We Need To Talk with Paul C. Brunson - The Shame That Silenced Me For 30 Years: Strictly’s Ore Oduba “I’m Sharing This To Save My Children”

Episode Date: November 4, 2025

Strictly Come Dancing winner Ore Oduba opens up about addiction for the first time - and the secret he’s carried for over 30 years.Content warning: This episode includes discussion of suicide and addiction. In this powerful and deeply moving conversation, Ore shares how he was first exposed at just nine years old - and the lifelong impact it had on his identity, confidence, and relationships. He also reflects on the emotional scars of growing up in fear, the silence he carried into adulthood, and the private battles behind his public success. Ore shares: ◽ Why he lived in fear of his father for years ◽ How his upbringing shaped his confidence, his career - and his silence ◽ The grief of losing his father and sister in such a short space of time ◽ How he felt like he was dying inside - while living what looked like a “perfect” life ◽ How Strictly Come Dancing became his awakening ◽ Why the West End reignited his joy and love for performing ◽ Why he struggled to open up, even to those closest to him ◽ How he’s learning to rewrite the story for himself, and for his children Ore Oduba, We Need To Talk. If you’re struggling, you don’t have to face it alone. We’ve included support charities below:  Samaritans - call on 116 123 or visit https://g2ul0.app.link/xghDmmYV4Wb   Campaign Against Living Miserably (CALM): https://g2ul0.app.link/npaQKXUV4Wb Naked Truth Project: https://g2ul0.app.link/JPSkS5mNZXb  Follow me here: https://www.instagram.com/needtotalk  https://www.tiktok.com/@weneedtotalkpod  (00:00) Intro (03:03) Growing Up in Dorset (06:11) Black Identity in 1990s Dorset (11:18) Childhood and Family Dynamics (14:08) Did Ore Feel Loved? (16:35) Early Love for Performing (20:48) Starting Out in TV Presenting (28:17) Ore on Newsround (32:38) Handling Media Scrutiny (34:22) Winning Strictly Come Dancing (45:22) Life After Strictly (47:41) Hiding Behind a Facade (53:43) Relationship With His Brother (1:03:30) Losing His Sister (1:07:47) Mental Health and Identity (1:12:35) Learning of His Father’s Death (1:15:32) Ore’s 30-Year Addiction Struggle (1:32:43) Adult Content Use Among Young People (1:45:05) Message From Strictly’s Joanne Clifton (1:47:25) Childhood Photo Surprise (1:51:33) Most Memorable Moment (1:55:33) Paul’s Takeaways Sponsored by: Adobe Express: https://ADOBE.LY/PAUL Get Your Tickets to the Love Better Tour: https://bit.ly/lovebetter-YT Birmingham - https://g2ul0.app.link/pJIj4XShrXb Manchester - https://g2ul0.app.link/4SQwKDXhrXb Brighton - https://g2ul0.app.link/BO71HSZhrXb London - https://g2ul0.app.link/gm6iB91hrXb Sync-ID MB01SOP0ZYTDXBS Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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stand a chance. Find Ollie Sleep Solutions for the whole family at Ollie.com. That's OLLLY.com I was nine when I was introduced to pornography. That's when my addiction started. I never imagined I was ever share this with anyone.

Growing up, I became myself on stage. So the stage you saved you. I remember joining secondary school and I said, I'd love to do a solo performance. And performance Victoria Beckham wearing platform shoes, cropped up, bandana. And I was having the time of my life. And your father, he ruled by fear.

And so I was terrified of him until the contract came through from the BBC. So finally I had achieved something that matters. When you found out that you weren't strictly, truly how did you feel with them? I had a great family, I had two kids, a hashtag couple's goals. It's what people are buying into. But actually, I was slowly dying inside, Paul. The person that was me was signed to scream, I can't do this anymore.

So in this period, what was actually happening? Gosh, I received a text message. I remember getting the news five minutes before going on stage. I'm so sorry to hear about your dad. I put the final head to go on stage to sing. Thank goodness that I found means to go, here's who you really were that was suppressed. The rest of my life begins the day after this is.

What part of you would you like us to see that we didn't see, previously. I've never spoken about this, Paul. Before we start, a quick warning that my conversation with Oray includes mentions of addiction and suicide, so please watch with care. Oire Aduba, we need to talk. Oh, Paul, we do. We really need to talk. I believe this is going to be already. I feel like this is going to be incredible conversation. There is a part of me that is terrified.

I say a part of me. The vast majority is terrified because I feel like personally for me, the rest of my life begins the day after this is. It's a kind of a seminal drawing the line moment. I've got to the point of going, do you know what, I've got so much going on up here that I have no idea how it's going to come out, but I know it's going to come from a very important place. And we talked for a long time about where we should have this conversation.

and in the end it had to be you. It had to be you. What you create here is safety. One is I thank you for being here. And to your point of so many people feeling seen, and I almost get chills saying this is that this is the most common comment that I get from people who watch we need to talk

is that through every conversation, they feel seen. Can I start with one area where I do not feel seen? scene. Yes. In your experience. Okay. Is it Dorset? Because I have traveled all over the UK, but I've missed. You've missed Dorset? How did that, who didn't send you a postcard when you were growing up? Dorset is, it's, it is one of the 17,000 places, wonders of the world. Dorset was home. Dorset was where we grew up. It's funny because, my parents moved a family from Nigeria to Dorset in 1988. And it was almost as specific as them throwing a dart at the map and going,

really? That's where we're going to live. And so you think 1988, you know, a family from Nigeria in suburban Dorset, we were not a common sight. No. And I was it, could you describe Dorset in 1980? for everyone. Gosh.

That comes 1950s Stetford Wives situation. It's just very middle of the road.

Even in those very early years, you understand that you are different, that you are the old one out.

And so at that age there's only one direction that you're going to go, you're going to, you're going to conform, you're going to find a way to blend. It's crazy that I think about this now, because it was so normal at the time. I would proudly say to myself and others, I was the whitest black kid in town and think,

you know, nothing black about me other than my skin. And that was by standards. That was okay. And I think it felt like it made other people more comfortable. It felt like you didn't need to ask questions. You know, my blackness, my heritage, everything that I knew to be true about that life that stayed at home, that didn't come out in public. In public. In public spaces.

So you were a black Nigerian family living in Dorset, which is predominantly white. Yeah. I would imagine predominantly like 90 plus percent. We knew one other black family, five minutes up the road. And I think my mom met them in the supermarket and went, we're going to be friends. Yes, yes. Because I had a similar experience in certain areas where I grew up where you acknowledged that you knew you were different. So you were trying to minimize the areas that you were different in public.

Yeah. So an area that I've never been able to talk about on this podcast that I love to see if we can dabble in is. So if you are growing up in a non-black community and you are intentionally trying to diminish the areas of your blackness, how do you then develop a black identity? You can't. Poor, you can't. You can't be what you can't see. The only one black space that I did inhabit, literally was my home. and for a long time as a person in the public eye,

it was safer to say that we had a happy home. There were times, but it was. Us as siblings, we had wonderful times together. But the reality was growing up in an environment and on a diet of education, obedience and discipline is not a place where that individual is allowed to thrive. And so if that was my definition of blackness,

well, that was my interpretation of heritage, I knew my parents loved me, of course, they, of course I knew that. But that boy growing up wasn't celebrated. That boy growing up wasn't allowed to express, you know, here's the thing. And I know that many families like mine will understand, you're not allowed.

to be different. You're not allowed to be expressive. You're not allowed to be neurodiversions. You're not allowed to be queer. You're the only things the thread is making the family proud in a way that we understand. And when you grow up with a father like mine who, and he would tell you was one of the number one lawyers in Nigeria. He needs to be able to tell his peers that he has a family that is going to make not only him proud, but everybody. And so things that make you, you, if they stray away from that, they're occasionally beaten out of people.

