We Need To Talk with Paul C. Brunson - The Conversations That Saved Our Lives | We’re Talking Suicide Prevention

Episode Date: September 11, 2025

TW: This episode discusses suicide and mental health in detail. In this week's episode for World Suicide Prevention Day, we’ve brought together some of the most powerful moments from past conversations on We Need To Talk - featuring Jordan Stephens, Ella Morgan, and DanTDM - who’ve all spoken bravely about their mental health journeys. These are not just stories of pain, but of survival. Of reaching out. Of finding light in the darkest moments. By revisiting their words, we hope to break the silence around suicide and remind anyone struggling: you are not alone. Together, they unpack the silence around suicide and why honest conversations matter more than ever (00:00) Intro (01:27) Jordan's Experience of Suicide and Suicidal Ideation (07:28) Jordan's 'Break-Up' with His Mother (14:06) Ella's Experience of Suicidal Ideation at 16 (17:00) Ella Coming Out as Trans to Her Mum (20:12) Dan TDM's Experience Suicidal Ideation (22:00) Telling His Wife How He Felt (23:45) How Therapy Helped Dan (27:46) Love Better Tour Ad Please take care watching. If you or someone you know needs support, please see support charities below: Samaritans - https://g2ul0.app.link/1CRhatR7mPb  CALM - https://g2ul0.app.link/YvmzhM17mPb  MIND - https://g2ul0.app.link/d72yzu7jJOb  Get Your Tickets to the Love Better Tour: https://bit.ly/lovebetter-YT Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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The Hilton sale is on now. Book on Hilton.com or the Hilton app and save up to 20% to get the stay you expected. When you want savings, not surprises. It matters where you stay. Hilton, for the stay. Hi, everyone. A quick heads-up. In this episode, we'll be talking in-depth about mental health and suicide. Following World Suicide Prevention Day, I wanted to pause and reflect on some of the conversations we've had on We Need to Talk around mental health. It feels important to honor those moments by continuing the conversation, raising awareness, and focusing on suicide prevention. Jordan Stevens, Ella Morgan, and Dan TDM share their experiences, the challenges they faced, and how they found help. These aren't just stories about pain.

They're stories about survival, hope, and the small conversations that can change everything. Suicide is the biggest killer of people under 30, and that's why we can't afford to stay silent. If you're struggling, please reach out to a friend, a family member, or one of the support charities we've included in the episode description. It's okay not to be okay. It's okay to have conversations that feel uncomfortable. So let's get into it. Today, we're talking suicide prevention. At this point, though, you are famous.

Yeah. You are popular. Yeah. Right. You have your in and out of relationships at this point. Yeah. You know, romantic relationships. Yeah, yeah.

All sorts of chaos. Right. You are abusing drugs about your life. Did you feel alone? I mean, yeah, there was, there was why. point where it's difficult you might have actually you might actually found the point where at what boundary that i think because it involves someone else but there was a there was also a point where i was very close to a suicide as well and the suicide implicated people around me

just just because of the support network that this person had had um i'm trying to find polite ways of public addressing it and i was literally on on tour when that happened and I kind of came off tour to deal with the repercussions of it. And that I was, everything in and around that led to not only me having to engage with like the least mature and most confused parts of me, but also this suddenly this desperation for me to have, have someone, you know, like by that point I was probably making the most money in my family and was siphoning that out. But I don't think I was quite,

I definitely wasn't emotionally stable enough to be like the anchor of my immediate family. And yet I found myself in a space where I was trying to be. Interesting. And that felt, that felt really alone. Stop me where you want me to. But the topic of suicide is one that's come up in several of the conversations we've had.

And we need to talk. And in an area that I think has been very helpful for the audience has been when that ideation happens, those thoughts arise of taking your life. How do you move to a space where you don't? Right. How do you stop? How do you prevent yourself? How did you? How did I?

