, stopped posting. I've stopped going viral. It's very scary. This is my dream and I want to do it. But then you go out on stage and you see real life people with brains and hands and legs that have come to see you. Yes. That is way more important to me than a stream or a viral video. And they're connecting with this more vulnerable music that you're creating.

Starting point is 00:42:56 Yeah, for sure. In real time, in front of my face, you know. Yeah. So I know one of the pieces I wrote down was Story of Her. Ah, I'm. Yeah. Yeah. So when you think about.

Starting point is 00:43:08 story of her and more vulnerable music, what has happened in your life over these last three years that's allowed you to be more vulnerable with your music? I've fallen in love. Full stop. I fell in love with a man who is so safe and so secure. How did you meet him? Yes.

Starting point is 00:43:32 And what was your opinion of him when you first met him? Wow. This is like my favorite type of conversation. I'm always waiting for someone to bring it up so I can just talk about it. Here we go. I first met him on a music video shoot. Okay. And my first opinion of him was, wow, gorgeous, terrifying also because he was so, like, is so gorgeous.

Starting point is 00:44:00 And I went up to him and I said, I like your top. And he said, thank you. I like your dress. And I was like, thanks. But he had a girlfriend at the time. and I had a sort of situation. Oh my gosh. Can we back up?

Starting point is 00:44:12 Can we back up? Okay, hold on. Oh, wait, wait, wait, wait, don't fall off. Okay. So, all right, you had a situation ship. Yeah. He had a girlfriend. Yeah, yeah.

Starting point is 00:44:20 He's on set. Yeah, I put my shoes on her. I want to get comfortable. Yeah, get comfortable. Okay. So he is, is he working on set? So he was model. Okay, so he's there to kind of work.

Starting point is 00:44:31 He's there to work. He's there to work. And this is your video set. Yeah. Okay. All right. Okay. So, so, so, so.

Starting point is 00:44:39 There's a power imbalance too. I felt so sick walking over there. Like, hi. Yeah, because it's your whole setup. Yeah. So the first words that you two exchange is you say, I like your top. I like your top. But I wanted to say, I like your face and marry me now.

Starting point is 00:44:55 But I just said, I like your top. Okay. And then what's funny is like years later, he goes, this is the top I wore when I first met you around? Is it? I didn't fucking look at yourself. Like, I wasn't even looking at your top. So you lied to him. I lied.

Starting point is 00:45:06 Your first interaction was a lie. Hey, the top might have been nice. So, hey, it probably was. All right. And then that just continued throughout the day. Yeah, but it was just like best friends straight away, like banter, being rude to each other. Okay. Like, making each other laugh, like, properly laugh.

Starting point is 00:45:20 And he was like, I don't really find that many girls funny, but you're like, my mates, you're really funny. All right. He said this day one. Yeah. Okay. Because it's really funny. I was like, I know. Okay.

Starting point is 00:45:32 Now, what happened? So I was drunk one night in a pub. Here it goes. And he texted me. Here it goes. He texted me and he was like, right, let's cut the bullshit now. Like, I've fancied you since today I met you. I know you have two.

Starting point is 00:45:45 Let's just suck it up and like get on with this because I want to see you and I want this to be a thing. And I was like, yeah, to be honest, when I first saw you, like, I love what he said. And then I met up with him the next week after and have literally been with him every single day since, pretty much. Well. We live together. He's my best friend. I love him. Well done.

Starting point is 00:46:06 I like this. I like this. Yeah. So now. What are we thinking about for this? future. With him? Yes.

Starting point is 00:46:14 Marriage. For sure. For sure. You know what people think... Yeah, yeah. When you know, you know it. It sounds so silly. But like, I really never knew that man until I met him because I know.

Starting point is 00:46:23 There's not a doubt in my mind that he's not the one. Like, not at all. Okay. Like, I've read something the other day that was like, when you're in love with the right person, your immune system, it's like an actual reaction. It calms down. Yes. Right?

Starting point is 00:46:37 Yeah. Well, not immune, but you were... Nervous. Nervous system. Sorry. Why was that like a... Nervous system. Do I get a sticker?

Starting point is 00:46:46 I was like, yeah, because you don't want your immune system to calm down because that's fighting off disease. That's true. Yeah. Here I am. But yes, absolutely. Yeah, your nervous system. It does.

Starting point is 00:46:58 And I feel like, genuinely for my whole life, I feel like I've just been on this treadmill of like, fight or flight the whole time emotionally. And then I met my boyfriend and I just feel. feel so at peace. I feel so calm. My heart and my body and my soul is just like relaxed and fixated and safe for the first time. And I feel like that's why I can now look at other things now that make me feel unsafe and scared with like a calm of mind because I'm so calm. Do you know what I mean?