They are certainly not allowed to seed and to grow. And so I just feel sorry for many years of telling myself that it was happy when I know that I didn't feel happy at home. And I've got to point so gratefully now, fast forward 30 odd years, of reparenting myself and allowing myself to go, that was your childhood, that was your upbringing. And thank goodness that I found means, methods, learning, and understanding to go, here's who you really were that was suppressed. Yes. But to answer that question more specifically of where do you find blackness,

there was always this thing that I appreciated about going back to Nigeria. And we would go back regularly. We'd go back Christmases and summer holidays for two weeks at a time every year. Okay. There's something about getting on the plane, a plane full of people heading to Nigeria. I've just left Dorset. You get on that plane and you look around and you go, oh, I'm really not the odd one out here anymore. There was something that I always understood and felt my shoulders dropping.

But getting off that plane was a very different experience. Again, it's the idea of if this is where blackness exists, but this is the place that I'm being removed from the things that I love, the expression that I've found in my life as I'm growing up and returning to a place where 24-7 now, not just at home, 24-7 education, obedience and discipline. We were conditioned to hate it. Okay. And that's not a blight on the country. It's not a blight on the culture. It's not a blight on the heritage.

having this kind of dichotomy of a freedom in the UK, but then an intensity of discipline and intimidation over in Nigeria for two weeks at a time. You can't go home having a great time here. No, no. Did your father live in? He lived where? You lived in Nigeria. He lived in Nigeria. Yeah. So how did you feel that that dynamic impacted you? So you lived full time with your mother. You had your brother, two sisters, in Dorset. Yeah. But your father was full-time Nigeria. Yeah.

So how does that dynamic impact you and the household? My father died two years ago. Almost exactly two years ago. He ruled by fear. And so he would come over sporadically back to the UK, but it was mainly in holidays that we saw him. And so whilst usually most kids would have this countdown to the holidays and feeling like, oh, finally I get to do all I want to do, right? You know, for us, that countdown was anxiety-inducing because you know things

were going to change now. And, and, you know, this is generational. This is, this is a man who's only doing what happened to him and probably in diluted form to what he would have experienced growing up. And so for all of us, you are terrified terrified of the consequences

of getting it wrong and I was a very clumsy kid I used to I spent a lot of time in A&E did you I am a moth to a flame kind of boy it's funny Paul I'd recently got diagnosed with ADHD and it makes a lot of sense

now but that that age the idea of climbing something or standing on something I've got scars burns all over myself from climbing up to get something on top of a cupboard and this African bust head on top of it climbing and seeing almost like um a scene from home alone this this this this bus just made it swear down in clonked me on the head things that were just a kid being a kid would kind of be extinguished and and so naturally if that is your environment if you trying to be yourself or trying to navigate your way through your life is is punished there's no way that you can it's not safe for you to continue unless you manipulate or adapt yourself into a way that is

allowed to exist Where and how or if did you feel loved as a child? It's funny because I spent the day with my mom yesterday. And my children and my two, my kneeflings as my lay sister, love to call them. And I have the relationship with my mum now that I always longed for when I was a child. And that's only come after the most devastating two years of my life. But I'm so grateful for it because I think as a kid, like I said at the very beginning, you want to be seen, heard, validated and celebrated for that person that you are.

And I've got to say, Paul and my mum knows this now. Because we've spoken about those years. I never felt it. The things that I found expression in on stage, on the sports field, those places where you were allowed to grow and take on something and really feel the meaning and a purpose and a collective, a belonging. Yes. That's where I came alive.

And those spaces were never celebrated. I don't think that's a fault to my parents. That's just not what they knew. And I wish, I wish that they did, but they just didn't. And so I think knowing, you know, my dad's working all hours. He was providing for how he could do in Nigeria. My mom was looking after four kids, single-handedly, and working.

and as a devout Christian, and so Sundays were for church. And so there wasn't time. There wasn't time to celebrate those moments or to understand those children as they were as individuals. Yes. I've got this memory that I was so keen to show with you. That it's just a moment in time that it reminds me of, that's the kid. It's so beautiful because you've shown me a picture. you as a teenager.

And I remember leaving primary school and joining secondary school at 13. In that first term, they were throwing a Christmas party in the December. And they were asking

people to step up to any kind of performance. A recital, if you're learning violin, if you are particularly good at speaking, maybe you might deliver some kind of speech or if you're in the choir, I put my hands straight up and I said,

you know, I'd love to do. I'd love to do. I'd love to do a solo performance and I'm going to perform two songs. One is Mambo number five by Lou Bega. I'm going to sing that to everybody on my own microphone and a little CD speaker, yes. The other performance I'm going to give you is Victoria Beckham and Dane Bowers

out of your mind. Okay, it's a huge hit. Not content with just putting on that performance, I had to dress up as Victoria Beckham. Okay. So I asked my younger sister if I could wear some of her clothes. There was a picture taken of me

wearing platform shoes, a crop top. Bandana. Yes. That's kind of wrap around shades. And perform as Victoria Beckham, 14 years old. I met these children two months ago. And I was having the time of my life.

And that was the kid who was as fully expressive as you could possibly hope to be. No one has asked me to do that. I've gone, I know exactly the kind of thing that is going to come from in here that I want to express on the world. Yes. That's me down to a tea. And I think the boldness, the naivety, the kind of absolutely not a care in the world about what anybody else is going to think about me dressing up as a spice girl. Yes. But I can do it anyway.

And I could only do that in these little pockets, in these little places. I see it. And then we've got to put that back in the box. So you've got to be the choir boy, the school prefects. We've got to be the person who achieves in the classroom. Yes. I never thought a career on stage as a possibility. You know, I was excelling.

I remember being eight years old and being desperate to be in the school performance. Desperate, seeing all this life and activity and dress up. And the whole place has come into life and just being, I want to be part of that. I want to belong to that. I took to university and what I decided what I could possibly do is replicate that person, that character and put it into television. Interesting. Not understanding that the two things are very different because on stage you inhabit a role, you inhabit the character and then you put it away when the curtain comes down. I did know that on television, if I'm looking at it.

to adopt that character, if I'm looking to adopt that personality that I know is going to be acceptable, that's what is perceived as you, and you can't put that away. So as I, very fortunately, find myself in this career, everything that I kind of wanted to create, there's this creation that is acceptable, that people like watching, watching, that you know is going to be employable. And it took me a long time to realize that that isn't me. But then, so at university, I find this very interesting, at university, so you were very methodical about this, you were creating a character that you believed would do well as a

television presenter. So when you're thinking about the character, what are the attributes? of this character that you began to build at university, that would be the television presenter. That would do well in TV. By the way, do well in UK television as well, because this is where you wanted to present. I mean, I think that character was very much an extension of the character

that I was portraying in person as well. I think that character was someone that was very likable, was someone that was funny, that was somebody that was, that was seemingly extraversed and up for anything. But I think it was also allowing me an opportunity to escape something that was really going on. You know, I remember spending time for three years at university, really trying to make television a career spending nights or three o'clock in the morning, working and editing and creating content.

You know, we see it so much now and that's content creator world. Yes. And this was our existence. I grew so much in that world from, you know, a freshman, knowing that I was going to make a beeline for this television and radio and magazine world, the media center. It was a place of incredible creativity. And then I spent three years and that was the place that I felt at home and belonging. There was wonderful, like-minded kids like me that wanted to just make television.

and we developed it into a place while we were making five, six hour long broadcast, multi-camera staff, bringing departments together and doing stuff that was never done before. And it culminated on a personal achievement winning an award at the National Student Television Awards as the best male presenter, you know, across the country. That year was the year that I left university.

