We Need To Talk with Paul C. Brunson - Shirley Ballas on "Disastrous Relationships" And The Dark Side Of Strictly!

Episode Date: September 30, 2025

Strictly Come Dancing’s head judge Shirley Ballas joins us for an exclusive conversation about her extraordinary life on and off the dance floor. She also reflects on the loss of her brother David, and why she now campaigns to raise awareness around men’s mental health and suicide prevention. From her early years on a Merseyside council estate to global fame, Shirley shares the resilience, heartbreak, and lessons that shaped her. She opens up about her family heritage, the bullying she endured through school years and beyond, and the sacrifices she made to rise to the top of the dance world. She speaks candidly about her relationships, turbulent love affairs and lifelong struggles with body image. Shirley also takes us behind the scenes of Strictly Come Dancing - from a “disastrous” first audition to navigating the highs and lows of being on one of the biggest shows on television. Shirley shares: ◽ How discovering her family heritage reshaped her identity ◽ The bullying that left lasting scars - and how she found strength through dance ◽ Walking away from a marriage at the peak of her career - and the regrets that followed ◽ The pressures of body image in the dance world and her experiences with surgery ◽ The moment her Strictly audition went wrong - and how she turned it around ◽ The toll of online trolling and public criticism as head judge ◽ Why championing men’s mental health is so important to her ◽ What happiness means today  Shirley Ballas, We Need To Talk If you’re struggling, you don’t have to face it alone. We’ve included support charities below: Campaign Against Living Miserably (CALM): https://g2ul0.app.link/npaQKXUV4Wb Samaritans - call on 116 123 or visit https://g2ul0.app.link/xghDmmYV4Wb  Follow me here: https://www.instagram.com/needtotalk  https://www.tiktok.com/@weneedtotalkpod Follow Shirley: Instagram: https://g2ul0.app.link/EGAa8y0V4Wb TikTok: https://g2ul0.app.link/rAaQ8f3V4Wb  Best Foot Forward: https://g2ul0.app.link/So4hbb5V4Wb  (00:00) Intro (02:08) Otto and Shirley's Heritage (06:49) Shirley's Upbringing in the Wirral (09:15) Shirley's Experience of School (12:10) How Shirley Became Obsessed with Dance (15:06) Moving to London at 16 (18:40) Moving to Manchester and Starting Her Latin Dance Career (22:13) Class in the UK and How It Relates to the Dance Industry (29:56) How Shirley Met Corky Ballas (35:46) Does Shirley Regret Leaving Sammy for Corky? (44:42) Why Shirley and Corky's Relationship Came to an End (48:16) Tinder Ad (49:16) Adobe Express Ad (50:34) How Shirley Came to Be on Strictly Come Dancing (55:10) The Enduring Popularity of Strictly (01:00:37) Would Paul Go on Strictly? (01:01:41) Who Is Shirley's Fantasy Strictly Contestant? (01:03:05) Who Is the Biggest Surprise During Shirley's Time on Strictly? (01:04:32) The Importance of Shirley's Brother David to Her Life (01:14:41) Shirley's Battle With Body Image (01:22:12) Shirley Reads a Letter to Her Younger Self (01:25:44) Most Memorable Conversation (01:31:16) Shirley and Celebs Go Dating (01:37:38) Paul's Takeaways Sponsored by: Tinder: https://tinder.com/en-GB  Adobe Express: https://ADOBE.LY/PAUL  Get Your Tickets to the Love Better Tour! Bristol - https://g2ul0.app.link/mt5I2RKhrXb Cardiff - https://g2ul0.app.link/5mZIoBNhrXb Glasgow - https://g2ul0.app.link/FMk3N4PhrXb Birmingham - https://g2ul0.app.link/pJIj4XShrXb Manchester - https://g2ul0.app.link/4SQwKDXhrXb Brighton - https://g2ul0.app.link/BO71HSZhrXb London - https://g2ul0.app.link/gm6iB91hrXb Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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Would you say your brother saved you? I don't think I was put on planet Earth to have somebody to love me. I think I'm on planet Earth to get the dancers to where they need to be. Let's unpack that. At 18, I married Sammy. Before I knew it, we were at hero to hero. Nobody came near us. We were at the top of the industry.

Yes. And then I suddenly left. I told Sammy I was in love with somebody else. And three months after being with Corky, I knew I'd made a mistake and then I get pregnant when I got in strictly I said no one's going to want a 57 year old lady

to go into TV for the thousands and thousands of wonderful compliments that I got I'd focus on the negative ones people doing stick figures with my face on and coffins and die you bitch

Shirley, what happened with your brother? He just went into a dark hole with depression and I said why don't you come up for the weekend he goes no I'm feeling much better and he took his own life that weekend. If I look back now, I would have told myself it's going to be okay. You will be

underestimated, overlooked, and sometimes betrayed, but you will never be broke. Let's start from the beginning. Hey, right before I go in, I just want to say this. We absolutely love shooting this podcast and we need your help. So hit subscribe. That's how you can help us. Shirley Ballas, we need to talk. I'm very excited about this. Can we start with that? Yeah. Why are you so excited? Well, first of all, I met you, didn't I? Several weeks ago was the first time I met you and you was such a calming influence and you were so kind.

And I did my research on you and I thought, well, this is a real, really nice person. We lived in the same neighborhood, Dulwich. And I thought this is going to be quite something when I got asked to do this. And I was like, where are we going to fit it in? Fit it in. I said, I'd really like to do this. Now, I will say when we met, one thing that I realized about. you is how much of a grafter you are. And that spiraled me into this long, what I call days and days and

days of research on you. And I've been blown away, entirely blown away. And I want to start in a place that you probably are going to say, oh my gosh, I cannot believe you're starting there. Okay. I want to start with auto. Auto. Yes. This would be, I believe, you're great? Oh, my great, great, great grandparents. Wow, you watch that as well. Who do you think you are? Who is Otto?

And how do you believe that Otto lives within you today? Well, first of all, I went back four generations when I did, Who Do You Think You Are? Madagascar came from Black Heritage. Muslim, I believe, was in there as well. Well, most of them worked in the laundry or they worked on cotton farms. And I really believe from way back then, that is where I definitely got my work ethic. Because I was researching to try to find the dancer in my family.

My mother doesn't dance. My father never danced. You know, or no cousins. It's just like something we don't really understand where it came from. That's why I set out on that journey. Do I have somebody that's into music or is there somebody that just does this, that are tap in their feet or anything. No, nothing.

But I do believe that my great ancestors loved music. There was always music playing. A lot of my grandparents back then carried baskets on their head. They picked cotton and things like that. So I wonder if they kind of had that buzz of some sort of musicality. But I still came away from that show and didn't really know where this dance thing came from that I'm so obsessed with.

I'm obsessed is what I am with what I do. So it's not just a job for me. I'm married to it. That's probably why I don't have a relationship. But I just love everything about music and movement. But yeah, that was quite a journey to go back all the way to South Africa and readdress my roots. Yes, yes.

It was quite eye-opening. I did the journey myself with no help from my father because it was his side of the family that we were going back to look at. And somewhere along the line, my dad had shame. I don't know why, you know. But, yeah, he was most unhelpful and said, of course, if I did that show, he didn't want to talk to me or anything. Really about that? Your father grew up in, what, the 50s?

Yes. 40s and 50s. Yes. Born around 37. Born around 37. Yeah. So born around 37, he's living in the West. He then may already know that he is mixed heritage.

Yes. think he did know. He did know. So what's happening in the 30s for many people is they're trying to cover that up. I mean, you haven't even had many, there's many instances all throughout the world of people of color who would try to pass, which means that they would try to appear as if they were not of color, maybe that they were white in order to be accepted by society. So I would imagine that perhaps to a certain degree that was happening with your father. But then also do you think that he was being ostracized at all because he was of mixed heritage? I'm not sure because he left when I was two.

And he never really had, he never had anything to do with my life. You know, he never bought me a pair of dance shoes or took me anywhere or was interested in what I did. But later on in life, when I got these opportunities, when I got on strictly, it became a little bit more, oh that's my daughter type of thing I mean he's passed now so I don't want to talk ill of the dead but he he just didn't want to ever communicate about anything you shouldn't delve into the past

it's embarrassing don't dig up anything was what he said and funnily enough the more he said it the more curious I became and my mother wasn't really sure except when she had my brother as a baby my sister-in-law said oh he's white and she was quite surprised by that

and she recollected that and wondered, you know, did they think he was going to turn out with different coloured skin or what did they think, I don't know. Yeah, it's fascinating. Fascinating for me. Yeah, it's fascinating. You know, so you grew up, was it where?

Outside of Liverpool. I grew up across the water from Liverpool in the Wirral, a place called Wallercy on the Liso Housing Estate. Your mother raised you. Yes. But your mother and your father split up. when they were, when you were how old?

Two, at least, maybe even a little bit younger than two. Two. It was the happiest day of her life. Of your mother's life? Yeah. She could, she was so delighted because, you know, he'd drink a lot and it became, when he'd had a drink, he wasn't the nicest person, if I'd put it like that. And I think he just made my mother's life complete misery.