Starting point is 00:47:37 Like I'm no longer angry. I'm no longer angry at anything anymore. well hey I am but like I feel like I can be a lot more level-headed with things now and a lot more um what's what I'm like understanding and accepting of things because I don't have anger in my heart anymore

Starting point is 00:47:57 that's how I know you're truly in love I am I literally love him so much I know it I know it because ultimately a relationship will do one of two things to you. Yeah. Right. Either in moments of stress, it will exacerbate the stress, right?

Starting point is 00:48:16 Because you won't feel safe. And so therefore, you'll go home, you'll interact with them, and you'll be even more upset. Yeah. More nervous. Because you're like, my body just feels weird, yeah. Yes. So does that? Or what it does is a great relationship will protect you.

Starting point is 00:48:31 Yeah. It will act as a defender. Yeah. For stress. 100%. It'll be a refuge. And that's exactly what you described, is you have a refuge with your partner. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:48:40 That's beautiful. It is really beautiful. And like because it's the first time has ever happened, I think that's why for the first time I can just sit and really think about things and be like, gosh, and process for once in my life. Yes. Because I've not done that.

Starting point is 00:48:52 Yeah. Every single music talent that I've talked to who is a woman. Yeah. Has talked about how they've been pushed to be over-sexualized. Yeah. And they've been pushed to market their singleness. Yeah. As a part of a way to sell their music.

Starting point is 00:49:10 Yeah. So how do you now, with a boyfriend, move through this industry that I would imagine on average says you can move through faster if you didn't? Unlock the backlog of fuckery from exes and just keep writing about that. That was a mic drop. That was. Interview's done.

Starting point is 00:49:37 Bye. Thank you. I've got a lot of things that have gone on, you know. So, like, I don't think I'll ever run out of material. Also, like, maybe I could make a love song and people would really love it. Yes. Who knows? I feel like, and I have a really strong fan base of people that just love anything that I do,

Starting point is 00:49:58 like a core group of fans that are just like insane for me. Yes, yes. Do you know, do your fans have a fan name? Yeah, they're called Slayzers. Slazers. Because I'm Kitty Beza. I'm so Slay. Put it together.

Starting point is 00:50:15 Slazer. Slazer. You know what? I like it. So they're slasers. Slazers. Slazers. Plural.

Starting point is 00:50:20 There's many. What qualifies as a slaser? If you like my music and you're cool. So I like your music. You're a Slazer. So I'm a Slazer. Of course you are. Just like that.

Starting point is 00:50:31 Just like that. Welcome to the club. Just like that. Thank you. That's okay. Thank you. Look, we have a lot of reality TV stars on We Need a Talk. And I'm always talking to them after the recording about what's,

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Starting point is 00:53:48 limited edition perfume Miss collection only at Sephora. Career-wise? Yeah. You talked about obviously a lot of stage performances that are highlights for you. But are there any other just magical moments that are almost surreal.

Starting point is 00:54:06 When I played the summertime ball, Wembley Stadium. Wembley, yeah. Honestly. This past year. Either one before. Okay. I never get nervous, like I said. This whole day, I was like,

Starting point is 00:54:21 like I couldn't do anything. I even get my makeup done, I was just like, oh my God, oh my God, oh my God, oh my God, oh my God, oh my God. And also, I went out on the stage on a bike. Oh, wow. I cycled down that time. That's probably like this wide. Cicely. One-handed.

Starting point is 00:54:34 Let's have it. On my bike. Also, it was interesting because I normally support people. Like Tom Grennan, I've supported him in Van derby Park. This is a great example of like people coming to see an artist. And maybe not coming to see me, the support act. But the majority was there to see like Sabrina, you know, fares. Same.

Starting point is 00:54:56 But it was difficult because for the first, first two songs, everyone was just sort of like, looking at me. Oh, wow. I know. But then I was like, do you know what? I used to come to the summertime ball when I was a kid. And I saw me on two big screens, like massive screens, like walking down the runway and I started welling up.

Starting point is 00:55:17 And I was like, I can't believe I'm here. This is so cool. And then the second that I sort of started like letting go and enjoying myself, everyone was like, well, like, she's just having a good time. Because I believe that you can't look at somebody having a good time and not enjoy yourself. even if you hate me, you can't, you can't not enjoy yourself because I'm having fun. That's a pro tip right there.