Yeah. So I definitely said that in that moment, I, The last thing I could ever imagine was myself. That was also an added pressure, you know, at that moment of learning this. Because it was in proximity to that having happened, actually, to a full extent, having lost someone to suicide. I couldn't even dream about that myself. Later on, when I've gone through this particular heartbreak that has basically torn all the plasters off whatever I was put over this abandonment wound. There was a point.

there was a point in that situation where I was like, oh man, I just just is like this is this pain is unbelievable. I just did no one had I didn't know it was possible to feel so alone and so like alone not necessarily alone actually I had a lot of people around me but just so profoundly damaged. You know like I'll go to sleep and not want to wake up. I just I did I preferred being in my dreams even if they were nice because I'd wake up and just have this crushing feeling of anxiety. straight away that I was in this situation I had no control over I felt rejected I felt role and I was wasn't quite stable enough to avoid so I mean to be fair I went sober and maintained that

for a period of time but I was smoking a lot of cigarettes and and so yeah yeah I thought crosses your mind there was one point where I was too scared to go to get the tube because I just thought you know like who know like we all have that imp of the perverse you know that what if I did just thinking that one moment the moment of madness

you know in front of a fucking train it feels so achievable so I you know but I was fortunate enough to have a friend and I expressed that with

I said look I know this sounds really mental bro but like I feel like I can't even get the fucking tube home like I just come and stay with you for a few days and he did and I love them with my heart

and I was lucky with that but the real wake-up call for me and again I don't speak about of everyone a lot of people of different feelings around suicide but

the real wake-up call for me was when my mum called me and I was on the way to the studio and I think I even recorded a song that explicitly said that I wanted to kill myself not like again as you know there's different stages I was certainly one two I wasn't anything more I wasn't planning things I wasn't the scary stage where I'm actually happy because I've made a decision and so my mom

rung me and I was like yeah you know I'm just feeling you know sometimes I feel like I just don't want to be here and bro like makes you feel sad now but like hearing my mom, it's a response to that. Knowing that, like, I put my mom in a position where she could have to think about losing her son while she was alive, like that. For me, that was, that ended it for me.

In terms of that being how I was going to deal with, the pain I was in, one of the most beautiful pieces of, and such, like, most articulate, simple, concise ways of explaining how I feel about suicide now, were actually expressed by Dave. You know the rapper Dave? Yeah. He has an album called Psycho Drama.

And there's a lyric which is, if you're thinking about doing it, suicide doesn't stop the pain, you're only moving it, lives that you're ruining. And, you know, I remember hearing it. And you wrote it only like 21 or something. And I was just like,

fucking, that's it. For me, if I'm ever down, like, I can't do that to people around me. And I'm now in a place where I can believe that people love me. For a long time, I couldn't believe that. But I believe that people love me. And for that reason, I will live for them more than anything.

That's powerful. And I appreciate you sharing that. You know, it's interesting seeing that you were at a place where financially you were probably, you were at your top, right? Yeah. You had paid the debts for your mother. So in essence, you had moved her out. And if you go back to Brighton, all you wanted was to move her out of that situation.

Right. So you wanted to move her out. But then here you are at a place where you're considering taking your life. So you had made her happy, but it was that idea of removing yourself how that would have crushed her. Yeah. I would have crushed her happiness and how that that in part saved you. But then also talking to your friend. You know, and I think that's a part that we all need to, we all need to, I think, think, think, think, about embodying and that is is that when these ideas begin to percolate to talk about it to someone that we love and trust because just that can reduce the ideation of suicide 100% you know and and studies support that 100% but but to be clear actually I think it's an important point I hadn't made my mom happy by helping her with their debts or helping go with money I hadn't actually the biggest shift was eventually after that point of engagement

where I was like fuck that was you know hardcore that I'd said that my next process and most important process in the relationship between me and my mom was I actually kind of broke up with my mom I wanted to get to this I wanted to get to this so let's we're there we're already there

we're already there so you broke up with your mother Yes. This confuses me. Yeah. So help me understand. It's complex with moms and sons, I think, because there are, again, a lot of social,

there are loads of social politics to support the idea that it's a massive green flag for moms and sons to have a good relationship, you know, to love your mom, to be openly, outwardly loving of your mom is a good thing. But I've come to understand, of course, that love is a good thing if it's not codependent, you know. And naturally, again, to know, my mom or dad's, you know, I might have inherited some tendencies towards codependency anyway,

but a single child and a single mother for being that, for that being most of the situation, avoiding codependency is not impossible unless you have an emotionally secure parent. And so, you know, I was realizing that my mom's decisions would still upset me, you know, or I'd be nervous on the count of my mom, she would be a lover's on account of me.