You know, he would say, okay, I'm going down the road for some milk and wouldn't come back for three weeks. He was that type of person. I see. So when the opportunity came for her to get it. divorced, even though she had two small children. She took that opportunity. And no one ever helped my mother. None of her family. My grandparents were quite good to her. I remember going there on Sundays, but financially, my mother was on her own. And you know, back then in the day, she was born

also in 37. Back then in the day, it was pretty tough. She was with menial jobs working here at that nightclub or the Melody Inn or Finnegan's happiest days of a life. She loved working in the nightclubs, did she? And then a cabarees and making sales, you know, at home. I just remember working from morning till night just so that she could have enough money to pay the rent, get David and I. We always look smart. There was school. We had a decent meal on the table. But I know it was tough for her. Yes. And to your point of it was different then, right? I think we don't give enough, I think, there's not enough awareness to how different the landscape in the world was. So this was what 1960s?

So I were born in 1960. Okay. So now what I know about the 1960s is that the divorce rate was very, very low. The divorce rate was probably 5 to 10 percent, whereas today it's almost 50 percent. Yeah. Now the reason why it was 5 to 10 percent is because it was shameful, right? It was shame. No matter how terrible.

your husband was, right? You stayed together. You stayed together. So for that 5 to 10% of women in particular who left and took a divorce, their resilience was off the charts. So I would imagine that your mother incredibly resilient. What was school like for you as a little girl? When I went to middle school and I really got into the dancing, why I used to arrange everybody in the yard to do formation teams, and I'd teach them a bit of chat, chot, chaw.

And there was a girl then. She didn't like me at all, so she was a bully. She beat the living daylights out of me on the school field. And when I broke my ankle doing high jump, she said, you're never going to dance again. You know, she was just made my life very, very difficult in school, so much so I still remember her name. And I was terrified about my leg and my foot that I had broken.

And I would stay in cookery class longer. I didn't want to go out because I knew that I was going to get, either beat up or called names. I found myself always on alert. I was always hypervigilant. I was never that relaxed kind of child. Yes. So some parts of school were difficult.

But that's where I was first introduced to bullying, which went on through my life. But it made me stronger. I became more aware of where bullying comes from. And the issue with bullying is it wasn't me. It was their own issue. Yes. But at the time you don't realize that.

You think it's, you and am I showing off too much or am I doing this, shouldn't I be doing that? Yes, yes. And I guess in a way I was a bit of a show off in the yard, the chatt charring, quick stepping all around the playground. But I'm sure you're doing it correctly. Correctly. You know, you just said something that I find so intriguing and that is that you said at a

young age you became hypervigilant. I did. Hypervigilant for red flags. What that does is it puts us in this constant state of a. anxiety. Would you say that's how you felt? I think that's who I felt and that's how I live and still working on it to this day, you know, from when I went to the first, and I won't go too much into this, but when I first started dancing and used to go to the church hall and we had our dance teacher there, let's just put it this way, he wasn't the kind of man that should

have been around young children, if I put it like that. And I remember that being this big silver trophy and I've got the highest marks on my exam test for the dancing and he'd wave that trophy in front of me and then give it to somebody else. I still remember that. I can still remember all sorts of things from back then. I can recall it like it was yesterday because that's how it stuck in my mind. And I think that's where I first got the feeling that not all people are good people. Of course, I was also brave and told my mother and I think I saved a lot of girls. And she moved me immediately. And that's when I went to Liverpool to a lady called Margaret Redmond for my dancing.

I was probably about 11 then. Okay. What was it about dance? Because you're talking about your 11 at this time. So, and your dance is an obsession, as you call it. It's an obsession. I started at 7. Well, he did ballet at 2 and moved to ballroom at age 7.

And was at the brownies doing when you put your things on the dummy and you try to. Oh, it was like the CPR? CPR. That's what we were doing. We were doing the CPR. And I could hear this music. Moon River, it was, coming from another room. And so I kind of followed the music, and this is where I saw that man and his wife teaching something.

I didn't know what it was. And I knocked on the door, and I said, what they're doing. He said, it's the waltz. And we have children's classes starting on Saturday. So that's how the dancing started. And it was 15 p a week for the class. But my mother was nervous. 15 pence was a lot of money back then.

Well, you'll need shoes and you'll need a drink. dress, but we had a lady next door who was to make my dresses and never lost my dance shoes that she bought me. You know, it was quite the time I learned how to be respectful, work hard. The more my mother saw I worked hard, the more she invested in me. You know, so that's where all the dancing started. I see it. So we always worked as a team. We still lived together today, me mom and I, on and off throughout my life. I've always lived with my mother.

Yes, yes. I see that she is, she's the consistent. She's been consistent in your life. She's the matriarch. She is the queen. She is my everything. And I just couldn't imagine life without her. Yes. And she's advised me along the way when I got older and I didn't always listen.

But boy, should I have taken her advice on many more occasions. But like she said, she's there to give advice and then she's there to pick up the pieces when it all goes wrong. And many times in my life it went wrong. It went wrong. Yeah. You said that you've always felt like you can go to, your mother, what do you believe your mother did to allow you to have that level, not only for you to develop the confidence, but you to feel as if you could tell her anything. And the reason why I ask

this is because so many parents want their children to come to them and feel like they can, you know, you could say anything to me, but so many children are reluctant to go to their parents because they feel like they'll be judged or something else. So what do you think it was about your mother in her parenting that allowed you to go to her with anything? I think that's a tough question to answer, really, because my mother with her own mother, no one talked about anything.

Somehow I felt it was easier to talk to her on any level about anything, whether it was dancing, whether it was this man or whoever, other people even. she just always made it comfortable but she didn't come from that kind of background where she was made comfortable to talk about things. Yes, yes. But let's get into dance, okay?

Because one thing that I think probably is not realized, especially for the Strictly fans, is they don't realize how prolific of a dancer you are, but also how much of a champion, right, you've been throughout your career. So at 16, is that when you first moved to London? Well, I moved to Yorkshire when I was 14. When you're 14?

So I moved in with the Tiffany family. I met Nigel Tiffany. He was the British ballroom champion. And I got an opportunity to dance with him. But it meant me leaving home in their small council house in Shipley and Yorkshire. And so I left at 14 by 16. Nigel and I got engaged to be married. And I told him, I want to leave and go to the park.

Bright Lights of London. I don't want to. It was cramped and there was competition between him, between me and his sister. And the mother never got the feeling that she particularly cared for me, you know, so I thought, no, my mother thought it was absolutely bonkers. So I got myself a rented apartment. I got myself a job in London. I was not qualified for. I lived in a flat that was full of roaches opposite of famous dance studio, the top of the stairs dance studio. And I moved at 16. And I said to Nigel, you come or you stay, but I'm going. So I had a friend who helped me get a room in above the Nest restaurant in Norbury. And what was your vision for you and dance at 16? I think I was always running. I think I've always been running, but I'm not sure what I'm

running from. I just wanted to experience this, what I saw on the telly. I'd never been to London. You know, it just seemed like it was bright lights and, you know, there was lots of dancing. All the dancers, great dancers you heard came from London. So your thought was, I'm going to go, I'm going to just experience this. But was it, I'm going to go and become a champion? I'm going to, no, it was just. Six months after being there, my teacher called me and she said, Shirley, you're engaged, you want to get married, but I've got this professional Latin boy that I would like you to try out if you want to try him out. His name is Sammy Stottford. Now you do more ballroom and he's more Latin. I said, but I'm engaged and I need to talk to Nigel. And in my heart I felt, always felt like a Latin

dancer, even though I was okay at ballroom. And I said, well, I'll let you know tomorrow. She said, you know, you've got two hours to let me know if you want to do it or not. And of course, I've just got this apartment. We're in love. 16, 16 and a half. And I said to a no, I'll do the try-out. right there on the phone. Went home. Nigel was doing the ironing after work. And I told them, I said, you are a great ballroom dancer. I feel I'm a Latin dancer.

I've got this opportunity. And Nigel said to me, if you take the opportunity, you're out. You're out. And there's that crossroad, you see. Do I stay? Yes. Or do I go? So there was this big blaze row, if you like, with him doing the ironing.

And I left that night with all my clothes in two plastic bags. and I called Nina, furious that I had told Nigel, in case it didn't work. And I walked in and this Sammy Stockford said to me, I don't know who you are, Shirley Rich, but our teacher with mutual teacher, Nina Hunt, believes in you as a Latin dancer. So I did a little bit of rumba with her, with him. And he said, you're coming with me. You feel great.

My life changed overnight. Let's unpack that, though. So you were willing to watch. walk from the man you love that you're engaged with, that is your dance partner. Yes. Just for a chance. And I felt like, you know, a higher, you know, the Lord or somebody who I'm very Christian and sort of said, I'm giving you this place, you're flat.

You're getting this job. Nigel was outside in his little yellow mini in case it fell apart and he was going to have me back. Okay. And then I went off with this other man and moved back up to Manchester. Did you? So now I've gone from the ESO housing estate to Yorkshire, from Yorkshire to London, and now from London all the way up to Manchester. I'm barely 17. All right. Do you have a North Star for dance at that point?

Well, you have to understand, I don't he ever really danced as a junior. And then when you're 16, you go into the adult section. You know, so it was like, I never danced as a youth under 21. and never danced really much as an amateur. I was certainly no high flyer. And suddenly I'm with a man that's seventh in the professional division, which is the highest division. So he's got this girl, he was four years older than me.

I didn't know anything, nothing at all. And here I am with this man. I don't know living with this bunch of people, I don't know. And my mother thinking, I've totally lost the plot. You know, so it was, I look back to myself. I think, what on earth were you? What was running through that tiny mind of you? She's still a teenager.

