We Need To Talk with Paul C. Brunson - Talia Mar’s Relationship With Sidemen’s Miniminter “We Didn’t Sleep Until 8AM On First Date!”

Episode Date: April 1, 2025

This episode of We Need To Talk sees YouTuber and singer Talia Mar share the defining moments that have shaped her life. She opens up about her whirlwind romance with Simon (AKA Sidemen's Miniminter) - from their instant connection on their first date to how they plan to parent their child in the public eye. Talia candidly discusses being diagnosed with autism at 25, the struggles of masking, feeling different, and how it reshaped her understanding of herself. She also opens up about navigating pregnancy with ASD and why so many women remain undiagnosed on the spectrum. Talia reflects on her school bullying experiences and the battle with anorexia that pushed her to her limits. This conversation is about Talia’s journey of self-discovery, embracing her autism, and how her deep connection with Simon helps them navigate the challenges of life together. This episode discusses sensitive topics, including anorexia. If you need support, please find resources below: MIND - https://g2ul0.app.link/w5vNMYwowQb   Beat Eating Disorders - https://g2ul0.app.link/gHK6cjr3ZRb Follow me here: https://www.instagram.com/needtotalk  https://www.tiktok.com/@weneedtotalkpod  Support Talia here: Instagram - https://g2ul0.app.link/QUo550jhbSb TikTok - https://g2ul0.app.link/ZuoqY6lhbSb  (1:51) Talia and Paul's Shared Connection with Sutton   (2:48) Talia's Childhood   (6:12) Talia's Childhood Love of Music   (8:00) Talia's Experience of BRIT School   (8:49) Talia's Experience of Bullying at Her Previous School   (10:45) Talia's Mental Health Struggles at School   (13:57) Talia's First Best Friend at 16   (14:47) Talia's Perspective on Romantic Relationships at 16   (15:37) How Did Talia Believe She Was Going to Be Successful in Music?   (19:23) How Did Talia Know She Was Doing Something Right with Her YouTube Channel?   (20:51) When Was Talia's First Monetisation from YouTube?   (23:30) 'Tough Decisions' EP Release   (25:50) Talia's Fellow BRIT Alumni   (30:45) Talia's Emotional Regulation   (33:59) Tinder Ad   (34:55) How Talia Met Simon Minter   (47:23) What Made Talia Fall in Love with Simon Minter?   (49:26) Talia's First Impressions of the Sidemen   (53:16) The Reaction to Talia and Simon Making Content Together   (56:32) How Did Her Public Relationship with Simon Impact Talia's Work?   (1:00:22) Did Talia Have Any Doubts About Her Engagement to Simon?   (1:01:39) Talia's Autism Diagnosis   (1:13:30) How Was Simon with Talia's Autistic Traits?   (1:14:15) Talia and Simon's Wedding   (1:16:06) Talia's Pregnancy   (1:19:21) How Do Talia and Simon Plan to Manage Having a Baby in the Public Eye?   (1:21:57) How Has Talia Found Being Pregnant?   (1:25:42) What Is Talia Most Excited for Regarding Her Future?   (1:27:22) Talia's Thoughts on Plastic Surgery   (1:30:40) Talia's Struggles with Anorexia   (1:38:16) Most Memorable Conversation   (1:41:40) Paul's Takeaways   Sponsored by: Tinder: https://tinder.com/en-GB  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is Euphoria Calvin Klein, the new elixir collection, featuring three perfum intense scents, inspired by a unique orchid accord, paired with vanilla, each with its own distinct attitude, each with its own universe, bold elixir, sensual, woody, addictive, magnetic elixir, sweet and romantic like a lingering touch, solar elixir, a radiant expression of joy, ultra-concentrated for amplified impact and lasting power. Find your euphoria. Discover the Euphoria Elixir Collection by Calvin Klein. What was it about Simon from the sidemen that led you to truly fall in love with him? I never talk about this kind of thing. We spoke the whole party.

I think we went to sleep at 8 a.m. So then the wedding? Second best day ever. Second best day ever. What is best day ever? Hey guys, it's time. Talia, welcome back to my channel. I wanted to quit my job to do YouTube and music.

All I did was that I didn't eat, I didn't sleep, I didn't speak. My first ever paycheck was like, pounds and I was so excited. But then I was diagnosed with anorexia. And people would say I looked ill. That would really incentivize me. I'd be like, brilliant. That means it's working.

That's when something just clicked. What am I doing? The world now knows you and Simon from the sidemen are together. People are horrible. In my DMs, I hope you die. And how did Simon embrace your autism? It was one of the things he liked. about me. How autism is presented in the media is not how I am. I think people forget that it's a

spectrum. It presents differently in women. You've got the husband, the career, the child. How does it make you feel? All right. Before we dive in, a quick shout out to you for being here. If you're enjoying what we're doing, subscribing is an easy way to get notified when new episodes drop. It's totally free. By hitting that button, you'll be helping us grow this amazing community. Thanks again. Now let's welcome our next guest. Can we talk about where you grew up? Yeah. So where did you grow up?

So I grew up in South London. Okay. But Sutton is more my, I guess, my hometown. We have to stop for a second. I was about to say, I know. Can we stop? Can we give praise to Sutton right now? I was thinking I saw that, because Sutton United, right?

That's right. So rogue. So rogue. I saw that. I was like, there is no way, Sutton of all places. Like, no one knows Sutton. That is wild. Isn't that wild? I invite you down to the mighty Sutton United.

Yeah. So we share this. I'm in Sutton all the time now. That is so rogue. Like, honestly, I don't even guess on how bizarre that is me. Considering you're obviously, you're from America. So it's like, Sutton of all places. It's wild.

That's my background. But can we talk about the household in growing up? So what was love? Oh my gosh. What did that feel like? That is so deep. As a child. I had a very friendship kind of relationship with everyone in my household in a good way where like it was a very open line of communication.

Like I knew what my parents were doing. They knew what I was doing. And I think that to me was what a family unit is, is just like saying it as it is being brutally honest. And just keeping lines of communication open. I don't think, I genuinely, hand on my heart, can't think of a time that I've lied to my parents. It was a nice way of communicating and it made the house feel quite free.

Yes. Can I say, I love that actually. I think one of the biggest myths that parents perpetuate is when there's conflict, to hide that from their child. Yeah. Also, you see things. If they argue, you see it, you hear it. Right.

You can't hide it from a kid. Like, kids know. Kids know. They always know. They always know. They always know. So sometimes talking about it is like, actually, well, we know you know and now you understand it a bit better.

Right. And you get a chance to see how do they deal with the conflict. Yeah. And the fact that they had conflict, but then there's, still together. Yeah. And so it teaches children conflict resolution skills. Yeah. So from that standpoint, it's great. Do you feel like culture played a role? Because I know that you have Italian heritage as well. So did, did. Yes. Oh, yes. Italians, there is no secrets. Like, very loud, very honest. Sometimes to a fault, like my mom's side of the family, my mom's the Italian one,

we are all very, very close. Like my cousin. are more like my sisters. So everyone is very close. Everyone knows everyone's business. So, yeah, it's everyone's open. Okay, okay. And also, I would imagine, so open household, kind of loud household, all right, were your parents' musicians or in music?

My dad was a drummer. Yeah, okay. I mean, my mom can sing. She wasn't necessarily a musician, but, like, we had a karaoke machine. We had, like, we would sing together, and I would sing at bedtime with my dad. Like that was always part of my routine growing up. It was getting to bed, sing a song, go to sleep. All right.

So music was a part of the household. Yeah. Okay. What kind of music was in the household early on? Mostly R&B and hip-hop. That's all my parents listened to really, a little bit of like Motown and soul. Can I just one thing? That's why give it up for Mama Dad.

Yeah. Honestly, I'm so grateful for the music they brought me up on. Motown, R&B. Come on now. They did it right. They did. So the love of music that you had, that came early. Yeah, from the get-go.

From the get-go. From the get-go. I didn't have a choice in that. That was drilled into me from day one. Okay. But now what about music was drilled in? Were you thinking singing, producing, dancing, all the above? From day one, I was always, singing was just something I love doing. Like I don't remember a time where I didn't sing.

Like my mum used to stop me. Like there was this time she said I was walking in one of the supermarkets and I just stopped and I just started singing at people. And she left to be like, hey, people don't, that's not normal. But I'd stand until people stopped and listened to me. I'd be like, you will hear me sing. And I was four. Like, it's enough, Talia.

Wow. But yeah, I think it was singing that started it. And then as I got older, I, well, karaoke machine broke. So I was like, how am I going to sing if I don't play an instrument? So I found an old guitar from Argos in our attic that had three strings. And I sat there and I just looked on YouTube, looked online and I just learned. And all I did was play the guitar until I could play it. So you taught yourself?

Yeah. Yeah. Because I was like, how else am I going to sing? If I don't have music, my karaoke machine is broken. I'm screwed. Right. So that just made sense to me. and then from there yeah I learned guitar and then I picked up the piano at 13 were you already thinking

I want to have a career in music or yes 100% was it I want to have a career or I want to be a star no it was I want to have a career in music my goal was to be an artist and to like tour the world and be able to sing my own songs I've written but I always said if whether it means whether I'm singing on a boat, whether I'm singing at a wedding, whether I'm writing songs for other people. Like, I just want music to be my life and my source of income and, you know, what my career is. And is that what led you to the Brit school? Yeah. Okay.

Yeah. Can you brag on the Brit school a little bit? I'm sure this will be easy for you. But can you brag on the school a little bit? I loved my time at Brit. Like, I remember I begged my mom to go, but I thought it was a paid for. I thought it was a private school. So my mum was like, absolutely not.

Like we cannot afford private school. There's no way. And then she looked into it and she was like, actually, Tarley, you know, it's free. Like, you just have to audition and you just have to get a place. And it was honestly, I mean, my first day there, I got my schedule and it was music recording, performance studies, ethnomusicology. And I was like, oh my God, every lesson is music. And I sat there and I cried.

