We Need To Talk with Paul C. Brunson - This Is What They Made Me Do! We're Talking Women in the Music Industry

Episode Date: December 4, 2025

Paul sits down with Cher Lloyd, Myleene Klass and Estelle to hear the truth about working in the music industry. This is not one to be missed! (00:00) Intro (00:41) Cher Lloyd Talks Being Sexualised in the Music Industry (08:34) Myleene's Experience of the 'Wild West' Music Industry (23:46) Estelle's Experience as a Black Female Artist in the UK Music Industry Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Good sleep is everything. That's why Ali's science back support is made with a blend of melatonin and L-thianine for both kiddos and grown-ups. So when your mind won't switch off, you've got something that can help. You're racing thoughts and restless nights won't stand a chance. Find Ollie's sleep solutions for the whole family at ollie.com. That's OLLL-Y.com. Hello and welcome to We're Talking. The music industry can be dazzling, but behind the spotlight, it's often

a battle to be seen, heard, and respected. In this episode, Estelle, Mylene, class, and Cher Lloyd open up about the realities of being women in music, from breaking through the noise to surviving the pressure and reclaiming their voices along the way. In the music industry, it's tough, especially then, right? And I say especially then, because it's tough now. I think, you know, we often hear people. say, oh, you know what, women are on the rise, like women. Yes, but we still live in a patriarchy.

And you think 2010, you know, during doing research for this, I went back and I looked at interviews, some of the questions, not so many of the questions that you got. It's like you would never have received those questions if you were a man. I wish I had a list of the things they used to ask me, because they'd just be in sight. Yeah, I mean, what are some of them? that you were asked, that you know would never be asked today. Off the top of my head, oh, I'd have to put myself in that dark place again. Do you know what? I've gone blank. It's another place that you've said.

I do that. I do that. Yeah, I don't even want to go back there. I'm like, oh. Yeah. Because they used to ask me the most horrible, ugh, questions. I never felt like it was about my task. it. Yeah. Well, I tell you, from my observation, some of the questions that I saw that you would get, a lot was about you dating. Always.

Yes. Always. So it wasn't, you know, what's the next album? What's the next song? Are you touring? It is, well, who are you with? Who are you with? Who you seeing? Yes. You know, we saw you pictured with this person. Are you guys hooking up? I didn't care about men or boys at that time. I did not care about. men at all I was there to be a star to have an opportunity to share my voice and yeah it was always questions like that towards the girls the girls yes and it felt like there was this emphasis for the girls to be sexualized hugely and I would

imagine that there was enormous pressure on you yes Absolutely. Even at the tender age of 16 years old. I'd be dressed in outfits that I don't feel were appropriate. That wasn't appropriate. I've always dressed a little bit masculine. That's just how I always like to dress. I like baggy clothes. You know, I love trainers, chunky boots.

I'm not much of a heel person. But some of the outfits that they put forward, for me to wear, I'd be like, my dad will go crazy if I wear that. He will not be happy with that. Yes. That's not appropriate. I was a child. But you're still being asked to do it, and is the thought,

dress like this, sell more albums, or dress like this? Of course. Okay. But that's been that way forever, and it's still around now. It's still around now. I could tell you the craziest stories of the stuff that's been said. to me or the things have been taken away because I refused to go and hook up with people. Like what? What's been taken away?

So I remember once while I lived in the US and I was promoting my album in the US. I walked into the record label at the time and they hadn't give me a promotional budget to promote this album that's, you know, we've spent millions on this album. but there's no budget to go get people to hear it. Right. So I walk in and I say, look, I really need some cash to try and push this record, basically told no. But what I needed to do to make this record take off is hit some of the clubs and they'll find

out where Bieber is and I should go try and get with him. With Justin Bieber? Yes. Now this is going back years ago. Years ago. I was a teenager, but I was very much with my husband at that time. He was even stood in that office. While I was told they weren't going to spend any money on the album, pushing the album,

that I was to go hook up with someone mega famous and basically leach off the back of someone else's fame. Was I not good enough? Was I not good enough to invest in that you would rather use me in that way? Yeah. You know, so this is not, to me, it's not, like, one is it's super bizarre, crazy, horrendous. Yeah. Doesn't feel far-fetched for the industry.