Yes. But I didn't really have a teenage life. I never went out to bars. I never had anything like that. It was always dance and staying focused. And I think I worked hard. But there was at one point when my dance teacher said to me, I just don't like your name.

Your name? Because it was Shirley Rich. Oh, I come from a house in the state. We were poor, broke. And she said, I like the name. Sammy and Shirley Stopford, the non-stop stopford's. I think I should get married. So it's 18, I'm married, Sammy.

We got married. And if she was exactly right, it was the non-stop-stop. We went from zero to hero. Before I knew it, we were third in the world, one of the youngest females to ever make it to such a high position in such a short space of time. Our career just went off the charts. We just flew up those ranks.

We got married, we bought a house, we had a home together. We were flying high. Came the British champion when I was 22 years of age. Okay. You know, won every major championship by the age of 22. Okay. Which is mind-blowing? Mind-blowing.

And something I'd worked for all my life, never really knowing I was going to make those great heights, you know. I was earning good money. I now had a house of my own, had a car of my own, from really not having a car as a kid. or a fridge or a washing machine or anything like that. So now I've got all these things. And I remember holding that trophy when I was 22 and feeling totally empty. Oh, great. We have to talk about this, all of what you just mentioned.

So it was your, was it the instructor? Nina Hunt. Who suggested that she didn't like your name. She didn't like my name. Okay. So I'd love to talk, and I've never heard you talk about this, is I love to talk about class and dance and professional dance. Okay.

Okay. How do those two intersect? And here's where I'm going with this is. Classes in the person. Exact class. Because it was not until I came to the UK that I fully understood how much of the culture is based on class and how much opportunity or limitation of opportunity is based on class.

Now, this is a, for a lot of folks, this is a dangerous topic, okay? But the reason why I'm bringing it up now is because I didn't, not until I did this research on you, did I realize that you came from very humble beginnings? But my mother always wanted to feel she was upper class. Really? I can say that. I'm sure she won't be mad at me. Yes, my mother's always thought, she put me in elocution lesson so that I could talk a little bit there. She didn't want me like with that really twang accent, you know what I mean?

Even now, you know, I feel that she doesn't like me talking too much about where we came from or, you know, she likes to think that she did the best that she could. Yes. You know, I think maybe we go back in her heritage. She would maybe royal or regal somewhere along the line. And but we did come from humble, really, you know, the lower end of middle class, I would say. Okay. All right. So then when you were.

But people made me feel like that too. They make you. See, this is where I wanted to go is I would imagine that that was part of the resistance that you were probably getting early on in your career. Well, with Nina, she was a very strict teacher. So she was suggesting that we get married and was very fond of Sammy, but we never dated. We never went out. Suddenly came from London to Manchester. Within six months, we were engaged.

And shortly after that, we were married. It was all boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. But I don't get, I mean, was that normal to just make. Well, you know, it was Alan and Hazel Fletcher, Espin and Schistin Solberg. Years later, he was gay. Schishton moved on. People just seemed to get married. You know, it just seemed everybody was married.

To your partner. That's what you did back then. Not so much now, but definitely back then. But she didn't like my name. She likes Sammy's name. And that's what we went with in the end. We got married. I took on his name.

always felt a little bit never really quite good enough in anything that I was doing probably my own feelings. Sammy was very much the dominant one, the one who controlled all the situation because he was seventh in the world because he had been educated

on that. He was a trainer to all the top dancers in the country, the world champions, Donnie Burns and Gainer Fairweather and Marcus Hilton. He trained all these great people. So it was a bit like, you know, Sammy Stockford, I'm with Sammy Stockford, now I'm engaged to Sammy Stockford,

now I'm going to marry Sammy Stockford, you know, he was the ruler of the roost. But somewhere deep down in me, and I think it comes from, Clara, my grandmother's mother. Okay. I think it comes somewhere there. I was a very strong character, and it was very hard to boss me about. I had a voice, I was always trying to have a voice. Yes. And then there would be fireworks, you know.

I learned how to deal with relationships at a very, very young age. Yes, yes. And even though, okay, so Sam is your partner? You're almost forced to not, I don't, is forced the right word, forced into the marriage? I mean, it's not force. I wouldn't use force because, you know, at the end of the day you do it of your own free will and you think that you're in love. And I know that Sammy gets upset that when I say this because we're still friends today,

but what do you really know about love at 16? What was I doing getting engaged to Nigel? Now Nigel, just so that our lovely listeners understand, he's my financial advisor to date, been in my life all this time. Probably the right person, wrong time. We've been friends all these years and he truly gets me. And Sammy is, even though we've had our ups and downs over the years

and I left him, we're in the same industry and I know in a New York minute if I needed him, he would be there. So, you know, somehow I've managed to. cultivate, keeping in contact with, you know, and building relationships. Because at the end of the day, life is about experiences and you make choices and you live and die by your choices. Yes. These are the things that my mother taught me.

Yes. You know, whatever choice you make, this is where you're going, you know. Yes. And I don't know, Nina, she was a great teacher, great coach. Never thought I was ever quite thin enough. That's then where the weight starts coming. Sammy was very tiny, a little tiny little 27-inch waist, you know, and with a similar height.

And I'm always having to be on a diet. So not only did she advise I get married, she also wanted me to trim down and be the right shape for Sammy, you know. So then all that started, you know. Interesting. When I look back now, I think where a lot of these things came from my insecurities, you know. Yes, yes. So when you married Sammy, you were how old?

18 and a half somewhere around there, yeah. Yeah, look at that. that 8-18. So still this little baby. You're a baby. You're a baby. So you get married. It's safe to say that you don't love Sammy.

I thought I did at the time. You know, I mean, you don't get married to somebody that you dislike. I mean, it was good to me. We had nice cars. We had nice homes. We had a great career. But Sammy was very much about work, work, work. He loved to work.

We had a studio called the Stockford's Dance Club in Droilsden in Manchester. I ran that as well as the home, as well as running backwards. and forwards to London, dancing. I felt overwhelmed being married, I think. And we didn't have date nights to be fair to Sammy and I. We looked back now. We didn't really have the time to cultivate a relationship. If we'd have had better advice and we were able to cultivate

and listen to each other and understand more about love ourselves, maybe it would have been a different scenario. But it wasn't, and the life, it was fast, tracked. It was like on a bullet train all the time. Competition in January and then a month later and a month later we were always trying to get to that destination of winning. We missed one final at the international championships and by one mark and he said that will never happen again and it didn't. We never missed another final. So it was fast tracked all the time and

there was all these people delving in your life and like I say we didn't really ever have that time as a one-on-one. Now, if I go out to lunch with Sammy and it's just him and I with nobody else wrapping down his ear, all, we have a laugh, we can talk about things other than dancing. He gets my sense of humour. I get his sarcasm. You know, so it's different now, but it has to be when it's just him and I. If there's outside influences, it's different. Yeah, it makes it all rather unkind, shall we say. Fair enough. So then just on the career track, what?

was next on the career track for you and Sammy because you were then consistently two were champions. Nobody came near us. We were going to win it. We were destined to win everything, I would say, probably for the next 10 years. We were so far in front and I had improved to such a degree through his training. We won this British Championships and then we got invited. We went to to Montreal to do a championship for Miriam Pearson and whilst we were there all the way in that snowy country this man called Corky Ballas came along he danced with a girl called Petria Locky

did pro amateur pro amateur pro amateur is like what you see on strictly a professional with an amateur and that's what corkey did and he he was okay you know I remember he had these thick rim glasses anyway he came to Sammy and he said I'd like to employ you and bring you to Texas

to teach my partner and I and meet my family. Little did I know at the time his father invented the weed eater, the strimmer that cuts the weeds from around the trees. Oh, really? And the blowers, you know, the blowers that you use?

That was father, George Charles Ballas, Sr. He was one who invented that from a popcorn can. Multi, multi-millionaire family. Wow. Anyway, we made the trip. Corky came from this family of five brothers and sisters and a mom and a dad. and it was a very warm family and Sammy didn't want to go out for dinner with him.

He just wanted to do his job, go home at night, watch his videos. But he said, oh, take my wife, you see? And Corky took me everywhere and we laughed and we danced and there seemed to be like an attraction to him and I. And then I thought I'd fallen in love with the man of my dreams. And so Sammy never came out at all, not one evening. So for seven days and nights after work, I'd get dressed, go out, meet his family, go here, go there. Saw this lifestyle that I thought. In another country.

In another country. Yeah, that you'd never been to, never visited. And you could say my head was turned. And I came home and Corky and I stayed in touch long distance. Sometimes he flew over to England and I was sneaking about and it was just all so wrong. But as a young person back then, I was searching for this feeling, this love that. that I probably never got from my own father. And Sammy was a bit like a dad feeling.

It felt a bit like that, you know. Like I say, we didn't have this nurtured love relationship. And then I got this attraction. And then I ran away, if you like, when I was 23. I left everything. Great Britain, the lot. It lasted one year with this dating to and from. And the following year I left.

I told Sammy I was in love with somebody else. and it was all drama and lots of heartbreak. And my mother who just was advising me not to go, that, you know, was stable, at a nice home. We were on a great path. We were doing so well. We were at the top of the industry. Yes.

