We Need To Talk with Paul C. Brunson - We Staged Our Paparazzi Photos And Split The Money! We're Talking Reality TV "Villains"

Episode Date: June 11, 2026

Spencer Pratt and Harry Jowsey pull back the curtain on the reality TV machine. Spencer reveals how The Hills changed television forever, the truth behind reality TV villains, staged paparazzi moments, and the strategy that made him one of the most talked-about figures of the 2000s. Harry shares what really happens behind the scenes of shows like Too Hot To Handle, how contestants chase screen time, the psychological impact of life in a reality TV bubble, and the tactics he used to turn a dating show into a global career. This is a candid look inside reality TV, fame, villain edits, producer manipulation, social media stardom, and what it really takes to stay relevant once the cameras stop rolling. We're Talking Reality TV "Villains" (00:00) Intro (00:27) How Real Was The Hills? (01:16) How Spencer Landed The Hills (03:56) The Peak of Spencer’s Fame (08:40) Spencer’s Reality TV Legacy Explained (10:26) Why The Hills Came to an End (11:15) Does Spencer Regret The Hills? (12:43) Spencer’s Role in Kardashian Success (16:46) What Harry Wanted From Too Hot to Handle (22:29) Why Harry Thrives on Reality TV (25:00) How Reality TV Supercharged Harry’s Fame Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

I saw my friend on the other side of the street. I was heading to school with the kids. I let go of mom's hand to wave. I had already forgotten their lunches. I ran over to hug her. She came out of nowhere. And then... It stopped.

Sometimes the moments that never happen matter most. Volvo's automatic emergency braking helps ensure a safe ending for everyone. Learn more at volvocars.caps.caps.ca. Welcome to We're Talking. In this episode, Spencer Pratt and Harry Jousy pull back the curtain on the reality TV machine, from staged storylines and villain edits to the strategy behind turning screen time into fame. I feel like the hills blurred this line between, is it real? It's like it ushered in what we call now structured reality.

Right. I think it was like the first prominent show to do that. So what I'm wondering is that when you were going into a scene, how structured was the scene? How produced was the scene? Heidi, her first season, she was as real as can be no struck doing, you know, maybe they structured her job and put her in the school that she couldn't afford, even though they had LC.

They paid for LC's and then it made it so Heidi couldn't afford it. So she had to drop out. And kind of without Heidi knowing, they were structuring being, And, you know, so she wasn't in play on it. I mean, this is a blow on my mind because even you getting into the show, you orchestrated that. There's so many people that you could go right now and go have dinner with them, witnesses, with the whole plan. And it went too far, obviously, because as you get deeper, you're like, you know, you've got to keep pushing the envelope of making TV. And as a real person, you're now sabotaging your existence.

Yes. You know, that's why I never, you know, even though when I lost the plot, I didn't lose the plot. Because I, it was the same path I always plan to go down. You got to be the Simon Cowell. And I didn't watch whatever Simon Cowell was. I'm like, who's Simon Cowell? Everybody hates him. I was like, that's easy.

I should have known, but I was dumb. The Simon Cowell can be that because he's telling people that suck at something, the truth. And sometimes the truth comes off, ah, like, but he's still telling you, don't quit your day job because he knows you got no chance. So I didn't have that grounding for my behavior, so it didn't let the audience be like, oh, he's just doing that because people believe the show was real.

So when you said it was the first, where people were like, is it real? I never experienced anybody to this day. People are finally now like, oh, reality. But at the time, nobody thought it was fake. Right. Yeah, yeah. No, no, I'm with you.

Oh, yeah. It was like, I remember when I used to watch wrestling when I was a little boy, I was like, oh, this is real. Like, you know, WWF, like, I was like, this is real. It wasn't until much later. I was like, oh, my God, they're staging all this. I think it was the same way with The Hills. It was. Yeah.