Like, I just could not believe that it was a real thing. So I have not. nothing but good words to say about that school. It sounds like you didn't feel safe in the school environment. No. Prior. No. What was it about the school environment prior?

I went to a grammar school and all girls' grammar school. So it was very academic, very intelligence focused. Even my music teacher said to me, our first day, he said, obviously none of you are going to actually have a job in music. I was like, how are you starting with this? Like, technically you have a job in music. What do you mean? Like, what?

And I was like, well, this is a good start. But then you also mentioned you were severely bullied. It was quite bad. I mean, my yearbook is defaced with like people wrote things over my face on my own yearbook. I got invited to a party, told it's fancy dress, was not. Wow. Turned up as Lady Gaga. That was fun.

Wow. I always say I was movie bullied. Like, you know what they do in like the American movies where like, People were, like my guitar got broken, where I, like, shoved in school lockers. Like, it was that kind of thing. Why do you think that's the case? I mean, clearly, you know, children are bullied and adults are also bullied for a variety of reasons. What do you think the reasons were that you were bullied?

I think people are, especially kids, they're really unhappy when they don't know what they want to do. and someone else does know what they want to do. I probably came across as having a level of confidence that, one, I didn't have, and two, they definitely didn't have, because everyone knew I wanted to be a singer, I wanted to do this. And I think everyone at school was like, I don't know what I want to do. And it was probably just a way of being like, just shut her up, like, that's enough. Also, I was a little bit weird.

I definitely didn't present myself in the way that everyone else did. I made myself somewhat of an easy target. Okay. How did you present yourself? I struggled with, like, eye contact, talking to people, like, openly. I ticked. I had ticks at school. Like, I had vocal ticks.

And people would be like, why stop doing that? Like, why are you making that noise? I was like, oh, my God, they noticed. Like, in my head, I was like, no one's going to notice. It's under my breath. Like, I did everything I could control it, but I just could not stop. And I think people, yeah, they just thought, oh, she's weird. Okay, so these are the children saying this.

Yeah. Did you have any friends among that social circle? So I had, no. I had like moments where I had friends or I had someone who like would call me their friend and then it would kind of go downhill for various reasons or whatever. And I had a group that was supposed to be my friendship group, but those were the ones that wrote stuff on my. your book so I don't know if I would class them as really good friends yeah so how do you think that

that impacted how you showed up at that time I think I just got better at masking and like fake it to you make it has been my favorite saying phrase quote whatever you want to call it my whole life and the older I get the more I believe it and the more I hone in to that like one saying and I think that's probably what really, really triggered it. So that's why when you just mentioned, you showed up looking like you were confident. Yeah. And like that was an act.

Oh, yeah, yeah, 100%. Yeah. I definitely have confidence in areas. And like I can be really confident. But I think it comes from a place of, well, if I'm not confident, this isn't going to go well. So I'll fake it. And then sometimes it slips into real confidence.

And you have a moment where you're like, okay, I think I've got this. And then you might really. returns planet earth. Okay. So if you were to give 11-year-old Talia advice, who's in that environment that she hates, what advice would you give her?

Do you know what? I don't know if I would. I don't know if I would give her advice. Like, because I think, and that sounds horrible, but I think, one, I wouldn't have listened to it because I was so set on the way that I was doing things. And two, it worked at the time.

and I think I came out pretty unscathed considering. And I think if I said something to her, I might change the course of everything. But you're saying she wasn't fine then? Yeah. I don't know what I would say to her. Sorry. No.

But this is what I find interesting. She wasn't fine then. Yeah. What would have made her fine? People being nicer. I'd speak to them. You speak to them. I'd be like, look, it's enough.

She's having a hard day. Yeah. But I don't know if there's anything I could have said to me that would have made it better. I really don't know. Okay. This is fair. This is fair. So at that time, despite everything that was happening, you still wanted to pursue music.

Yeah. That was your North Star. Oh, 100%. Yeah. And now I could see when you got into the Brits school, how, why you're so euphoric. Oh, my God. It was literally the best day ever. Now it makes sense.

Yeah. Yeah. Now it definitely makes sense. Yeah. So you get into this safe space. where music is a career. Mm-hmm. But then also I would imagine your social circle changes.

Yeah. Okay. How so? So I ended up having a friend who was like my best friend. And that was the first time I'd ever experienced having like a best friend. And it wasn't like a toxic friendship. So it was really nice. It was such a break from what I'd experienced before.

Yes. How old were you when you had your... 16. 16. Yeah. So at 16, you get your first best friend. Yeah. All right.

At 16, had you had any romantic relationships yet? Very, very no. Very no. Very no. I was terrified of that. Very no. Very no. It just didn't make sense to me.

It just didn't make sense. I never wanted to get married. I never wanted to have kids. I hilarious sat here now. But like, it was just never on my radar. Okay. So what was fun for you then at 16? Writing songs.

Producing, that's literally all I did with my spare time. I sat in my room and I learned logic on my computer. I'd learn a new chord. I'd learn a new riff or whatever. And I'd sit and I would play until my hands bled and sing until I fell asleep. Wow. You were focused.

It's all I did. Yeah, you were focused. Very. How did you believe you were going to take this passion for music and create a career out of it? So my first thought was the internet and YouTube. And I didn't know how necessarily at that point because I'd started a channel when I was at my previous school

and got shock horror picked on for it, deleted all my videos because it was just too mortifying. And at that point, I just couldn't hack it. I couldn't hack the voices. but then when I went to Brit I was like actually maybe I can start this up again and you know maybe I've got the confidence here

because everyone here then no one here is going to laugh at me you want to do the same thing right um so the internet was my first thought I was like that's that's going to be the way that I want to do it because I know I want control I know what kind of music I like

I know what kind of music I want to do and if I pursue anything label or that route, I know that I don't have enough of a presence to control anything right now. Okay. So I started uploading to YouTube. This is interesting. So your thought was, I'm going to upload to YouTube and create a presence.

Yeah. So in other words, do I read presence by saying you wanted to create a brand to give you power? Yeah. And I posted non-music content. And then I had a tweet, a viral, when I was... 18, I think, 19. Okay. That was a makeup tweet.

And I thought, this is my inn. I'm going to post makeup tutorials on YouTube. I've got a little bit of traction. I'm just going to run with it. Right, with makeup. Yeah. So your thought was, I'm going to build an audience. I don't know how I'm going to do it, but I'm going to build an audience.

And was the idea, I'm going to build an audience so that I can then do music at a certain point? Or was it, I'm just going to build an audience? It was with music. So I was technically releasing music the whole time. Okay. So my channel was called Tarlimar Music, uploading my makeup tutorials. Okay. And I released my first single at the same time as this tweet kind of going off and like

everything's starting to have a bit of traction. I think this was 2016. And yeah, I thought, okay, this is the path. I was like, I don't know how, but this is the way I'm going to do it and we'll just figure it out. All right. So how methodical were you when you realized that makeup tutorials were getting traction? Very, very thought out. Like, whatever was trending, I was doing Kylie Jenner looks. I was doing whatever. Whoever at the time was big on makeup, that was the look I'd do. And because I was a makeup artist by trade, that was my job as well. So as soon as my interest outside of makeup size change as well, I then started introducing that into my channel, which is where gaming then started coming in. like more blog like content side coming in because I thought people need to get to know me

outside of just a tutorial now at Nisi personality based and like it was so thought out like it makes me sound a little bit crazy but like I was really like focused on like this is the way that I'm going to get my music heard this is this is what I'm going to do yeah you know I I can't say it sounds crazy it sounds strategic very strategic you know we had um Dan TDM and what I will never forget was how strategic he was about I'm going to post at this time every day. And this is the content. And he was relentless with it. So it sounds like it was the same for you. Yeah. How did you know that you were headed in the right direction though on YouTube? To be honest, I didn't. I love analytics. I'm a big fan of like statistics and all the back end of YouTube and all

of that. So any time a video did well, I'd look, you know, where was the spike in retention? Where did the retention drop off? How long does this video been watched for? Okay, then that's how long my video should be. And, you know, videos with, with this in the title do better or this videos with this in the title don't do as well. So maybe I don't phrase it like that. And so I just kind of hope for the best and thought, this is working for now. We'll just go with this. And every now and again, you try something new. If it works, brilliant. Carry on. Okay. And that's how you rolled in games as well. Literally, you were just, I would assume that's something that you did on your own. Yeah. At the time, I had a real issue with feeling nonproductive if I wasn't putting time into

what I thought could be a career. So when I was playing games, I felt awful about it. I felt every time I'd finish playing, I'd be like, oh my God, I've wasted my day. I've wasted my life. And I don't have that opinion anymore. But at that time, it's why I started my gaming channel. Because I thought, well, if I start a gaming channel, then I'm working towards something. And like, I still get to pursue a hobby, but like it could potentially turn into something that is, you know, monetizable, could become a career, can help with music. And then that ended up shifting and being the thing that kind of worked the most. Okay. Interesting. When was your first monetization from YouTube?

Oh, well, I started my channel in 2016. And I was, I think my first ever paycheck was like 70 pounds or something. And I was so excited. I was like, I'm rich. This is the best day ever. And it was maybe, do you know what? Not that long after that. It was a few months in.

And I was like, okay, I'm starting to, there's a bit. I mean, it wasn't money that you could live off. Sure. But at 19, I've got a job. I live at home. 70 quid. Brilliant. Yeah.

So when you got that. that check, are you thinking, all right, I'm now doubling down on this. This is the path. Yeah, it also was my parents. My mom said to me, she was like, you absolutely can do that, but you have to try your absolute hardest. Like, you have to put everything, every fiber being into this if you want to do that. And I'll support you. You don't have to pay rent. You know, you can live here the way that you do now. You don't have to stay in. in your job. And so that's what I did.