Her critique of my work would be really important to me. My mom had to like it. Otherwise, I didn't like it. Interesting. You know, there was this in mesh. And I had just given her everything I could. Like, every time I got something, money, I'd give it to her. Like, it got to the point where I tried to give her a flat.

I tried to give her like a whole property that I had. And which is a dream, by the way. Yeah. For many, especially boys who don't come from much, money, boys and girls, anyone. But unfortunately, it came at the expense of me having a house. So I had given my mom this place.

I then had a fucking, my life just blew up. And then suddenly I didn't have anywhere to go. I barely had anywhere to go. And that for me was quite a literal representation of me giving so much that I'm actually leaving myself with not even a place to repair. What good am I going to be? Right. If I'm like that.

So I had to stand up and go, I can't keep doing this. I can't. And by the way, from my mom, my therapist would be like Jordan you're protecting her but this is a public podcast my my mom isn't encouraging this my mom's not going where's my flat right right where's my money no never in life this is me being like I want to do this for you I want to do this for you I want to do this for you but and in doing so obviously a part of codependency is allowing for your boundaries to have been crossed the person who is crossing your boundaries sometimes it isn't even aware that they're they're doing that

yes so so so yeah so got to the point where you know she had this dominion in my life life. And so I was like, no, I need my flat. I need my place. I need my space. And I need us to just step away for a moment. And this is when I was most heartbroken. So for her, of course, it's complex on a few levels, yes, because she wants to be there to support me. In me, my personal experience from that point onwards, the relationship to my mum and I has been incredible. And there were moments after that where I pushed back on her expectation of me be that like to even to stay at my house unannounced to turn up at my house or something like that which should again to many people this is very usual but specific to me and it hurt doing that because I felt like it came at the

cost of my mum's that momentarily the cost of my mom's emotion but since Paul right now me and my mom best ever best ever in life like our relationship same in my dad and it's both come from me sitting down, I mean, with my mom, I wrote her letter with my dad, I sat down in front of him and had it out, just, and had it out and just was like, this is, I don't like this, this is a good for me. I want us to be separate. And then we can talk again as adults. To some people, they're going to receive that and that will be gospel. Yeah. To them, that's going to be refreshing to hear. And it's going to be a new idea, you know, this idea of breaking up. Because in essence, you didn't, break up with her. What you did is you initiated boundaries on your relationship, you know, and I think it's very important for us all to include boundaries in any relationship that we have. Platonic, professional, definitely romantic. And I think also the term boundaries end up getting conflated with other things because boundaries, in essence, are not what you're putting around yourself. Boundaries are what you put around your entire relationship and say in order for me to be

able to sustain this relationship with you, this is what I'm going to need. And if this happens, then I can show up as my best self. Yeah. Exactly. And that's exactly what you did. Set the parameters where you want to on this. But then at 16, roughly 16, things take another turn for you. Um, it's really hard to talk about. But sadly, like statistically, most trans people do attempt to end their lives, either before transition or during or after. So my story is just one of so many.

Um, I suppressed, like, being Ella, like I somehow managed to do day-to-day life as ever. so where I used to live there was a big motorway bridge it's called the Avermouth Bridge and there was a side alley like walk path pathway to get to the other side I just felt so low that I was like I keep

you know every day having to wake up and put on this front and be this person that I'm not and lie to everyone and when can I be me when is my life going to change and I just that day I it all just got too much and I thought I don't see the light at the end of the tunnel. And I started to walk up towards the bridge. And I got to the middle and I just remember

that I could see actually my family home where I lived in the distance. And I just kept thinking like I'm a mess. Like I'm a freak. Like I will never be able to be the person that I am now sat with you. I don't think I've got the courage or the guts. to physically sit my parents down and say to them, I'm a girl and I'm going to transition. So for me, the easy way out was to end my life.