And how old were you? I'm 21. You're 21? And I remember calling my mom at the time and said, Mom, I just won. I won the award, I won the award for Best TV presenter. I just said, what's that? And I was crushed. I was crushed.

Because that was everything I thought, it doesn't matter what it was. It just means everything to me. The first feeling that I wanted was it should be celebratory. And it wasn't, and you know, she wasn't to know. I didn't share it with her. I didn't share that side of me because I didn't think she would understand it. But that was the thing that I was desperate to do and I found this avenue. I thought I'd begun to see that this is something that I could achieve in, that was mine.

But what hurts and what you're saying? And I can't fathom the pain that you went through without that, that's a thing. you went through at that moment in your life because here is something that you've spent so much time and energy focusing on, right? But you can't share it with your mother. Presumably you can't share it with your father at all. No. I remember when I got my first job at, in children's television, working for the BBC. And I told him, I said, Dad, I've been selected to be one of the presenters at CBBC and he laughed he laughed in disbelief because he didn't understand what that meant he didn't understand that that would be me and this went on about three weeks until the

contract came through and there's an envelope and on the top of those those big bold letters and at that point he lost it he was you know popping the champagne. Okay. Okay. And finally I had done something that he could share with his world. Because, you know, everybody knows about the BBC. And finally, one of his children had done something that he could celebrate with his peers. Finally, I had achieved something that matters. Was that the first moment that you believe your father was proud of you? Yeah. On the eve of heading off to London, I remember plucking up the courage to say, thank you for everything that you've done for me, but that you don't have to look after me anymore.

And I know in my heart that was a help cry to say, you don't have to have a hold on me anymore. Wait. Because I've escaped. I'm free now. I can look after myself. I can, I'm in charge of my life now. And I was screaming in tears.

He was very proud. But it was time for me to try to wrestle something back, something that hadn't existed before. Because it was mine. Yes. Yes. Yes. And you had truly.

worked yourself into that position, and that was based off of skill. Because, you know, I think with television, one thing that I've realized, because I've now, I feel like I've been in TV for at least maybe 15 to 17 years, is just how many people are grandfathered in, you know, who are brought in because their uncle

or their mother or their father is a part of the industry. They're just literally recruited in that way. opposed to those who really threw sweat equity, you know, and, you know, who achieved those positions. So I would imagine that you literally built your network from scratch. It was literally from university. You built your way up into the industry. Yeah. So you now move from Dorset to London.

You were how old, 22? 22 years old. Yeah. You have a job. Is this news round? This was news round. Okay, this is news round. There's a lot of people know news round.

Yes, they do. It's years and still going. I tell you what, so I wasn't living here, but I went back to look at some footage of you presenting. Oh, my God. I saw you doing your thing. I liked it. Okay. I liked it.

You always had a nice angle. I like how you always had an angle on news round. Okay. You can't stand directly in front of the kid. No, there wasn't. Yeah. You just gave up a little. A little side eye.

A little side eye. I like it. But quite honestly, and I'm not just saying this, I saw you presenting from the very beginning. You were very good. You were a very good presenter. Thank you. Very good presenter. Did you feel as if you were good at what you were doing?

Did you feel that? I felt like I was always on the path to wanting to achieve something. I always wanted to work really hard. It was a really steep learning curve. And actually, I was told to know on certain terms that some people thought that I shouldn't be there. Okay. Can we unpack that a little bit?

Who, if, I mean, we don't have to name names, but position-wise. I'm curious. How does a conversation like that come up and what are they referring to specifically? Well, I mean, in my case, you know, I think I dropped the ball a couple of times. Okay. I think a student now working in this amazing world of television, and just going straight from that to now I'm earning money. And, you know, I wasn't always on the ball.

And so that was my lesson to learn. But do you know what was so wonderful about that department? I think this was definitely something that was always a real mainstay of children's television. because kids did often see themselves. And I looked around and my colleagues, you know, and seeing people who became such amazing friends. And I did see colour. I did see diversity.

I did see people from lots of different backgrounds. And that would feed into the things that we were covering on the program. And that did feed into the messages that we were trying to give to other children. And so it did feel so meaningful. It did feel so purposeful. But I needed to step up. And I'm very grateful that there were a couple of times where I might have lost that job.

And I got given second chances. And so, you know, it was up to me to make sure that I really made that count. And I had designs of trying to conquer that place. You know, you talk about building that network. It had been something that I had been cultivating for a really long time. as a young person and I now see this big corporation yes and I wanted to go I want to

bring that department into here I want to I want to work over there I saw the opportunity I always saw a way of kind of navigating to try to get somewhere because again achievement was always the thing that was celebrated I saw a way of appeasing what I needed from that and also that excellence I knew was always going to be something that would filter back to my parents. So I kind of craved it. I became a workaholic. I believe this.

I believe this. How did you navigate this specifically? Because this is what, this is the, what is it? We're talking about 2000s? I was a children's presenter from 2008 to 2013. Okay. So in this period, from what I hear, specifically from so many guests who have been on,

we need to talk, is that the press was just in everyone's business. I mean, if you were on television, the press was in your business, you know? Where I'm going with this is, did you feel an extra level of pressure to keep, should I say, to stay out of trouble, right? to not be noisy in order to maintain your job. It's really interesting observation because, yes, 100%. I think, you know, that was a part of our training. We knew what the responsibilities were.

And I guess for someone like me, who was very disciplined or certainly knew how to look discipline, certainly knew how to create that straight down the line persona. That wasn't hard for me to do. But of course, yeah, you're a young person. Then you want to have fun. You want to drink. You want to go out.

And I think absolutely. And it should be. You are a role model to a lot of these children. that you need to be, there's a level of responsibility that you have to uphold. Yes. But that, an idea of your life's our business is something that I only really felt after strictly come dancing.

Okay. That's when that became real. Throughout that series and then in the years immediately after, that's something I wasn't prepared for. Wow. I had no clue how large the the viewership was, how committed the audience was to Strictly. I had no clue until we need to talk.

We've had various people who've been on Strictly and we need to talk. So I believe that when you were on Strictly, we're talking about over 13 million people watching. I think the peak audience that watched that final was over 13, maybe 14 million people. It's way over 50% of the viewership. And you think that moment is crazy because that will be 10 years ago next year. Look at that. It'll be 10 years ago. Look at that.

And when I say your name, what people tell me is that they associate you with news round and strictly. Right. They're like, wasn't that the guy that went strictly? Yeah. I know exactly who he is, right? So it's one of those where it was this moment in history, from what I understand, you are. you always wanted to be a part of Strictly. Yeah.

This was a dream of you. This was. Which is interesting. Yeah. It was a dream of yours. But now understanding how you came alive on stage, it makes sense to me. Yeah. And you know what was so crazy, because I had forgotten about that person, that Spice Girls performing kid.

And it was only about half right through that series that a light went off. And I went, oh, my. Oh my God. This is everything that used to bring me to life. And it was visceral. It was visceral because I approached that series going, I really want to put in all of this industry and all of this work that I've ever loved and learned

and all of that, you know, trying to excel that I've been taught along with this show that I've adores, you know, you all know Bruce Forsyth. Yes. Was anything that Bruce touched her, to gold. It was a huge hit. And from 18 years old, I wasn't bothered about Saturday nights going out and chasing girls. I wanted to watch that show that Bruce was hosting. And while I start working at the BBC, you know, on a Saturday, the whole building comes to life. You know,

there's a buzz around, I always compare it to Wonka's Factory. There's a buzz around, you know, the chimneys are smoking because there's life in that building now and the audience is queuing around the corner and I feel like a kid with my nose pressed up against the window and I want to be I want to be in there I don't know what happens in there but I'd love to be in there and everybody wants to be on strictly and I remember them giving me a call just to meet and I thought they know who I am they know who I am I'm nobody. This is wild.