How supportive. Oh, honestly, I'm very, very grateful that I've got parents that think like that. I mean, think of, all right, we have to stop for a second. I mean, clearly you've done well. But think about, so this is 20, 2016, 2017. 2016, 2017. Yeah. So at this point, who is the YouTube model?

Like, who is doing very well that you could bring to your parents and say, look at this person, I could do this. Probably Zoella. Okay. She was kind of like, that was kind of that era of who I would watch. Yeah. I mean, you know, I think everybody has like these inflection points in life where you could see it was this moment that changed your life. Yeah.

That moment clearly changed your life. Yeah. Because with their support, you then quit your job. Yeah. Full-time job. Yeah. And then what did you do? I then, I then started uploading more.

And I then was like, okay, I'm going to do my eat. EP I produced it all myself in my little room in our house and I all I did was that I didn't eat, I didn't sleep, I didn't speak, I just sat there and I learned how to do it and I produced the whole thing which now listening back you can very much tell but it was it was having that extra time like not working on the weekends and not having school and like the suddenly I was like I've got all this three times now actually put everything into this career. and this thing I want to do, let's just go. Let's just do it.

She said, tough decisions is the EP. Yeah. Was the idea to try to get a record deal from that? I think probably there was always in the back of my mind at some point I want a record deal. That was the dream. That was the goal. That for every new artist, that is always the goal. Like, oh my God, I want to be signed to a record label and have this team around me.

But I don't remember the active. suit of it. I just remember thinking like I'd come out of a really bad management situation. Tough decisions was about that and I wanted to just put out music that was intrinsically me with no third party. No one mixing, no mastering, no one producing, no one doing the PR, no one doing the music video that wasn't me directing or like I was so hot on the control that I think I was just so focused on that period of time. I didn't even think. think about what might come after it. So you said you had come out of a bad management situation. Yeah. So what was that management situation? So I had management when I was again 17, 18 after

Brit school that just were nasty to me. So horrible. Once we sort of realized we had different opinions on how I wanted my career to look, you know, I've got an email from them where they just ripped into me, literally slated me, everything about me, the way that I spoke, the way that I looked, the music that I made, and essentially tried to just tear me down so that I didn't leave. I was saying, I think I don't want to, you know, be in this situation anymore. And they essentially were like, you're lucky to even have this opportunity because of X, Y, Z. You're not good enough, essentially. Okay.

And the last line of the email was, we're going to have to make some tough decisions, which is where the name comes from. There you go. Yeah. Throw it back. I was like, brilliant, thank you. But I could imagine, though, how tough this moment is. Because here you have a management company.

I think when everyone signs to a management company, they think their life is going to change. Oh, my God, yeah. I was so excited. And that's not happening. Life is not changing. You're at home. Yeah.

And then also with the Brits school that we haven't talked about, is this is an incredible alum that have come out of the Brits school. Truly. And you must be almost doing the. the comparison. Yeah. Right? 100%.

So who's some of the, that alum that came out of the Brit school that you had in your mind as you're trying to develop your career? I mean, I was a big Amy Winehouse fan, and obviously she went there. Adele, Leona Lewis, Jesse Jay. Like, there's some great voices and careers that have come out of that school. And also comparing to everyone else out of the school and kind of, who do you think's going to make it? who do you think it's going to be the next? I remember seeing a girl called Rachel in the year below me

and thinking she's sick, who is now Ray. Oh, wow. And, you know, I went to a show of hers with like 30 people there and thinking like, this girl is unreal. And everyone was whispering about her and you're like, who's whispering about who? Who's going to have the next career? Who's going to be the next this and that?

And like, it was as incredible as it was. There was a lot of comparison, I think, as well. Yeah. And also, I would imagine television, because I think that there was the creation of these pop icons, you know, in the UK at that time. Like we had Cher Lloyd on. Oh, Queen. Yeah.

Oh, really? You looked up to. Oh, my God. Her audition changed my life as a child. That shaped so many girls in the UK that wanted to be singers. It was like, when I auditioned for the X Factor, when I was little thinking I was going to do that, I was like, that's what I want to do. Really? Yeah, 100%.

So getting that letter. Yeah. nasty people. Yeah. Right. And saying we have to make some tough decisions. You just threw that back, created your EP. Mm-hmm.

How well did the EP do? I was shocked. My first single did over a million streams on Spotify. And that was shocking at that time. How did that happen? I don't know. It kind of blew up on SoundCloud a little bit. Okay.

But obviously it was the first thing I'd released. I had no team around me. At this point on YouTube, I think I'd release a single just, before I posted my first video. So I'd started blowing up on Twitter a little bit. Okay. And then posted the single and it just started doing well. And I was like, oh my God, it's got over 100,000 streams.

Like these numbers are ridiculous. Right. I was hoping for a thousand because that's when you can see the number on Spotify. Otherwise it says the less than sign and then a thousand. I was like, I just want to beat that. Yes. Then I've made it. All right.

But for someone who, like yourself, who loves the analytics, you, You must have, you must be able to point to how that single did so well. I can. Do you know what? I genuinely don't know if I can. Really? It was just an accumulation of luck at that point. It was that like I'd started taking off a little bit on Twitter.

It got into the algorithm on SoundCloud. It kind of got into the algorithm on YouTube. And they all just totting. up together. It was just pure luck. Wow. How did that feel, you know, to see that happen? Gassed. So excited. Could not believe it. I was like, I've made it. I'm done. You, bye, everyone. I'm off. Yeah, I was so excited. Oh my gosh. How did your parents feel?

Excited. I think also just like, what is, they didn't get it. They're like, what is going on? I was like, I don't know. Like, I'm starting to get a following on social. This song started to do well. like I don't, there was literally no one single thing that made that moment happen. So it was kind of a bit like a mind field. It was just the algorithms were just working for me at that time. All right. All right. So life feels good.

Hmm. How much money are we making at the time? Oh, like nothing. Very, very not much at all. All right. Yeah. I think overall my whole EP might have brought me in maybe, probably under a thousand pounds. Okay.

Yeah. I did not know how to manage. monetized music properly. I didn't know what I was doing. I don't think I even registered it to like the PRS foundation at that point. My mom was trying to help with all that stuff. She was like, you need to do this and this. She went on a little music course, bless her, to try and help. But it was a minefield. Right. Was she thinking or were you thinking, okay, let's get management, let's do all that? Or no, you're thinking, I'm just going to do this on my own. At this point, I would have loved it, I think. I was not, I was not closed off to the idea because my EP was out. And I was like, I was like, I I've set my tone now. If someone wants to come in and finesse it, fine. They can't change it. It's too late to change it because it's out. But I didn't have an active, like, I must get X, Y, Z on board.

I have to do label. I have to do management. I just, because I'd been scorned a bit for my previous management, I just wanted to see how it went. Okay. All right. It seems like a lot of your work comes with a message. Yeah.

Because not all, I feel like not all artists have a specific message to what you do. But you have a message around your work. Yeah, I feel like as much as I always say, I'm an emotional person and I'm an open book. I'm not. I often don't talk about that kind of thing because I think because I'm emotional. And like, I can't just have a conversation about something upsetting or sad logically and just have that conversation without being emotionally distraught and wrecked. So I just avoid it. I just avoid any conversation like that where I'm going to be super upset.

We're just under the carpet, bye-bye. Yes. So then, okay, let's write a song so that it's out there. And, like, I then have told everyone having a bit of a hard time, but I've done it with, like, a chorus instead of actual words. Yes, you just kind of move on real quick. Yeah. Pass it.

You know, what's interesting is that you've even used that technique with me here. Oh, really? Yes. Yes. Is that whenever there was a topic, so take, for example, the bullying that was happening to you as a young child, immediately what I saw you do is you would smile. Yeah.

And make a joke of it. Yeah. Right. That's me. Yes. So that you could quickly move on and not feel that impending emotion of sadness or fear. Yeah. Right.

So I'm just curious in your day-to-day life, right, even to this day, do you ever just sit in the emotion? No. I absolutely do not do that. Do I? No, not really. I think I might have a moment. Like, it definitely gets to me.

Like, I'm a cryer. The whole internet has seen me cry. Like, it's not that I don't feel it, but I hate that feeling. I mean, not that anyone enjoys it, but like, I hate that feeling so much. I feel like as soon as I have a moment where I feel I can get out of it, I grab it and I run. Right. But what is it that you that you hate about the feeling? You know, so for example, a lot of us feel distraught when we feel fear, right?

And then I say, okay, but if you can get a get out of fear card moment. Yeah. So you grab it and you run. Then that means you never sit in fear. Yeah. And you don't fully know what fear feels like. Yeah. Now, is fear a good thing?

Oftentimes it's bad. Yeah. But many times it's good. Yeah. You can save your life. Yeah. You know, it can save your life, but you have to know how to recognize it? Yeah.

So then how are you then teaching yourself to recognize these emotions? I think I'm not. I think what I do is I go, no one else reacts as heavily as I do, which means I'm overreacting. So as soon as I can stop overreacting, I'm going to do it. Yeah. Yeah. So that's you just telling yourself. Yeah.

Yeah. Or I'll just have a moment where I spiral for a bit And then I get to the end and I go, Woof, that's enough. That's enough. Okay, all right, fair enough. No matter how much you plan, sometimes a date just doesn't go the way you imagined.

Maybe you pick the worst seats at a gig, ones that are so bad you can't even see the stage. Or you thought that live drawing class would be fun until you realize the model was a very nude, very old man. Yeah. awkward. But you know, dates don't have to be perfect to be great. Because if you're with the right person, even the hiccups become part of the story you'll both laugh about later. And that's what Tinder is all about and the sponsor of this podcast. You might think it's just for hookups,

but in fact, on Tinder, a relationship starts every three seconds. So forget about planning the perfect date and just pick the right person to go on it with. It starts with a switch. It starts with a Download Tinder today. All right. Can we talk about a boy? Mm. All right. So you were how old when you met your first boyfriend?

