We Need To Talk with Paul C. Brunson - The Man Behind Attachment Styles Explains Secure Love

Episode Date: April 23, 2026

What does secure love actually look like? Dr Amir Levine explores what it really means to build a relationship that feels safe, flexible and deeply connected. Amir goes beyond the labels of anxious, avoidant and secure to explain how security is created in everyday relationships. In the final part of this three-part series, Amir challenges one of the most debated ideas in modern relationships, shares why even secure people can shift depending on who they’re with, and reveals how a secure partner can help reshape the way we see the world. We’re Talking Attachment Styles with Dr Amir Levine (Part Three) Follow me here: ⁠⁠https://www.instagram.com/needtotalk⁠⁠   ⁠⁠https://www.tiktok.com/@weneedtotalkpod⁠⁠  Take the We Need To Talk quiz to discover your attachment style and get personalised episode recommendations: ⁠⁠https://linkly.link/2g3t4⁠⁠ Support Amir here: Website: ⁠⁠https://linkly.link/2g2xk⁠⁠ My Attachment Topography Calculator: ⁠⁠https://linkly.link/2g2xl⁠⁠ Secure at Waterstones https://linkly.link/2g8vz Enter 'Secure26' for 25% off (00:00) Intro (01:43) Dr Amir Levine Breaks Down Why Relationships Don’t Need Boundaries (04:50) Can One Shift From a Secure Attachment to an Unsecure One? (07:08) Dr Amir Levine Describes His Childhood Environment (09:39) Saily Ad (10:48) How Did Dr Amir Levine's Upbringing Affect the Man He Is Today? (11:48) What Is Dr Amir's Attachment Style to the Different People in His Life? (14:12) What Is the Best Strategy as a Parent to Raise a Secure Child? (16:37) Most Memorable Conversation (18:33) Paul’s Takeaways Sponsored by: Saily - Download from the app store and use code WNTT at checkout for 15% off. For more details: https://saily.com/wntt ⛵ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Dr. Amir Levine, your book Secure, you have said something that is going to drive relationship experts mad. I can think about a couple of things. Yeah, that relationships don't need. Oh, that one. Yes, I love that one. That's big. From an attachment perspective, I find that... Hey there, before we begin the episode, I just want to say, thank you for choosing we need to talk. Doing this podcast is one of the greatest joys of my life.

And I want to continue to share it with you. So hit follow and the bell icon. It takes just a second and it helps us to continue to grow this podcast. So now you said it's a secure love is an open love, right? And I think this does lead to, I think, one of the hottest takes in the book. You have said something that is going to drive relationship experts mad in the book, right? And you know what this is? What is it?

This is? I can think about a couple of things. Yeah, well, actually, which, well, let me, I'll go to my mind. Okay, okay. That relationships don't need boundaries. Oh, that one, yes, I love that one. That's big. Okay, okay, yeah, no.

And I always, and I even write in the book that I'm sort of like, that sometimes I like to rattle people, so I will say because that's how we learn and you make this state. And as a scientist, I've always learned to challenge my thinking. And by all means, I'm always, I'm open to change my mind and to give me sort of information so I'm really open. But the way that I see things now is that as an attachment person coming from an attachment perspective, I find that it's like a couple's dance. You know, the walls or the tango where you take a step forward, they take a step back. there's like this

it sort of moves seamlessly and if it won't, yeah, you may step one another and then you correct and you sort of correct your steps and you learn how to do it better. But it's different than saying no, I'm drawing a line in the sand here and you can cross it. It creates a disconnect

in their relationship. I mean, you can say, hey, this is really important for me. Like, how can you make it work? It's not like usually boundaries like, okay, this is what I need. And if you can meet that need, too bad, but that leaves the other person on the outside. Right.

But because if you, the way that you phrased it to me sounded like an ultimatum. If you can't meet this need, I'm done or there's this consequence versus this is my standard. This is what I require. So for example, let's say we're in a marriage. We need to have date night every week in order for me to feel connected to you. Why is that a boundary? I don't see that as a boundary.

That's like an ask. It's a beautiful ask. I mean, I guess it depends. From a secure point of view, it's a beautiful. If your avoidance, it's like, what? What do you ask me? That's true. And anxious, that could be a boundary.

But let me give you an example. So here's a good example of what, like, oh, we need to have a date night. But someone avoidance, it's like, I don't know. But then if you're like from a secure environment, you know, you know, like she doesn't really like to sit across from me and he feels too intense. Maybe we can go, maybe, and that's actually been shown that maybe we can go on a hike together. Who says a date has to be in a restaurant, like in a noisy environment? Right.

Maybe that's how they can feel closer. And it's like, oh, yeah, I love to go on a walk like even more often. Yes. So that's the difference. It's like, you said, like, no, I need to have this where the solution comes from trying to work with both of your biology to find what actually is the most effective rather than this is what I need. I need to sort of come to this restaurant and sit across for me and talk to me. Okay, I like it. I like it.