And then I suddenly left. I thought I didn't want to dance anymore. I wanted this lifestyle with this man. Okay. Now, did you feel any shame in that period of time? you know, when you and Korky began your relationship, because you were still married to Sammy. Corky, he doesn't have a, he wasn't not in a relationship.

He was in a relationship with his partner. Oh, he was? Yeah, Petria Locky, but she was about 10 years older than him. Oh, my goodness. Yeah, he was in a relationship as well. So he was cheating as well. Yeah. Okay, so I would imagine there was a sense of excitement.

It was, it would be hard to explain to you. It was just like this warm, fuzzy feeling. But at the same time, there was deceit that was going on. And that was just didn't sit well with me. And that's why I decided to tell Sammy. I told him face to face, we were in Germany at a dance camp. And I told him I've met somebody. I'm in love with this man.

Now, I told Sammy about six weeks before our first world championship. So we won the British Championship. We were destined to become the world championship winners. And Sammy said, well, if you give up the boyfriend, the lover, we can move on, forget everything, and win our world championship. Really? And Corky said, if you stay, I won't be here when you do that world championship. So here we go, another pivotal moment. Yes.

Which decision should I take? Should I give up Corky and get my world championship? Or shall I leave and go, you know, or should I stay, should I go, should I stay? And also, if you give up quirky, not only you get your world championship, but you get what your mother wants, you get what society is telling you to keep. What society is telling you is best for you. Yes. Yeah. And I decided to go.

So I became every champion except the world champion. And I could have finangled that and got that world championship, but even I had better morals than that. and I didn't. I left with a big long fur coat on and off I went to America thinking to myself, I'm in love, this is what I want. Now when I look back,

I think to myself, Sammy and I never had any holidays. We never had any love time. You know, it was never just about him and I. There was always an entourage of people. Yes. You know, Bob Dale was a big influence in our life and other people.

It didn't stand. a chance. That love relationship didn't stand a chance. And then when this other opportunity came along, I took it. And three months after been with Corky, I knew I'd made a mistake. Right. But even before that, Shirley, is that one thing that I definitely now know about you is that you are focused. I'm the most focused person you'll ever come across. So I can imagine it was very, you contemplated that world championship quite a bit. Do you have any regrets not staying with Sammy, not just to maintain the relationship, but to get that world championship.

You know, I have a son with Corky, and Sammy has a beautiful boy with his wife, Barbara, called Samuel. If I hadn't had taken that road, he wouldn't have that beautiful boy who's a fantastic opera singer and is destined to go to the top of the opera. He wouldn't have that, Sammy. And I wouldn't have my son, Mark. but if you were to remove the children out of it, really, I had regrets about leaving Sammy.

I tried to go back to Sammy and he'd already met Barbara and he didn't want to take that chance and he said, no, you were a wallflower when I met you and you'll always be a wallflower. So, and that's where that wallflower stuck with me, that one line that he said, you know, because he then went on in a short space of time with Barbara

to go back into his position. He was second in the world. Somebody else had taken first now because we left. But he was second and then he was winning major championships with her. And I had to start from scratch. I didn't know what to do. Corky had an eye for the ladies, should we put it like that. Super rich family.

Bit of the bratty behavior, if you like, you know, driving a Mercedes-Benz and we were going to parties all the time with hat pins and I thought, this is not for me. I need to go back to teaching. to get some reality in my life. That lifestyle, that rich lifestyle was not who I was. And also from what I understand, they lived in Texas. Texas.

And the wealthy Texas lifestyle is different. Oh, it was big, brash and bold. Yes. They lived on 10 acres in the most fantastic, their own helicopter pad, you know, their own hotel, the West Chase Hilton. They owned the West Chase Hilton Hotel and everything. You know, it was like I say, it was mega. but in a short space of time I knew I'd made a mistake.

It wasn't for me. But then Sammy didn't want me back. And when I called my mother, she said, you made your bed, you've to lie in it. You have to figure this one out. I cannot tell you at, you know, 22, 23 years of age, what your next step is, I don't know. So there was tears and with myself and fighting with my inside

at this now, still young age, young adult now, past those teenage years that I never had, that most people would be learning about love relationships. You know, I'm engaged, I'm married, and now I'm in this relationship with this other man. And I decided I... And then I'm sorry, Shirley, because you said three months after you moved,

you realized it was a mistake. How did you know it was a mistake? What was the... Because he had an eye for the ladies. Okay. I'll say it politely. Okay. And he was young and why not?

Why not? But I think, and this is just my assumption. So if he's listening, Corky, I hope you didn't take this the wrong way. I think in the end his dad said to him, Mr. Ballas, whom I adore and loved, and he was a great mentor for me, you've brought this girl from England. She's given up her marriage for you. She's given up her career for you. The best thing you could do is honour this relationship. That's what I think happened. It was never said, but it was the feeling I got. And then we got married, you know, barely 23. Wow. So even after you knew it was a mistake, you still got married.

Yeah. Started to teach him to dance. He was a food and beverage director for his father, the West Chase Hilton. Plus he had all the Pac-Man machines all around of Houston, drove a nice car. He was flashy. He was good-looking. He dressed well in Zanelli slacks and monogram shirts. Even his sheets were monogrammed and the pillar cases were monogrammed.

Everything was monogrammed. That's what I remember. And I thought, I'm going to have to teach him from scratch. Okay. How to be a professional dancer. He was an amateur pro-am dancer. Hardest job I ever did. But the bottom line to that is we did get married.

We started that journey. Sammy now is second in the world as a professional. And I'm at the very, very, very beginning. And I have to climb that tree again. And in 1995, Korky and I won that. British professional Latin American championship and Sammy was second. Look at that.

Look at that. I've got to do it. I won in 83 came back in 95 and 96 to win with a boy that nobody believed in. And I think even though Corky and I have had a lot of ups and downs

throughout the years, he said I was the best teacher that he ever had. And, you know, he owes a lot to me. We moved to England. We left Texas. Again, another pivoting moment. I knew that we couldn't make it

as dancers if we did not live in Great Britain, representing Great Britain. And why is that? Just the way the politics were, just the way that, you know, what I'd learned from Sammy is you need to be in with the swim if you ever really want a chance of winning. The world has changed now, but back then we were the capital. We had all the best dancers in the world. So, you know, doing this journey again like this

and now I've got married just barely. And then I get pregnant. was using contraception and found out I was pregnant and I remember calling my mother and she went oh my God you're not they were her first words out of her mouth I laugh at that now because that's my mom so now I'm navigating a new lifestyle

with a new husband pregnant wanting to be back in the final or the semi-final in a world that I realised I loved and now so I then to cut the line Long story short, we became the United States champion.

I think we won that 10 times. And then when Mark was four, and in 1990, I said to Corky, if you really want a shot at the big time, we'll have to move back to Great Britain. We had a beautiful home in Katie. We both drove nice cars. I was working, teaching. He was doing his thing. And that's what we did.

We gave it all up. But I got Corky into teaching and we moved back to England. We started from scratching a little two up and two down in Mitchum, which for Corky, if you could imagine, 10 acres, helicopter pad, all the money in the world to a two up and two down. You know, we barely had enough money. We had to really start with a four-year-old and my mother in tow because she was taking care of my son.

Yeah. And also, too, is with that substantial, I didn't realize there was a substantial loss of wealth. So I would imagine psychologically that has to weigh on him as well. But Corky it did. For me it didn't, but for him it did. And his other brother and sisters, I would say, you know, it took a minute to come to grips with that. Fortunately, they all had to get jobs, you know, because they all used to work for ballast enterprises.

But then when that went, you know, away, they all had to get jobs. I just went back to my teaching. How much of that climb was about you wanting to beat Sammy versus you just wanting to win? I think I wanted to prove to myself and take the tools I'd learned with Sammy. It's much easier for a man to dance with a woman and go to the top than it is for a top-class woman who'd won to take a beginner man back in. It was all sorts of things that go on in that scenario. Nobody believed in us.

Everyone thought Corky was a joke. They treated him terribly. I write about that in my first autobiography. But he was resilient, Corky. I learned resilience from Corky. He was bulletproof. People were mean, said horrible things to him, but he used to have this bulletproof vest on.

And he said, I can take this, Shirley. We can do it. You stick with me, Shirley. I'll take you places. That's what he used to say to me when he could barely put one foot in front of the other. So I admired that resilience in Corky. And I thought, well, if he thinks he can do this,

maybe I can do that. And what I learned about, because it was more men than women, male ego, how do I get back into the, that system in Great Britain and navigate this career with this boy that can barely dance as a professional. He had experience. He could do flamenco dancing. His mother was a fantastic flamenco dancer and his dad had a big studio with Fred Astaire. So he was familiar with dad's it but not at the level that I danced. And he stuck with it. He worked hard and he stuck with it. It was like climbing Kilimanjaro with no shoes on. Yes, yes. It's,

It's such an inspiring story because I see how resilient you are. But when we go back to even that period where you had just won the championship, you know, you mentioned that Korky had an eye. From what I understand, that was what was the demise of that relationship in particular. So were you aware of this throughout your marriage and still stayed? I was somewhat aware of it. Okay. And there was moments when I wanted to come back.

But that wasn't possible. And then, of course, I got married and then I got pregnant very quickly after that. And I didn't want that child to be without a father. So I stayed in that marriage till my son was 15. And it was turbulent. If I put it like that, it was turbulent. Even now, Corky said he looks back and some of the mistakes that he made as a young man, he wishes that he could turn back the time.