My husband was my first boyfriend, so 20. There you go. Yeah. So at 20, do you feel as if you're behind or you feel like, you know, you're right on time? This is, I've arrived now. Yeah. I'm ready. I guess I did.

feel somewhat behind in the sense that the conversations my friends were having, I would sit and laugh and like, he he, kiki, whatever, not joining in. I have no valid input in this conversation whatsoever. I've got zero experience, nothing. You guys, this sounds like a wonderful time, brilliant. But I still wasn't looking for it. I still had no particular interest. Like, I've been on a few dates here and there. But you, but you know, no boyfriend. No. Right. Because I'm imagining also you've not approached anyone, definitely. No. No.

Hell no. No dating app. No. My absolute. You know, that was like my worst nightmare. Oh my God. Seeking it out? No, chance.

But I would imagine, though, you know, telling you folks have slid into the DMs. Yeah, was not even, like, do you know what? I think I was so not interested, people would pursue, and I wouldn't even know it was happening, until it was to the point where they'd lean in and I'd be like, what is, that is not what I thought this was. Like, I have been bamboozled.

Yeah, no. Okay, no, no. So then what turns it all around when you met Simon? I don't know. But it was just different. Like, I pointed him out to my friends across the festival. Okay. Which I've never done before.

Like, they all looked to me and they were like, all right. Well, okay. Why don't you go talk to him then, babe? Because this is new for you. And I was like, absolutely not. I'm not going to go and speak to a boy. No. Can we even back up a little bit?

Because this has never happened to you. No. So this is big. Yeah. This is big. So you're at a festival. Yeah. You spot him.

Yeah. And when you see, what's the feeling that comes over you when you see him? I just was excited. I was like, he's cute. I like him. I just, I want him. Oh, that one. Yeah, I don't know.

It was just like a, I just had a positive feeling and I was like, I just really want to talk to him. Like, he looks cool. He looks interesting. Like, at that point, didn't know we had any mutual friends.

Okay. And, you know, maybe, because people, at this point, he was a YouTuber, so not on the side of YouTube that I'm on. I was on makeup at this point and he was doing FIFA videos. So like, but maybe I'd seen him, who knows, because it is unusual to just look at someone and have that kind of like, hang on a minute.

Yes. Especially when I'd not experienced it before. But I didn't think I knew who was. I still to this day, I'm adamant. No idea. Okay. Which is fair, because you're right, because you could have seen him in passing. Yeah.

Had the impression. Yeah. So maybe that's what it was. And then later on, maybe an hour later, a friend of my. and came over and went, oh my God, like, hey, like, bumped into us. Let me introduce you to my friends and pointed over to the group. And I was like, you're friends with the boy. You're friends with the boy.

So introduced us. And I just remember thinking, I'm really struggling to make eye contact. I was literally like looking like this. It's like, hey, you're right. And I'm good. How are you? I was like, oh my God. All of the masking suddenly was just like, I had lost any ability to do it.

And yeah, we then spent the rest of the festival together, like, as a group. Can I ask, too, is in those early moments that day, right? How did you, how did, I know I can go back to feelings. I was like, get over the feelings, well, get over the feelings. But how did you feel? Like, what were the emotions? What were the feelings? I was giddy.

I was very, like, like, what I saw all my friends doing when they were talking about all the boys that they were talking about. I was like, oh, I'm doing that thing. I'm doing the like he-he thing. Because like I said, I'd been on dates and like, I'd been on a few dates with the same person sometimes. I'd been on like one, two, three dates. And I literally would come home and be like, mum, I just don't get it.

Why do people do this? Like, this is boring. And she was like, well, you clearly like them because you keep going back. And I'm like, I don't really, to be honest, I'm just, this is what everyone else does. So I'm just doing it. But I'm bored.

And then met Simon had, like, just one conversation, I was like, this is the thing that people talk about, this feeling, this excitement, this like, I want to keep talking, I want to listen, I want to hear what you have to say. Yes. So that was the first time you ever had butterflies. Yeah. Genuinely, though, I'd never had butterflies in my life over anything. Wow. I don't really experience butterflies. It's very rare that I get them.

So then what about the emotion made you want to go forward? because sometimes when people experience these things for the first time, they retreat. Oh no, I was the opposite. I suddenly turned into this like very confident, persistent human being. Okay. I think I was just so shocked that I was capable of feeling this, that I was like, this has to mean something. Good.

And so that night, we all went to the casino together, like, oh, like, laugh, laugh, laugh. went home, nothing happened. And I remember that night, I was like, oh my God, I am going to do everything in my power to find out how to speak to this boy. And so I followed him on Twitter and made like a tweet that was clearly he would know was about him, but no one else would know. Okay. What was the tweet? It was something like, it was no, it was the day after.

It was something like, oh, I was meant to wear these shoes today, but someone last night told me it wasn't a good idea and now I'm regretting it. So he would know, literally no one else in the world would know. Okay. So, all right. Can I get into the mind of Talia? Oh, again, strategic.

Yes, I'm going to say, you were plotting this out. Yeah. So you probably even plotted to follow him at a certain time. Yes. Yeah, 100%. Okay, so what was the right time? So, well, in my head, I was like, well, I know he had like, I don't know, three million followers or something at the time.

I had 100,000. And so I was like, well, if I follow him, he's not going to see it. So I have to wait until like middle of the day when there's like, he's not asleep, followed, tweeted. Immediately. Yeah. So he gets the notification from both. Yeah, yeah. Immediate followback and response.

And I was like, I'm in. I've done it. Oh, man. You're OG out here. Oh, gee. Man. So immediate. So what was the response?

The response was like, he sent it to me in my DMs and was like, oh, we're blaming me for this or something like that. Like he clearly knew the tweet was about him. He took the bait. He did. He took the bait. He did. All right. Yeah. So, okay, so he took the base. So now, what's the next move? So now, this is when I suddenly became this confident human being that I'd never been before. And I essentially was like, I think I was the one that said, like, are you going to take my number? when are we going to go out or something like that? It was like, when are you going to teach me FIFA?

I think I said something like that. Like, so cringe. We also have no interest in learning people whatsoever. And it kind of, we just spoke from every day. From that moment on, we spoke every single day. Every day. Every day. All right.

Yeah. Can I ask this too? This is very important. I'm tracking this. This is an internal study. Yeah. Okay. Your first date was where?

I don't know if you class it as a date. Okay. But we'll go for it. Yeah. First time that you saw each other after the festival. Yeah. So we had a mutual friend's birthday that he was like, why don't you come to ours before? I'll pick you up from the station and we can go together to this party.

Okay. And I was like, okay. Let's do it. Yeah. Do you know what? Part of me thought it was it. Genuinely. What was it?

As in like that I was like, this is, this is, I found him. I'm like, I found him. This is the one. this is the, this is end game. From day one. Because I had no experienced it before. I remember I came home and I said to my mom, I was like, I've met a boy and she, her jaw hit the floor. She literally was like, what have you just said to me?

Like there's no way these words are coming out you out. If you'd have told me to bet one way or the other, I'd have probably bet on it. That you knew. Yeah. He was the word. Yeah. All right. So here's the million pound question.

Yes. All right. How long did you in? anticipate you would be together that day, that first day, versus how long did you end up staying together? Oh, that's a good question. I thought we'd just go to the party and I'd go home. Okay. Because, one, I didn't want to give any impressions that anything was going to happen because I was big, no, no.

But I stayed over. And it wasn't, it wasn't anything like that. I was literally like this next to him. It was fully clothed, like, oh, my God, suratized. I'm like, please. This is not why I'm here. I just don't want to leave. But yeah, we spoke the whole party and then the whole until the next day. Until I think we went to sleep at 8 a.m. So you were with each, so you thought you would be together for a few hours.

Yeah. You were with each other for a day plus. Yeah. All right. Talia, this you, I got scared for a second. I thought you were going to break my study. You have supported a study that I've been doing, just personally. where 100% of couples who have met the person they think is going to be their partner and then end up in a committed relationship, marriage, et cetera,

they completely entirely break the rules on that first day together. Entirely. My wife and I did it too. We thought we'd be together for a few hours. It was a day plus. And the reason why is because of what you said is that I just don't want to leave your side. Yeah. We don't have to do anything.

I just so adore being with you that I don't want to be with anyone else. Cute. I love that. But this is what you're saying? That's so interesting. Yeah. Yeah. That's literally what happened.

I thought it would just be a party. I'll go home. So there you are together. Lay in there like... Literally like a sardine. Terrified. Like just, you know, nothing is happening. Can we explore this a little bit?

Yeah. Because I would imagine you've not had sex. No. Okay. So here you are, first time with a boy you like. Yeah. At his place. Yeah.

In his bed. I know. This is why I kept my clothes on fully. And I don't think I'd told him at this point. Okay. I hadn't said that I was, well, not that I wasn't interested, but I hadn't even alluded to the fact that I might not have had sex before. So I was just laying there literally like, just I want this to be clear on top of the covers. Of course.

On top of the covers. You have to stay on top of the covers. Trousers, long sleeve t-shirt. Like literally, I am making it so clear that nothing is happening. Because I was just not terrified, but I was like, I don't want to leave. He clearly is fine with me staying. Like, it also made sense, like, it was late. I was tired.

