We Need To Talk with Paul C. Brunson - “The Next Morning I Was Full Of Anxiety” Calum Scott Reveals What REALLY Happened on Britain’s Got Talent & Battle With Body Dysmorphia “I Told Myself ‘You’re Disgusting’”

Episode Date: April 22, 2025

In this episode of We Need To Talk, Calum Scott opens up like never before. A decade on from his iconic Britain’s Got Talent audition, Calum reflects on the moment that changed everything. He reveals what was really going on behind the scenes, the guilt he still carries about his sister, and the truth about that death stare at Simon Cowell.  Calum speaks candidly about growing up in Hull, being raised by strong women, and navigating his sexuality - including the impact of being outed by friends at school. He opens up about his struggles with body dysmorphia, identity, and the time he found himself on a bridge, questioning whether he could go on. From Dancing On My Own - now streamed over 1 billion times on Spotify - to No Matter What, Calum reveals how he turned heartbreak into healing, and how therapy has helped him find peace. This is Calum Scott as you’ve never seen him - raw, honest, and deeply human. This episode includes sensitive topics like suicidal thoughts and body dysmorphia. Please watch with care and find support resources below: MIND - https://g2ul0.app.link/w5vNMYwowQb   Samaritans - https://g2ul0.app.link/zsXiEH8BORb Follow me here: https://www.instagram.com/needtotalk  https://www.tiktok.com/@weneedtotalkpod  Support Calum here: Instagram - https://g2ul0.app.link/JAW7hxKlKSb TikTok - https://g2ul0.app.link/xpUnQDNlKSb  Pre-order new album Avenoir https://g2ul0.app.link/uG2nTUJOKSb FTD & Me Blog https://www.ftdandme.co.uk/about-me  (00:00) Intro (01:38) Yorkshire Tea (02:55) Calum Describes Hull (04:10) What Are Some of the Northern Stereotypes That Are True? (05:37) Calum's Memories of Home When He Was a Child (07:41) Did Calum's Biological Dad Have Any Presence in His Life After He Left? (10:16) Calum's Time in HR (11:38) When Did Calum Discover His Voice? (13:47) Calum's First Time Singing On-Stage (16:49) Calum's Relationship with His Sister (17:43) Calum's Time in 'Maroon 4' (18:51) The Impact of Calum's Grandma on His Life (20:57) Calum's Life and Relationship with His Sister Going Into the Britain's Got Talent Auditions (22:18) Calum's Experience of His Britain's Got Talent Audition (36:51) Calum Reflects on the Impact BGT Had on His Career (38:47) Calum's Experience of the BGT Final (45:18) How Did Calum Get a Record Deal After BGT? (49:35) What Are the Biggest Highs and Lows of Calum's Career? (55:00) Calum's Style of Singing and His Confidence Over Time (58:50) Shopify Ad (1:00:02) Tinder Ad (1:00:57) The Lyrics to 'You're the Reason' (1:03:08) Calum's Journey with His Sexuality and Coming Out (1:21:52) Calum's Experience of Body Dysmorphia and Suicidal Ideation (1:29:57) A Message from Calum's Best Friend Jess (1:31:49) How to Support a Friend Going Through a Tough Time (1:33:51) Calum Explains FTD and the Impact It’s Had on His and Jess' Life (1:37:09) Discussing Mortality and Living Life to the Fullest (1:39:45) The Inspiration Behind Calum's New Album 'Avenoir' (1:41:56) Calum's Pre-Stage Ritual (1:44:26) Where Does Calum's Desire to Be a Father Come From? (1:45:52) Most Memorable Conversation (1:50:20) Paul's Takeaways Sponsored by: Shopify: www.shopify.co.uk/needtotalk  Tinder: https://tinder.com/en-GB Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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I deathed Simon Cowell. Simon Cowell, for God's sake. I asked him, did you see me when I did that? But then a minute later, he changed your life. I knew as soon as I started singing that there was something off. I remember finishing and I looked to Simon and he was the only judge not stood up. And then Simon was like,

well, rumor has it. There was a contract. on the table waiting for me that got ripped up. I was broken. How do you then go from the lowest point in your career to then a record deal? And I'd started to get real traction. I put an ink to paper in Capitol Records in L.A.

The video going online and it'd becoming a viral thing. I was being flown all over the world. It was amazing. But you felt different. Growing up, sort of was abandoned by my friends when I came out as being gay. I would be stood in the mirror going, you ugly, disgusting.

nobody loves you probably one of the lowest times in my life and there was one time that I had found myself on a bridge it's like my two year old self gave me a bit of a hug that's probably one of the most liberating feelings to date

that I've ever had is just knowing that I am enough here we go you're ready for this you really have done your research phone we just hit 100,000 subscribers so if you are subscribed thank you so much if you're not yet

please consider hitting subscribe. It's quick, it's easy, and it helps us grow our community. Can we talk about Yorkshire? Yes. It's my favorite tea, by the way. Yorkshire tea is just the pinnacle. So why is it the pinnacle for you? I think just so many memories.

It's home for me. That's what it represents. You know, even on the packaging, like the rolling fields and the little brick walls and the little fence and stuff like, and then it's just a good brew. Oh, phenomenal. Delicious. I did a blind taste date.

Oh, really? six, seven different brands of tea. Okay. And I didn't rank Yorkshire as the top. Oh, I know, no, hold on. Right, end the podcast list. Let me tell you why. Let me tell you why.

Don't leave, don't leave. I wasn't, I didn't have my tea chops yet. Right, okay. I was an amateur. Right. It was like too bold and strong and drink. I didn't get it. But then I did it another month, another month.

By the time I got it like the third or fourth, fourth month, everything else is like, what? You're just converted. It was like, that's the only tea I can drink. Thank. Amen. Amen. Thank God.

I mean, if you'd have told me, like, you know, Tetle's is up there. I'd have bent the set, Paul. I'd have bent it all. But we're on the right foot. I mean, we both love Yorkshire tea, so I'm like, this conversation is going to go swimmingly. It's going to be good. All right, so. Hull.

This is where you're from. How would you characterize Hull? How would you describe it? It's a little bit of a end of the. the road kind of a city. It used to be like a thriving sort of fishing city. And then when that kind of died off, it's not a through city. You're not going to have people coming through.

Like Manchester is an amazing hub of people coming through while people staying there. Hull's not got that geographically. You know, it's end of the line on the coast. I've always thought that Holes a bit of a diamond in the rough. I mean, we won the City of Culture Award in like 2017, I think it was. Yes. When I was still with my day job there, I think. and it was amazing for the city

and it transformed it and we had a lot of money pumped in and we had people coming up and visiting us and yeah it finally put it on the map a little bit and you can tell because when they do the national weather Hull's one of the people up there so I'm just like yes we made it

yes we made it we made it so Hull is north and now that I've been here in the glorious UK for many years there's a there's stereotypes that come with those who reside in the north

who are from the north so what do you believe are some of the northern stereotypes that are true I think like I said because of lack of opportunity and you know all that sort of stuff

we're a little bit more hard faced I think okay you know so it's like you know pick yourself up and get on with it kind of a vibe you know

probably a little bit hard on ourselves, if I'm honest. One thing I will say about the North is the ability to be able to make light of a situation. Yes. You know what I mean? I found many of my friends from the North, right, are self-deprecate.

A hundred percent. It's one of my best qualities. My grandma used to say, like, if you paint a tag on your own back, nobody will paint it for you. If you can sort of self-deprecate and you can use that quality, it's almost like you take the power away

from anybody else being able to do that. Yes. Like I said when I walked in and I'm talking talking about what I'm wearing. Like if I went up north in this, they'd be like, what the hell is that? But I kind of like. Whereas in London, we were like, that's fly. They're like, oh, that's hot. Yeah, I go to Weather spoons up north and they're like, take that off. But I do love that. I do love that like humor because it's like

I guess for up there in a working class, very much a working class city, you know, it's nice to be able to take the weight of the world off your shoulders by having a laugh. Can we talk about being a normal guy? Yes. Right? Because, you know, when I think about your beginnings, right, humble beginnings. Yeah, very humble.

So how would you describe as a little boy, how would you describe what home felt like? I have really fun memories of home and home is, you know, something I value a lot. You know, when I was growing up, my dad left when I was two. So, you know, when my mum met my sister's dad, we were a bit more of a family unit then and was for a long time and how old were you when your mom? I was about three

I think when my mum met Graham my sister's dad and then yeah my sister was born a year after that so there's four years between me and her oh well okay so you could recall that being for I think so vaguely

vaguely I mean I definitely felt as a very young boy that there was a little bit of a shift when my sister arrived on the scene. Interesting. I think Graham, you know, he, he was a dad to me and saw me as a son. And then when I think when he had his daughter,

then I very much felt like a stepson at that point, which was really sad. How does this stepson feel? I guess just a little less important. That was my experience of that. But to answer, to go back to what you were saying, like, Home for me is very, I have very fond memories. Regardless of that kind of absence, my mum is an absolute lover. She's an absolute diamond.

She's my angel. She's everything to me. She's like a best friend. I tell her everything. Sometimes in horrific detail. I think that is, when I think of home, that's probably the fondest memories. Being around my grandparents, my mom, my sister, you know. I love that description.

Yeah. It was close-knit. Safety. safety yeah that's which is probably the most important word yeah is you felt safe in that environment because that's what love is a hundred percent is where you can be safe so when you think about that the childhood were there any points where you were able to interact with your father or did he just move out because i think he was it canada he he moved to Canada when i was when i was young he he wanted to move to Canada with us and my mom told me that we we went when I was maybe

won and she she loved it and she loved Canada but she said you know I want to be she wanted to be with near her parents and so I think my dad at that point must have just made his mind up that he did and he like he pen paled me and you know sent me birthday cards and stuff like that but it was very much that he didn't come back and see me um so we never you know I never had like birthdays with him in the picture or Christmases or whatever else he would call every now and again and I would I guess I would take the call out of an obligation. You know, my mum kind of encouraged me to have a relationship with my dad as much as I could. And then when I was 12, he brought me out there.

