We Need To Talk with Paul C. Brunson - The Quiet Struggles We Carry Alone

Episode Date: May 14, 2026

For Mental Health Awareness Week, we speak with Charlie Mackesy about anxiety, grief, loneliness and the quiet struggles so many of us carry alone. The bestselling author of The Boy, the Mole, the Fox and the Horse speaks openly about anxiety attacks, loss, vulnerability, male loneliness and why asking for help matters. In this open and honest conversation, Charlie reflects on the dark periods that shaped him, the friends he has lost, and the inner critic so many of us live with. He also shares the practical tools that helped him through anxiety, and why connection, honesty and feeling loved matter more than perfection. We're Talking Mental Health If you’re struggling, you don’t have to face it alone. We’ve included support charities below: Samaritans - call on 116 123 or visit https://g2ul0.app.link/xghDmmYV4Wb Campaign Against Living Miserably (CALM): https://g2ul0.app.link/npaQKXUV4Wb (00:00) Intro (00:42) Charlie Breaks Down the Darkest Period of His Life (04:36) How Paul and Charlie Actually Deal With Anxiety (12:48) Charlie’s ADHD Diagnosis and What It Changed (14:39) How Drawing Became Charlie’s Escape (16:12) Paul and Charlie on Grief and What Actually Helps (20:39) Charlie on the Loneliness Epidemic and Why It’s Growing (23:17) How to Silence Your Inner Critic and Build Gratitude Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Welcome to We're Talking. This Mental Health Awareness Week, we sit down with Charlie Maxey for a deeply honest conversation about anxiety, grief, and the quiet struggles we often carry alone. Charlie reflects on the moments that shaped him and why connection, not perfection, is what truly matters. Would you say that the darkest period of your life was happening? while you were creating either this book or the first book. Was that the darkest period?

I don't think it was. What was the darkest? If we could tap into... But they stay with me. Yes. I have memories that they're dark moments where, you know, things catch up with you, things you've been running from. And it causes this.

What do I do with this? What have you been running from? Well, I think, you know, there was some, like when I was a boy, that boarding school, there was some dark things that went on and then losing friends. And I think we all have periods which are extremely difficult and causes us to go into dark places. And we don't know what to do when we're in them.

And sometimes, I'm not even sure we should actually recognize we're in them. We're just fighting to stick, to stay. And we eat cake or whatever it is that's helping. It's often in retrospect, we go, whoa, that was hard. Or we're talking to a friend and we find ourselves talking fast and we start getting emotional, tears poor. And we don't even know it was there. And I think a lot of our lives, spent with things going on that we're not hugely aware of, you know.

Or they can be real, like cancer or whatever it is we're suffering that's obvious. But there's other stuff that we're processing from long ago that's deep within us. We all have it. And so I suppose I can't put a finger on it. That was the darkest time in my life. But there have been times when I've been aware of it. And it's caused me to seek help or cause me to question or need to process something. And so I think I've drawn on those times.

And, you know, and the return to love, you know, the moral says, where does it do? Where did your strength come from when he reconnects from remembering I am loved? It's that notion of light, a notion of connection, the notion that in spite of everything you're held, you're known, you're loved. Has that been the antidote, has loved been the antidote for your mental health? Yeah, it's been a huge thing. I mean, that vulnerability and the act of it is like a window into a whole new world. of existence and possibility and freedom that you can tell you can say this and it's the most courageous thing and it's just letting a door open and I used to be terrified of that door

because what was what was going to happen if I dared open it like oh my God just keep it down and carry on stoically and wow you know And it's not easy and it's not immediate, but it's this process of discovery that your your visceral root, you raw humanness and humanity is incredible. And universal. Yes. Universal. Like you're not this free.

Everybody we're all. So just talk about it and connect. And connect. Has that helped with, because I know anxiety is something that I've had challenges with. for many years. Yeah. I understand this is... Definitely.

Huge. Same for you. So how do you manage that? How do you manage your anxiety? I remember... I think I've had low level anxiety a lot and I've managed it for a reason. But I think that it goes up a level sometimes and presents itself as what I thought I was dying. Like I thought my heart was going so fast and I was sort of holding onto the wall.

and like what is this? And a friend of mine is a doctor and I called him, I said, I think I might be dying. He said, describe to me what you feel. I said, my heart's going a thousand mile, I don't know, I have to cling to you. He said, I think I'm going to talk you down from this.