Starting point is 00:55:34 Right? In life. For real? Yeah. Like if you're, if you don't like me, you think my music's shit, you think I'm dressing weird, whatever. But if I'm having an absolute blast and you're hating on me that that's really sad. Yes. You know?

Starting point is 00:55:46 I love that moment for you. And I love the lesson that you just pulled from that. Yeah. And I mean, I think that's why you resonate so much as, you know, a voice, especially of gender. Z, but do you feel any pressure with that moniker? Because I've seen, when I've looked at all these different articles about you, I've seen that this kind of comes up in a lot of the articles. Like, she's the voice of Gen Z.

Starting point is 00:56:14 How do you feel about that title? I love it. I love it. Okay. I love attention. I love, I love it. He's like, yeah, I'll take it. Like, that's great to me, you know, if people view me as that.

Starting point is 00:56:28 Yeah. That's so cool. Okay. Thank you. So then what does being the voice of Gen Z or one of the voices of Gen Z, what does that mean to you? Just being honest and keeping it real. I feel like now we live in an age where like you need to grow up really quickly and you need to have it all figured out and you need to have a 10-step skincare routine and you need to like be an adult and have it all figured out basically and you don't. You really, really don't. Like people will look at me and I think.

Starting point is 00:56:58 Oh, she's got it all figured. No, I don't. No, I don't. Like, I'm sure, well, I'm probably, you probably do have it all figured out. No. You give that energy. I mean, I'm trying to work through many things. See, this is what I mean. Like, I feel like just keeping it real and like, I don't know,

Starting point is 00:57:13 talking honestly about things and not sugar-coting anything. Like, it's hard being a young person now. Like, it's really hard. Like, when I was in school and stuff, it was difficult because that's when social media and stuff was first becoming a thing. But now, like, some of my friend's little sister, They're like, they look older than me. They like put all this pressure on themselves to be a certain way.

Starting point is 00:57:33 And I just think like slow down. Yes. So my boys are, it's funny, my oldest is Gen Z. He's 14. So he's just at the end of it. And then my youngest is Generation Alpha. So that's the younger generation under Gen Z. Generation Alpha.

Starting point is 00:57:51 Generation Alpha. Okay. Yeah. That's cool. Yeah. They're Alpha. And I can already see. slight differences between them

Starting point is 00:58:00 but within my oldest son, right, the Gen Z and his friends, like they are like all day. And what I noticed too, and they were the first ones that put me onto this is that they don't even look at the content first. They look at the comments first. Yeah. I find that to be. I know.

Starting point is 00:58:18 It blows my mind. It's like, so you're not going to watch the video first? No, you want to see everyone hate it on it? Like, I know. But what I've also noticed, and I think you represent this and I see this with, actually with both of my boys, is I feel as if there's an emotional availability that older generations didn't have. Yeah. You know?

Starting point is 00:58:41 And that's... Wasn't like we're a lot more accepting? Exactly. Oh my God, 100%. You could be anything you want now and no one bats an eyelid. Like, do whatever you want, as long as you're happy and you're not causing any harm, do your thing. So then, okay, so then back in the music. Yes.

Starting point is 00:58:53 When you think about in particular, even this latest EP, What tracks stand out to you the most? All of them. I hate this question. Literally all of them. They all have like a different purpose, a different meaning, like a different part of my brain that has like been listened to. Okay.

Starting point is 00:59:11 Yeah. Okay. All right. So let's go down the list here, as I am. Wow. I love that you go, you, every time I say a title, you sing it. I mean, you're very, very, musical. No one can deny that.

Starting point is 00:59:30 Honestly, whatever I do. Oh my gosh. So as I am, what does that song mean to you? That song is basically the description of what we were talking about, like the nervous system thing, finally feeling like I'm accepted as I am. Because I genuinely believe that like I mean, I've not had many relationships. Like, there's only like

Starting point is 00:59:58 two that were like significant to me. Well that I've only had to relate. But you know what I mean? And in those relationships, I muted myself. I like made myself in a way that made them like me more.

Starting point is 01:00:13 That made sense. I've never been wholeheartedly myself ever with in a relationship ever because I've always been like, oh, you're not going to like that. And you know, I just want you to like me. Like I would do things that they would do so that they would like me.

Starting point is 01:00:27 And I, I, thought of that that was how it was always going to be, like forever and ever and ever and ever. And then I met my friend and it's the first time that I've just like not changed anything. Like not one single thing. Anything I do is authentically me and he's never looked at me and gone, shut up like you're being annoying or like, that's weird. No, he just joins in. And this song is just like a sort of Round of applause to him and to me and to us for just like letting go and loving and not being scared. Everyone says falling in love is the scariest thing. No, it's not.