So I sat there and I just sat on the floor and I was just going to and fro of, okay, well, I'm not going to ever be able to be me. I'm going to let my parents down because I'd had their love so unconditionally up until that point that that's all I'd ever know, like all I'd ever know was their unconditional love. And I just thought I'd rather end my life now knowing that that's all I've ever had than to tell them about what I was feeling and how I felt. And I just remember thinking like that I didn't

want to let them down. And so, right, this is it. I'm going to end my life and then they can meet their happy family without me and I won't break their hearts and they will never need to know the reason that I was feeling this way or why I did it you know it can be a secret that dies with me

and I must have been sat there for a good hour and I thought I can't do this to them like it would absolutely break the hearts if I really do this and at least they deserve is for me to be open and honest with them. And whether they accept me or not,

it was like a turning moment. I thought, I don't want to leave them. I'd miss them too much and I love them. And I was like, I need to get the strength now to face the music. And I was like, I would actually rather be here as Ella than to die as Evan and die as a boy and never have got to have lived the life that I'm living now.

So sometimes it's like moments like this where I pinch myself. and I just remember thinking, no, I need to get up now and go home and tell my family how I'm actually feeling. If they support me, they support me. If they don't, they don't. So, and I've kept all of this in for years, so I knew it was going to be a bit of a shock to them. You're right, because 11 is where you discovered.

So you're 16 now, yeah? So for five years, you've kept this secret. And it was also not just them, but it was also me, like, I wanted to be Ella, like I wanted to live, get to live this life. And, like, I know what it's like to live. date a boy and be beautiful and look in the mirror and feel happy with how I looked and just be the girl that I've always known I am like I wanted to experience that so it was my mum I had the

conversation with and she I sat on my bed this is the same day no no it must have been maybe a few weeks later because I still had it in my head that they were probably going to disown me and so I kept thinking I need to drive I need to learn I had this fixation with learning to drive so I could get away and escape. Yes. And I remember the day, I was in my bedroom and she came and sat on my bed.

And as a teenager, she'd said to me privately, like, are you, do you mind me asking, after my brother came out, it was gay, do you mind me asking, are you gay? And I was like, no, no, I'm not. And it always stayed with me for a while

because I was like, she knows, she's on something, she knows something. But I was like, no, she won't know. She said, Do you want to be a girl? And I said, no, mum, I am a girl. And I said, you won't be able to understand this or believe this now. And I know I'm sat here in boy form.

But I have always been a girl. Like, I always have felt like I am ally inside. And no, I want to be able to just blossom and be this butterfly, which is why I've got the butterfly on me, tattooed. So she took it better than I thought. And I slowly started telling friends them. Wishing you could be there live for the big game. Soaking up the atmosphere of the crowd.

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What point does it feel like it's a, it's a breaking point? My breaking point was Samarans had this app thing where you could like journal and I wrote down how I felt that day and it wasn't good. Like, I was just like, I went out. Like, I don't want to be here anymore. To type him out. You went out of life. Yeah.

I was done. Like, I was that low. That was done. But writing it out is very different to thinking it. From my perspective, I, like, seeing myself, I almost felt like I was watching myself from a third person, typing myself out and I almost saw it from like an

outside perspective I was like no this is what are you doing I went to my GP they prescribed me antidepressants straight away so I went on those it felt like a quicker less involved fix like I just take these it's done as fixed

easy yeah and it's not it's more of like a just delayed it a bit so from that point I then talked to my wife and then she was like, try therapy. She found the therapist, like she made it so easy for me to then go. To go.

So you didn't get to the point where you wrote it out? I did. Yeah, I physically wrote it out. But then reading it back almost felt like I was reading someone else's typing. Like it felt really out of body. Like it was strange. Because I was thinking it the whole time. And then physically reading it.

back was different for some reason. Being blunt, it felt like I want to do this that would be my ideal like solution to this this brain space I'm in. But having my son was way more powerful. Like that was, I could not

leave him. That's, that's yeah. You think your son is what kept you live? Yeah. Yep. Yep. See? Yeah. Pother. of the power of father. Yeah, it changes your chemistry.

Yeah, it does. It does. You just, so, wow, so you go to the Samaritans app. Yeah, they'd done, I wasn't confident enough to ring, because I think at the time they only had something to ring, but because it was locked down, they were having way more, like an influx of people ringing, I think. And then they set up this app, and I was like, oh, I'll check it out.