And he said, the first thing you need to do is not be frightened of what you're feeling. Don't be frightened of it. It's okay. And he taught me how to not be fearful of the fear itself. Don't be anxious of your anxiety because that just means it builds like a wall. Is there a technique that you could share that was effective? He taught me, well, there was the breathing thing.

He said, you're a shallow breather. Okay. So he did the four seconds in, hold it, four seconds out, do that for two minutes. So I did that. And then we discussed a lot about how anxiety can be triggered by nothing at all. It doesn't need a valid context or circumstance. It can just come out of nowhere, which it still does. I'm just like, what?

Yes. What is that? Yes. So I do breathing and I tell myself to not fear it. And there's a page in the book about that. Sometimes things spin out of control. And remember that you are not a storm. It's not you.

So it's okay. And then obviously in times when it's not going, on practice things that help you. Whether it's meditation, nature, running, some pray, some breathe, some meditate, all these things. Drawing.

Drawing. Yes. Connecting with what you love. Talking, talking. Don't be frightened of what you feel. Don't be ashamed of what you feel. Music. You're like swimming in cold water.

You can you can encourage your healthy and I'm not a neuroscientist and I would never pretend to know that I understood these things that I know what works for me and some of my friends is

I think for me that the journey has been to get to place where I'm sitting here with Y Paul and if I wasn't being filmed I'd say the same thing which is that that that open that door and talk about it I have

plenty of friends who didn't and they're not here anymore. And it nailed them. And I sometimes re-re- why it's pointless regret. It's a silly thing, but imagine if we'd had the time to really talk about it. Yes. It's not weakness. It's not a failing. A lot of men feel like it's such a failing to struggle with this. It's perfectly normal in this world. We live in a crazy world. And if you if you're sensitive, you feel things, you're going to feel this. It's like with you, you're an extremely connected, brilliant-minded, highly sensitive individual who's bound to feel anxious at times.

Because you care so much. The more you care, I think the more anxious you're going to be about your kids, the world, what's going to happen tomorrow? What's going on here? Like, I think not to feel that is almost being numb. So, wow, yeah. But I think it's how we respond to that and how we look after ourselves, you know, that really matters. Yes.

And I know, you know, sitting here, like in saying these words that I have like such a long way to go. On the way here, I was panicking. I was going to miss the train. I forgot to lock the door. I had to zoom back. I had locked it. I just thought I had. I have that whole thing going on. Did I, didn't I, did I, did I? Okay, I'll go back. Minutes to spare when I are at a station. I'm just a sort of stumbling, fumbling, semi-interverted person who doesn't still is making, is winging it.

But I think we can all, we're learning from each other and the more we can talk about it, the more we'll learn. Absolutely, absolutely. Like, I don't know much, Paul. But it's just acknowledging it. There you go. Yeah. I think that's the key to everything is connection, communication, putting your hand up going, this is me.

This is me. Why are we doing this? By the way, I don't mean to get all heavy here. Like I don't mean to, Paul. This is a heavy conversation. And what I love most about these conversations is that this is one of those rare opportunities for so many people. Right. This is your opportunity to just reflect with no judgment whatsoever.

Yeah. You know, and go back to Zimbabwe and sit there picking the tea, you know. That's what this opportunity is a, is a. about that moment okay so when I was picking the tea plucking tea is difficult like I earned one cent literally everyone else is making two dollars a day which is not much but and I remember this guy John who was trying to teach me to pluck and he was laughing at me because you know he was the the the elegance of his movements is just like it's like a machine and they were they were laughing at

me and there was one time at lunchtime when everyone we were laughing and John I remember John stopping like he was just looking at me you know that when you get to the moment where this this strange pause and he was nodding and I was like what he said you're just the same aren't you and I said yeah he said we're just the same we're all just the same and it was just like oh wow humanity It's just Geer's white boy

from Battersea John Sub-Saharan Yes poverty-stricken you know and we had this moment when I went

And it was That moment lasted And last it And last it and lasted And last it And we was like Yeah And I could see

His lights going on And mine You know what I mean? Oh yeah It's interesting I feel like we do it to this day, but we have to be fully connected and emotionally aware in order to fully, fully download. Yes. And willing and open.