People took it way too serious. Also, my biggest mistake or not, I never watched one episode until two years ago when I was making, like, some TikTok series where I was showing all the frank and biting. how, if you don't know what Frankenbiting is, it's where right now you can film the back of my head talking to you, and then I'll go do a voiceover, and we put a whole new sentence to what I was saying to you in post. Or I call Heidi right now,

but then they have somebody else on the other end in the footage. So I'm saying all this stuff, oh, Heidi, I love you, so beautiful. And they put some other woman in the edit, and she's like, oh, you shouldn't be saying. So that's the type of stuff. So years later, I was like, I'm going to make a TikTok series, but I didn't even know how bad it was, you know, what they were really doing.

I thought I was the puppet master, but I was just full puppet. You were full. I was getting played. So that was the joke on me. Yeah. And at what moment do you first realize from the public's reaction of how they're seeing you show up,

like your character show up? I remember once we were sitting at, my favorite is now burned down, but Cafe Vita in the Palisades early on. And we were sitting some breakfast, cassidyas, whatever, and a car goes by and all these green girls are screaming, fuck, yeah, look, and I was like, oh, wow. But at the time I was like, dang, I'm so famous.

Like, you know, like, because it was still that type of, that's when you, when people are yelling out at you out of window, you were, like, you did it. You did it. It's the first thing I framed in my room and my church. childhood room was Star Magazine. It was called the Yucco meter and had a meter and it's a yucco. And it was like a cartoon and had my face and I like had it like all max yuck and I like framed it on the wall. I made it. That was you. That was you. So you were proud of that. Oh, do you know how

harder was to get into a tabloid back then? That's what people forget. Tabloids were for movie stars. Okay. Period. Okay. Parasill broke in as a socialite. just looking like a straight billionaire, aris, you know, skinny little dresses looking. That's how she got in. But nobody was on a show just being Joe Schmo, no pun intended, there was a show, Joe Schmo. But, yeah, Joe Schmo wasn't in that place.

So for both, the plan on real life. So I was like, I just hacked in the whole matrix. You made it. Yeah. Now you said, previously you just said, like I lost the plot by you just said, I lost the plot, but I didn't. Walk me through that.

Yeah, I mean, just, I didn't understand, because this is an era where TV aired once, and if you didn't buy the DVDs, you're never seen that again. So my brain and formula never saw streaming, Twitter, TikTok, reels, all these things. My brain never saw that. So I was like, I can do anything every Monday or Tuesday.

You know, this is going to go away. People, I'll be lucky if people remember what happened on this show in that version of entertainment. So my plan went very sideways, realizing now there's this permanent record of this, which, you know, I would have made it out like a bank robber, you know, if the new media platforms didn't exist. Okay. 2006 to 2010. So we're talking what like YouTube is just coming into.

Yeah, nobody's. No one's on any socials. No. I mean, I'm sure if somebody would be like, YouTube's so big, but I didn't have a YouTube account and I'm a TV star, famous. Right. You know.

Right, right. How did it feel for you when you were going around L.A. or traveling the reaction that you were getting? I mean, I was so famous that people when they, I always said that. People can say anything behind it, but when they meet you and you got the, now they say it, the aura or whatever, that fame, power, which was so much more magnified then because of the power of media in the traditional sense. Because now it's so fragmented and it's all over.

There's so many people get there. If you're into this little niche, you're in this little pocket. But this was forced on you. You didn't even, you were had to see my face. You had to see clip. You had no choice. Now you can choose. And so with that power of fame, that energy, out in public, it's like, you know, that's why

my ego was my ego. You couldn't be more famous. I couldn't have been. Right. They're putting our portraits next to Obama in the fanciest restaurant in Beverly Hills. You know, Brad Pitt, Obama. Like, so I'm, I don't care what they're airing on the show. show. Right. So you just, what, because you like that feeling, you then feed into what's happening

on the show even more. Oh, well, I like the feeling of money more. Okay. And without that feeling, that was your goal. Yeah. And so the more of that feeling, the more money that comes. This makes sense. So it's like, and then, and then it goes dark when you find out, oh, the more money, oh, now they're going to cut it off because they don't actually want to pay more money to get that anymore. They can get it cheaper with Jersey Shore. Oh, I see. I see. So I remember I was once, I was listening to some media scholars, and they were talking about a term called meta villainy. Have you ever heard about this? And you know what? You know who they referenced in it? You. I love it. And they said, okay, that you were one of the first people ever on television