So just to be clear, are you saying that if you are secure as an adult, but you are in a close relationship with someone who's anxious, someone who's not secure, and your environment, perhaps, is not secure, that you could actually shift from being secure to... Oh, 100%. Okay. Yes, of course. And you can also shift to being not secure, but secures are amazing.

It's like in helping people shift their... Even in little things, even if you're... They even will help you become more secure. I'll give you an example. It was just something that happened a few weeks ago. We were going to cross the street. And then the woman who was driving,

instead of stopping, she sped up. And I was like, turn to her like, you see what she did? She's like, I mean, like, she's just like, she's so impolite. She didn't stop. And my partner said, well, actually, I was thinking about it. Like, she sped up so we can cross the street faster. So all of a sudden, he gave me like a different sort of way of looking at it. Yes.

And you know, since then? And he actually said something, oh, wow, you really shifted your way. I said, okay, you know what? I'm going to adopt this. And then whenever, like, I don't drive much, but. Whenever I see people do something like budding in or in traffic, I say, well, they made a mistake. Or they just like, yeah, they didn't really see what's coming. And sort of like, actually I found that I give them more the benefit of the doubt.

And he's helped. And he said, oh, wow, it's been a real shift. So I really try. I, like, whatever I write there, I also use myself to help myself because it's really more about, again, it's about the exploratory drive. Why would I spend my energy, like getting upset about someone else if I can sit in a little bit different way? Yes. And it frees up more energy for me to think, to write, to do all the things that I want to do. Yes.

And sort of create those better cinies. Yes, yes. Now, talking about yourself, can we talk about yourself? Yes, of course. And your upbringing and how you were able to, I think, kind of become this phenomenal person that sits in front of me today. I find the research that I've done on you as a little boy in that environment to be just fascinating. So could you describe how you grew up and how you believe that has impacted who you are today? So I had a very, it's like I feel, again, it was like I feel very fortunate that I had a very unusual upbringing in the sense that my mom had a very progressive,

ideas about education. And so I basically, she also grew up in that same kind of like educational. The school that she went to, they never actually believed in grades. And they really put more emphasis on creativity and sort of thinking original thoughts. They didn't give them, they wouldn't even give them. And they said they didn't want to get an A plus or they always wanted to get, this is original. This is really thought provoking. That was the, the, the, the grade. that they were like like really looking for and so my mom she didn't believe in grades and also when I didn't have to go to school I could always stay at home and and not go to school if I didn't want to especially on days that we had exams I didn't have to go

because she didn't me leaving grades so I did stay home a lot and I read a lot we had a like a big library and like I read all sorts of stuff from a very very young age things that are probably maybe it was completely unsubes or things that maybe I shouldn't have read. I didn't even understand what I was reading, like a sort of a book about the kamasutra. I was like, what is this? And a seven-year-old.

I'm loving. You're like, what is this? What is this? Yes. But there was such an openness to explore. And she was also, and I guess that's where my love for science and also for popular science came from.

She was like an editor for something, something similar to scientific American. And we had a lot of really living with her. It was like living in as like a book club slash always. There was really a lot of pursuit about intellectual ideas. That's the environment I grew up in. And I'm very, very thankful to that. I feel very fortunate.

Oh my gosh. Didn't have to go to school on exam days. Yes. I mean, who wants to go to school on exam days? And I took advantage of it. And I ended up getting good grades because I never going to medical school. And sometimes it all worked. Maybe when it works for other people,

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To give it a try, download Saley from the App Store or, scan the QR code on the screen. And if you want 15% off your first purchase, make sure you use my code, WNTT at checkout. Details are in the episode description. And so how do you think that that informs who you are today? I think I still, and I have a, it's both my sister and I grew up in that, and we still are that way.

And a lot of this books are really a result of conversation, this particular secure is a result of conversations that we have together. We walk together and talk about ideas. That's what we did when I came home from school. We would sit around. She really spent a lot of time with us and like she was really interested in what we had to say and how to think about things and to sort of see the original as like a different way of to challenge things, not to be afraid to sort of try to see things differently. So it's just a direct continuation. I'm just continuing along the same path of what I found really fascinating and interesting. Yes, yes.

Now, this is one that I couldn't wait to ask you, but I wanted to wait until the end. Okay. What is your attachment style? I think when I look at my attachment topography, I think somebody is similar to yours, actually. In some ways, I'm like with my partner and my sister. Like my sister is like, you won't even see the dot. It's all the way down at the very corner. I believe that.