No. But what seems wild is your husband was in the room. Yeah. They didn't care. In fact, I remember. Me and Craig were about to get married and I was told by people on my team do not let the label know because they will do anything to stop this marriage. Because the way that they thought about me getting married is that once I'm married, I'm off the market. Okay.

I hate that. I hate that. because I'm not a singer because I want to sleep around. Right. And I want to be in different celebrity relationships. I met a guy when I was 17 and I'm married to him now, have been for the last 11 years. I had no intention of leaching onto males, male singers, to try and gain a career. I'm not interested.

Wow, the fact that they, like, I didn't even really. that they would be so direct about it. I thought they would just maybe set it up, but they were saying, go do that. Were there other male singers they were saying, try to go after this person? It was whoever was hot at the time. So for example, they said,

go to the club, find Justin Bieber, go talk to him. Is the idea, we just need to get this photo of the two of you, or do you believe that they wanted something else? They wanted you to do something else? Well, it's that typical major label vibe. So not to put words in your mouth, but what I'm reading is you're saying it's easier for you to go have relationships. Of course. All types of relationships, whatever that may be.

Yeah. And then that story seeks so much attention that it helps to boost your brand. Yeah. And that was the sentiment. That was it. That was the theory behind getting me to go and do that. It sounds like you're saying this happens, this is happening and it happens over and over again. Oh, yeah. Of course. I've gone into labels where they've told me that my skirt's not sure enough.

As a teenager. Literally a teenager, you need to show a little more skin. What do you mean to show a bit more skin? Right. That's gross. I'm not selling... Right. I'm selling music. and I'm a human being.

You know, like, I don't... That feels gross. You said this place was steps from the water. We just haven't found the steps yet. How much did we save? Enough. Enough to get lost! Or you could book a stay with Hilton.

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You can have a mate who's like, oh, do you know what, my brother drives cars? And suddenly, the next thing you know, he's the driver, next thing you know, he's the tool manager, suddenly you can work your way up in a very different manner. You don't know, no one's DBS checked. Nobody's, there's nothing. Right.

It's just, it's not like, hi, I'm a brain surgeon. I'll have a go. Right. It's a very different set of rules and operational skills. The music industry is the Wild West. Yes. Now, when did you first recognize it was the Wild West? Because I would imagine that when you enter the show, you're still somewhat guarded.

You're very optimistic about what's going to happen. You don't know how large you're going to be. And then as the notoriety comes, that's when graph that's when um should i say uh leeches come oh yeah right but what was the first moment where you realized oh my god what am i doing here what's going on what what is this i mean there was so many of those epiphanies that it was just relentless i think it was what the gloves came off when anyone could say anything they wanted to about your families i found information where they were trying to find out about my family in the Philippines,

you know, really digging deep. And you are then answerable to all those people. You have a responsibility. So you're not now just singing pure and simple of all three and a half minutes of it on stage and learning the dance routines. You're now trying to look after your family. There's people coming out that suddenly they need money.

I mean, I never knew I had so much family. They were suddenly like... Interesting. So people coming out the woodwork, the woodwork too. Oh, yeah, better friends that you hadn't spoken to, everybody, you know. And it's a lot, it's a lot for young minds to deal with. Yes. On top of the constant scrutiny, the body image scrutiny, the sexuality, who you're with,

who you're not with, what you said, what you didn't say. So who do you trust at this time? Only each other. Only each other. I mean, my hands are tied because there's so much I would love to say to you but obviously there was other forces at play as well with phone-tappings and things

but I guess you can move between the lines that the only time we can really be really safe is when we're just talking to each other but then you imagine five of us trauma-bonded all going through the same thing all terrified that each other's secrets or family secrets or worries or woes And sometimes those stories would be fake.

Sometimes those stories would be planted. Sometimes those stories, yeah, are used to cover up something else. Like you never know what's true. Well, you've got to remember, no agent is a lone shark. All agents, you know, they might have other bands. So all you need to do if you really want to start getting into it is match up which agent has which bands. And match up which person got protected. And suddenly it all starts to make sense.