And so I had a couple of visits when I was growing up. But, you know, it wasn't that kind of relationship that I wanted. You wanted. And that's exactly what I was going to ask is that were you loved in the way that you wanted to be loved? No, no. by my mum, by my grandparents, by my family, yes. But it was difficult with the father figure. And I think that that was something that I wasn't really going to truly understand

until probably this age. Interesting. You know, just recently, we, I organised for us to do family counselling. And it just, you know, it didn't. I wanted it to work. But my dad is very narcissistic. and so unfortunately he just he just can't see past himself you know and I think I think I've always wanted to prove to my dad that I deserve to be loved and I've tried to prove it to myself I think but I think

you know when we was having those conversations in therapy I don't think my dad really understands the impact he had on me when he left. And I think because Graham sort of was there and provided but wasn't that father figure, I think, I don't think my dad truly understands what I've missed. And I think it's a lot. Isn't it something how, even as an adult,

we still seek the validation from our parents? 100%. In Hull, right? You enter HR. Yes, sir. The reason why I left, so my wife was in HR, right. And when I was doing the research, I was like,

Callum, I was in HR. Honestly. What was he doing in human resources? I know. So let me ask you, what were you doing in human resources? What the hell were you doing with your life, Callum? I think, again, it's the whole thing of, or the northern thing of, like,

make sure you get yourself a real job. Okay. And I guess the amount of people that have come from Hall, that have gone on to have big, music careers is few. I think only a couple of artists. I think the House Martins, I don't even think they were born and raised in Hall.

I think they went to school and university in Hall. David Bowie's touring band, I think. Oh, well. From Hall. Okay. But I think that's it. I could be mistaken. And I hadn't discovered my voice by then.

So when I'd seen my friends that were leaving college and leaving six form to get jobs, and I saw my best friend at the time, bought his first car and was able to save money to go on a holiday and stuff. I was like, that's cool. That's cool. Yeah. Yeah. I need a career.

Yeah. It pays me. Yeah. And music is not going to do it. Right. So you're in your early 20s. At what point do you discover your voice? I would say a couple of years into that job.

Because my sister had always been the performer in the family. So she went to dance school when she was younger. she did tap ballet contemporary all that stuff as part of her uh performances she was asked to sing and i remember just being sat there like whoa like how she's just got the confidence to stand there in front of however many people and just reveal her soul through her music is just unbelievable to me like i just was so blown away by that and that i think that echoed around in my mind for a while and then as my sister got older she uh she uh she She had singing equipment.

She had like a little microphone and a little stereo system that she used to use. Sort of when everybody was out the house, that was the only time I felt safe enough to be able to sort of push what I could do. So when everyone left the house, you would sneak in to your sister and sing. And sing, yeah. That was the only way I felt confident. I think it was just because, you know, as I've gotten older, when you're singing, you're putting your heart on your sleeve.

You know, your voice is your identity. and, you know, there's not a lot you can do to change it, really. So if somebody thinks that you've got a terrible voice, it's hard to change that. Wow, so you kept that hidden all the way through your 20s. More or less, yeah. My sister had heard me, when I thought she was out, had heard me from beyond the door.

And I guess she set in motion what is now in my career. Because she sort of heard me singing. She put me into a karaoke competition. She didn't tell me, Paul. Oh, wow. Yeah, I wasn't, I wasn't impressed at the time. Wow, that's, I won't tell you what I said. But, yeah, I remember, I remember we went down because she, she, again, you know, fast-foning a little bit now.

But she, she, you know, was in competitions and little local karaoke competitions. And there was one place in a town by us called North Ferribee. And she, she, we were going down to, to watch her perform, I thought. And we got there and the guy was like, okay, so what are you going to sing? I was like, don't be daft. It felt like a bit of a sliding doors moment. And I remember I said to the guy, okay, do you have Paolo Natini last request? He was like, yeah.

So he loaded it up. And I got announced onto stage. I was piss wet through with the swim. I can't imagine. I was so nervous. And I remember going to the bathroom and I was like, can I escape? Is there a window that I can get out of? and I just remember thinking

I'm just going to have to face essentially face the music for one of a better pun and went back out on stage and Paul there were about eight people in the pub so it's not as if there were millions watching but that for me felt like millions of people you know with music it's a very emotional performance

you know especially for me I find a pocket of my heart or my soul somewhere where I dip in and show people what I can do, you know, and I remember singing the song and I was shaky and I was nervous. And then I got into it and you forget that people are there. You know, I went into a place in my mind and started singing the song and it felt really good. And I remember coming to the end of that song and there'd been a tiny pause of silence.

And that felt like a lifetime. Wow, because you didn't know what the reaction would be. Didn't know what it was going to be, had no expectations. and then, yeah, I just, when I got that round of applause, it was, it was like just pure euphoria. I just remember it being like a wave that washed over me, literally from head to toe goosebumps, just all the way out of my body. And like, for the first time in my life felt real purpose.

Just real soul yearning purpose. I felt like this is what I want to do for the rest of my life. In that moment? In that one split. moment, I was like, this is, this is what I want to do. And from that moment on, my confidence opened up and I entered, I stayed in that competition. I came third.

Okay. And then just doors kept opening, you know, we're in Hull. So it was small doors. Sure. But there were doors. Sure. You know, and I, I entered a local sort of, it was the local paper, had done a competition called the Hull Daily Mail Star Search competition.

The whole Daily Mail Star Search competition of Hull. Of Hull. And so I entered into that and that was much bigger. That was a, you know, the competition my sister entered me into was a little local pub. You know, so it still felt a little bit homely. This one was you're on stages. You're in a theater, you know, you're in venues. So that was a bit of a step up.

But I had hunger then. I had an appetite and ambition. Can we spend a moment though? 100%. on your sister entering you in this? Because I think this is a pivotal moment. I looked to my sister very much with respect and admiration. I think it was because she entered me in.

I thought if she sees something in me, then I should see something in myself. Wow. You know what I mean? So she believed in you. She believed in me. When you didn't. Yeah.

Yeah. And she has, for my entire life, to be fair to her. You know, growing up, we've always been close. Me and my sister have always been, you know, like two pieces in a pod we used to play together you know we've all family holidays whatever she's always been a big part of my life it's so incredible too to see that you know you two end up on BGT which which we're going to get to right but I'm curious in that zone before Britain's got talent right you were then entering yourself into competitions you were beginning to perform yeah you

were, I understand you were in a group? I was. You really have done your research, Paul. Why did you hesitate on that? You were in a group. Actually, I think you were in two groups. Yeah, I was. I was. One of them was a tribute band, which I'm sure you've familiarized yourself with. Yes.

Maroon 4. It took us a long time to come up with that name. It's clever. Yeah, the guys were like, Crimson 5, Scarlet 5. I was like, boys, there's four others. Like, I'm just doing the maths. We don't have to be called Maroon 5 minus 1. on. Maroon 4 will do.

I remember going to see my grandma and saying, these guys have said about this Maroon 5 tribute band thing. And I was like, I'm not sure. And I've never really played with the band before. And I don't know if I'm confident enough to do it. And she was like, do it. She was like, the way you're talking about it. She was like, you're yearning for it.

Be confident and trusting yourself the way I trust in you. And I was like, okay, I'll do it. And so, yeah, I did my audition. And I was accepted in. and we started touring his moon for. Wow, wow. But also, too, is your grandmother said, trust in yourself as I trust in you.

Yeah. And that, to me, is such a profound statement. Oh, my God, it's so profound. And she was always like that, you know? She was just, she was so kind and she was so thoughtful and she's so thoughtful of others, very aware of other people's struggles and worries and problems. And she always tried to make that her responsibility

to solve. So yeah, trust in yourself as I trust in you has it echoed around in my mind for since that moment. Yeah, I love it. But did your grandmother

pass away? She did. Yeah, she didn't get to see what I went on to achieve after that. My mum had noticed that she had a bit of a bit of a lump on her back

and my grandma's like, it'll be fine. And we discovered it was cancer. So she went into palliative care. And I remember I remember when I was I went to go see you when it was

sort of near the end of life and I'd started doing this for all stuff and I said I don't know if I feel a bit silly and I'm pretending to be Adam Levine I'm nothing like Adam Levine I'm just callum and she was like that's enough

and she was like you know you've got to chase your dreams you've got to keep chasing it she's like I know you'll be amazing and I remember that was kind of like the last one of the last conversations I had with her was about music and then was about my sister. And she said, you make sure you look after her.

And that there, they were like the last conversations I had with my grandma, which I'm really grateful for, you know, especially sort of sitting here today, what she's blessed me with and, you know, the effects she's had on my life is, I mean, profound. And I'm so lucky to have had her in my life. You know, I got chills when you said that now I understand why, you continue to look at your sister in that audition. Yeah, yeah. Because I didn't understand it until what you're saying now. Yeah, yeah.

Now it's hitting me hard. Yeah. You know, I remember when we did the Star Search competition, that was when there was the shift from my sister was the performer in the family and then it was me. You know, when we went, when we went into the Star Search competition, my sister didn't place. And, you know, we'd both applied for X factor when, Mr Gary Barlow was on there. Oh, wow.

And we, I got through and she didn't. I didn't make it through to the TV performances, but I was seeing this pattern of merge where I feel like my sister had guided me into this music industry and into this, you know, incredible adventure of life. And I felt like I'd left her head behind a little bit. And so Britain's Got Talent was an opportunity for us to change that because we'd both being accepted to the show. Wow. Okay.

And so we, you know, we've done, again, there's researchers for the show and they want to know, like, you know, are your brother and sister, you perform together and, you know, we rehearsed a couple of songs together for if, in case Simon said, you know, I'd love to hear you sing together. We were locked in. So I'm curious, going into Britain's got a talent, what was your wildest dream? Even at that point, my cap on what I felt was achievable was so low. Hey, I remember on the way to the audition in Manchester, I was in the car with my sister and with a couple of friends of ours.

And I said to her, I think the best outcome we can have is some positive criticism from the judges. And we go home and we work on it. Your dream was some positive criticism. Bro, I honestly, I kid you not, I genuinely was sat there in the car saying, you know, we'll get some, if we take some positive criticism, you know, we might get a little bit of negative criticism,

but we'll take the positive criticism, we'll go home, we'll work on it. I obviously just didn't think I was ready. It was a weird day. It was a weird day because for the first time, I think it had become real. Cameras were around. We'd had like these VT sort of tapings where we sort of talked as a family and they're like, oh, we're going to be a little bit in the distance. You talk to your, to your mum, about your audition, how nervous you are and stuff.

And it was very, it was, it felt scripted in the sense of, you know, there and talk to them whilst we film. But that was the only part of it that was scripted. Everything was real. You know, the way we talked about it. Our hugs that we gave each other, all very, very real. And it was when we was backstage. And it was just me and Jade where she started getting really, like, really upset and

nervous. And I think that was the first time I ever saw in my sister in a slightly vulnerable position. Why was she nervous? She was just, I think she, I think the way of. the situation had finally dawned on it. I mean, we were both kind of quite happy go looking. It was exciting. And I'll have, you know, a couple of friends there that was there.