I might, in five years' time, I might have a chance to be on that show. And I remember going to that meeting and going, I mean, I'm going to tell them how obsessed I am with this show. I've been watching it at this point now for over 10 years. And every single winner, I remember that dance, I remember that score, I remember that moment when it went wrong on television. You were strictly... I was a super fan, and I did not.

not hide it. And I thought, well, you know, maybe they'll pick up the phone in a couple of years time, but I think I'd put my best foot forward and I didn't hide it. And two months later, I got the call. And I was, I, I, I, I, I wasn't ready for what was going to happen. Of course, this wasn't planned, let alone being on the show. We had conversations, but being on the show was one thing. Going through that course for four months, like you said, in people's homes, in people's families, the affection and the connection they have to the show, how much it brings people's hearts alive. And I'm having this self-discovery in the middle of a going, oh, okay, hold on. This isn't just the show that I was a fan of. This is a person that had

been dimmed for decades that is now starting to say, hello. I'm still here, by the way. And so, you know, that series for me was an awakening because we just didn't want to go home, Paul. We knew we weren't the best pair, but we just weren't. We both, I was dancing with a world champion who had themselves, childhood had been working every second of their day to be at the very, very top. And that for me was like being given the Cristiano Ronaldo of the dance world.

You've got the opportunity to get everything you need to be the very best that you can be. But so she was, this is Joanne. This is my beautiful Joanne. Yes. So Joanne was a world champion, right? You have to admit, you walked in not too bad. I well not too bad

after a couple of tequila's Paul everyone's not too bad not too bad okay so not too bad so what I want to know is what made you feel like you and Joanne were the outsiders I guess I was a nobody

Paul I was achieving and I was enjoying my career at that point but you know we're in a room full of people who've sold out arenas in the music industry people who have a prime time household name status on television

who've come back from the Olympic Games with gold medals. And I'm going, I don't know why I'm here. I'm so thrilled that I've been invited to be here. But I think, and I was told this actually, there was a moment in the first couple of weeks where we might have been dumped out. And I think about that and think, I wouldn't be sat here with you

had a number of votes got a different way. And my whole life might have hinged on that. Look at that. Because it was only through winning that show that gave me the confidence to do some crazy stuff. And I guess what the audience saw is a transformation, because I did go from somebody that not many people knew

who put heart, soul, tears into every step. And I look back at that series now and I think of the person that was, I still have people to this day come up to me and go, you cried a lot on telly, didn't you? And it's so fascinating for, because this is only 2016. seen, now we are so desperate to find men, especially, comfortable with emotion. Yes.

Visibly. If you rewind that person who always wanted to be that, always wanted to be validated for expressing themselves in a way that felt authentic to themselves, but never was. and you'll get in the judges. Not only heap and praise, that's kind of their job. They've got to be enthusiastic. They've got to try and help you along. But really seeing that here is someone who is falling in love with this incredible art form,

really committing themselves and actually kind of turning into maybe as far as I know, the person that they were always meant to be, rack for their very eyes. Yes. So for me to hear this. that from the people that I looked up to, having not had it, that was the inner child going, I'm getting the thing that I've always wanted. Yes, I could see it. Such an inflection point for you.

Huge. Yeah. Huge. And again, it wasn't about winning. It really wasn't. I just thought, what an amazing opportunity. What an incredible opportunity to learn, to find out something about yourself. And this was a decade before my therapy journey.

what an amazing opportunity to find something about yourself in an environment that is safe that is uplifting, that is about learning, that it's about expression. Yes, you've got to put on show for 12 million people. But for six days of that week, you are going into a place that you never knew existed. And that, for anybody, is really the only moment that you started discovering who you really are. And that was happening right in front of people's eyes. And it was happening for me, for the first time in my adult life. When you found out that you want, I saw the clip. But now that you can reflect back upon that moment, truly, how did you feel with that moment?

utter disbelief because you kind of, if you have had those moments where you know, and I know you're a very present person, but sometimes things happen to you that you're, something leaves and you're able to have this kind of bird's eye view of what's actually happening. Yes. You leave yourself. That happened. I remember just trying to seeing. confetti and all of these amazing people that we'd been on this path and this journey with

and kind of going I think I think my life is changing and I don't know how it looks tomorrow this is this is everything that I've ever dreamt of I have to make it count and I think had we not won it, I wouldn't have been brave enough to make a pivot. So what was the pivot and why? I remembered the kid that I was and I remembered that being on stage is somewhere where I came alive and I thought, I don't know how, but I need to make that, I need to make that matter now. I need to go down that room.

And as a winner of Strictly, those doors are open. It's up to you to keep them open. And so I started working. I started working. Okay, what were you doing? I went to the vocal coach. I went to a place called Pineapple Dance Studios. Pineapple?

You know it? Oh my gosh, I know pineapple. That's, is it? Louis. Louis Spence. Yeah, yeah. There was a documentary about pineapple dance studios in the Norsees. A huge historical place of dance in the center of London.

Yes. And bear in mind that I've just won the biggest dance show on the television. And now here you are in dance class. Yeah. Okay. I went, I need to start from the bottom. And it was a really humbling experience, but one I knew I needed to take of entering a dance class and being the worst one. But having been just told you're the best one.

Yes. And I remember going into a theatre job. jazz class and there were 80 year olds and eight year olds mostly weren't and going I'm the worst here I couldn't keep up I couldn't dance a step and it was terrifying but I was I was hell bent on putting myself in a position that allowed me to start from the beginning to work up to a point of being capable again because it's very easy for someone like myself a strictly when it's walk into and get an offer and then to fall flat because you're not capable. Yes.

And I knew as somebody who wanted to build a career, that was something that I didn't want to happen. So at that point, your objective was I'm going to now create a new career for myself. I've looked at this resume of yours on stage and it is extensive. And I had no idea, you know, how extensive of a sense. stage career you have created. So would you say that this is your passion? This is it.

I think this is what I was always supposed to do. There's this wonderful quote that I always love returning back to that says, can you remember who you were before the world told you who you should be? Then I finally remembered that person. and for a couple of decades I was creating a version of the person of the life who I should be yes but this creation

of a perfect life a hashtag couple's goals was what was winning so you need to perpetuate that so you felt as if you were perpetuating this facade oh you have to you got a In order to stay relevant, it's what people are buying into, whether it's from a magazine or from a career point of view.

As far as I understood, this was something that was, that was the thing that was getting celebrated. So that's what you need to pour into. Okay. But it was, it was, there were cracks. At what period in your life did you feel as if the year, there was the most incongruence, so between the facade and what actually was happening. Where was the deepest divide? What year roughly?

Do you know what? I think there was a point, and we all had to have a moment of a reflection in lockdown. We all did. We all did, because everything stopped. was kind of before lockdown and after lockdown. And you had to reflect on what was going on. And that was a point for me. And I had never knowingly suffered from an anxiety.

But things started to get very loud internally. At this time, at lockdown, you're married, two children. Yeah. Yeah. You have what the public perceives. as not just a good life, but quite possibly a perfect life, right? Not too long from being on winning strictly. You have a stage career that's really starting to blossom.

So the public, I can see that there is this feeling, this facade, right? And then there was what was actually happening. So when you look at what was actually happening, what was it? You're talking about this anxiety. Yeah. But what was happening to you in particular? I think a lot of the decisions that I made in my life, poor, were to please my father. And I've had some people, some very wonderful close people to make friends, family,

who said, I wonder if people are going to ask you, Ory, if you're okay, considering what you and your family had been through in the last couple of years. Nobody asked if I was okay. And it all looked great. Did you have anyone that you felt as if you can talk to? Because this is this period where your marriage is breaking apart. But did you have anyone that you could talk to, no? No. So you talked to no one.