Not that we chatted until like 8am, like I said. Yeah. But, yeah, no, I was like absolutely not. I'm not doing that right now. but he respected that yeah yeah yeah it wasn't even a question wasn't even a question all right so what was it about simon in those first few interactions those first few days that led you to truly fall in love with him i never talk about this kind of thing um there was something about the way that he was my little quirks that people would laugh at me for were coming out and i had absolutely

no control about it but I also didn't mind and at no point did he make me feel weird or like I was different and if if he did it was in a good way it was like I love the fact that you do that or like it was the little things that people picked on me for that he was like I think it's funny I like it so would you say that you felt safe with him yeah oh yeah immediately and like especially being 20 him not trying to physically pursue me immediately when he could tell I was a bit closed off was really nice because I'd never experienced that every single boy I'd ever spoke to you was always immediately on that and I was like oh please leave me alone okay okay I think this is very insightful because there's so many people

who wonder am I with a good one right and how do I distinguish if they're if they're a good one or not yeah and from what I hear you saying what Simon did is one is he showed you respect consistently. It wasn't on-off respect. Yeah, no, no. He made you feel safe. Yeah. And he affirmed you. You know, that's that's what I'm here. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, exactly. I think with the respect as well, I could tell it wasn't forced. He wasn't trying to respect me. He just was respecting me. Because I think there is also a difference. Like, sometimes I can see people make, like, fighting their almost like inner demons. Yes. There was none of that. It was just like, okay well if you don't want to do that cool we try to do that like it's not even a second thought

gotcha but was there any concern though because he's a member of the sideman yeah right so at this point he is already relatively well known would you say or well well well very well known so he's very well known yeah massive following yeah right uh is he living because at the sideman we're all living together yes they lived in the house together so they're all living together so you were in the house. Yes. And let me tell you, I had never seen a house of that in my life. What did the house look like? It was a mansion. Like, I mean, you can see it online. Like, they showed their house that they lived in. And I remember he picked me up. We drove in the gate and I went, I was like, how do I act normal? Because I have literally never in my life seen a house in person that looks like this.

Because of the size. Because of the size. I was like, oh, you have a very nice house. So I was like, because I don't want to not say anything, but also I don't want him to be like, geez, like, relax. Like, it's not that deep. So I was just sat there and I was like, oh, my God, I'm in over my head. And so everyone's living in the house. Yeah, four of them, I think. Four of them were living in house. So I'm sure you have to factor this in because he, from what I see from the outside looking in, you tell me if I'm wrong, but is that they all look like they're very close friends.

Yeah. Right. So they're boys. Yeah. Right. So, you know, you are the girl coming in to a crew that's already formed. Yeah. So do you feel like you have to win over the crew as well? Do you know what? A little bit, but not as much as you probably expect. Okay. They're so not laddie. They're so not like boys, boys, like as much as their content, like they love football and they like all these things that maybe typically a very like boy led they're not what i'd call like typical lads so there wasn't that i

didn't feel like i was i had to break through a barrier i didn't feel like i had to like warm my way in or sort of get to this point of being like do they accept me it was more just like i just hope they like me because we're going to be seeing each other a lot well okay um because obviously they live together yeah but but but you wanted to know that you were liked though 100% okay 100% all right at what point did you realize you were liked? I'm still, still hoping. I don't know.

I don't think there was like one moment that stands out where I went, oh my God, we're friends. But like, I think as we, as I'd come over and maybe we'd all chat in the kitchen for a bit, I'd be like, oh, okay. I think I'm, you know, one of them. I think they've accepted me in the group, but they accepted me very quickly. There was, it was very like, no one was standing, because he'd never had a girlfriend. Oh, interesting.

Yeah. Ever. Ever. Oh my goodness. Yeah. I didn't know this. Yeah. Okay.

So to, like, he'd, he'd been seeing girls and whatnot, but he'd never committed and had a, like, girlfriend before. So to them, they were like, there's the girl that you're calling your girlfriend. Okay, we're going to respect this. Yeah. I would imagine this is, this is big. Yeah. At what point do you know you were a boyfriend, girlfriend? So I don't remember the exact conversation of how it came up

but I remember I was getting my hair done and I was saying to the girl doing my hair I said in passing I was like oh my boyfriend and as I said it I went oh my god I've just said that and I haven't even got confirmation am I a psychopath like oh my god and we then had a conversation following that I don't remember what sparked it

But we both said, he was like, I've been calling you my girlfriend to people. And I was like, okay, cool, because I called you my boyfriend to my hair stylist. And I thought it was a bit weird. So glabber on the same page. You're doing content then together. You start doing content? Yeah. Okay.

About six months. Six months. Yeah. But once you start doing that content together, I would imagine the world now knows you two are together. Yeah. What's the reaction? The reaction was much better after admitting it than the six months where we were a secret. where people had kind of figured out in the background of one of his videos

was one of my bags or one background of one of my videos had the same wallpaper as one of his vlogs so we must have been in the same hotel room and like people were horrible at that point when it was a secret. Why? Like 12 year old girl's been like, you've stolen my husband like, I hope you die. I was like, sorry?

You're 12. Why are you speaking like that? Like relax. They were seriously coming after you. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. Like in my DMs on like Tumblr, there was threads about me being this like manny or horrible woman that's come in and is going to ruin Simon and like because he was known as the single one of the group he always did videos about being like

the single one with no girlfriend and like it was like a running joke so like him no longer being the single one was a really big thing I see and you're and I was the one destroying that you're destroying destroying the legacy oh my goodness so once we actually came out and was like oh yeah we are people then are like oh this is no fun anymore we're not detectives okay so they give up but but when it before you had come out with oh yeah they were coming after you brutal i'm curious did publicly did anything ever happen did anyone ever say anything to you on the street at an event no not uh no no no not negatively not like i think of okay people will shout stuff at me they would yeah yeah yeah but not like not like abusive stuff it's more just like like

Like, they'll shout random buzzwords that might catch my, like, they might shout Minimiter's girlfriend or Minimiter or, like, they might say his name just to see if it would spark a reaction with me. Okay. But I've never been hurled abuse on the street. Okay. That I can remember. And I think I'd remember.

All right. All right. It was mainly the keyboard warriors. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Online, horrendous. Person, absolutely fine. Okay. And it was, you said, it was mostly very young girls.

Yeah. very young girls that were like obsessed with him being single and obviously like because they were going to marry him Of course. Obviously. Obviously. Yeah. We all have dreams. We all have dreams. Some of them don't come true. But some of them do. Yeah. Yeah. So because you have a lot more attention is this, I would imagine there's good aspects to this. Yeah. I mean, it definitely helped my career. Like I was, and people love to remind me of that. Oh, do they? Oh, they love it. But. But. But it's true. Like, there is no denying that.

Okay. Like, anytime I achieve anything, it's like, well, would you have got this if you weren't with Simon? Being with him has boosted my online profile. I'm not going to pretend sit here and go, no, being with someone that has 10 million subscribers has done nothing for me on YouTube. I'm not an idiot. Sure. So I'm like, well, I was doing all right. Okay.

You know, I put my work in. But I can't change the fact that, yeah, I am with him. It did help. So it is what it is. Right. How does that then impact your work? Your work? I think rather than impacting my work, I think it impact how I view my work. Any time where I have any glimpse of, I guess, success that's completely outside of the sideman or Simon, I'm like, oh, maybe people will now, like, believe in me.

And then I go on the internet and I'm like, no, no, they don't. Because even if that one thing had nothing to do with them, like when I did a stay the night with Segalah, people will then go, yeah, but would you have been at that point of been able to get into that room if you weren't with him for all those years? And I'm like, well, you're, that's a good point. I don't know. Right. As far as I don't know.

So how does that impact your self-worth? Right. because a lot of us tie our self-worth rightfully or unjustly to the work or what we produce. Yeah. Right. So knowing that this is commentary about you, how does it make you feel? I think it used to really upset me, like really, really upset me. The older I get and the more I realize I'll never know if it's true, the more I'm like, well, it doesn't matter then.

If I'll never know, what's the point? What's the point in dwelling? My life is what it is. I'm happy. And as long as I genuinely like the work that I do, that's now what I put value in because that's kind of the only thing I can put value in now because it's the only thing I know is my true opinion. Like, do I like this?

Yes. Cool. Let's put it out then. Yes. So then this is interesting because I didn't realize that was happening after you both had announced that you were together, boyfriend girlfriend, right? So I would imagine the moment that you announced that you are engaged to be married,

that noise probably increases. Do you know what? I think it had the opposite effect. Did it? Yeah. I think people suddenly realized like, oh, because a lot of people also just call me a gold digger say that I'm just here for like, I just want more clout, I just want more money, I just want the lifestyle or whatever.

I think maybe the perception changed a little bit when we got engaged because they were like, oh, hang on a minute, this is like, you're committing to this. Like, if this is a bit like you're fully committed. So although the noise continues, it gets less, I think. Also, the more people see that, like, I'm not in every sideman video. I don't have sideman in every title that I do. I'm not like, I could be milking it a lot more than I am. trust me on that one.

I can make a lot more money with a lot more of Simon in my thumbnails. And I think the more people get to know me as well online and watch my streams or the more they're like, oh, actually, like, I think she's genuine. Right. I think she does love him.

Right. I find that this, unfortunately, this disproportionately happens to women. Yeah. Right? And also, I would imagine that he wants you to be as, successful as possible.

Yeah. So if that means collaborating more, also it's just your life. Right. Like I would imagine this is a minority of the public that thinks this way, but they're just loud. Yeah. And they're not as loud as they used to be. Okay.

Like they're really not. It's a very small minority now. I'm lucky that it's massively changed. So you two are married, right? Yeah. Is there any hesitation on your part thinking, Oh my God, I'm going to marry my first boyfriend. Do you know what? No.

Okay. Not even a little bit. It's the, I think it was the opposite. I was like, brilliant. One and done. One and done. I don't have to go through the heartbreak that people talk about that seems absolutely brutal.

And I can imagine me brutal because if this ended, my God, it would kill me. But I, no, yeah. I was like, fabulous. This is the dream. Jerry Alliwell actually said to me, We did a show together and she was like, oh, how old are you? Oh, he's practiced, babe. I was like, excuse me?