And, you know, a couple of family members. And we were all buzzing. You know, we're all in the lobby. There's tons of other people. And, you know, Britain's got talent and, you know, all in lights. And I guess, I guess the excitement took away from what was about to happen. And then I think when we were backstage and mom had to be in the audience and it was just me and her.

And the researchers was coming over going, there's this wrestlers on before us. Wow. It's Britain's got talent. Yes. So it's literally a plethora of different talent. There were these wrestlers that were going on. And then they were said, then we'll come to you two.

And I think that's when she, I just saw it. I could see the change. She almost went a little bit wide-eyed and like, oh my God, this is about to happen. Watching somebody who I admire go on stage in front of all those people, I was absolutely busting with pride for her. but I think it was

I think it was also the magnitude of the fact that she was going to go on and then I was going to go on. Right. So I think that was the first time we'd see in the audience, the cameras, the judges in real life. Are you also thinking about the at-home audience

because from what I saw in the research is that that was the most viewed show in the UK that year. I think it was over 10 million people watching. Yeah. And in in BT's history, the most viewed audition, which is just...

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, what about? Yeah. Think about that. Most viewed audition, right? You have the most viewed series. How many people are in the arena that you're performing?

Thousands, right? Yeah, at least a couple of thousands. Yeah. So, terrifying. This is the largest audience you've ever performed in front of life. By, by far. And I think because we were in a theatre and because it was a huge audience and you've got the four judges who we've grown up watching, you know,

Simon Cowell and David Williams and, you know, it was, I think that, and we were sat next to Anton Deck, you know, who we love. So for us, it was very surreal.

And I think I, for one, totally forgot about the cameras. And I'm so glad that I did, because it was, for me, it was that moment in that, in that theatre. Okay.

That mattered. It wasn't, what's the big percussion is this? Who's going to be watching at her? It was very much there and then. And yeah, my sister went on. She sang a Jesse Ware song. And my sister is a little bit like a train

in the sense of when she's on the tracks, she's going. But that means if she was slightly off, she's going off. Off, okay. And she was just slightly above it. Simon kind of stopped her pretty soon after she'd started. and he was like, it's just not working. And I agree with him. She was in a different key and I wanted her to,

I wanted her to have a moment, right? So I was quite, quite glad that it stopped her. And then she started singing, with or without you by you two. And I thought it was amazing. And they were into it and the crowd were into it. And I was like, oh, my God, thank God. Like, she's getting the reaction she deserves.

And then he stopped her again. And that's when he kind of gave his criticism, which was that he thinks that she was a bedroom, singer and she said there's parts of his voice that she that he liked and parts of it he really didn't and so he said no and then the judges sort of after that you know waterfall of nose she came off stage and she she just burst into tears and i was stood with her and like so it's going to be all right and she was like no and she's crying and my shoulder and then out and deck are going i'm really sorry bro you've got to you've got to go on so i mean it was the most

it's hard to sort of recall how I felt because it was so like there's so much pressure and so much in that moment I was a big brother yes I was protecting I was keeping her safe she was my little sister she's just been reduced to tears by a grown man you know in some ways I kind of wanted to go out there and give him what for verbally I'm not a physical person Paul I was another fighter I didn't want to go and slap him or anything but you know I was I was I was upset, I was hurt, you know, that was my sister. I could sense that. I was like, I'd started to take my eye a little bit off the ball because she was my priority.

Yes. And we took a second. I had a bit of a breather. And then I walked out. I'm shaking. Yes. You know, and Alicia says, oh, you're, your, your judge brother. And I'm like, yeah.

And she's like, you're okay? And I'm like, yeah. And then I looked to her. And I looked to her the whole way. I mean, they didn't even pick up how many times I looked to her. I mean, I did. I didn't. I wasn't here in the UK during that time.

So, you know, I saw this, your audition, which, yes, is at almost 400 million views. This, in particular, right? And what just screamed at me and I didn't understand until this conversation was why you continued to look back. Yeah. What was going on in your mind? I think she was my safe place at that moment. She was the only thing I could see that resembled anything that I knew. None of it was familiar.

The only thing that was familiar was my sister in the wings. So she was my only anchor back to my reality. Did you have a sense of how the audience and the judges were reacting to you? Or was your sole focus? Yeah, it was more on her. I mean, I think I was a little bit sort of starstruck. You know, I've got these, in essence, celebrities. in front of me, you know, I was very aware that I was talking to celebrities and, you know,

I'm from Hull. You know, our local celebrities were, you know, the, the, the, the, the, the, lady, which was this lady wore a bee costume who collected for charity, blessed, God rest of all. She was our, she was our celebrity, you know, our local news reporter. Right. Right. So, you know, even then, that would have been called to talk to them in real life, but you're talking to Simon Cowell, you know, Alicia Dixon, you're talking to these celebrities, and so it was it was very sort of surreal but I was so massively aware the full front of my mind was my sister she's there she's going to be there she was crying her eyes out bless her but she's there for me so I felt strong enough to give what I needed to give and most funny Paul is she goes right whenever you're ready and I say thank you and I death stir Simon Cowell it's like a very small like half a second I'll I look to him and if looks could kill, I'm telling you now, like, you've just made my sister, she's crying her eyes out, man.

Like, how dare you do that to her? And then you see that and you'll watch it back and you'll be like, holy shit. That's the stare. That's the stare. Do you think that gave you, did that give you any bit of passion, bravado? Yeah, a bit of gusto. Yes. I wasn't sort of like, I'm going to prove you wrong.

It wasn't, it didn't give me strength. It just gave me pure emotion. And all those emotions, that kind of chaos was singing and performing was the perfect kind of vehicle for me to be able to get out how I was feeling. And I don't think I would ever be able to perform it the way I did on that audition again in the way that I did. You know, there was a moment where the piano comes in and it's sort of a little interlude. Yes. And I show my handshaking. Yes.

I think, again, that. I look back again and see my sister and I smile at her. And I think that was a very human moment in what was a very surreal, out of this world experience for me. I'm just a human being here. I'm just, I'm not a robot. I'm not a, you know, I'm not a music artist. I'm just a human being, you know.

So my question is, is who were you showing that your hand to? Who in particular? Like, was it yourself? Your sister? Yeah, I guess I was trying to show everybody in that moment, like, just how, and I was. I was actually shaking. That's why I was gripping, when you watch it back, I was gripping the microphone stand so hard

because that was my security blanket. And when I look at my performances now, that security blanket I had throughout, for the first parts of my career, microphone stand gripping it tight, hiding behind it. It wasn't until probably the last tour that I did, my Bridges tour,

where I was able to free myself from that. Interesting. Yeah, which is weird looking back on it now that that stayed with. me for such a long time. But yeah, it's not as if I was feeling like I was performing to any one person. I was just performing. You're just performing? Yeah. Well, I mean, you perform one hell of a song. Thank you. It was one of those words. This shows you my ignorance on Britain's got

talent. This is true ignorance. So, you know, I'm watching your audition, right? And I think, oh my God. I was like, his voice, he sounds like an angel. Oh, thank you. Sounds like an angel. Thank you. And I'm watching it with my, voice, my two little boys. And then Simon goes over, he hits the golden buzzer. And I was like, what's the golden buzzer me? Is he in? Is he just lost? I was like, why is he getting a golden buzzer? Where's all this confetti coming down? Why's everybody so happy? What's the golden buzzer about? Right? But I've now since understood. It's the, it's the kind of the straight through to the finals vibe. Yeah. Yeah. It was, do you know what was so weird, weird about that is that,

obviously you don't necessarily see it on the show but he had like a bowl of mince you know like mint imperials or whatever okay okay and when he stood up I thought oh he's gonna go get some mince so I was completely unaware and as soon as he pressed that buzzer you can see like

the color just drained from myself because I'm just like I thought the guy was just grabbing some mince like what's going on the fact that Simon had pressed it was was you know the most coveted prize I could have think thinking of getting because he was a, you know, an industry label owner for many years,

and Psycho. So, you know, I'd seen everything he'd done and with X Factor and, you know, a little mix from one direction and James Arthur, all those acts I'd seen go through with Simon. And so I knew that if I got his approval, I must be doing something. But think about this. That song was, how, was that a minute? Maybe you were on stage?

It felt like an hour. So say it was about a minute, right? Yeah. So a minute prior, you're giving him a death stare. And I asked him about that. I'm like, did you see me when I did that? And he was like, yeah, yeah, I did. But then a minute later, you know, he changed your life.

Yeah, it was almost as if the golden buzzer was him going, I publicly vouched for this guy. Yes. It felt like, probably, for the first time, somebody giving me, somebody backing me, somebody going, this is, this is, I believe in this person, outside of my family, obviously. It was the first time I'd ever had that in music. So it was, it was a complete life changer.

And, you know, obviously after the confetti had settled, you know, he gave me his feedback and he was like, you know, the version was sensational and he was like, you're not just a singer, you're an artist. And, you know, listening to the judges taught the way they did. you know Alicia Dixon and and David Williams and they're all saying like you're already there I can't see how this would get any better and I'm just like what what what is going on like couldn't believe it what is the first thing that you say to your sister sorry was the first thing I said to her because I was just so aware that my life had been changed and feeling like I'm just

pulling that rug from under her and taking the line alarmlight and taking the spotlight off of her. So sorry was the first thing I said. She was like, don't be daft. And we had a hurricane and then, you know, we had to let the dust settle a bit. I mean, my mum, bless her. I don't know how she coped in the audience watching her daughter, you know, not get through and get four nose.

And then, you know, watching me and getting a golden buzzer and God knows how she must have felt. She must have just been so, like, pulled apart in terms of how she could be. she wants to be there for a daughter but wants to celebrate with their son. It's like... Yeah, the emotional balance is unreal. Yeah. And now I'm going to go back and watch. Yeah, yeah.

And you'll see it within a different light now. Yeah, absolutely. So, you know, it is 10 years. Yeah. Almost to the week of that audition. Yeah, yeah. So a decade ago. Yeah.

Right. When you reflect back now, not just the audition, but the entire experience of Britain's got talent. Yeah. What did it mean to you in your career? When I look back now, I mean, it was like the magic beans, you know, Jack and the Beanstalk kind of situation. It was the moment that changed everything for me.