And it was just like a diary, like a journaling thing. And I was like, I don't even know, well, maybe try it. I was just like, oh, I'll just type and see what happens. And then even now, I feel like if I'm struggling with anything, I just write it. And then it's on the page. It's almost felt like it's left my body and my brain. So it definitely helps. Journal is so powerful.

So powerful. But then you make another life-saving decision, and you tell your wife. Yeah. Has that conversation happen? I mean, we know each other on such a deep level that she knew, kind of anyway. Not to that kind of extent, but she knew something was the right because my whole demeanors changed. So the conversation felt quite easy because it was almost like I'd already told her. And then immediately, what does she do?

She, I think it was just like, you need to go therapy. You need external help for this. I was pretty... I didn't believe in therapy. I was like, how can this work? I don't understand. How can someone that knows zero about you help you with your hardest problems?

Like, I didn't quite, I just didn't understand how it would work. You were very pessimistic. Pessimistic, like a non-believer. Like, I just was like, nah, it's not going to work. There's no way. It doesn't make sense. So being able to talk about it,

in particular to your wife, that immediately brought you some relief. Yeah, yeah, definitely. I would imagine also the process of now engaging with a therapist, messaging them, knowing that there was some, there was a potential resolution, even though you're pessimistic.

Yeah. But there's potentially, there's something on the horizon. Yeah, that was, yeah, that was a drive. I was like, okay, let's get to, it's like something to look forward to or worst. Okay. So all of these pieces are just layering on top of each other.

Yeah. So you see the therapist? Yeah. You don't want to. I don't want to, no. But you see the therapist? sounds like the therapist also was life-saving for you. Yeah, she was amazing.

Yeah. I feel like she gave me the manual to my brain, like the instruction manual to my brain of how it works and how you end up in a certain space. Like even now, I'm not actively having therapy now, but I still use everything I've learned to decipher my own thoughts sometimes. Be like, oh, that's why I feel that way, because of this.

Like, I always say it feels like, before I started therapy, it felt like I was on a road and then you have all these, like a spaghetti junction in front of you that's also very foggy. So you choose one at random and hopefully you don't go backwards

or downwards. But with therapy, the fog is lifted and all the roads are straight and you can see where the destination is. That's how it feels, I think. What type of, do you know the type of therapy that you went to? CVT.

Okay, yeah. cognitive behavioral therapy yeah which which is incredibly helpful yeah incredibly helpful you know in almost reprogramming you know yeah you know the the the mind like my whole thing was like the divorce was the main my main catalyst for my most of my mental health issues because I then prepare for the worst at all times right and then that then crept into being a parent as well and then but weight me down way heavier than it did before. So I think therapy, you think you know the reason for the way you're feeling,

but then actually it helps with all aspects of your life rather than what you're just feeling at the moment. So it makes you just make you discover things about yourself. You're like, as it clicks, it literally feels like puzzle pieces clicking in your brain. You're like, I could almost hear the click when I, when we were talking and then it just fit, like everything just fit and made sense. And that's how it does untangle everything. Yes.

you can't really explain that feeling unless you done therapy, I think. So that's why I try to get across to people if they're struggling. Yeah. I think that's an amazing analogy of what it is. It's like it all clicks. Yeah. You know, it's like a puzzle almost. Exactly.

Yeah. The pieces are all there, but not in place. Boom. And it's in place. If today's episode has resonated with you, consider checking in on someone. The people around you ask them, how are you really even the smallest conversation can make a difference we've included links to support charities in the episode description and you can find the full conversations with dan t dm elam la morgan and jordan

stevens on the show page don't forget to follow the show and give us a rating i'll see you next week let me ask you something when was the last time you really thought about how you love not who but how. Most of us don't. We're moving fast, doing life, hoping love just shows up and sticks. But that's not how real connection works. So I've created something different. It's called love better and I'm taking it on tour, a live experience for anyone who wants to build deeper, more meaningful connection. We'll unpack the lessons from the couples you've seen me coach. I'll share stories I've never told on camera and you'll walk away with tools. you could use right away.

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