And a lot of people would say that and be like, oh, he's your first boyfriend. Like you get, you get them out of the way. Like you do all the toxicity, you do all the whatnot. Right. I'm not experiencing any of these things that you guys are talking about. There is no toxicity. We don't, there's no arguments. There's no like big blowouts.

I don't feel unsafe. I was like, I think he's just, I've just lucked out. I've just been, it's been good. Good. Especially with the autism, I don't think I could hack the getting to know new people constantly. Oh, God, no chance. Yeah. And this is exactly what I was going to ask is, at what point do you have the ASD diagnosis? That was only three or four years ago. Yeah, 2021.

Yeah. All right. So this is, if we could spend a good moment in this, because I think, This is one of these areas that even in the research for you coming in, I noticed that there's not a lot out there with regard to women. Yeah. With autism or autistic spectrum disorder. Yeah. Okay. So you were diagnosed at what age with ASD? 24.

At 24. Yeah. What led to you even going in for that diagnosis? Because you had previously been minimal. misdiagnosed with dyslexia. Yeah. So I for a very long time had thought that I was autistic for a very long time. Ever since I learned about it at school, I remember I turned to the person next to me

and we were learning about it and they were telling us, you know, X, Y, Z is a common symptom if you want to call it a symptom, common whatever. And I said to him, I was like, everyone does that. I don't really get it. Like, this is just people. and they looked to me and went, no, they don't. I don't do any of that.

And I remember thinking like, hmm, that's interesting. And I just said, oh, no, I'm joking, obviously. Ha, ha, whatever, move on. And it just from that moment was always a thing in the back of my head of like, every single thing they spoke about there, I massively relate to. But, like, no one has brought this up with me.

No one's ever said it. No one's ever jested about it. Because I was like, maybe 10 at this point. No, like, it's not even been a conversation around me. So I kind of just had that moment, let it go. And then when individual incidents happened throughout the years, that thought would come back and I'd go,

huh, maybe this is the autism thing that I was originally thinking about, presenting itself again. Can you give an example of one of those? Like, I've really, like, growing up, I never wanted to hug my family. I struggled having dirty hands. Like, I didn't want to touch. things I was really really over sensitive to sounds to textures to light to sensations

I wasn't good at making friends I was really bad at eye contact I I just struggled with things that are what people would call typically human traits that everyone else would go that's that's not a hard thing and I'd be like this is debilitating what do you mean um And because of that, fake it till you make it, came in. And I just learned to like, okay, well, I hate hugging people. It sends a shiver into the deepest core of my soul. And it makes you feel blindly uncomfortable. But I would just, I then was like, okay, I'm just going to go into a room and say, I'm a hugger.

I'm a huger. And then I would start the hug. I'd initiate the hug. I'd give the strongest eye contact I possibly could. No matter how horrible it made me feel inside. Because I was like, no one else is struggling with these things. I see. And in doing so, I masked and I covered up all of these little things to new people.

Everyone who knew me could tell. And they were like, hold on it, there's something. Sure. But essentially, what my psychiatrist said was I did CBT on myself. Cognitive behavioral therapy. Yeah. Yeah. So when I got the diagnosis, he was like,

there's obviously no cure, but like there is, you know, therapy and there are treatments that can help combat the issues that you might face. It's like, but it sounds like you've done this your whole life. You've essentially done all these steps and you've trained yourself to be, to cope with it. Why do you think it was that you were not diagnosed with ASD earlier? I think because of the media. I think how autism is. presented in the media is not how I am, the things I'm interested in, the things that I do,

the way I look, the way I talk, like you look at these programs that talk about autism spectrum disorder and they focus on one specific end of the spectrum, which is obviously the more severe end, which, okay, yeah, people might struggle to communicate fully, like they can't, they don't speak until later in life, you know, they have a lot more severe symptoms again, if you want to at that, that I think people forget that it's a spectrum, it presents differently in women, and also you can have different interests, it's not, you don't have to just love trains. People are obsessed with this idea that if you're autistic, you have to love trains or you have to love these really specific niche things when really you just need a special interest,

music. Music, there you go. So with the evidence being there, you said the media is the reason why. So you were, and if you could just unpack that a little bit more, specifically, what was it about, was it because you were so great at basking it? Or was it something else as to why you were not diagnosed? I think it was partly that I was masking it and partly that no one in, like even just little things like the amount of makeup that I wore. Like you never see that presented in autism. Like people, like the people that play someone who has autism in a.

movie. They have one specific rigid image of what that person looks like or how they present. And that I think my parents and the people around me just thought, well, you don't look anything like that. You don't speak like they do. You don't have their interest. So like you can't be on the same spectrum as them. I see. I see. When obviously like it presents itself, one, again, differently women. And two, it's a spectrum. Everyone presents so differently. And I was also hyper-emotional. And I think a lot of people have this idea in their head that people with autism struggle with emotion and don't have any. And it's like, well, actually, I do struggle with emotion.

I have too much. Okay. Okay. So to the point of what you're saying with regard to women, this is the one that blew me away in the research for you coming in is 80% of females with autism are undiagnosed as of age 18. Yeah. 80%. That's crazy. Isn't it?

That's wild. And to your point is, a component of this seems to be masking is one component. Another component is the thought is that if you have autism, it doesn't look like her. It looks like him. Right. But then also in the research, what I found is that it looks as if a lot of the studies that determine whether or not someone has autism are predominantly based on boys and med. And women were not incorporated into ASD studies until recently.

Yeah, that's wild. It makes no sense. But I feel like that's a common theme in medicine. Yeah. Yeah. How do you think your life would have changed for you if you had received a diagnosis earlier? I think I'd have just had that like eureka moment I guess earlier and feeling like a weight lifted and an understanding because the reason I went to get my diagnosis was because I started therapy and I remember I was talking to her about an instance of me being in a club and having a panic attack and leaving and she kept asking me she was like you know what does that bring up for you why why do you think you felt that?

And I was like, I just was over-stimulated. She was like, no, but what do you think that means? And I was like, I don't think it means anything. I think I have autism and I was just overstimulated. She would not drop it. And I was like, I think I can't just go around saying I've got autism. I'm autistic if I don't have a diagnosis. So I was like, I'm going to go and get this confirmed or not confirmed

and I'll find out something else about myself. Because otherwise, I'm just not going to be able to explain myself. and sometimes I need to just be able to be like, oh, that's this, by the way. We can move on from that. Like, it's a mute point. So I think my life would have been just a little bit more. I'd have felt a little bit better about things.

Yes. I'd have forgiven myself a little bit easier. Yeah. Yeah, that's so hard on yourself. Yeah. How did your parents react once you told them about it? They were just like, yeah, makes sense. I mean, they had to fill out a bunch of forms for it about my childhood.

And my mum and I were talking about the other day and she was like, when you were a kid, I didn't think it. But now I look back and I'm like, how? How did I miss that? How did I not think that? Because all the things that you used to do as a child that other children weren't doing, she was like, I just put down to you just being, you know, extremely interested in rules. And you just loved justice.

You just loved following the rules. And like, you were just a really good kid. And it's like, no, my brain is just a bit different. Your brain is a bit different. Yeah. When I look at the ASD, I think this is how it's listed in the DSM, right, is that it is a disability. That's wild to me. And that, you know, it's interesting because I think that when I, what I, everyone I know with ASD, right, including family members, I see certain traits and skills as they're, they, they.

they have super human ability to concentrate and focus and achieve things that I don't think I can't. Yeah, I get that. Yeah. I definitely think, again, with it being a spectrum, obviously, there's certain points it gets to where life is a lot harder. Like, and things will be harder for people with it, especially at the higher end of the spectrum. But I think even with that, there's moments of, like, I guess, moments of beauty and moments of like, hang on a minute, like the way your brain processes that, it's actually very interesting. And that's got you to a better conclusion than it would have

got someone else. Okay. All right. It's fair. It's fair. So for everyone now who is in a space, especially for young girls, who feels if they have some of these traits of these characteristics that you were talking about are not diagnosed, your thought is as a parent as that, as that young individual to go after the diagnosis. I definitely think like it's so hard in the UK like the NHS is so backed up when it comes to anything neurodivergency, mental health, anything like that. It can take years to get a diagnosis, years to even get that first consultation. But I think there is no harm in trying because it can just give you answers and like

it can explain things. And also I think as a parent it can be overwhelming when you're trying to do something with a child that has ASD and they're not responding how everyone else's children responding. It's like, why is that happening and you start to blame yourself? You start to like, what am I doing wrong as a parent? It's like, you're not doing anything wrong.

You should need you something slightly differently. Yes, yes. All right, fair enough. And how did you feel Simon embraced your ASD? I think because like what I said before with me not masking from day one, it was one of the things he liked about me because he had to. If he didn't, he'd have known immediately and been like,

I don't like these traits, this isn't going to work, cool, I'm out. So it's the little things, like, I think he just finds little things funny. And it's like, oh, ha ha, that's endearing, that's cute, whatever, that's just Talia. And he's good at knowing when to calm me down or when to be like, okay, let's take a moment. Let's just like settle for a second. and went to be like, all right, it's enough. Okay. So he'd read me like a book.

All right. This is beautiful. Yeah, this is beautiful. And to your point, the best relationships are the least dramatic. Yeah. Oh, yeah. And I'm dramatic. So I need someone who's not to just.

Yeah, just chill. Take it down and just chill. Yeah. So then the wedding. Yeah. Must have been spectacular. Oh my God. Best day ever.

Best day. Literally best day ever. Everyone, family, friends, everyone. Yeah. Incredible. Yeah, so good. All the side men are there. Yeah.

All right. So it must have been, any stunts, anything at the wedding or no? I mean, yeah, JJ performed one of his songs as part of his speech. Okay. Jamie performed. Just took the mic off of the band and just started rapping. All right. Brilliant.

It was very funny. You could see the divide of age in our wedding party when JJ took the mic for his speech. started rapping one of his songs because half of us were like, yeah, rapping along. And the other half were like, what is happening? This is a wedding. Who gave you the mic? Oh, my gosh. Yeah.