And then suddenly you start realizing, well, who is. who's playing what, which role, yeah. So is it, did you feel protected during that time? We were not protected. We were not protected. We were almost bait, I would say. I have been screwed over by agents, managers, dodgy accountants. Can we talk about the end of the group before it disbanded?

Yeah. Because it was one thing that I read is that, you know, there were moments where you were touring and, as you said, it's people, it's thousands upon thousands showing up, cheering you on. Yeah. But then there were moments towards the end where there weren't cheers

all the time. No. I remember someone throwing chicken chameen at me. That's how the racism came back in again on stage. Things like that. Yeah.

Or nobody showing up, no manager, no tour manager. I remember my brother because he wasn't old enough to drive, getting on his bike

to drop off a DAP tape so that we could perform. So the Greek could perform. I got told by my manager because I said the backdrops really creased what are we going to do

and he went you're going to have to iron it have you ever seen how big a backdrop is literally you're going to have to iron it I'm like where are you

turned out he was where he shouldn't have been so that I had a phone call from his wife that's how hearsay ended it fizzled it just was left it was left to die

I close down I turned the lights out literally I literally turned the lights out and it was heartbreaking because at the time I didn't want it to end. It was, we took a vote.

Everything was about a vote. And I've made peace with it now because I realized that we're all kids. None of us, none of us were in control of it. But I didn't want it to end. But the vote was yes. And I remember walking into a meeting where one guy said, we've got 250,000 Easter eggs with your faces on them. What are we going to do?

I was like, I don't know. Like, it was almost, it was almost comical. What I haven't got an answer yes as to what you're going to do with 250,000 but I can imagine because if I'm on the receiving end now and I've put all my money into this group and they can't get their act together and I've invested all this money and Easter's on the way then but but how does the group go on this demise so quickly because so I understand the pressure being placed I understand that the agents are not consistent I understand all of those aspects but at the same time it was like it was a consistent hits, the debut album reached number one and sold over a million copies. So you were red hot. The group was red hot. How does it fall off so quickly? I think we just didn't have anyone who was solidifying us as a group.

So at the time, it's the same old story, but it was major mismanagement. because as a mum now, I know that you have to rally the troops. Yes. And if you've got people going off in different directions, as a mom, someone's got to bring you all back together and go, right, this is what we're doing.

This is when we're doing it. What does the group need? You're only as strong as the weakest performer person, personality, whatever's going on there with that person, and in that moment, you carry them. And when I look back at what was going on, we were not a solid human. it and we were not being encouraged to be either.

So if there was a cheeky booking here and there was a shoot here well if I'm the manager and I'm like well let's bring in the money I'd just send everyone out on all of these separate gigs and in so doing you then cause division in the ranks. Everyone had come from humble beginnings

not one person in that band had some privileged upbringing and so that was taken advantage of and rather than seeing the power of the group we were divided. I see. Can you disclose how much you made during that period? It's not a patron one I make now because it was split between five, the band, then it was split with the manager six, then it was split the record company, seven, then it was split with

the TV company, eight, then you bring in tax. I mean, all those people that were trying to take advantage of us, they did it with our time and our image, and they obviously took their cup, but We weren't making the amount of money that people think we were. I mean, we've just talked about a lot of challenging moments, right, in that 18 months. But I would imagine there were some incredible moments. Oh, dear, we sang with Simon. Steve Wanda. We sang with Lionel Richie.

Did you? We sang with Lionel Richie. Oh, my gosh. He walked out on stage, and one of us cried. We were just, I was just, it's Arnold Richie. It's like, I played the piano for Shook a card. It's like, you know, all the things you dream of doing, and then you're doing them. Yes.

It's just magical and that's what makes it worth it. What was the most? I mean, performing with Lano Ritchie playing for Shakka Khan. I mean, those are up there. Was there anything that you think this is what I will tell my grandchildren this moment? Okay, so the very first concert that I ever went to was my own and it was at Wembley. So when I said, hello Wembley, I couldn't even get the words out because it was just magic. And then this piano rises up from the floor and I play the piano.

Because I'm not, you know, I'm not naturally the best anything. I know that. I get that about myself. It's fine. I'm very, very lucky. And with the luck and those opportunities that I've been able to line up, I've just carried on working through it through the pain, through the hours. I'm a cart horse. I make up for those failings in being a cart horse.