Starting point is 01:01:07 It's the easiest thing I've ever done in my life. You're joking. Yeah. Like I feel so at peace. I never worry about anything. It's amazing. Yeah. See, I agree.

Starting point is 01:01:17 It's one of those where I think there's a lot of these lines that are given to us. Yeah. That are scripts that are, you know, false and myths. Yeah. No, it does. Love is. not scary. No. It's toxicity is scary. That's scary. Yeah. There's a study, a Harvard study that I think you would love if you're not aware of it, because you might be aware of it. I am 23, so.

Starting point is 01:01:42 So because for those of you that are not aware of this, right? But what it does is it looks at when you have a strong emotional connection with someone, how your life changes. So if you have a high, strong emotional connection, which you do, you make more money, you are healthier. So to your point about the immune system, you're healthier, and then you're happier.

Starting point is 01:02:07 I'm like the happiest I've ever been in my whole entire life. And I actually mean it. I feel like I've always said, yeah, I'm fine, I'm happy, but I'm the happiest I've ever been in my whole entire life. Everything feels so secure, so stable. Obviously, the music is a bit of like a crazy up and down situation. But I mean, like, personally, I've never felt so level and happy.

Starting point is 01:02:27 Yeah. It's wonderful. It's a win. One more time. That's another mic drop. It is. Got loads of them. Just a heads up before we get into the next section.

Starting point is 01:02:37 It involves sexual assault and childhood sexual assault. So please watch with care. So what other tracks that are distinctly different or telling a new story than you have in the past? Ooh, I feel like the weight of you, that's a big one. Okay. Are you comfortable to go there? Yeah.

Starting point is 01:03:03 So you were in, whenever you want to throw a boundary, throw a boundary on this. You were eight years old when the assault happened? Mm-hmm. Okay. Crazy. Do I keep going? As much as you'd like to disclose. Yeah, well, what do I say? say what happened how it happened as much and i tell you this is one where you have to say only what

Starting point is 01:03:29 you are comfortable yeah i feel like i've actually gotten really comfortable with talking about it now okay so i was eight years old i was out with my granddad's and was going back to his house and it was my granddad's next door neighbor but did it to me who i knew and we spent a lot of time together and he was really, really lovely to me. And my granddad, like, sort of parked the car up and just, like, went inside because he was like, oh, I'm like, hey, are you all right? And that was normal. I was like, oh, yeah, yeah, I'm good.

Starting point is 01:04:01 How are you? And I started talking and doing whatever. And then, yeah, my grandmother was inside. And then he just sort of, like, grabbed me and, like, pulled me in. And it was, yeah, that happened. And then I came out and, like, obviously was like, that was wrong. Went to my granddad, like, burst into tears. and was like, take me home, take me home, take me home.

Starting point is 01:04:24 Went back to my mum's house and my brother opened the door and was like, what's happened? Like, because I was roaring. And then my granddad told him what happened. And then Charlie was like, what? You're joking? And then I remember being upstairs. My mom coming home from work because she was like screaming on the floor. Oh, it was so bad.

Starting point is 01:04:41 And then it also like sort of affected mine and my granddad's relationship as well because my mom obviously would have been like, well, how the fuck have you let that happen? But also, he wasn't to know. I wasn't to know. that's why I sort of skipped over, hello, you're right. Yeah. But it was really hard and like, I feel like that's where like all of my issues with myself.

Starting point is 01:05:06 And like with the relationships, I feel like that's where all stem from. Because like, when you're little, you like, you trust an adult to like do the right thing and like make you feel safe. And I guess my perception of that was sort of like fucked up at such a young age. And it made me feel really weird. about like men and relationships and maybe that's like the reason why like I let other things happen as well because I thought that that was just sort of like what went down so yeah it was

Starting point is 01:05:42 really hard and like I had to go like do like police interviews and stuff and you know I was just so young and like I feel like I really didn't give myself or like I wasn't allowed the space to sort of like deal with that even now like when I made the song like they play it to my brothers they're like who's this about and I'm like oh that thing that happened they're like fucking out like I forgot about that but I'm like that's such a massive part of like

Starting point is 01:06:07 who I am and like the way I do with things how did you at what point do you feel like you began to process what happened to you and begun to heal I was at my friend's house it was a party

Starting point is 01:06:25 we all got really drunk and we were talking about things and they were talking about their experiences with it and how it's like messed them up and like hearing them speak about it so openly

Starting point is 01:06:38 I was like wow that's exactly how I feel and it was like talking about how it's like affected their perception of men and relationships and how it like made them feel about themselves and I for the first time I felt like oh my God

Starting point is 01:06:53 that's exactly how I feel and I sort of started opening up about it. This was like two years ago. Wow. Wow. And I just started bawling, like viciously bawling my eyes out. And like my friends just like cradled me. And they were like, just tell me like what happened.