So a lot of performers. Yeah. Did you perform? So, no. But I was given the mic at one point because I had Seagala DJ. And when he played our song, someone gave me the mic. I didn't really sing because I was like, the worst. thing I could do is sing at my own wedding.

Like, I do not want to be that person. That's not why I'm here. There's enough attention on me. I don't need to make it even more about me. So I was like, ha, ha, ha, ha, stay the night. Okay, please sit my girlfriend. But no, I did not perform. All right, all right, cool.

But it was best day ever. Best day ever. All right. Second best day ever. Second best day ever. What is best day ever? Finding out I'm pregnant. So first, can I say,

officially, congratulations on this. it is for many of us the best day ever. Okay, good. That's what I need here. Yes. Did you, and if this is cross the line, Oh, no, no cross the line. Is this a plot and plan pregnancy?

Yes. This is. Yeah. So this is big. Yeah. Because you've spent your entire life not wanting to have a child. Yeah. At what point did you change your mind on the child?

So, I've done some inner thinking about this recently. And I actually think I probably always wanted children. But I think it was my career that made me think I couldn't. So I told myself I didn't want them. And then I met Simon. We obviously started dating, whatever. And as we kind of got more serious, I was like, hang on a minute. Like, I think I really do want children. And also growing up, I loved children. Like, I was always the one to like, please let me hold your baby like at our wedding I spent the whole wedding with the kids like the speeches I've got a child on my lap the entire time she's never related to me um like I love kids I always have and I think when we sort of got more serious yeah I suddenly was like hang on a minute

like why did I think I didn't want children I definitely do and then it became like a burning desire interesting you so you flipped into flipped I must have I must have children children don't get me wrong. I definitely towed the line sometimes. I'd be like, whoa, maybe not. And in fact, when we had the first conversation, like this first serious conversation about children, I used to joke about it all the time when we were engaged. I was like, oh, when we have kids, and he'd be like, all right, chill out. And I'd be like, no, when we have kids, it would great. And then one day I said it and he went, yeah, I think it is time. And I literally went, uh, no, too real. I left the room. I was like,

like too real this isn't fun anymore i'm not ready i don't want to do it yet um and he flipped this which on me deciding to become apparent is is a big thing yeah right fear isn't it interesting how immediately you become fearful of everything yeah what what did you become fearful of just like projecting any insecurities i have on someone else that i'm meant to protect that's scary to me. Yes. Yes. Did Simon express any fears? No. None. And I keep saying, it'd be all good. I keep freaking out and he's like, it's fine. I'm like, no, join me. I freak out. I'm willing to bet that his freak out, it will become. Oh, yeah. It will happen. I'm waiting. It will happen the moment that your child is born. Yeah, good. And and. I need it. Yeah. That's when realities is truly going to set it. Yeah. At least that's what happens. happened for me. Yeah. Is I was, you know, happy go lucky, fun jokes until that moment where I saw that little boy. Yeah. And I thought, oh my God, this is real. It's real. Yeah. It's real.

How do you plan to manage the fact that, I mean, your public figure, your husband's a public figure. Yeah. There's going to be a lot of interest in your child. How do you plan to manage that? So we're not, we're not going to be showing our child online. At all? No. For how many years? until they're at an age where they can, you know, their peers have social media. And like if that's seven, then okay, maybe not. But like, you know, when you're a teenager and all your friends have Instagram, I'm not going to say you can't have Instagram because of who we are because that's not fair. But as long as there's a conversation that goes along with it of like, things are different for you,

potentially than it might be for your friends. Let's talk about that. Wow. But yeah, we won't be posting like pictures of them as a baby or vlogs of them. Significant. Yeah. What's the reason for that? I think one, they're not, they don't get to choose whether that many people see them.

They might look back and wish that their childhood was private. You don't know when you're crossing the line sometimes with what's being posted. Are you posting a tantrum? Are you posting, you know, something that maybe they don't want people to see? And also with AI, it's terrifying what people can do with images of children. And I don't want any part of that. Isn't it fascinating? You know, your child will have parents who are predominantly are known for their social media.

Yeah. Right. And you will opt them out of the thing that creates really the livelihood. Yeah. Yeah. Because of the dangers. Yeah. Because you know the dangers.

Yeah. So AI is a large driver of the danger behind this. Yeah, massively. I've seen a lot with what people will do with images. And also, like, if they go to their, if they find out what school they go to, they'll know what they look like. They know what to look for.

They know who to look for. And things like that is really, there's just a lot more that goes into it and a lot more to think about. Yes. And it's no disrespect to people that do because, like, I love watching family channels. It's literally my favorite content to,

You didn't see you, ironically. Like, there's so many that I watch and I love it and I love watching children grow up and it's so nice. But I think I just don't have it in me to partake. Yeah, which is fair. And I think that's the part of, that's parenting, right? Yeah. Is making the tough decisions, but you're making it for the benefit of your child. Yeah.

Yeah. So pregnancy, you know, some people say it's the best time ever. Some people say it's the worst time ever. Where do you fall? It's awful. and like I am so grateful that I have been able to be pregnant and I'm so grateful that I'm able to carry a child and I know that so many women would kill to be in the position I'm in

but I think I would be doing other women who also struggle a disservice to say that I'm having a good time. It's been really rough. What have the challenge has been, you know, in being forthcoming about it? I've had a lot of sickness. like a lot of really bad sickness. I've also got my bones in general are just pretty weak from sports I used to do when I was younger.

So I'm in a lot of pain all the time. And also just, you know, people say like these are your last nine months before your life changes. I'm like, my life changed the moment that that test changed. Like my whole life is different. I have to think about there's, I'm two people right now. It's not just me anymore. my life has already changed. And don't get me wrong,

I know it's going to change tenfold again. Yes. But my life is already different. And I think, I spoke to my obstetrician about it and I was like, I'm struggling. Like, I'm having a rough time.

She was like, oh, everyone says that. She was like, no one ever talks about it. She was like, but everyone says this. And I was like, what do you mean everyone says this? I've got Lindsay over here saying like, oh, it's magical. At the best time ever, Sarah's in the corner going, oh, brilliant.

What do you mean? What are you getting the eye? I'm not getting like, I have had, it's been tough. Yeah. And like there are moments of like magic, but it's so easy to forget what you get out of it, especially we don't have a child. Like I don't know what it's like to have children. I can imagine the love and I can imagine, oh, it's the most, I've been told it's this

incredible thing, but I know you don't know what it's like until you experience it. So it's like holding on to this imaginary thought that like I have no idea what it's going to be Yeah. Do you think it is important to normalize this conversation around pregnancy is hard? Yes. I've had quite a lot of stick online for saying it's hard. I've had a lot of DMs that have been like, I'm not going to lie. Like, I'm getting a bit bored of you complaining now. I'm like, all right. Block me. Click off. Right. I'm so sorry that on my page, I've explained my experience of something. Like, I think also because a lot of people struggle to full pregnant or like there's a lot of people who want to be in that position that sometimes you then

feel guilty for almost taking it for granted like I am so grateful but it's also so hard and those two things can go together absolutely you know what I find so interesting about this conversation is I often only see presentation of pregnancy should be joyous yeah it should be a time of And I remember watching my wife be pregnant twice. And I saw a lot of what you are describing. Yeah. And I think what's, to me, what seems to be important is a normalizing of this conversation so that you don't feel alone in it. Yeah. You don't feel like is something wrong with me? Because I don't feel good about what's happening. So I think it is actually a good thing. I think you were doing a service to many people by talking. talking openly about how you feel. If it means that someone else who's also feeling the same way as me,

who I know is a lot of people, can sit there and go, oh, thank God, it's not just me. I'm not, all right, it's worth it. Right, right. It is. It is. When you think about this next chapter of your life, what are you most excited about in terms of the future? I find it really hard to, like, think about things like that. But the thing I'm most excited about over the next few years

is teaching someone to exist, which sounds wild. But like, that's a big responsibility. And I'm quite excited about having that responsibility. I mean, that's very profound. Oh, good. Yeah, teaching someone how to exist. Well, yeah.

I don't know. I think that's kind of, that's cool. Yeah, it's very cool. That's very cool. How much does music and new music fall into that for you? I think since finding out I'm pregnant, I've realised I care even less about what people think because my perspective has already shifted.

So I'm excited to put that into my music and the stuff I have coming out is so different to anything I've put out and I'm excited to speak about things that maybe I've not spoken about before. And also represent being a mum and still doing things and still feeling like I can be cool if I want to be. I don't have to just give up. But if I adjust to me, mum, that is also fine. And if I want to stop do music, then I will.

But I don't think that's going to happen because music is my love. Yeah, I was going to say, that's the one thing that you will never stop. Yeah, I won't. You will never stop that. Just a heads up, this next section includes sensitive topics, including eating disorders. All right. Last topic. This is a real quick one, but plastic surgery.

Oh, love a conversation about this. I'm an open book. Okay, because, you know, it's interesting because as you describe your, you know, how you grew up, your characteristics, your behavior. Yep. I wouldn't say that that is someone who would be atypical of then going out and getting plastic surgery. Yeah. So at what point in your life do you get plastic surgery and how many procedures have you had? So I had a nose job when I was 18, 19, 19 young.

I was very young and I'd wanted one from quite a young age. Like, I definitely grew up in an environment where like friends, family, whoever it was that was around me. Like, I mean, it was the 90s, the naughties, like, looks were something that was quite spoken about and like looked down on. And it didn't come from bullying. Like, no one ever picked on me for my nose. No one ever picked on, picked apart my looks at school. Like, that wasn't what I was bullied for. I was bullied my personality.