to not only play the role of the villain within the show, but then to manipulate the system outside of the show. Well, there was more money actually outside the show for doing these like interviews and, you know, comments in the magazines and so they sell your photos. So maybe not more, but a lot of money. So then you're doing it outside of, you know, in a perfect world, I would have been making so much on the show

that I would have no media. And then in that managing or manipulation or whatever of the system, that involves like calling the paparazzi. I would imagine you called your, like before the paparazzi was showing up themselves, but it sounds like you were calling the podcast. Well, I mean, we made a partnership with them, 50-50.

Did you? Yeah. So we worked, every photo almost from the second Heidi and I met. we were 50-50 with every photos sold and licensed. So I want to say, like, legit millions were made in paparazzi photos. Just paparazzi photos? Of things that we staged with them.

And we'll go get the props and go rent a boat and, like, do the Titanic shot on the front of boat and then open the box to shoes and then, you know, may sell it, you know. Yeah. Wow. You were running it. I mean, that's why I was, that's why I kept going, you know, And then just...

So that how did you... So at what moment did you feel like you lost the plot? Jersey Shore. I mean, it's that simple. Once I saw Jersey Shore come, I was like, game over. And why? Because they were unbelievable. You know, you cannot.

I was the only one with Heidi that cared about trying to make the show good. Everyone else, it was the early, now it's called image crafting. They were all professional image crafters. They were like, we don't want to be like Heidi and Spencer. They did their best to like keep it. Where then you see the Jersey Shore, you got a whole cast that doesn't even need to make it up like Heidi and Spencer. They're just like a tornado.

So the writing's on the wall. Really? Game over. With that being said, where you stand right now, when you reflect back on the hills, just specifically that period, do you have any regrets? Oh, no. I would have gone harder. Would have gone harder? I would have made it so the Jersey Shore, I never would have.

ever even showed up. They wouldn't even have taken the pilot. They'd have been like, we got, we got the Tasmanian devil over here. Like, you know, I got, five more. Yeah, I got too cozy. You know, I like, start phoning it in. You know, even though I look great, like,

I would have, I should have hired my own writers. I should, you know, writes my ideas, bringing some ringers in my clique. You know, I was like, just like getting whoever to film with me, I should have been, you know, like, I had the, I had the, the, The arc. I should have loaded it.

You should have gone up there. I did not think you would say that. Yeah, yeah. How do you, when you look at reality TV now, what I notice, especially with the shows that I do, is I feel like every, not everyone, but there's always multiple people who want to be the villain.

Well, now it's like a spot, you know. Let me tell you, I'd advise them, be careful what you wish for. You know, here's what the problem of being the villain is. the villain when you're part of the like a franchise works if you're just doing a one-off you're going to get those hits you're going to get those views you are going to not get followers because a lot of people do this get followers people when it really comes down to it

people don't follow people they don't like yeah there's people that'll follow to hate and just be like send you know the ghosts follow you to like troll me like but the goal of fame is for people that genuinely like you to want to be connected to you, to want to live through you, through experiences. So if you go on a show, you're going to go on a dating show. You're going to get that boom. A little pop. Everyone's back.

Oh, I saw you in the show. If you want to keep being connected to fame and attention, there's not a, you know, and I learn that the hard way. If you are a villain, but it's from like, like, like heartfeel, like back to Simon Cowell. He was a villain, but it had heart behind it. So, like, if I could go back to being a villain, I would have been way more cautious. Like, you know, who did it great as a villain is like a Scott Dissick.

Yes. People just, he just said what he was thinking. A lot of times it was the truth. You know, he also didn't have them editing against him. It's harder if there was an agenda to like, literally, like, there was a deal in place with LC to make Heidi and Spencer the worst human beings are to keep Elsie going. Oh, really?