Starting point is 01:07:09 I told them everything that happened. And I've never really thought about it really until that moment then. It's always been in the back of my mind. But I've never really sat and thought that was fucked up ever. That conversation plus being in love with a lovely, peaceful, calm man, which is something that I've never really experienced before. those two put together was like really healing for me. Yeah, I can see it.

Starting point is 01:07:34 And it was the combination of the two. Yeah. Because also, like, I never really wanted to talk about it with my brothers or my dad because, like, I didn't want them to get upset. You know, like, my dad, like, when he hears the song, he cries every single time because he's like, I just hate that. I hate that you've gone through that. I hate that you feel like that. Obviously, when the same of my brothers, like, when I sang it at BST, they were both just, like, sobbing. Really?

Starting point is 01:07:53 Yeah. And I just think, like, I don't want to talk about it with them because I don't want them to. feel upset so I keep it inside so they were aware then but then it was not disgusting no any further ever never ever ever again because it was just like that's happened not from them they were kids but I mean like yeah my mum I guess was just sort of like that's happened now move on sort of thing but I feel like when you're that young and your brain still like molding. That was like a key part of

Starting point is 01:08:31 my makeup, you know? Oh my goodness, absolutely. And like I couldn't ignore it. Like I'd go to sleep at night and I literally think like, I'd think about it every single night pretty much and be like, what the fuck? That was so weird. And then it made me feel weird about like trusting people.

Starting point is 01:08:47 Like I became, I feel like that's probably why I became so insecure like in school. Maybe it wasn't the kids. I think it was probably that. So do you believe that I don't even actually put any words in your mouth is what was the specific reason why you decided to write about it now and talk about it now? Because I think it's the first time that I can look at it without any anger, which sounds really weird because obviously I should be angry and I am angry, but like I'm like I've accepted it now. Even Ray, Ray was the reason why I thought I

Starting point is 01:09:19 should write it as well when she wrote that song called Ice Cream Man about her, she was, she got sexually assaulted by a producer. And she did a performance where she stripped down into her underwear and sang it. And I literally was like, this is unbelievable. Like, this is revolutionary for me right now because that's so empowering. And I want to feel like that. And I want to make other people feel like that. You know?

Starting point is 01:09:48 Yeah. Like the song is like so sad. But there's a line that's like, I'm glad that you died. Because now I don't worry. Like, you're dead. You know? It's like still uplifting in a way that makes you feel good about something really bad, which has always been my way of making music, taking something really awful

Starting point is 01:10:07 and making you feel like slightly better about it, if I can. Thank you for sharing that. Thank you for listening. It's one of those where not only what you just described, but clearly the song is going to change someone's life. Because to your point is that you had this safe space between, your boyfriend and also your friends to feel like you could begin to discuss

Starting point is 01:10:33 become aware and that's how the healing journey begins but many people don't have that exactly so this is going to replicate that for them and people find comfort in music like when you don't know how to explain how you feel you put on that song that sort of makes you feel validated and if I can be that song for somebody that's incredible and when I sang it live for the first time

Starting point is 01:10:53 the other week like the emotions that I felt and like seeing everybody in the crowd, seeing girls, like, bawling because they're like, oh my God, this is how I feel. This is exactly what I went through. Like it's just makes you feel way less alone, and it makes you feel, yeah, better about a really fucking awful situation. Yes, yes. One more question on this topic, if I could, is,

Starting point is 01:11:17 what do you believe the responsibility is for society? And I don't want to make it so ambiguous. I'll say, you know, for us as adults, Yeah. Because the more and more that I learn about this topic is so, I'm just so frustrated because I feel as if the question becomes, well, what can I do? Yeah. Right. So that's why I love to have these discussions because I feel like this discussion alone is helping.

Starting point is 01:11:50 Yeah. But what more should we be doing? I feel like calling people out is a really. good one. Like some of my well not my friends because they're not my friends but like I see people act in a certain way and their mates don't say anything.

Starting point is 01:12:09 I think if you're just letting it happen you're part of the problem. Like if your mate says something really weird or makes a girl feel uncomfortable or makes anybody feel uncomfortable you say what you're doing mate like you're being so weird. I feel like that's a great step in the right direction. Okay. Done.