I think had I not had that audition, I'd have probably gone back to Hall, you know, room for, toured that around. I'm sure it would have been a success as well. I'm sure we would have done a great job. But I'm not sure I'd be where I'm at. I was actually literally just over in Montreal. on a TV show called Star Academy, which is like their X-Factor,

the voice kind of vibe. And I pulled the contestants aside and I just said to them like, look, this show is very important, but I am here as evidence that there is a career outside of this and there is a future for all of you. And it feels quite life-affirming

to sit here and to be reflecting with you on my audition. And I'm very grateful for it. You know, I wouldn't change a thing. I feel like for better or for worse, this audition, It was the start of my career. And I've done a lot of work since to not distance myself from it, but to show people that there is so much more to me than that one moment.

Than that one moment? Yeah. Now, did you have this mindset at the end of the series? Because I understand you came in sixth. Sixth. I lost to a dog, Paul. But the dog's dead now. Oh, well.

Okay. Oh, all right. That's a touchy topic. It's a little bit sensitive. Touchy topic. But even, you know, place. two, three, four, five. Not to compare.

Yeah. Because we know we despair when we compare. Yeah. But you came in six. Yep. So where were you in terms of your thought with regard to how big and bright your career would be at the end of the series? Well, so what's funny is we had the semi-final and I sang, we had to take our clothes off by Drain Stewart. I did a sort of a acoustic version, ballad version, as I would live.

to discover is my super talent of taking a fun song and making it depressing. I did a version of that and I won my semi-final. So in some ways I was given a false sense of security, I guess,

into thinking that maybe I could win this. You know, Simon's there, he's saying, you know, I think you've got this in the bag. You know, I had people saying to me that they'd been to the Buckees and put money on me winning.

Wow. I was the favourite to win on, like, in the newspaper. and in the media. And I'd started to believe it a little bit. And it came to the final. There was a lot of pressure. I was backstage.

And I think, I think, again, it was the same feeling as the audition. It was the reality of the fact that this was a final where there was a lot of expectation on me. Different from the audition in that sense, but the fear and the panic and the worry was all exactly the same. and I remember going up to my position and I was thinking I don't know if I remember the lyrics in the right order and I was starting to panic and then there's a scream behind me

and my mum's in the background saying you know I know he's going to move away and I'm going to miss him and she starts crying and I'm like oh I actually can't do this see all my family in the front row wearing vote for Callum T-shirts it was a lot it was a lot and

I came in I sang Diamonds by Rihanna and I just came in wrong. I knew as soon as I started singing that there was something off and I got to a certain part in the verse and I'd mess my words and, you know, now I'd consider myself a professional. Okay. I'd try to. Okay.

So now I would, if I messed up, you wouldn't know. But back then I didn't know anything. Okay. And so I, the instant disappointment of just being like, I put my head down and I caught. and there was a gap and it's so when I watch it back it's it hurts me because it's so obvious that there's a mistake and I think from that second you know within it within a half a second it was like give it all you've got now that's all that's all you can do give it everything because I thought I can't stop I can't ask to start again yes give it everything and I sang that last half of

the song like my life depended on it and I remember finishing and I was so disliked disappointed and I looked to Simon and he was the only judge not stood up and I was broken. I was absolutely shattered. I just thought the guy who's backed me is disappointed. And that killed me, Paul. I came off stage out and deck came over. I was so disappointed and the judges were so lovely. They were like, you're a human and this is what everybody at home is going to see.

You made a mistake. You carried on. You picked yourself up. You're not autonomous. You're not a robot. But, you know, and all the judges had given me a really good critique. And then Samu was like, it was, you know, you messed up. I just hope people see the back half of that performance rather than the front.

And I knew I'd lost it. I knew people at home would be like, oh, that's a shame. And they were right. You know, it was. It was a shame. It had been so much hype, so much sort of riding on that performance. And I messed it up. You messed it up.

Do you feel like that impacted the beginning piece of your career? Yeah, yeah. Oh, yeah. Obviously, they announced that I was sixth. I came off stage and I tried to see Simon and he'd gone to his dressing room and, and I think, if I'm honest to myself, I think Simon was disappointed. I think he, you know, he'd backed me and he'd believed in me. And I think he potentially felt like I'd maybe showed him up a little bit. it is how I felt about it.

And so he went upstairs. Rumour has it that there was a contract on the table waiting for me that got ripped up. I don't know if that's true or not, but that was the rumor. And I brought down. And luckily we had, the show had an on-hand psychiatrist. Because, you know, you get put in this bubble of the TV show and, you know, feeling really important, you know, and media and all this kind of stuff. and then it's done. And so they had to have somebody on hand to be able to deal with that.

When you say you broke down, how did you break down? Oh, my, I was in tears, Paul. I was just so, I was so disappointed in myself. And I was, I felt like I'd let myself down. I felt like I'd let Simon down, my family. Wow. And so I broke down and the psychiatrist took me in a room. And she was like, please have a cry.

Like, let it out. Because there's a lot of emotions. There's a lot going on. There was a lot of pressure. She was like, but please know that you did a phenomenal job. And please be proud of yourself. And so I came around and we had the rap party and I got to spend some time with my mom and that was really important for me.

Okay. I did a little video to my fan base saying, you know, I'm sorry I messed it up and you didn't deserve that. And then, you know, we had a drink and we sort of put that to bed. And it was the next morning that I was just full of anxiety. full of anxiety. All the researchers disappeared. You know, I was texting the research. Oh, is there any press that I could do?

You know, I'd love to be able to explain what happened. No replies. You know, didn't have any links to Simon. And this contract that had been ripped up, supposedly so I thought was the end. So I was on my way up from London back up to hole. Just sobbing my heart out, thinking I'm going to go back to human resources.

I'm going to have to ask room for a full of, let me back, very, very realistically thought that that was the end. Goodness. And it was awful. It's the worst three and a half of a chain I've ever done. They're done. How do you then go from that place of now the lowest point in your career, right? How do you go from there to then a record deal?

So I went back up north and the only person who I still had links with was the music lawyer. You know, as contestants, we were pitched by two law firms to represent us, to represent our own interests as well as the show. Okay. So we elected a lady called Talia Shelson, who's been my lawyer since. I absolutely love her. And she stood by me. She was like, I believe in you. I'm going to stick by your side.

I'm going to help you. She brought me to London. I'd gone up to Hall. sort of, I thought about maybe going back into work and I just thought, I just don't know if I can face it. And luckily, Talia had gotten me an agent who'd started getting me some live work from the show. And so my very first performance was for British Airways.

Really? And I'd done a little tiny, they had like a little, they were unveiling a new plane or something, and they had me in the hangar to sing a couple songs. And they paid me two and a half grand. And I was making that a month, maybe less than that. Oh, well, okay. So as soon as I got off, I was like, I'm gone.

I'm gone. Even if this is the only gig I get, that's a month off of work. So I just said to work, again, sensible. I said, could I have a career break? Could I pause my position at HR? And they allowed things like that for, you know, going traveling or university. And I think this was such a unique situation that they said, yeah, and we're going to put your position on hold,

come back in 12 months if you need to. And I realistically had that in mind. And it was funny as fast forward 12 months later, I had a record deal. Dan Someran was number one in 24 countries around the world. And they wrote to me saying, so we're expecting you back and where come Monday morning. Honestly, Paul, that was one of the,

I've still got that letter today. But yeah, it was, yeah, it's surreal thinking back to that. But I started to receive a couple more offers and I'd done a festival. And so I started thinking, okay, maybe all is not lost. All right. And I'd found an email from my now manager, Luke Williams, who had said, Hi, Scott.

I love your rendition of dance on my own. I've seen it on YouTube. I'd love to work with you. Is this, are you currently managed? And I'd had that email before the show. Oh, really? But I didn't see it. And then I went on the show and then I couldn't accept it.

So, interesting. So dance with my own, you had released that on YouTube prior to. Yeah, so I'd, yeah. Okay, okay. So I'd sang this in the Star Search competition. I'd started using that as almost like my little secret weapon. Okay. And then I'd released my own sort of little music video on YouTube.

All had to come down, obviously, when the audition went on and, you know, whatever else. But I remember, it's funny the other day somebody was talking to me about, uh, done so on someone being a billion stream song on Spotify. And I'd said, I remember very vividly when I put my YouTube video up of dance on my own, and I got my first thousand views. Paul, when I say I was popping champagne, I was celebrating hard. I can imagine. And it was like, my God, a thousand people have seen my,

and now I'm starting with a billion streams. It's hard to comprehend. Oh, my gosh. I mean, yeah, the streams that you have, the views is just, it's almost unreal. It's hard to comprehend it. I'm extremely proud of me. The numbers are ridiculous. The numbers are ridiculous.

I mean, like multi-platinum stuff. It's just like, and also all over the world. Like I was talking about this with the researches, as I see that all over the world, you know, people know you, they know your music. But if you're thinking about just with, you know, the first couple of albums, obviously you have an album coming up. Yes. Right? Very excited about that. Right?

Right. Which is big. Mm-hmm. But when you think of the career thus far, what are the highs and what are the lows? Ooh, one of the biggest highs for me was when I signed my first record deal. And I think the reason why it was really special was I flew mum over with me and I flew my dad in. And so they were there to witness me putting ink to paper in Capitol Records in L.A. iconic building.

It was one of the most amazing feelings. Although there was a lot of emotion and there was a lot of like does he even deserve to be here the right thing to do was for me to have my mum and dad there and so I saw my record deal and it was amazing

I stood there arm in arm with my mum and my dad first time in well in fact my entire life having them both there you know the Beatles the Beach boys Katie Perry Sam Smith

you know incredible artists that I had the opportunity to sit alongside. Yes. Huge moment for me signing that deal. You know, you talk about how iconic the building itself. Oh, I'm real.

Everyone knows, like, this is there. This is... Capital Records. I mean, there's Nat King Cole's piano in there. I got the opportunity to sing into Frank Sinatra's microphone, for God's sake. Like, it's just... I knew as soon as Capital were interested in signing me that that was what I wanted to do. I'd been asked by Interscope, Warner.

I'd been asked by almost everybody, Disney Records. I think the hype was so unreal on my version of Dan Samar and it was it was chatting across the world that I think obviously everybody wanted to be a part of that but with Capital I did feel a genuine artist relationship I genuinely felt like they wanted to build a career with me yes and they have I'm still with Capital Records now so it was it was a huge high moment I think I think a low moment was probably releasing the next single. We released a single called Rhythm Inside. Okay. It's a bit of a bizarre song. I love it. But it's not something that I ever thought I would release as a single.