But you can't turn back time. and I think that I left Nigel and I left Sammy and basically I probably got what I deserved. Do you not mean? So I don't think I'm put on planet Earth to have a relationship. Every relationship even after that was a disaster for me, ended up being a disaster. Even with my last boyfriend, I thought I'd found the one forever and, you know, that turned out also not to work. So I'm just going to focus on my grandson and my family And I'm going to try to start blocking out noise

And start to find a little bit more insular for myself And just with a very small team around me But I think it's been a rocky life Yes Like I say, even at 65 I was going to have a big party And in the end, I just decided that I would have it with my drive George and my PA, Harry and my mum, we'd have just this quiet, no-noise,

lunch at Selfridges with a little shop round Marks and Spencers. Yes. Then, you know, I just feel judged all the time, you know, even at this age, you know, so... Yeah. Self-inflicted, I know. Well, I don't know about the self-inflicted part.

talking anything about me or, you know, my feelings. I tend to bottle them all, you know, until like somebody like yourself starts to talk about them. It feels more like a therapy session. And then it all comes to the surface. And then all I see is, like I say, is I'm up here and I look down at the mess I made. But then again, Sammy's part, a Barbara, who I chose that girl for him, believe it or not. She was my student. and she went on to be, you know, multiple times open to the world.

And then I look at these people who also got to experience the great heights that I'd experienced with Sammy. And I know it's strange and I look and I think, well, you know, you had a part in that destiny, which I think sometimes people don't look at. They don't look at a decision or a choice you can make, even though you were the one that was cheating in a marriage, would have a profound effect on other people,

went on to be mega superstars. So I quietly think about that to myself, even when these people criticize me or still remind me of the past. I think, you know, well, if I hadn't have done that, this, this, this wouldn't happen. Have you ever been on a date where you're trying so hard to just be yourself that suddenly it feels impossible? You start overthinking everything, how to sit normally, what to do with your hands, then you end up doing something weird like this? Now, let's flip that. I want you to think about how you are

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Download Tinder today and try double date because everything is better with your bestie. Paul was about to show your presentation he made in Adobe Express. So you better be nice. You might not know this, but I am the proud co-owner of the mighty Sutton United States. Football Club. And this year, I had the honor of designing our Away kit. First things first, Sutton Amber, Black, the Crest, the fonts, locked in with our sponsor Adobe Express's brand kit. I was presenting to the board, and the story I wanted to tell was that we're modern, we're sleek. Yes, we were founded in 1898, but we're still a club that belongs in 2025. I wanted

everyone from a 10-year-old to a 90-year-old in the stands to say, I want that. All over Sutton United script pattern. Mono Crest, Amber trim, I obsessed over the collar. Okay, Paul. Are you ready? Yes! Yes! Yes! Look at that! Look at them! That is it! That is it! Yes! Got a pitch to make? Adobe Express is the quick, easy and free app to create anything, like this presentation. Real quick, if you're enjoying this conversation, take a second to hit subscribe and tap the bell icon. It's a small click that makes a big difference. Thank you. All right. I'm going to get it. So then Mark played a role in you getting the job on Strictly. I would say it solely down to the fact that he pushed me out of a comfort zone. Mark said to me at lunch one day,

I hear Uncle Len, because we've known Len all our life, it was also one of my teachers, is leaving Strictly come dancing. I said, and where did you hear that? He said, on the great vine, mum, why don't you inquire and see? I said, no one's going to want a 57-year-old lady to go into TV who's never sat behind camera lights. He said, but how do you know if you don't try? Anyway, I was due to sit with Strictly come dancing over another student. It was actually A.J. At the time, talking about different talent because I find talent for all the shows around the world to do with Strictly dancing with the stars around the world. And Leng's name came up.

And I said, well, I've heard that they might be. leaving and they were a little bit coy. And I said, you know, it would be nice to think that one day perhaps you could have a woman in that role. And eventually, they asked me, would I like to have an audition for that? And I said to Mark, should I, should. And I said, absolutely, I paid my own way over, had the audition, which went horribly wrong. And what, because I've heard you say that this was a horrible audition. Horrible experience. What was the audition? Well, I flew in from L.A. I had sciatic. I always. I've had a bad back for 25 years.

Had sciatic, I could barely walk one foot in front of the other. They made me all up. It was early in the morning, all the eyelashes and the hair and a long dress. They sat me behind all these cameras, green lights, red lights. I've never done that. And then they sat next to me this huge human being, which turned out to be Craig Revel Horwood. And I didn't know him either at all.

And then he just sat there, you know, and you know how he does. That's like this. does Craig. I'm more friendly and chitty-chatti, but I sat there froze and it was freezing in the studio. And up come the cameras and the lady said, now we're going to throw a couple upon the screen. You've 15 seconds to critique it. You know, what would you say in 15 seconds? Now, I'm used to a 45 minute lesson where I can go from your feet to the top of your head. I thought to myself, I can do this, I can do this. And up there she comes, Anne Whittaker spinning in that yellow dress like a,

bird on the floor and this gentleman turned around to me goes we haven't got all week darling 15 seconds so i missed that one so i said well i'm so sorry i'm looking at the red and the green all the wrong cameras could we try somebody else and then it was gangham style and uh i i just failed miserably it was it was just a mess anyway they called me graciously she called me how do you think you did i said to be honest shit awful sorry for the language But it was bad, very bad. She said, could you change your airline ticket and come in for another audition? Tomorrow.

In a pair of jeans and a blouse, one cameraman and me. And then they showed me something else. And I sat up all night. Mark, of course, is in L.A. Going through things. And I nailed that one. Look at that. And the rest is history.

And then I went back to L.A. I'd done the best that I could do. And I got the call when I was teaching in work. And they said, we'd like to offer you the job. Couldn't believe it. My son was the first person I called. And he could tell by my face, he said, you got that job, didn't you, mom?

And he's been, he dressed me. He gave me advice on how he thought I should dress. And the devil wears Prada. I remember him saying to me, those tailored suits and chic look, you know. Yes. So, and that's how that journey began because of him. Always been there for me in everything.

I didn't realize how integral he was in you getting that. not just getting the role, but styling for the role, everything. Everything. And even after the first series, he said to me, now listen to me, mum, these dancers don't want to be British champions. He said, I switch my TV on to watch you. And even I was scared. He said, you've got those glasses. Your face is too firm. The general public will never warm to you. And I'd signed a two-year contract. And he said, you're going to have to soften the edges. It was an ongoing process because it was years and years of me trying to protect myself.

as a, you know, that little vulnerable child. And I think gradually now I've gotten there. I've learned to talk about your critique with a smile on my face, rather than saying, now dear, Paul, what an earth was that footwork? Paul, what are you doing with your feet? Let's see what we can do. So I think I've generally learned, you know, that they, and I do give good firm feedback, you know, for the first six or seven weeks,

because I'm quite, quite firm but fair and kind. And always, as Mark says, give them hope. Mm, yes. Keep hope alive. Yeah. Keep hope alive. So now that was, your career was blossoming, but the media, from what I understand, was giving you a hard time,

especially in that 2017 year. I wouldn't say it was the media. I think now when I look back, it was the people that were selling their stories. Interesting. My ex-husband sold his story for thousands and thousands. and thousands and thousands and made me out to be this awful person. But back then, nobody knew who this person was, so nobody could really relate. Yes.

So it didn't really have the effect, you know, that it would have, like, today, if you know what I mean. But now with Strickley being so big, like you, I mean, you probably know the number is better than me, but when I was looking at that, like, I'm still blown away at the size of Strickley. We're 54% share of the TV Of everybody who is watching live TV last year We were 53 to 54% of all live TV That the nation loves this show Absolutely

From the grandchildren to the grandparents To everybody in between I'll get in a taxi And the man will say Don't tell anybody, Mrs. Ballas I recognize you from the TV You know, I watch, I watch You know, so it's the nation's

One of the last shows, live shows to still be going on. Bibles, bangles and beads on a Saturday evening when the cold weather's coming. As soon as strictly starts, we know we are the run-up to Christmas. To Christmas.

Yes, it is that season. It's that season, a cold season. We all come in the house. They can get a takeaway or cook their little things and have a glass of wine and get together and talk about or criticize the armchair people

that have watched it, you know, much longer than me, let's say. Yes. But do you feel like, okay, when that season comes, you're excited, but yet you know, here comes the criticism as well. Does that wait on you? And I'll give you my take, because this is actually my season two, Shirley.

Okay. This is when Marriott at First Sight hits the air, right? And what I always feel is I feel excited. Marriott's Sight is on air. We've worked all year for this. This is going to be incredible. But at the same time, I know, okay, here come the critics. Get this guy off TV.