Interesting. So even in hearsay, you didn't find yourself to be particularly great. I just thought you were what? Really lucky. Really? Yeah. Yes.

You didn't consider yourself talented? I think I have a talent for sure. but I'm very aware that there are incredible talents out there. But you didn't consider yourself talented? I think I have talent for sure. But all the things that I've done, when you put them all together, you know, I get to do so many jobs. You know, in one day I look at all the mixture of jobs.

I never wanted an office job. I have friends who want the stability of it. And that to me is the thing that would suffocate me. I love difference. I get bored very quickly. I find it hard to be satisfied. And I get to do all of those things. And I still, maybe it's imposter syndrome,

but I do still feel like, oh my God, this is incredible. I'm so lucky. That you're so lucky. This is interesting because I've asked a few times, it sounds like you can't say the words that you felt as if you were talented. You were lucky.

You were at the right place at the right time. That's true. All those things are... There's always an Asian that can do better. There is. It's just, it's true. It is true. But it's funny because when I meet other people who come along and they're often my producers who...

Yeah. I've written this song. But you did not find yourself... You didn't believe that you were talented at that time in that group. I didn't feel that I had the more popular attributes that the band had. Yeah. Like, you know, they were funnier than me. They just had that sort of swagger.

That's not sort of, it wasn't my background. It wasn't. No. Did you at all feel like you were going through imposter syndrome? Yeah. I've got it every day. Every day. Yeah.

On stage? God, I remember finding out what a tax write-off was. And I remember thinking most of hearsay was a tax write-off. I'm like, God, any minute they're going to just go, oops. They made a mistake. Yeah. Yeah. Really?

Yeah. Well, Aline, really? Yes. When you reflect back and look at it, do you feel like you were, did you deserve to be there? Looking back now, I'm like, do you think, like, God, I was there, yeah. I's definitely earned my stripes and I definitely did the time. But at the time, I remember thinking it was just, it was so magical and so everything that I'd ever dared to dream of.

I couldn't believe it. Wow. Okay. Just a few more in here, say, we'll move on. Are you in touch with any of the band members today? We do go through peaks and troughs and flurries for sure. I mean, it's 25 years ago. So some more than others for sure.

I think it's almost a bit like an office. It was like an office job from 25 years ago, which is sad, really. because we went through so much. So, yeah, of course, we, you know, when big things happen, we all jackling on each other. Okay. Will we ever have a hearsay reunion?

Funny, because I've learned now, I keep on saying, never say never, but you never know now. You never know. Well, if I say no, then this will be the, this will be played out across the arena. See, I like already, you said arena. Well, I've got to think big. I've got to put us there.

I've got to give us a running jump. Yes, I like it. So never say never. There could be. You never know. Before I would have been a definitive. It's never going to happen. I'm sure they would have been the same.

But I think as you get older, you just realize, you know, you'll grow up and you just think, who knows? Who knows why we'll be in the same room again together or for what reason? But again, I don't know. I actually don't know. Yes, yes.

So I see this. five years coming up. Exactly. I mean, nothing's planned. But people are interested in the diaries. People are interested in, very interested in the diaries. I think there must be some people very scared as well. Yeah, I managed to.

Rightly so. Can you give us any taste of what you have in the diaries? Because I think that there will, to your point, there are people who will be scared. But in guarding those names, what's in the diaries everything everything I mean

the lawyers saw the diaries and then they sort of redacted everything and then it was like just being given a black piece of paper with just three

four words sometimes just they were like this is just libelous I'm not sitting here gatekeeping I just don't need to get sued by every

80s pop star that made a move on us or Okay. Every manager that thinks they might be in there. But, you know, the people that are being even now outed for their behavior. Yes. Nobody is shocked ever, are they?

The UK then and even now is such a huge music market. Like in the research, I was seeing, it blew me away. The U.S. is the biggest market. Japan is the second biggest. And then the UK is the third, right, in terms of domestic markets around music. So the UK, huge market. Lots of genres popping off in the UK, incredible artists popping off in the UK. But when I look back and when I read and research, it feels like black women in music, there has been the lowest of low ceilings place.