I talked to no one. I didn't feel capable of it. I didn't feel safe to do it. And I also thought that that, voice needed to be silenced. I thought that it needed to be quieted down. You know, here's a version of me that had been kind of told to be put to the side. And it certainly built my life off of a projection. Yes. Paul's about to show you a presentation he made in Adobe Express. So you better be nice. You might not know this, but I am the proud co-owner of the Mighty Sutton

United Football Club. And this year, I had the honor of designing our away kit. First things first, Sutton Amber, Black, the Crest, the fonts, locked in with our sponsor, Adobe Express's brand kit. I was presenting to the board, and the story I wanted to tell was that we're modern, we're sleek. Yes, we were founded in 1898, but we're still a club that belongs in 2025. I wanted everyone from a 10-year-old to a 90-year-old in the stands to say, I want that. All over Sutton United script pattern. Monochrest, amber trim, I obsessed over the collar. Okay, Paul, are you ready?

Yes! Yes! Yes! Look at that! Look at that! That is it! That is it! Yes.

Got a pitch to make? Adobe Express is the quick, easy, and free app to create anything, like this presentation. If you've made it this far, I know you're loving the conversation. So please do me one small favor. Hit that bell icon. Join our community. Thank you. You said this place was steps from the water.

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but because you've gone back, I'd love to address, is the relationship with your siblings, if we could. Because that's clearly a massive part of who you are and your identity. And as a young boy growing up in a place where you felt like an outsider, if I would assume that your siblings, your brother, your two sisters, that they were a place of refuge for you. That's such a nice way to put it. That's such a nice way to put it.

Yeah, four kids split right down the middle. Mum, dad, two boys, two girls. Six of us. But us four, there's only two of us left. and they were my best friends. You know, there's this idea that obviously all kids have the same parents and so in theory have the same upbringing, but not the same childhood.

And we all experienced the same thing. I lost my sister six months ago, and I have a brother I haven't seen for 20 years. We don't know if it's alive or dead. And I don't think it's a coincidence that most of us have pushed some big red buttons in our lives because that refuge that he spoke about, that safety that we felt amongst each other

was the only place that we had. What can you tell us about the childhood in particular with your brother? Because from what I understand, your brother was your best friend when you were a little boy. I've never spoken about this, Paul. I think it's the one thing I haven't confronted. I've done a lot of confronting in the last two years.

I think when you lose your dad and your sister within 18 months and go through a divorce in the middle of that, that's going to change your life. It has to. You can go one or two ways. You can fall away or you can tool up. I really start digging into why you feel like you do and I feel like I had to do the latter. I had to find a way out.

But the one thing that I haven't confronted is losing my brother. He had a psychotic episode and he had been a real achiever. I looked up to him so much. He was in all the stage productions. He was a really sporty guy. McSells at school, seemingly out of nowhere, he just fell off the track. And I feel for my parents because they had no idea what was going on. How old were you?

1617. Good. You know, there were signs at school that, It wasn't being friends with his friends and, you know, was falling into a difficult crowd and some of the behavior was changing. And as far as my poor parent, you think just generationally and culturally, they don't have an understanding about what's going on. As far as what we were told as children, he started smoking cannabis. Well, that would be it then. And after that, he became psychotic.

I don't think that was what was really going on, Paul. And when that behaviour became violent and intimidating, we had to put locks on the doors in our bedrooms because we didn't know what we were going to, we didn't know what was going to happen. But it was when we were under a threat when a knife was brought out into the living room, when we were told he wasn't afraid to use it.

That's when we had to leave. So me and my younger sister were, we went to live with our closest friends. I'd just feel for that boy because he needed help, but was a villain in our eyes. And in the eyes of the family, they were going to cause us harm. And so after that, I'd,

don't know what happened, but he was removed and we don't know where he is. So the last time you saw your brother was, how old were you? Do you know what, there was one episode, my dad tried to bring us all together, a few years later, and that didn't go very well. Okay. That was the last time, but maybe that one time since 2004. Okay. Once in 20, 20 odd years. So you saw him once, the last time in your teens, and then a few years later.

You saw him? I just have to ask, so were there quite, I mean, do you know how he was removed? Who removed him? Where did he go? Do you have any of those answers? I was told he was in Manchester at one point. But other than that, no. Did he leave on his own?

So many questions. I mean, it's crazy, Paul, because, you know, my dad died and there was a conversation we had to have as a family. We don't know where he is. He's got a right to know. We don't know how to contact him. And it's funny, because I had lived this life in the public eye now for 15 years. Yes. We knew he'd know about me that he, if he wanted to.

And at one point, it was the thing that I was most fearful of that I was trying to create this life that would build walls so high that whenever he walked into it, I had the defence to, that he couldn't ruin this life, the one that I was helping on creating, the one that was going to help me escape from that childhood. And I didn't want him to ruin it because it was everything that I needed to escape. That was my escape. It's funny because if he walked in today, I'd be ready to meet him. I don't think it's a coincidence that I find it quite hard to make male friendships, because the ones that I looked up to, and I don't think it's a coincidence that I feel quite intimidated

in male company. Do you? Yeah. The women in my life have always been the ones that I have looked to, the ones I felt safest with. The ones that have felt made me feel most myself. myself, the ones that maybe feel safe. That's so it's magic.

This is the conflict. These are the things that are going on within you that you need to address. Because left on their own, they're going to rip you apart. And they had begun to rip me apart. And I needed to start looking because my younger sister and I started looking. and I started to connect in their last few years when they died, they left a goodbye letter for us before they took their life and told us all that they'd been living for the last year as non-binary.

So respectfully, as far as I'm concerned, my sister, Lola, is they them? And that was a discovery for you for the last year. you were not under that impression. My sister had been struggling pretty much their whole life, struggling to understand who they were, struggling to fit in, struggling to understand why they had such a conflict with the person they wanted to be, but the person they felt oppressed as.

And this went all the way into their adulthood. And we began to connect with a connection, again after lockdown interestingly enough. Okay. And we both spoke about how low we were feeling. I reached a point where I believed that everybody would be better off if I wasn't here. Because I was doing, I thought I was doing everything I could to be

what everybody needed me to be. But it still wasn't enough. I couldn't be anymore. couldn't be anymore. And so I thought in that mind that I must be the problem. And my sister felt through different means, but felt the same way. So what I think about us having that conversation.

And I think about the way they went and how I found a way out. You know what is striking me. is how your sister was fighting against, it's that incongruence again. Right. Your sister has an identity of themselves, which is different from how society and others

have an expectation of them showing up. Yeah. It feels as if this has been your struggle, this has been your fight throughout your life. Yeah. So when you think about you freeing yourself and truly living out your identity, opposed to what society has been telling you it should be, what is it exactly? I saw this wonderful quote from Lena Waith recently who talked about a lot of people see,

a lot of people see queerness as a sexual orientation, but that actually it's, a non-conformity, a non-conformity to society's rules. By the way, you're quoting all the greats. These are exceptional people to quote from. Aren't they just, but it's such a learning because rules to be yourself? What rules? You've only got one life. Yes.

And for some people, my sisters, case, they died because they couldn't live that life. Because they couldn't put these conflicts of trying to be who they were and it being squashed and being trodden on and being down degraded. I remember going to therapy for the first time a few years ago. It's January, 20, 23. I'd started to get anxiety attacks to go along with all of this internal stuff. Yes, it was starting to become external.