I think at the time we were chasing a tempo record. Okay. We wanted to sort of step into that territory. It was important for radio and all those things. And we put rhythm inside down as a single and it just didn't go. just didn't go. And I was devastated. I'd gone from all of that upward success

to the first part of rejection that I felt in the industry. And that was hard. That was hard. Because I think I'd set myself up for expecting success. Sort of a bit of a shortcomings on my behalf, but I think I'd had no, I'd gone from no confidence

and that lack of worth, like I explained in my personal life, to suddenly having the, this purpose and having admiration from people across the world, I couldn't help but believe in myself. Sure. Do you think you reached a point where you were overly confident? Probably.

Probably, probably, not necessarily myself, but from the label and from management, I'd been sold that I was going to be, yeah, a big hit. Yeah. And that was a crushing reality. And I, you know, I look back now on my 10-year, career and I wouldn't change anything. I feel like we're products of who were made by the things that we've been through, good

and bad. Yes. And I think having that rejection and that failure has set me up to be able to deal with that. And in this industry, it's relentlessly up and down. I guess in all industries, there is that up and down. But in the music industry, particularly, those ups and downs are drastic. Right. Or drastic.

Yeah. And also, you know, we recently had Estelle. Oh, my God. Amazing. Yeah. Amazing. Amazing. amazing voice and she described the music industry in particular as a death by a thousand cuts.

Oh my God, yeah. That's a beautiful way to put it. You'll write something that you've cried your eyes out to and the level will go, oh, it's just not your best work. And that rejection is awful. And you know, you give it to radio and they go, this isn't what we want to play. It's rejection time and time and time and time again. You play a new song to your fans and it doesn't get the reaction that you were hoping for. It's constant. feelings of rejection and failures. But you don't, I always think, Ed Shearing actually said this to me last year. You learn nothing from success. Everything you learn is in failure.

And he's 100% right. It's so easy to get caught up in the rejection of it. It's easy to look at things and go, oh my God, I'm not, I'm never going to have another moment like that. You know, for me, dance on my own, as proud of I, as I was of it, it was important for me to be able to equal that with my own music. Yes. And so, you know, rhythm inside was a single we put out.

And then I think another single called What I Miss Most, that we'd done with the Max Martin crew and that everybody believed, you know, because it was Max Martin sort of approved that it would do so well. And I just think that people around the world wasn't expecting me to do Tempola. They're expecting me to make them cry. Yeah, because, you know, that's the most prevalent comment that I see on your video is how the song made the person feel emotionally. Yeah.

But in particular, it's introspective or sad or love. But, you know, it's tears. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You make them cry. I make them cry. And I'm darn good at him. You are damn good at making people cry. Getting people depressed.

I used to cover songs by Bubli and Sinatra and Robbie Williams and maybe I thought I could be a bit of a crooner. You know, then Ed Shearer and Palinatini and James Bay and all of these sort of contemporary guitar playing artists that were in the charts. But my musical influences come from my mum and that was, you know, we'd sit in the car, listen to Whitney Houston

and Celine Dion and Tina Turner. You know, those big, powerful, female voices that just soared, you know, the vocals would just take you on a journey. And I knew that deep down in my heart, even though I tried to, you know, squash my mum's music taste down because I didn't think it was cool and I used to listen

to Backstreet Boys and, you know, Britney Spears and NSYN and, you know, I think in my mind I wanted to be a pop artist. It was the ballast stuff that I just yearned for. The ballast, yeah. Talked about how you would stand behind the mic stand. Yeah, yeah. Right, and you were able to break free.

Is that how you were able to break free? Yeah, I think tapping into what I knew was the biggest thing for me. I guess when you get signed, you know, there's a lot of expectation and, you know, you're wanting to be a pop star and the label kind of, you know, put you on these TV shows where you're, you know, wearing amazing costumes

and you're performing your songs. And I think, you know, there's a need to want to make you to market you, right? You know, as any business would with product. Yes. You want to make it shiny and beautiful and you want people to see it far and wide and it be popular. And I think that's harder to do with sad songs. Singing something that felt true to me was what gave me the confidence.

And I think we'd recorded you the reason. You were the reason was kind of one that me and my manager really believed in. But the label were like, we need tempo. We need to break you out as a pop artist. And so that was the first time I ever felt confident enough to challenge. You know, I've been signed by this label. How could I dare stand up to them and say what I think I should be doing? But that was the first time I thought, I do really believe in this song.

And I really want you to believe in it with me. And they were like, okay. Okay, they allowed you. Okay. If you really believe in it that much, we'll put it out. What was it specifically about you or the reason that gave you the confidence to push back for the first time? I think I felt about you were the reason the same way that I felt about my version of dancing on my own. I had this sort of piano rendition that somebody played just like a piano accompaniment.

by this genet on YouTube and I sang on top of that and when I sang that version a huge fan of Robin, huge fan of the original had the opportunity with a piano version of it to give the song a new soundscape and for me to be creative

rather than, you know, when I was singing, fly me to the moon when it's all swing and you've got the kind of, you have to sing it in a certain style and I would end up sounding like snatch And so I remember recording it and just thinking, there's something really special in this.

And I played it to my mom and she'd cry. And I played to my sister and she'd cry. And then I started using that as my superpower. When we recorded you were the reason, I felt exactly the same way. I love all of those influences. You were talking about Celine Dion to in sync. You know what I mean?

Yeah. That's a range. It's very, yeah, it's very diverse. Oh my gosh. This is a full range. I hope you won't mind that we're taking a quick break from this conversation to talk about my show sponsor Shopify. So many of you who listen to this show every week also run your own small businesses or side hustles.

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Now, you are the reason also, because I feel like now I'm a proficient, Callum Scott. I've got all, everything. Right. With You or the Reason, too, is the lyrics. Yeah. Yeah. Did you write You Are The Reason?

Helped. You helped, right? Yeah, there's an amazing producer I have now brought in as an exec on my upcoming album. he's called John McGuire. Okay. Incredible. He's the

Bernie Taup into my out and John and another amazing songwriter that I've worked with called Corey Sanders. Okay. And so it was the three of us. You were the reason was more or less there when I got involved.

But they needed something to finish it. And so that was where I was able to step in and sort of have a hand in that. And it also changed from it being about anxiety to it being about love.

I mean, shocker, I step on it and said about love. Of course. Of course it was. But it was special to me for a couple of different reasons. You know, again, it brought me back to what I love, but having a hand in writing of that and knowing that it was special, sort of give me a new confidence. Yes.

Because it was, for me, even if I put it out and it didn't do well, it was me sort of creating a statement of this is the kind of music that I want to put out. Yes. This is what I want to be known for. And even, you know, even I would say beyond the style, right, you think about you are the reasons. It's about love. Yeah. Okay.

It's about romantic love. Yes, it is. All right. About romantic love with whom? Well, at the time, I was desperately single for. So for me, it was almost like trying to bring it into reality, almost a manifestation. I've just been like, I want to sing this song to somebody and for them to be. feel the same way about me as well.

And I've had a rough time with relationships. I've had a rough time with romance considering I write romantic music. Yeah, I've had a bit of a rough time. I suppose, you know, points to a lot of stuff that, you know, growing up, I had a lot of internalised homophobia because I sort of was abandoned by my friends when I came out as being gay. Can we even jump into that? Yeah.

Because, so we're back. in the hole. Yeah. Okay. And I picture the way that you've described it is it is, I mean, you know, the boys are boys. The lads. Yes. They're not boys. They're lads. Yeah, yeah. Right. And you were, you were a lad. I was. Yeah. I mean, yeah, I, I, I, I was a skateboarder. I wasn't afraid to fall and injure myself. And, you know, I was, I was one of the boys. It was all of us was, you know, there was no girls in our group at all. So it was all just lads that used to build tree swings and, you know, and got into the field and build dens and skateboard and BMX and stuff.

It was all very sort of laddie in that way. You know, back then, I mean, I was 13, 14 years old. I wasn't even looking in that direction. I wasn't even thinking about girls or sex or anything like that. It was very much like, I'm with my boys, innocently, I guess. and it was only when my mate started getting girls in our group and part of our group that I was a bit like you know like oh girls suck like I just want to

skate and they're taking attention away from us and and then you know then it would be like oh well surfy's got a friend that thinks that you're good looking and why don't you get with her and then it was questions and it was like why do you not want to have a girlfriend and I was like I'm a skateboard and I'm fine and I was like yeah but like you're just going to be the only one that done and it's weird and I think that sort of questioning had gone deeper than I

had thought it would. Okay. And, you know, I'd go home and I'd think about all the time and it come to a point where I wasn't eating properly, I wasn't sleeping properly and I was getting ill with it. You know, I was questioning myself at a young age about why I was different, you know? So you felt different. How? I just felt like I all of a sudden didn't fit in, didn't feel like I belonged all of a sudden. All I wanted to do was feel part of something. So then as soon as there was the questions about, you know, why I didn't want this, why I didn't want that, I felt segregated.

And immediately all that fear and all that anxiety and worry about self-worth all came back. There had come a point where I was with one of my friends sat up on this half pipe and, you know, I was just talking. and it came up again and I was just so down and fed up of the questioning when he asked me I was like I don't know if I'm interested in girls and he was like what are you trying to tell me a gay

and in that split second I felt like my world was either going to change drastically or I would hide it and I would take that darkness and I would live it alone so I made the decision to say maybe and he was like all right and then he skated away and he told all the boys and then we all went home and then the next day nobody came to call for me nobody came

to want me to school and I went up to school and none of them wanted to talk to me at lunch and you know that was my whole my whole life was my friendship group at that point so for me that my life was ruined from something I didn't even really understand. And that was horrible. That was probably one of the lowest, probably one of the lowest times in my life, I'd say, personally. Just feeling like all that rejection, all of those doubts about self-worth just came straight back to say,

if there was almost proof that I don't deserve love, that I'm not enough, that, you know, all the things that I was trying to tell myself I wasn't, You know, that was, for me, was clear proof that, you know, I wasn't worth it. Who do you, or who did you go to in that time? So, to have gone from a fun-loving, you know, big energy with the guys to then, you know, be the polar opposite of that. A couple of people had started to notice.

And one particular guy had come up to me and he'd said, like, I've just noticed that you're like on your own a lot more and stuff like that. He's like everything cool and I was like, yeah, obviously didn't want to say anything to anybody else for fear that that might happen again. And he's like, do you mind me asking you personal question? I was like, yeah. He was like, are you gay? So I was like, no, no, no.