He shouldn't be on. So I know it's coming, not just for me, but for, everyone. Do you feel that same way with Strickley? I used to feel that way. You know, 2017, 18 and 19 with some of the worst years of people doing stick figures with my face on and coffins and die you bitch and some of the worst trolling that I was just learning about. I was not on social media. So 2017 and 18, I'm just learning about this thing and about trolls. I had no idea. That was hard to navigate. And for the thousands and thousands of wonderful compliments that I got, I'd focus on the negative ones. You've got bingo wings. You're wrinkled. You look

too heavy. You've got no business. What do you know? You know. I think that Louise did a very good move when she made me dance the Samba on season 2017 to open the show. And people could see that I could dance. And again, they've had the judges dance now on this opening. number and quite a long number. I think over a minute I get to dance the samba and Motzzi gets to do the rumba and Anton's doing his Foxtrot and Craig's the host and we're going through the 70s, 80s and 90s with all the boys. It's a fantastic opening to new professionals and we're all going to be clamoured back on, you know, we're not in those pods anymore. We're going to be sitting shoulder to shoulder the judges. So I'll be able to touch Craig and Anton and Mottie will be really, really close.

So I think this year is going to prove to be iconic. And of course, who wouldn't get excited about that? Exactly. But I still have my own job. I'm running up to the international championships at the Royal Albert Hall in October, you know. So I have all the competitive couples. And then I'm working hard to get them where they need to go. And then I have the strictly job.

I literally have to switch a button, press a red button to light camera action. And then back to teaching the kids to get into the international, lights camera action. So clearly you love doing strictly. I love dance. I love music. I love watching people come on this show getting all excited. You know, people need to remember I danced with a pro amateur. Yes.

I danced with Korky. I know what it's like to be a professional and have a beginner amateur. Yes. I know what it's like. So when those people walk down the stairs, I go back to my memories when I started with Korky. Yes. So I've been there, I've done that, and I've got the T-shirts. And, of course, I've watched my own son for over 20 years on his show.

So, yeah, I get excited about that and going in on a Saturday. And we don't finish till the week before Christmas this year. So it's a full run. And it's going to be an iconic show. When are you going to do it, by the way? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I tell you what.

You're next. I tell you what, Shirley. I am. You know, I love to do. dance. USAA knows dynamic duos can save the day, like superheroes and sidekicks or auto and home insurance. With USAA, you can bundle your auto and home and save up to 10%. Tap the banner to learn more and get a quote at usaa.com slash bundle.

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Wow. I love to dance, but I haven't danced in so long. You know, it's one of those where I think I let life just take me, you know, but I was... It runs away with you. Before you know it, you'll be my age. You have a beautiful ballroom neck. You've got turned out feet. So if you ever want to do it, just let us.

No, okay. I've turned out. Yes, I've got your little. This, what's he this for? Certainly. It's not like this. That's a good thing. It's a good thing.

A Latin. Yeah, maybe one day, huh? Maybe one day. Maybe one day. Now, with strictly being on air, clearly there's so many incredible celebrities that are on, but do you have that one celebrity you've always wanted to come on? I want Tom Jones to come on.

Where is he? The love of my life or a person from the royal family. You haven't quite got there yet. Yes. But I think sometimes the celebrity comes on and I actually don't know them because, like, people didn't know me. I was at the top of my industry. Nobody knew who I was. So sometimes we all live in bubbles.

You live in your bubble world. I live in my bubble world. Danny Dyer and all these other ones. They all live in their own little bubbles. And then we get the opportunity to go into their different bubbles. And by the first few weeks, you're falling in love with people. Yes. You know, I'm already in love with Little Ellie.

You know, I'm following her all the time. That little girl is a ray of sunshine. Yes. You know, she's just, she's going to bring just such a beauty to that show. So many of them. I mean, we've got such an array this year. It's going to be fantastic. It is a strong, this lineup is incredibly strong.

And I can't even ask you to compare the lineups. Because it's one of those where each year just must be just rewarding to you. Well, who would have thought Bill Bailey would have wanted? He came down in his gold trousers week one And I looked at Motzzi and I went He did his chop chot chot chana Turned to Motsie and said Oh I'm not sure

He went on to win you know why He worked harder than everybody else He studied his craft He knew everything about my career He knew everything about every dance he was doing He was a musician And he just did the right amount of everything And the audience fell in love with him

So I was going to ask you Who was your biggest surprise over the years? Was he your biggest surprise? Bill Bailey was for sure. And then Kelvin Fletcher's stepping in at the last minute for Jamie Lang. He wasn't even supposed to be on the show. He went on to win.

And of course, Giovanni with Rose and of Chris McCauslin last year who would have thought even Chris himself and I'd done work with Chris before. And he thought he was going to last one or two weeks. He went on not only to finish the course but to win because the nation at the end of the day

this show doesn't belong to me or anybody else. It belongs to the nation and they get to vote and in the final they get to pick the winner and I think that's how it should be. Yes, fair enough. Now, in your new book, what I've noticed is that you have talked about your mental health. I think you can tell from today that it's not always been great. If we can talk about your brother, Shirley, what happened with your brother? My brother was either very up or very down. He was not often on the line. You know, that stable line that we can say it was either below it.

I've heard when we started off life before we moved on the housing estate, my brother was a very gentle soul. And I was the one always screaming and crying and wanting this and dancing around. My mother used to put me in the pram, strap me in and put me at the bottom of the yard. Because she said it was upside down doing somersaults in the pram and my brother was really quite a gentle. So then we moved on the housing estate. I can't speak for him because he's since past but certain things went on in his life

that were not great which were communicated many, many years later and I think it just he had to toughen up you know, became the tough guy and they knew him as COLA, K-O-L-A on the housing estate. He kept the drugs off he kept other people safe

he was he had a difficult life I believe as a child, different things that happened to him and because of that he grew up really quite tough and he was quite tough on me he was more like the dad in the household even though there was only 18 months between us but I really think

if he hadn't have been the way he was I wouldn't be sitting here really yeah yeah so I don't think he could control a lot of things that went on in his own life but he certainly controlled a lot that went on in my life and he didn't take Like if I saw him across the field

And he saw me And I'd be hanging with a few of the girls I'd see him leg it And his big bover boots And he'd be legging it And I'd run home And lock myself in the bathroom And he goes

And that's where you'll stay You will not hang out on street corners You will make something of yourself That's what rings in my ears You know Would you say your brother saved you? Yeah I do

Yeah Oh Oh there they go Yeah, he did. He was a great brother. He was. Yeah. Little Mary.

And somehow when he was 43, 44, he got poorly, lived in the North of England, I lived in the South. And I remember my mum going to stay with him. She was with him about six weeks. He seemed very low. He lost a lot of weight. We never really got to the root cause of, I think maybe, if I could just say,

His past was catching up with him maybe. And I just think he just somehow went into a dark hole. The thing is with depression and mental health, I knew nothing about that. I was busy. I had my son. I had my husband. My mother lived with me and somebody else's two children that I raised. So life was busy and I didn't stop to go up there.

My mother did. Again, she wasn't the great communicator. So she didn't say you need to stop everything, you need to come up here, you know. Yes, yes. Yeah, he faded fast and then there was just one time where my son was singing at St. Paul's Church. And I said to my mom and brother, why don't you come up for the weekend? He goes, no, I'm feeling much better. Let mom go.

And she went and he took his own life that weekend. So it was just, it was tragic, it was sudden, it was, you can't even explain it unless you lose somebody that's, you're just like the three musk. As good to you know. So you mentioned that your brother was 44 when he took his life. So a 2023 study found that males aged 45 to 49 were found to have the highest suicide rate. So in the UK, suicide remains the leading cause of death for men under 45. And this is a statistic that until we had started this podcast, I had no.

idea about. I think that's why I took on the charity calm campaign against living miserably. Because even I now, later on in life, I've learned so much about mental health. Back then with David, they gave him this vial of tablets. Oh, just take the tablets. Nobody was there for him. And afterwards when he passed, and I read on the label, it said could excel the feelings of suicide in small print.

But nobody said that when they handed the money. out like sweets. And I know that my mother tried to get him sectioned and she took him to the hospital and then as they were trying to go in, he recognized somebody, but he was that cola from the house and estate. You know, he was so sort of like strong and didn't want anyone to think he was weak and didn't talk about how he was feeling, you know, so. And we didn't know anything about mental health back then. He's certainly not educated on that. But yes, it is the leading cause and I think now with social media and everything it's it's more than ever in young people and whether it's women men or children yes yes yes and and a question that I have this connects to

a friend of mine is so my best friend a few years ago passed away and one thing that has stayed with me and I've noticed this is a recurring theme among all of my friends who have loved ones who not all, but many who have loved ones who have passed away, is this feeling of blame. And when I look at the incident that happened around my best friend, there were decisions that he made, but yet I have remained in the state of blame of myself. And I wonder for you, someone who you had your brother, your brother was your protector, right? Do you carry any blame whatsoever around the passing of your brother? I think my mother and I both, I think the body takes on a role.

And I think I can compartmentalize, but it's stuck. I feel it's still stuck. And every time I do work for calm. And I have spoken to somebody actually in suicide who's talked to me endlessly about not blaming myself. Yes. But if I hadn't have brought my mother down to see my son, if she hadn't have left, we've had counseling on it, but it never goes away. And people are so, you know, oh, we understand how you feel. Well, you know what?

You don't know how I feel because you've never lost somebody in your family that was close to you. It's only years later now that we continually talk about him all the time, you know, with this work that I'm doing. but even my mom's bottled it, you know, inside. Yes. Yeah. And so this is why I asked that is because I thought you must because I do. Yeah. And I think that for, I think there's a lot of similarity probably in our personalities.