So it came from within. I think it came from looking at other people and going, hang on a minute, like that. I don't look like that. My mum had one when she was like in her 30. So I saw that as well. She's always been very open as well and been like if not pro plastic surgery, but very like if you want to do something,

I'll support it as long as you're doing it safely and as long as you're researching and doing things, you know, well. And yeah, so I turned 18, 19, had a nose job, hated it. Hated it. Hated it. At the beginning, I was like, I was just happy it wasn't my original nose. And then as years went on, I started actually getting comments online as my profile group, your nose is X, Y, Z, what is that nose on her?

And I was like, I've already changed it once. What do you mean? But I agreed with the. comments, I'd already thought these things about my nose. And so I ended up getting another one when I was five years ago, 2020. Okay. And not that I want to convince people to do it because I absolutely do not. But very happy with the decision I made.

Okay. Was so much more confident. I could not believe. I looked in the mirror and I remember I was like, oh my God, this is the first time I've looked in the mirror and not cried in a very long time. So you met Simon 2017? Yeah. Yeah. So when you met him, you met him with the nose you didn't like.

Yeah. Right. But you still have the confidence, et cetera. Yeah. Right. But then also, too, you said that it was the first time. I know you said it kind of jokingly, but it was the first time that you looked yourself without crying. Yeah.

So how did you feel like you looked, say 2017 or 2018 or 2019? How did you look? I just hated it. Like, when I recorded, I'd make sure my camera wasn't facing me so I couldn't see it. Because if I caught myself in the camera, it would set me into a spiral. I'd be devastated. I think it all, it all also stemmed around the time that I struggled with my eating. And I think it all just spiraled into one.

And I was just a mess. But, hey-ho. Yeah, but yeah, you're here. Yeah. But during that time, You said you struggled with your eating. How did you struggle with your eating? Well, so in 2020, I was diagnosed with anorexia.

So I was struggling and my eating in the sense that I wasn't. I'd always struggled with it from about age 15, I think. And then lockdown hit. No one was around to stop me. I lived alone. Everyone's talking about getting fit, talking about losing weight in lockdown because all they can do is work out.

And I was like, this is perfect. no one can police what I'm eating I just won't eat hmm not good were you living alone at that point yeah yeah so in lockdown I was by myself for how many months it was that you went last to people

okay that must have been terrible for you yeah I wouldn't recommend was not a good time you know with eating disorders what we're doing is we're trying to manage emotion yeah and feeling through the control of food yeah So what was the feeling or emotion you think you were trying to manage?

I think it was just the lack of control. Like I had no control of my life anymore because of lockdown. So the one thing I could control was my food. And I can pinpoint every single time it got bad. Something in my life I lost control over. So either I left my management and suddenly my career was up in arms, stopped eating. And up until then, I'd kind of always just teeter on the edge of like, being unwell but like getting away with it and then lockdown hitting no one's around me

there was no one to stop me no one to so so you could just i could just go straight into it and like excuse the pun but like feed into the obsession sure um of looking a certain way and like not having like no one no one's gonna know and in fact when i ended up getting help it was still lockdown and And I should have been hospitalized, but because it was lockdown and it was online, I just lied about my weight. I just added on. And I was like, they'll never know. They don't need to hospitalise me. Because no one can physically come and check on me.

Can you check? Yeah. Did you proactively go after the help? Yeah. Okay. How did you know you needed to? So one of the things that used to, like, really incentivize me was when people would say, I looked ill. I'd be like, brilliant. That means it's working. That means I'm losing weight. That

means I'm skinny enough. That means I'm, I'm on my way to be where I want to be. And people would say, like, horrible comments. But there was just this one day where I was reading the comments on a video and something just clicked. Like, I was like, what am I doing? I think because I'd managed to pull myself out every single other time. I'd never gotten this bad. I was like, what on earth am I doing? I'm reading these comments and they're, they're fueling me and they're awful.

They're saying I look ill like I'm going to die. They're talking about the fact that I look like I'm literally like a walking skeleton. And I'm like, and I'm enjoying that. And I start, I don't know, I just had a moment of self-reflection that I'm really lucky to have had because a lot of people can't get that. And even if they have that, they can't get to the point of being able to get the help. Yes. and so I contacted a doctor or a psychiatrist

I contacted someone and I said I was like I know I need I need help like something has gone really wrong here I don't think I can do it by myself but like I don't want to be admitted I don't know what to do and they suggested that I move in with Simon at the time and he was living with JJ and so I moved in and yeah I didn't really tell him

I was going to say he must not have known no at the time I kind of like ha ha passing comment not been eating but like made a joke out of it made it seem not that serious so he in my head wouldn't run away

but also said we can't have scales in the house like we still don't have scales in the house just things like that wow it sounds like that saved you. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

It could have, it was, it was bad. So then once you moved in, how did you actually become healthier? What did you do specifically? So I had a program set up for me with like a nutritionist, psychiatrist, like the work together and stuff and like anorexia specialist. And I just, I just stuck to it. Like it was really hard. And I still have moments now, even with certain foods or like at that time, like, I'd be sat sobbing, like, trying to eat.

Like, because it was just in my head the hardest thing in the world. Like, I was like, how am I meant to do this? Like, and it was a piece of toast. But I'd be like, I've, I've gone months and months with basically no food. So, like, now I'm eating stuff with butter on it. I'm like, oh, my God. They're called fear foods and you have to basically, like, fight through. your fear foods is like one of the ways of like trying to train your brain to be back to okay

with eating. Okay. Okay. Yeah. You know, this is something that probably will not be a surprise to you, but this is the research. Over 1.25 million people in the UK are affected by an eating disorder. Yeah.

It's so sad. Yeah. GP records showed a sharp rise in teenage girls in the UK developing eating disorders during the COVID pandemic. There you go. Look at that. Yeah. It makes sense.

Why does that make sense to you? Because the main trigger for an eating disorder is a lack of control in somewhere in your life. And I've always been a control freak. And it's always been someone who's cared about my appearance in probably more than maybe most. So those two things go hand in hand. It's a recipe for disaster. And obviously, yeah, in lockdown, everyone lost control. you know people were losing their jobs

you're not allowed to go outside things that are basic rights that we've had our whole life suddenly were stripped from us so to lose that control a lot of people would just turn to like right what in my house and in my life can I control to feel some sense of normalcy food it's just like a but some people

will take it too far yeah you know thank you for sharing that no it's okay I mean yeah I think it's one of those where that that'll help so many people and also I think what it does is it tells a story of how incredible partnership is. Yeah. You know, because I think sometimes we look at partnership and we just look at it as it's, it's just something that you do in life.

I each have a partner. Yeah. You just get married. But no, there's actual reasons behind our survivability based on partnership. Yeah. Our partner literally co-regulates us, reduces stress for us, right? Helps us to thrive and survive. We talked about a lot.

I think there's a stone unturned. No stone unturned. Literally. Okay. Yeah. All right. So then you have had some incredible conversations throughout your life. When you think back to the one that is the most memorable, who was it with?

And what did you learn? Oh, my goodness. So when I... was little, my mom showed me this quote and it's something that has stuck with me my entire life. And it's, if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it's stupid. And I don't remember why. I don't remember what the reason was that she said it. I don't remember what the reason was that she brought it up or if she'd seen it somewhere and she just thought I'd like it but that changed the chemistry in my brain forever

more yes and it's what I have lived my whole life by and at any moment I feel like okay I'm not good at this or I'm not good at this it's like okay but am I just a fish trying to climb a tree put me in some water and I'll live my best life yes um probably that yes you know um I think you've arrived in the water love that swimming away yeah No, you are. Because one thing I did not pick up, you know, I feel like online, you're very present online, but you're also fairly elusive online because I try to do as much research as possible. And I didn't get this story online.

Yeah. I look through lots of read or watched interviews and I didn't get this story. And I think that the perception that's presented is that, oh, yeah, you know, I'm out. here living life, right? But what I've realized through this conversation is that, yeah, you're out here living life, but you've lived life with a lot of pain and you've been able to manage that pain. And I think what's so important for people to see and I mean, why I cannot wait for people to listen or watch this conversation is they have an opportunity to see how those two can coexist. Yeah. Yeah. And I think in my everyday life, I preach that.

But it's something that maybe doesn't make it online because people just, I don't know, people takes about context and it's quite a scary thing to just talk about. It is, it is. But I thank you for talking about it. Because truly what people will see is, well, you know what? Because actually what you're living is life. Yeah. We have incredible pain in our life. We have incredible joy in our life.

and the key is, okay, how do we manage through that pain? That's why you're going to be a great mom. Oh, thanks. Seriously. I'll give it a go. That's why you're going to be a great mom. Thanks. Because in those moments where it counts, and this is your entire life,

in the moment where it counts, you step up. Try. I remember that. You remember that one. Yeah. Yeah, you do. What you know. Thank you.

I'm done. Thank you. Her public persona, is different than what we saw here. It's like a rose doesn't come without thorns. It is this entire journey of, I feel, fear, but I'm going to step into that fear. She's incredibly resilient.

And I think that's a word that we often throw around, I think, a little bit too often, is the ability to not just stand up in the face of a fear or a pain, but to be able to persevere through that pain and through that fear. And that's what she continues to do to this day. Going into the research for this conversation, seeing that the vast majority of girls with ASD are undiagnosed up through 18 was a complete shock. And to learn that most of the research is based on boys and men was not surprising,

but highly disappointing. And this is clearly an area where we need to shine a light on. To have had the ASD diagnosis would have meant that she would have been more empowered as a younger girl. And who knows how that would have changed her life. We can't take a blanket disability label

to neurodivergence, I think. And I think it's troubling when I hear that. I think ultimately I see that they are each other's safe space. And I think this is a commonality that you see among successful couples. And the reason why this is so important is because you need to have that safety to be vulnerable. You need the vulnerability in order to connect emotionally. And you need the emotional connection in order to have any level of satisfaction in your relationship.

And all of that requires safety. And that's what they gave to each other.