Oh, so that's hard to, you know, combat, even if you're strategic. So there's only so much, you know, but if you don't have that type of situation, because that's very rare. Like if you're just going on a one-off. What you just said, I'm literally going to clip and send. Because I see it all the time. What you just said is the gospel is that when you see a lot of these contributors going on these one-off shows.

They want to be the villain because they want the A-storyline. But to your point, no one follows. No one likes that. There's no merchandise or commercial deals that come as a result of that.

So why I play that? But it's so rampant now that I was talking to a producer not long ago, and he said that there are people who teach you to be a villain on reality TV shows. Like there's literally training for it.

You know, again, I'll go for it. I'm also not saying don't do it. Like if you're fine with, you just want to work that angle and, you know, you can worry you and then go to the bad girls franchise. You know, Zeus will take you or whatever. You know, there is... There's a space.

There's somewhere. But I'm just saying if you, if you're not a villain, you know, some people that want to be villain are our villains. Like, you know, you're probably a bad guy. If you want to be a bad guy, you know, I wanted to be rich and I didn't get the choice to be the hero. They were like, you're not coming on. You don't, this show's done.

Like, I was like, oh, this is what I'm going to do. And I saw long-term possibility. Also, my plan worked. I'm going to go on this show, make it so good, they're going to give us our own show, Brody. And what did MTV do? They gave us our own pilot. But we were so good.

My, again, dumb ass was like, no, we're good. We don't want the show that you're giving us on our own. Let's stay on the hills because there was more money now in the hills. but I should have been like, bye, go do my own thing with Brody, build up and get that, you know. Yeah. Can I ask if you can't, how much were you making on the hills? Once it got to like peak, I think it was like 120,000 episode.

120 episode, not bad. You know, but then 120,000 did a lot more in 2008 than what 120,000 does right now. Yeah, not bad. You know, I was just on my own war path. I see it. You know, I would have been, I would have played. I would have played the game. Kim K, another expert at that.

And Kim coming up, seven days a week, meetings, you know, like, look at, everybody who's super successful that I've watched, they work with every, I was just like, Tunnel, yeah. Yeah, and it's like, fair enough. This spring, denim gets a softer, lighter update. Introducing Old Navy's drapey denim wide leg, a new fit that moves with you.

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So when your brand shows up on Spotify, that's who you're talking to. And you're right next to artists like me, Lizzo. So, are you ready to talk to fans? Spotify advertising. You're among fans. So too hot to handle, you don't know what the show is. Do you know what... So what is your objective, though, with the show?

Is it still make my friends laugh? Be a meme. Be a meme. That was a goal. That was it. Yeah, I remember just like, because my friend, my best friend, Christian, who was also from the first show I did, and we're living together. He's like, dude, this meme stuff, that was like early on, it was like, this meme stuff.

Like, if you become a meme, that's the goal. And I'm like, okay, I'm trying to figure out how to become a meme. So I went in with, like, random things to say, and like, a handshake for the boys. Like, it was very strategic. I made the first day with the guys because I was the only one there, oh, I think maybe another guy, but only one there that had done a shot. show before. So I knew at the end of this, we're not going to be friends. We're not going to like each other. We're all big personalities. We're all going back to different parts of the

world. First show with like an international cast, too. So like, I don't really care about these people. So I told all the guys, look, in the interviews, I'm talking shit about you. Just remember that. You're probably going to feel some type way when you like watch it back. So just remember if talk shit about me because I'm going to be going in on you. And they're like, no way, we're all going to be friends. I was like, I promise we won't be. I'm not going to be a friend off this. I've got friends. And I'm good on this. So I think that's what helped me too, because then as soon as they sit down in the interview, they're like, Carrie's dragging me.

I don't even, I probably wasn't even, I was probably crying about something else. So it was just like trying to plant, like just trying to be strategic to make sure that I was guaranteed screen time. Yes. Because you don't know what you get on these shows. You know what one is, thank you for being honest about that. Yeah. You know what I mean? Because, I mean, I've done a million reality TV shows now.