I might, buy probably or something. He's like, I'm gay. And I was like, oh. And for a second, I was like, oh, okay, I can relate now. I feel like I'm part of something again. Right. And he I mean we were best friends for a long time

And after Britain's got talent We drifted it which was sad But he saved me I'd say He saved me from myself He saved me from the darkness that I was feeling Because I had somebody who I could relate to He was unforgivingly himself

He was unapologetically himself And people knew that he was gay and he was like I don't care And that confidence, I was like, it was like looking at my sister again. Right. It's like somebody who is just confident enough to be able to show their heart and so to people and to just be like, I can't give me a fuck. Right, right.

But you were at that time, though, you had still not publicly stating. And I think that internally, you were questioning yourself. Yeah, yeah. So you thought maybe I'm bisexual. Yeah, yeah. I'm not sure. Yeah. Right.

So how do you begin to then truly identify sexual? You know, as kids, like, you'd see FHM magazine or you'd see, you know, the magazines that, you know, my mate's dad would have. Right. And you'd look through and you'd see stuff and it'd be like, I didn't, I wouldn't feel any way about it. And so then you start thinking, okay, well, maybe I am gay then. And then, you know, I'd start to explore that.

And I found quickly that I was more attracted to men than women. Still, I'm attracted to women, but just not as much. And I think, you know, I still wasn't, I still wasn't confident in my sexuality. And in fact, because of the loss I'd had with my friends, I resented that part of myself. And I had done for a long, long time. I think I would say in the last, I'd say five years have just gone full 180 on it. And I'm like, I love who I am. But that's only in the last five years.

Oh, yeah. So in your teens, in your 20s, in your 20s, So I would imagine that friendship group that you had, they never came back. No. No. And, you know, I look on it now and I go, I don't blame them. We were young. Sometimes what you don't understand can scare you.

And I don't, you know, I don't feel anything towards that. I don't hate them. I'm not sort of, like I said earlier, I wouldn't change it. Because I am who I am because of that experience. And I have the compassion and the love. and the need to want to help other people through their situations because of what I've experienced. So I wouldn't change it.

And so in that way, I don't resent them. And, you know, we've seen each other out since. And it's fine. It's fine. But there was a lot of hate, a lot of internalized hate for a long, long time. And I always used to tell people if I could, almost like a matrix red and a blue pill. If I could take a pill and get rid of being gay or do it instantly. now I'd bat them out of your hand right even human resources you were you were still still sort of in the closet war

I still felt uneasy about it and I still used being by as a cushion because it made me feel like oh well I like women as well yeah I definitely like women as well it gave me almost like a norm at the time I felt like um so that for me felt like an easier to digest statement of being like I'm by And personally speaking. And, you know, so I got a girlfriend. Did you? I was with her for a long time up until prom. And then understandably on prom, she wanted to lose a virginity to me.

And I actually couldn't do it. I just couldn't do that to her. I couldn't even entertain the idea of it because I loved the girl. And we were a child, you know, we grew up together and went through school together. other and she was you know i'd centered my friendship around her and you know me dan and her and you know other other people created a friendship group so it was very much a integral thing for me to have hair and to have that friendship group but i couldn't i couldn't like to her like that i'd been lying to her for a while anyway what so what did you tell her we had a conversation and i i i told her

the situation and she was so upset and i and i get it like she immediately felt like she was not worth it and that i didn't you know love her and she took it personally and i i totally understand and it was it was wrong of me to to lie to her you know and to pretend that i was straight when i obviously wasn't so she took it hard but you know we were we were we were great friends so we we were able to we were able to get through it um and it meant a lot to me to get through it with her um and she was she was beautifully sort of graceful in the way that she she sort of she didn't make a big deal out of it she didn't tell everybody you know she was just like we're broken up and i've got so much respect for her yeah because i can imagine it's a it's a small town yeah you know

it's like 250 000 people it's not yeah yeah it's not a big it's not a big city you know but but you but you but you still kept that to yourself. You still went under the quote unquote cushion of, I'm by. Yeah, yeah. So how does this then impact you on Britain's Got Talent? Good question. When you're gay, if you're not comfortable with it, you feel that you have to come out again and again and again.

For somebody like myself, you know, people would make assumptions that I was straight. and I would have to say like actually no I'm buying whatever and I use that excuse a lot or I would do this thing where my media trainer thinks that it's perfect that I did this

but I would answer a question without answering it so you would say to me oh have you got a bed and I'd be like oh I'm far too busy I've got all this stuff going on and the question about the girlfriend is over there and we're talking about like work and other things exactly

So I used to be able to dodge quite a lot of questions When it came to Britain's got talent Oh my God, I remember this so vivid I haven't thought about this in a long time Paul There was a Britain's got more talent segment That I did with Stephen Mulhern And he came over And he said right

I've got Calvin's got golden buzzer here Sam's golden buzzer we're going to play a quick game I said I was like all right yeah okay Is that you're going to describe Your perfect girlfriend to me and I'm going to draw her on cameras. Oh my goodness. So I was like, fuck, I'm going to have to just go with it.

Because by then, the nation's watching me. I'm already in the closet. I was like, I can't, I can't, on TV that are actually, I like guys. So we, it was so painful because he was like, I think there is a video of it somewhere. He's like, oh, tall or short. And I'm like, tall and there, just like, blonde or brunette. I'm like, brunette.

And he's like, you know, we started going through these traits. And I thought, I felt like a fraud. And he showed me the thing. And he said, does this look like your girlfriend? And I was like, I said, you know, a little bit. And he's like, what's her name? And I was like, oh, I'm not saying it out loud. And he was like, whisper it to me.

And I was like, oh, it's Cassandra. And he goes, Cassandra to the cameras. She was devastated. and she saw that because she's by that time we'd broken up and I felt like I'd used her as a way of me disguising myself. Yes. And I had a lot of making up to do with her. She'd lost a lot of confidence in me and rightly so.

That wasn't nice to do that. Even though nobody else knew, she and I knew and that was enough. So that it was awful. And then news publications would run stories and the media, was asking a lot about my, you know, it's a lot of tabloid press. It was like, you know, asking about relationships and stuff like that. And, uh, I remember going into Virgin who look after me in the UK and broke down. I was like, I just don't know if I want to talk about my sexuality, you know, and yet everybody's asking.

Great. And I sat down and, uh, uh, name is Janet. She, she was lovely. She, she sat with me and we had a lot of. little cry and she just gave me the confidence she was like we will do whatever you want to do however you feel comfortable we could

go to a gay publication and we could give them an exclusive but we make it very much about the music and we either we talk about how amazing your career is and we kind of weave into there about the sexuality or we don't talk about it at all it's up to you

so we chose to do a piece with Attitude magazine and the piece was so well written that it kind of went under the radar. Interesting. Interesting. So you're still not... So by then, I'm like, fuck, I'm going to have to do it again.

Yeah. It was not until I'd written a song with Toby Gadd. Okay. Called No Matter What. And the session itself, who was in L.A., Tobby's went with...

I mean, all of me with John Legend and, you know, big, big, big writer. Yeah. So I was obviously cacking my pants. I'm like, this is a big, like, like what am I going to do? So he sat with me and he played some chords and he was like, he's feeling anything and I was like, a little bit.

And he was like, I'm just going to leave these chords playing. I'm going to go off and do something and then I'll come back. And in that time, I felt so like magnified. The responsibility on me to write in that moment was horrendous. I usually write with two people, three people. So to do it alone was traumatising. I mean, I text my eye and on and I was like, I need to go. This is awful.

I'm in the room by myself. Toby's left. We're like, what do I do? He's like, just try. It's like, give me 15 minutes, 15, 20 minutes. And if in 20 minutes you still feel comfortable, we'll pull you out. So you've got to do something. So I sat there, I sat at noodling around the idea of, of my coming out story.

About how, you know, I'd come out to my friends in it. It wasn't the best, but I'd come out to my mum and she said, she loved me no matter what. And so I'd started writing to that and it was very honest and it was the first time I'd ever written that level of complete honesty and transparency. But it felt good to think about it and to start writing about it. And Toby came in and we started to finesse the idea and I wrote the song called No Matter What. And it was as soon as I wrote that, although there was some fear about releasing it

and some worry about what it would do, I feel like that gave me a complete suit of armour. It was like the Holy Girl for me because it enabled me to be truly myself without any judgment on myself, without any hatred on myself. And I knew more than that, that it wasn't just my story.

It would be millions of people around the world. Exactly. And honestly, Paul, the messages I still get of just people being, like this saved my life. This is the song that I sent to my mum and helps me come out. This is the song I sent to my daughter and now we have an amazing relationship.

I get messages every day about no matter what. And by far today is the song I'm most proud of. Wow. Wow. You know, thank you for that. You mentioned in that that you came out to your mother and she said, of course. Yeah. A new moms would say.

She, you know, she goes, I had an inkling. Of course she did. Of course. Of course. It was lovely. I mean, she had a little bit of a, she had a little bit of a moment because she, at that point, she was like, I really want to be a grandma. I was like, that can still happen. Yes.

She was worried that she wouldn't be able to be the grandma for my kids in the way that my grandma was for me. In every other sense of the way, she was, she was like, I couldn't care less. Yeah. She was like, I love you no matter what, like for the rest of time. So she was like, you know, nothing you could say I'd do would ever stop me loving you. So that was a big deal for me. Just a quick one before we get into the next section. Callum speaks about his mental health and having suicidal ideations.

If this is a tough topic for you, please take care while watching. We've also added links to support charities in the episode description. You know, one thing that I did not know until we had Jojo Siwa as a guest. 75% of LGBTQ plus community felt the need to hide their identity. 75%. Yeah, that's overwhelming. It really hit me, you know, thinking about that. And as a result of hiding identity, there becomes just this avalanche of other issues.

Yeah. Right. And it seems like you've experienced many other issues, not just as a result of. of hiding identity, but just as a result of the abandonment that you talked about earlier, the stress, etc. So what are some of those other challenges that you've had in your life? It was compounding issues of abandonment, self-worth, low self-worth, less self-esteem, no confidence. And I'd gotten so far into my 20s and I started drinking a lot and it come to a point where I just, it was getting quite dark for me. These compounding issues

was starting to really take control. And I'd started to develop a, what I later found out was body dysmorphia. So I would, I found myself inspecting my body. Got into a point where I would get my bedside lamp and I would shine it on my skin and on my body. And if I found something I didn't like,

an artifact or a freckle or a mole or whatever it was, I would write it down in this notepad that I kept by my bed. So I came to a point where I would go to bed and I would like torture myself with this ritual of reading all these things that I hated about myself. And I wasn't fair. I didn't write anything I liked. Everything was just I couldn't stand myself.