Yes. She's like, wow, she's an amazing presence in my life. And she, really, a lot of it, I have to thank her for this book. I don't think, I'm an attachment person. It's hard for me to create something. I don't think none of us create something all alone, really. We're not, we just don't, very, very, like very rare. But with my partner, definitely secure.

With my friends, I think I'm a little bit more avoidant like you. but I try to really respond right away. I've sort of become better at that. Like to the ones who need it. Not everybody needs it. So just like to be, to choose the right. And then I definitely, in some of my relationships earlier on, I was more like anxious.

And that's why I wrote this. I started off as writing is something like a class for college and high school students because a while ago I saw it. Every once in a while they revive it on Broadway. There is like, it's called Spring Awakening. Okay.

And it's that show where they all go through terrible heartaches and this is a really tragic thing that happened with many of them. And I witnessed it as a child psychiatrist when that whole romantic relationship comes online, but not only also with friendships in adolescence, there's so much pain. And then I discovered also in middle school with friends, but in adolescence around romantic relationship, there's so much pain that comes on. and people don't have a roadmap to learn about security. No one teaches that.

So I started it off as like thinking about something to prepare for college in high school, so kids will learn so they'll have a better framework. Yes. To how to sort of work on all those relationships. Like I have this woman who, when she was 87, she actually like when she started a relationship, and she still is like, oh my God, he hasn't called me, when is it going to text me, what's going to happen? it's like back like you're 16 again.

Yes. So we can all benefit from it. And that's why I decided to write secure to some. So like everybody, no matter what age you are, you can sort of still create a more secure life for yourself. Yes. And the last topic I have, but I think it speaks to this exactly what you're saying is

how secure speaks to everyone is as a parent. Oh, yes. That's a big one. Yeah, to raise. What do you think are, you know, What's the most effective strategy to raise a secure child? First of all, the one first thing that I think people need to think about, if you understand that who you are as a child doesn't really,

like there's a lot more that contributes to your attachment style in adulthood than what happened to you as a child. So I think that takes a lot of the blame of the parents. And again, I told you, don't blame the parents for avoidance. So as a parent yourself, not to think, oh, God, I did this. I'm going to forever, like, damage my child. It doesn't work that way. It really doesn't work that way.

So if you can take out that sort of sting of blame, then you can give them more ease to sort of help parents be more at ease with things. I think that's helpful. But I also think as a parent, you see these things how they struggle in relationships with friendships, how painful it can be. So I really think teaching that idea of the consistent,

available, responsive. Actually, I teach psychology. psychologist at Colombia, we have a clinical seminar and I teach how to do therapy. And I bring in a little excerpt when there's a girl that talks about how her best friend kind of dissed her and her mother shows, you know what, we'll show her. We'll create this party and we're not going to invite her and she's going to come grovel. Only when she cries and grovel, only then will you accept her. And they do that and she comes crying and groveling and she accepts her.

But what the mother doesn't know and doesn't understand because she doesn't have that whole carp Cemi's understanding is that she's only, okay, now the friend is back, but she's perpetuated sort of like an insecure relationship for her daughter. Yes. And by actually saying, you know what, so maybe this friend who is not carp, maybe you should look for more carp friends.

And really teaching, so once you have the lingo, you can teach kids also how, for them, how to create a secure environment for them. But if you don't know it, then sometimes parents do the opposite. Yes. Seems like Karp Simi is the... For me, at least that's kind of... I look for something simple that people can use to create a more secure life.

Yes, yes. Thank you for that. The final question, and everyone gets this, is out of all of the conversations you've had throughout your entire life, which one stands as the most memorable? Who was it with? And what did you learn? I'm going to make me start crying because I really think about, I love talking to my mom. And, you know, we used to walk.

We used to live close to one another. I'm so sorry. And we would walk. And so I would walk her home. But then we'd realize, oh, the conversation is not over yet. So we'd walk back. And then we'd walk again. And that's when you asked me, that's what I was thinking about.

Yes. Thank you. See, once again, beautiful. Thank you. Yes. You know, I think that this last question that I ask, you know, it's interesting, it always... It boaks something. It does.

Yeah. There's some pull on emotion. Yeah. When we go back and we think, because we think about our loved ones. Right, exactly. I believe we... And that's like secure priming also. It's like with such a, like, a meaningful, yeah, I agree with you.

Yes. Who we felt most secure with. Yeah. Yes. So it is, you know, it's my favorite question. It's a great question. Look, what do you do to me? Well, thank you. And just going back to everything I've been saying is thank you. You know, I always say that I try and I tell my boys, I say, you know, we have limited time here on this earth.

Make it meaningful. Oh, I totally agree. Impact someone's life. Make it better. Your work has made millions of us better. Thank you. So thank you so much. And I hope that with this one, I even gave like a clearer roadmap to sort of how to do it just beyond romantic relationships. That was really important to me. Yes.

Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. Dr. Amir Levine, you know, this could be one of my favorite things about the pot, I think. You know, it's so wild. Like we have so many incredible guests. but to talk to the people that I base my work on is just, it's just mind-blowing to me, and it's such a privilege and a blessing.

And he is one. You know, when Attached came out, which is, what, 2010, when that book came out, I remember reading it thinking, this is really good, but I didn't realize how impactful the book was going to be to an entire industry. I mean, you think how many people talk about their attachment style? Like, everyone, to the point where, you know, he was very humble. He said, you know, attachment style came from Ainsworth, right? John Bolby and Mary Ainsworth work, absolutely.

But he was the first to translate that work to adults and romantic principles. partners. Like, he's an icon and his new book, Secure, is just as great. It's just as great because it removes just the self-identification piece and it pulls out to, okay, how do you apply this theory to your life? From the conversation, I mean, and this shows you how an ego stroke is always good is, well, I learned that we have basically the same attachment styles to our partners and friends and coworkers. So when I was like, all right, if we have this same attachment style, my attachment style, can't be that all bad, it can't be bad.

He destroyed the myth of your attachment style as a child, translating to your attachment style as an adult. We always hear it. that's completely mislabeled. That is a myth. And quite honestly, I have participated in perpetuating that myth myself. And when I say I've participated, I've said countless times, oh, wow, your parents showed you love in this way. Therefore, this is most likely your attachment style today.

Those two things don't necessarily go hand in hand. So I like that he destroyed that myth. And then secondly, to his point is it's inspirational. It shows that you could have been non-secure as a child and become secure as an adult. I am exactly what this data shows. I'm exactly who he described. I am avoidant with my friends. but it's not because I don't care about them, I don't love them.

But I think about even my best friends, I will go weeks without a message. And, you know, they all react differently. And now I understand that their reaction could also be based on their attachment. Some are just like, all right, cool, that's the way Paul rolls. some just don't say anything back to me right others are like checking it like what's going on what's going on you know so just that it's interesting how a label can help to ease your mind about something and so I did I am walking away distinctly with that but then also maybe number three is now how to manage that with the carp seamis that he was talking about, these interactions,

but making sure that they're consistent and reliable, predictable. Now I understand how I can use that one tool just to help to manage those relationships because ultimately, this is also something that I learned with Dr. Levine, is by not doing that, I am causing some. severe pain, the highest level of brain, well, he didn't use the word trauma, but the highest level of pain that I can give to someone I love by not interacting with them. I felt guilty and I would always question, why am I doing this? Why am I, like, why am I acting this way to, you know, to my best friends? Like, why am I doing that? And I was thinking, okay, something's

wrong with me? Like, or maybe does it mean that I don't really like them? Like, what is it? You know, and I would feel guilty and shame. But now I understand this is the way I'm programmed, you know? And that just understanding that I'm programmed that way reduces the guilt and the shame. And then having the tool further reduces any anxiety that I have around it. The two, the two, quick, like perhaps even today, is I'm going to share this and say, I just learned I'm avoiding when it comes to my friendships. I think that's major. And also in my topography, you know, that I did, it shows I don't have a problem sharing

that with them because I'm still in that secure box, I guess, suggests that I don't have an issue going to them, but I just don't go to them. You know, isn't interesting that the guy who didn't have to take exams becomes, you know, he's a professor, intellectual, isn't that interesting? I'll also take away what he shared up, the most memorable moment with his mother. I mean, that really got me. And yeah, you think about how just wanting to continue to engage with his mother, how they would just continue that walk.

But understanding how she raised him, understanding the premium that he places on idea exchange, you could see how that's love. You may not know his name, but you know his work. And I guarantee not only do you know his work, but you have implemented his work. in your life. So now it's time to know his name. Dr. Amir Levine. What is the number one reason for fights in a relationship? Nothing. Most couples fight about absolutely nothing. Oh, really? However, we found that the number of times that a person hears contempt predicts how many infectious illnesses they're going to have in the next four years. Goodness. Dr. John and Dr. Julie Gottman,

leading experts in relationship research with over 50 years of experience. John is renowned for his groundbreaking work on marital stability, while Julie is an acclaimed clinical psychologist. Men who kiss their wives goodbye live an average of five years longer than men who don't. We've really started to understand what makes the difference between people who have a great sex life, and people say they have an awful sex life. Please tell us. Pick three times a year where you just go to a motel,

an overnight, you know, it's magic. If it's a good relationship. Wait a minute, don't interrupt you. We went to a therapist. You too went to a therapist. Therapist believed that what made relationships work was clear boundaries. She said to me, John, you can say no to Julie.

And I said to Julie, do I sound like her? And she said, yeah, you do. But when you consider the divorce rate has been at 50% for decades, you realize their faith in me. marriage has been broken. So I ask you, is marriage outdated?