Yes. There is. All this division, but come on. It doesn't need to be. No. I mean, this is, you can argue that we're more divided today than ever. You can really make that argument. You could, yeah.

Yeah. I am also, you know, we haven't talked about, so you were diagnosed with ADHD, is that correct? Yeah, or various people, the doctor said, I don't know whether you diagnosed, but yeah, I mean, people have said, you're on the spectrum, which I think, fine. Okay, he's like, yep. I don't mind that. This is me. And it's evident to me that I definitely struggle with it because in conversations, my brain will drift into eight different areas. And people say, is Charlie here today or not?

Well, I see Charlie is definitely here today. I feel very present here. You are here. But sometimes, like, I'm just removed. I'm thinking about ideas. Or something isn't holding me in the moment. Okay. And or I'm unaware that I'm not even there.

Ah, I see. Which is why it shocked me when my friend said, Is Charlie here today or isn't he? I'm like, oh, I wasn't aware that I'm not. sometimes not. Yeah. You know, people sort of say, or used to say to me, your attention span is terrible,

and yet you managed to do all these drawings. You've got to have real attention to do them. And I think I realize that there are things we can do when we struggle with attention issues that hold us, that so absorb us that we, and it's a place that I, with drawings,

I can just disappear into, and I can just, and there's something about, you know, about this iPad here where I can scribble on. So I have this and this, I normally draw the ink, but for the sake of argument, I can make marks. And I can similarly do, sometimes if I'm on the phone, I find myself drawing the boy, you know, on a branch without even realizing what I'm thinking what I'm really doing you know it just the boy just just comes out comes or you know or I'll be thinking about um talking about what I'm doing uh in the morning or so someone's talking to me and I'll and I'll be listening but you know I'll be you know this comes out you know oh there's yeah there's the

you see what I'm saying so you see it but the lines um keep me focus it's the The lines are actually... Making the marks. Okay. It's something about making marks that, um, uh, calms me down. So if you're making, can you make... And holds my attention. So could you make marks and the two of us have a conversation at the same time?

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Could we continue our conversation and you... And I'll just keep drawing? And you doodle a little bit. Okay. Okay. So let's talk about while do,ling, this is probably the best topic is friendship. Oh, yeah. With your friends in your friendship circle, what do you do?

What's a Charlie hangout friend hangout? Are you playing poker? Are you watching reality television? You know, we talk, it varies. My friends are quite eclectic and very different. So we all have really, and they bring out different parts of me. Okay. Which is why when someone dies, you sometimes lose that part of you that they brought it up.

Which really interesting. That is. I've lost quite a few friends and the bits we used to laugh about and the silly noises we made. And they're so unique. And when I lost Barney, lovely Barney, my dog who was also my friend, there was a language I used with him. And I used to say every morning, when I before I've heard him, I used to say, you're an extremely good little chap. And I would extend the word extremely. And he'd go crazy with the word extremely.

And you're extra, extra special like that. And it was his language. And what's amazing for me with those words is that Colin, my Irish friend's daughter, Amelia, who's four, when we were making the book together, I would sometimes, she would say, How did he speak to Barney? She's like, I say, I say, you're extreme. And so she now, he films her running around the girl and going, you're extra special. You're extremely good little.

And so for me, that's something that hasn't died. And I suppose friends to me, going back to the original, are we can relish the uniqueness of parts of each other that only are there with each other. And I love that. And they're friends who I can, you know, people's, you know, doing nothing with friends is never doing nothing, is it? And that's a line from a book which I think I like because you don't need to be doing a thing. You don't need to be going to football or watching it,

but you can just literally do this and chat or go for a walk and talk about anything. Just sitting in silence is doing an awful lot. You don't need to fill it, you know? Yes. Now, you mentioned something that's in your, and dear to my heart and that was when you said that when someone passes when a friend passes away that there's something lost right yeah so often on we need to talk i've referred to a friend of mine named Andre smith he was my best friend he passed away a few years ago and you said something that now

i'm just reflecting on for the first time and that is is that i notice that there's a part of me that died with him. Yeah. And so I wonder, you said you've mentioned, you've had many friends who have passed. Yeah. Too many. How do you feel like you've properly grieved for them?