Yeah, I'd get to a point where I would be stood in the mirror and I would be going, you ugly, disgusting, nobody loves you. You know, you're gay, you've lost all your friends, you'll never have a relationship. And I was so unkind to myself and I'd gotten to a point where because I was drinking and because I'd not dealt with other emotions that was going on, and I'm a sensitive boy as it is anyway, it just gotten very, very dark. And there came a point where I would just think to myself, I cannot see this getting anybody.

better. And so there was a couple of times I would I would just leave the house and I would go off. And I would almost not know where I'd be going. I would just go. And there was one time that I left and I had found myself on a bridge. And I remember kind of looking over the other edge and just contemplating everything and being like, what's the point? What's the point? I hate myself. I hate who I am. I hate that. I'm gay. I'm. I hate that I've lost on my friends. I hate that my dad isn't here. And I was hating on myself so much that I looked over the other edge

and had almost made a promise that I was going to jump. And having sort of in that moment, having looking over the other side, the first person that came into my mind was my mum. And I just thought, if I throw myself over this bridge now, what will that do to her? She would, she'd never forgive herself. And she'd be, she'd be, she'd, she'd lose her son, you know. So for me, it was a non-negotiable.

I was like, I can't do that. Can't do that to her. She's everything to me. And, and so I sort of came back and I went home and I didn't tell her. And the next day I got up to go to work and I was sat in my car and I just broke down into tears and I just thought I can't deal with this can't do with it on my own and so I called my doctor surgery and I said I'm so scared that if I don't see somebody I'm going to do something stupid and and they got me in that week and I went to go and see her an NHS counsellor

and I told my mum I had to tell my mum and she came with me and she held my hand through the first session and it was lovely that she was there for me and she was devastated, you know, because she'd just had, she'd just had a son was going to try and kill himself. So it was, it was a lot. But, you know, we, we sat and we talked through the whole thing and, you know, we came away from it a little bit lighter. And then we went again and, you know, I would start to explain about my body to smorphia and stuff like that. And my mum would be like, don't be so stupid. You look beautiful.

And the council would be saying, like, I know that you're doing a lovely thing, but by saying, don't be stupid. you're kind of making him feel worse in some ways so then we made the decision for mum to not be part of the sessions and from that point onwards I grew a lot I was able to talk about my dad I was able to talk about my sexuality um and I think when I'd started to talk about that stuff I'd just noticed that when I was going home I wasn't reaching for that note pad as much and when I was writing things down I wasn't writing as much and it became less and less of a tool and I just started to love myself a little bit more, you know, and not giving myself so much of a hard time, you know.

So it was a real turning point. Therapy has completely changed my life. You know, I've gone from wanting to kill myself to wanting to, you know, be a beacon of hope for people and, you know, wanting to be a light. And actually, whilst I was at human resources, I started looking into university courses of how to be a counsellor. Oh, well.

Because I was so inspired and so moved, by what he was able to do for me. I was like, that's what I want to do for somebody else. Yes. And that, in some ways, I found myself in that sort of a role. Yeah. I was going to say, Kell, you do this through your music. Yeah.

So with regard to suicidal thoughts, I'll call it ideation, because there's different levels. And that's something that I didn't quite understand. Yeah. Is that there is the idea of suicide. there's then the plan of suicide. And then the greatest level is you have the idea, you have the plan, and then you have the intent. Right.

So there's various stages. But what I didn't know was the disproportionate allocation, should I say, of reported suicidal thoughts within the LGBTQ plus community. Right. So in the UK, 44% of LGBTQ people reported suicidal thoughts. thoughts. Wow. 44% that's compared to 26% of heterosexual non-trans respondents. Wow.

13% of LGBT plus aged 18 to 24 have attempted to take their own life in the past year. 13%. Jesus Christ. I mean, it's just the numbers are shocking. LGBTQ plus. us young people are more than four times as likely to attempt to take their life than their peers. Which is heartbreaking. You concern yourself so much with other people's opinions that you forget about sort of loving yourself.

Right. And so the statistics as disgust in the shocking as they are, I can understand. Yeah. But I'd say what, you know, in terms of one thing that's also important to me is allyship. Yes. Right. And I constantly ask like, what could be? done, what could be done, what could be done.

But it goes back to something that I have begun to have conversations with my boys about, because as I begin to understand if they're leaning into a particular sexuality, right, is at the end of the day, don't be the one in the group who walks away. Right. Don't be that one. Right. You know, that's where it all begins. Yeah, yeah.

And quite honestly, that's where it ends. Yeah. But also, it shows you the. importance of having a group of peers. Yeah. Right. That you love. A hundred percent. You know, and that, that who love you.

Yeah. And on that note, all that note, I have another surprise for you. Oh, God. Are you ready for this? Yes. Are you sure? Are you sure? I mean. Callum, are you sure?

I feel like this is your life. Please welcome. All right. Here we go. This is, you ready for this? Maybe. Okay, here it goes. I know my little spring chicken.

It's your best here and special guest, Jacks. I don't think anyone quite has a fun chimp like ours. It has so many different levels to it. And you truly, you truly, truly inspire me every single day because of that. You deserve all of your success and more. We have made the most incredible memories together. When I am with you, I smile from ear to ear. I form abs in my cheeks.

and he truly is the most fun. But above all else, and the thing that I think is rare in a friendship that me and you most definitely have is that raw, authentic, honest, emotional connection. And I love you so much. Oh, my God. Thank you so much for that.

I broke. Ah, God, I love that woman so much. She's incredible. That's my best friend, Jess. Thank you for that. I was lovely. She throughout my, throughout my sexuality issues,

throughout the issues with my dad, throughout my career. She's just been such a rock. I think that this is almost a lesson that you could teach us all, is that when you have a friend, a loved one who is going through a storm, going through a tough time,

how do we support that friend? How do we do it? I think in a lot of, in a lot of these storms, what somebody wants is just that company, you know, just that reassurance. I think some people sometimes don't want to go through what they're going, you talk about what they're going through. Some people don't want to sit down and explain how they're feeling.

They just want that presence of some, that warmth of somebody. And I think with Jess, she has very openly talked about her diagnosis of FTT, which frontal temporal dementia. She's been very public with it. She's got a blog. It was FTT and me because it was the story of her mum and the journey that she'd gone through with her mum

and then heartbreakingly, she got diagnosed with the same illness. And so now it's become her journey. And then she's just done an incredible thing with Greg, my other best friend, her husband, of IVF. And the chances of baby Jack's being born was so slim but they've removed that bad gene from that bloodline and now Jess's family forever going forward has that gene removed which is incredible speaks volumes about Jess and Greg and

but I think to you know I think with me and Jess the big thing about about that is just being there is enough sometimes yes yes riding that storm with them is is enough yes I'm with you it's one of those where when we hold space for someone we don't have have to attempt to resolve their issue or come up with a fix. Yeah. It's just being present. Yeah. You know, with them.

Yeah. Talking about it, you know, sometimes helps, you know, sort of maybe trying to distract sometimes helps. But I think that presence of being like, I am here for whatever you need me for. If you want to sit and you want to cry my shoulder for an hour and a half and talk about it, if you want to go to those break rooms where you can smash stuff. Something. Yeah.

Whatever it is you want to do. to help you get through it. I think we should give some spotlight to FTD. Yeah. Because I was not aware of it. Yeah. Although now through the research, I understand this is exactly what happened to Bruce Willis. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. So what, if you could describe, what, what is FTT? Jess will kill me if I don't get this right. But as I know it, and I'm not a specialist by any stretch stretches, but it's called frontal temporal dementia. And it is a condition that it's, almost an inevitability, which is in itself very cruel. Jess's mum had been diagnosed after multiple misdiagnoses of, you know, of forgetfulness or age or, you know,

there's certain behavioural things that she was displaying that the doctors were saying, you know, it's nothing. Turned out to be FTT. and it's a form of dementia that's quite aggressive. If I'm right, it affects your behaviour first. And so Jess's mum had started to really change in the way that she'd gone from being a very chatty, happy-go-lucky, thriving member of the community to actually quite catty and a little bit nasty and very reserved wouldn't go out. and Jess was like there's just more to this and she sort of forced her mum to go to the doctors and they did some tests

and they found that she had this gene and so Jess had started a blog called FTDMee and me and she just detailed sort of the journey that she'd been on with her mum and yeah it's rough I mean she goes through that blog and it's an incredible read and you just see the compassion of Jess and you also see the real effects of what happens to somebody who's been diagnosed with FTD

and who eventually will pass away with it. Jess then sort of got tested and she has the gene. Her brothers have been testing. They have the gene. So she's in a position now where FTD and me has become her journey. And it's cruel. And, you know, she's an absolute superstar. You know, she lives life to its fullest because she knows there's

going to be a time when she forgets who we are and she starts to lose a memory and that's that's heartbreaking and so yeah the until it has to become real for us at the minute is is you know it's off in the distance it's off in distance yeah but it's it's it's hard it's really hard yeah you know I can't imagine but but out of respect for Jess and you I'm going to read the blog we definitely will um here's some research on FTD FTT FD is a less common type of dementia around one in 30 cases of dementia in the UK. So that equates to roughly 31,000 people in the UK today living with FTT. Wow.

Right. Significant number. Very significant. And we will definitely. And also in the description, we'll make sure that we have. It's so lovely. Yeah. Add a link for that.

Thank you very much. And thank you for sharing that because it's, you know, discussing mortality, you know, is such a challenging topic. Oh my God, yeah. And as I get older, as my parents get older, as I see those loved ones in our family passing away, you know, all of my grandparents have passed away at this point. And it's one of those where what I've realized is that we,

at least I'm speaking for my families, we need to talk about this more. Yeah. Yeah. We need to have these conversations. Yeah. Yeah. There is a song on this new album.

and it speaks to that fragility of life in quite literal terms. And it came from a conversation I had with my producer, John, and he has two little girls. And I said to him, I was thinking this the other day. I was like, isn't it so wacky that one day you're going to pick up Millie and you're going to give her a kiss, knuckle going to something, and you're going to put her back down and you'll never pick her up again. Not through choice or anything, just the fact that that'll be the last.

time, you know. So I think, you know, when we, when we was, when I wrote that with John, it was like a kind of, there's a real, it's a sentiment of, you know, really feeling fulfilled. Yes. You know, whether that's through love or through family or through career or opportunity. I just think, you know, that song speaks to that. So, yeah, I totally agree. Yes. And it also, I think it allows us to have one more chance at it. I'll tell you what I mean is this happened to me, Callum, yesterday. Okay. Yesterday, I'm in the park with both of my boys. Okay. Okay.