And I felt like I'm the one in my family and in my friendship circle that I'm in control. I'm the organizer of this. I'm in control of this. And so my best friend is his past, I'm responsible for this. I shouldn't have allowed that to happen. I should have been able to control this. And I still battle with this, to be honest with you. But the one thing that I always tell myself is, or I ask myself,

did I do the best I could with what I knew at the time? Did I do the best I could with the information I had? I feel like I did. You know, and that gives me a little bit of compassion. I try to not get too emotional. You know, I've noticed this too, Shirley, is that you hold it back. I do. I hold everything in, but what I'm realizing now is it just makes you sick.

So just for us to properly wrap up this moment, there are many people who have a loved one who has passed, and we relive that tape. What are some of the more effective things that you believe you've done over the years to help you to accept it? Because they'll always be with us. But has there been anything that you've done

that's helped you to accept it? I think obviously when he was 44, I was 42. When I turned 50, and of course we were bottling it all in, my mother and I didn't talk about it. And I turned 50 and I had a big party at the Biltmore Hotel in the United States for all my friends. And my son said to me, let's do something for the Suicide Foundation. He said, let's collect money and not take gifts for your birthday.

And that was the first time that I got into the charity work when I turned 50. David would have been 52. And we collected about 60,000, I think. That was our first charity due was it started at my birthday. I think my son felt if I opened up a little bit more, did more for charity work, that perhaps I could get rid of some of these stuck feelings. So I'd say he was the person that was the first one that said, OK, it's okay to talk about Uncle David.

But what I appreciate is that you're talking about it. First time. I didn't have the confidence in the first. I wrote behind the sequence, which was my first autobiography in 2018. And then, oh, should I say that? shouldn't I say that, oh, no, what will people think of me? I'm not really on strictly at the moon. So there was a lot of things that I left out.

But then as I've gained more momentum and more confidence, shall we say, in a certain area in my life, I decided to write this one best foot forward after writing two fiction novels. And I'm able to open up a lot more in this one. Yeah, which we love. We love. Because when you open up, we feel like we can connect with you. My mother just can't believe some of the things I write about in there. But for every story I write, you know, when I'm long gone,

perhaps somebody can identify with something I've been through or has happened to me. They can identify and take something from it. Yes. Strength, maybe. And an area that you write about in the book and you've alluded to in a few moments in this conversation is around body image.

Oh, Lord, yeah. Can we speak about that? I'm still to this day, you know, I go juicing and I just don't want to sit behind a desk where I look at myself. And I think that I'm too heavy or I'm always trying to cover up the top of my arms because people have said that I have loose skin and I've got bingo wing arms. So I like dresses that are cut across the top and I like to be able to see the bones here. and all through my life I had weight issues. Weight, being slim, never came easy for me. And particularly because I had two very small partners,

beautifully shaped partners. And I always felt that I looked bigger than them. This is Sammy and Corkie, both. I didn't have the super six foot tall fella. I had boys that were 5'8, should we say, and slim built. And I did it to myself and a lot of comment. that Nina, better watch what you're eating, you know, need to get on a diet or somebody

would say, your bum looks bigger than his bum, or my mother in her era, they, weight is a big issue. She weighs 112 pounds to this day. If she gains one pound, she takes it off, she doesn't overeat. She eats just what she needs to eat. And she watches everything. So with you watching everything, over the years, what have you done? because I've ran the research. You literally had fat sucked out of arms and legs.

I did. I did that lipolite, which I'm so sorry I did now, because now I can see where they sucked out the muscle and the skin is like crepe paper, like crepe. So in certain angles, not on the outside because I have strong legs, but if I'm bending over to put moisturizer on, I can see still where they took out. I had fat sucked out my arms.

I had fat sucked out my tummy and my bottom. and then I had fat sucked out of here and stuck in my face because somebody said I had a face like skeletor or like one of them dogs that was a really pointed face. So I think, oh, I've got to make my cheeks a bit bigger or things like that. So I've done vampire face lifts. I've had things sucked out, put in. You name it, I've done it.

From yo-yo dieting to starving to only eating porridge for six weeks. To each lady who's listening to their own. whatever makes you feel good about yourself. Because the thing is that mostly women will come on and criticise me, but you don't know me, you don't know anything about my life, which has been absolute turbulence. You don't know what I go home to at night. I don't like looking in mirrors.

Even when I'm teaching every student that you will ever come across, I say to do not look in mirrors. Don't force me to look in a mirror. You must concentrate with your partner. I don't like mirrors. They tell the truth. I don't like them. And I just say to each woman, whatever makes you feel comfortable,

I was a curvy if you're comfortable curvy, if you're comfortable within yourself, good for you. But I have to be still searching for me what's comfortable for me. And I feel better when I'm, you know, a lot thinner than I am now even, let's say. Yeah. So even to this day, this is a battle that you're in, self-image. And six weeks getting ready for Strickley so far, you know, and juicing and eating small meals and taking care of myself, drinking lots of water, trying to be all that I can be. And I sometimes look at something and my friends say to me, oh, have it, you know, don't you think you've deserved it? And then I think, well, what will I look like behind that desk?

I sit next to Anton DeBec, who's very slender. I sit next to Motze, who's a beautiful figure. And then Craig on the end, you know, I don't want to look like the, old-age pensioner with bingo wings. I'm a pensioner. I have a train pass. I have a bus pass. I get free medication.

I'm a pensioner, typically. Yeah. Shirley, do you, truly, do you believe you're beautiful? I think beauty is in the eyes of the beholder, but I wouldn't say I was, I never had the boyfriends when I was at school. I was never the kid that they flocked around.

There was always the pretty ones. I was not that person. and I had thin hair and it was often greasy out to wash it all the time. I had pimples. I, you know, I always had nice ankles. I've got nice ankles and nice feet. I see you. I see it.

They paved away. So I was grateful for my thin leg from here to here as a dancer. It served me well. But I wouldn't look at myself and think, oh my gosh, you know, you're stunning. You know, I think I have very thin hair and a crinkily neck. and they have a mole on my chin. I was once told I'll give you a dollar, go get a rat to chew it off.

And somebody else last year on Strictly said, you should get that mole on your chin removed, which then opens that box of the person who told me to go get it gnawed off by the rat. So people don't realize when they comment to you might be already suffering with things like that, you know, in your head. Yes, yes, and it exacerbates that. It just opens it up again.

You start thinking, Should I? Yeah. What else can I do? But I haven't had a facelift yet. I do have neogen treatments, which is like a treatment that lifts and gives me collagen. So I do do that. And, you know, I have great moisturizer.

I moisturize a lot. I drink a lot of water. I do take care of myself. I try the best that I can. Okay. Okay. For the record, you are stunning. Oh.

For the record. Just putting a period at the end of that. Just for the record. I don't see myself as that, but thank you. So we have to talk about dating before you get out of here. Dating. Look this smile. Look at this smile.

Dating for me, I don't think I was put on planet Earth to have somebody to love me, to nurture me, to cherish me. I think I'm on planet Earth to get the dancers to where they need to be, to take care of my mom, to be there for my son for the years that I missed and my grandson. And it's not I'm playing the violin or feeling sorry for myself. It's just moments when I sit and I think, sometimes you're put on this earth for other things to help other people's children achieve their goals to the couples that come in that are upset or need help or a bit of that person, I feel I am. In the book, in your new book, there's some advice that you give that is along these lines of you're here to help others, right? Shirley Shimmers it's called.

I have it at the end of I give all sorts of little advice at the end. My mother gives the first quote before the chapter and I give the Shirley Shimmers at the end. But this is the letter. Oh, in the letter. The one I write to myself

or the one my mother writes to me. The one that you write to yourself at the very end. That's profound. I wonder if you could read that because this is a letter that you've written to yourself. And is this how?

Why is it, is this a letter to you at 17? Yes. Yes. If I could go back and read that. But I want a bit of it. If we can have a bit of it, please, please. Dear Shirley, I've been thinking about you a lot lately. I might have a few more wrinkles these days and a heart that's been crushed,

more times than I care to tell. But I've also got a truckload of perspective, and there's some things I'd like to share with you. Before we go any further, I want to let you know that you're, an incredibly brave young lady. I know for a fact you'll be rolling your eyes at that moment and wafting me away. Yeah, yeah, yeah, you'll say whatever, whatever.

But it's the absolute truth. You just won't realise or appreciate it until decades later. Upping sticks and moving down to London without any money or prospect of a job in order to pursue a dream and make something of yourself takes good. And if you'd be my daughter, I would have almost certainly tried to talk you out of such a plan. It's hard to read.

It's beautiful there. Yeah. Because if I look back now and I think I would have devised this and I would have told her it's going to be okay. You know, who would know all that pain you're going through? One day you'd have this beautiful son and you'd have a grandson and... still got your mum alive at 88, you know, and some good friends around you really care, not about your celebrity status, but about you, the human being that you are. You know what, Shirley, the last, if you could, I think it's the last paragraph,

almost the last paragraph, is right where it ends is so beautiful. Could you read that? I'll go from, I don't want to spoil the story, but what I will say is that it might not work out in quite the way you envisage right now, and you're in for a few surprises. It will be magical and messy, and my God, you will make mistakes, you're human. So don't beat yourself up about decisions you made with your heart, and which you believed were right at that time. But whatever happens, something beautiful emerges from the chaos,

and you will give birth to a son who will be the light of your life, and grow up to be the very best of men. He will make you prouder than you ever thought possible. There will be a beautiful daughter-in-law too and a grandson who will complete your family. I'll not keep you any longer. No doubt there'll be a dance lesson you've got to dash off to. You'll still be dashing about in your 60s, mine. So I'll leave you to get on with that.