Yeah. Not as the person, but more so as the host, right? Yeah. That's probably way more fun. But what I've noticed is that I feel as if most come in methodical. Yeah. Right. But those who come in most methodical, at least what you do is you set your expectation.

You could get what it is that you need out of it. Yeah. Instead of feeling like you were manipulated. Right. Like when you do a movie or scripted show, you know the screen time you're going to get. I'm in the scene. I'm not in this scene. My shit, I was like, okay, I don't care.

I don't care from, like, regardless of the edit, I've got no choice on that. Or obviously, if I say nice things, nice things will be put in. If I say bad things, bad things will be put in. But I was just like, legitimately, all I want to do is guarantee I'm in the show. Because there were some people there that like fully like, and all these shows of them that just disappear and it comes to the last week. And they're like, oh my God, I have to do something. I have to cause drama or whatever else.

But I also think that if you're going to do a reality show, if you're thinking like that, You can also ruin your chances because you see it as well. People come in and they go in their interview and they're like, okay, I'm thinking about what I'm going to say. The difference with me is I don't care what I'm saying. I'm just going to say how I feel and say whatever else. Like, oh, that guy's got, like, I remember there was a girl. I said you got like chalky teeth and that guy's got like big fingernails.

Like I would literally, whatever I could to like just at least like I want you to get that sound by whatever else. I see a lot of other people that come in with the mentality. I think when I did perfect match, one of the girls was like, this is my rebrand. I'm like, girl, you're on a hookup show. This is your rebrand. It's probably not a good idea. But she would sit then and you can see her like being calculated.

And it just looks like you're lying and being deceitful. I think, too, is that a lot of people don't realize how hard it is, too, for the contributors. Oh, my God. Because to that point is like they take your cell phones. They take everything. Yeah. You're in a bubble. You have the producers in your ear.

You begin to question. Dude. Like, am I thinking this? Is it actually happening? It's crazy. It's mental warfare. It's, and some people really, it's like, you need to never be on a show. Because it's not easy because you actually can't trust anyone.

Like, you don't have your friends, you don't have your family, and you sure as fuck can't trust the producers. Because, like, they're going to say things whether good or bad, it's to benefit the storyline. And it's to get what they need out of you. Like, very, it's very, very fast. Now that I've done a ton of them that I'm like, oh, okay, like, thank God I, like, was carefree early on and, like, didn't really, like, think about anything too much. Because you see other people that, like, will hear something from a producer, like, oh, I don't know if he actually likes you. I think he said something bad to someone else, and then you see him a spiral. Because the thing is, on these shows, is you don't have anything to do but think.

So you're sitting there thinking about everything. It's the worst. It's crazy. It's the worst. You know what's wild about that is everyone talks about how, like, we're so distracted in the world. Yeah. But when you have nothing to do with me, it's the most dangerous thing. The most dangerous, yeah.

Because I remember being on a show and would sit there and would all be like chilling. And then tell me like, the curtain's different today. Or like, I see that they put an extra plant there. I'm like, yo, what the fuck? They're like something's happening today. Like there's an intruder coming. I'm like, is it what? Like, yeah, there's a bombshell because there's a new pot plant.

Right. And they were like, yeah. No, the chef didn't put out orange juice of salient for breakfast. someone here. Someone's gay. Yeah, it does. Careful. My God, there's no OJ on the table.