Starting point is 01:12:25 This is my checklist. Done. But I do that No, good. And like, but I feel like people are embarrassed to like tell their mates like you're being weird. But no. Like, it should be fucking common sense and the bare minimum to if a girl says, oh, God, no. You go, okay. No worries.

Starting point is 01:12:44 Bye. Like, I have never made anybody feel uncomfortable in that way ever. I listen to people. Like, if they're like, if, you know, something's going on, oh, no, no thanks. Cool. Done. Whereas flip it the other way, it's a lot different. Yes.

Starting point is 01:12:58 It's like, oh, you show on? Come on, please. Are you sure on? No. No. Okay. Got. Bye. That's helpful. I think that's helpful for many. So thank you again. Thank you. Thank you. Can we talk about another song? One more song. Okay. Drink me dry. This is like the sequel to The Weight of You.

Starting point is 01:13:16 Okay. There have been a few occasions where, you know, I've been seeing somebody, and that person has been my friend. and they have what's the right word here I basically said no and they've gone yes do you get what I'm saying

Starting point is 01:13:41 two sex yeah and like doing stuff and I remember like it's the whole song drank me dry is like it's so annoying because like I really liked you and I really loved you and you were so much fun

Starting point is 01:13:56 and all it took was one night for you to just fucking be so weird and like make me feel so uncomfortable and ruin everything. Like what was the point in that? It's so annoying. And I remember like,

Starting point is 01:14:12 I don't know. I never thought that there was anything wrong with what happened to me because there was, yeah, two separate occasions where it sort of happened and I didn't want it to. So in that though,

Starting point is 01:14:24 so you, did you distinctly not give consent? Okay, so there was the first time I literally said no no thanks and can I like talk about it like can I say the things I think this is very helpful okay okay because I feel like it's good

Starting point is 01:14:39 for young people to actually hear it because if your gut is telling you it's not right like I remember basically saying like I don't want to have sex with you if you don't have a condom because mommy wouldn't let me go on the implant

Starting point is 01:14:52 bull so like I didn't want to do that but he was like no it's sort of like happening anyway and I remember he was like on top of me trying to have sex with me and I was like pretty drunk at this time as well so I was sort of just like feeling really weird knew it wasn't right and I put my feet both my feet on his shoulders and it sort of like started happening and I literally went oh and pushed him as hard as I could off and he fell on the floor and he was like what fuck is like wrong with you like what are you doing and this was the worst part so his bed was like

Starting point is 01:15:28 here and there was a window here and then all of his mates turn up and they're like oh hey what are you doing what you're doing he goes get in the bathroom get in the bathroom and I remember sitting in his bathroom looking at myself and being like you are gross I looked to myself and I thought ugh but then at the same time I couldn't go home to my mum because I know she'd be like where have you been what have you been doing you shouldn't be there in the first place it wouldn't be like what's happened baby let me talk to you it would be like sort of

Starting point is 01:15:59 you bought this on yourself sort of thing so I was like I can't go home I'm pretty pissed I feel really awful I'm gonna go to bed although at that point

Starting point is 01:16:08 I actually wasn't pissed I was completely sober at that point because I was like shaking you know so you stayed there I stayed there

Starting point is 01:16:16 I got back into bed and I led there and I fell asleep and I woke up at about seven in the morning bolt up right I was like let me out let me out let me out

Starting point is 01:16:23 let me go I want to go and he's like oh why why you don't want to stay you know you'll stay but mind this guy was like one of my bestest friends but i knew i was like this is really fucking weird like i need to go and then a year later bear in mind like during this whole year i was still his mate i was still talking to him i was still on face time to him i was still like love you you're so much fun and then i was at the river near my house with my best friend

Starting point is 01:16:48 molly big up molly and we were talking about things and she was like whatever happened with you and like so and i was like i don't really know but Like, something happened this one time and, I don't know, it really just freaked me out. And I told her everything that happened, like all the details. And she sat there and was like, Katie, that's really not okay. And I said, what do you mean? He's my best friend. He wouldn't do that to me.

Starting point is 01:17:12 It's not what you think it is, but I just think I've taken it wrong. And she was like, no, that is literally assault. That is abuse. That is all of the things above. And that's the first time that I realized, like, what actually happened to me. And then I text him. like a week later, saying like, by the way, I just thought you should know that that night, his, I remember everything that happened.

Starting point is 01:17:35 I literally wrote it down, sent it to him, and he went, we're going to have to agree to disagree on this one. Like, I don't think that's how it happened. But whatever, basically. And I was like, okay. And I'm not spoken to him since. Awful. When you look at that, do you see that as sexual assault?