And we've had Jamelia on, you know, when I look at careers like Ms. dynamite's career. And I think, well, one is, is this is just me saying this? Or do you believe that there was a very low ceiling placed on black women in music in the UK? They just didn't expect us to do shit. And that's the frustration of it all because we had, we have very high expectations. And why not? The worthiness of my dreams is not based on anybody else's version of events, you know?

So when I'm shooting for the stars, I'm going to go get that. You know, get out the way. It was always my thought. If you're not the one, get out of my way. Let me go find the person. You know, let me go find the thing. Or let me go get to the thing myself. But there was a lot of very much in your face.

Like, why are you even bothering? I have people who, and black people who thought, who would actively say she's a waste of money and then be at the shows clapping for me at the Mobos. You know, to my face, two people around me. And I was just like, why are you, like, you go away. go sit down somewhere with your waste of time. So, like, it was a lot of, like, don't even, you're not as good as you're never going to be

as good as. And I saw it being leveled at the black women who were trying things. And I think I came in via hip-up. So I managed to dodge some of it. Interesting. But even when I got there, it was still a good amount of people like, why are you bothering? What's your plan here? Like, you've done it with the 18th day now.

Go sit down and go find something to do. I was just like, well, I ain't start with you, so I'm for sure not listening to a thing you have to say. Yeah. But why was it so? I mean, I could come up with probably 50 different reasons, but you were in it. Like, why was it so?

Why were people saying, you're a waste of money. Why? I can't call it. I feel like it's self-hate to a degree. And I just, I don't know what anybody else has been through. And I don't like to call people's experiences shit. but I don't know I just feel like it's very weird to discourage somebody from dreaming it's very weird to do everything you can do

to try and knock down their version of greatness it's a very weird approach to have in life but there are a lot of people who do it I think and also I think they do it to be seen as like like cool and in the in the boys club or in the in the crew of people who are you know whatever they want to be in whatever department that they rep or whatever label they rep or whatever company they rep. And it's just wildly just, it's hate.

It's just being a hater, essentially. I can't call why. I think there's just like a ceiling of like you've done enough. Energy of like you, that's okay, but don't go too much. Yes. You know that? Yes. I remember her name when she did that poem on the Beyonce album.

She was like, they teach you to just do enough. Like, don't be too much. It's okay. Like, it's okay, just. Yeah, just stay at that level. Yeah. And I was always, I, I believed and lived the exact poem my whole life.

Like, why? Like, why do I have to stay at your level? Who's, who dictated that? Like, what's like what's like I'm doing me? Right. That's your business. Is, is this one of the reasons why, or should I say, a main reason why,

why you left? For sure. I saw, well, the main fundamental reason was I was assigned to the U.S. I was signed to the U. U.S. Okay. After I asked the UK company to let me go.

Because I believe in myself. I signed to Atlantic U.S. and I didn't think anything of it more than I was like, well, I guess I'm going to have to be out there now, you know? When I was with my label in the UK, it was a lot of support and equally a lot of like, okay, well, she's done it. You know, we gave it the shot. I think part of why this time was like,

staying cooling on the cusp. It's a business, I get it. You want to sign the hottest thing on the street. And at the time, it was like, yeah, she's the name. And even as much as I was the name, it was like, I would go to the labels and they were like, we don't get it. And then I see demo for any other British female or anything. And I'd be like, that I sound like my record.

And they pop, they blow, and they big in the charts. And I'm like, I know I have something. I know I have something. So the opportunity came for me to learn the business. And I realized the route I took was so that I could have a clear blueprint for my own career. Okay. Being independent, knowing how to do it by myself, knowing how to, like, do everything from press up vinyl to organize the interview. Knowing how to go and get it, play the radio, watching and seeing all of the things,

couldn't have happened if I'd have just signed straight to a label. Okay. And just, psh, psh. Okay. I had to go through all of that. I'm doing it now. You know, with my new album, I've been doing it for the past 12 years by myself, by myself, with my team.

Yeah. But you're leading it. I'm leading it, yeah. But I could never have the confidence to do that if I had to did it back then because they kept saying no. And then when they finally said yes and we had success, they still said no. Right. I was just like, I'm sick of the no.

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