Yeah, yeah. They're like, see, didn't put three ice cubes in it. You're going to die. Yeah, it's fascinating. And then you just spiral from there. That's all you do it. And then you get someone on board. And once you have someone on board with your thought process,

the whole place is falling down. It's like, guys, look in that quick. We have to go over here. We have to go see that. Like, see this extra camera there. See that camera is pointing towards the toilet. Someone must have been in there hooking up. Like, it was so.

crazy. Yeah. But it's fun. It is fun. Like, I think it's fun. It seems like, well, actually, let me not put words in your mouth. Okay. What do you think allowed you then to thrive in that environment? I think the thing that allowed me to thrive is I just, life is fun. And like, I just have that mentality of like, okay, like this isn't like that, it's like a crazy holiday, you know? Like, I get to go and have fun and get drunk and hook out with people and whatever else like sure it's all on camera but then um i don't know i just never really overanalyze anything like i'd just be like okay cool like we're here to make a really good show but also like i'm a fun guy like i'm not gonna sit there and stress if someone's shoelaces a different color or if there's a new pop part or like this is

going on like i'll just be like all right like i'm just gonna be fun here and enjoy it and that was thing is because my goal is like make my friends laugh yeah it seems like you stayed with that goal that's the whole only thing yeah it's like I just gonna make my people happy what do you think would most shock people especially about too hot to handle from behind the scenes I think how many people were actually having sex so do you know the show at all or yeah but but for anyone who doesn't okay yeah so the the premise the show is they have a bunch of horny people and if you kiss super every show I guess yeah you know every yeah

You kiss spoon, make out have sex, do anything, you lose money off the prize fund, and there's $100,000 up for grabs. And yeah, anytime someone does that stuff, it loses money off the price fund. So now all the new seasons have toward the handle, it's people try and kiss and have sex right away to get this great time. Yeah. I think whenever you have a second, third, fourth series of the show, it's almost never as good as the first because everyone is trying to go back and replicate what they saw. Here's my idea. This is what I told them. And obviously didn't go anywhere.

I said, if someone has sex, you should delete their Instagram. Oh, damn. That means something. Dude, I shackled, chain, everything, literally, every lock around me, duct tape, everything. I'm like, literally, I'll be up in a tree. You're right? I'm not even talking to anyone. And that's what I said.

I said, look, if you, that would be a good kerb ball, but it'd have to be like a live show, like Love Island or some shit. It's like, oh, look how many followers you got now. Yeah. Well, if you mess this challenge up, it's going to get deleted or, like, banned for a week. When you went to Too Hot to Handle, according to my little research, you had about 140,000 followers. Did you have the most when you went in? Yeah.

And psychologically, though, take me to the mind of Harry, okay? So psychologically, what does that do, having the most followers? I just wanted the social proof. I wanted because on the show, I wanted, like, people. I wanted my name also to be easily searchable. You know, if you have more followers, you're going to be easy, you type in Harry. Obviously, Harry Styles and whatever else. I wasn't really on the list.

I'm like, I want to be easily searchable. That was the goal. Like, I wanted the social proof and I wanted to be easier to find. Wow, smart, man. You know what? The other thing too is, do you consider yourself a smart guy? Sometimes it's not in my daily life. No, seriously.

Yeah, I think so. Yeah, I think so. Yeah. Yeah. Because I think also a lot of, there's this notion, I think whenever you see someone do extremely well from reality TV, 99.9% of the times they're brilliant. And you may look at them and say, oh, well, look at what they're doing. No, it's what they're doing behind. It's everything that you just mentioned.

Yeah. It's putting yourself in a position so that you'll be searchable so that this will boost. And then the result, too, was you walked away with, was it like 2.4 million followers? followers? Four and a half. Oh. You're like, hey, shut the fuck up. You're like, sit down, little man.

Hey, never get that wrong again, brother. I'm fucking, I'm done. I'm leaving. Yeah, five on TikTok, but all good. I'm not counting. Yeah, I think there's what, like, maybe 500,000 on Snapchat too, but whatever. Whatever. A couple hundred thousand on Facebook.

No one's counting any of that. Nothing. I think the 11 million or 12 million total. But that was just, someone told me that. Anyway, what was the question? I know, that was... All right, so you definitely... It's day one.

We still go work to do. And if you want to hear the full, unfiltered stories from today's guest, you can check them out on the We Need to Talk page. Drop a like, leave a comment, and hit subscribe. See you next week. Hey, y'all, it's Kelly Clarkson with Wayfair. Ever order furniture online and wonder what if? Like, what if it doesn't hold up?

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