That's a great question. I would say in honesty, no. but I think grief for me is going in installments and when I was a kid I had a record by Art Garfunkel and one of the lines was reality it's not for me and it makes me laugh and I remember thinking I like that because reality I can only take in small doses

otherwise it gets too much I think probably the subconscious is quite good on one level about drip feeding stuff to us because sometimes it's just overwhelmed yeah too much too much but I think probably what I don't do enough of which I should probably do is doing what you and I are doing that

hence the title of your podcast because I think there's something about the act of talking I think, takes teaspoons of pain out. And it never goes back. I don't think it ever returns. It's a teaspoon, but it's something. And so the more you talk and process and let go of.

And I remember when I was young reading somewhere that so much of life is about letting go. And I got really cross at that. I think, no, it's not. It's, but it is learning to let go. Yes. but we're learning through, as you mentioned, through conversation. Yes, we are. Through connection.

Yes. But what we also know, unfortunately, for men in particular, that our social circles shrink. Yes, they do. So as we all get old. I mean, for everyone, our social circles shrink when we get older. But it's disproportionate for men. Yes, it is. Yes, it really is.

Yes. I read that really recently as well, that the statistics are alarming. And since COVID they've got worse. Yes. And a good friend of mine the other day, who is so able and capable and bright and, you know, to anyone looking at him on the surface, he has everything, he just called me up. And then I said, how are you doing? He said, I'm really lonely. Do you get lonely?

And I said, yeah, I do get lonely. He said, well, that's work at not being lonely then. and it struck me and I thought you know it's something that does take effort yes that these default relationships because you're around someone and therefore you don't have to make the effort there's a different thing but some so many men

they think someone dies they move away this happens this happens and people you know that the ground gets thinner humanly so you need to choose friends and fight for them if I work in it and have the courage. Ever since he said that, I thought, whoa, that was a courageous thing to say. And my biggest struggle, you know, is the idea that I can love myself and my neighbor. I can't do that very well.

That's what the journey of this has been all about is, how do you see yourself? how do you hold yourself how do you value yourself how do you not throw yourself away in situations how do you keep believing that you're enough that you're worth it i think if you can if you can somehow be grateful for any situation you're in it's a good thing and not beat ourselves up yes because i'm a great one for that you know in this second book i there's a line where i say you'll have critics. Thor says you'll have critics. Make sure you're not one of them. Because I can be, you know, like, you know, here I'm talking to you and I'm trying to give my best side, but, you know, I can get home and go, oh, Charlie, why did you say that? Right. What are you doing? We think, you know,

and look at you, your genes, why get some new genes and I don't know, it's like, like, don't, yeah, don't be that critic. Don't be that critic. Don't be that. Give yourself a break. Give yourself some grace. Like, this is so poetic because. So every morning I do, and I've done this now for almost seven years, I try to do it consistently, is a gratitude exercise. Do you? So I identify three things from the previous day that I'm thankful for. And I'm going to tell you, Charlie, every morning, boom, pop up.

Sometimes I have three, sometimes I'm five, six, seven. This morning, I don't know what it was. I was struggling. I was struggling. I was thinking, Oh my gosh, what am I thankful for yesterday? Like, what was it? What was it? And I ended on, I got through it.

Wow. You know, I'm here. Right. There you go. You know? Right. But it's the basics. Yeah. It is the, I'm breathing.

There you go. Exactly. I'm alive. Yes. I can move. The basics. The basics. And you know what that exercise has done for me is it's now almost rewired.

my mind to look for the moments in the day. Really? So that the next, the following morning, I can now recall that. Okay, so you can, they're lodged in you. Yes. Recognized. And that wasn't the intention, but that's what's happened, which I find to be beautiful. So tomorrow morning I'll most likely say, just having that conversation with Charlie, I'm thankful for.

Yeah, well, right now, I'm utterly grateful for. what I'm scared of is going home going why did you talk about that? Really? That's the critic and I need to go, you just sit down because I'm going to be grateful now for getting there, finding Paul's studio,

having the courage to go in the door, find out he's a spectacular human not screwing up too much in what you said. You know, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you. Yes, exactly. We need to tell the critic to sit down. Just sit down a second. Because right now, and anyone who's listening, you know,

or watching and isn't too bored by this, just be aware that you're amazing and breathe and say thank you. being right here. And if you want to hear the full unfiltered stories from today's guest, you can check them out on the We Need to Talk page. Drop a like, leave a comment, and hit subscribe. See you next week.