There were patterns of behaviour that looked very generational that were everything that I did not want to be like, I'm talking about my dad, that I started seeing playing out with me and my own children. I was like, that's always the thing I said I'm never going to do. So I remember speaking to my therapist for the first time and saying, and them asking me, what do you want out of these sessions? And I said, I just want to find peace. I want to know why I feel so torn. And it was, again, no coincidence that much of what we discussed was my childhood and my father. Yes. And so it was only when my dad died that I realized.

and I remember going back to I was I was said I don't think I'll ever go back to Nigeria until he's gone that was at 15 that was the last trip we made a 50 I'm now 37 and I remember going back feeling those same feelings on the plane feeling seen amongst people that look like me

but getting off that plane and going I feel like a 15 year old And what was so unbelievable was now as a 37-year-old parent of my own two children. I remember walking back into that house where there had been so much pain and it felt viscerally poor like I was holding the hand of the 15-year-old me. And now with different eyes and going, you don't have to be afraid anymore. And it was like, well, I felt the lift because I could walk through those corridors and those rooms of that kid who felt so oppressed. And I could exercise those demons.

Finally, I loved my dad. He did so much for us. But I didn't shed a single tear. It was like I felt free for the first time. Like, he didn't have a hold on me anymore. And it's crazy, because if you don't mind me quoting another great Oprah, your friend. Yes, yes. You know, it's very hard for a lot of people who are grieving to think that they won't have those people in their lives materially in physical form anymore.

That they feel rudderless. They feel the sense of loss and being lost. that sometimes you can actually create a better relationship with them when they're gone. And it seems as if you're still navigating what that relationship feels like to you with your father, who has passed, but you're navigating that to this moment. Yeah. Yeah, I realized after that I had been in fear of him my entire life, even, nearly 40.

I remember one of the last times I saw him, I tried to have a confrontation with him about wearing shoes in the house. In my house, I thought, I'm going to put my foot down, this is my house now. Man, I reverted to being 12 years old all over again. This man was in his late 80s.

But I remember getting the news five minutes before going on stage. We'd been told maybe a week before that he wasn't very well. At the time, we didn't have the greatest relationship with me and my mum. But I knew something we needed to be said because she wouldn't call me on a Saturday night.

And I love my mum, but this is so her. She had some news to share with this, but she couldn't get through to me. So naturally, she's very close to her family as well, so she told some of her sisters that my father had died out of love, care and consideration. I received a text message.

I'm so sorry to hear about your dad. And I had to go on stage to sing. It's crazy because the character that I was playing was called Happy Man. And I knew that day that the world that I had understood before was over. And I had to do what I had to do. It was in my mind the whole time. This has been your story of having to do what you have to do. even though there's so many, not necessarily conflicting thoughts,

but thoughts happening that are contrary to how you're expected to show up in the environment. Please help me, Paul. Is it Kinsugi? What's that Japanese art form of bringing broken pottery together? Oh, wow. I wish I knew. I could just call it a mosaic. And lining it with gold.

There's that Japanese art form. I'm like, I am a sum of so many broken parts. And I am in a period personally of re-addressing and re-parenting all of those moments that I, now with the awareness that I have, with the self-awareness that I have, in being able to go, that was you. Validate that experience. That was your childhood. Yes.

So when you think about the traumatic experiences that you have run away from, we've talked about obviously what was happening in the household among your family. Are there any other traumatic experiences that you were running from? It's something that I was really keen to bring to this conversation to talk to you about, because because it was only as a result of all of these awakenings. A year and a half ago, I was able to escape an addiction that had dogged me for nearly 30 years. So going back to your less than, what is it, eight, seven, seven, eight,

wow, nine, nine, okay. That's when my addiction started, Paul. when I was introduced for the first time to pornography. At nine. Yeah. And I think after everything that's happened, only understanding how much of a thread that had been throughout my life was I was finally able to escape it. Because I know it had been dogging me. It had been destroying my life from the inside out.

But it was the thing that from a very early age was what I was running to as a response to a lot of the trauma. So at nine years old, you're introduced to adult content. Yeah. By whom? And what do you remember as your reaction to it? It's very innocuous, a friend's older brother. And this was 30 years ago at a time when we didn't have the accessibility that we do now.

I was just shown some adult images on the computer. And I remember being very intrigued and a feeling of eyes being opened. And whilst I wouldn't say addiction set in immediately, the intrigue started immediately. And it didn't take long. relatively speaking for that intrigue to start running my mind over because at nine at that age you haven't necessarily got full access you know this is dial-up at the time this is the 90s and um and wanting to find a way to address that intrigue wanting to find ways of that awakening wanting to replicate or find it where it is on television or in magazines.

Okay. And so there was a period where there was a point at, I think I was 10 years old, where one of my siblings was reprimanded for smoking at school. That punishment found his way back to my father, who told us, did not. He didn't tell us immediately, actually, he waited. he waited until we got back to Nigeria for him to then deliver his understanding of what had happened.

And there was a shame on the family now. And we were told in no uncertain terms that should something like this happen again, we will be removed from the UK, be removed from school, we won't see our friends, and we'll be educated. raised in Nigeria under his rule and under his roof. For a nine, ten year olds, that is life over as you know it, yes. And so you have a choice or certainly the only way you can defend against that is doing absolutely everything that you need to do to be safe, to not let that happen.

But I had already started this feeling, these behaviours. And I knew that I can't let that out. That can't be shared because we know what happens. Right. And so I became a master masquer. I had to keep it quiet. This is the problem with this form of addiction. That even I could understand it, 10, shameful.

It's so shameful. We can't talk about it because there is a perceived nature to it that is everything that we hate everything that we despise I was a kid and while you were a child the majority of people are introduced

to adult content between the ages of what 12, 13, 14 so you were in close to the age but still younger than the average But what I find so interesting about what you're saying is that at 10, you already felt the shame come over you. Yeah. Whenever I think about addiction, I always think about different pieces that make up an addiction. Shame being one. Loss of connection with people as a result of it. Yeah. Compulsion. Yeah. Having the need to do it. Right. You almost can't stop yourself. Yeah. Did you feel all three of those?

You did at 10? Eventually. Okay, eventually. Eventually. Okay. Eventually, I think, I think, I think having been introduced at that age and you know what, the reason why I come to talk to you about this now, Paul, is that this has now been brought to an attention for all of us. There was a report in July and the Children's Commissioner that told us that children as young as six now.

Goodness. are being exposed to explicit adult content. That actually there's research that 13, but as young as 11 could be the average age that children are being introduced to it. Look at the most of it is on social media. And 60%, this is all in the report, is by accident. And I think of the world that we have now are our fingertips

versus the one where, you know, we grew up at a time, we might have been the last generation, where there was a little bit of a separate, This stuff was at a top shelf. You did have to find a way online, but we have this in our hands and in our pockets now. And when I escaped the addiction myself, I was prepared to tool myself up in a way that I could guide my own children around a topic that I knew had given me so much conflict. because at that age I didn't want to find those images.

But as a way like you say of addiction, and I'm looking at the picture of Gabel Matto over there, who we talked about before this conversation and learning about his work has changed my life. Yes. And when I understand what he defines as addiction, any behaviour repeated that gives that temporary relief or pleasure

from something that we are escaping in a way to emotionally regulate ourselves often because of a trauma that is going to give us long-term negative consequences that wasn't something I chose and it took me 30 years to understand that I was returned to a behaviour that I was so conflicted with

what happens is this kind of conflict between real and the virtual where as a young person you are watching content in this so much research that is rewiring your natural neurological pathway that as a young person that is making you question what you know to be acceptable and left to its own devices, left unguided,

left undiagnosed and neglected. I can talk for myself as a young person, having been exposed to those images at nine years old, before the age of consent, seven years of exposure to this kind of explicit imagery, having had those dopamine hits, those surges and synapses and creating a sociosexual mapping in your brain that you understand to be, to have some truth. I know if we leave that the way things going, it's going to cause epidemic of problems for our young people. Because we're already seeing it happen now.