But before I sign off, remember this. You will be underestimated. overlooked and sometimes betrayed, but you will never be broke. Keep swimming, darling. You'll be okay. Swimming upstream. Yeah. Swimming up stream.

Look at that. And that gives me chills to think, your son, your grandchild, right? That would not be here if it weren't for you. Yeah. And that swims. Right. Beautiful. So let me ask you this. This is the last question that everyone gets, and then we'll close it out. And that is, is if you think back throughout your incredible life, who did you have the most memorable conversation with? So who was it with? And what did you learn from that conversation? I would have to say it's my mother again. When she sat me down, when I was first moving away, and she goes, nothing in life is for free, Shirley. Everything comes at a price. work ethic will be key to you getting where you need to go, not your talent,

because I think I was talented, but it wasn't the most gifted, but I certainly worked to the hardest from a young child, always striving to be the best, as she says in her letter. All the advice that I have that I'll carry forward to my grandson and have given that knowledge to my own son are little lines that she writes in the book at the beginning of each chapter. you know, try to keep your gobs shut, Shirley. You know, just be quiet a little bit and listen.

Don't be the one always yapping. Listen to what other people have to say. And another big one was always read the room because life is not always about you. There could be somebody in the room that's been quite jeery one minute and then has gone super quiet. It would be your job to walk over and say, is everything fine?

So reading a room, I got back from my mother. Yeah. Yeah. So. What do you believe? is most misunderstood about you? I think that there are certain people, like one friend wrote to me recently and said that they, you know, you're manipulative. I know you, you're this, you're that, you're this,

which was heartbreaking for me. It was heartbreaking to read. But manipulation doesn't always come in a bad form. You know, sometimes you have to do things in order to get where you need to go. And as long as you don't hurt anybody on that track, it's fine. Because I certainly wouldn't have got where I am if I didn't understand about human nature, male ego, navigation, when things were, when I've gone broke, when I was super well off to where I had nothing to starting again, you know, I've never been fearful of anything. I think people just misunderstand me and see me as this pushy person. You know, they... Can I be pushy? Yes. If I want something, but then things don't land in your lap.

Don't sit around waiting for things to land in your lap. If you want to win with corky ballast, my mum said, you better get your butt back to England. You better do this, you better do that, you better do this. Don't wait for somebody to give it you, because in this world no one gives you anything. and if they do, it's always at a price. Nothing comes for free.

Yes, yes. When I was in high school in the States, we know we call it high school, my last year, my senior year, I will never forget a teacher taught me the word that will stay with me forever. And that is a word called stick to a tibniz. Wow, I haven't heard that one. You personify this. and that is identifying goal and never giving up on it

and never giving up on it and you have done that throughout your entire life your entire life little girl seven years old you know 11 hopping on the bus going here there there there you identified a goal you never gave up on it and never wavered on it just that short spell of time when I moved in with Corky and thought, no, I'm dancing for me.

Six weeks later, I realized. But even now, when I look back, I'm in Kilimanjaro Mountain, going in the jungle with bear grills, you know, surviving that and jumping out of aeroplanes for charity and even things that come my way now, my mother says, oh, don't do that,

I don't want to lose another child. You know, and I think to myself, with one life to live, you know, if you've got a goal, at least try to do those things. I'll be striving forward now. I've been blessed to get to 65 and some people are not that lucky.

And I shall be taking every opportunity that comes along for my charities whether that's jumping out of here or hanging off there or I'm not just going to sit and not do things. Maybe take a few more holidays, maybe. But I think that's the inspiration. I think you're incredibly inspirational

because of that stick-tootiveness. but the one thing that I hope for you more than anything is that you're able to find true happiness. And what is true happiness? Somebody asked me that in an interviewer. Oh, interesting. Yeah, I think true happiness for me is being around my son and my grandson and getting to share with my mother,

but I don't think that personal happiness of where people are ecstatic about, you know, being in love. I don't think I'll ever experience that again in my lifetime. I do have some matchmaking advice. Oh, yeah. Oh, maybe you could matchmate me. Maybe you should go on celebrities go dating. Oh, my gosh. You should come on to celebrate.

Excuse me. You should have men my age. I'm telling you. You should come on to loves to go dating. You know, we're casting for next year. Are you? Yes. Maybe I'm like to pick me out of that person.

Done. But, but okay, so then two last things for me, right? I want to talk about happiness, but I want to talk about the matchmaking. What do you want to hear about first? Matchmaking. Match maker, matchmaker, make me a match. Forget about the happiness. I want the matchmaking.

You know what I think could be effective for you is that there are many, many, many, many. I would argue millions of people who love and adore you. Okay? I'd argue that. You, I think, should give us the responsibility of helping you by being clear, succinct, like clear about your desire to be in a relationship. So what does that look like in practice? What it looks like in practice is Paul,

I would like for you to introduce me to at least one person. But give metrics, give a date. So give the goal, the metric goal. You're the goals, right? The goal and then a date. So Paul, by December 15th, I would like for you to match me. with one person or introduce me to one person by December 15th. I could at least go to lunch with and it could afford their own lunch.

That would be nice. That would be a first. Just serious. But being very, I think, being very clear about what it is that you are seeking, I think is important. That's one. So that's one little matchmaking tip. And that's for everyone, right, to be very clear. secondly on happiness so i've read a lot about happiness a lot and what's interesting is a lot of

us don't realize that half of our happiness comes from our genetics literally our genetic makeup is what allows is roughly 50% of what our happiness is the other 50% is for the most part circumstantial i have a grandchild right brings us that the happiness The other piece to happiness is there's the feeling, and this is what people often talk about, the feeling. Do I feel joy in the moment? And I'm sure every day there's joy. You walk home, you see your mother, there's joy, right? Talk to your son who calls you every day?

Yeah. There's joy. There's that. That is my joy, you know, so when I don't get that little phone call from him or he's busy or something, I feel it. I take it a bit personally, you know, because I don't get that little phone call from him, you know, because I want him to call every day, seven days a week, Saturday, Sundays and holidays. So he does his best to do that. It's a need I feel I need.

Not codependent, but he's there. I'm here. I just, I need, it's something that I need a bit for me. Which is healthy. And when he does, you get that hit of joy, right? That's one part of happiness. That's the feeling. But the other part, so that's the emotion.

The other part of happiness is the cognitive piece. The cognitive piece says, you know what, I am deserving of this. And I think that's the piece that you struggle with. Yeah, because I think everything, because of things I've done in the past, I deserve where I am now. You deserve less. And no, I hope that you at least walk from this conversation saying, you know what, I deserve this joy. So when my son calls me and I am joyful that he's calling me,

I deserve this because of the good that I've placed in this world. When you move to that stage, that's happiness. And that's what I hope for you. Thank you. Well, that sounds fabulous. You're going to find me somebody there. Shall I forget that, just be me. So just leave that to you now.

You press your buttons. You know what I'm going to do? I'm going to ask for you to be on slubs go dating. Oh, my goodness. I'm serious about that. It's had a nice show. I can't really say I've watched it. because I was in a relationship.

So it's, it's, well, let me tell you, this, this year, uh, we've had multiple celebs who are, who found someone. Really? Yeah, they're still with their, their partner. It's, it is. So do you put somebody like me on and then you search for somebody you think will be compatible for me? Exactly.

What we do is you come, you join our matchmaking agency. Oh. It's an agency. It's an agency. It's an agency. And we search throughout the UK to, find you matches and you then date those people lots of people could be 20 people could be 15 people but you'll date them and then eventually you get to a point where you decide if you want to

then continue dating one of those people outside of the show wow yes you'd be perfect for sure or day you'd be perfect you don't have to do all that snugging and stuff do you some people do they don't do they oh dear what I know that everyone, not everyone. But some people do. Wow. Well, I'll have to watch an episode of that. But I'm relying on you with your agency,

even if I don't get on the show that you'll be looking to go, that one would be perfect for Shirley. I give you the number. Yeah. I think you would make for a phenomenal partner and an even better partner once you move to a place where you realize that you deserve all of this goodness that does come to you.

you know you have to realize that you deserve it because you do that's that's fundamental it's very important well i'll take those words on board all right all right done done thank you so much thank you for having me thank you for being here that was one memorable conversation but shirley ballast she's had an incredible life and i think that it is probably to the contrary of the life that many people think she had. You know, to think that she has already given up. Or, you know what, she hasn't given up. She says it, and I think it's, she says it to protect herself.

She says, you know what, I'm not built for love. You know, I'm not here. No one can love me. That is a defense mechanism. she wants to be loved, and I believe she will be loved. I think Shirley needs to give herself grace. She needs to give herself grace. She has achieved some incredible thing.

She's achieved things that most people will not achieve. She's so real. She's unhappy about certain things in her life, but also at the same time, you can see how she feels incredibly blessed with other things in her life. You could see how she's been, and ridiculed and judged and bullied throughout her life,

but yet she has seen some incredible things, lived a lavish lifestyle, et cetera. So she's a great example of a life well lived. Relax and let Ralph's delivery handle your grocery shopping this week. We start with only the freshest items, then review your list and carefully choose each one. Then we pack it all up and deliver it in as little as 30 minutes, So you can feel confident it's what you ordered.

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