Starting point is 01:17:56 Mm-hmm. Yeah. Awful. Like, this is what I mean. Like, I have never, ever,

Starting point is 01:18:03 ever, made anybody feel uncomfortable sexually, ever. No, okay. No worries.

Starting point is 01:18:08 Should we watch your movie? No worries. Right. But that night, like, he was pretty drunk as well and like, he just didn't care.

Starting point is 01:18:18 He's like, no, I'm going to because I said so and you said we could. Not my thought. I don't have a condom. Right.

Starting point is 01:18:24 Okay. Right. Fucking hell. There's this sense of entitlement. Yeah, and also because we'd like had sex and stuff before, it's just like, this is what's going to happen, we're going to go home and have sex because that's what we always do.

Starting point is 01:18:35 Yes, yeah. But no, sometimes, no. Exactly. I think this is also part of this ongoing myth is that if you have had sex once, that it's consent forever. No. And absolutely not. Oh my God, even in relationships, like you can have sex whenever you want.

Starting point is 01:18:56 But if one day you're like, Nah, it's fine. Exactly. It's so fine. Exactly. In marriage as well, you know, there were some laws that were just recently changed around this because for a very long time, a man having sex with his wife without consent was not against the law. What? It was not.

Starting point is 01:19:22 It sounds so stupid. Yeah. And it is. stupid and it took a woman to sue her husband who she was separated from, right, not even in a day-to-day relationship in order for the laws to change where obviously now, you know, you can't literally, there are men raping their wives, right? But many don't understand this or realize. Because you don't, like in the moment you're like, well, you love me. Right. And I'm your best friend then you would never do that to me so it's obviously not that but no it is if you wrote that down

Starting point is 01:20:01 and describe what happened that is literally yeah awful yeah yeah but but that was such an important story to share because i think there are many people who would side with your thought in the moment like this is my friend yeah also like oh he didn't mean it like it's fine he didn't mean it he's a nice guy he's a nice guy yeah no yeah no no yeah i mean that was you know it's it's it's a nice guy he's a nice guy yeah no no no yeah i mean that was you know so hard to look at that and say, God, but it was sexual assault. It was rape. Yeah. You know, and so I, but I appreciate your advocacy and your reflection of this. And it is something that, this is a specific topic that I am going to figure out how I can become an advocate around. It's really difficult to get people convicted of this sort of thing.

Starting point is 01:20:58 Like it's really difficult. But like to even just talk about it, not many people do. Like even with their friends or like with like even with my mate Molly, I didn't tell her for a year because I thought it was normal. Yeah, look at that. My best friend since I was a kid. What happened? Oh yeah, maybe he, you know, what the fuck?

Starting point is 01:21:17 Right. Right. Right. And he surely didn't tell, you know, didn't tell anyone. No, 100%. Yeah. There are two more stats. One in four women.

Starting point is 01:21:28 have been raped or sexually assaulted since the age of 16, since the age of 16, and one of six children have been sexually abused. Yeah. It's sickening. It is absolutely sickening, and it's something that, you know, I'm personally going to continue to try to do more on,

Starting point is 01:21:50 but having these conversations are such a strong start. And I feel like if I am the voice of... a lot of people, young people, well then I will continue to talk about things that aren't often talked about. Yes. Like those difficult topics, you know, because it's really important

Starting point is 01:22:06 to have someone to look up to and go like, fuck, that happened to me. Yes. That was not right. Yes. And I'm not going to let it happen ever again. Yes. Okay.

Starting point is 01:22:15 Fair. Fair. All right. I have enjoyed this conversation thoroughly. And I have one last surprise for you. What is it? Okay. You have to close your eyes.

Starting point is 01:22:24 You're ready? I'm like, oh, what is it? I'm scared. Is it alive? Don't be scared. Don't be scared. Don't be scared. Yeah, hold out your hand. Hold out your hand.

Starting point is 01:22:31 Okay. I want you to take a look at this. And when you do, I want you to tell me what you have to say to this person. Okay. Okay. What you have to say to this person. Okay. You have to say who the person is and what you have to say to this person.

Starting point is 01:22:50 Ready? Okay. Look. Oh. So who is that? That's baby Katie. Yes. Baby Katie. How old are you there?

Starting point is 01:23:02 Like two, three? Yeah. I remember that one day so much. It was so comfortable. Had little like footsy things. It was amazing. Yes. But then I got tall. What I have to say to her? What is 23-year-old pop star Katie have to say to three-year-old Katie?

Starting point is 01:23:25 That she's, that she did it. And I don't know. is to fight the same person. Like she's always there. And I feel like because it's making this music. She's like really with me. And I love her and she's Slays. She's a Slazer.