Yes. Or how did it so so I'm very curious now as how did that seven years if you will of rewiring of your brain how did that begin to manifest itself and show up when you were in your mid-teens and then in your 20s and then in your 30s well like any addiction it's something that is you have to live two lives you have the one that you're happy to show up in, and the one that you return to, in many ways, to feel anything, whether it is sadness or depression, or loneliness, or rejection, or happiness. It becomes a friend.

I already said the people that I loved most in my life were the women in my life, the ones that stay, but what you're seeing is so conflicting. to that. The battle that I was facing didn't become so overwhelming that it took over for what I need to be true. Okay. I had two sisters, the mother that I loved. I knew I couldn't share this with them because I knew it was so conflicting to the people that were most important to me. And so I have to, without knowing that I'm falling into addiction, find a way to hide it. And it's very isolating.

Again, it was something that I was just new to be me. Just a part of you. Just a part of me. It's something that I would always go to, to feel. If you ever felt worthless, if you ever felt rejected. It was always a thing. It's mad talking to about this. Now, I never imagined I was ever share this with anyone.

But in the last year, as I've spoken to friends and family and so many amazing supportive people in my working world, who have all shown so much love and pride in me talking about something that is a problem for so many of us. You know, I've been speaking to a number of people. Whilst the reason that I felt like I needed to speak about this is because I wanted to be able to be able to. to guide my own children when it comes to it. When it comes to them seeing stuff that is going to be there, they're going to come across it. And like so many of life's pitfalls, but it's drugs, money.

So many of life's pitfalls, it's something that I knew I needed to address. But when I saw what was happening from a society level, and this report came out about other children, I thought, I can't. You know what I said about in 10 years time? Yes. I can't keep quiet about what I suffered, went through and escaped only to save my children

and see what is happening from the prevalence level societally and keep it to myself. And 10 years later, see something that another 12 year old might have fallen into and is now 22, right? And has been their life and not speak up about it. And in many ways, I was so scared about bringing this to the table today because I know it's going to make a lot of people uncomfortable. Talked about living life by society's rose. And that's exactly where I was going to go is, why do you believe you telling your truth will make so many people uncomfortable? This is, I believe, one of the biggest problems we have

societally. There is such a prevalence, and I know that nobody, certainly nobody in my position, would ever think it wild enough to bring it to the table because of the perception, because of the risk of reputation, because of the risk of life as they know it being over. I knew I had to do this today because, Paul, this is me putting my life as it is on the line to save my children and to guide anybody else's children going into a world

where at their fingertips they can fall into something that they never asked to. When we hear that 60% of children are finding it accidentally, that it's cropping up on iPads that societally, it's just so normal. It is. You know, my youngest, who's 11, but when he was 10, was sent a message in a group, a group chat, another friend. our friend of his. Yeah.

Just send a message in. Yeah. 10. Yeah. Exposed. That's it. Yes. And if we leave it,

what's going to happen is these children start self-educating. Because it's too sensitive to touch. We know they're kind of doing it, but we don't want to discuss it. So what happens is these children are going to start sharing it between themselves. You're right. Most of it happens on social media. On social media. 80%.

You know, into your point of, We don't want to discuss. This is what blows my mind. But also, I can understand. When I say, understand it's because talking to people, a UK study found that 20% of parents thought that children should never be taught about adult content. Right. Right.

So they're saying, don't even talk about it. Just, shh. Let's pretend it's not happening. Wow. Isn't there something? I think when you understand, you know, I was that kid, there is an aptitude for children to want to do the thing that they're told not to do, to find a way around.

And there was an online safety bill passed early this year that set in these age restrictions for online content on internet browsers. that you have to be 18 and you've got to age verify or it might be AI or you might have to put a mobile check in at the same time the VPN rates went through the roof absolutely to avoid to avoid yeah and by the way you search how to get around online restrictions and the internet will tell you how and i felt so sad because i knew that most people would think that was the issue solved that there was almost i don't have to talk about it now we don't have to discuss because it's been sorted out for us but there is such a prevalence in about it

within an adult world but you mentioned about it sharing on WhatsApp yes i watch adolescence recently that film changed a conversation about what it means to be a young boy to be an angry or lost or broken young boy. I spoke with Ashley Walters before earlier this year and asked him about how much of an issue. And that Ashley was such a kind friend to allow me to bring this up that he and the team understand this to be one of the catalysts to a lack of meaning that a lot of boys have in their life. because it's expected of them. And so they're going to discover this stuff.

All children are going to discover this stuff because it just exists. And the longer we leave it untouched, the more we're allowing these children to discover it themselves and educate themselves from a reference point that we know isn't going to serve them or serve anybody else going forward. I've just read and learned so much

from so many amazing people. Jason Wilson? Yes. Yes. He wrote this book, The Man the Moment Demands and he does such amazing work for young boys. He said this thing that really struck me that we can't let children just be. It's too dangerous. We can't let them figure it out themselves because left to their own devices.

You know the book Lord of the Flies when all the children land on the island? Absolutely, absolutely. chaos and issues. Because in that world of unrestricted adult content, Jason says this, what are we prepared to live with? Are we prepared to receive a call that our children have been struggling with something

so much that it did something to harm themselves or someone else? Yes. And that's where I wanted to ask you, the stakes, so that everyone understands fully what we are contending with. So when you even think about your experience, how did this addiction impact to you emotionally,

but then also your relationships? In many ways, Paul, it was the first relationship I ever had. It was a thread. It was always a thing that I returned to. It was always the thing that I felt you can't be rejected. You can't be rejected. And as I think about myself as a young person, like I said, I had these places to feel alive.

I had my sport and I had my stage and thank goodness. Because if I didn't, where's the hope? In those moments I felt hopeless. I felt so worthless. I felt like I was disgusting. I felt like there was a shame that no man could ever know about me, about something that I fell into.

And now is a crutch that I'm hanging on throughout my life. And I'm so grateful for, I'm so grateful for my upbringing, for the women who have shaped me, who brought me up. Because I see this conflict left to its own devices. You start seeing that virtual world as your reality.

It becomes an adaptation that you see, that you see as your own truth, as your own personality. And let me tell you this as well, Paul, there is something that I have watched change in this 30 years about this content. The commissioners report told us that it is normal for this content to be violent. It's normal for children to see violent adult content.

Everybody has spoken to was that to be different. But what I have watched over 30 years, let alone going from analog and magazines to VHS to DVD to online and to smartphones. And I am not the person to want to speak for or against the industry. This is just the experience of what I watched. There has been a shift in what is acceptable. And it's so important to know that what we might think about these images, it's worse. what is out there. It used to be hidden behind a search engine or something.

Now it's there. It's on social media. 45% of it is found on Twitter, by the way. Really? Yeah. Oh, my goodness. There are so many, there's so much information about how more people watch adult images than Netflix and Amazon combined.

This is something that is something so normalized amongst us, but we don't want to deal with. We don't want to talk about the connotations about what it means for us, what it means for the diet that our children are living through. So what should parents be telling their children, and then for anyone who is an adult struggling with this addiction, what would you suggest to them?

For the adult with the addiction, and I think this from that individual, but also societally, that we cannot change the behavior until we admit what's happening. And this has happened in so many other of life's pitfalls, there is drink or drugs or food disorders. We brought these things that used to be incredibly taboo to the table and it's allowed people to understand

that there is a problem. And for that individual, the only way you can start healing is admitting and understand that there is a problem. And for me, finally, it took me 30 years, two deaths and a divorce, to finally go, here's what's happening. It doesn't have to be like that for everybody.