I have an 11-year-old and I have a 14-year-old. Now, my 14-year-old is almost my height. What? Right. He's a tall one. So he comes over and he says, dad, can I get on your back? Do a back ride. I was like, you're too big, man.

What are you talking about? I should be riding on you. What are you talking about? This is absurd. This is crazy. And then I walk away and I say, no, no, we're not doing it. Get back home. I say, I should have put that boy on my back.

Yeah. You know? And it was one of those where, and I still haven't done it. Actually, I think I'm going to do it tonight now. Just worry about your knees. Just want to show you brace. But the reason why I thought about it in the evening is I thought, you know what? I wonder if this is the last back ride.

Yeah. Because I can't remember the last time I did pick him up. So I want that experience. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And you're so right. The new album, actually. is kind of a reflection of that. It's called Avanoir.

And it sort of speaks to, I was reading a book by an author called John Koenig, who's written this book called The Dictionary of Obscure Sorrows. Oh, well. And it's this thing where he's been able to describe something or a feeling with a word that we haven't yet created. And it was when I was like having a bit of a doom scroll through Instagram. I was probably sat on the toilet at the time, Paul.

And I was having to look through. and I saw it and I was like, ooh, that's a word I've never seen before. And I started reading into it and he says about how we move through life as a rower moves, moving forward but facing backwards. And it's a younger version of us

that steers the boat, but we don't know what's coming. And I instantly had in my mind, you know, how that looks and how that looks to me. And he sort of talks about Avanouar being the desire to be able to, to be able to look around

and see your memories coming towards you. This is the, So this is the inspiration for the album. Genius. I know. I know. And it's like what I think is so crazy about it is it, when I was thinking of that concept, I thought if I could turn around and see what was coming.

Yes. Would I? And I think, you know, there's a lot of reflection on the album and there's a lot of like, you know, I've written about sort of sorrow and I've written about regret and I've also written a song to my future baby, a song on the album. And there's a lot of looking at the polar opposites and not a lot of sort of living in the now. And I think to myself, if I could see what's coming,

I wouldn't be hopeful. I wouldn't be ambitious. I wouldn't ever have any surprise. And I think, you know, the twists and turns of life for better or for worse is what makes life so fragile. It makes it worth living. It makes it magical. And it does sort of remind us to live every moment.

Absolutely. Absolutely. I am going to give my son that back ride. Yes, please. Today. Yes. Today. That's the first thing that I'm going to.

He's going to be like, what? What do you do? Okay. Yeah. You know what I love there too is that you said you were doom scrolling on the toilet. Yeah. Because in my research, I see that you, you've said this. If you can maybe clarify this is that you have a pre.

You know where I'm going? A pre-show ritual. Oh, God. Oh, God. How did we underpeer? I mean, tears. You brought us. Yes, is there.

And now I'm talking about pre-stage poops. Yes, is this your ritual? Very real ritual. Are you serious? And I vowed that I would, any time I was asked if I had any pre-stage rituals, I would always be honest. So in my transparency, I'm for the benefit of anybody watching and listening. Yes, I have this pre-stage poop that I have to have.

It's almost like habitual. I don't even think about it anymore. It just happens. It just has to go there. I think there's probably more to it than just needing to take a shit. Yeah. For one of a better way. It's definitely psychologically.

Yeah. I think it's psychological. I think it's alone time as well. I think it's having some space away from the energy in the dressing room. It's a moment for me to just be alone and have my own thoughts. And the obvious as well. There was a moment when we were in Portugal and I was doing a festival and obviously the only on-site facilities was a Porterloo.

Okay. The Porterloo was sort of sat backstage by the stage. And so I'm sat on the toilet, having my pre-stage poo, and the crowd had started to become a little bit impatient, so started chanting my name. I'm sat there, taking a dump with people going, Carlo, chat. I've never felt more encouraged in all of my life.

My gosh. Took me back to when I was a little boy. I don't know. That would probably make me nervous. Like, I can't go. I can't go. Yeah. I've got shyness.

But yeah. So you really do have this. It's interesting. It's a real thing. Yeah. I'd like to say that I have some sort of like, you know, I'd go around with some burning incense or I have like garg or some honey and manuka and. Yeah, those things as well. But the pre-stage poohs.

Pre-stage poo. That's the pinnacle. I love it. I love it. All right. So I have two quick categories. Okay. All right.

This one is super quick. is just you are now booed up. Okay. And you are in love. Okay. Okay. Right? Yep.

Okay. The second is you mentioned you want to be a father. Yeah. All right. Where is the desire to be a father? Where does that come from? Because we're living in a day and age where there is a decline in the percentage of people who are interested in having children.

Oh, really? Yes. Yes. So you're in a space where you actually want to have a child. Yeah, yeah. Why? I've always had a nature of wanting to look after. And I think being a dad for me is sort of, I think, an extension of the safety that I want to create, that I've had all my life through my mom, my grandparents, my sister.

I want to carry that on and become that safety for somebody else. And I think because I never had my dad present in my life, you know, I kind of want to fill that void in a way by becoming the dad that I would have wanted to have in my life. You know, so I think it's that. I think it's that. But there's never going to be the right time, I think, for me. It's a tough one. I feel like I could do it.

You know, pink, you know, famously brings her kids on tour and, you know, Adele and other people in the industry have been able to. to have kids and have that career as well. So I think it's achievable, but I just know that I would be head over heels if I had a little kid. Yeah, I know you would. Yeah. I know you would. All right.

So now, final question for you. Okay. You ready for this? I might be. Okay. So the final question is, yeah. You have had, Calam, you've had some amazing conversations throughout your life. When you think back to, and I mean, my God, I mean, the amazing places that you perform

for the king with Ed Sharon. right i mean it's just it's it's it's it's it's it's it's mad but when you think about the most memorable conversation who was it with what did you learn oh my god that's a great question what i will say is that it i had a conversation with myself i'll explain what i mean um when i had uh taken my dad for family counselling. And we sat in a room. It had been the first time that I'd heard my dad say that he should have been there when I was younger.

There was a therapist there that when my dad had left the room, she said, look, I want you to think about this. Your dad in this session has taken responsibility and taken accountability that he should have been there when you're used to. And throughout your life. And she said, there's going to be a moment when you get home. And she said, it will happen. where two-year-old Callum will pop up and he will cry his eyes out because he's been heard, he's been listened to, he's been valued, and it's what he needs.

And when he comes up to have his moment, you tell him it was never your fault. And I went home and I was, I'd been home for a couple of days. And I was just on a doom scrolling again. And I saw this video and it was this beautiful video of this little boy who's granddad had passed away. and for Christmas he got this little teddy bear that was wearing one of his granddad's pocket chiefs or something and he pressed the hand and the teddy bear spoke to him and he said, I love your son, you know that and the little boy starts crying and he's like, oh, I just miss you granddad so much and I was like, whoop, here it comes and I had this wave of emotion.

And when I told you I was sobbing, it was, you know, your stomach is wrenching. It's so hard because you're sobbing so hard. and so I'm sat in my living room, crying my eyes out going, it was never your fault, it was never your fault talking to two-year-old Callum. And I was sobbing my heart out for about 45 minutes, a good 45 minutes. But I can't tell you the world of good that did to me. It soothed the two-year-old in me that has been so desperate for that self-worth, for that moment to just be told that it wasn't his fault.

You know, I've carried that weight for such a long time. And so I think that kind of reinforcement to yourself and, you know, talking to yourself, I know it sounds a bit bizarre, but positive reaffirmation is so powerful. Yes. Well said. So as much as it's not with anybody, it's with me. That's probably one of the most liberating feelings today that I've ever had is just knowing that I am enough.

Perfectly said. Callum Scott, I tell you what, I've thoroughly enjoyed this. conversation. Thank you so much. It's been an emotional rollercaster for me. I, I, I, I, I, you know, what would I find so should I say warm about you? Yeah. Is that how you described Hull at the very beginning of our conversation is you used the term hidden gem. Yeah. You are a hidden gem. You were. You were. But you have chosen yourself and you are no longer hidden. And the world now sees this.

And the world now is to, really, it's to our benefit, right? That you are your full self. But more than all of that, you know what you've done? Is you've kept the promise to your grandmother. Focused on the music, taking care of your sister. And that is what I believe you should be most proud of. Oh, man. I am. I'm proud of myself and I'm proud that I've done hair proud.

Yeah. Yeah, you should. What are you doing to me? It's the end of the conversation. I'm crying. I will guarantee you right now. This conversation has changed lives. I hope so. Guaranteed. Thank you very much, honey. Yeah, thank you. Thank you. One, absolutely pleasure.

Yeah, that was beautiful. Thank you. That was beautiful. Okay. Now, I've been debating if I should say this or not. but I'm going to say it. One of my favorite conversations that we've had so far on We Need to Talk. It felt as if I was just lost in the story.

And just for me, just even from the, from an interviewer's perspective, I think that's the place where you want to be. Callum wasn't scripted. There must be some crazy truth serum that you dropped in this. What is this? vodka? He has not done an interview like this ever. Ever.

He's 10 years into his professional music career. It wasn't until the JoJo Siwa interview that the stat around LGBTQ plus hiding identity at such high rates. I was not aware of that. What Callum has done is he has struggled with that exact point. throughout the majority of his life. He said it wasn't until a few years ago where he's fully embraced himself in full detail. That stays with me.

The reason why I think that particular point kind of hangs with me is because I was in that zone for a moment in my childhood. We lived in the city, in New York City. We moved to Long Island. And for us, for me, it was being the first black family in this neighborhood. and I felt completely ostracized by all of these kids, right? Now, I was a bit more gangster than our guest,

so I changed the situation later on in life. But I have felt that. I have felt because of a characteristic, I have been ostracized, right, as a child. and it is just, it's the worst, it's the worst feeling ever. And I think that, I think, allows me to almost increase my allyship. And I think it's important for everyone to also consider that, you know, in their allyship. Spring just slid into your DMs.

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