Starting point is 01:24:01 That is the OG Slaser. That is the OG. That is the first. I mean, look at that. Are you joking? Look at her. I tell you what. I always think it's so profound to look at photos of ourselves.

Starting point is 01:24:16 Because you go right back to that moment. I know. And I literally am the same. Like I look the same. Like the same eyes, the same nose, the same little like upside down house shaped face. Yes. Like I love her. Yeah.

Starting point is 01:24:31 That little girl is going to go through some serious challenges. Yeah. She's going to go through some serious challenges. But knowing that she's enough is going to carry her through. You know, and I think that you can also look at that and say, going forward, you know, you're 23. I'm 23, by the way. You are a young lady. Yeah.

Starting point is 01:24:57 You are going to go through some enormous challenges as you walk through this life. But as long as you continue to remind yourself that you are enough, then you can combat it all, you know. So then, Katie, can I give you the final question? Yeah. That everybody gets? Yeah. And that is, you have had some incredible conversations throughout your life. Mm-hmm.

Starting point is 01:25:20 Okay. What is the most memorable conversation you've had? Who is it with? And what did you learn? This memorable conversation. Yes. This is hard. That's a lot of conversations.

Starting point is 01:25:33 And you're 23, so you. With the thumb now. By the way, I'm 23. By the way. That's the title of the episode, actually. 23. Is this what we call it? She's 23.

Starting point is 01:25:45 She's 23, by the way. Yeah. Kiss you forgot. Ah. I had one with my granddad once and it was the you can't expect everybody to love you in the way that you love them. Which is why I spoke about before. Yes. Because it's so true.

Starting point is 01:26:02 And it almost gives me like a little bit of like makes me feel a bit about myself when people do treat me wrong because I know that I would never do that to them. You know? I feel like the lesson from that conversation was like always be a good person and love. People are so afraid to show love and show affection and show emotion. Whereas I live with my heart on my sleeve, as you can tell, I cry, I wipe them away, we giggle. You know, I like, I'm so emotional and I'm so like unafraid to love. Even when I know it's going to get me hurt, I don't care because I'm being honest to myself. And if you don't love me in the same way, that's cool because I will always.

Starting point is 01:26:47 love others in the way that I would want to be loved. One more. Two of them, actually. You've had multiple mic drops. You've had at least four to five mic drops. That is crazy work. That might be a record mic drop. Well, thanks. Yeah. Katie, I will tell you, thank you. Hey, thank you. I remember through doing this research, reading a few times she's the voice of the Gen Z's, the Gen Z voice, the Gen Z. And I was like, hold on. I need to sit with it. I need to

Starting point is 01:27:22 assess this. I need to see what's going on. But you know what? I adore you. I truly believe that you are a voice, a very important voice. Not just Gen Z, but for all generations. You know, I think that what you are doing is you're

Starting point is 01:27:38 saying, I've gone through some stuff. Yeah. Right? But I'm still standing. and I'm willing to share this with you because it's going to help you to become better. Yeah. And to me, that's what a great teacher is. And I think through your music,

Starting point is 01:27:52 in particular, your new music is you're a teacher. You know, so continue to teach. And through that teaching, I think you're going to have more Brits and more Grammys. Make it five then. Fuck it. Let's do it. Five apiece. Yay.

Starting point is 01:28:07 Thank you so much. Thank you. That was super. That was so super. You know, I'm a Slazer now. Yeah. I'm a Slazer. I'm officially. There is not one person who's gotten more comfortable than Katie.

Starting point is 01:28:24 Like she was like she was like she's practically laid down on this stage. When she was talking about consent, I thought this is a great lesson for like my voice, you know, for the 14 year olds, the 13 year olds, the 11 year olds to fully understand what consent means. and that it is a human right. So we know 68% of people who are estranged from a relative feel shame around that. And this was a great conversation to investigate that topic. My heart goes out to Katie and her mother. Because I don't think that there is any question around her mother not having love for her. And Katie clearly, there's no question about Katie having love for her mother, but it's just how that love manifests itself.

Starting point is 01:29:17 How does it show up? What does it look like? What are the rules and boundaries around it? They're navigating that, but I'm hopeful that they will come to a place where there's an agreement on what that looks like in the future. I tell you what you, I have no tattoos. I find it hard to see myself getting a tattoo for anyone living. but if I did Katie would be on the possible list.

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We Need To Talk with Paul C. Brunson - Pop Star Caity Baser Breaks Silence on Assault: “I Was Just A Child"

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