And when I started sharing this burden with my friends, the people that I thought my family, before I spoke to you, Paul, my mom, who at 40, was finally able to have the conversation I wanted to have when I was 14, the people that love you will support you and that there is nothing to be ashamed of

that you're not alone that there are so many people going through the same thing and when my therapist told me that everything changed I was finally able to find the strength to create lasting change

because there's this gap in addiction where you think that there's no purpose, you have to find a reason to not. And left on its own, there's no reason, because it's the thing that gives you the escape, it gives you the pleasure, it gives you the relief, which means. I think for parents, I think for parents,

I just want to change the conversation around it, Paul. I really want to give other caregivers and parents the opportunity to lean into the difficult conversation because I think about that traditional idea of sex education that right now kids are being educated at 14 at school in my case I've had five years of exposure to a world that nobody is discussing exactly it's it's outdated well well said it's it's this common theme I've seen among having stronger relationships whether it's romantic whether it's family whether it's social

whether it's professional. It's always about the willingness to have the hard conversations, the willingness to be inconvenient. And to your point about Jason, is to inconvenience yourself. Yeah. But also what you just said was beautiful

is that if you are struggling with this addiction, there are people who love you, who will always love you. They'll love you through the battle, and they will battle with you. Yeah. I have a surprise for you. You do?

So I'm going to play this, and hopefully this, you can hear it. Wait how I even start? You probably don't even know, because you're always so nice and you say that, you know, I taught you to dance. But it's the other way around. You've changed my life. And I'm now doing the things that I'm doing because I danced with you. And the things that you taught me, how to be grateful for the situations that you're in and that you find yourself

because maybe at that point in my dance career, you know, I'd done the competition world, but you were so grateful to be on the show and that was why you put your heart and soul into every step and into every rehearsal that we did. And I'm telling you now, your wonderful sister and your father are looking down and I'm being so flipping proud of you.

Like, I remember, your dad used to cut out every single little clipping of anything that you did. And I'm telling you now, he's still doing it. He's still doing it up there. Every little newspaper clipping, every little interview or anything that you do, he's still making a little mood border, a little thing all about your little scrapbook all up there. I'm so proud of you and what you're doing for yourself and for others. And I'll just leave you with this.

want to change the world there's nothing to eat I love you that woman changed my life and she changed the course of it and you know what I love you Joanne thank you

one let me say this is Joanne Clifton right you're strictly partner that was one of the most beautiful messages I've ever heard and how she's so perfectly articulated your life and what you stand for. And she ended exactly with what you've said

with so many people who are struggling. And that is, is the people who love you will love you regardless. They will love you regardless. I have another surprise for you. Quick one. Go on. Good one. And if all of them today. Full of them have to. You're here. You're here. I love you for that, man. So this is a photo. I would love for you to look at this photo. and just tell me how do you feel looking at the photo? What feeling comes over you? Okay? Okay. That's your mom. And who's that with your mom?

That is one year old me. It's one year old orie. I was with her yesterday. She is the most incredible, strong, guiding force of nature. I think for me to believe that the key kid that I was was so worthless, was so, would be so dismissed by the person that loved me the most to finally understand after swimming through a river of pain that they accept me for I am in all my broken bits. That's the biggest blessing. And so I cherish every moment I have.

I don't know how long I've got, we don't know how long we've got with these people. But we have to show up as ourselves. And only when we accept ourselves can we allow other people to accept who we are. Yes. And that's when you start living the best life. Yes, yes. I can see the unconditional love that you have for your mother. I can see what she means to you. I can see that you have a totally different understanding and perspective of the life that she lived. It's almost like you extended grace.

I mean. Because you didn't, yeah, you had no idea of the circumstances that she was going through. No idea. Yeah. And we've had, you know, we talked about the fact that we will never understand each other's lives. We will never, I cannot understand how this woman lived through what she lived through from what I saw, let alone what happened before it.

And it was only because of what. we lost that I want I want to change that yes it's not the person we can change the behavior and in changing that behavior and coming to my mom and saying this is who I am yes I want you to love me as I am you're my mom and everything started to change and we have the I could tell her everything I've told her I've told her everything I've told her everything Everything. Everything. Stuff I want to talk about at 16, 17, 17 years old.

See, I think that is so beautiful. You think about this woman, culturally, as an age, from a religious perspective, this is not someone that you can, I can finally come to stuff with my mom and go. And do you know what she does, Paul? She doesn't understand everything that I'm saying, but she listens. There you go. She hears me. There you go.

To me, that is the most profound way to show love. is to hold space for someone's truth. And you don't have to fully understand it all, but you have to ensure that that person knows you're not going anywhere. Yeah. And your mom is not going anywhere. I hope so.

She's not going anywhere, right? She's got you. She's not you. So everyone gets the last question. The question is, out of all of the conversations that you've had throughout your life, Which one is the most memorable and who was it with and what did you learn?

I've had so many. I know. I've had so many. But I've got to say that having the chance to speak to my sister about who they were, about the struggles that they had lived through, but through all of that pain and suffering that they were able to find so much life in themselves and in other people. And in so many ways, Paul, I wish my sister could meet this guy because I would not be here if it wasn't for them.

And whilst it's too late for that, it's not too late for the rest of us. And I just know that none of this matters because it could always be over tomorrow. And so what are we going to do? We have to step into ourselves. Your story reminds me of what I believe is perhaps one of the biggest issues that we have as a society. And that is oftentimes people talk about cognitive dissonance, this whole notion of we believe that we value a certain thing, believe a certain thing. Believe a certain thing, but we show up differently.

There's an incongruence of who we actually are and what we do and how we show up in the world. And this is what most of us face. But there was a psychologist, Carl Rogers, who talked about the way to get to the highest level of happiness and wellness. And you know what way that is? You know what path that is? congruence. Right.

Which is knowing exactly what you believe and what you value and showing up in that exact way. Yeah. And what I feel for you, especially in this moment, is now, after this conversation, what you've shared, you are living lockstep in congruence. So let me tell you, life can only get better. I hope so. It can only get better for you because you were full. living in your truth. And that is all we can, any of us can ask for. And so I want to say, for me, not only am I incredibly proud of you, not only do I believe what you've just said

will change lives, but I believe your sister, Lola, I believe your father watching down on you, I believe that he's proud as well. And I believe they are proud as well. And I think you need to take that. Because what Joanne said about how he was clipping, the articles, I said, no, that man loved his son. Yeah, I know. That man loved his son.

I appreciate that, man. I appreciate it. I am. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Here we go. Oria Tuba.

O'Rea Duba. O'Re and his sister, Lola, both were struggling with living their true self and their true, their truth. And O'Re, I think, did a great job of pointing back to their childhood as one of the reasons for that struggle. And he really painted this picture on how he learned very early to mask. and become someone who he wasn't, but who would be easily accepted in society. And that duality is something that I believe many of us struggle with.

When I think about love, love begins with curiosity and not judgment. And I would hope that everyone views what Oray just said with curiosity. with curiosity and not judgment. And curiosity requires us to look beneath the surface. It's important to understand that addictions are mental health challenges, and categorically we should look at them this way, which means that no addiction deserves to be prioritized. It's ultimately about what the addiction is doing to you.

I can't imagine how you negotiate that. Here's the public-facing self that you know is a fabrication, and then you have your private self that you are ashamed of. It's no way to live. 30 years. It's no way to live your life. And at the very end of our conversation, he did mention how he felt lighter. he is unsure of what the world holds for him,

but he's more sure of how he is going to show up in the world. And that's the position that he's been fighting for his entire life. So I'm so proud that he's arrived at this place today. You can't reason with the sun. Trust us. We've tried. This summer, it's time to put that angry ball of fire on mute. Columbia's Omnishade Technology is engineered to protect you from the sun's harsh rays that can burn and damage your skin. The sun is relentless, but so is our gear.

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